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[0:02] Tori Bullard: You're listening to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:05] Eliza Gunther: The podcast celebrating theatre and creativity from onstage mishaps to career defining moments.

[0:11] Tori Bullard: Hosted by Thespians, myself, Tori, and co-host Eliza.

[0:15] Eliza Gunther: Fortnightly, we will bring you industry professional guests, deep dives and more.

[0:21] Tori Bullard: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:25] Eliza Gunther: We are back today, joined by our lovely third podcast member, Gareth, for another deep dive.

[0:32] Tori Bullard: But before we get started, though, we would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eero Nation and the Tabal people of UGERA, the traditional custodians of this land on which we work, live and record, and recognize their continuing connection to land, water, and community.

[0:46] Eliza Gunther: We pay respect to elders past, present, and emerging.

[0:50] Tori Bullard: Today's deep dive has been frequently requested by our audience, and we're finally tackling it.

[0:56] Eliza Gunther: So let's kick off 2022 off with a look at the Broadway smash hit Mean Girls.

[1:03] Tori Bullard: Based on the 2004 film written by, of course, the one and only Tina Fey.

[1:18] Eliza Gunther: And the social qualms and pitfalls she finds herself in.

[1:22] Tori Bullard: Surrounded by people of her own age for the first time and knowing nothing about the ins and outs of being cool, Katie quickly finds herself torn between two friend groups.

[1:32] Eliza Gunther: Surrounded by people her own age for the first time and knowing nothing about the ins and outs of being cool, Katie quickly finds herself torn between two friend groups, social misfits, Janice and Damien, and the unattainable popularity that is the Plastics.

[1:48] Tori Bullard: Karen, Gretchen, and Regina George.

[1:52] Eliza Gunther: Navigating popularity, friendship, love, and maths, Katie learns quickly that the wild safari that is a Chicago high school is just as wild and dangerous as anything she ever saw in Kenya.

[2:02] Tori Bullard: Beginning development in 2013, the musical officially premiered on Broadway in 2017, and played its final performance in 2020 due to the COVID pandemic.

[2:11] Eliza Gunther: The musical combines book by Tina Fey, music by Jeff Richmond, lyrics by Nell Benjamin, and direction and choreography by Casey Nicholaw.

[2:19] Tori Bullard: The show was nominated for a total of 12 awards at the 2018 Tonys, but did not manage to win any, being beaten in most categories by The Band's Visit, and in one by SpongeBob.

[2:29] Eliza Gunther: Really?

[2:29] Tori Bullard: Didn't realise SpongeBob.

[2:31] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[2:31] Tori Bullard: Go SpongeBob.

[2:32] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, SpongeBob was up for a bunch of Tonys that year.

[2:35] Tori Bullard: It was them, Frozen, uh the uh revival of Carousel.

[2:40] Eliza Gunther: It was a it was a weird year.

[2:41] Tori Bullard: It was that was a massive, massive year of like a lot of really good shows.

[2:48] Eliza Gunther: Like The Band's Visit.

[2:50] Tori Bullard: Uh just like Stella.

[2:52] Eliza Gunther: Maybe eventually I'll convince you guys to do one on The Band's Visit because it is such a phenomenal show.

[2:59] Tori Bullard: Well, I don't know, the way these deep dive polls have been going, we keep doing shows that you want to do.

[3:05] Eliza Gunther: At this point, just what can I say?

[3:07] Tori Bullard: What can I say?

[3:08] Eliza Gunther: The people know what they want, and it's me to talk about my favourite shows.

[3:12] Tori Bullard: Um, but like The Band's Visit was one of the shows that and it always tends to be, right?

[3:17] Eliza Gunther: So when I do get the chance to go to America, which has been a few times, uh I'm very fortunate to have, and most of the time, uh, it has been with my delightful mum, who is probably listening to this right now.

[3:30] Gareth Isaac: Hi mum.

[3:31] Eliza Gunther: Um Hi Mum.

[3:33] Gareth Isaac: And that was The Band's Visit was a show that my mum picked, and it always tends to be the shows that my mum picks that I'm like, uh, sure, alright, why not?

[3:42] Eliza Gunther: We're here, let's do it.

[3:43] Gareth Isaac: That I'm like, I leave, and I'm just like, oh my god, that was so beautiful.

[3:50] Eliza Gunther: Like, it's just the music just makes you feel so many things.

[3:56] Tori Bullard: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna straight up cut you off because you're you're you're deep diving on fances.

[4:02] Eliza Gunther: So, Mean Girls, we will Was this the same year you went and saw Mean Girls as well?

[4:09] Gareth Isaac: It was but two separate trips because this was the year that I was fortunate enough to go twice in one year.

[4:14] Gareth Isaac: The beginning of the year is my kind of uh graduation from uni trip, and then I went uh back in the middle of the year to study at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts, and that's when I got to see Mean Girls.

[4:24] Tori Bullard: So obviously, I am the person here that got to physically see Mean Girls.

[4:28] Gareth Isaac: I believe Gareth was a little bit more.

[4:29] Gareth Isaac: Well, to be fair, to be fair, I very nearly, I very nearly saw Mean Girls on my trip to New York.

[4:36] Gareth Isaac: But here's the thing.

[4:37] Gareth Isaac: I was on the West Coast in the airport, entering ticket lotteries because I was gonna be on the East Coast within about eight hours, but uh the ticket lottery website I'd applied to, my junk mail filter was too strong.

[4:52] Tori Bullard: So I woke up the next morning in New York and missed the email to get lottery tickets to see Mean Girls.

[4:59] Eliza Gunther: No, that's so sad.

[5:01] Gareth Isaac: Oh no, do not cry for me, Argentina.

[5:04] Gareth Isaac: Because the opinions I'm about to share with you, I am so happy to have watched the slime tutorial and paid nothing.

[5:11] Eliza Gunther: Oh see, I think we're gonna like, as per usual, we're gonna disagree a lot because I really like this show.

[5:21] Gareth Isaac: Although Oh, look, that's the reason you have me on.

[5:24] Gareth Isaac: I'm here for some lukewarm takes.

[5:26] Eliza Gunther: Although, and obviously, Gareth has not been luckily lucky enough to see it.

[5:30] Gareth Isaac: Uh, but she's gonna be a little bit more than a lot of people.

