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[0:00] Janelle Riley: Welcome to a special edition of Stagecraft. What is your passion? I'm Janelle Riley. You may know me as a writer for Variety, but what you may not know is that I'm obsessed with The Princess Bride, Pitbull Rescue, and Scrabble.

[0:18] Janelle Riley: And today I'm here with a man who understands obsession well. He has played the thwarted heir to the throne, Loki, in four previous Marvel movies.

[0:27] Janelle Riley: His fifth appearance as the God of Mischief premieres in theatres this week when Avengers: Infinity War opens. Please welcome Tom Hiddleston.

[0:35] Tom Hiddleston: Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction.

[0:39] Janelle Riley: I'm so glad you're here because I'm really worried no one is going to go see Infinity War.

[0:44] Tom Hiddleston: We'll see. We'll see. I'm not counting any chickens. It sounds odd to mention chickens. I don't think there are any chickens in Infinity War.

[0:53] Janelle Riley: That's the one thing that's not credited on the poster.

[0:56] Tom Hiddleston: No chickens were harmed in the making of this movie. Yeah, I'm excited about it. As I speak to you now, I have not seen it yet.

[1:03] Janelle Riley: That's so crazy to me. Do you want to know who dies? Because I'll tell you.

[1:07] Tom Hiddleston: You tell me. It's an Infinity War that goes on for infinity.

[1:12] Janelle Riley: I was going to joke and say just tell us everything that happens in the movie.

[1:17] Tom Hiddleston: But I would love to. The best thing about it is I don't know. I sincerely don't know.

[1:23] Tom Hiddleston: I didn't read a real script. I didn't read a fake script. I didn't see a script. I haven't seen the film. All I know is the things that I did on the set.

[1:33] Tom Hiddleston: And I will keep my mouth buttoned. But yeah, I'm so excited to watch the film because it feels kind of unprecedented.

[1:43] Janelle Riley: It does. I can't remember this having ever happened. And it's funny listening to people kind of grumble about how like, well, no one's even seen the movie. And I'm like, we're in the same boat as like Chris Evans. I think that's kind of cool.

[1:55] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, yeah. And the rest of the world will all see it at the same time.

[1:58] Janelle Riley: Stars. They're just like us. Literally.

[2:01] Tom Hiddleston: They really are. Let me tell you they are.

[2:04] Janelle Riley: So I was trying to think of things that I associate with you when I think of the things that you're passionate about. And I've already mentioned puns.

[2:11] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, very passionate.

[2:14] Janelle Riley: But we've also agreed that there's no way I could sit here for an hour and listen to that.

[2:18] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, yes.

[2:20] Janelle Riley: So the other thing that came to mind is William Shakespeare.

[2:23] Tom Hiddleston: Indeed. Close companion.

[2:26] Janelle Riley: Now that might be because I saw you. The first time I saw you was in a production of Coriolanus in 2004 at the Donmar Warehouse. And just last year, you returned to the stage to play Hamlet.

[2:37] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, I did.

[2:39] Janelle Riley: Under the direction of Kenneth Branagh. And also, I'll tell you the moment that I think I realized, I mean, I always sort of knew, but when I really knew that you were a lot smarter than me.

[2:49] Tom Hiddleston: I'm not. I really am not. Shakespeare is smarter than both of us. I can tell you that for sure.

[2:55] Janelle Riley: We were talking about, or I was talking about Revenge.

[2:59] Tom Hiddleston: Yes.

[3:00] Janelle Riley: And I quoted, as an example of how I feel about Revenge, I quoted Homer Simpson.

[3:05] Tom Hiddleston: Yes.

[3:06] Janelle Riley: And then you quoted Hamlet.

[3:07] Tom Hiddleston: Did I? What did I say?

[3:10] Janelle Riley: Revenge is a fool's errand.

[3:12] Tom Hiddleston: It is a fool's errand.

[3:13] Janelle Riley: Yes. And you're absolutely right.

[3:16] Tom Hiddleston: It gets you nothing. And Hamlet is really about that. And, and I found it, I didn't know that. I mean, the interesting thing about playing Hamlet, let's, let's just start.

[3:30] Janelle Riley: Yes, please.

[3:32] Tom Hiddleston: Is that as an actor, one is so aware of the size of the play and the significance of the role. It's sort of, it's like a silhouette that you get to step into. And you're aware of the famous speeches and you're aware of the number of things that were coined in the English language in that play.

[3:55] Tom Hiddleston: And, and then when you approach playing it, you have to meet the play head on and confront it. And then you realize you the story of the play, the play itself is such a great thriller. And it really is a it's about revenge.

[4:16] Tom Hiddleston: A young man grieving for his departed father is lost, lonely, isolated, grief stricken, probably depressed, intensely alone, heartbroken, vulnerable, and he's visited by his father's ghost, who reveals that he didn't die in the orchard. He was murdered by his brother, the now incumbent King of Denmark, Claudius, and he is tasked with enacting revenge on his father's behalf.

[4:44] Tom Hiddleston: And then the whole play is it's in plot terms, whether Hamlet can find the courage and conviction to do it to bring to be his father's avenger, so to speak, so to speak.

[5:09] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah. And, and what happens is it only brings him ruin. It brings ruin to him and to all he loves. And so, and in a way, you know, it's genius plot construction on Shakespeare's part, because he doesn't give Hamlet enough time to think.

[5:32] Tom Hiddleston: Hamlet is kind of hurtling through the play without he's desperate for the time to think he keeps questioning and those soliloquies really are lengthy, kind of inquiring, curious, investigative speeches involving the audience saying, Can I do this?

