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[0:02] Tori Bullard: You're listening to Stage Door Podcast, the podcast celebrating theatre and creativity from on stage mishaps to career-defining moments.

[0:12] Eliza Gunther: Hosted by Thespians, myself, Tori, and co-host Eliza.

[0:15] Tori Bullard: Fortnightly, we will bring you industry professional guests, deep dives and more.

[0:22] Eliza Gunther: Greetings and salutations and welcome back to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:27] Tori Bullard: This week we find ourselves staring down the barrel of another incredible deep dive into a musical chosen by you, our audience.

[0:34] Eliza Gunther: And as always, we are joined by our semi-irregular co-host, Gareth Isaac.

[0:39] Gareth Isaac: Hello, ladies, thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.

[0:43] Tori Bullard: But before we get started, we would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Iora Nation and the Tabal people of Yeguera, the traditional custodians of this land on which we work, live, and record, and recognize their continuing connection to land, water, and community.

[1:00] Eliza Gunther: We pay respect to elders past and present.

[1:04] Tori Bullard: So how is Mary Poppins?

[1:06] Gareth Isaac: Mary Poppins is going so well. The Sydney season's doing really nicely, and we're ready for a Brisbane season kicking off October 22nd.

[1:20] Eliza Gunther: I'm doing the thing tonight.

[1:22] Gareth Isaac: Doing the thing.

[1:24] Eliza Gunther: I cannot wait to come and watch it. I'd suggest jumping on really quickly though, because Michael Castle himself told us yesterday we've already sold about 50,000 tickets in Brisbane.

[1:34] Tori Bullard: So get in quick.

[1:36] Eliza Gunther: Okay, I'm gonna have to get in. I'm gonna have to get in, guys. If you're in Brisbane as well, come on. Hit me up. Let's go together.

[1:45] Gareth Isaac: It is so such a delightful show to watch. It was so much fun. And I was like, I'm not gonna cry when she flies away, and Mel and I were just sitting next to each other, gripping each other, like so beautiful.

[2:03] Eliza Gunther: And I've never seen Steph Jones, like I've only seen her in Muriel's Wedding, which is a very different, very different vibe.

[2:12] Gareth Isaac: So it was so amazing seeing her as Mary Poppins because I've never heard her sound like that, and she literally was practically perfect.

[2:21] Tori Bullard: There it is. And on that note, friends, talking about Poppins is all well and good, but we have another show to discuss, I do believe.

[2:29] Eliza Gunther: We do. We really do.

[2:31] Tori Bullard: And if you didn't get it from my really amazing introduction, we are talking about Heathers.

[2:39] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[2:41] Tori Bullard: So our listening audience has spoken and we have responded. The subject of our delightful deep dive this month is a cult classic 2014 musical, Heathers, based on the 1989 film of the same name.

[2:58] Eliza Gunther: Heathers follows the story of Veronica Sawyer, a 17-year-old student at Westerberg High School, as she navigates all the classic high school tropes of popularity, love, revenge, and intense psychopathic murder-suicide epidemics.

[3:12] Tori Bullard: Bringing together writers Lawrence O'Keefe and Kevin Murphy, who brought us Legally Blonde and Reefer Madness, Heathers started as a series of stage readings in 2009 in Los Angeles with Kristen Bell in the lead role of Veronica.

[3:27] Eliza Gunther: Really interesting one. One year later, for two nights only, Heathers was presented as a concert musical in the iconic Joe's Pub in Manhattan, and featured performers such as Annaleigh Ashford, Jeremy Jordan, and Jenna Lee Green, just to name a few.

[3:45] Tori Bullard: The most famous production of Heathers so far was the 2014 Off-Broadway production at New World Stages, featuring Barrett Wilbur Weed as Veronica, Ryan McCartan, and the Tony Award-winning actor Anthony Crivello.

[4:02] Eliza Gunther: The show has had huge success around the globe, with professional performances and tours occurring across the US, England, Australia, and even Brazil.

[4:10] Tori Bullard: But fascinatingly, this show is the only deep dive topic we've covered to date that has never had an official Broadway run, only managing to run Off-Broadway at New World Stages for barely three months in 2014.

[4:23] Eliza Gunther: Despite its short lifespan, Heathers has proved to have a white-knuckle grip on the younger side of the musical theatre fan base, with fan art, amateur and university productions, and viral TikTok trends driving the show to newer heights of adoration.

[4:36] Tori Bullard: That's it. It's so interesting having a show that is literally like a part of pop culture now that literally has never had.

[4:46] Eliza Gunther: Like I've never seen a professional production of Heathers. I've only seen, you know, amateur indie productions.

[4:58] Tori Bullard: But it's I feel like Australia has been in a pandemic of Heathers for a very long time. Like there's at least four to five productions a year. Every society and their mother is doing this show.

[5:10] Eliza Gunther: I personally am sick of the show.

[5:14] Tori Bullard: Like I've been seeing so many productions of it, so many people doing it. And here's my problem with the overabundance of Heathers. Because everyone is doing it, no one has done anything new with it.

[5:29] Eliza Gunther: It feels like every production I've seen since Australia did their production, which was incredible. The Jazz Flowers, Lucy Maunder, Lauren McKenna production, which had a lot of friends of mine in it. Seeing that one, phenomenal, groundbreaking, innovative. Everything after that has been a love letter to the West End or the Off-Broadway version.