[5:31] Eliza Gunther: I have seen the slime tutorial.

[5:33] Gareth Isaac: Oh, I have to do that.

[5:34] Eliza Gunther: But it's been so it's been a busy week, guys.

[5:37] Eliza Gunther: Gonna be real right honest here.

[5:38] Eliza Gunther: It's been a bit of a busy week.

[5:39] Eliza Gunther: I was gonna do a bit of a re-slime tutorial, but I did actually watch it a couple of years ago, and obviously have listened to it a lot since then.

[5:49] Gareth Isaac: But yeah, I mean, I'm excited to hear your opinions about different, especially different takes seeing it live.

[5:56] Gareth Isaac: And Eliza and I have seen it online, which is also really different and can kind of give a different opinion.

[6:03] Eliza Gunther: But yeah, I mean the show itself is really interesting because it hasn't won any Tonys.

[6:08] Eliza Gunther: But I would say, you know, on The Band's Visit, it is still a little bit like the show itself is more popular though.

[6:15] Gareth Isaac: So that's an interesting take.

[6:16] Eliza Gunther: It might not have won the Tonys, yeah, but it is more popular in uh the theatre culture, especially with young people these days, then I think that I think that is definitely where it um in terms of the Tonys, like, don't get me wrong, I do think, in my personal opinion, that Mean Girls is a great show, it's really fun.

[6:37] Gareth Isaac: It's you know, it's a cult classic show.

[6:39] Eliza Gunther: It's kind of like a little bit like Legally Blonde, a little bit like Heathers, it's a cult classic.

[6:44] Gareth Isaac: People are of course going to like it, whereas The Band's Visit is more interesting, especially being a story that we don't already know.

[6:54] Eliza Gunther: So you can't really like you there is obviously a movie that I believe it is based off of.

[6:59] Gareth Isaac: Um, but you can't necessarily it's not a cult classic, like Mean Girls.

[7:04] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[7:04] Gareth Isaac: I see Gareth has his hand up very politely.

[7:08] Eliza Gunther: If you don't know this, I think it's absolutely hilarious.

[7:11] Gareth Isaac: We have a rule for deep dives because we all want to talk a lot.

[7:15] Gareth Isaac: We have uh we gotta put our hand up to uh so that we don't interrupt each other.

[7:19] Eliza Gunther: So it's really funny getting back into this and watching each other like me, me next.

[7:24] Gareth Isaac: Well look, I'm nothing if not a polite young man.

[7:28] Gareth Isaac: So um it's funny you make the Legally Blonde comparison because uh one of the creatives on this, Nell Benjamin, the lyricist, actually wrote all the lyrics for Legally Blonde.

[7:37] Eliza Gunther: No way.

[7:38] Gareth Isaac: I can definitely see that connection.

[7:40] Eliza Gunther: It makes a lot of sense.

[7:40] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, so if you look at some of these lyrics, you see all these connections.

[7:44] Gareth Isaac: It's it's a very similar thing.

[7:46] Gareth Isaac: Very similarly, the book by Tina Fey, phenomenal.

[7:49] Gareth Isaac: I really enjoy it.

[7:51] Gareth Isaac: It's the music that lets me down.

[7:54] Gareth Isaac: And I think part of the reason is that the show, to me at least, is fun.

[8:00] Eliza Gunther: You you said it yourself.

[8:01] Gareth Isaac: It's fun.

[8:02] Gareth Isaac: It doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

[8:04] Gareth Isaac: Like Richmond's composition work is great, he's won a lot of awards for it, like all of his stuff for 30 Rock was phenomenal.

[8:12] Gareth Isaac: But it's uh easiest way I can describe this is it's a hodgepodge musical when it comes to style.

[8:19] Gareth Isaac: It doesn't really find its feet.

[8:21] Gareth Isaac: Like I'd Rather Be Me was the single song.

[8:24] Gareth Isaac: People loved it, people frothed it, same with World Burn.

[8:28] Gareth Isaac: That is the kind of music I was hoping the entire show would be.

[8:31] Gareth Isaac: This mid-2000s pop punk slash musical theatre.

[8:35] Gareth Isaac: But instead, what we got was raw, what we got was uh sexy the Halloween song.

[8:43] Gareth Isaac: Broadway.

[8:43] Eliza Gunther: And where do you and where do you belong?

[8:45] Gareth Isaac: The most egregiously Broadway song I've ever heard given to the overtly gay character.

[8:51] Eliza Gunther: Yes, but you have to remember that that is exactly what that character is meant to be.

[8:57] Gareth Isaac: And yes, it is a stereotype.

[8:59] Gareth Isaac: But that's exactly what they were trying to make that.

[9:01] Eliza Gunther: I think there's a difference between going, mmm, ooh, let's let's make this.

[9:06] Eliza Gunther: This will make this character different.

[9:07] Gareth Isaac: And it's like, well, actually, no, that's just a that's just a stereotype.

[9:11] Eliza Gunther: It is very much meant to be this is a stereotype character.

[9:15] Gareth Isaac: But what I want to say about the music is all the most interesting characters get the best songs, in my opinion.

[9:22] Gareth Isaac: K I d Katie is just, excuse my language, fucking annoying.

[9:29] Gareth Isaac: I can't, I hate.

[9:31] Gareth Isaac: Look, Erica Henningson is a beautiful human, and I adore her voice.

[9:35] Gareth Isaac: But that character just pisses me off to no extent, more than the movie.

[9:40] Gareth Isaac: Like, her character, I'm like, I just get to a point where I'm just like, just shut up.

[9:45] Gareth Isaac: Shut up, go home.

[9:46] Eliza Gunther: Like, there's something to be said for the least knowledgeable character in a storyline, but Katie just fucking annoys me so much.

[9:55] Gareth Isaac: There is so little that she does.

[9:57] Gareth Isaac: There's so little in the way of literal physical consequences.

[10:01] Gareth Isaac: Like, aside from the whole bus thing, I don't think Katie learns much.

[10:06] Gareth Isaac: If anything, she's just like, hey, I'm just gonna go back to how I was at the start of the musical.

[10:11] Eliza Gunther: I think the m her main learning point is that she learns to be herself.