[5:53] Tom Hiddleston: In one of the speeches, he asks them directly, Am I a coward? Who calls me villain? Breaks my pate across, plucks off my beard and blows it in my face, takes me by the nose, gives me the line, the throat as deep as the lungs, who does me this, huh? And he's trying to find the courage and conviction to actually do it.

[6:10] Tom Hiddleston: And I thought Kenneth Branagh and I talked about it a lot. You know, you sort of unstitch the play in investigating it before you put it back together. And it seemed to both of us that there is a really solitary lesson in it, which is that actually revenge, an eye for an eye is, is a cul-de-sac.

[6:36] Tom Hiddleston: It only makes things worse. And he doesn't, it's only later actually in Shakespeare's plays that he starts to examine the nature of forgiveness, I think.

[6:48] Janelle Riley: Interesting.

[7:02] Tom Hiddleston: And, you know, Othello, Othello doesn't get to forgive Iago. He's gone. And, and so yeah, it's a really interesting idea of revenge versus forgiveness in Hamlet. Anyway, Hamlet's about lots of things. Hamlet is about having played it. And this is actually the first time I've talked about it.

[7:22] Janelle Riley: I know, I've actually been so curious, because for people who don't know, this was a production done by RADA.

[7:29] Tom Hiddleston: Yes. So, so devised by Kenneth Branagh and myself. He and I have long talked about playing the, doing the play together. We just didn't know how and where to do it.

[7:58] Tom Hiddleston: And we both feel very strongly about, feel very grateful to RADA, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, where he trained, where I trained, and wanted to do something to support the school and the academy.

[8:19] Tom Hiddleston: And also, there's a new campaign called the Attenborough Campaign. And it is essentially, it's about equal opportunity, and restructuring the existing premises for training. It's actually quite a large sum they need to raise in order to build the building.

[8:43] Tom Hiddleston: And we thought we could do this production. And RADA would get, you know, a huge fundraising opportunity. But we also would get to go back to school. And, and the academy just generously blew open its doors and we were able to go to voice classes and, and the man who taught me stage and screen combat, choreographed the fight between Hamlet and Laertes.

[8:57] Tom Hiddleston: And some of the company about maybe 60 to 70% of the company were former RADA students. Lolita Chakrabarty played Gertrude. Caroline Martin played Horatio. Oh, that was the other thing we did.

[9:21] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, we decided to, there were 10 actors, five men, five women, completely spread across the board 50/50. Famously, Shakespeare wrote many, many parts for men and less parts for women, but we were going to have a completely kind of 50/50 cast.

[9:41] Tom Hiddleston: And we made that decision before even interpreting what those decisions might reveal about characters. So Horatio became Horatia and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern became Rosercrantz and Guildenstern. And so you suddenly what happens is the people who are closest to Hamlet are all women.

[10:11] Janelle Riley: Oh, wow.

[10:11] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah.

[10:35] Tom Hiddleston: But perhaps we'll come back to that. What I found about Hamlet is, and I didn't talk about it before playing the part, and there was a reason for it, was I had an intermotion of how confronting and complex the play is, and how much of it and how much of a spiritual challenge it is to the actor in one way.

[10:35] Tom Hiddleston: It's very confronting, because there's almost no character there. There are just deep, profound examinations of certain themes. It's the experience of being alive, of sadness, of grief, of friendship, of romantic love, of what it means to be a son, to have a mother and a father, to have responsibility, to have status.

[11:05] Tom Hiddleston: It's an examination of death. And the Grave Digger scene is one of the most profound and lighthearted sort of almost presentations of the inevitability of death for all of us.

[11:17] Tom Hiddleston: And at that time of the play, Hamlet is coming to an acceptance that death comes to us all. And it's profoundly humbling for him because he sees Yorick's, the King's Jester's, skull and remembers him well.

[11:35] Tom Hiddleston: And then he wonders if Alexander the Great had come to the same conclusions. And of course, that's what happened. And he says, to what base uses we may return, Horatio? Why may not imagination trace the noble dust of Alexander in the dust? Alexander died. Alexander was buried. Alexander returneth to dust.

[11:58] Tom Hiddleston: It's almost like there's a refrain in Cymbeline in another funeral scene.

[12:05] Tom Hiddleston: Fear no more the heat of the sun, nor the furious winter's rages. Thou thy worldly task has done, home art gone, attain thy wages. Golden lads and girls, all must, as chimney sweepers, come to dust.

[12:21] Tom Hiddleston: And there's a kind of a beautiful meditative resignation that is this in encountering the inevitability of death. There's an instigation of life that actually some relationship with death that is peaceful makes you feel more alive.

[12:46] Tom Hiddleston: And there's wisdom in that. And just having to play that scene is a privilege because you have to actually sit in that thinking space. You asked me a question, I'll answer it. I've been talking for a while.

[12:59] Janelle Riley: No, I'm so curious because obviously this was your first time back on stage since Coriolanus. It's Horatia, it's Kenneth Branagh. You did it in what I believe is a 169 seat theater. What was the logic behind that? Or you wanted to do an intimate production or you just wanted it to be special?

[13:19] Tom Hiddleston: And that was the largest theatre that they have. But we did reconfigure the seating. It's a proscenium arch theatre. Basic stage, actors on one side, audience on the other. Like a conventional idea of a theatre. And what we did was, I was very keen to make it, we reconfigured the theatre so it was more like a courtyard. And actually there was a thrust stage, so we built a part of the stage that went over the first few rows of seats. And then we replaced those seats and put them on the stage. So it was rather like the stage was a horseshoe and the audience was sitting in the horseshoe. And they were very close to the action. And I knew that that was going to give us two things. It was going to give me nowhere to hide, which I love as an actor.

