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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to StageCraft, Variety's theater podcast. Your backstage pass to revealing conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders. On Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond. I'm Gordon Cox.

[0:17] Gordon Cox: This week, the musical Hamilton celebrates 10 years since its Broadway opening on August 6, 2015. Since then, Lin-Manuel Miranda's revolutionary retelling of the life of American founding father Alexander Hamilton has become one of the most popular musicals ever, playing on Broadway, in the West End, around the world, and on Disney+. As part of the show's 10-year birthday festivities, I moderated a panel with four of the actors who have starred in Hamilton over the years and played a role in the musical's legacy. This conversation was recorded live as part of the Backstage at Hudson Yards series on an outdoor stage within view of the Hudson River on the west side of Manhattan. So, please forgive any sirens, helicopters, or any other New York City sounds that you hear in the background.

You'll hear from Thayne Jasperson, the original Broadway cast member of Hamilton, who's still in the show 10 years later. Miguel Cervantes, the actor who's played the role of Alexander Hamilton more than any other. Hannah Cruz, who starred as Eliza on tour. And Edred Utomi, who's played the title role of Hamilton both on tour and on Broadway. Oh, and by the way, he's also married to Cruz, whom he met when they were both in Hamilton together. And now, here's Thayne, Miguel, Hannah, and Edred.

[2:02] Thayne Jasperson: So, I play the original Samuel Seabury. If you watch it on Disney Plus, you'll see me singing, "He not the rabble who scream revolution." And then also in the show, I get to play King George and I get to play John Lawrence. So, and I'm still with the show all this time later.

[2:16] Miguel Cervantes: Hi, everybody. I'm Miguel Cervantes. I started in August of the first of July. What year was that? August of 2016. I started on the Broadway company. I actually got to perform with these guys for the first while. Then I went to Chicago and opened the Chicago company for four years. Then after COVID, I went back to New York and I was Hamilton on Broadway for... What's his name? What's his, what's his name? You were like, I was... I was Alexander Hamilton. And listen, funny story, funny story. If you're ever at a bar or a party and someone says to you, "Hey, friend, do you know what human being has played Hamilton more than any other human?" Now you know. I got to perform for over eight years, 2013 times. That's a lot of my shot.

[3:19] Hannah Cruz: Wow. I'm Hannah Cruz. I played Eliza on the national tour. Thank you very much. From 2018 to 2019. So I'm probably the one on the stage who has done the show the least, but I'm married to this guy and he's done it over a thousand times?

[3:41] Edred Utomi: Second most after Miguel.

[3:42] Hannah Cruz: Second most after Miguel. So I've had Hamilton in my life for a very long time.

[3:46] Edred Utomi: Hi, everybody. My name is Edred Utomi. I was Hamilton. I started as a standby on the Angelica tour, which was the first national tour. I covered Hamilton, Washington, Burr, and Laf Jefferson. In 2019, I took over full-time Hamilton and I did that up until 2023. So I think about four years full-time Ham. I was trying to catch this guy, but he, you know, he did too many. Yeah. And then I just did three weeks on Broadway, made my Broadway debut as Hamilton on Broadway. So I got to do that.

[4:22] Thayne Jasperson: And did you two meet on Hamilton?

[4:23] Edred Utomi: We met doing Hamilton.

[4:24] Thayne Jasperson: Please tell us that story.

[4:25] Edred Utomi: I was Ham, she was Eliza.

[4:26] Hannah Cruz: Kitty was leaving.

[4:29] Edred Utomi: What story?

[4:30] Thayne Jasperson: What was the story?

[4:31] Edred Utomi: The story of engagement?

[4:32] Hannah Cruz: Yeah.

[4:33] Edred Utomi: The story of engagement. Um, quick one. Sorry. We have other questions, but it was the closing in Puerto Rico of Angelica tour in 2023. We had been dating for like about two years, right? A little over, a little under. It was my last show. Obviously it was very emotional. After the show, after the building cleared, we went up on stage. She didn't know what was happening then, but I proposed on the stage that we like met and yeah, it felt very full circle. We're married now. It's been almost a year. It's been good. Yeah, that's all.