[10:14] Eliza Gunther: And you know, that is, you know, a thing, but obviously, this was a thing in the early 2000s.

[10:20] Eliza Gunther: It could have used a bit more uh modern day meaning to it.

[10:27] Gareth Isaac: But like, that's why I think that like Apex Predator and World Burn and Rather Be Me are so good and so exactly what you want because they're the most.

[10:38] Gareth Isaac: And I think even in the movie, they're the most interesting, diverse characters.

[10:42] Eliza Gunther: Because Katie, you can just look like anyone.

[10:45] Gareth Isaac: Like you can just look at it as being anyone.

[10:48] Eliza Gunther: Whereas Regina and Janice are such specific people that you know, you might meet someone who is kind of like Janice or kind of like Regina, but you have never met someone that is those people, and that's what makes it so interesting, I think, to hear their songs, and is what makes their songs like some of the best parts of the show, other than the script, because I have to agree, the book for this show is hilarious, and the ensemble in this show, Jesus Christ, they are insane.

[11:22] Gareth Isaac: They're fucking phenomenal.

[11:24] Eliza Gunther: I would completely agree.

[11:25] Eliza Gunther: I think that the yeah, I don't really relate to Katie as much as I thought I would.

[11:32] Eliza Gunther: Uh I definitely found her sort of annoying.

[11:35] Gareth Isaac: But I guess on that music note, something that was really interesting.

[11:38] Gareth Isaac: I was having a chat with some people at uni today just about the show and and about where it's sat and things like that.

[11:44] Gareth Isaac: And of course, it's based off Heathers, and it directly competes in some ways, not competes, but it sits on that very same storyline.

[11:53] Eliza Gunther: And it's really interesting how the movie is kind of more uh catered towards that adult teen, and it has it's a bit more naughty than the musical is.

[12:05] Gareth Isaac: The musical is definitely toned down, and like you said, like you thought that thought you'd hear songs like Rather Be Me and things like that because it's supposed to relate to the adult teen audience, and that's what they love to hear is is tracks like um is that kind of pop rock uh kind of music within the musical, really.

[12:27] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, so there there's definitely this juxtaposition of like where the actual film sat and now what they were trying to where they were trying to see and who they were trying to have this musical for with the status.

[12:41] Eliza Gunther: That's exactly the point I was going to make.

[12:44] Gareth Isaac: Who is the show for? That is my main question, and that was my main reaction watching it. Because number one, you still have the book by Tina Fey. The punchlines aren't landing as firmly as they would for a film. Like we're expecting a certain delivery, and when it's not done a certain way, the effect is lost, I think. Between that and the fact that the show references itself so strongly, it references its source material to almost an obnoxious degree, and also referencing modern world politics, like current day stuff, social media spread and connotation and how that affects teenage viewpoints and teenage growth. So at that point, I have to ask, who was the musical for? Was it for fans of Mean Girls?

Was it for a new Broadway audience? Was it for Broadway fans in general with all the musical references that come through with Damien? Like most people aren't going to be getting those jokes unless they're theater kids to begin with. Was it for modern day politicists with the subtle references to election rigging and Russia? Why? I'm sorry, I'm getting up in arms, but I'm so confused.

[13:54] Eliza Gunther: No, I mean it's still a good musical, don't get me wrong, but I get what you're coming from. What I would love so much, I'm gonna try and make this happen. I'm so determined to make this happen. Is someone who and something that we will talk about, whether it be now or later, I don't know, um, is T Boyage. Who, if you don't know who T Boyage is, T Boyage is the magnificent human being who was part of Mean Girls from its conception, uh, who did all of the um workshopping for it as Katie, who is the magnificent person who went on as Janice, a role that she was not meant to cover, with I think it was something like two or three hours notice that she was going on that night to play Janice when Barrett was extremely ill.

I believe they hadn't started swing rehearsal or anything, so nobody knew the cover roles yet. Um, so she went on with a couple of hours notice, but because she's been with this show, and she's not she's not part of the company now, obviously, because it is closed on Broadway. I believe they are uh currently ramping up, getting ready to go back on tour. Um, but I would love to talk to her about how how where this show went to where it ended up. I think so. I think it could be so interesting to learn.

[15:13] Gareth Isaac: Did it have that more adult feel to it? I definitely didn't feel like I was watching a kid's show. Like I will admit, I went for Spongebob on Broadway, and I felt very like there were moments I was like, oh my god, this is so adult, but it's a kid's show, right? I had the mindset of I'm watching a kid's show, I'm surrounded by children, but this isn't a kid's show, but it kind of feels like it is. Whereas I didn't I didn't feel like it was a like a young show, but I also it didn't quite sit at the point where I would have liked it to. I did feel, and I feel like we've spoken about this in regards to Heathers, not that we've done a deep dive of Heathers. They're trying to be each other a little bit.

I feel like Heathers is trying to be Mean Girls. Um, in that some productions of it feel very Mean Girls. And then there are some productions of like, and Mean Girls has moments where it kind of feels like it's trying to be Heathers. It feels like, to me, and not in a detrimental way, but also not in the best way, a fan service. It does. It feels like, hey, remember this line from the movie? Here it is in the musical, which isn't bad when you're doing a movie adaptation into a musical. Because, you know, you're playing to a certain audience. You're playing to an audience that loves Mean Girls and loves uh early 2000s rom-coms and early 2000s coming of age stories. That's what you're playing to, therefore, of course you're gonna go with that, but it's to what extent either side do you go to?

I feel like it could have had a little bit less, and it could have had a little bit more of that edge to it that you get from "Rather Me" and "World Burn" because Jesus Christ, "World Burn" is those songs, really like, oh, the whole show could have had just a the tiniest bit more of that.

[17:12] Eliza Gunther: I think it can be a bit hard though with Mean Girls. And with having Heathers and Mean Girls very similarly based from the same material, but I think that also you have this trope of a high of high school that is just this American trope that is throughout all of it. So it's it is really hard to kind of differentiate those two from each other.