I'm a sucker for punishment. And it was also going to give them nowhere to hide. I know because I spoke to people who saw it. They felt like they were immersed in the action. They weren't outside the action watching it. They became a part of it. And also the stage pictures you could make. You start to stretch things onto the more diagonal angle and dimension. Which means, and this is unique to theatre and different from cinema, is that the audience gets to choose where to look. So with film, the director is leading you and where you want to look. Look at this actor's eyes. Look at this wide shot. This is the perspective I want you to see. Whereas on the theatre, every individual audience member can choose to listen to the speaker or the listener or the person standing at the back.

And the kind of pictures you can make in a courtyard theatre or more like a horseshoe shape are I think more interesting. There's only like three rows on each side, isn't it? It was really tight. Three rows in the stalls and then more in the circle. It was very, very, very intimate.

[15:00] Gordon Cox: Can you see people's faces? I'm going to assume nobody was falling asleep, but that has happened to me on stage before.

[15:06] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, people were definitely awake. Especially when the swords are swishing right past them. Oh my God, right. No, honestly, that intimacy felt like a privilege because, again, there's a responsibility on me because of their proximity to be 100% in the moment and as absolutely truthful and committed as I can be. There's no winging it on a matinee. Not that I ever do that. And also responsibility on the audience because there was just something very honest about it. I really in those soliloquies, which I think are some of the most eloquent writing in the English language, was able to simply talk to them and look at them and ask them every night. And I genuinely, it sounds probably trite and sentimental and overly poetic, but it's a genuine honour night after night to stare out at a group of faces and ask them to be or not to be, that is the question.

And with a really simple internal curiosity to include them in those investigations. Do you think it's preferable, as it were, he didn't write this, but do you think sitting in row B, seat B20, do you think it's preferable to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them? What do you think? And there was something really immediate and vital about that, which I loved.

[17:29] Tom Hiddleston: And what happens is you realise you're in a feedback loop with the audience and they don't know it. They don't know that they are giving as much to the occasion as we are as a company.

[17:45] Gordon Cox: They don't shout out, do they?

[17:47] Tom Hiddleston: That happens here in America shockingly a lot. And it's really interesting because the more and more, the more often we performed it, the simpler the investigation became. So it did change because you performed it for three weeks.

[18:05] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, three and a half in the end, yes. I can't believe we did 30 performances, I think.

[18:09] Gordon Cox: 30 in total, yeah. And for those of you who couldn't get a ticket, he's going to perform a monologue right now.

[18:14] Tom Hiddleston: Which one would you like?

[18:16] Gordon Cox: Are you serious? You probably have them all memorised.

[18:18] Tom Hiddleston: I did some of them. I did some of to be or not to be just then. I was curious too because that is obviously such an iconic soliloquy for good reason. Do you avoid other people's versions of it?

[18:29] Tom Hiddleston: I have seen it many times and you can't avoid it. You can't, you literally can't. Wait a second, and your director has played Hamlet.

[18:36] Gordon Cox: But that was so great.

[18:38] Tom Hiddleston: Listen, I sit before you playing Loki for the fifth time and the reason I played Loki for the first time is Kenneth Branagh. That's right. He's been more influential and sort of into my life than anyone else in the industry, I think. And he's my friend and I'm proud to call him such. And to have him guide me through it was an honour. But also he was so respectful of my approach that it was my first time. And that even in our mutual collaboration, we were making something new. And we talked about it extensively like almost every day or every couple of days for weeks and weeks and weeks before we started rehearsing. And it's like a dream. You have a container for each of our thoughts about the world at that moment.

[19:39] Tom Hiddleston: And, you know, there was a Kendrick Lamar track in the production.

[19:46] Gordon Cox: I love that.

[19:48] Tom Hiddleston: Kendrick Lamar who just won a Pulitzer Prize.

[19:50] Gordon Cox: Yes, indeed.

[19:52] Tom Hiddleston: I don't want to say you guys are responsible for that, but it's a coincidence.

[19:55] Gordon Cox: No, absolutely not. It's interesting. I was listening to him on my way back from Ragnarok reshoots, which were just before I started rehearsing. And there's this terrific track, I. And I just was a track that I was particularly like listening to a lot. And then we were in rehearsals thinking about the relationship between Hamlet, Rosicrucians and Guildenstern. These two people who he was at Wittenberg with at university. So he's got these two friends. They're not quite as close as Horatio, certainly not as close as Ophelia. And you have to make a choice because you have to quickly establish what this relationship is between Hamlet and his university pals. And we sort of decided that they come paid by Claudius and Gertrude to come to Elsinore and cheer up the gloomy Dane.

[20:51] Tom Hiddleston: The other working title for Hamlet. Guildenstern came in with a literally a Beats bill or a portable speaker and playing out of which was playing Kendrick Lamar's I. And they did a little dance and you got the sense of like, oh, this is what they do at university. They go out and they dance together and they're fun. And so these two characters actually are liked and they bring him fun. But maybe it's not deep friendship. Maybe it's a sort of slightly more superficial. They go out, they go dancing, they have a good time. But they're not as close as his soulmate Horatio or something. He does say that to Horatio at some point. He said, what's that line?

[21:40] Tom Hiddleston: Give me that soul that is not passion slave and I will wear her in my heart's core, nay in my heart of hearts as I do thee.

[21:47] Gordon Cox: Yeah, there you go, everyone. I just saved you $20.

[21:50] Tom Hiddleston: Tickets were like ridiculously cheap, weren't they?

[21:53] Gordon Cox: Tickets were really cheap.

[21:55] Tom Hiddleston: And they were done through this fantastic ballot system.

[21:58] Gordon Cox: Oh, it's fantastic for you. But for those of us who couldn't get tickets, I'm sorry.

[22:02] Tom Hiddleston: I did feel bad about it. No, I mean, it's it actually literally is the great equalizer. It's kind of brilliant. But now, of course, everybody wants to know if you might do this show again sometime.