[5:50] Tori Bullard: And it's just a bunch of Heathers fans doing Heathers.

[5:54] Eliza Gunther: Which I feel like is a good time to mention, considering how much you hate it, that our amazing Eliza...

[6:04] Tori Bullard: I didn't say I hated it. I'm sick of it.

[6:09] Eliza Gunther: Is gonna be...

[6:13] Tori Bullard: I just got cast as Veronica in the Queensland Conservatorium production of Heathers, which is super, super exciting.

[6:22] Eliza Gunther: It's really cool. I'm a bit like mind-blown to be honest. For those who don't know, the Queensland Conservatorium at Griffith University is one of the leading musical theatre programs in the country at the moment.

[6:36] Tori Bullard: Eliza is studying there, and so to be cast in a leading role in the musical there is a really good get.

[6:44] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I'm pretty stoked, pretty stoked. I get to share the role, which is absolutely thrilling. And I'm really in on that note of innovative theatre, I'm really interested to see what we do that's gonna be different.

[6:59] Tori Bullard: And you know, like I'm definitely not the smallest chick on stage, so I was very... it was a very interesting audition process. I got put up for Heathers Chandler, I got put up for Martha and Veronica.

[7:14] Eliza Gunther: So it was really great. I'm very lucky that we have a lot of body diversity in my group and we are able to play any role and it doesn't really matter.

[7:25] Tori Bullard: I'm very excited to see my gorgeous curvy best friend play this absolute badass of a character. It's gonna be so, so exciting.

[7:38] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I'm really excited to see what you guys do with it because there's nothing that's the only thing that really disappoints me. Like I've seen some productions where they have so much potential and the voices are phenomenal, but they just don't do anything new with it.

[7:52] Tori Bullard: It just feels like, you know, the wonderful people playing Veronica, who nine times out of ten have the most amazing voices, get to like Barrett Wilbur Weed level, and but then they like leave it there.

[8:05] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[8:06] Tori Bullard: And they don't do anything different with it.

[8:08] Eliza Gunther: Well, what I'm really excited about our production is like even already we have had chats like our MD is like, hey, I want you to come up with your own riffs and I want you to like do your own thing. I want you to not be Barrett Wilbur Weed or be Carrie Hope Fletcher. They want us to be our own version of Veronica, and I think for me that's really exciting because as a few of you also know, I've done the role once before, and Tori has seen that one as well, and I think I am excited to try something new and try and be a bit more myself.

[8:45] Tori Bullard: So I'm so excited to see how much you've changed since then. Because I know how much you have changed since then.

[8:50] Eliza Gunther: I have changed.

[8:53] Tori Bullard: Absolutely, yeah.

[8:55] Eliza Gunther: So I'm so excited to see that change. And I think Gareth was sticking his little hand up there before.

[9:00] Gareth Isaac: I was, but then I put it down because I realized I had nothing to say.

[9:04] Eliza Gunther: Oh you're like, Let me speak!

[9:08] Gareth Isaac: I don't know what it was. It's a chaotic recording, my friends, but we are diving in as best as we can.

[9:13] Tori Bullard: So we've talked about our friends, our personal connections with the show. I've mentioned my friends who were in the Australian production. I do have a very brief fun anecdote to share.

[9:24] Eliza Gunther: Lucy Maunder, Australia's own Heathers Chandler, was kind enough to share with me a fun little story about her time on the Australian tour of Heathers.

[9:35] Gareth Isaac: It is a very brief story.

[9:38] Eliza Gunther: She just turned to me one day and said, Oh, you're doing Heathers. Okay, here's my story. I spent most of the show trying not to projectile vomit onto most of the audience because I was heavily pregnant during the entire production.

[9:52] Tori Bullard: Oh my god, stop it.

[9:54] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it was very funny. Yeah, I'm like, whoa! So, yeah, she was like lying on her dressing room floor. The girls were coming in, Lucy, the show's about to go. Are you alright? Yeah, I'm fine. I'm just very ill. And of course, she couldn't tell anyone because the musical theatre industry is a gossip-mongering crowd.

[10:15] Tori Bullard: So yeah, didn't want it to be known she was pregnant just yet.

[10:20] Eliza Gunther: And that was like six-ish years ago, and now little Edie is around talking.

[10:25] Tori Bullard: That's crazy. Have you met Edie?

[10:28] Eliza Gunther: I haven't met Edie personally, but she's come to the show a few times.

[10:32] Tori Bullard: Oh, how cute. I love that.

[10:34] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, little sweet. That is horrible. Could you imagine like being pregnant during that show?

[10:39] Tori Bullard: I couldn't, especially in such a massive role like that, and wanting to vomit.

[10:43] Eliza Gunther: Can't be store. See you later, guys. Like give me a vomit bin.

[10:47] Tori Bullard: Knowing her, she would have gone completely balls to the wall anyway, to the best of her abilities, because she's Lucy Maunder. She's incredible.

[10:53] Eliza Gunther: Thank you. Thanks, Lucy, for giving us that amazing story. How good.

[10:57] Tori Bullard: What a good way to start us off.

[11:00] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I feel like we should jump in to say we've only got so much time to talk, and something that I'm really interested to talk about that I've just seen somebody noted is about the songs and the additions and the cut songs that were in the West End production.