[5:04] Gordon Cox: So on the Tony Awards this year, the show's original Broadway cast, including Thayne, performed. The reaction from the audience and from the fans on TV, it just sort of reminded folks how beloved Hamilton remains to this day and how sort of in everybody's blood a lot of this music is. How do you experience that as folks performing? I imagine you are aware that half the people in the audience probably know every single word and maybe better than you do. Like, what's that like for you all to experience?

[5:36] Thayne Jasperson: No, you're totally right. It's, you know, the times that I do kind of miss, I mean, I love it when they all know the words.

[5:40] Miguel Cervantes: I was going to say, because it started out when nobody, for you, nobody knew those words when you started.

[5:44] Thayne Jasperson: Yeah, that's, yeah. Like when we were off Broadway, I missed the time when we were the public and nobody knew the words. So people sat in the audience and literally the whole audience was like this, just staring and like soaking up every word and trying to grasp it all because we're rapping, we're talking so fast, you know, saying so many things. Michelle Obama shows up and she's like trying to figure it out. It was incredible. I mean, which is funny because when Michelle Obama came, y'all, since I said her name, she came. They didn't tell us. We walk out on stage, right? I'm like the fifth guy that walks on stage. So I'm like, word got around, they said, and I look over and standing there just like this is a man with like this and he has a twirly cord and he has the tie and he's staring at me and I was like, huh, huh.

And then I go this way and then there's another guy over here and then there's another guy and another guy and another guy and they were all over the place. And I was like, are we about to get bombed? We're about to get bombed. So then we're freaked out and I don't know what's happening in the public building. And then they tell us, oh, so Michelle Obama's here. We're like, you don't want to tell us? So then of course, during all of Hamilton, you know, when we're doing my shot, we're looking for her. So we're like, and I am not throwing away my shot. I am not throwing away my, like trying to find her. It was amazing. So at the public, sorry, I sidetracked, but I loved it when people didn't know the words and they just kind of would sit there in awe.

But I also kind of not going to lie. I think I'm one of the people who like the few who loves looking out and seeing people just sing the whole thing. I mean, I know as an audience member, my friends Jerry and Judy right there, they're shaking their heads and they're like never in the theater. People sing, but I love it. I think it's fun when you're out there and you're just like rapping and having fun. I mean, getting into it. But yeah, the Tonys were incredible. I mean, magical. How, how would you ever think that 10 years later, the entire cast would come back? You guys, I was like a golden Labrador. I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Hi. Hi. Like shaking my tail. So excited to see everybody. It was amazing.

[7:30] Gordon Cox: You all watched that, I imagine folks. Yeah. You imagine that. Miguel, what was it like for you to watch that? And then I remember I got the job in 2016 and the Tony awards were the next week I got cast in the show the week before the Tonys. And so I'm standing at the Tony party watching. They did Yorktown at the Tonys in 2016. And I stood there watching it and like, I started crying and I was like, I can't believe that, that I'm, I'm, I'm about to go do, nobody knew that wasn't allowed to tell anyone. I was like, you know, and I saw, I was crying and I kind of felt like that on, on when I watch it this time, I remember that feeling of sort of experiencing it. And this is the first time I'd ever seen it.

I didn't, I didn't see it before. And I saw it, what they were doing up there. And I just thought this is incredible. It's unbelievable what they're doing. And then I watched it again and it, you sort of reminded of how that feeling that the first time you see it, the first time you hear it or whatever your first experience, and it's jealous, you know, I'm jealous of people who get to experience it for the first time again, you know?

[8:44] Gordon Cox: How do you think about like Hannah, for instance, how did you think about balancing a performance to the folks who know every word with pitching it toward the people who are maybe hearing the story for the first time?

[8:57] Hannah Cruz: When I auditioned for the show back in 2018, I actually didn't know it like at all. I had made a point. I don't like to listen to cast albums until I see the show and I hadn't had the opportunity and so I had stayed away from it. And so I knew about all the hype. I had been on tour at the time with a different show and everyone in the show was obsessed with Hamilton, but I was like, I'm gonna wait. And then I got the audition. I was like, I should probably listen to this. So I only listened to like burn and helpless and say no to this because it's a bop and it's still my favorite number in the show. But I kind of went into it not understanding everything that was on top of it. And it honestly wasn't until my debut in Boston.