[22:13] Tom Hiddleston: It's a good question. At this time, I have not had a single conversation with Ken about it. And that's God's honest truth. We did it. It was it felt like a very fulfilling and meaningful experience for both of us and for all of us. The entire company would share that sentiment. And I haven't thought about how to do it again. It's hard because it was so it was so special. And I know the people who got to see it, what they loved about it was the intimacy. And I don't know how. Of course, what you gain on the swing is you lose on the roundabouts. You gain this incredibly intimate experience for me, for the company, for the audience. But because it's intimate, it means less people can see it. So I don't know how you marry that unless you broadcast it. But the Vanburgh didn't the theater didn't have that facility. And if we had broadcast, it would have meant taking people out of the seats. So we thought that's just it's a theatrical experience. Let's keep it as one.

[23:14] Gordon Cox: Did it create any problems, though, with like your friends and family all jockeying for tickets?

[23:18] Tom Hiddleston: We had a dress rehearsal and all the friends and family came to that one. And I'm not sure it was the best show, actually, by any means. I think I was still kind of I personally felt like I was still swimming in the shallow end.

[23:33] Gordon Cox: Oh, interesting. When did you feel like you I don't want to say connected, but finally fully.

[23:38] Tom Hiddleston: I was definitely connecting. But there's something I mean, this is a sort of slightly inside baseball thing. But there's something about and you'll know this, too, where the first time I did a run through of Hamlet. And we did it on the first on the first Friday. So after the first week of rehearsals, Ken just said, we're going to run it. And he took me aside and said, you're going to feel insane because you can't believe how much more momentum there is in the play. It just is just it's like an engine and it's running and you have to be in control of that engine. And the first time you do it, you are. I felt like a headless chicken. I don't know why chickens have become a running theme of this podcast, but I did.

Because you're you're so stunned by how quickly speeches follow each other or, you know, the scenes follow each other. You're like this bit and then it's this bit. And the part of you is an actor that wants to be in control of what you're doing. You know, even if it's just mechanical stuff, entrances and exits, props, lighting cues, the kind of technical craft of theatre performance that takes a while to settle. And then once that becomes automatic, you start to sort of it's it's very strange. It's like the experience of time slowing down and you have more control over because that mechanical technical stuff has become second nature. The play starts to settle in your unconscious and you know what's next automatically, which means you have more time without adding time to go deep into yourself. And and and experience the intensity of what Hamlet is going through.

[25:28] Tom Hiddleston: I mean, Shakespeare obviously isn't easy. But have you ever gone up on your lines or experienced stage fright?

[25:36] Tom Hiddleston: There was one line in that in the show. It's one of my it's one I think the one of the most beautiful speeches in the play where he is asking this before the duel. And he's asked Hamlet is asking Laertes for forgiveness for inadvertently killing his father Polonius. And Laertes comes back from France rightly full of righteous anger because also his sister has drowned. He's having a rough day.

[26:05] Gordon Cox: He's having a terrible day, poor Laertes.

[26:07] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah. And Hamlet apologizes and confesses his madness. Was Hamlet wrong, Laertes? If Hamlet from himself be tamed away and when he's not himself does wrong, Laertes, Hamlet does is not. Who does it then? His madness. His madness is poor Hamlet's enemy. And then he says a bit later in the speech, he says, sir, in this audience in front of the court. Sir, in this audience, let my disclaiming from a purposed evil free me so far.