[17:39] Gareth Isaac: Yes, I'm like, I've gotta do good voice work. Gareth's in the house. Happen to you not voice on Instagram. Anyway, it is a very, I think it's a really tough line for, and it would have been a tough line for them to know whether we lean into this or don't. But the thing is that Heathers is popular for a reason. And if and I think that they use some of those things within their own show, the reveal, the things like that that are really similar. You know, the use of lunch trays. There's only so many things you can do with a cafeteria if you think about it. So the use of the lunch trays. I feel like it's right to kind of do that in a sense because you also know, right? It's that line that you're constantly towing of um going, what's gonna make us money, what's gonna get people in the seats, and what's gonna make and it's such a hard, it is such a line because I can understand both sides of it.

I can understand as someone who is currently writing their own play in their own cabaret, going, Oh, but I really want to say this. Oh, but if I do this, will that make people more interested? You know, it's it's such a hard line of going, this is what I want to do versus this is what's gonna get people in the seats and finding the happy medium. And is there a happy medium?

[18:54] Gareth Isaac: So uh the lunch trays was mentioned, so that brings me on to a delightful point. This is some of the most Casey Nicholaw ass choreography that I've ever fucking seen in my life. Like, this is him going, cool, what's all the camp stuff I didn't put in Aladdin? Let's find a place for it here, and then eventually put it in the prom.

[19:15] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, accurate. Accurate. Like, my god, the similarities. Anytime I see him doing that delightful jazz hands-esque choreography of just arms, lines, legs, kicks, spins. I'm on the floor now. Like, yep. Congratulations, Casey, you've done it again. I love your work so much, but it's so obvious it's your work. Just sign your name on the dotted line, my dude. Here's your money.

[19:37] Gareth Isaac: Yeah. I think that's so funny because um I actually really I know that you probably I think it's not your favourite song, "Where Do We Belong." What gave that what gave you that impression, Eliza?

[19:48] Eliza Gunther: I know. What gave that impression?

[19:50] Gareth Isaac: But I actually genuinely really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the choreography, and I thought it was so it kind of strangely brought that Broadway right. That's kind of weird for this show, but it really brought that the the tone of where the where the movie sits when they're like, ooh, and they're like and they're going through the this is where the plastics sit and all this stuff. It kind of brought a Broadway version of that, and I kinda dug it.

[20:20] Eliza Gunther: I know that it might be unpopular. I disagree, but I'm gonna let you have it.

[20:23] Gareth Isaac: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I agree, but I also wish that what they did with "Apex Predator," I would have liked much more of a combination of what they already did with "Where Do You Belong" and what they did with "Apex Predator" of bringing because that's one of the bits that I always and people always remember, I think, from Mean Girls, is those um predatory moments where she's relaying it back to her life in Kenya, which I feel like we don't actually get a lot of in the musical. Like it's only it's only ever mentioned very strictly as in like um RAW. Uh RAW? Yeah, raw. It roars. It roars. Not raw. Thanks for watching. I'm calling it RAW because that's how it made me feel. RAW is a Katy Perry song.

[21:14] Eliza Gunther: Um sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna sidebar. I'm gonna sidebar on "It Roars" for a second. Why did it have a reprise less than a minute after it finished?

[21:23] Gareth Isaac: The applause, apparently.

[21:24] Eliza Gunther: No! Like, you don't need to reprise a song less than a minute after the first version finishes.

[21:29] Gareth Isaac: I don't remember uh that happening, so that is my response to that.

[21:34] Eliza Gunther: Um, just you wait then, just you wait. The reprises in this show are so egregious.

[21:42] Gareth Isaac: Like the other half of the soundtrack are just other versions of songs that have already happened.

[21:48] Eliza Gunther: Yes, but there are some of them that I quite enjoy. Like the one that I do really like that is a reprise. Sorry, a reprise. Sorry, I must say it like that. Potato Patano. Um is um my gosh, it's the song that Gretchen sings, and then Regina's mum sings it.

[22:07] Gareth Isaac: Oh yeah, what's wrong with me?

[22:08] Eliza Gunther: Yes, and then Regina's mum also sings it, and I love that so much because it's like, you know, a 17-year-old kid versus like a 40-year-old mum who is like, why doesn't my daughter love me? And I just find it hilarious.

[22:23] Gareth Isaac: See, I like the poeticism of it. I like the poeticism of those two sharing that song. I think it's a dumb song. And I think that Ashley Park made a meal out of that dog's breakfast. I really don't like it.

[22:36] Eliza Gunther: I think what I love about some of the songs, and I think the way that I look at them is that they're a nice a nice, I don't know, I don't know if nice is the right word. Um, is they're a great, like, um you know, you do think of um SNL and um excuse me, my love, can you come and lay down, please? This is not the time.

[22:56] Gareth Isaac: Children and animals, ladies and gentlemen. For those who view you are playing at home, Tori has a small white dog named Piper who likes to occasionally interrupt recording sessions.

[23:06] Eliza Gunther: This is an inadvertent paying of the pet tax. I now have um a guest. Piper, you're gonna be able to hear the licking on the microphone.

[23:15] Gareth Isaac: Oh, good. ASMR, we love that. Really? It's a new addition to the podcast. Moving moving right along.

[23:22] Eliza Gunther: Okay, so friends, we've been chatting for a while. We're getting a bit heated. How's about we redirect some of that heat into the latest of the Stage Door Podcast games?

[23:33] Gareth Isaac: Okay.

[23:35] Eliza Gunther: Oh, this ladies, you are in for an absolute treat this time around.

[23:40] Gareth Isaac: Okay, I'm ready.

[23:41] Eliza Gunther: I've cooked up something for you both that you're gonna enjoy. Given our protagonists' proclivities towards numeracy and mathematics, this is a numbers game.

[23:52] Gareth Isaac: Absolutely not!

[23:54] Eliza Gunther: No, it's okay, I'm not gonna be doing addition or multiplication. It is a multiple choice questionnaire. All the answers are numbers.

[24:05] Gareth Isaac: This isn't gonna be any better.

[24:06] Eliza Gunther: All the answers are numbers.

[24:08] Gareth Isaac: Oh my god, this is amazing, Gareth.

[24:10] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, get ready. Cause I wrote this. Um, for those who don't know my personal life, I'm just recovering from COVID. I wrote this in a complete fever dream while recovering this morning and watching Mean Girls. So good luck, everybody.

[24:25] Gareth Isaac: I'm keen.

[24:26] Eliza Gunther: Alright, let's do this.

[24:27] Gareth Isaac: Let's do it.

