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[0:02] Tori Bullard: You're listening to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:05] Tori Bullard: The podcast celebrating theatre and creativity from on stage mishaps to career defining moments, hosted by Thespians, myself, Tori, and co-host Eliza.

[0:15] Tori Bullard: Fortnightly, we will bring you industry professional guests, deep dives and more.

[0:21] Tori Bullard: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:24] Tori Bullard: Today we welcome Sophia Bryant and Emma Van Veen to the podcast.

[0:28] Tori Bullard: Before we get started, I would like to acknowledge that I am on Gadigal Land, the traditional custodians of the land on which we work, live, and record, and we recognise that sovereignty was never ceded.

[0:38] Tori Bullard: Before I jump into the episode today, I would also like to acknowledge that Eliza is crazy busy right now in rehearsals for her final show at the Queens Eye Conservatorium, so she will not be joining me for the interview today.

[0:49] Tori Bullard: But do not fret, you'll be hearing her voice again real soon.

[0:52] Tori Bullard: Emma is a vibrant up and comer in the Sydney theatre scene, specializing in movement theatre.

[0:57] Tori Bullard: Originally studying theatre and media at Charles Sturt University in Bathurst.

[1:02] Tori Bullard: With over four years of industry experience, Emma's notable collaborations include Monkey Bar Theatre, Griffin Theatre Company, ATYP, Flight Path Theatre, and Paper Jam Productions, among others.

[1:13] Tori Bullard: Sophia is an emerging director with a particular focus on working with original works.

[1:17] Tori Bullard: Sophia's directing highlights include Dumb Kids, a staged reading with KXT, Mr. Theatre also with KXT.

[1:24] Tori Bullard: Sophia was also an assistant director for The Resistance with ATYP, How to Defend Yourself with Outhouse Theatre Company, and many, many more.

[1:33] Tori Bullard: Please welcome to the mic, Emma and Sophia.

[1:36] Sophia Bryant: Hello, hello.

[1:37] Emma Van Veen: Howdy.

[1:39] Tori Bullard: Welcome.

[1:40] Tori Bullard: It's so lovely to meet you both.

[1:42] Tori Bullard: Well, I mean, Sophia, we've worked together before, so I've already met you.

[1:47] Tori Bullard: But it's wonderful to meet you, Emma, and to chat to you guys today about Dumb Kids.

[1:52] Tori Bullard: Very, very excited.

[1:53] Tori Bullard: But to jump straight into it, tell us a little bit about how you both got into the world of theatre.

[1:59] Sophia Bryant: Um, this is actually funny because this links into how Emma and I even became friends to begin with. So we both did like we know each other from high school, so we actually did extracurricular theatre together. Um was in the grade above me.

[2:11] Emma Van Veen: Oh amazing.

[2:14] Sophia Bryant: Um, so we did like a drama ensemble, and I think I was in year seven and Emma was in year eight, and just the powers that be had both decided to influence us separately to get these horrendous bob haircuts.

[2:28] Sophia Bryant: So we both kind of came into this extracurricular, met each other, realized we were kind of the same person, and both had this horrendous kind of not bowl cut, but like think that level of horrendous.

[2:41] Sophia Bryant: Um, and we kind of were just like, wow, we really are just like yeah, drama twins, and have kind of then went off in our own paths and kind of discovered our own voices in theatre, Emma went to Bathurst, I stayed in Sydney, and then we kind of reconnected and now have a working relationship, which is really lovely to have.

[2:57] Emma Van Veen: Yeah, we've been bouncing one brain cell ever since.

[3:01] Emma Van Veen: Yeah, we finished each other's sentences in the rehearsal room, so which is quite funny.

[3:07] Tori Bullard: I love that.

[3:07] Tori Bullard: We love theatre relationships like that, and also like working theatre relationships.

[3:11] Tori Bullard: Well, tell us a bit about Dumb Kids.

[3:15] Sophia Bryant: What's give us a bit of a spiel. What's it about?

[3:18] Emma Van Veen: Yeah, so essentially it's actually had a lot like, yeah, what's what is it about? Um it's had a long run in terms of it actually coming to fruition. It originally actually started as being pitched as the 2021 major work for the Sydney University Dramatic Society.

[3:34] Emma Van Veen: So that's essentially just kind of a student theatre kind of society. Um, and it was get the the major just gets a bit more money and a bit more backing.

[3:42] Emma Van Veen: So we pitched it as an original script that we're gonna do for the major. Then, as is the case for many shows, COVID just meant that we weren't able to put it on in the way that it deserved to be put on and trying to do movement stuff over Zoom and just the lot restrictions and lockdowns.

[3:58] Emma Van Veen: So we ended up not being able to do it as the major, but what we did do is we did a staged reading at KXT in 2021, because I was also helping kind of produce the Panamo Pandemonium Festival at the time, which was kind of just like a whole bunch of new works that COVID did shut down and giving, I think we did like 14 shows in like two months or something like that.