[26:37] Tom Hiddleston: In your most generous thoughts that I have shot my arrow or the house and hurt my brother and it's deeply sincere and I find it very beautiful that he's just apologizing he's owning up to it and he's saying I've hurt my brother I love you I always have I never meant to hurt you and I know I've done wrong and one night I just my articulatory system was not quite working articulatory articulatory is a word yeah it really is cool I told you you were smarter than me no no it's just it's just it's just a long word my I got my words in a jumble should we say and I found myself saying so in this audience uh let my disclaiming from a purposed evil free me so far in your most generous shorts and realized I had said I was referring to Laertes immaculately generous shorts and I felt the entire company in this very sincere moment start to shake um and because it's live you can't go back yeah um yeah and Irfan Shamji playing Laertes it was his first job at Arada bless him he just he did an amazing job of keeping a straight face oh that's amazing who knew Hamlet was a comedy I know it's funny though it is funny Hamlet is remarkably funny hilarious lines and not just Rosencrantz and Guildenstern how many times have you seen it can I every once in a while when I give interviews an embarrassing part of my past comes up I was Guildenstern in a college production yes so I know this is very familiar I mean I don't want to say I was better than yours but I'm pretty sure the reason that we couldn't fill 169 seats is uh isn't it amazing though I'm sorry I'm getting a bit lost talking about it but it's uh isn't it an amazing play it's it was the first Shakespeare I ever saw and it's my second favorite it's my first of the tragedies it's my favorite of the tragedies but my favorite favorite is Much Ado About Nothing which is beautiful yeah oh what's your favorite I don't know it's tricky because I feel like I feel in the in my introduction um the introduction to my passion and this podcast is about passion after all was Othello um and it was because I was doing the uh the play for my A-level English literature and at the same time I was doing A-level theater studies and we were taken to see Sam Mendes production at the National Theater I wonder what happened to him um never heard of him and uh with David Harewood as Othello I saw this production yeah and Simon Russell Beale as Iago and I I was blown clean away I just I understood it I connected with it it was it was as alive as any piece of art I'd ever seen and um that began a kind of that sort of opened my eyes to what Shakespeare could be it suddenly became and this is so important I think for people because at school it seems dusty and stuffy and scary and incomprehensible and over there and it belongs in a library with academics with horn rim spectacles and it's not for me and actually it's not that at all it's like it's alive and it's um vital and it's electrifying and it's present and it's for everyone and it was the first moment for me and I understood that I was going to ask you if uh you know your interest in acting came first your interest in Shakespeare but you you knew you wanted to be an actor at a young age I don't know I mean it's when I think of my childhood I think of I think probably of like many actors of my age all those sort of era defining films like um the Indiana Jones movies E.T. um uh Back to the Future I totally thought you were going to name like a bunch of Ken Loach movies right right right no but as in as a child like those are the movies you connect to and they're in a Jurassic Park and they're all directed by Spielberg it seems like um and I don't know if I could locate in that moment I I'd have to go back in time I can't go back in time I am not sadly Doctor Strange um but I definitely was interested in film and then and really it was at school um possibly even doing Shakespeare that I started to love acting um when I was about 13 or 14 um we did a production of Time and of Athens wait when you were 13 yeah I know it's calling isn't it can I tell you something really cool off topic um my theater company did a production of Time and of Athens starring Jon Hamm amazing before he was Jon Hamm amazing he was this goofy good looking guy who uh wore wife beaters to the theater and was super sweet to everyone I'm sure yeah yeah by the way it's a really underappreciated play it's a fantastic play yeah yeah yeah um and I played the old servant Flavius oh no did you have to paint and wrinkles on your face I did I painted wrinkles and I had a fake beard my beard today is real I can assure you 13 years old yeah yeah and then I don't think I did Shakespeare again I think I performed it until I was at university um and I played Romeo oh really yes um and a lot in a very I remember that production very fondly um it was all set in a kind of Fellini style Italy oh lots of color and sort of um that sort of slightly mad not mad but that slightly um carnival energy that you see in some of those films I think Romeo um people think I'm crazy when I say that I think Romeo and Juliet are two of the hardest roles in the theater because especially as I get older you know I'm like oh stop whining yeah and so I'm always impressed when I see a really great production I think the best interpretation is is still the Baz Luhrmann film um I really do I think it's a that was a that was another eye-opener for me I must have been 15 or 16 when that film came out and uh so to me when I think of Leonardo DiCaprio I think I think of Romeo often as part of his like that's kind of part of his um his persona in my mind and he is so good at it I mean honestly they both are yeah um so the first time you performed you know the words for an audience professionally was it Cymbeline uh yes that was 2007 2007 yes you're absolutely right years yeah yes yeah um I loved Cymbeline it was a uh Cheek by Jowl production I love just the name of that company I don't I don't know if that is in reference to something Cheek by Jowl is from a Shakespeare play and I can't remember maybe it's from Twelfth Night you're looking at me it might not be the moment from another one um and I I don't know if I'm correct in that presumption uh but but they have been doing two um partners director and designer direct Declan Donilon and Nicole Murad have been running Cheek by Jowl for over 25 years now and they start they've started the careers of many many um actors you've heard of Michael Sheen Adrian Lester Matthew McFadyen who else Helen McCrory I think am I right um Saskia Reeves they they've they've sort of and they've been doing this a long time and they feel very much like a European company and we rehearsed in London and they also have worked they've worked all over the world they've worked in in France with with French acting companies in Russia with Russian companies and we rehearsed in London and we toured all over the world for London and we toured all over the world for five months so we played in in Paris Luxembourg uh Brussels Milan BAM in New York Reykjavik Moscow Madrid Barcelona London I think that's it I'm always curious about how because Shakespeare seems so universal but did audiences react differently London were the worst yeah wait London was the worst well London's London's sort of uh I mean this as a Londoner Londoners are sort of spoiled for choice so they can they can see Shakespeare every night if they want whereas it's that not doesn't happen so often that an English company comes to I don't know to Madrid in the summer and performs a Shakespeare play so they are they're hungry for that so the so the London audience we found the coolest they were appreciative and I'm being mean about London but I can because I'm a Londoner like I couldn't say that but you have to say that definitely definitely different audiences for sure um very very passionate in Spain I love doing it we did it in uh in um a theater called Teatro Español in Madrid and because it's a long hot Spanish summer it's actually just too hot if you go if the show goes up at 7 p.m. so the shows go up at 9 which means you come down at 11 30 and we could spill out into the square and have tapas you know but that's how they live that's so great yeah uh speaking of Simon Russell Beale he's in this movie Death of Stalin I don't know if you've seen it I haven't seen it yet I'm ashamed to admit yeah um but it's interesting because I was talking to Armando Iannucci last night and he was talking about playing it all over the world and it gets a great response but like some people are like this movie is not funny it's the best movie I've ever seen and then other people like can't stop laughing yeah yeah it just depends on where you go where you go I feel like Shakespeare is just so universally revered that he must get respect wherever he goes but maybe that's not the case well it's something if you do it in a dusty way then maybe people find it boring but that's been the great education for me is that it isn't it just is so malleable and it speaks to every generation in a new way and it speaks to every moment um and um I found just going back to Hamlet for a second there is a we set it in a ostensibly a modern dress production yes this one was not stuffy this was you did a boy band number no no no I did it but no that was Cymbeline I did that yeah yeah no Hamlet was modern dress oh I'm sorry you're talking about yeah and um the idea was that Hamlet is is a man who exists right now in in the world as it is which is confusing and destabilizing and um we I think the sort of external world feels like it's on shaky ground and we thought that was good for Hamlet um to be in his own private turmoil but also in a world that is rich misshapen um and Claudius was you know in a position of of political office um and people weren't sure whether to trust him and all that sort of stuff but but the other thing that's kind of often overlooked in Hamlet is that the political situation is um the Fortinbras is coming a war is imminent and that is somehow creates an extra pressure from without Hamlet has all these pressures from within his father's ghost his own doubt his own cruelty his rage and loneliness but then suddenly the idea that he is a prince of a realm which is under siege from Fortinbras and just before his banishment to England there's a speech he gives how all occasions do inform against me and um Kenneth Branagh had a fantastic idea which is to with the sound design fighter jets flew uh from the from the back of the theater but essentially over the heads of the audience as if they were flying to a foreign war zone and we turned the volume right up and it was very very loud very intrusive and very disruptive but the that speech is about Hamlet confronting that the world is spinning forward and the events are continuing to happen and he still hasn't um avenged his father uh and he starts asking these profound questions what is a man if his chief good and market of his time be but to sleep and feed a beast no more sure he that made us with such large discourse looking before and after gave us not that capability and godlike reason to fuss in us unused and he says you know how stand I then that have a father killed a mother stained incitements of my reason and my blood and let all sleep water my shame I see the imminent death of twenty thousand men that for a fantasy or trick of fame go to their graves like beds um and sorry I find myself slipping into just a question