When you when I first heard the like done, done, done, done. When I heard the audience reaction to that, I was like, Oh my god, I've never felt so much pressure in an existing work before ever, ever, because either I'm in something new that nobody knows about yet, or it's a show that like is not as beloved as the most beloved musical of all time, arguably. And so it was really honestly scary and tough to take on a show like that because everyone has an expectation of what the cast album sounds like and then what these new people are going to sound like. And what I love about Hamilton is they cast a wide net for people and every company you see is going to be different. It's going to be a different story almost than what you've seen before, because everyone has such a different touch to these characters.

And I love that they welcome that individuality. But I did because I wasn't tuned into all the hype, I did kind of get to chart a course for Eliza. I felt on my own. And so it was super fulfilling. It was to this day, one of the most fulfilling roles I've ever played.

[10:47] Gordon Cox: And Edward, for you, Hamilton is a role that's concerned with legacy, right? And then you're stepping into this role that has its own kind of meta legacy of all the folks who've played it before, starting with Lynn. How did you navigate that? And how did you find your way toward your own Hamilton?

[11:04] Edred Utomi: That's a great question. I think that, you know, I was a massive fan of Hamilton, obviously, like most people are before I joined it. So when I joined it, it was like, surreal. And I think I studied Lynn so much, as much as I could from the small videos that are not illegal online, you know? And, and I would watch—

[11:24] Miguel Cervantes: Disney Plus hadn't happened yet, right?

[11:26] Edred Utomi: Disney Plus, yeah. So and then I also, you know, credit to Michael Uoye, who I had seen and Austin Scott, who was our Hamilton on tour for a while. So like, I was able to kind of watch and see what they were doing and like, pick my favorite things, you know, as a standby. And when I took over full time was really when I got to be like, okay, like, I've been doing it for like, nine months, I have a good sense of the show. And then I was able to, you know, my parents are Nigerian immigrants. And so I was, you know, as Lynn draws on like, the Puerto Rican immigrant experience, I think I draw more on the Nigerian immigrant and kind of filtered that through like, the experiences of my parents and my siblings and people in my life who have gone through certain things maybe that my, that Hamilton has gone through.

So it was really cool to explore that in the first couple years and then pandemic hit. And I think that a lot of us changed internally as we were, you know, wherever we were holed in for 18 months or whatever. So I think that I kind of like changed a lot after the pandemic as well. And I was able to go home and actually spend time with my parents as an adult for the first time in, you know, years. So that kind of, I think, leveled up everything as well. And it was crazy. It's crazy to what look out like, kind of what Hannah said, there's a lot of pressure. And I think that when I first started, I was like, this is fun, whatever, like, let's get lit. Like, you know, like, I'm gonna say a lot of we're wrapping out here.

And then like, the pressure sat in, after months of doing it and like, realizing that people love it so much. And so there's like a duty to it. And then after the pressure, like subsided, and I was like, yeah, like, I'm gonna share this thing that I've created. I hope you guys really like it. I'm sure you're going to I'm hope you I hope you do. But and then yeah, it became less pressure and more like fun. Like when I did my Broadway for three weeks, I was like, this is just gonna be great. Like I know it's pressure, but like, I'm just gonna have a lot of fun and kind of share the version of the Hamilton that I've created. You know? Yeah.

[13:23] Gordon Cox: Hamilton is a show that is about the political scene in the United States, which was very different in 2015. And it's been through a number of changes ever since. Yeah. And, and Hamilton, the meaning of Hamilton changes with the times. What's your take on why Hamilton? What does Hamilton mean right now for you all as you're performing it or watching it?

[13:45] Thayne Jasperson: You know, I was on stage, as I'm sure you were, on Wednesday, November 6, 2016. Right. And there was a an election that happened the day before. And if you can remember, and we said the same words, right, the set, the words were the same, the movements were the same, everything was the same, but it felt different. Like it felt I am my own person, I have my own political views, but the words are the same. Lynn wrote the same words in the same songs, and it felt different to me and in the energy between us.