[4:16] Sophia Bryant: It's insane.

[4:17] Emma Van Veen: Um, so we just did like a one night only staged reading, and like look, I say staged reading, but we had like lighting design, costume design, sound design.

[4:26] Emma Van Veen: It was they had their scripts on stage, kind of as like disguised as textbooks, um, and then we had kind of a few key moments where Emma pulled out and we went just ham with the movement to kind of just see what the show could be, would be, and should be if it was put on again, and also just to give some creative catharsis to the cast, because like so many shows were just being blanket cancelled, and even though we weren't able to do it as a full season, we had already put a lot of work into it.

[4:51] Emma Van Veen: We had a really fabulous cast behind it that had been heavily involved in the development of it, like it was a really collaborative kind of script writing process.

[5:00] Emma Van Veen: Um, so we were like, let's give it some life and just see what if it even works, which we're so grateful for because then we were able to get some feedback on it and see, yep, no, that really stands out, that really worked, that needs to be tidied up a bit here.

[5:16] Emma Van Veen: Um, we trimmed some characters or like kind of merged them together, figured out some kind of eggy bits in the ending that we were like, nah, let's change it to be a bit more like that and kind of tidy it up a bit.

[5:27] Emma Van Veen: Um, and then yeah, we pitched it for the main season and now it has a full life.

[5:31] Emma Van Veen: Um, but yeah, it's essentially a high school setting, these like kind of examining the Australian high school ecosystem through a very queer Australian lens, and just looking at the epic highs and lows of the kind of experience of finding I know I hate it, but of finding your identity.

[5:31] Sophia Bryant: The epic highs and lows have haunted us through this show.

[6:00] Emma Van Veen: But it's yeah, it's it's there's a lot of heartbreak, there's love, there's you know, discovering who you are as a person, there's how do I decide who I am?

[6:14] Emma Van Veen: Am I this identity that I think I am? What is it to question your identity in a kind of modern setting?

[6:19] Emma Van Veen: We wanted to move away from more traditional narratives of just like overt homophobia for queer students, and hopefully take a more nuanced look at identity struggles and where does that shame sit when it's coming less from an external place and more from an internal place, or how do you sh kind of release those shackles, even if you are in maybe a really accepting place, or if you've kind of been rushed into being outed, or having to take on a title.

[6:48] Emma Van Veen: How do you then grapple with well, everyone's really positive and excited for me and wants me to have this this label, but maybe am I ready to have that label? I'm still figuring things out.

[6:56] Emma Van Veen: Just kind of hopefully some slightly more nuanced conversations about all the different shades of what that those experiences can be.

[7:05] Sophia Bryant: Yeah, absolutely.

[7:06] Sophia Bryant: It's so I think obviously we just don't have enough queer theatre in general.

[7:11] Sophia Bryant: Um, and I think especially queer theatre for young people where they can see themselves and their experiences represented, not just in the yeah, the outward sense of what homophobia can look like, but what it actually looks like internally.

[7:27] Emma Van Veen: And I think going through an education system where you know there are definitely some places that are so supporting and so understanding, but there are equally, if not much much more um institutions where there is no understanding, there is no education um period for queer students or people that are just trying to figure out who they are, so it's so wonderful to see a show that is going to really get deep and delve into that and just not purely in a negative sense.

[7:57] Sophia Bryant: Yeah, there's and even but off what you were saying there of like having to kind of figure it out themselves, that was a big kind of running dramatic question for us of so often queer students or like queer kids don't have the kind of pre-existing narratives or like it's not built into the kind of education system to have all of the answers for them.

[8:15] Sophia Bryant: So, and especially in a modern day where we're kind of equipped with all this kind of therapeutic jargon that so often we're just teaching ourselves, and it's kind of just kids leading kids trying to figure it out, and where the kind of positives of that are in that support system, but where also the pitfalls of that are of at the end of the day, they're just kids trying to figure out how to grow up.

[8:35] Emma Van Veen: Yeah.

[8:35] Emma Van Veen: And that there are some kind of yeah, exactly what that looks like, yeah.

[8:39] Sophia Bryant: Whilst also very much still wanting to find the really positive moments of it.

[8:43] Sophia Bryant: Like it's a very joyous play.

[8:45] Sophia Bryant: We the rehearsal room we're just cracking up all the time, and the cast has been really involved in kind of finding those little nuggets of joy, and we it was a very important to us that if we were gonna show some of the pitfalls and the kind of the down the kind of you know the negative sides where we also had to show and uplift the positive sides and make sure we showed positive, queer sexual relationships and kind of cute, endearing queer moments, or kind of have discussions about you know uh pronouns and how do you engage with those kind of titles?

[9:18] Emma Van Veen: And it was actually really heartwarming.

