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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with stars, creators, and industry leaders on Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond.

[0:17] Gordon Cox: I'm Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Cornelius Smith Jr..

[0:23] Gordon Cox: He's an actor who's done a lot of TV work over the last several years, including four seasons on Scandal and four years on All My Children. His latest TV project, the Hurricane Katrina hospital drama, Five Days of Memorial, just premiered on Apple TV Plus.

[0:38] Gordon Cox: But he spent this summer starring on stage in American Prophet, a new musical about Frederick Douglass. Created by Grammy-winning country music songwriter Marcus Humman and co-book writer and director Charles Randolph Wright, American Prophet tells the story of Douglass and his first wife, Anna, in the early days of their fight for abolition.

[0:58] Gordon Cox: Mixing text from Douglass's own writing and speeches with music by Human, American Prophet is in the midst of its world premiere run at Arena Stage in Washington, D.C., with Smith in the title role. Now the actor is in the virtual studio with me to talk about re-examining Frederick Douglass in the years before he became the Elder Statesman that we so often imagine him as, and exploring Douglass's relationship with the often overlooked woman behind the man.

[1:28] Cornelius Smith Jr: And I say, what up, Doe.

[1:30] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yes, happy to be here.

[1:32] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Uh, the show is up and running right now. Uh, how's it going?

[1:37] Cornelius Smith Jr: You know, it's going really well. Really well. Uh, we open July 15th, and uh, we'll be running till August 28th, American Prophet, in his own words. Uh, Frederick Douglass in his own words is the uh full title. And I'm having a blast. Uh, I really am. I mean, what a time to be doing uh a play like this, a piece like this. Uh, 80% of the words that I speak are Frederick Douglass's actual words, and when you hear them, it's uh alarming how relevant his words still ring true today. Um, and so fantastic production, amazing cast, uh, and um amazing creative team, and uh certainly certainly having a blast.

[2:23] Gordon Cox: And how did you first get involved in the project? Uh, I I am I right about this. You first got attached. There was a developmental performance at the Apollo, like back in 2019. Was that your first involvement in it? Or were you attached before that?

[2:35] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yes, yes. Well, um I actually auditioned for Charles Randolph Wright, who is the director and playwright along with Marcus Human. Um, I first met Charles back in maybe 2013-ish, somewhere around there. I auditioned for uh Motown. Um, the Broadway uh musical Motown. But I think I was auditioning for the tour, and so that's when I initially met Charles, and um I ended up doing another round of callbacks in New York after meeting him. I think my first initial audition was actually in Detroit, Michigan, my hometown.

[3:18] Cornelius Smith Jr: Um, and so after that round of callbacks in New York, um, actually I just lost my mother. So my mother passed away. Uh, she's no longer with us. She passed away like on a Friday, and I flew to New York that weekend to do these round of callbacks uh for Charles. And I I showed up and did the audition and said, you know, at the end, I said, Hey, listen, my mom just passed away, but I believe she would want me to be here to see this through and to follow through. And so here I am. Oh, also, by the way, I just won this competition called uh ABC Make Me a Star, where the winner got a one-year talent holding agreement with ABC and $25,000. So I had just won that, and I just lost my mom and did this audition. Charles wanted me for the role. I couldn't do it, but he remembered me. And so that was that was um 2014.

[4:14] Cornelius Smith Jr: And then maybe two years later, Charles approached me with this piece, uh, American Prophet. He said, Um I'm working on something special about Frederick Douglass. Here's the music. Uh, I think you're my Frederick. Let me know if you're interested. And so I listened to the music, uh, read the script, and was just immediately taken away with the music. I mean, it was so heartfelt. Uh, I really connected with the lyrics and with the vibes. And when I learned that, you know, the lyrics and the music and and the words and the play were all Frederick Douglass's actual words. I just, you know, I fell in love and said, Hey, I'm I'm with this, Charles. Like, thank you for the opportunity. I would love to be a part of it.

And then we set out then to do the the workshop and the reading at Apollo stage, and that went really well and it got a lot of great interest. And um, yeah, and so we we got ramped up there to get things started, and the COVID, the COVID of it all, ended up shutting us down.

