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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast, your backstage pass to intimate conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders.

[0:14] Gordon Cox: On Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond. I'm Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Conrad Ricamora, the actor who's back on Broadway in the project that gave him his first breakout role in New York, Here Lies Love.

[0:29] Gordon Cox: In the 10 years since the Off Broadway premiere of Here Lies Love, Ricamora spent six seasons on the Shonda Rhimes series How to Get Away with Murder, and last year he starred as the Mr. Darcy-like love interest in the movie Fire Island. He's got another TV show on the way called How to Die Alone, premiering on Hulu later this year. But before that, you can catch him on Broadway, starring once again in Here Lies Love.

[0:52] Gordon Cox: The show is an immersive dance party musical about the rise and fall of Imelda Marcos, told against the backdrop of Filipino history. Ricamora stars as the face of the political opposition to Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos's regime, Ninoy Aquino.

[1:06] Gordon Cox: Before we get into the interview, a word of warning and of apology. Due to unavoidable circumstances, the sound quality on Ricamora's end is not as good as you're used to. I'm very sorry about that. So I hope you'll forgive the echo and the occasional audio hiccup. I also hope you'll bear with us for the entire interview because the actor has insightful and revealing things to say about his deep personal connection to the show, and about the purposeful cognitive dissonance of telling the story of the corrupt Marcos regime in a musical that takes the form of a karaoke dance party.

[1:43] Gordon Cox: How's it going?

[1:45] Conrad Ricamora: Great. Um, so I'm talking to you just a few days after Here Lies Love began previews at the Broadway Theater. You have, uh, is it one performance under your belt so far? Is that what it was?

[1:54] Conrad Ricamora: Yes, one performance with many, many years apart from the previous performance.

[2:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah, and how did it go for you on Saturday night?

[2:05] Conrad Ricamora: It went really well. Uh, I feel like revisiting this character after originating it 11 years ago has just allowed me to like deepen it and get more specificity on it. And, uh, that's just the greatest gift as an actor, I feel like is getting to refine and be more detailed about, uh, your performance.

[2:28] Gordon Cox: Yeah. They've completely transformed that theater, right? Like they've taken out the seats in the orchestra, and you can—it's like a totally different space.

[2:38] Conrad Ricamora: Yeah, I was surprised about how close the mezzanine felt.

[2:44] Conrad Ricamora: Um, I felt like real—like there were times, I mean, I know that sometimes I go up to this little catwalk that is literally on the mezzanine. Um, but even when I was down in the pit, I felt very connected to the energy of everyone up in the mezzanine, which I was surprised by.

[3:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Is this by far the largest crowd you've ever done this show for? I feel like none of the other theaters you've been in have accommodated this many people.

[3:10] Conrad Ricamora: Yeah, besides the one we did a benefit for hurricane victims in the Philippines at Terminal Five that was just a concert, uh, but that had like 5,000 people.

[3:20] Gordon Cox: Right. And what does having all those extra people, all those additional people, all that energy in the room do for the performance, did you find?

[3:33] Conrad Ricamora: I honestly feel like it heightens it. Uh, and, uh, once we had everybody on Saturday in the theater, and I felt connected to the entire theater, from everyone from the back row of the mezzanine to the pit and all around me. Uh, feeling surrounded by the story was something—I mean, it's something that's so special about this show and is not lost, and again, feels heightened, uh, with more people, and especially the way that they've, uh, configured and—and David Korins is so brilliant, um, that I don't feel like anything is lost. I feel if anything, it feels heightened, uh, that the storytelling does in this new space.

[4:23] Gordon Cox: Yeah, you get in particular a real kind of karaoke rock star moment right at center stage that feels—it felt different to me in my memory. I mean, I saw that show, what, 10 years ago, but like it felt different to me just because there were so many more people for you. You know, you were right at center stage and you were singing, and it's like, uh, it felt like a totally different, uh, extremely heightened kind of version of what we had seen before.

[4:47] Conrad Ricamora: Yeah, I concur.

[4:50] Gordon Cox: And so you've mentioned that this is a show you haven't done for a while, but it's a show you've done several times. You came back to it even after your TV gig on How to Get Away with Murder started to take off. Like, what is your connection to the show? It sounds like you have a pretty personal connection to the show and what it's about.

[5:08] Conrad Ricamora: I mean, yeah, my dad came over from the Philippines, uh, when he was 10 years old, and he's a military guy. He doesn't talk about his past or his feelings very much. And then when I booked the show, uh, you know, I booked the third and final workshop 11 years ago, um, uh, when I was in grad school still, because I flew up while I was still in my third year, uh, of my MFA program.