[24:28] Eliza Gunther: Okay, we're gonna be going one at a time.

[24:31] Tori Bullard: So I will start with Tori. The first question is for you.

[24:37] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[24:37] Tori Bullard: How many people was Regina supposedly allowed at her birthday party? Nine, ten, six, or twelve?

[24:47] Tori Bullard: I'm gonna assume that this is the birthday party.

[24:49] Eliza Gunther: That's correct.

[24:50] Tori Bullard: Just too Piper. The birthday party that Janice was not allowed to attend.

[24:55] Eliza Gunther: That's correct.

[24:56] Tori Bullard: Um I'm gonna go with. I feel like it has to be like a slightly odd number. I feel like it's either nine or six. What do you think? Nine or six.

[25:09] Eliza Gunther: Um, I think we'll go with nine.

[25:14] Tori Bullard: It was six. Your gut instinct was correct.

[25:16] Gareth Isaac: God damn it!

[25:18] Tori Bullard: I said six!

[25:20] Gareth Isaac: Dogs can't count, Tori.

[25:25] Tori Bullard: Okay. Eliza.

[25:28] Eliza Gunther: Alright, I'm gonna be just as unfair with this question.

[25:31] Gareth Isaac: Goodness.

[25:31] Eliza Gunther: How many reprises are in the show? Is it four, seven, nine, or five?

[25:39] Gareth Isaac: Oh my god.

[25:44] Eliza Gunther: Okay. I wish this was now a mathematical game. Okay, so obviously we have the first. Um, I feel like maybe "Stupid with Love" has a reprise.

[25:57] Gareth Isaac: I know, right?

[25:58] Eliza Gunther: All have reprises. Well, there's definitely two that I know for sure.

[26:03] Gareth Isaac: Okay.

[26:04] Eliza Gunther: I'm like, does "Where Do We Belong"? Does it do its own? This is, oh, I should have watched it last night. Um, okay. I'm gonna guess four.

[26:15] Gareth Isaac: Really? There are seven different reprises in this show. Eight, if you count the version of "Where Do We Belong" at the end of "Meet the Plastics." It's egregious and it makes me so angry.

[26:28] Eliza Gunther: I swear I knew there was an extra weird "Where Do We Belong"?

[26:31] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, but you're correct. You got that. Like, you guys need to trust your instincts more. Either that or not let me do the games anymore.

[26:38] Eliza Gunther: Is there really that many? Wow.

[26:40] Gareth Isaac: Yeah. Okay. Tori.

[26:42] Tori Bullard: Uh.

[26:43] Gareth Isaac: In "Fearless," how many times does Karen wrap her ribbon around herself in her dance? Is it four, three, six, or five?

[26:54] Tori Bullard: I would like to preface with I haven't seen this since 2018.

[27:02] Gareth Isaac: That's what I'm thinking. To be fair, I gave you all a link to this video.

[27:08] Tori Bullard: Actually, as a matter of fact, you did not give me a link.

[27:11] Gareth Isaac: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You might want to check your audio, Tori. I'm hearing some tiny violins playing behind you.

[27:16] Tori Bullard: I'm gonna go with three.

[27:18] Gareth Isaac: Oh, you know what? Go jump in front of a bus.

[27:23] Tori Bullard: Okay, I've been very kind with my last few games. It's not my fault that I've now given you a challenge because you're so intelligent.

[27:31] Gareth Isaac: Okay. Alright, Eliza. During "Whose House Is This," how many shots does Katie do? Is it five, four, three, or seven?

[27:44] Eliza Gunther: Ooh, Tori's raised her hand for the steal.

[27:47] Tori Bullard: Maybe. I could be incredibly incorrect, though.

[27:52] Eliza Gunther: Well, if you get it wrong, I come steal. Four, three, or seven.

[27:57] Tori Bullard: Okay. Um five?

[28:00] Gareth Isaac: Eh.

[28:01] Tori Bullard: I'm probably I'm like 95% sure I'm wrong.

[28:05] Gareth Isaac: Three.

[28:06] Eliza Gunther: You're wrong! It's four!

[28:08] Gareth Isaac: Why did you do two lots of four in a row, you piece of poo?

[28:12] Eliza Gunther: Because I'm cruel.

[28:13] Gareth Isaac: There is one final question I have prepared.

[28:16] Eliza Gunther: Okay.

[28:16] Gareth Isaac: And it is not multiple choice, but there is a definite answer. I feel like I know what this question is. And it is a bit of a trick question. What is the limit of the times Gareth wished he was doing literally anything else while he was watching the second act of this musical?

[28:37] Eliza Gunther: Gareth, the limit does not exist!

[28:41] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, Eliza buzzed in.

[28:44] Eliza Gunther: Um, is it the limit does not exist?

[28:51] Gareth Isaac: I'm giving it to Eliza. I'm sorry. We have pre-established buzzing rules.

[28:56] Tori Bullard: You didn't say the rules. Therefore, how would I know it is a new season?

[28:59] Gareth Isaac: It is a new one. I'm sorry, have you listened to any episode of this podcast?

[29:03] Tori Bullard: You've been doing this for three seasons now.

[29:05] Gareth Isaac: Yes, but we always reinstate it so that everybody has an equal.

[29:08] Tori Bullard: I feel like you should know the rules by now.

[29:11] Gareth Isaac: Um, I'm now the crown winner of both Tori and I not knowing.

[29:15] Eliza Gunther: I'm giving it to Eliza, if only because it's making you so angry.

[29:18] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, literally.

[29:19] Tori Bullard: I'm Tori, we got none of them right.

[29:21] Eliza Gunther: Neither of us otherwise. Eliza, are we the mean girls? We're bullying her and wearing matching outfits.

[29:27] Tori Bullard: I think we are. I didn't get the stripe memo.

[29:32] Eliza Gunther: Oh, thank you for playing this delightful mathematical version of the mid-show game, and I am not sorry.

[29:41] Gareth Isaac: You know, um, I'm just looking at our document right now, and I love this guy. This is what Gareth wrote, and I just want to read it for the public because I think it's amazing. Fucking dog puppet, I love him. Dot dot dot. I no longer love the dog puppet. Please explain your thoughts, Gareth, because that's bloody.