[5:18] Cornelius Smith Jr: And so we got put on pause for a couple years, like the rest of the world. Uh, but last year we we got it wrapped up again and and did a reading, um, and now here we are at Arena Stage. Just happy to be here on its feet, full production, loving it, and it's been going really, really well ever since.

[5:40] Gordon Cox: Yeah, you've done a lot of uh screen work in the intervening years since you know we last saw you here on stage uh in New York. Anyway, was theater something you were consciously looking to get back to?

[5:54] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yeah, I mean my roots are my roots are on from the stage. Uh I went to SMU Southern Methodist University and majored in theater there. Before that, I was at Cass Technical High School in Detroit, Michigan, and was heavily involved in the theater program and activities there. And yeah, I mean NYU grad acting again, the stage. So I'm I'm from the stage and always want to kind of keep a close relationship and tie to the stage. Um, but at the same time I I do enjoy doing film and television. So that is something that I too always wanted to do. And it's just been really great to be able to do both and you know kind of have a full circle moment to to be doing this production at Arena Stage. I've always wanted to do a musical. This is my first professional musical that I've that I'm doing and it's it's great.

[6:48] Cornelius Smith Jr: Also to another full circle moment, Zelda Fitchhandler, who is the um who founded Arena Stage, um was one of the class was one of the last classes that she actually handpicked uh for NYU Grad Acting because she later became a chair at NYU Grad Acting. And so I'll never forget meeting Zelda and and just having great conversations and working with her. And so it's a it's a full circle moment to be back at a state at a theater that she helped build and found and now be on stage doing this this important, important work.

[7:29] Gordon Cox: Yeah. For folks who haven't been able to see American Prophet yet, tell us a little bit about its focus and what parts of Frederick Douglass's life it concentrates on.

[7:39] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yeah, so we are focused on Frederick Douglass in this uh as a young man in his earlier years. Uh often, myself included, when I think of Frederick Douglass, the image that comes to mind and the persona that comes to mind is the older statesman with the white hair, just the older Douglass in his 50s, 60s, just just straight old man vibe. Uh Frederick Douglass. And the unique thing about this is that we're focused on his earlier life, say I would around the 30s, mid mid-early 30s to 40s of his life. And we're also drawing focus on his first wife, Anna Douglas, who he was married to for 44 years. And so we really tell the love story between those two and the journey between those two because without Anna, there would be no Frederick.

She was a huge kind of part of his life, uh, supported him in many ways, um, made made everything possible for Frederick to do what he did and to become the prolific figure that we know him today. And yet Anna Douglas gets no, you know, she's she's not spoken about in the history books. She gets kind of no recognition.

[8:49] Cornelius Smith Jr: And so what's been really fascinating and fun is that we've actually been in contact with the actual Douglass family and got their blessing and just learn a lot of different uh fun facts and unique things that aren't in the history books that we can kind of incorporate into this production in telling the story of both Frederick and Anna. And also should mention Anna's being played by uh Crystal Lloyd uh in the production, wonderful, wonderful actress. And so it's just been great to bring not only Frederick's story and voice to life, but uh one could argue more importantly to bring Anna Anna Douglass's uh story and um voice to life as well.

[9:32] Gordon Cox: Can you give us an example of one of those fun facts that uh that you comes up in the show and not in the history books?

[9:40] Cornelius Smith Jr: Um I think I would say I mean, well, a fun fact for me that I don't know, and I don't know if this came from I mean, I think this is a known fact for people who really know Frederick Douglass, but I didn't know his name wasn't Frederick Douglass, it was actually Frederick Bailey. He had to change his name. He decided to change his name. Um I didn't know his full name was Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey. Uh and so after he kind of escaped slavery, obviously, he changed his name to Frederick Douglass. You know, so I thought his name was always Frederick Douglass, but it wasn't. His his his um original slave name, if you will, was uh Frederick Bailey. And so that was kind of really interesting fact for me to kind of discover throughout this, throughout this process.