[40:56] Tom Hiddleston: The value of life, I think, is something that is deeply personal and subjective. It can be measured in many ways, whether it's through our relationships, our experiences, or the impact we have on others.

[41:56] Tom Hiddleston: For me, the value of life is about connection, the moments we share with people we love, and the stories we create together.

[42:26] Tom Hiddleston: It's also about the pursuit of understanding and knowledge, the quest to find meaning in our existence.

[42:44] Tom Hiddleston: Life is a journey, and each person's journey is unique, filled with challenges and triumphs that shape who we are.

[42:56] Tom Hiddleston: Ultimately, I believe the value of life lies in how we choose to live it, the choices we make, and the legacy we leave behind.

[43:13] Tom Hiddleston: It's a question that invites reflection, and I think it's important to engage with it throughout our lives.

[43:41] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[44:11] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[44:41] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[45:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[45:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[46:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[46:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[47:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[47:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[48:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[48:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[49:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[49:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[50:07] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[50:37] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[50:47] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[51:17] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[51:47] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[52:17] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[52:46] Tom Hiddleston: What do you think the value of life is?

[53:15] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, I got the eye. Um, it's all right, we'll just keep going. No, no, my fault. Because I can, I'm going on for too long and you should ask, you should speak more. Uh, yeah, no, everybody's here to hear my voice. By my reckoning, we have 15 more minutes on this watch.

[53:29] Gordon Cox: Oh, really?

[53:30] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah. The watch, the watch doesn't lie.

[53:33] Gordon Cox: Um, actually, I do want to ask you something, and we'll edit this out if you think this is too cheesy. Did I put it over here? Oh, okay. So, it has, it has been said. You know what's coming, don't you? You see what I'm doing?

[53:45] Tom Hiddleston: I think I do, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. You can make anything sound amazing. So, I have, I don't know if people remember dictionaries, but more than 200,000 clear, concise definitions. By the way, do you play Scrabble with a dictionary? Very important question.

[54:00] Gordon Cox: That would be cheating. No, because sometimes, no, you don't have, you don't use a dictionary, but if somebody says, can I put down this?

[54:08] Tom Hiddleston: Oh, you check it?

[54:09] Gordon Cox: And you check it. And then you forfeit points if it's not a word.

[54:11] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, by dictionary, you mean an online app.

[54:16] Gordon Cox: I see, I see, I see. Yes, I've got an app. I've actually only played Scrabble only a week or two ago with a dictionary on the table.

[54:26] Tom Hiddleston: Like one that's old school?

[54:28] Gordon Cox: Yeah, old school. You know what's funny is most people I play with are British, and it throws me off because of the extra use.

[54:34] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And I have to keep going like, is that a real word? Or is it just used as it is? You were like honour and rigour and colour.

[54:43] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah, and I always want to like press the button that says like to argue with it. But you use only one point, isn't it? As a vowel?

[54:50] Tom Hiddleston: I think on Words with Friends, it's two.

[54:52] Gordon Cox: Is it? Now proper Scrabble is one.

[54:54] Tom Hiddleston: Okay. Yeah, I can bust out the real geekiness. Anyway, you are welcome to open to any page. We are apparently ostensibly both as passionate about Scrabble as we are about Shakespeare, which is excellent.

[55:04] Gordon Cox: But obviously, you know more about both.

[55:08] Tom Hiddleston: No, I really don't. I must debunk this crazy myth. Crazy theory. I don't know much. I don't really don't know much about Shakespeare. I just love it. Do you know, I'm sure you do, the theory that he didn't write his own plays?

[55:18] Gordon Cox: I do.

[55:19] Tom Hiddleston: And in fact, I loved that play, the role in the film, the role in the film. I loved it too. Anonymous, yeah.

[55:25] Gordon Cox: Okay, I'll tell you something. I saw that play, I saw that movie the same day I saw another movie that went on to win many Oscars. And when I, coming out of those two films, I was like, I bet on the wrong horse. I thought Anonymous was going to sweep everything.

[55:38] Tom Hiddleston: Well, here's a question. It is actually something that I've had to think about, because in Jim Jarmusch's Only Love Is Left Alive.

[55:49] Gordon Cox: Never heard of it.

[55:51] Tom Hiddleston: Jim Jarmusch, Jim is a Marlovian. He thinks that, that's why John Hurt plays Marlow as a vampire. And the idea that Marlow basically wrote all those plays.

[56:05] Gordon Cox: That's right. How could I totally forget that? When my character meets Marlow in Tangier for the first time, I think we quote Hamlet at each other.

[56:13] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah. What is this quintessence of dust?

[56:15] Gordon Cox: That's right. For people who don't know what I look like, well, Google it. But somebody called me Only Love Is Left Alive the other day, because I guess my hair looks like yours.