[29:59] Gareth Isaac: Okay. So it's good. Uh Regina's mum comes in. She's got the small dog in the movie in this version. It is a literal hand puppet. And I was like, oh shit, we're going full Muppets. I adore this. It cuts out the working with animals thing. He's just there having the best time being a puppet. And then all of a sudden, the dog starts eating the actor's breasts. It's like, you're doing that to yourself on a stage.

[30:27] Eliza Gunther: I mean, that's what happened to the movie.

[30:28] Gareth Isaac: I know it's a reference to the movie, but it's so egregious and upsetting to me because I'm just like, oh, we're getting a Muppet. I half expected it to start singing "Rainbow Connection." That's the mindset I'm in right now. It was like, oh no, the dog's a pervert.

[30:48] Eliza Gunther: If that's the only thing you've got against the Muppet.

[30:51] Gareth Isaac: I forgot the dog was a pervert.

[30:54] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I know. It's kind of that thing in the movie that sticks out in my head. I remember watching it when I was like, oh my gosh, so young. And it being so raunchy that the dog's doing that. I was like, Mum, look at the dog. So I am kind of glad the puppet's there. I think it's hilarious. I'm all for the puppet. Like, uh tip to be fair, the rest of my notes are just as much of a fever dream.

[31:18] Gareth Isaac: But I mean, look, let's give it a bit of, let's give it a bit of spice. Let's talk casting. Now I don't know if you guys have seen any of the celebrity castings that they did.

[31:32] Eliza Gunther: Oh, I like this.

[31:33] Gareth Isaac: So they at one point had Sabrina Carpenter as Katie Heron. They also had Cameron Dallas.

[31:41] Eliza Gunther: Cameron Dallas, that one as um, and there is the most hilarious video that I have seen of Cameron Dallas with um Renee Rapp.

[31:52] Gareth Isaac: Renee Rapp as Regina, where she's singing, um "Someone Gets Hurt." And Cameron Dallas just doesn't sing. He's meant to be singing, and he is so just like, I mean, to be fair, I mean when Renee Rapp is there singing at you, I would also just be like completely dumbstruck. And he's just like looking at her like so in love, and Renee is very clearly like I'm pretty sure though.

[32:20] Eliza Gunther: Well I guess I'll just hold this.

[32:22] Gareth Isaac: Well, I'm pretty sure that what happened though is that it got taken out because he I think okay, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure from what people have said is that it got taken out because he couldn't sing it.

[32:34] Eliza Gunther: So it was not good.

[32:34] Gareth Isaac: Oh, but that's so easy.

[32:37] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I don't even like the hardest song that he seen.

[32:42] Gareth Isaac: I don't I think it was actually a choice. I don't think that he forgot it. I think that it was a choice because yeah, I mean, I would have been really interested to see what his performance like was with the rest of it, because the only thing that we see of his performance really on TikTok, because it went viral on TikTok, is that clip of Renee walking around him and giving him the eyes, and he totally has the looks down to be an Aaron, and he has a lot of things going for him. He's obviously an actor, so I'm sure he did well in that aspect.

[33:13] Eliza Gunther: Well is he an actor?

[33:14] Gareth Isaac: I don't know.

[33:15] Eliza Gunther: Is he an actor?

[33:16] Gareth Isaac: I don't know, but we we haven't seen the whole thing. Or is he just attractive?

[33:19] Eliza Gunther: Well, yeah, you know.

[33:21] Gareth Isaac: And well, look, we don't condone, we don't condone bootlegging and stuff. We are doing it for research purposes only. Uh I will say, actually, no, I'll come back to this. Remind me at some point to come back to the insane fan base of this show because they are scary.

[33:39] Eliza Gunther: Seriously, I have a massive.

[33:39] Gareth Isaac: Oh god, no. I'm gonna talk about it now then I guess. I have a massive issue with, oh, oh god, Tori's on the soapbox. Stage, you know, stage dooring. We've spoken about this many times. You wait at the very least until people have bowed and have exited the stage. If you were a good person and a polite person, you wait until the band finishes, you clap for the band, then you slowly make your way down to stage door if that's what you wish to do.

[34:09] Eliza Gunther: These people, Jesus Christ.

[34:13] Gareth Isaac: They hadn't even bowed, and they were climbing over me, climbing over seats, trying to get out to stage door. And when I got to stage door, I kind of just stood and was like, you know what? If I can get in there, great. If I can't, well, I can't get in there. That's, you know, it is what it is. Whoever knows.

[34:31] Eliza Gunther: Are you sure they weren't climbing over you in seats just to get out? Because they didn't enjoy the show.

[34:37] Gareth Isaac: Not everybody shares your senile opinions.

[34:41] Eliza Gunther: I love it. These people when, okay.

[34:45] Gareth Isaac: Hurtful.

[34:46] Eliza Gunther: When especially very kind and courteous about a lot of musicals on this podcast. And the one time I come in with a strong opinion, I get shouted down. This is democracy manifest.

[34:59] Gareth Isaac: When so I think one of the massive things with this show, uh the show itself is it for me, I think good. Uh I wouldn't say it's anything revolutionary. It hasn't done anything crazy for theatre. It's good, it's fun, it's enjoyable. Similarly to when I went and saw "9 to 5" the other night. I loved it. It was so much fun. Uh it wasn't anything that made me go, oh my god, this will change the face of music theatre forever. But it was fun. It was an enjoyable show to sit there and watch, you know. Um, and there's always gonna be shows like that that don't make you physically sit there throughout the entire two hours going, oh my god, and like thinking about the world and thinking about reality. But as soon as these people saw Barrett Wilbur, because I was fortunate enough to see the full original cast, the Queen! Yes, she is amazing, but dear god, I felt like I was gonna be crushed by the girls on either side of me when Barrett came on because Jesus.

[36:00] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god, they like the screams, and yeah, I mean I screamed. Of course I screamed, it's Barrett fucking Wilbur.

[36:08] Gareth Isaac: Yeah. But I did not expect to have that much next to me. And so when I got down to stage door, and I am very much aware that Barrett Wilbur does not do stage door. She just doesn't. And sure, that is not required. I think apparently with good reason.

[36:29] Eliza Gunther: Yes. Look, there are many, many, uh, many many a rumour as to why she does it. And at the end of the day, you don't ever have to. And therefore, to me, there doesn't need to be a reason. I was just kind of like, she doesn't do stage door, cool.