[9:20] Emma Van Veen: We had one rehearsal where we have like a the boys scene where they're all playing video games and we have a a trans character that's just casually included into that, and one of our actors actually cut quite emotional in the rehearsal room, just expressing how like heartwarming and gender affirming it would be for maybe if there's any audience members that are questioning the gender identity to just see this character so openly welcomed into the boys scene and that not be a thing and not be questioned and the comedy of the scene coming from just who they are as a person and how rather than it being a whole kind of thing, and like yeah, and it was that it was really I made me really proud of the show and really kind of it was a lovely rehearsal, just being like, Oh, that yeah, that would be really wonderful to see that up on stage.

[10:05] Sophia Bryant: Just like normalizing queerness and making it just almost a mundane thing.

[10:13] Emma Van Veen: No, but I mean there's a whole scene in the show where they're like, Do you think we're sitting in PDHP talking about dental dams?

[10:19] Emma Van Veen: And then one of the other characters, like, what the fuck is a dental dam?

[10:23] Emma Van Veen: Like, is that for flossing? Like, what is this thing?

[10:25] Emma Van Veen: And I just like I feel like it's it's ridiculous how often you find yourself in a conversation, especially with a younger person.

[10:32] Emma Van Veen: You're like, oh my god, the things that are not explained to you, and like the things that you kind of have to stumble upon on your own, and how like intense that is as a young person to be like discovery is is a wonderful part of the process, but at some point you do go, God.

[10:49] Emma Van Veen: I just wish someone would outline these things for me, so I don't have to, on top of figuring out who I am, I don't also have to figure out like how I engage in things safely and like how I have conversations about difficult topics, like you know, one of the characters um like kind of that is much more comfortable with their sexuality, and as a maybe a bit further along in their kind of journey of that, describes himself as the patron saint of lost gays because it is this kind of he has then all the answers, or so he thinks, and everyone else is kind of coming to to that character to be like, How do I do this?

[11:23] Emma Van Veen: Or what does it mean? How do I understand grinder and how do I do this?

[11:27] Emma Van Veen: And should I do that?

[11:28] Emma Van Veen: And what does that mean? Is there a way to understanding dating apps?

[11:31] Emma Van Veen: I don't think there is.

[11:32] Emma Van Veen: I just think they're an absolute dumpster fire.

[11:35] Sophia Bryant: No, we don't have the answer to that.

[11:43] Tori Bullard: And what made you both want to work on this piece of theatre? Like, what was something that just made you really kind of go, This is the kind of theatre that I want to work on?

[11:55] Emma Van Veen: Um, well, first I think Soph reached out to me when this was still in a studs production space, and I had just finished university, and I think the idea of making a show about young people with someone that I was a young person with was incredibly exciting, just because like there are so many times when we've been making this where we're just looking at each other and we're like, oh god, this is so nostalgic, just because it felt so it made parts earnestly like reflective of our lives and our experiences together, which you know is always such a joy. Um, but also I think on a from a movement perspective, which is where I often really come from, like this show just has so many opportunities to delve into the mind of a teenager, and we kind of go into several of the different characters and like explore events through the lens point of like how they imaginatively view their world and how it feels to be inside their head, which I always just think is such a exciting and joyous place to work from, and so much of this play has just been built from joyous collaboration and like play, I guess.

Like the and it's it's so beautiful to put yourself in a childish frame of mind and like to really reflect on your childhood, and I always thought that like kids' theatre specifically is where so much of the magic sits in our industry, like there is nothing more joyous than a crowd of young people when you have them, which can be a bit of a battle, but there is just such a nostalgia and earnestness to all of this, it just makes it so creatively exciting and engaging for us as creatives and practitioners.

[13:44] Sophia Bryant: Yeah, I think for me, there was a couple points. Um, I'd worked with the writer Jacob a few times before, so I kind of was already quite excited by the kind of work that he produces, but prior to this, he pretty much only done two handers, um, and then he came to me and he's like, So I've written a show, it has 14 characters, and all of the scenes are polyphonic and essentially happen at the same time back and forth, and I was like, Okay, you've got my interests, let's talk about this. And I read the first draft, and I was like, This is amazing, and there's something really wonderful in this. Um, and I was really excited by the writing style of it, but I was also like, This could just be a talking heads play.

This needs something as well to sit and complement the very structured, clever writing of it that will then lift it into a really magical theatrical space, and that's where I was like, movement. And I prior to this, like I'd done some movement, but I'd predominantly worked with kind of very heavy realist plays, and I was like, you know who I should reach out to? Emma, and because she's just got all this cool, like circus stuff and background in just like the most interesting theatre I've ever seen, and I think knowing as well that Jake was coming into this, that this show was a very different it was experimentation for him as well. So I was like, let's just really lean into the experimentation of this, let's let this be a creatively enriching project for all of us, and just try something a bit different. Let the movement and the devised quality lift it and elevate it, and just try something a bit different, and that really creatively excited me.