[5:35] Conrad Ricamora: And, uh, all of a sudden he just like really started opening up about—uh, he started softening around things and talk—and he's seen the show 15 times. Um, and I could really feel how he—it made me connect a lot of dots that I'd never connected before. You know, him coming over here as an immigrant, and I'm sure at that time when he first came over, had a very thick accent that he then got rid of and then didn't teach us Tagalog or, uh, Visayan. He speaks two dialects of, uh, the Philippines, and he didn't teach my brother and I either of them because I felt like he wanted us to really assimilate, even though he never said these things out loud. And then to see this immense pride come up when I'm telling this Filipino story, uh, was something that I hadn't experienced, uh, from him, and in turn made me want to learn more about my own history and made me really proud, uh, to be, uh, half Filipino.

[6:45] Conrad Ricamora: Um, and that was a new experience for me. That was a new, uh, experience of my identity. It sh—it really, uh, healed a part of myself, um, uh, that I didn't—I just didn't expect. And so, yeah, the show means a lot.

[7:06] Gordon Cox: Yeah. How much did you know about Filipino history, uh, going in before you got this role?

[7:14] Conrad Ricamora: Uh, uh, little to none. I remember, uh, I was—I was about five years old when, um, the People Power Revolution was happening, and I knew about Cory Aquino, and I just—but I just thought it was just a—there was this big parade happening in the Philippines, and that there was like, um, uh, Cory Aquino was coming into power, and in my memory, I was just like, "Oh, there's like a female president, that's so cool that that can like happen somewhere," but I didn't know anything about, like, you know, the Marcoses stealing billions and billions of dollars and like all of the human rights abuses because I was five years old.

[7:57] Gordon Cox: Right, yeah.

[7:58] Conrad Ricamora: Um, so, uh, learning about that and, uh, yeah, that's learning—I'm just learning about that kind of stuff, like the details now.

[8:09] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Were there, uh, uh, things that you learned either in your own research or in conversations with your father that really informed your take on the character?

[8:21] Conrad Ricamora: Oh, I mean, uh, my stepmom told me, like, because my—she was like, "Your dad has been dancing around since you booked this role," and I was like, "Oh, yeah, it's cool, it's Filipino." And she was like, "Well, you know that your great uncle was like the secretary of finance in the Aquino administration."

[8:42] Conrad Ricamora: Oh, and I was like, "No, I didn't know that. Tell me anything." He was also adopted—he was adopted and then didn't find out he was adopted until much later. Um, so he doesn't like—he doesn't talk about his past or his family or anything like that. Um, but she was like, "Yeah, he talks to her more than to my brother and I about stuff," and then she relays the information.

[8:58] Conrad Ricamora: The cast of Here Lies Love on Broadway is all Filipino. What is important about the specificity of that for you?

[8:58] Conrad Ricamora: Honestly, I feel like the importance is mostly because we are—you know, the characters, uh, in all Asian shows have usually revolved around a white character as, uh, you know, Chris in Miss Saigon and then, uh, Anna in The King and I. In this story, it's just full of Filipinos, and it's about—and there's something different about playing, uh, characters that are just existing and don't have to comment—like we—we don't comment on all like our Asianness or our otherness, and usually, like in, uh, past, like Broadway shows, uh, that has been like the highlight of an all Asian show is, "Look at how different! Look at how, like, look at how Asian we are!" And it's through the white character's lens.

[8:58] Conrad Ricamora: Um, and so being able to do Here Lies Love and not have to, like, you know, do an accent or be like the other, uh, is a huge, like, sigh of relief. Well, it's more about our human—actually about just our humanity.

[8:58] Gordon Cox: Have you found that the fact that you all in the cast kind of share some version of a similar heritage does that affect the texture of any moments or of the process of working on the show for you this time around?

[8:58] Conrad Ricamora: Yeah, it feels—I mean, we definitely feel the rarity of it, and that makes it more special, like the fact that we get to—all of us have this personal connection, families to this story. Um, and, uh, the Philippines is such an interesting country, colonized so many times over and over again. Um, that, uh, yeah, yeah, I again, it's—it's all because it's never happened before. We're all getting to learn about, uh, the country that a lot of like—that we come from.

[8:58] Gordon Cox: Have you ever been to the Philippines?

[8:58] Conrad Ricamora: No, my dad never k—never went back, and we never went as kids. Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, but I definitely want to.