[56:25] Tom Hiddleston: It's your hair. Does it really?

[56:27] Gordon Cox: That's what they said.

[56:28] Tom Hiddleston: It's much more lustrous.

[56:32] Gordon Cox: Adam's hair is kind of stringy.

[56:33] Tom Hiddleston: I guess that's true, but he is, you know, 2000 years old.

[56:36] Gordon Cox: That's right. So I'm going to hand you this dictionary. Please read any definition you like, and we will see.

[56:43] Tom Hiddleston: I'm just going to open it at random. We'll put this myth to the test. I found the word remonstrant.

[56:49] Gordon Cox: That's what I found. It was literally the first word I saw. Of course, it wouldn't be like rooster. It would be remonstrant.

[56:54] Tom Hiddleston: Remonstrant. Adjective. Marked by remonstrance. Expostulatory. Noun. One who remonstrates. Two. Remonstrant. A. This is amazing. One of the Dutch Armenians who, in 1610, made a formal statement about the grounds of their descent from strict Calvinism. B. A member of the Protestant denomination that these dissenters founded.

[57:21] Gordon Cox: Well, that's amazing.

[57:23] Tom Hiddleston: I've learned something new.

[57:24] Gordon Cox: You learn something new every day.

[57:25] Tom Hiddleston: Another one?

[57:28] Gordon Cox: Laryngeal is what we get here.

[57:30] Tom Hiddleston: Again, is that a real word? I feel like you're making things up.

[57:33] Gordon Cox: No, I promise. It's an adjective. Laryngeus. Larynx. Of. Relating to. Affecting or situated near the larynx. To. Produced in or with the larynx. Glottal. A part of the larynx. A laryngeal sound. Any of a set of sounds of uncertain character reconstructed from indirect evidence of Proto-Indo-European.

[57:57] Tom Hiddleston: I know I'm not your agent yet, but I do think you should do, when they have books on tape, you should read the dictionary.

[58:01] Gordon Cox: It would take a long time.

[58:04] Tom Hiddleston: Nah, you can read this dictionary.

[58:09] Gordon Cox: I would learn so much.

[58:12] Tom Hiddleston: Do you know how hard it was to find an actual physical dictionary?

[58:15] Gordon Cox: So good, though, these words.

[58:17] Tom Hiddleston: Do you want another long word or do you want a short word?

[58:19] Gordon Cox: I'm trying to find a short word.

[58:23] Tom Hiddleston: I'm afraid I keep seeing all the long ones. Look up avenge.

[58:26] Gordon Cox: Here we go.

[58:27] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, I know.

[58:30] Gordon Cox: Way to bring it back.

[58:32] Tom Hiddleston: Full circle. Avenge.

[58:39] Gordon Cox: Verb.

[58:43] Tom Hiddleston: From the Latin, vengere. Vindicare.

[58:46] Gordon Cox: No, yes. From the Latin, vindicare.

[58:51] Tom Hiddleston: To vindicate.

[58:53] Gordon Cox: To exact revenge or satisfaction for.

[58:57] Tom Hiddleston: To take vengeance on behalf of.

[59:00] Gordon Cox: Avenger.

[59:01] Tom Hiddleston: Noun. Avengeingly.

[59:03] Gordon Cox: Adverb.

[59:06] Tom Hiddleston: Avenge.

[59:06] Gordon Cox: Synonyms. Avenge. Redress. Repay. Requite. Vindicate.

[59:10] Tom Hiddleston: Wouldn't be the same if it was called the redressers.

[59:13] Gordon Cox: Infinity War.

[59:14] Tom Hiddleston: The repayers.

[59:15] Gordon Cox: The requiters.

[59:16] Tom Hiddleston: Requiters. Infinity War. Coming to a theater near you, April 27.

[59:22] Gordon Cox: The vindicators.

[59:23] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, there you go. Did you see the Simpsons reference recently? They parodied you guys, but it was The Assemblers.

[59:29] Gordon Cox: The Assemblers.

[59:31] Tom Hiddleston: Assemble, not in the dictionary, guys.

[59:33] Gordon Cox: So if you'd like to use the word redress, I'd appreciate it. This is a great game.

[59:38] Tom Hiddleston: And you bring it full circle to revenge.

[59:42] Gordon Cox: I do, which I can't. I don't know if you ever imagined 10 years ago, like you probably thought you were done with this character after Avengers.

[59:49] Tom Hiddleston: But honestly, it has been one of the great unexpected surprises of my life playing this part.

[59:57] Gordon Cox: And I've loved it.

[1:00:01] Tom Hiddleston: And I didn't expect to play it for this long. And I sort of, I'm so, I feel really honored to be in it. I really do. Because after Thor, The Dark World, you know, the Marvel Universe expanded in new directions with The Winter Soldier and Guardians and Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Spider-Man.

[1:00:22] Gordon Cox: And I wasn't sure if I was ever going to come back.

[1:00:25] Tom Hiddleston: And so I watched, I really watched the movies as a fan. And the, particularly those recent films, I thought The Winter Soldier was amazing. I think that that is probably the best made.

[1:00:37] Gordon Cox: Yeah, it's just terrific.

[1:00:39] Tom Hiddleston: And then Doctor Strange and Black Panther. There's some very profound things in those films. You know, that scene between Benedict and Tilda where they're sort of letting go and she's teaching him that it's not about him in a way.

[1:00:56] Gordon Cox: And then some of the stuff in Black Panther is very progressive and new within the universe itself.

[1:01:04] Tom Hiddleston: And I sit, as I have done in recent weeks, alongside these extraordinary, charismatic actors, some of the greatest actors in the world and think, how the hell did I get here? It's amazing.

[1:01:18] Gordon Cox: Not only that, I mean, don't you think you got the best character? I mean, I know you originally auditioned for Thor. Aren't you so happy how things turned out?