[15:25] Emma Van Veen: Um, and Jake as well had expressed that he really wanted to work with the actors, especially being that many characters, to find the authenticity of their voice, and that's what I will say about Jacob. He's incredibly generous writer, and that he really leaves his ego out of the room. He will we do the best developments, and he will sit down with the actors and be like, Does this ring true to you? How can I phrase this better? How does this sit in your mouth? And like, how does this feel coming from your voice and your experience? Knowing that there are certain things that he can write very well because he's lived that experience, and other things that he can write very well, but leaves there room for someone to step in and claim it and make it their own.

Um, which is really joyous to watch. Like, we did a whole session just sitting down with our kind of femme presenting characters and being like, how do we find the authenticity of female friendships in this show? How do we find the authenticity of female voices? And then similarly having a whole kind of round table session with any of our non-binary or trans characters. And then, like, how do we find the authenticity of your experience? What are the things you're comfortable for us talking about? What are the things that you think we should highlight? What would you like to what would make you proud of this show? And what would make you proud to perform this? Um, and I think that's an energy that's kind of bled through the whole process and makes also then all of the actors they feel so invested in the piece.

And we've done some improv sessions where then their dialogue is put into it, and they're like, Oh, that's oh, I said that, that's fine. That's and they have a touch of ownership on it, yeah, which is really lovely to see.

[17:01] Sophia Bryant: And I'll to reiterate what's so saying. The collaborators on this piece have been quite frankly the most incredible thing about it. Like, I cannot speak highly enough about all of the people who have been involved in this show, whether it was from their its first iteration to now, like, oh, I love them all so much, and they're all just such incredibly talented people. Jacob, especially, like, what an incredible writer, what a beautiful collaborator, like, just so giving, so in touch with like being really empathetic in the room and really listening and really taking on board any like creative or constructive criticism, just ah, so good.

[17:45] Tori Bullard: That's great. I think it's it's not every day that when creating theatre, creating new work or working on revivals of work that you get to have that opportunity where it is just such um an open and willing collaborative space, and I think that those are some of the the best experiences I know for myself when I've done shows, those are some of my favourite experiences when I've really got to actually collaborate on what the work is from both an acting and a writing point of view, and getting to hear other people's opinions, and but knowing that it's been done as well in like a safe environment where what you say has weight, it's not just being said and then being it's off into the ether and it doesn't matter anymore. Um, so it's so good to to see and to hear that that's what this experience has been like because Jacob is such is such a wonderful wonderful writer and is such also like a wonderful human and mentor as well.

[18:42] Tori Bullard: And Emma, so you're the movement director, which is not something that I've had a lot of experience with before. What does that role like entail for you? And I'm sure it's probably different for everything that you do, but what has that entailed for you so far with Dumb Kids?

[19:00] Emma Van Veen: Yeah, well, I will say, like, I have a lot of different random background pieces that kind of come into play with what's being brought into this space. There's a little bit of circus, a little bit of devising, you know, lots of skill sharing. Um, but beyond that, in terms of like this specific play's progress, it's been about some shows you'll just be like, now all of a sudden we're in a movement scene and there's not a lot of dialogue, and we're just gonna like play it all out through our bodies, which I also you know there is a time and space for that, and that is so lovely. The nature of Jacob's writing in this one, you know, you don't want to lose the beautiful polyphonics, and like it's such a strong script and it's vocal, so it was really about collaborating really strongly with the text, which was a was a new one for me, so I was quite excited by it.

Um, and it was just about like breaking down the drama, like the specific dramaturgy of like what is this scene actually trying to achieve, and then speaking to that, and then also collaborating really strongly with each of the individual actors whose mindset we were looking through in that scene. So it was a lot of like back and forth dialogue with all of us really wrestling about like what are the emotions and intentions we're playing out here, like how does this character view themselves? What does that look like when we place it in the body of either yourself or in the chorus because I love working with a chorus, it's been a lot of chorus work. Um then it was also you know, how can we get some really fun, ridiculous images in here? So playing a lot with some acrobatic skills and some fun, ridiculous things, but I won't say too much so that people come and see them.

[20:54] Tori Bullard: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. No, it's I think it's so it adds so much. I think, like you said, there is definitely time and place for everything in theatre, but I think those are some of the most interesting shows to watch, and some of the most I feel almost involved shows because you're not just seeing a scene play out through words, you're seeing how it plays out physically and emotionally as well, and it brings so much, I think, humanity to it as well, because it doesn't there doesn't feel like it needs to be there's no like need for it to be perfect in a sense.

[21:38] Emma Van Veen: No, and that was a big thing for us. We really did we weren't trying to create perfect theatre by any means. If anything, we were like, let's make some mistakes here. Um, and I think the movement actually allows us to actually breed more truth to the story, because especially coming from a place of yeah, we really chatted about what's the physical language of the show, what's the dramaturgy behind it, and we're like, well, when you are in high school, the it really the there is a melodrama to it because it's your first time experiencing all of these things, like your first heartbreak, you were an Emma and I and we've chatted about it in the room. You're like, you genuinely think you're never gonna see colour again.