[14:22] Miguel Cervantes: The energy between us and the audience was different, and I think that's part of the beauty of what the story is, right? It's about these real people, human beings, in a moment of unbelievable stress and creativity. Not all of them were great humans; they were not perfect people. So to see the political world, the creation of the Constitution and the country, and the ideas through the lens of imperfect humans trying to figure out what was right and wrong, you can sort of place that into our own political life and the people that are in charge now. Maybe some of them are right and some of them are wrong, and they are flawed humans creating in real time. We're watching the consequences and benefits all happening right in front of us as they're just navigating the waters of life, and all of us are sort of affected by it.

That's the biggest thing about playing that guy. You can say, "Well, this happened, and this happened, and this happened," or you can say, "This was a man, a human man, trying to figure it out as he went along," understanding that that is happening right now, right in front of us. What is cool is that the show does bring such an awareness to history, to politics, to all kinds of things that for the young people, for all people of all ages, you know, the dads who just want to watch sports are suddenly like, "Yeah, what's that show? Not take away your shot, something about that," right? It's fun to see the way that it's involved everybody. I remember in the beginning, it was super cool because anytime any politician came to the show, there was always a response from people wherever they landed.

I remember one time, maybe I shouldn't be telling you this, but I'll tell you. My company manager's here; he might get mad at me, but don't worry about it. So, one time we were in the show, and I remember for the second act, I pop up out of the orchestra pit. If you see, like, the stage is here, and then the orchestra pit is this square, and then the conductor's here, and he's going like this and playing. I pop up out of there, you know, and we're like, "Sit, sit, 17," right as we go into "What did I miss?" So I get to hear everything that's happening in the crowd. I remember one day Hillary Clinton was at the show, and it was fun because, like I said, wherever you fall politically, you know, is wonderful.

People came in, and she came in, and then you heard like this crowd erupt, and then you heard this woman who was like, "We're with you, Hillary," and then you heard this other person go, "Speak for yourself," and then suddenly the next one's like, "You're stupid," and then the other one's like, "Oh God," and then it was all this fighting. It was kind of amazing because I was like, "What's happening up there?" So then I just want to watch what's happening. But you know, it's been a really fun thing to see that people are all invested and excited because we are all a part of this, right? We're here as a part of what landed from these young teenagers, young adults that were trying to figure out a country.

The awareness has been something really beautiful, really like that it's brought such an awareness to everyone. Edward, did you experience that coming in? You were away from the show for a couple of years, and then you were just in it on Broadway for a few weeks. Did it feel different to you? Did the audience respond differently?

[17:44] Edred Utomi: I think so. It's different doing it on tour because every city responds differently, you know, and they respond differently to different parts of the show. I remember when we played Virginia, they really loved Thomas Jefferson because he's like, "Virginia's my home sweet home." They were like, "They were yelling," and I was like, "Why are they yelling in the middle?" I was like, "Oh, he said Virginia." Stuff like that. Or like D.C., we played D.C.; they loved Washington. There are certain elements that play differently in different cities, so that was really cool. But the Broadway audience, as somebody who's seen a lot of shows and sat in a lot of Broadway audiences, I was a little worried because sometimes Broadway audiences can be like, "Impress me."

But the Hamilton audiences feel very community-oriented and feel like family, and they feel like, "Yes, we're here to experience it all together." Shout out to all you fans! It really felt like that, so it was really cool to be able to perform because it didn't feel like there was like, "We have to..." I mean, Hamilton doesn't have to prove it's a good show, so they have the benefit of that. But it was really cool to perform in that because I was like, "Oh, we can put that pressure away and just be in this story together." You know, it was really cool.

[18:57] Hannah Cruz: This is a question for Hannah as well. You were in the tour, and then Hannah, you've gone on to do other things. You were in Suffs on Broadway, and you've, uh, yep, star of Suffs. What did you—how did your experience on that tour kind of set you up for what you did in the future, whether it's coming back to Hamilton like Edward or not? What do you carry with you from that time and that experience?