[10:29] Cornelius Smith Jr: And also, too, I mean, that just really the existence of Anna. Sadly, I I didn't know anything about Anna Douglas. And so just learning about her and her contributions. I mean, she she ran the un she she ran, helped run the Underground Railroad. Like she helped rescue and free slaves on her own in her own right. Because at the time Frederick Douglass was traveling the world and you know traveling the world back then took a little time. It just wasn't just a hop skip and a jump to go to Europe or to go across the country like you were gone. And so that left Anna to really hold down the finances to to just really manage everything on her own, which oftentimes women do and and they just don't get the just credit that they deserve for for just being such a strong kind of presence and supporting uh themselves and and the men in their lives. So it's it's been great. So that's I think that's a fun fact that I I think I've learned.

[11:30] Gordon Cox: As you mentioned this is a musical so tell us about the music. What's the sound of the show?

[11:36] Cornelius Smith Jr: Oh man yeah this this the the music is is is riveting it kind of has its own tempo its own vibe. Marcus Human Grammy nominated uh Grammy winner excuse me show some respect on his name he he just did a fabulous job of just giving each song a very kind of visceral pulse visceral melody um rhyme I mean the words it's just it's really unlike anything I've ever heard it's it's kind of it's it has a country a gospel um a bluesy sometimes jazzy vibe uh and so very very kind of unique um in its feel and its structure because you know the words that we're singing um he he was able to implement Frederick's words into song and just when you read and when you look at some of Frederick's speeches and and and articles and just really everything Frederick Douglass did his his words his the way he spoke is very poetic and really lends itself to to this kind of melodic poetry that that you can really lean into that makes it great uh obviously the transition into music so very very powerful uh songs um that that when I first heard it I found myself just humming they're very kind of catchy and and stick with you their songs I think that you remember for really for a lifetime.

[11:46] Cornelius Smith Jr: What does expressing your character through song allow you to do that you're not able to do uh uh you know as you're speaking on stage? Um I would say I mean in many ways you know you're still you're still telling a story um and I think that's you know that's the most important kind of through line through song is is really communicating the story uh through your character and so you know through song it just allows you to just really maybe lean in a little more into some emotional pockets that you may not be able to do or find when speaking um to to just really get connected more so I mean I don't want to say more so because storytelling is is it's all it's all very kind of connected, like they're they're very they they partner very well in terms of speaking.

[14:09] Cornelius Smith Jr: Sometimes I'm singing a song, and you know, there may be a particular part of the song that works well with me speaking it and not singing it. That's how intertwined they are. And so it just allows you to just be a little bit more open and a little bit more kind of expressive because you know you're leaning into the sounds of the vowels, you're connecting the thoughts through, you know, in a certain tempo, and that kind of provides a certain foundation and landscape for you to play that you may not necessarily have if you're just kind of speaking it. And you know, also music. I mean, music has a heavy, heavy influence, you know. Most times you're speaking, you could be speaking over music, and that helps, but when you're singing with music and just the sound of the piano and the bass and the cello and all the other instruments, it just really helps you, I don't know, just go a little deeper in the emotional expression of telling the story that makes for a delicious exploration for myself as an actor and a singer.

[15:17] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Cornelius right after the break.

[15:28] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with the actor Cornelius Smith Jr. You mentioned that this is your first professional musical home. What's that experience been like for you?

[15:39] Cornelius Smith Jr: You know, it's been great. It's been great. I've just been so blessed and so kind of, you know, grateful. I've always wanted to do a musical and I didn't know when or how, and so this great opportunity presented itself, and I jumped all over it, and here I am. You know, I grew up singing in the church. My mom was a very, um, my mom believed in me from jump. Like, you know, she said I was a star from the beginning. And she was not shy to put me on blast at family functions to sing a song. She would famously say, "Neil, hit him with an A selection. Might as well give him a B and a C too." And so I just find myself, you know, really entertaining at a young age, entertaining family and just really being open to that artistic expression of just, you know, really being silly, just whatever kind of comes to mind, being expressive in that way.