It's like this I've I've entered into no one has ever felt this pain before, no one's ever loved like I have loved before, no one gets you know like you're like this is the end of the world, and it's like dialogue sometimes can't represent that in the way that then movement and the kind of heightened theatricality and the joys of the magic of theatre allows us to show that. I would actually say it feels more true and more real, and similarly, the highs and you know, the flourishes of kind of those euphoric moments of childhood also then lifted into this beautiful space. Beautiful things happen when we're allowed to detach from reality, I think explore what different realities can look like to different people.

[23:05] Sophia Bryant: Yeah, and just across the board, the cast has been just like yes and to everything.

[23:10] Emma Van Veen: Um like the we have I I don't think this is giving away too much, but I think it's a nice little tease that we definitely we have a moment where one of the actors is standing on the shoulders of another actor, uh too high, and just like straight off the bat, we were like, We're thinking of maybe trying to achieve this. Is it who would feel comfortable to attract like you know, you do not have to, there is no pressure. But if anyone wants to kind of learn this skill, would anyone be interested? And we had a couple of our actors just be like, absolutely, and being like, I'm kind of terrified, but I would love to do that, and so we've just like done it every day, and every rehearsal just practiced it and practiced it, and it's there's such a sense of pride to see a skill be finessed and honed, and maybe something that in your average rehearsal room it you're not doing, bringing out the mats and the crash pads and the kind of we're all being spotted, and just seeing the pride in the actor's face that they're achieving this, um, is is really special. It's such a satisfying moment, I think.

[24:12] Emma Van Veen: Uh, because like, and I always say to the actors, like, I I didn't come from a strong circus background, it's just something I picked up when I was at uni. But there was I remember feeling so powerful and so connected to the other people that I was working with when I was doing these like things I never thought I was gonna be able to do, and I think that for this show, one of the great things is being like, but what if you could do it, you know? And what if you know we create an environment where you get to just try? And I think because we were going into it being like this show should just be fun for us to make for people to watch, like it should be joyous. And if you know, I train you for two weeks on a set of crazy skills, and none of them end up in the show.

That's fine. That's so fine. Because we've all just been a part of this beautiful process of learning and sharing and growing together. And luckily it is in the show, so come see that. But you know, it's just yeah, the the sense of of trust and care for each other in that space has been so beautiful to see. Shout out to the to the to the dumb kids, we love them so much.

[25:19] Emma Van Veen: And a test to kinda Emma and and also just the tone of the show as well. The movement, yes, there are moments where it sits in a very beautiful space, but it isn't this like Sydney Dance Company-esque lyrical movement where we're all looking very serious and we all have to have picturesque bodies. It is a fun and playful, and we have encouraged them to make silly faces at each other, and some of the most comedic moments of the show are actually in the movement, and the offers that are coming up in the room, just they're a bit I'm in stitches half the time. It's so good too, and I'm so excited to get the opportunity to see it later this month.

[26:01] Tori Bullard: Yes. But what we're gonna do now is we're gonna take a little bit of a break, and we're gonna do a little bit of a game.

[26:08] Tori Bullard: Yeah, this game is called Swipe Left or Swipe Right. Swipe left or right.

[26:16] Tori Bullard: So this is a take on dating apps or Tinder specifically. I'm just gonna ask you some random questions, and you're gonna let me know if you would swipe left or swipe right. So swipe left is no and swipe right is yes. Um and thanks to Didry Coo, we now have super like, which is swiping up. Okay, but the first question is reality TV, swipe left or swipe right.

[26:40] Emma Van Veen: I'm gonna say swipe left, but I do uh I have an appreciation that for like good there is a time and a space for a good reality TV show. You know what I mean? Like sometimes you just need some mindless TV.

[26:55] Tori Bullard: Yeah.

[26:55] Emma Van Veen: Can I can I say I'll swipe left, but with the exception of YouTube clips of like the best moments from reality television. I just want I just want the good cards. I don't want to sit there for several hours, have to wait for it to happen. I'm too impatient.

[27:11] Tori Bullard: Yeah, give me give me all the drama and let me get out.

[27:15] Emma Van Veen: Yeah. Give me the drama in like a little 30-second increment, and I'm good.

[27:19] Tori Bullard: Okay, swipe left or swipe right on school dances.

[27:24] Emma Van Veen: Oh, swipe right.

[27:25] Tori Bullard: Swipe right.

[27:27] Emma Van Veen: No.

[27:27] Tori Bullard: Yeah!