[19:18] Hannah Cruz: Hamilton, I feel like, was my first big girl job in that the responsibility of doing eight shows a week and upholding your body and upholding the integrity of the show and continuing to grow and get better in something. I think it was a huge turning point for me in that I was like, "I only want to do work at this level," and I want to expect this from myself every time and get better from here. It gave me a ton of tools. I think I messed up a lot on Hamilton. I think I learned a lot about my voice. I ended up getting like a vocal injury and had to learn that I may have even had before Hamilton, but I had never had a job so taxing on me that I even had to look at my vocal cords as much as I have to look at them now.

But I—it's awesome. Anybody know about that? They stick a thing down your throat, and we do it all the time. We do it almost once every three weeks; it's crazy. You just look at your vocal cords; it's quite intimate. But I do think it showed me so much of what I am capable of. After Ham, I think I went on to do almost exclusively new works, and I think that I've brought all of that experience, all that stuff I put in my pack, and I brought with me from then on. I also want to say about the last question: I think that's like a benchmark of what truly great art is, right? That it can be born of the time that it's born in, and yet you can place it in any time in current history, and it can meet you at the moment that we're at.

You think about Cabaret, you think about Hamilton, you think about Suffs. I remember we did Suffs on the night that Kamala announced she was gonna run, and then we did Suffs the night before the election and the night after, and all of those shows were so different. It's just art, especially theater. We're communing in a space where it only happens that one night. That energy, those molecules in the air, that will only happen at one time. Great art will meet the moment politically, personally, or otherwise, wherever we're at, and Hamilton is absolutely one of those shows.

[21:40] Miguel Cervantes: I'll have more from my Hamilton panel right after this break.

[21:49] Gordon Cox: And now here's more of my conversation with four of the actors who are part of the legacy of Hamilton: Thayne Jasperson, Miguel Cervantes, Hannah Cruz, and Edred Utomi. Miguel, you mentioned you are the human who has played Alexander Hamilton the most. What kept you involved and sustained you throughout? I'm going to ask you the same question in just a second, Thayne, but first, Miguel, what kept you sticking with it, and then what made you decide that it was time to step away?

[22:13] Miguel Cervantes: Well, first, the easy answer is they pay me money. They pay you; they pay us money to do that. It is a job. You know, we don't do it for free. We do it because we love it, and we do it because we love it. It's a good job, and that's the really boring, terrible answer. The other answer is what he said. You know, somebody in the audience, someone—at least one person has waited a year, has seen it for the first time, they've paid a lot of money, they have heard about this show, they've been looking forward to this. It's their birthday; it's their anniversary; something special is happening for somebody out there. If I was to go out there and not give it everything that I had that day, I would feel like I was cheating those people, and they would walk out of there without the experience that I got.

You know, I mean, I got that experience when I saw it, and I wanted everybody to feel that way because it was such an unbelievable piece of theater and life, and all of it transcends. Oh, it's a great show? Yeah, it's a great show, but like, have you seen it? It's so much bigger. So I always wanted to make sure that I gave that to people. And listen, we're all human beings, right? We can walk into the theater and think, "Why are you here? What do you want from me? I can't believe I have to do this today." And that happens a lot. You know, we are humans; we have our own lives outside. But you walk out there, and dun dun dun dun dun, and then how does the best—and then the people are screaming, and then they're starting, and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do it.

Ready? How does the bastard orphan son of a Scotsman come on, come on, forgotten?" Anyway, so you know, this starts going, and you remember immediately that you're about to go on a two-hour and 55-minute ride. Back in the old days, it was 2:55, and you can sort of ride that emotional wave. It becomes easy—not physically easy, but it's easy to just set in and fall in. Eventually, your children get older. My son was four when I started; he's 13 now. He was 12 when I finally started having the conversation of like, "Is this the time that..." Not that I couldn't do it; I could still do it. They didn't call me Edgar for some reason; I don't understand. But there was a moment when I thought, "You know, I have missed many bedtimes, I've missed many nighttime stories, and dance recitals, and baseball games."

I thought, "What an unbelievable accomplishment! It will never not be an amazing accomplishment. I will always have that, and maybe it's time for the young guys to get in there." You know what I mean? At some point, I had to say, because I probably, if I could just go and do it forever, I probably would have. But my wife said, "I think it's about time." So it was kind of a family decision, and it was the right decision.