[11:23] Tori Bullard: Because obviously we had the addition of "Never Shut Up Again," "You're Welcome," and "I Say No," I believe those are the three additional songs, and "Blue" was cut out.

[11:34] Eliza Gunther: The reason that "Blue" was cut out is because it kind of pokes fun a little bit at sexual assault in a way where it's not like we're being ironic, like no, it's just kind of poking fun at it.

[11:57] Gareth Isaac: Um, whereas "You're Welcome" really gets the, I guess, the monologue of pointing out in a way that you're like, Yep, that's how it happens. Of like, you know, um, what is they're like talking about how Veronica is dressed and that she should be glad that they want to assault her.

[12:18] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[12:19] Gareth Isaac: Um, and also like Veronica just being like, I was literally thinking about this like last night. How she's saying, Here we are in a park 50 yards from my car, I could climb my tree, I wouldn't get that far. Like, it's awful.

[12:31] Tori Bullard: It is so awful.

[12:36] Gareth Isaac: But it's like, it's one of those songs that you hear in a musical, in my opinion, where you're like, yep, it's there for a reason.

[12:43] Eliza Gunther: Oh, a hundred percent. I think that the addition was so needed because although like some people don't love the rapping, and do am I keen to do a bit of a rap? I'm not really sure, but um, I've never really rapped before.

[12:59] Gareth Isaac: But um, I think it was really needed because in "Blue," Veronica just stood there. Like she didn't actually do anything, and there was no conversation, it was just kind of like this is a funny song. Whereas, and it was kind of like a little bit more happy, "Blue" was a little bit more, let's have a sing along, yeah, everyone's loving this.

[13:21] Tori Bullard: But I think "You're Welcome" actually makes the audience think and also gives that dynamic of what actually does happen in situations like this. So it, I think they were close with "Blue," but they kind of found more what they were looking for with "You're Welcome."

[13:39] Gareth Isaac: It makes the characters less likable as well, which is I think important.

[13:43] Eliza Gunther: Exactly. And you've both hit the nail on the head with it. O'Keefe and Murphy have both gone on record to say that "Blue," with the benefit of hindsight, not really an optimal song choice.

[13:46] Tori Bullard: So they rewrote it into "You're Welcome" and slapped that in there for the West End debut and every following production. So "Blue" is still available in like certain versions of the show, but for the most part, "You're Welcome" is the accepted song choice, particularly in the high school and amateur versions, which...

[14:15] Gareth Isaac: Which can we talk about the high school version of Heathers?

[14:20] Tori Bullard: I, for those who don't really know the show, it is heavily dark when it comes to thematics. Like we are looking at sexual assault, we're looking at murder, we're looking at however many other issues. It's not exactly the light and fluffy show you expect from a high school.

[14:41] Eliza Gunther: Similar when people do Grease and forget all about that pregnancy sub-story.

[14:45] Tori Bullard: And yet they've just created a version of the show in which every swear is removed, a lot of the overtones of the show, like the heavy thematics, are just removed entirely, and the song "Big Fun" doesn't exist.

[15:01] Gareth Isaac: Wait, what's the point of the show then?

[15:04] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, exactly. When they censor shows like that, I'm like, there's no, there's actually just pick a different show. Like if you're worrying about it legitimately.

[15:12] Tori Bullard: Correct. At that point, it's just suits.

[15:14] Eliza Gunther: It's just suits and croquet mallets.

[15:16] Tori Bullard: Yeah, at that point, like, yeah, mate, maybe it's not the ideal show for a high school. Maybe if it was like a senior high school or something like that, but maybe then it's not the ideal show for your high school. Pick something else.

[15:30] Gareth Isaac: There are so many other shows that you can do that you don't have to censor.

[15:35] Eliza Gunther: Right? I was just gonna say that I think it's really weird that they do a show like this just because like I know the amount of, like with our production now, like, which is something that doesn't usually happen. Like, like we're gonna have a um a coordinator, what's it called?

[15:52] Gareth Isaac: Um, Intimacy coordinator?

[15:53] Eliza Gunther: Int, yeah, intimacy coordinator. We have a mental health workshop, we have all this stuff because all of the, like, even then the story is still the same, and for a lot of young people, that story is their story currently, so it's not like they can really remove themselves from these characters, and I just don't think it necessarily is probably healthy for high schoolers to be doing a show like this with like where they're at in brain development and everything.

[16:20] Tori Bullard: I'm like, oh, I don't necessarily think that these schools are putting those things in place, so I don't necessarily think this is a good thing for high schools to have.

[16:29] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, no, it's definitely not, um, I think the ideal show for schools to have. However, I'm very much of the opinion that kids will learn at some point in time, whether they do it safely or not is kind of dependent.

[16:44] Eliza Gunther: It's like literally working at the bookshop. We have books like by Colleen Hoover that feature like that, um, the "After" series that feature very toxic relationships that I just, I get so grumpy at work sometimes, and I'm like, I don't want to sell you this book because I don't want you reading this stuff and idealizing these relationships, but also I have this hope that maybe they'll read it and understand that that's not, you know, the ideal relationship.

[17:09] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, that is the most valid point that I think we can bring up about a high school version of a musical like this. It is the concept of safety and the idea of choice of when we are exposed to these ideas.