[27:28] Emma Van Veen: Even that, and that's like because there is a we play we mention the formal in the like that's kind of a plot point is it the in the show is that the formal's coming up for them all, and one of the characters is very invested in making the formal great for everyone, and I'm like, that was a hundred percent me in high school. I got so into the kind of the sentimentality of it, it was like this is a a coming of age. We all have to, you know. I was like, we're gonna get into it, guys. This is amazing, we're gonna wear our pretty dresses.

[27:56] Tori Bullard: The amount of times Sophia in high school would come up to me and just be like, I don't know if I'm making it off memories.

[28:04] Emma Van Veen: I don't know. Like, Sophia got nostalgic about high school.

[28:08] Tori Bullard: In high school.

[28:10] Emma Van Veen: Before she finished high school.

[28:12] Tori Bullard: Yeah.

[28:13] Emma Van Veen: It had to be uh an 80s T like John Hughes film. But no, I I swipe Right on School Dances purely out of love for a very specific school dance, which was at Hills, which was the I think it was like the year seven disco or something, and we all went to the gym and I just remember wearing so much fluoro. I think I was wearing like three different fluoro tops on top of each other and like so many uh like the glow stick like the bracelets, yeah. Glow sticks, and I remember just like breaking it down to like crazy frog or something. And I'm like, you know what? That was iconic. That was a great time. If I could go back to that moment, I think I would. But that's the only moment from school I'd go back to. Just that one.

[28:56] Tori Bullard: I think they played sexy bitch at our year six disco and like Flow Rider's low. And upon reflection, I'm like, I don't think that was okay. But I remember popping off in the like like yeah haul being like a bunch of year six students or like, you know, just being like trying to get low, low, low and like apple bottom jeans and it's like oh if I could be a fly on the wall of us like crumping.

[29:20] Emma Van Veen: Oh and just and just the image of like all the all of the the like all the the girls over here and all the boys over here and just like the stare off of like alright and then the boys just absolutely decimating the dance floor when like one song would come out and then they've all like shift back off like that. That's what I mean. It's cringe but you have to do it. You just have to.

[29:43] Tori Bullard: Yeah. Alright, jumping back into it. What has been your favorite moment so far working on the show.

[29:54] Emma Van Veen: One of my personal favorite memories, one of, is there is a song in the show, like an original song called Canteen Girl. Anyone who knows me knows that I like shrink back into my skin and want to die when people start just randomly singing. Hence why I'm really bad at musicals. It's a well-known fact. I apologize. I love it for everyone else, but I just can't do it. And so Canteen Girl was always like a little bit of a difficult moment for me. The cast came together, and uh Christine Pan, our incredible sound designer, made the most ridiculous new version of this song that has me absolutely just cackling with laughter, and then they had the audacity to add like nine like uh in sync backstreet boy style dancing, and then Kate has a rap, and it's so funny, and I feel like I'm doing a disservice to who I am as a person by loving it so much, but genuinely I cannot think about it without being in stitches. It's so good. I look forward to it every time we go into rehearsals. I'm like, ugh.

[31:14] Emma Van Veen: Um yeah, it's become it's gone, it went from this very like cringy but quite heartwarming like acoustic guitar promposal, you're my canteen girl, to this boy band-esque little dance number. And the best part is we didn't choreograph it, we were just like go off, figure it out, and you know what? That was just that was just deep down inside them, you know, that was waiting to come out. That was it was like I can't wait to do choreograph dancing, and then you just get to watch the actors because it's performed to the other actors in the show, and just watching their faces just be like, Oh dear god, and like it's just they're actually breaking in the scene because it's so funny, and I'm gonna keep it. No, it's great, it's great.

[32:03] Emma Van Veen: Um, I think one of my favorite moments is actually some of the kind of conversations we've had, both in the first development of the show and then in the most recent one with our kind of female or femme presenting characters where they just kind of let them just improv some dialogue to just kind of show authentic female conversations that don't center around boys or you know, something along those lines. And I in the very first iteration, I was just like, just start just start chatting about something, let's just see what comes up, we'll go from there. And one of our incredible actresses just turned to the other one and just went, I just don't understand how buoyancy works. Like, I I do, but I don't, like, I don't get how boats float, and then they proceeded to have this like quite heated back and forth about like not understanding buoyancy, and that's retained in the script of like these characters just enter the scene, just being like, but how do boats float?

And it's like, why aren't we learning about this? It's like I just don't understand it. And then the next iteration, we're doing another kind of like session, and then it became this whole thing about like if we've only explored five percent of our oceans, how can we be certain mermaids don't exist? And actually, once again becoming quite a heated argument about like, well, do mermaids have guilds or do they have mouths? And is it are they fish or fishes? And just watching essentially like six conversations happen at once over the top of each other, and Jake was just sitting there like writing it down, just being like, Oh, so this is how this is how you guys talk to each other. And I'm like, yep, 100%. It's really confusing, and we're arguing about fish.

[33:43] Tori Bullard: Like, and that's it's unhinged in the best way of the conversations ever actually finish, and you're just building on top of each other constantly.