[1:01:24] Tom Hiddleston: Yes, I am. It's funny, though, because I remember that there was, you know, now I've told this story a few times, but that evening that Kenneth Branagh announced he was directing Thor, we were playing Ivanov in London and I ran up to his dressing room in the interval with a water cooler pretending it was the hammer.

[1:01:42] Gordon Cox: A sincerely bad joke.

[1:01:44] Tom Hiddleston: But he did say to me in the space of that interval, he said, well, you never know, but Loki's the part. And so even in his mind, he said, he said, if I was an actor, the part I want to play is Loki.

[1:01:56] Gordon Cox: Wow.

[1:01:58] Tom Hiddleston: So already I knew that there was a sort of seed of intrigue and interest in him.

[1:02:06] Gordon Cox: Fascinating.

[1:02:07] Tom Hiddleston: I mean, he is a fascinating contradiction, Loki, to inhabit the archetype of the trickster. It's almost like this is my other great passion was my degree. I did classics and I just was a child. I loved the mythology. I loved the Greco-Roman mythology, particularly the stories, the fantastical stories, Odysseus and the Cyclops and gods and monsters and the Trojan War and the idea that the gods would have favorites that they would come down and touch and help.

[1:02:39] Gordon Cox: And Dionysus is a fascinating creature who's the sort of the Greek trickster.

[1:02:45] Tom Hiddleston: He's a disruptor, someone whose job it is to almost his place in the pantheon is to subvert the convention. And that's who Loki is, is that he's designed to represent the unpredictable, the unfamiliar and the chaotic. And so to have to inhabit that has been a gift. I mean, it has just been the most extraordinary gift. I feel very lucky.

[1:03:20] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[1:03:20] Tom Hiddleston: And again, I'll take it down to a much baser level and say, as the youngest child in a family, he's obviously my favorite.

[1:03:29] Gordon Cox: And your brother is a pain in the ass sometimes.

[1:03:33] Tom Hiddleston: It's siblings, isn't it? I think siblings all over the world can understand what goes on between the two.

[1:03:37] Gordon Cox: Absolutely.

[1:03:38] Tom Hiddleston: But there's so much love in there, too.

[1:03:41] Gordon Cox: That's the thing. You can't do the sibling rivalry without the sibling love, especially now after Ragnarok.

[1:03:53] Tom Hiddleston: It was amazing shooting that scene, actually, in Ragnarok with Anthony Hopkins, because it's finally closed that chapter. And I felt quite emotional because, and I spoke about this with Anthony Hopkins, he had learned King Lear and was about to play it. It's coming out soon in a film production directed by Richard Eyre.

[1:04:16] Gordon Cox: And I had learned Hamlet and I had watched him. He's, by the way, Seek It Out, an extraordinary Claudius. Have you seen it?

[1:04:23] Tom Hiddleston: No, the old one.

[1:04:25] Gordon Cox: Yeah, Nicole Williamson as Hamlet and Anthony Hopkins as Claudius. Terrifying, really, truly terrifying.

[1:04:32] Tom Hiddleston: And I had watched him play Claudius and we were talking about it on set. And then suddenly we were playing the scene where Thor and Loki say goodbye to Odin for the last time. And it felt like we were saying goodbye to, to some extent, to the journey we started. That the center of the Thor universe for the three of us had started as a family relationship between the father and his two sons. And that was closing, that came to a close and it felt very poignant, actually.

[1:05:11] Gordon Cox: Um, so, yeah.

[1:05:11] Tom Hiddleston: Well, I do want to encourage people to see this movie because I'm very concerned they won't make another if you don't go.

[1:05:17] Gordon Cox: Um, so it's Infinity War.

[1:05:19] Tom Hiddleston: It should be in theaters now.

[1:05:20] Gordon Cox: It should be in theaters, yeah. Thank you so much for being my inaugural guest.

[1:05:23] Tom Hiddleston: But we were here to talk about our passions.

[1:05:25] Gordon Cox: Yes.

[1:05:25] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, of which there are clearly many and various. Great, you can come back next week.

[1:05:30] Gordon Cox: Okay.

[1:05:31] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, it's actually our podcast. I don't know if they told you that.

[1:05:33] Gordon Cox: Okay, so next week we'll talk about...

[1:05:37] Tom Hiddleston: Not puns, we've ruled that out.

[1:05:40] Gordon Cox: We'll talk about, um, Daniel Day-Lewis.

[1:05:45] Tom Hiddleston: About what?

[1:05:46] Gordon Cox: Daniel Day-Lewis.

[1:05:47] Tom Hiddleston: Oh, Daniel Day-Lewis!

[1:05:48] Gordon Cox: I thought you were talking about like a dinosaur.

[1:05:50] Tom Hiddleston: It came together so fast.

[1:05:51] Gordon Cox: Oh, sorry, sorry. The Daniel Day-Lewis.

[1:05:52] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah.

[1:05:53] Gordon Cox: How much time do you have?

[1:05:57] Tom Hiddleston: I could do that easily.

[1:05:58] Gordon Cox: How much time do you have?

[1:05:59] Tom Hiddleston: It's your podcast.

[1:06:00] Gordon Cox: Yeah, you're probably needed somewhere, though.

[1:06:02] Tom Hiddleston: I think you have a premiere tomorrow.

[1:06:03] Gordon Cox: Okay.

[1:06:04] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.

[1:06:07] Gordon Cox: No, I so appreciate it.

[1:06:08] Tom Hiddleston: Yeah, thank you.

[1:06:09] Gordon Cox: Have a great day.

[1:06:10] Tom Hiddleston: Thanks, Janelle.

[1:06:11] Gordon Cox: Thanks.