[17:21] Eliza Gunther: In high school, I don't know about you guys, it was not the safest learning environment when it came to being a theatre kid. Like, you got thrown all these delightful themes off just the cuff.

[17:34] Gareth Isaac: Like Australian theatre looking at "The Removalists," "Summer of the 17th Doll." This is really showing my age now of when I did the HSC. But all these Australian plays focusing on domestic violence, toxic masculinity, all that delightful stuff that frankly needed to be talked about, but a lot of students were not ready to hear about.

[17:55] Eliza Gunther: So especially surrounded in my case by a bunch of meat-headed guys who are like, oh, this is hilarious. Like to quote one of them, oh yeah, just knock a woman about.

[18:07] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, awful.

[18:08] Eliza Gunther: Awful, awful, awful. So I would hope that yeah, men. At some point, the high school level of maturity may reach a stage where you can do a full production of Heathers, but don't bother doing the watered down one when the themes are just gonna be danced around and made light of.

[18:27] Tori Bullard: Yeah, I feel like there's no point.

[18:29] Gareth Isaac: Um, and I guess moving away from that, talking about things like "Never Shut Up Again" and "I Say No." I've heard multiple opinions.

[18:37] Gareth Isaac: I really love "I Say No," um, because I feel like it really gives Veronica the moment to like she has her stand in like I feel like a bit more of a dialogue way, but I feel like this is actually her kind of accepting also the fact that she has participated in these things, and she also made the bad choices.

[18:55] Gareth Isaac: Now they're not as bad as what Jade and they're not as extreme as what JD did, but she still went along with the idea of let's pretend to hurt people, which is still is not a particularly moral thing.

[19:05] Gareth Isaac: But I'm very curious to hear what you guys think about "Never Shut Up Again." I've heard many, many different opinions about the addition of this song.

[19:16] Eliza Gunther: Oh, well, on both of them, really, I would say, like, "I Say No," exactly what you said, which most people don't have the opinion on.

[19:26] Gareth Isaac: But honestly, I think without this song, her character arc does not is not satisfying enough for the audience. So I love that addition because it's actually like, oh, she is like she's got solos where she sings, but she sings about everyone else.

[19:42] Eliza Gunther: Like she sings about, you know, her high school, or she'll sing about like, oh, let's have sex. Like, she's very, it's like all very action-based, other than "17."

[19:51] Gareth Isaac: Um, so I really love it because I think it gets some plot holes and slash just like character development in a good way. Although, like, really does she have to sing another very high song? No, but maybe I'll be.

[20:05] Eliza Gunther: Is that just a you though? Because you don't want to have to sing it.

[20:09] Gareth Isaac: And my like, mm, but then act two also she doesn't actually sing a lot in act two, so it's probably fine.

[20:15] Eliza Gunther: Um, but "Never Shut Up Again." I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. I love a good quick change, I love the rip, and I'm like, ooh, like the ooh, bitch, the smash song. I'm like, yes.

[20:28] Gareth Isaac: Um, it's a bit of a vibe, but yeah, I don't know if I have anything intellectual to say other than I really dig it and I'm really excited about the quick change in our production. I'm hoping it will be good.

[20:41] Eliza Gunther: I mean, just just quickly, what a mood it resonated with me when you said I have nothing intellectual to say, because I'm dumb as a bag of rocks today.

[20:49] Gareth Isaac: But "I Say No" is great. It is the 11 o'clock number in which the character finally realizes the quote unquote era of her ways. She's been complicit in all these terrible behaviours.

[20:59] Eliza Gunther: I'm just reiterating everything that Tori has said so far. It was a necessary song, in which a necessary song was needed in the original production, but just didn't eventuate.

[21:10] Gareth Isaac: "Never Shut Up Again," I think is a strong addition and a weak addition, and here are my arguments. Strong addition. Because oh, Heathers Duke is the only Heathers that does not get her own song until this version.

[21:24] Eliza Gunther: And I think it's a waste of a character, particularly one that becomes a secondary antagonist in the second act to have not have a song at that point.

[21:32] Gareth Isaac: This is a failing on the parts of the writer that they've rectified for the West End edition. But on that note, it does feel like it's just a song for a character that didn't have a song before.

[21:47] Eliza Gunther: I feel like it's not really saying anything that the original line didn't say, and it was just her screaming, I will never shut up again. Like that gets the point across just as well.

[21:58] Gareth Isaac: I don't think it really furthers or cements anything. I think it's a song that I think sits really well in the vibe of the show and like the, you know, the 80s, um, you know, really, uh, over-the-top, um, heightened 80s kind of sense, which is something else that we might talk about in the contrast between the film and the show.

[22:22] Eliza Gunther: Um, yes.

[22:24] Gareth Isaac: But I love it. Um, I think that I, it's one of those songs in the show where I don't necessarily love it because I'm like, mmm, the meaning and all the like the little like theatre taste buds are being pleased.

[22:39] Eliza Gunther: It's kind of just my, it's just a song that scratches my brain, and I'm like, mmm, I like the sound of this. This is thoroughly enjoyable to listen to, and it's like a nice little fun, like poppy moment, and I do love how over the top the song is because it feels like this character has finally had her moment to like scream and shout and let it all out.

[22:58] Gareth Isaac: Um, and I really enjoy that for that fact of yes, it was, I feel like a travesty to not have a song previously for this character that is literally causes so many issues after Heathers Chandler dies.