[33:53] Emma Van Veen: Yep.

[33:53] Tori Bullard: All talking on top of each other and yet all completely listening and understanding.

[33:57] Emma Van Veen: Yep. That's I love that.

[33:58] Tori Bullard: And now that's what I'm gonna question for the rest of my day is how does buoyancy work? How do boats float?

[34:06] Emma Van Veen: Kind of like how do planes fly? It shouldn't be a thing that happens.

[34:08] Tori Bullard: Which is a thing I think every time I'm on a goddamn airplane.

[34:11] Emma Van Veen: You're like, this is too heavy, it shouldn't be but it was just so left to feel like an out of pocket that I was like, you've been storing that one.

[34:22] Emma Van Veen: My favorite thing is when like guys like because I we overhear you overhear so much in a bookshop. I can imagine assume that like what femme presenting people talk about is just like boys or like dating and like reality TV, and I'm like, no, actually.

[34:47] Sophia Bryant: We talk about why we have bones. Why vote on inside, not on outside bone, exactly protect us much better. Why do I not have an exoskeleton? Bugs do? I could and that's I think that's where I was like so grateful to Jake, because yeah, he's a fantastic writer, and the female characters or the femme presenting characters always had great authenticity, but he was so receptive to just like, yeah, there are little nuances to those kind of relationships and how those kind of communities talk to each other that you're maybe not privy to, and then seeing that represented in a way that I do feel is quite authentic really just fills me with a lot of pride because yeah, I want to watch women just talk about why boats float or whether you know, are mermaids more like Harry Potter mermaids, or are they more like mermaids in The Little Mermaid? Like, why why where's the science behind it? You know, yeah, I love it.

[35:44] Tori Bullard: What do you want audiences to take away from this show?

[35:48] Sophia Bryant: I think Emma and I had a good chat about this the other day in that we did. I think we want both a mix of joy and contemplation. It kind of it balances both I'm gonna say it again, the epic highs and lows. Like we tackle some pretty heavy stuff, but also I think finish in a place of a lot of hope. Um it asks a lot of questions. There are ten characters that are each just exploring, like a kind of through line that we keep coming back to, or that the show asks is how do we grow up? And really treating growing up as this like kind of active verb that when you are in that process of kind of straddling both childhood and adulthood, you are kind of trying to grow up. It's something you're quite cognizant of, and sometimes that's something you're trying to rush, sometimes that's something you're trying to put the brakes on and avoid, and you're really trying to figure out who you are and how do you become the adult that you want to be, and each of these characters tackles that or views that in a different way, and I think they all navigate that kind of discovering the shared community and also the isolation of trying to grow up.

Um so yeah I think it should I think Emma the other day put it really wonderfully that um gonna paraphrase you here you kind of said it the story should feel go for it. Should should feel familiar to those who have gone through the process of growing up and should speak truthfully and feel authentic to the people that are kind of currently going through it. So I think there is a little bit of something in there for everyone. Um it should feel heartwarming it should feel bittersweet it should feel real um and it should feel magical. And also you know in a time sorry not to deeply politicise it, but I think Jake has been very aware of this that you know we are living in a world that's becoming increasingly hostile towards queer and trans kids.

Um and I think it's important for them to have spaces where they feel seen and they feel heard and they feel valued um where they can see themselves being loved and accepted and cared for um you know it's it's a really it can be really isolating to feel like you are the only person going through that. Um and that is the last thing that we we want these young people to feel we want them to feel like you know we see you and we hear you and we are here for you when you are ready. You know, we'll be your support system. Um because I think the arts generally tends to take on that mantle for a lot of people. But I th I do genuinely believe this is a really important story for those reasons, and I think Jake has been very aware of that from the beginning. So you know also keeping that fresh in people's minds.

[38:43] Emma Van Veen: Yeah.

[38:44] Tori Bullard: No, absolutely. It is such a we like to think, I think, that things are getting better, and like it's what's the thing? Swings and roundabouts. It's like some things get better and then other things get worse.

[39:00] Sophia Bryant: Yeah.

[39:01] Tori Bullard: And you know, I wanna think that it's getting better, but it's also just not like certain areas get better and then other areas just get so much worse because people are focusing on the positives of certain different aspects.

[39:14] Sophia Bryant: Yeah.

[39:14] Tori Bullard: So I'm really excited to be able to see this show and to see what it brings up for my little my little queer heart. Just a final comment off that, or just not having it be that the blanket kind of concern or issue for queer kids is that if they come out the people around them won't accept them. It's that if we're going in a space that in a modern society, you know, queerness you know, it's absolutely not perfect, but that's people are a little bit more comfortable with that idea, and maybe that's not the biggest concern of being just rejected by your peers, that there are so many more that's kind of step one, and there's still a hot there's so many stories that happen after that, and if all of the kind of narratives that we see in queer media just focus on that step one and that one problem, that can diminish and kind of not give time or space to many other conversations that still need to be had.