[8:58] Gordon Cox: Yeah, I'll have more with Conrad right after the break.

[8:58] Gordon Cox: And now here's more of my conversation with the actor Conrad Ricamora. So Here Lies Love began life as a concept album that was created by David Byrne of the Talking Heads and Fat Boy Slim.

[12:18] Gordon Cox: And, uh, in that initial release, it was performed by this like bonkers collection of like really great, uh, mostly female singers. It's got like Florence Welch and Tori Amos and Natalie Merchant, like, uh, it's a crazy list of people.

[12:32] Conrad Ricamora: See us on there.

[12:34] Gordon Cox: Um, but—and part of the concept as an album and then as a stage show is that it's imagined as this kind of karaoke dance party, uh, as a reference to karaoke's kind of deep roots in Filipino culture and history, and also to that like glam nightlife that Imelda Marcos really sort of got into in the 80s. She was a big, uh, Studio 54 fan, which is a fact I learned in this show.

[12:56] Gordon Cox: It seems like these songs were not necessarily written for actors who are in the process of creating a character, at least not initially. And I wondered if that was a challenge for you to kind of find your way through an emotional through line and a character through line with the songs that you sing in the show.

[13:14] Conrad Ricamora: No, well, because David wrote a lot of the songs for me when I was cast, uh, they're not on the concept album. So that arc started being built while the musical was being built.

[13:29] Conrad Ricamora: Um, so, uh, yeah, like Child of the Philippines, Fabulous One, Gate 37, those are all not—were not a part of the initial concept album. Um, so, uh, yeah, it wasn't—I feel like I—in that regard that they were already like my songs were tailored to an arc, um, uh, in a way, but, uh, it's also so much to, uh, find the arc of a historical character because there is—there's already an arc there, um, uh, through their life. Their—everybody's life has an arc.

[14:09] Conrad Ricamora: Um, so, uh, just going back, reading, watching videos of Ninoy, uh, was allowed me to—to learn about him and to visually see what he was like in his younger years, the way he carried himself to when he was in prison for seven years, uh, and then that to when he was in America to his physical, emotional, mental arc is very well documented. Um, uh, so that wasn't super hard.

[14:49] Conrad Ricamora: Is there anything in particular that you learned that you feel like really unlocked the character for you your version of the character?

[14:56] Conrad Ricamora: Oh gosh just going back to when he's speaking about you know after before Ninoy pre-martial law and then Ninoy during martial law when he was imprisoned and in America and then on his journey back um the uh the he really did uh have this this boyish um energy but then when he would get on a thread that he really about and was like it's almost like something else was moving him to speak and and I think that this has to happen when you're speaking truth for that truth has got to move through you because there's so the the consequences for anybody that is speaking up against a dictator or in a regime has got to be moved by something other than their own self-preservation because uh your your life is in danger when you speak up against those uh dictators in the past, and his passion uh there's very there's a very big difference to when you can see in his interviews to when he's really in his personality in in his own like you know, easygoing Ninoy, and to when he's like really speaking passionately for the people and for the cause that that is bigger than him.

[16:28] Conrad Ricamora: Uh when he's speaking up for something that's bigger than him, he has a whole different way of carrying himself and uh and differentiating like songs from like Child of the Philippines to then like Fabulous One, and then all of this that are peppered throughout the the show like I just yeah, it's just something that I just like tried to be open to from watching him and letting that spirit and letting that energy move through um Here Lies Love is a good time by design, right?

[17:04] Conrad Ricamora: Like we dance, you know, we do a line dance, people on the floor dancing the whole time, you know.

[17:08] Gordon Cox: It's like it's it's a fun party.

[17:10] Gordon Cox: Is it as fun for you all to do?

[17:13] Gordon Cox: Is there a moment in particular that uh you really relish?

[17:16] Conrad Ricamora: I love Child of the Philippines.

[17:18] Conrad Ricamora: I mean, and then it gets pretty dark.