[23:16] Eliza Gunther: Like she causes, spoiler warning, if you don't know the show, Heathers Chandler dies. Um, if you don't, like I feel like she causes so many issues.

[23:25] Gareth Isaac: How can she not? She's as bad as Heathers Chandler.

[23:28] Eliza Gunther: How can she not get her own song? So I'm glad that she finally did get her own song.

[23:32] Gareth Isaac: And yes, that quick change makes me so happy.

[23:35] Eliza Gunther: Crispy. I think like the thing is that she's worse than Heathers Chandler.

[23:40] Gareth Isaac: Like, in a lot of ways, she is a lot worse. She manipulates everyone, and this is her moment. But only not only that, but just in general, with where the story is at that point, um, it goes from kind of a little bit more I'd say lower stakes just before this, and they have to bring it to some sort of heightened state where they have something happen because straight after this is when they go into the reprise for "You're Welcome," and that's when she gets completely blasted by everyone saying that she um, you know, had sex with these people and it wasn't true. And I think in the original production, that was not really done, like it wasn't written in a way that really made you the audience or even the like the person playing it, even feel like that was a big deal.

But in this one, I will say, going from "Never Shut Up Again" straight into that, it's so heightened that it actually lands what they were trying to do with the original musical in terms of like that shaming that happens in high school around this stuff. And it wasn't just like, oh, that's funny, they're singing blue, and oh she's just a bit upset. It was like, oh shit, now we're actually listening to the lyrics, and really like that's horrible, and they kind of do this mash. I think it's a mash of "Never Shut Up Again" and "You're Welcome," but it kind of goes into each other or something. So I think that was a really fantastic addition, to be honest.

[25:07] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I do. I agree. Um, and yes, they it is, I think it is a mash of "You're Welcome" and "Never Shut Up Again." Um because I can hear it in my head. Um I couldn't produce it from my mouth, but I can hear it in my head. Um, but talking about shaming, I'm gonna have a cheeky little segue um about Carrie Hope Fletcher, who we all know is one of my favourite humans on the face of the earth.

[25:32] Gareth Isaac: I've never heard you mention her name before.

[25:34] Eliza Gunther: What, never? Um she's one of my favourite humans on the face of the earth, she's an author, she's a YouTuber, and most of all, she is a phenomenal performer on the West End. Um, so she played Veronica, she debuted Veronica in the UK. Um, and the amount of fucking backlash that she got for so many things, but mainly was when they announced the cast, and people was like, she's not skinny. And I'm like, where the fuck does it say that Veronica is skinny? I'm sorry, give me the character breakdown and show me where it says her weight, please. Um, which is insane because she is such a phenomenal performer. She has an insane voice. Um, and people always get this thing where they attach to the first person that they heard perform it, which for 99% of people is Barrett Wilbur Weed.

And Barrett Wilbur Weed has a very, her voice is her voice. It is very much you know her voice when you hear it. Um and people also know like her riffs. They know how she did certain things and so when anyone else does it differently, they're like, um that's incorrect. And I'm like, actually it's not written into the score. So technically it's not incorrect. It's a character. It says ad lib here.

[26:48] Gareth Isaac: Yes. Precisely.

[26:50] Eliza Gunther: And I just think that's almost like it's art or something. What self-expression is open to interpretation. Crazy. I just think it's absolutely insane the amount of backlash that she got for that role. And I feel like because of, well because of the production, because of everyone in this production, but I think especially because of Carrie Hope Fletcher, this role is open to so many people now. And also it is still bloody well running at the Other Palace.

[27:22] Gareth Isaac: Heathers is still running.

[27:24] Eliza Gunther: It's not a show that I can ever imagine getting a very long, it feels like much more of a boutique kind of run that you would do of a show where it would be like a maximum a couple of months run. And it's still going.

[27:36] Gareth Isaac: A hundred percent I couldn't agree with you more about this because I will admit when I first listened to it I was in the thrust of doing it and listening to Barrett Wilbur Weed and being like, oh I really don't like her version. I mean there were obviously accent issues with that production with a couple of numbers a couple of um things which I'm sure they sorted out. But um I recently have listened to that one and stopped listening to, I mean I've stopped listening to all of them now but before I was listening to the UK one and I watched them. I watched two productions of the West End version. One person tried to be like Barrett Wilbur Weed and I didn't like it. And I watched Carrie Hope Fletcher's and she was actually quite truthful to the text and her singing was true to her and it was her own version of Veronica and I loved it.

I thought it was great. I thought she sounded great and I thought the recordings all sounded incredible. I think it's when you remove yourself from being so attached to one thing you can actually appreciate something else and actually listen to it properly and not just like go, oh it's different so it's not as good. No, it's just different and that's someone else's version of it.

[28:54] Eliza Gunther: Yeah. And I think that that's part of the thing is that people need to detach from it and be aware that it is literally an art form and that it is people taking this character and making it their own like people commenting on like the way that different um people that do Heathers Chandler or Veronica and how they do the riffs or things like that. I'm like you've also gotta be aware that there's no point in me trying to do that, you know, the ending of "Dead Girl Walking" where she like hits that top note and it's like such a screlt moment. There's no point me trying to do that because I can't do that. So I'm gonna do my own thing with it. There's no point in me doing something that is also gonna sound bad and it's possibly gonna hurt me.