[36:43] Eliza Gunther: I then therefore I'm not gonna expect her to. The anger. The anger people had after everyone had come out and done stage door because this is the thing. Obviously, in Australia, we don't really stage door.

[36:57] Tori Bullard: No, no.

[36:58] Eliza Gunther: I mean, you can, but it's if you do, it's very chill. It's just like, uh, oh hey, I just saw you in that show, you did great. Can we get a pick? It's not hundreds of people waiting.

[37:10] Tori Bullard: The equivalent.

[37:11] Eliza Gunther: It is literally like ten people deep trying to get photos, get signatures, all kinds of things. Um, I am very much went into stage dooring as like if you want to take a photo with me, uh thank you so much. If you don't, that is okay. If you don't even want to come near me, that's also okay. The fact that you're doing this is a bonus. I did not pay for this. Uh you were not being paid to do this. You were under no obligation to be here. But oh my god, some shows I went to, some shows, super chill, super like comfy. People kind of just like hung around, waited, chatted with each other, and if they got to see someone, great. If they didn't, oh well. This was like people.

[37:55] Tori Bullard: No, it was like mildly upsetting that, you know, Ashley Park came out, um, uh Erica Henningson came out. Um, what is I can never remember her name. She plays Karen, well, she originated Karen. Um she actually came out and made an announcement saying so pretty much I follow her on social media and I'd been watching all day because she was in LA filming something and she had been trying to get home all day to do the show, and her flights were delayed and cancelled and delayed and cancelled. She apparently like got into JFK about an hour before the show started and then made it and did the show. So she very much said, she came out and said, I will sign autographs, I won't be doing pictures or anything. I just I really just want to get home. And I was like, fair. If that was me, I would have just gone home.

[38:45] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[38:45] Tori Bullard: Um therefore you don't even need to period, you don't ever need to be here. But if you really want to, that's totally fair. People were like grumbling and still trying to get photos, and I was like, Oh my god. That is entitlement at the highest degree.

[39:01] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, I will say, the fans are crazy.

[39:04] Eliza Gunther: They are.

[39:04] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, and I feel I feel like this kind of show targeting this kind of demographic seems to attract a lot of the more I don't want to say militant theatre kids, but look at shows like this. Look at shows like Heavens, look at shows like even Beetlejuice to an extent has a huge social media following with kids like this, and it's that level of entitlement. I'm not saying that you're not allowed to like people or want to like take photos with them or get their signature. Obviously, that is allowed and recommended and encouraged, because you know, they've done good work. But the minute you start getting pushy about it and upset at the fact an actor just isn't able to give more than their character that night, then you become a problem.

[39:54] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it's like it's that thing that we've always spoken on, and I've always spoken on because I experienced it. Um I won't lie, I did do the thing of uh for one of the one of the first times did do the thing of leaving when they were bowing. Uh because I had never staged Ored, and I went, Oh, clearly, this is what everybody does. And seriously, the moment that I stepped outside, I just went, oh.

[40:23] Gareth Isaac: I hate doing that.

[40:25] Eliza Gunther: I hated leaving.

[40:27] Tori Bullard: Yeah.

[40:27] Eliza Gunther: I really didn't like that. It didn't it's not a good experience. Unless, of course you're leaving because you're like, wow, I hated that so much. Then I mean, power to you. If you hate it that much, you leave at intervals.

[40:38] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, but I was like, I felt so like icky. I was like, that's not nice. That's not a very nice thing to do. Decidedly.

[40:46] Tori Bullard: Anyway.

[40:47] Eliza Gunther: Moving on from that and talking about the casting, which is what I started off talking about, is thoughts on casting.

[40:54] Gareth Isaac: And I would love to know your favourite songs.

[40:57] Eliza Gunther: I mean, I have zero thoughts on casting. Because you mentioned the word senile earlier, and I do have to lean into that a bit. I didn't pay any attention to the celebrity casting in this production because I had no idea who the fuck any of them were.

[41:13] Tori Bullard: A hundred percent.

[41:13] Gareth Isaac: I think they've only really um become big because of the show. But I mean, one of my favorite favorite castings from this is Renee Rapp. I mean, she wasn't the original, obviously, but she has gone so far. Like, I remember watching the Jimmy Awards. I always love watching the Jimmy Awards.

[41:32] Eliza Gunther: Who doesn't?

[41:32] Gareth Isaac: Theatre kids out there watching the Jimmy Awards. And she literally was in the Jimmy Awards in one year, like graduating high school, and then straight into Mean Girls. And I just think that and she is so talented that you go, how do you not have like formal after school training and be that intelligent and that well rounded at such a young age? But she has really taken it quite far because it's very rare to have someone out of high school. I mean, she wasn't the only one that year from the Jimmy Awards.

[42:08] Eliza Gunther: Um, there was do you guys remember his name?

[42:11] Gareth Isaac: He went to Dear Evan Hansen.

[42:13] Eliza Gunther: I I do know who you're talking about.

[42:14] Gareth Isaac: Yes, anyway.

[42:15] Eliza Gunther: Oh, yeah, my dad's someone out there. Like, I wasn't so much talking about the celebrity casting, although I because I wouldn't even say Renee Rapp is a celebrity casting. I would say she's a legitimate casting.

[42:28] Gareth Isaac: Um, but I do wish that they did more of that casting, you know, closer to the age. Although that being said, I would still like to cast in that show, and I'm very much not that age.

[42:38] Eliza Gunther: Well, it is really interesting because the only real like think about the original. The only real kind of that I can think of from my perspective that was a big theatre name or someone that was famous is is literally Barrett Ruble Weed. That's the only person in the cast that was really well known.

[42:57] Gareth Isaac: But even then, she was a theatre performer.

[42:59] Eliza Gunther: Well, other than Tina Faye. But then you also look at um uh Taylor Louderman, who originated uh in Bring It On.

[43:08] Gareth Isaac: Yeah.

[43:12] Eliza Gunther: Um, Fabio Campbell Campbell, there we go.

[43:18] Gareth Isaac: Yes.

[43:19] Eliza Gunther: And um Ashley Park, yeah, who had done a lot.