And so that's carried over, obviously, into my industry because, you know, we as actors, we have to be able to really let go and really approach something without judgment so that you can fully embody and embrace the character and the story and really go there and not be blocked by really anything, so that the voice and the authenticity of the character and of that moment can really shine through.

[17:08] Gordon Cox: Tell us about your research process for American Prophet. How did you go about learning what you might not have already known about Frederick Douglass?

[17:19] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yeah, I mean, I read the autobiography, the biography by David Light. I took a look at that and perused some of his own autobiographies just to kind of get familiar with his story. And I mean, you know, the play focused on just really a tiny sliver of Frederick Douglass's life. I mean, this was, as we all know, an epic man who lived an epic life. And so, you know, I didn't know just the extents of his life from, I mean, it just really is something to behold. I mean, even as a young man, you know, being enslaved, escaping slavery, and becoming the icon that he is today, and just everything that he continued to fight for and accomplished, it's just monumental, and that's probably why he is regarded in the way that he is today.

So, you know, I read those, and then, you know, from an acting standpoint, I just worked with my acting coach, Jeff Prizer, just to really try to get a sense for where he lives and who he is in my body. You know, there were no recordings or audio recordings of Frederick Douglass, so nobody knows what he actually sounded like. There are descriptions of what he sounded like. You know, he had a baritone voice, but baritone is, you know, that's so rangey. Like, there can be a low barrel tone, a high barrel tone. Like, what does that mean? And so I just found myself just really kind of settling in to really find a voice that felt comfortable for me and that felt appropriate, and just finding, I mean, the thing that I love about just my approach and something that I kind of took away from NYU grad acting training is just this sense of play.

Like you have to play in order to discover. Play, play, play, let loose, let go, and play. And so that's really what I did with this character. I just let go, I let loose, I played around until I found something that really connected with me, a presence and persona that connected with me that I felt would represent him and embody him as best as I could. Because again, after all, it is a collaboration. You know, it's me playing Frederick Douglass. And so what that means to me and my interpretation and how that lives in my voice and in my body, and using what I like to say our golden currency as an actor is our imagination. So just using my imagination, letting that run wild to find something fun and resonant.

[20:02] Gordon Cox: And can you characterize what you really connected with in your version of Frederick Douglass? How would you describe your favorite?

[20:13] Cornelius Smith Jr: I mean, I would, I don't know. I guess I would describe it as, you know, when I read his speeches, he clearly was a man of intelligence, a highly thoughtful individual, critical, loving and critical of this country. And so there is to me just, you know, and then you think about just the life that he lived, there's pride, there is anger, there is resentment, there is inspiration, a sense of hope, a sense of holding others accountable, holding yourself accountable. And so just all of these things I think are just elements that I think about when I go to try to create and embody, like when I say, "Hey, what was it like to be Frederick Douglass?" I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. The only I can just attempt to imagine and come close to like what that must have been like to live during that time and to carry everything he carried.

I mean, you know, not only was he living in that time with everything, but he had to constantly be on the watch, you know, mobs attacking him at speeches, not being safe. It's not like he walked around with a security team or Secret Service. So, you know, he was a grown man who could defend and take care of himself not only with his mind and his words and through debate and argument, but there's a certain physicality of strength because, you know, he fought as master to escape. And just living back then, like you settled disputes and things with your hands. And that was just, you know, that was just the world that we lived in back then. And so there's a certain hardness I think that one could assume that had to be just there naturally for him to survive and to live in the world during that time.

So yeah, I mean, it's just a lot of different things that you think about, and then you take all of that and you try to find what fits best and then really forget about it and let yourself go so that you can really kind of play and explore and hopefully find deeper levels to convey his presence and persona.

[22:58] Gordon Cox: It feels like you probably had an unusual resource that a lot of actors don't have because you could think, "Hey, what was my character thinking?" And he wrote like three books about his life, right? Like you could go back and actually check maybe and see how that kind of influences what you do on stage, yeah.