Like when I have other things that I can do that are still really strong and just as good choices just because I'm not doing exactly the same as what Barrett Wilbur Weed does. Same as nobody needs to carry um copy what Carrie Hope Fletcher does because every time that you do a show, you should be making it your own version. Keeping in mind obviously the text. So people need to stop gatekeeping.

[30:00] Gareth Isaac: Yeah. Performers and being like, well, you didn't do it like Barrett Wilbur Weed. And it's like, well, I'm not Barrett Wilbur Weed, therefore I'm not gonna do it like her. Because it's what's I don't I don't give two shits about seeing a show that the person might be absolutely phenomenal, but if they do it the exact same way, I'm like, well, I've seen it. I'm not interested in seeing that again.

[30:17] Eliza Gunther: Exactly. And that I think brings into context the fandom of Heathers. I mentioned earlier how tired I was of seeing productions that are just fans of Heathers doing Heathers and doing the same sort of thing over and over. I had no idea about the Carrie Hope Fletcher scenario because I don't know if that's just me being detached from drama but or just being completely ignorant. Um I had no idea that her rendition of Veronica was so controversial. So hearing that Heathers fans suddenly wanted one production and one production only, and uh anyone who dared veer away from it was considered a pariah. This now does not surprise me that we're seeing so many cookie cutter productions.

[31:06] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly why. Context is king. The fan base is honestly kind of scary. Like the and it's what makes me legitimately reconsider if I audition for this production of Heathers or not. That's probably the scariest part about doing Heathers, I think, because and I've learned how to stop this talk because you have to stop the talk because you can't enable it. But it's that there's a lot of pressure, and it's like, oh well, if you're not as good as the as Barrett Wilbur Weed, then oh, she was awful because she didn't do it the same, and I think that's what plays into what you're saying, Gareth about why we get so many cookie cutter productions. But you have to just go, you know what?

Like I'm not gonna feed into this and I'm gonna do my own thing and I'm gonna be my own person. And I'm not gonna put pressure on myself. It's a role like any other role. Why are we putting so much pressure on ourselves with this specific production that it has to be just above and beyond and even more incredible. I mean it didn't even go to Broadway.

[32:07] Eliza Gunther: It didn't go to Broadway.

[32:09] Gareth Isaac: Didn't go to Broadway. For instance. It's like, oh wow you're doing Wicked, how cool. And it's like, oh why do we put so much pressure on this pr on um this specific um show and I'm sure it's just because it has a lot of massive vocals that is can be really hard to pull off and so people love some people love to come and critique people or like find, you know, it's like oh they're on the edge of the seats. Will they make it? Will they hit the notes? Will they not? Um so yeah that definitely plays into the fandom a bit but on the opposite side the fandom are also amazing and supportive and wow the Other Palace has kept Heathers running for so long because of the fan base because young people are in theatre and coming to see theatre and that's what's exciting about the fan base for this show because they will go and watch a production of Heathers even if they like, you know, have twenty bucks in their account.

They will they will go and support it. And most of the time like theatre is a lot of the time reliant on an older demographic and a lot of um you know you know from 50, 50 to eighty year olds is usually the target market for a lot of shows because they get they they actually go and enjoy theatre. So it's really refreshing to see something that gets young people into theatre.

[33:32] Eliza Gunther: Definitely Australian audiences, that's what they target towards.

[33:35] Gareth Isaac: Which is so it's so frustrating, and I'm not even gonna get into that.

[33:42] Eliza Gunther: Well, friends, uh let's have a bit of a palette cleanser, shall we? We're getting into some heady territory. How does it feel about a game?

[33:49] Gareth Isaac: I'm excited.

[33:52] Eliza Gunther: Alright, so this is just gonna be your basic first five seconds of a song challenge. I'm sure there's a classier name for those, but I don't have one because I'm running with three brain cells.

[34:06] Gareth Isaac: I love it. I'm excited.

[34:07] Eliza Gunther: Oh my gosh. I'm just gonna play. Uh yeah, we'll go, we'll go one at a time, one at a time. Let's begin with Eliza.

[34:17] Eliza Gunther: Okay. And keep in mind this is Heathers the musical from the West End.

[34:22] Gareth Isaac: Okay, cool.

[34:24] Eliza Gunther: Uh that's all you get.

[34:35] Gareth Isaac: That was a long five seconds. Uh that's my l uh. It's my love is God.

[34:41] Eliza Gunther: Is that right? Is that what it says in this one?

[34:45] Gareth Isaac: No, oh it's um well, it's the one you've got one word wrong.

[34:52] Eliza Gunther: Our love is God.

[34:54] Gareth Isaac: There it is.

[34:55] Eliza Gunther: Thank you.

[34:55] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, sorry, I was like, wait, what am I gonna do? I was being I was being generous with that one because it is just piano stings, but we got there eventually.

[35:04] Eliza Gunther: Love it. I mean, I knew it. Alright.

[35:05] Gareth Isaac: Uh, Tori, your turn.

[35:09] Tori Bullard: Okay.

[35:10] Gareth Isaac: Think.

[35:12] Tori Bullard: Long and short.

[35:13] Gareth Isaac: Conjure up in your mind.

[35:14] Tori Bullard: What would Heathers say?

[35:16] Gareth Isaac: We're done.