[43:23] Gareth Isaac: Ashley Park's done a lot for sure, but I think it's that level. Do you know what I mean? Like that next, next, next level of like people that even don't do theatre or something would know your name. And they've only done a couple of that, which is good.

[43:37] Eliza Gunther: I feel like they had only just started doing their, you know, kind of like a little bit like a waitress. They had only just really started doing their celebrity castings before COVID.

[43:46] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, that was the case.

[43:48] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, you've got to get to a place with the show comfortably. Again, like waitress, where they've had a long amount of time with a stable cast, before they then start going, oh, let's put in Sarah Borelis and let's put in so on and so forth, you know, where we can now feel comfortable.

[44:03] Gareth Isaac: I feel like they'd only just got into that point because they had Cameron Dallas, they had Sabrina Carpenter, and then the show closed.

[44:10] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[44:10] Gareth Isaac: Um sadly, never to reopen. Umlike some shows, like Beetlejuice, who has been absolutely resurrected and opens again in like a month or two.

[44:21] Eliza Gunther: It's crazy.

[44:22] Gareth Isaac: Thanks to social media.

[44:24] Eliza Gunther: I think it's great that if any show was gonna come back from the dead, it would be goddamn Beetlejuice.

[44:31] Gareth Isaac: I love that show very much, and I'm sure we will do a deep dive on it.

[44:35] Eliza Gunther: I feel like it's one of the ones that is always kind of close to the top.

[44:39] Gareth Isaac: Um just doesn't quite different strokes for different folks, is the way I like to view it. Like Mean Girls has always stayed in the cultural zeitgeist. Like, how many other people will know the quote on Wednesdays We Wear Pink, or you can't sit with us, or stop trying to make fetch happen, or she doesn't even go here. Like the number of times I use that quote.

[44:58] Eliza Gunther: Like, it's very regular.

[45:00] Gareth Isaac: You go Glen Coco.

[45:02] Eliza Gunther: Oh, yeah, you you go Glen Coco.

[45:04] Gareth Isaac: That that is so much now within the cultural consciousness that you know, full credit to Mean Girls, they do very well for themselves. Did I think the musical was good? Not necessarily. Do I think it's fun? Yes. And that that I think is the type of.

[45:20] Eliza Gunther: I think that for audiences though, watching it, they enjoy it. It's a good show. It's got some really cool singing in it, it's got you know, it shows off the chops of those performers, like nothing else, and it kind of just gives you this beautiful nostalgia feeling, which is like nothing else. And I think that's why it's so popular is because people loved mean girls. They loved to like reference the old and now the 2000s is old. Like, can you believe that?

[45:45] Tori Bullard: God, I felt like that was yesterday.

[45:48] Eliza Gunther: Welcome to my aging world.

[45:50] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, aging.

[45:51] Eliza Gunther: And like that that love of of the show is what brings everyone back and why it did well for as long as it did.

[46:00] Tori Bullard: Yeah, I think it definitely and it did do well because you know it is Mean Girls. It's no revolution of a show. It is fun, it's entertaining, and you know, it's a good show that you sit for and you watch for two, two and a half hours, and then you're like, cool.

[46:16] Eliza Gunther: I'm gonna go get pizza now, you know.

[46:18] Gareth Isaac: Yep, you're told don't be a mean girl, and you go off into the world.

[46:23] Eliza Gunther: And that I think is something we can all take away from tonight's deep dive.

[46:27] Gareth Isaac: I felt very mean about this show because I got so impassioned about it.

[46:31] Eliza Gunther: I'm terribly scared.

[46:32] Gareth Isaac: I feel like this show is not it's designed to feel good. You're designed there is there is musical theater that is designed to make you sob and then go out and really question every life choice you've ever made and about the universe and all this stuff. And then there are shows like Mean Girls that you walk out and you go, that was good, I really enjoyed it. That was a good two and a half hours of fun and flair and production numbers and great singing, and you leave and you go, like you said, you just you're able to go feeling good, and you and you go about your the rest of your day just feeling that little bit of extra oomph, and that's what the it's designed for a little peppiness stitch.

[47:15] Eliza Gunther: I think that's what it's designed for, really.

[47:17] Gareth Isaac: Well, I mean, if this is the impact that if this is the impact that mean girls has had on the world, then I'm happy to let it go, and I'm happy to let that be the ending point. It's had its impact on all of us. At the end of the day, it's a fun show, and it has its flaws, as do most shows.

[47:33] Eliza Gunther: It's definitely not a son time.

[47:35] Gareth Isaac: No.

[47:36] Eliza Gunther: Um, but it's it's definitely not a mamma mia either.

[47:40] Gareth Isaac: Yes.

[47:41] Eliza Gunther: It sits in a nice happy medium, I think.

[47:43] Gareth Isaac: Oh my god, that is the perfect spectrum.

[47:46] Eliza Gunther: But I think we've absolutely uh chatted the the ears off of our listeners.

[47:52] Gareth Isaac: I think so.

[47:53] Eliza Gunther: I honestly don't even remember half of what we were spoken about. But here we are.

[47:57] Gareth Isaac: Oh my god. This was a ride, and thank you once again, Stage Door Podcast, for having me along for.

[48:04] Tori Bullard: Oh, we love having you, Gareth.

[48:05] Gareth Isaac: Oh, always.

[48:06] Eliza Gunther: And uh we we will uh once this episode goes live, uh, we will chuck up another poll for what the next deep dive will be. I think I've I've lit and uh listed down a couple that we uh might possibly do things like Beetlejuice, Grease, Heathers.

[48:21] Gareth Isaac: Uh now that we've mentioned it, uh bring it on.

[48:24] Eliza Gunther: Uh but who knows we'll I've seen that one. We'll uh we'll put it out to you guys.

[48:30] Tori Bullard: But anyway, thank you guys so much for listening and keep tuning in to all of the deep dives we do here. Thank you again, Gareth, so much for coming on.

[48:39] Eliza Gunther: We love having you.

[48:40] Tori Bullard: We love the spicy opinions. Um, obviously, uh we hope you guys enjoyed it too. But let us know your opinions if you disagree, like let's have the conversation.

[48:51] Eliza Gunther: But until then, stay happy, healthy, and safe, and we'll see you then.

[48:55] All: Bye!