[25:35] Gordon Cox: And what's it like for you to be back now celebrating the 10th anniversary?

[25:40] Miguel Cervantes: I want to do it again, but like once. Maybe twice, you know? I mean, just get in there one time. I think I could probably maybe fit in the costumes just once, and then that's it. You know, I still want—you know what? That's it. You know that? You know that it does? Like, I'm jealous. I'm jealous when he got the job. I was like, "Oh, why didn't they call?" I didn't want to do it, but like, "Oh, I wanted to do it." You know what I mean?

[26:05] Thayne Jasperson: We have your costume in the back if you want to come out.

[26:07] Miguel Cervantes: I'll be right back. But it's still there, and I know that I love it, and I know that I loved it every single of those 2,000 times. I loved it every time. It reminds me—I heard the soundtrack in a store one time, and I was like, "Not the one to wait my shot." I was like, "Oh, wait a minute! I did that!" Everybody's rolling their eyes like, "Who does this guy think he is? Is he Hamilton?" Right? And I was like, "No, I did that! I did that! I did it a lot!" It's like, "Oh, isn't it funny, though, when you go home or something, you go to your family, and then they get in the car, and then the first thing they turn on, they're like..."

[27:05] Thayne Jasperson: A lot of people do that.

[27:07] Miguel Cervantes: We did that.

[27:09] Thayne Jasperson: I loved Cats.

[27:11] Miguel Cervantes: Sorry, Cats fans.

[27:13] Thayne Jasperson: Be careful, be careful.

[27:15] Miguel Cervantes: I'm sweating, I'm sweating, I'm sweating so much.

[27:17] Thayne Jasperson: It's gonna be trending tonight because of this.

[27:19] Gordon Cox: Okay, Thayne, what about for you? You have been with it from minute one. I know, and it sounds like you haven't even really thought about leaving. So what keeps you involved? Have you— I mean, I don't know what Miguel was talking about letting the young people do it because young—

[27:33] Thayne Jasperson: Thank you, thank you! Yes, you knew! I'm so young! I mean, I feel, you know, it's crazy because I still feel like I'm like 20. I'm like out there doing the show. Thank you, thank you! 20 forever! I go into the show, and it's crazy because you do have kids come to the show, and then they're like, "I was four years old when they started!" Like, "Mother of pearl!" Right? So then you're worrying about how old they are and what you're doing. But I just love the show. I mean, I, like Miguel, I never take it for granted. I feel like I always try to remember the blessing and the opportunity that has been given and how freaking amazing it is to get to go do this. And then also, you know, your director might be there watching, and so it is a job, so you gotta make sure you're on your marks and doing your thing.

But also, like Miguel said, I mean, the fans are what make it fun. Like when y'all come to the show and you're screaming, like randomly, I'll be doing Seabury, and I'll do my little speech, and there'll be like a crowd that screams, and I'm like, "Oh, hey!" And then it makes it exciting. I'm like, "Yeah, yes, right!" So that reminds you that people are still excited about the show. I mean, it never gets old. It's always—it's a timeless piece that is definitely, like Hannah said, the most epic musical that has ever hit the planet.

[27:40] Thayne Jasperson: "You're about to do this, are you?"

[27:44] Miguel Cervantes: "You love it! We love it! We love it! I mean, it's very good!" Yeah, you know what I mean? So like Cats—not that Cats is not good. I don't know that you can listen over and over and over to Cats on the road trip.

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[42:25] Edred Utomi: Edred Utomi.

[42:35] Edred Utomi: Edred Utomi.

[42:55] Edred Utomi: Edred Utomi.

[45:08] Edred Utomi: Like I came from the Philippines, I came from here, so like you do get that global aspect of it. But I always thought the most beautiful part of the tour was that we got to do it in their homes. Like they get to have a stressful day at work, nine to five, whatever they do, and they're thinking about that night, you know? They're thinking like, "Oh, this is the night I finally get to see the thing," you know? And so to be able to see how it played all across the nation at very different times, you know, I didn't think it would play as well as it would in like Fort Worth, Texas, for example. Random city, you know? Like not random city, but like random city for me. I've never been, you know? But then like it plays the same in Virginia, it plays the same in Ohio, it plays the same.