[35:17] Tori Bullard: Oh my god. Now I've got to think of the believe it or not.

[35:21] Gareth Isaac: She knew about fear.

[35:24] Tori Bullard: Um, what is the song called?

[35:27] Gareth Isaac: Is the question.

[35:28] Eliza Gunther: And you got a five.

[35:29] Gareth Isaac: A four.

[35:30] Eliza Gunther: Oh no!

[35:31] Gareth Isaac: Time limits!

[35:33] Eliza Gunther: Two one.

[35:34] Gareth Isaac: No, I'm not gonna do that. That is the me inside of me.

[35:37] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, okay. But it's actually two different songs in the score, which is really interesting.

[35:44] Gareth Isaac: Are you using reference material to cheat?

[35:47] Eliza Gunther: Okay. It is time for Eliza once more.

[35:53] Gareth Isaac: Let's see.

[36:02] Eliza Gunther: Uh meant to be yours.

[36:04] Gareth Isaac: Meant to be yours, correct. Also, just a quick sidebar. TikTok went absolutely feral for that song.

[36:13] Eliza Gunther: They did.

[36:14] Gareth Isaac: They did indeed. Or Jamie Muscato?

[36:17] Eliza Gunther: Must loved that Jamie Muscato. They went absolutely feral for that.

[36:23] Gareth Isaac: Alright, Eliza with a 2-0 lead.

[36:26] Eliza Gunther: Wow. Thanks for pointing that out. Someone has to be keeping scale.

[36:32] Gareth Isaac: No, I didn't get me inside of me because I got given a countdown.

[36:36] Eliza Gunther: Oh.

[36:38] Gareth Isaac: Wow, cruel.

[36:39] Eliza Gunther: You are I've done the show twice. If you didn't want me to run a mean game, you shouldn't let me run the game at all.

[36:47] Gareth Isaac: Okay, okay, true, true, true. Okay, I'm ready.

[36:49] Eliza Gunther: Alright, Tori.

[36:52] Tori Bullard: Well, that's been fun.

[36:55] Eliza Gunther: There it is.

[37:01] Gareth Isaac: Oh, what an opening. Fantastic.

[37:04] Eliza Gunther: Okay. Um let's make this last one a buzz in. That's how we usually do it. We do two each, then a buzz in for two points. Final one. We'll see if we can tie it up. If not, Eliza's gonna win.

[37:17] Gareth Isaac: You wait just a minute, Paul.

[37:20] Eliza Gunther: This ignorant, hateful talk like yours that makes it.

[37:24] Gareth Isaac: Three, two, one.

[37:27] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god.

[37:31] Gareth Isaac: All I got on my end was just this shriek.

[37:35] Eliza Gunther: This unintelligible shriek from both of you.

[37:39] Gareth Isaac: Um I think it was me.

[37:48] Eliza Gunther: I I okay, again, Heathers's fandom coming for me, because I'm terrified to not give it to either of you.

[37:57] Gareth Isaac: I live in the same city as you. I know where you live.

[37:59] Eliza Gunther: You know, you don't.

[38:03] Gareth Isaac: Yes, I do.

[38:03] Eliza Gunther: Oh god, you do.

[38:08] Gareth Isaac: You know what? I'll just let you both say it together. That way you both win.

[38:11] Eliza Gunther: Actually, no, that wouldn't mean I would win.

[38:15] Gareth Isaac: No.

[38:19] Eliza Gunther: We're gonna call it a tie.

[38:20] Gareth Isaac: No, we'll talk we'll call it a tie. What was the song?

[38:25] Eliza Gunther: My dead gay.

[38:29] Gareth Isaac: I'm gonna give you another go at that. Let's get it clean. What was the song?

[38:35] Eliza Gunther: My dead gay son.

[38:39] Gareth Isaac: Nope, leave it all in. Fuck it.

[38:44] Eliza Gunther: Well, it's too good. We're actually that was hilarious. And thank you so much for organizing the game as per usual, Gareth.

[38:52] Gareth Isaac: You're so welcome. I wish for nothing but death.

[38:55] Eliza Gunther: We are actually coming to the end of our deep dive. Um what are some thoughts that we have to kind of end off this deep dive? Or any like points that we'd like really want to make?

[39:10] Gareth Isaac: I think the let on the topic of the movie versus the musical, the movie really didn't hit it off, I think, because it was so like it was during the time when it was all the um, you know, uh 17 candles, what's it called?

[39:24] Eliza Gunther: Sixteen candles.

[39:25] Gareth Isaac: Sixteen candles. The Breakfast Club and all of these um these movies that were absolutely romanticizing teenage life in the 80s, and this this movie didn't do that, and that's why it was it A, that's probably why it became a cult classic, but also that was why they did it. They didn't want to be, they wanted to completely smack down all of this romanticizing of being a teenager and show what it was like to be a teenager. Um, and it is really interesting a lot of the changes they made from the movie. I personally like I I like the movie for its cult classic effect, but I do feel like the musical does a much better job of the storyline, and I feel a lot more for the characters. Um, but I think it was a really important movie for its time because that's what its intention was was to break down all of these um stereotypes that life was really great for all Americans, you know, when you're in American schools and it's like the Breakfast Club and you can date the you know date the bad boy or you know all those things.