[17:21] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[17:23] Conrad Ricamora: Honestly, it it's a good time until it's not, and then it's when I'm up there, um really does feel like this meditation on power on um and uh on following idol and idols and celebrity, and uh and to be this to play this character in the middle of a dance party especially towards the middle and definitely towards the end it's this cognitive dissonance that I feel that then it feels like oh I like I hate to I hate to break up the party but people are being beaten on the streets and like are your are your rights are being taken away and like all of these things that like I that Ninoy starts to introduce in the middle and uh is a very like so in I I don't know about if I can say it's completely enjoyable well I mean that was actually gonna going to be sort of my next question which is what is because it's like it begins as you as you point out like uh particularly in the beginning it's like very enjoyable and there's dancing and it's a good time and then it is you know centered on a couple of people who committed some pretty uh you know terrible who did some pretty terrible things um and it was centered on a regime that did some pretty terrible things and I just wonder what you feel like is useful or instructive or enlightening about that kind of juxtaposition or that turn that you feel like it makes when you start to bring the party down for want of a better uh description.

[18:56] Conrad Ricamora: Uh yeah I think especially for I mean we've we're seeing this play out now in our own country when political leaders are not are not um serving the interests of the people that they're supposed to be representing um and then how that then can the the corruption then creates, you know, uh allows those leaders to make deals that are that are self-serving, that are then just lining their own pockets.

[19:30] Conrad Ricamora: The the idea of greed, um uh greed and capitalism unchecked even, I may say that that is uh something that you know, greed and excess and uh which feels kind of like what happens when you're when a party gets out of control, whether that's a political party or a political person or a party in general, any kind of like party atmosphere, when it when it becomes too unchecked, uh then you lose sight of of reality and you lose sight of facts and you lose sight of the truth, um that uh then you have to deal with the consequences.

[20:15] Conrad Ricamora: Um and I think that that's what this show uh does.

[20:22] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[20:23] Gordon Cox: Um so you're just starting your run.

[20:25] Gordon Cox: What is the message?

[20:26] Gordon Cox: How do you how do you encapsulate the message in your in when you think of it?

[20:31] Conrad Ricamora: I kind of don't want to say because it has to be experienced.

[20:34] Conrad Ricamora: That's the thing.

[20:34] Conrad Ricamora: It's like this the show is so visceral in a way that no other show that I've ever done is that it really um and I keep coming back to this word like implicated, like the the the audience is there's no separate because it's not proscenium, like the audience you're the audience is a character in the show.

[20:55] Conrad Ricamora: You become the the you become the country of the the population of the Philippines, uh and uh for good and bad.

[21:03] Conrad Ricamora: Uh and um and uh I just say like uh I don't even want to say that uh my own personal message because it's gonna be personal for everyone be it it can't help but be personal because you are in the action you are part of the you are partaking in in the play you're partaking in the story yeah um and it's how people come whatever people come away with is gonna be really personal I think yeah uh you've got a TV show coming out later this year can you tell us a little bit about it yeah uh yeah it's called How to Another How to Show it's uh oh yeah uh How Alone um and uh I I've been following Natasha Rothwell's career for so long I've just thought she always anytime she's ever been in anything I've been like that person has got something special to say yeah we should say for folks who don't moon might not recognize her name they will probably recognize her from a very memorable role on White Lotus she was in Insecure she's gonna be back in season three of White Lotus uh she's like a writer and a performer yeah she's lead on the next season of White Lotus.

[22:20] Gordon Cox: Yeah yeah even she was courting on the on the um first season what is your role in the show I play her game okay all right um yeah and we both work at JFK uh at the airport and uh I play like a trust fund kid who has it's also been fun to play this character because I've a lot of times I've played a a lot of characters that have got their lives together in this character so messy and so all over the place that doesn't which was really a lot of fun.

[22:55] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[22:57] Gordon Cox: You've made it clear in a lot of interviews that representation is very important to you, both sort of Asian American representation and queer representation.

[23:05] Conrad Ricamora: Can you tell us a little bit about how that guides the choices you make in your career?

[23:10] Conrad Ricamora: Uh you know, honestly, I feel like it's taken care of itself.

[23:15] Conrad Ricamora: Um that uh and but it but it's also been great because a lot of times I feel like when actors are starting out in in like their careers, and especially when they're thinking about Hollywood, whatever that means, like uh they want to I there's this weird sense that people like the end goal is like a Marvel superhero.

[23:42] Conrad Ricamora: And like the the ideas of like I don't want to come out, or people uh uh want to don't want to be thought of as like a gay actor because then they're just gonna get gay roles, and I'm like, yeah, but like even gay people are so different, and there's uh variety, so much variety within uh the characters that exist in the LGBTQ community that I'm like if I played uh queer characters for the rest of my life, I would be so happy because you would still be able to play a variety of people.

[24:18] Conrad Ricamora: It's not like you're just playing, like even this character that Natasha has written is something like I feel like is not what people think of as like stereotypical gay, even though I feel like that's starting to get broken down more because we are getting a lot more queer story, and so people are being introduced to uh that there is no like gay character that doesn't exist.