So like really seeing the tendrils of the show and how like far it stretched was really cool because I don't think that, like she said, it's like not everybody remembers me from the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer tour that I did, you know? If you do, you're a true fan, but like not a lot of people do, you know? But having Hamilton be the thing, people like, "Oh, like even on Broadway, like we saw you in Cincinnati." I was like, "That was in like 2019, oh my gosh!" Like, "Yeah, oh my god, I was so glad like we got to see you." So stuff like that, like it really does show for me the tour was like, "Yeah, we got to meet people where they were in their homes and like see how they were living and experiencing like what they were, you know, all about." So yeah, I think that was really cool to be able to see how it wasn't their town's wait.

[48:05] Edred Utomi: Lightning round, lightning round! Biggest mess up? I never messed up, so that's okay. So I'll be probably fast. Okay, biggest verbal mess up and biggest physical mess up. The biggest verbal mess up, we know, I don't know if we know ever tripped you up. We know was like, I think when my brain started to like, "Oh, you've been doing this for a while, we could take a break," because like all the hard raps are done. But it's not, it's tricky. So like there was one time, okay, so everyone knows the show, "She courted me, escorted me to bed," and when she had me in a corner, that's when Reynolds exhorted me. But all right, so there's that section, and then there's the, as you could see, I kept a record of every check in my check history.

Check it again, I think you listen, right? Right? The brain forgot that I still had fast rapping to do. So what happened, this was like actually I think my biggest mess up. Some of the other messes were like fun, this was like I was panicked and I was stressed and nobody could help me. Instead of starting with "She courted me," it's going to meet a bit, I started with "As you can see," and I said it, and I was like, "What have I done?" And I couldn't remember how it started, but again, I'm starting the text here, but the music here, so I had so much music to fill. So I turned it into like a monologue, which was a terrible decision. It's all like, "As you can see, I kept a record of every in my checkered history," and then I was like, "Oh, I got it, I'm back on music."

And it was because it was like the doo-doo-doo-doo-doo, right? And it did it, but it was the first one, not the second one. And so then I was like, "Oh no," and then Jefferson starts, he's like, "My god, like really, we're all trying to..." And then Bird didn't help, he just sat there and his shoulders were like, "Yeah, if you're ever at a show and someone does this..." Yeah, it's because they're laughing, it's a wrap. Yeah, that was my... And then my physical was non-stop, 'cause you know, you look like, "I'm not throwing away my shot, just you wait." Not totally, I'm gonna stand up like thing because it makes me feel like I'm doing the show. I'm not throwing away my shot, not throwing away my shot, I'm Alexander Hamilton, and you run up the stairs, right?

Did you fall? I fell three times. Oh, three times, 'cause the stairs are super steep and they're very quick, so fast to get up there. So I like, you've got those legs, cut myself. No, like you're supposed to be like standing there all like powerful Washington standing at you, and I was like, "I'm not totally turned around." I did not make it up. Everyone was cracking up, the ensemble like did their move and they were looking at me and all their mouths were like, like staring at me. And then I got off stage and we just, everyone backstage dying, we're laughing so, and they're like, "Are you okay?" I was like, "I don't know, my legs aren't working right now, it's fine." Like it was, yeah, so that was absolutely my biggest fun times. That was fun.

[50:56] Hannah Cruz: I can't, I never had a verbal mess up, but I definitely had a physical mess up. It was with you, it was in whatever your last song is, the monologue. Yeah, when Eliza runs center stage and reaches her hand out, I ran, fell center stage, fell, but somehow fell on my knee. So I was just like on my knee looking up at him like this, and he said, "It's so fast," he's like, "Oh, I thought me show on the other side, get up." He was so worried that I was hurt, and all I could hear from backstage was our Peggy, Mariah, guffawing. And so I had to like get my dress up and just be like, "I'll see you in heaven." But that was the worst I think it ever got.