This shows you what happens if we if you date the bad boy I think this is just a nice um a nice um obviously a um heightened view of where you have all of these really romanticized like this is what it's like to be a 16 year old in the 80s in America this goes actually it kind of sucked uh to a obviously a much heightened extent but it's like high school will always let's be honest high school will always suck high school will never be romanticized no matter how much we want it to be.

[40:35] Eliza Gunther: I will say uh movie versus musical obviously the differences are there the movie exists as a deconstruction of those high school tropes and this inversion of the norm. However, we are missing one crucial piece of Heathers's media the 2018 Paramount television series rebooting the movie.

[41:30] Gareth Isaac: Oh god I've erased this from my memory.

[41:34] Eliza Gunther: I mean it is currently sitting at 27% on Rotten Tomatoes so that should give you some idea of the effect that this series had. They attempted indeed to invert the high school trope they made the victims quote unquote the bullies in which Heathers Duke is a gender fluid human Heathers McNamara is a biracial lesbian who then has an affair with a male staff member and is outed and becomes a social pariah. It is made out very similarly, like you said, of saying, hey, what happens if the inverse is true and the cool kids are actually really awful and murderous and psychopathic? And but in this case, it's what if the victims were actually the bullies and it was horrendous, awful, terrible, and burn it to the ground.

[42:22] Gareth Isaac: Watched one episode and was like, I'm good.

[42:26] Eliza Gunther: I know it kind of feels like one of those shows where and I hate when shows of any capacity, whether it be theatre, movie, TV shows, where they kind of go, ooh, let's let's make it woke, you guys. Let's add all these things and we're gonna make it woke and cool. Um, and that's the whole reason why they did it. It doesn't feel like they did it because these are the characters that we have written. You know, it felt like it was like we're doing this because this is the currently the thing that is a trendy thing to do, and therefore the kids are gonna like it.

[42:57] Gareth Isaac: Exactly. I mean, can we talk about Riverdale's produ uh uh episode of Heathers?

[43:02] Eliza Gunther: I I was just I I couldn't get through it.

[43:06] Gareth Isaac: I'm not any of the any of Riverdale's musical episodes that just don't, just don't.

[43:16] Eliza Gunther: But on like a separate, I guess, separate topic but same topic, um, one thing we didn't really mention is also the iconic costuming of this show. Something that was really important with this show is how different the Heathers look, and that that was uniquely made through this, um through at the time, obviously 70s shoulder pads, all that power suit, but the fact that they do wear they're showing their professionalism and establishing like a really unique look that no one else in the in the school has but them without having this slut reputation. So it's not that they're wearing slutty clothes and being like popular because of that, they have a unique style and show, and I guess like kind of in the movie, um Heathers Chandler is very preppy, very uh she's got a clipboard and she's asking the um the questions.

So it's it's a really interesting way that they actually created this popular group through also costuming of that and how unique that is to this musical. It's not like mean girls where we're in short dresses, like yes, there is a little bit of like a short skirt moment, but it's it is very different, like their tits aren't out, you know. They've made it via a unique costuming choice rather than which makes people look at you, which I think is what all shows do, but they do it to different extents, but it's not like I'm the popular girl because I'm going to you know do X, Y, and Z to make it that way. Um people know who they are because of how they act and how they how they dress.

[44:56] Gareth Isaac: Um do we um I mean I'm this has been fantastic. I've loved this, I've loved this little chat. We've actually not had disagreeing opinions for once, except for the except for maybe one.

[45:11] Eliza Gunther: Shop me, and that was me.

[45:12] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, that was you know, shock me, shock me, shock me. I'm the one with the dissenting opinion.

[45:17] Eliza Gunther: I know correct. I love it though. It's it makes it interesting, and at least we have um, you know, other people might have the same opinion. So it is very like I I think we've covered a fair range of bases. I will leave us on one final fun fact: the director of Heathers in every incarnation, off Broadway uh and West End, and all the workshops, Andy Fickman. Not only is he the award-winning director of Heathers, he is also the director of Paul Blart Molkop 2.

[45:47] Gareth Isaac: That's why that was in there.

[45:50] Eliza Gunther: Yeah. That's all. That was like such a sensational um box office Oscar award.

[45:57] Gareth Isaac: Till death do us blunt, baby! Let's go!

[46:00] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god. Well, on that note, I feel like we're gonna end the episode there. This has been absolutely delightful. We will be having one final deep dive for the year, which I will put up a poll shortly to decide upon, unless we wish to decide upon that ourselves. And obviously, but you guys should organise to get tickets to see Heathers at the Queensland Con.

[46:25] Gareth Isaac: I agree. Come and get tickets, guys, if you want to come and see the show.

[46:31] Eliza Gunther: We're on from the 15th to the 19th of November. I'll be on every second show. I'm not really sure which shows yet. And um you can find tickets at the Queensland Conservatorium.com.au if you wanna come and check it out and come see a bit of a con show if you're in Bris Vegas. We'll pop a little link down in the description of this episode.

[46:52] Gareth Isaac: Um thank you all for being here. Thank you, Eliza, thank you, Gareth, thank you, Tim Oscar. Thank you, Tori.

[46:58] Eliza Gunther: Um like stuff you shouldn't have. Um that's that's it for today's episode. So thank you so so much for being here. Um and until next time, stay happy, healthy, and safe, and we will see you then.

[47:11] All: Bye!