[23:16] Cornelius Smith Jr: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he chronicled and talked about his life, and that's the amazing gift that he really left to the world is that he wrote it all down. It was in his own words. So if you have any question about what he thought or how he felt about a particular issue or topic at the time, he told you. He told you. He told you in a speech, he told you in a letter, he told you in the editorial, like, you know, through the paper, like there were so many ways that he was constantly communicating and getting his voice and thoughts out there.

[23:55] Cornelius Smith Jr: Uh and so yeah, I mean, I had a lot to draw on, and as I said, we had good talks and a great relationship with the family, and they were helpful and forthcoming too.

[24:06] Gordon Cox: It feels like American history is a thing that theater and musical theater in particular right now is very interested in reexamining. You know, we've got Hamilton, of course, and then last season there was a show at the public called SUFS that was about the suffragist movement. There's a new revival of 1776 coming to Broadway in the fall. I wonder what why do you think that what do you think the impulse is, and what do you feel like American Profit adds to the conversation? What does it bring in?

[24:36] Cornelius Smith Jr: Well, I don't mean I don't I I don't know what the impulse is. I mean, I think that we as a society and a culture, we're just constantly interested and fascinated with the past, uh, because we can learn from the past. You know, we should be learning from the past. And so, in order to learn from the past, you really have to examine it and really know what happened. And not many people, you know, there are people who do that as a living and who do that because they enjoy it, who are history buffs because they enjoy reading about history, but not many people really take the opportunity to go back to really learn the history. Um, so on one phone, I think it's an opportunity to obviously educate people about what happened in hopes to um to provide them with that education so that they can use that in their lives today to better themselves and and not make the same mistakes and also kind of see the bigger picture.

Um and then two, you know, if you can if you can do it in a way that's entertaining, you really get the best of both worlds where you're educating and entertaining and and um hopefully that makes kind of the biggest impact. Um I think American Profit is unique in that it's really the first time that we have seen um, to my knowledge, that we've seen a story about Frederick Douglass, you know, a story about an African American um figure uh played by African Americans, um, you know, for black people, about black people, with black people on stage. Uh so I think it's really unique in that way. And also, too, I mean, here is Frederick Douglass, this prolific figure that a lot of us know about, but there are just aspects and dynamics of his life that we don't know about.

And if we do know about them, we certainly haven't seen any of it on stage at all until this time. So I think it's just a unique opportunity to really educate people in Frederick Douglass and Anna's story, and also in that education, also to hope, hopefully sow seeds of hope, um, sow seeds of agitation of just really echoing the need to still the need to really fight for truth, to seek truth, to speak truth, um, and knowing that, you know, we love this country, and there's a lot of work that has to be done still to have a more perfect union, um, as was quoted uh by Frederick Douglass. Um, and so there it just takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of sacrifice. There have already been a lot of sacrifices made and a lot of work done, and it's just it's just a reminder that the struggle continues, as does the work clearly when we're looking at um what's going on today and and some of the setbacks that we've had today uh with regards to uh women's rights, uh voting rights across the country.

Like it's you know, there's setbacks. And setbacks happen when um setbacks can happen when we take things for granted and and not necessarily really continue to engage in the fight and demand uh changes from our elected officials and and letting our voices be heard at the ballot box as well. Um that's really where the fight takes place.

[28:12] Gordon Cox: We've talked a little bit about your film and TV work as well, and we should say that you right around the time that I'm speaking to you, there is a limited series on Apple TV Plus uh called Five Days of Memorial that is coming out uh pretty darn soon. Um but I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about do you have a sense of how working for the screen has influenced the way you uh are now returning to the stage? Is there has that working process uh taught you anything that carries over to what you're doing on stage?

[28:43] Cornelius Smith Jr: Yeah, I mean it's all life stuff. Actually, you know, when I first started auditioning uh for film and TV things when I was in grad school, you know, the feedback that I got was uh, you know, you're a great actor, but you're a little too big. Bring it down, tone it down there, buddy. Uh and so it was initially a really difficult transition for me to transition from stage work to film because it's just a different beast. I mean, you gotta you you gotta, it's different in that you know, you don't need to do as much in front of the camera. And so making that distinction for me was was was really um it just took some time, it took a lot of work. And so, but once I got it, because I worked at it, I got it.