[51:52] Miguel Cervantes: Okay, so in Chicago, the first, in the first like three or four months we were there, Al Roker came to see the show, right? Al Roker comes to the show, and that means nothing other than he was in the audience, and I met him before, and so I knew he was in the audience. And so I get up for a cabinet battle number one, and I'm like, I was like sitting there, "Useless is to what, you know the words, there's whatever, two shits, turn around, bend over, I'll show you where my shoe fits." And I did this, right? And I was like, "Yeah." So I'm going through the rest of the thing, the whole thing, and he's like, "Get out of here." And then George Washington, "So stand there for me, George Washington, sir."

And I'm standing there, and he's like, "Calm down, Hamilton," whatever he says, and I'm like, "Yeah." And there's a woman right here, right here, and she's going, "Check for boogie," right? Of course. And then I went, "No, my pants are ripped all the way down, straight down." And the zipper's on the side, and I was wearing white underwear. And so, and that's funny enough, except that now what happens? Take a break or say no to this? I don't leave stage, don't leave stage. So I know it's open minutes, open, and I was like, "So during 'Say No to This,' I was like, 'No, show me how to say no to this, show me how to say...'" Like boy band. I'll never forget, it was the worst. And I said, "Did you see what happened?"

He's like, "Yeah, yeah, we saw." Oh man, I finally during "Rumor" happens, I was like, "So that was the most force, the physical thing, it was terrible, just sweating." So first sweaty. My biggest vocal man, I had a few, you know, pretty doozies, but oh reopening after COVID, everyone was so excited, it was so beautiful, the audience, the energy was out of control, it was so great. And I was like during the Washington speech, and I walked up and I said, "Though in reviewing the incidents of my administration," I am, the stage is moving on the turntable, I'm saying nothing, just nothing, nothing. And Lynn is there, he's like, "It was the worst." And then finally the conductor was like, "I shall also can see whatever the next thing is."

I could not believe I never missed that mess, that up, I think that ever, ever, ever until that day reopening COVID. And Lynn said to me after, he said, "Man, I knew that if I ever messed up a word, it would be those words because it was the only ones he didn't write, the only words in the show that he didn't write was that Washington speech." I was like, "Thanks buddy, that makes me feel so much better."

[54:48] Edred Utomi: Anyway, wait, did you ever mess up the helpless rap? No, no, I didn't know that one. I got, oh, you got that. My first ever was "Say No to This." I was like, "Lord, show me how to say no to this." I and Peggy went, I lost it. And that was early in the show, so by then you listen, when you mess up early in the run, it's terrifying. After a couple years, you're like, and you get back in wherever you can, but it was terrifying. Anyway, Thayne, did you mess up ever?

[55:28] Thayne Jasperson: Love it! It's so fun to hear all these. There's, I mean, things go wrong all the time. I remember I was on for Philip one time, and it was our second Hamilton, so Javi Munoz, if you know, I'm sorry, Javi. And I walk up and I'm like about to die, right? I was Philip, I'm like, "Pops, if you had only heard that he said about you." I doubt, right? So I'm at this part, and he just looks at me, and he forgot the words. He goes, "I was like, so I should just take your guns?" He goes, "Take my guns."

[56:06] Edred Utomi: Another time our turntable was going wrong, and "Satisfied" at the wrong moment, and everybody's trying to figure out where to go, and Angelica's not supposed to be, she's trying to be standing still, but she's like, "I would never be satisfied," right as it's been. He was amazing. It's the best mess-ups are our favorite, and you're about to go do the show.

[56:21] Thayne Jasperson: Yeah, we gotta let these folks go because things got a show to get to. Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks everyone, so fun to be here. Thank you all for coming. Thanks everybody. That was Thayne Jasperson, Miguel Cervantes, Hannah Cruz, and Edred Utomi, four of the actors who have been a part of the musical sensation Hamilton.

[56:50] Gordon Cox: If you enjoyed this conversation here on Stagecraft, help us out. We'd really appreciate it if you would take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcasting app. It really does help, or tell a friend about Stagecraft. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, a great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Instagram and X at Gordon B. Cox. You can also check out my newsletter about international theater, it's called Jquies, and it's at gordoncox.substack.com. Thanks for listening and see you at the theater.