[24:43] Gordon Cox: Right, right um so I feel within like I'm I'm getting to to play a variety of characters that express themselves in very different ways.

[24:54] Gordon Cox: Just to be clear you're not turning down preemptively an offer for Marvel for a superhero role.

[24:59] Conrad Ricamora: I'm talking more about like the psychology of of a lot of like actors that I think that that when they start thinking about their careers it's like uh you start actually limiting yourself if you are just looking to find some some idea of success in your head whatever that is you start then narrowing your own choices your own abilities your own blah blah blah blah XYZ yeah yeah uh you pretty recently played Seymour for a little bit off pro in the off Broadway production of Little Shop of Horrors and now you're back on stage in Here Lies Love what keeps bringing you back to theater honestly I just want to work I've always like like honestly it's it's uh I'm I again I'm I don't feel like if completely honest I'm not like you know uh a level of like success or monetary success where it's like I pick this and I pick that and I pick this and I say no to this.

[26:02] Conrad Ricamora: Um just I'm just wanting to keep it real like uh especially if people are actors out there that are there watch I know because I used to love listening actor interviews and hearing about their careers and their craft and all of that kind of stuff.

[26:18] Conrad Ricamora: So uh um uh yeah, it's I'm still um uh taking most that I get offered.

[26:30] Conrad Ricamora: It happens to be stuff that I really love.

[26:33] Gordon Cox: Do you connect to theater work in a different way from uh you know your work on screen for film and TV?

[26:40] Gordon Cox: Is there a different thing that you get from each uh form that you work in?

[26:46] Conrad Ricamora: Oh, yeah, there's nothing like breathing the same air as a live audience every night.

[26:51] Conrad Ricamora: Like you can't replicate that type of connection of being in a room um with with the audience and feeling their energy uh with you.

[27:02] Conrad Ricamora: Uh something you can't don't get in TV and film.

[27:06] Conrad Ricamora: I love the nuance that you get uh uh through uh TV and film um, you know, because of close up uh uh but uh yeah, the shared experience, the communal experience of theater is something that I will never want to ever give up.

[27:23] Conrad Ricamora: I will always keep coming back to.

[27:24] Conrad Ricamora: It's so special.

[27:26] Conrad Ricamora: And also, you know that like when you're what you do on stage is what the audience sees.

[27:32] Conrad Ricamora: There's so many times in TV and film that you're like, oh, my favorite part of what I did was completely edited out.

[27:40] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[27:40] Gordon Cox: Um and in in theater, it's like you are in control of what you're doing, even though you're collaborating with the directors and all that.

[27:47] Gordon Cox: Right, right.

[27:48] Gordon Cox: And and what uh what are you most looking forward to about uh the opening night of Here Lies Love?

[27:57] Conrad Ricamora: I like treating opening as just another show.

[28:01] Conrad Ricamora: I I honestly feel like sometimes openings and premieres and stuff are like, oh, I don't I don't love when we all get together in the industry and pat each other on the back.

[28:11] Conrad Ricamora: It's like we do I do it for people that are coming from like the Midwest or coming from uh, you know, Delaware to see the show.

[28:21] Conrad Ricamora: Like that's who I want to do all these things for.

[28:25] Conrad Ricamora: It's like, and then I want to go home and live my like my own life.

[28:29] Conrad Ricamora: Like it's like uh I mean it's exciting and it's fun.

[28:33] Conrad Ricamora: I I really do love storytelling.

[28:36] Conrad Ricamora: And sometimes I think that gets lost when we celebrate ourselves in the well then enjoy all the previews and performances and uh the opening and your dad's visit and all of that stuff.

[28:49] Gordon Cox: Um thanks so much for chatting with me, Conrad.

[28:55] Gordon Cox: That was Conrad Ricamora, now starring in Here Lies Love at the Broadway Theater.

[29:01] Gordon Cox: If you enjoyed this conversation and others I've had here on Stagecraft, I'd be so grateful if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts.

[29:10] Gordon Cox: It really helps.

[29:11] Gordon Cox: Or tell a friend about Stagecraft.

[29:13] Gordon Cox: Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[29:21] Gordon Cox: A great place to find more theater for your ears.

[29:24] Gordon Cox: Until next episode, find me on Twitter at G Cox Variety.

[29:27] Gordon Cox: Thanks for listening and see you at the theater.