[40:07] Tori Bullard: And I guess to kind of finish it off a little bit for today, I'm already sold, and I feel like if you're listening now, you're probably already sold. But if you need a little bit more of a nudge, in three words, why should our listeners come to see Dumb Kids?

[40:23] Sophia Bryant: It's queer, it's joyous, and it's gotta.

[40:29] Emma Van Veen: Do I no, it's a fair you do you should do the real answer?

[40:35] Sophia Bryant: No, it's it's playful, it's tragic, and it's meaningful. Oh, also the set has m the set has monkey bars in it, so I think that as well. The set is uh a playground.

[40:47] Emma Van Veen: I'm so excited.

[40:49] Sophia Bryant: I know, I love uh the set designer just like I was like, what about monkey bars? I'm picturing like a playground and just immediately going, yes, and but also I feel like now more than ever is the time to support original work. Um I think you know the people follow what the money does, and if you give your money to people making original work, we can make more of it. Um, so you know, that is also just like let's get some new voices in the space, let's support people making new stories, and let's keep a really supportive culture in our community of uh, you know, put it up, get it out, having fun supporting each other.

[41:31] Tori Bullard: Amazing.

[41:32] Tori Bullard: So so excited, so excited to get to see this show. And to reiterate for those listening, it is so you can head to Kingscrosstheatre.com slash Dumb Kids to organize tickets. Um, and you can also follow Legit Theatre Co, which is just Legit Theatre Co on Instagram as well as on Facebook, and you'll be able to find Sophia and Emma through both of those links. But before we go, we have a segment on our podcast called Bedtime Stories, which is stage mishaps, costume malfunctions, just those memories of theatre that wake you up randomly at four in the morning when you have the cringy memory of it. Do you both have a bedtime story for us?

[42:15] Sophia Bryant: Um look, I have a few, and I think anyone that's performed has a few. Um, but I think the one that always that I I think of the most is probably so it was 2020, and I was doing a production of Macbeth, and I was Lady Macbeth, and I was so excited about it, and it was opening night, and it was going into the banquet scene, and so I had this beautiful long like emerald ball gown, silky, high heels, like it was I was obsessed. And just because of the nature of COVID, we'd had to rehearse a little bit separately, or it was a little bit rushed to get to the kind of end product, so we hadn't really thought about the fact that there was blood from the previous scene that maybe hadn't been cleaned up before we went into the banquet.

But of all the scenes for this mishap to happen, so I'm storming over. I'm about to like tell you know Macbeth that he's ruining the party, and for everyone to just relax, everything's fine. What is Sophia do? Sophia slips on the blood. And I don't mean like just a little slip, I mean like almost cartoon-esque feet out from under me, up in the air, arse over tits, kind of just like flat on my back. I knock down a table, the like the everyone's like wine goes everywhere, the the hush in the audience of everyone and even the actors on stage is going. But fueled me, fueled me. Best performance of the of the banquet scene ever. Because I could immediately just be like, the lines worked, like the dialogue of the scene.

Look, I can't remember the Shakespeare exactly right now, but it's it's the vibe is very much the adrenaline is just like everyone, the party's fine. Keep having fun. McBeth, you have ruined my party. And I got to like I'm it was the most visceral performance of this scene I've ever been involved in. Cause I was genuinely like semi-holding back tears from pain. People were coming to check on me, and I'm like, go away, it's fine, keep the party going. And then my crown had fallen off, and then the kind of the scene ends, and Macbeth is essentially just like, you know, that's we shall to bed. And every time we'd done it previously, it kind of was quite dismissive, and that was kind of the tone of the scene.

But because of how much it happened, the our Macbeth performer just really was quite present in the moment, picked up the crown, came and sat it on my head, and was just kind of like, let's to bed. And it suddenly was this kind of lovely apology almost. But yeah, it was just the most visceral, incredible, you can't plan this stuff kind of thing. And in any other scene, it would have just been like a terrible accident, but it kind of made it the best performance we've ever done. And then I was like to the director, can we do that every night? And he was like, Absolutely not, that's a massive OHNS game. Um so yeah, an opening night, and everyone just watched me, watched me fall in the most ungraceful, horrendous way possible, and I was covered in blood and red wine. And it was the best, and it was honestly the best.

[45:45] Tori Bullard: Thank you so much for taking the time to come on and chat today about Dumb Kids.

[45:51] Sophia Bryant: Thank you for having us.

[45:52] Emma Van Veen: No, thank you for having us.

[45:53] Sophia Bryant: I'm so so excited. It's gonna be so wonderful to get to see this up.

[46:00] Tori Bullard: Again, you guys, it is on from June 23rd to July 8th at KXT on Broadway. Um, but until next time, thank you so much, both of you for coming on and having a chat today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, but until next time, stay happy, healthy, and safe, and we will see you then. Bye.