Gosh dog it. Um, you know, it just really continues just to inform me more about me and my process and just just you know how I can have because I did comedy in high school too. So I was part of a comedy troupe called the Performing Arts Guild at Cass Technical High School. And so we did we did like improv skits for the school, kind of like a mad TV in Living Color, uh on a high school level. We did live theater skits in school. And so, you know, I'm very expressive and I can be very kind of animated. And you know, that can serve very well for certain type of characters on stage, but not as well for the camera. Like I can't be so big. And so, you know, it's just it's just taught me more and more about myself, about how I can be as expressive or as animated, but but still like doing less in front of the camera, if that if that makes sense.

Um, and so how has that translated coming back to the stage? It's just again, it's life. It's just it's just allowed me to trust myself more, to be more, you know, trusting in my impulses, more embrace in my impulses, just kind of knowing that wherever I decide to go creatively, I can support it, and and kind of knowing what what arena I'm in, how to support that with the breath, with the voice, uh, with my body kind of connecting all the tools. Um, and it's been great, you know. I've I've this is the most this production, American Profit is probably the most that I've sung ever in like in like a very long time. I want to say like life because I never done a professional musical. We do eight shows a week, and so that just requires a lot of um prepping, a lot of conscious awareness of of my breath, my voice, my throat, where I'm where the placement is.

It can get really technical, and that's where the training comes in, you know. You know, that's where the NYU training comes in that that I've done, and just other workshops and working with other um coaches and mentors of just really getting in line with with my with my tools and my tool belt with my vessel and how to approach that. So it's been it's been really, you know, to this day, it's it's I'm still discovering things. Uh luckily I haven't had any issues um with my voice. I'm I'm feeling good, I'm feeling great, uh I'm feeling supported. Um, but that's largely in part because I I work really hard to to make sure that I'm ready, I warm up, um drinking my tea, I'm doing my warmups, I'm doing my exercises, because you know, if you stay ready, you never have to get ready. And uh I stay in a perpetual revolving door of readiness.

[32:32] Gordon Cox: And what are the hopes for American Profit going forward?

[32:36] Cornelius Smith Jr: Going forward, um, yeah, I mean, I think New York. I think I think I hope the next stage is that we get to Broadway and we get to New York. Um, that that's kind of the the dream and the point, you know, with the production. Um, and so I'm all for that. Uh I I understand that there is interest, there is a lot of interest. And so I don't have any say of when and where. I just know that that something's gonna happen sometime next year, and I'm just looking forward to getting those details to finding out when because I think that this is really a it's just really a powerful production. It's a beautiful, powerful, relevant production that I think people really need to see, will want to see, and you know, it resonates with them.

I think, you know, as art is supposed to do when you leave the theater, you want to leave impacted, changed, um, you know, disturbed even. You can be disturbed, that's okay. Good disruption is good. Like, let's get the hardcores moving, let's get the mind racing about really, you know, where we are as a country and as a nation. Um, you know, this country is compiled of individuals. So if we can reach individuals and and have hearts and minds change on an individual level, um, you know, if we can if we can ignite that change inside the home with with with you, with me, with everybody individually, uh, at the kitchen table talks, you know, when you're talking around friends, that's where those kind of conversations really start to take place, where you can really affect the change that we all um I was gonna say, not all of us want to see, but majority, a vast, vast, vast majority of people in the world will love to see.

[34:25] Gordon Cox: Well, we look forward to seeing American Profit here in New York when it gets here. So uh thanks very much for thanks so much for joining me, Cornelius. It was great to talk to you.

[34:34] Cornelius Smith Jr: Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.

[34:39] Gordon Cox: That was Cornelius Smith Jr., the star of American Profit playing at Arena Stage in Washington, D.C. through August 28th. You can also catch him on screen in the new limited series Five Days at Memorial on Apple TV Plus. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps us grow our audience of folks who love theater as much as you and I do. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft, or give us a shout out on social media. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the pod purveyors, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Twitter at G CoxVariety. Thanks for listening, and see you at the theater.