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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes of the hottest shows on Broadway, Off Broadway and beyond. I'm your host, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the writer Katori Hall. The Memphis native first made a splash with her Olivier Award winning play, The Mountaintop, which had its starry debut on Broadway in 2011, featuring the formidable cast of Angela Bassett and Samuel L. Jackson. She's written a number of plays since, including Perch Village and Our Lady of Cabejo, and right now, she's got two shows running in New York. The Tina Turner musical, Tina, for which Hall wrote the book, has been running since the fall, and this spring, her latest play, The Hot Wing King, is having its world premiere at Off-Broadway's Signature Theatre Company.

Hall is in the studio with me to talk barbecue sauce, working with Tina Turner, and the very personal inspiration behind her new play. All right, so this is the interview portion of Stagecraft with Katori Hall. Hey, Katori, thanks for joining me.

[1:07] Katori Hall: Hi, Gordon, how are you?

[1:09] Gordon Cox: I'm great.

[1:10] Katori Hall: Good.

[1:11] Gordon Cox: So, The Hot Wing King follows a group of black gay men during the preparations and then the aftermath for the annual Hot Wing Festival in Memphis, and early on, there is a lineup of hot wings with a number of different flavors of varying degrees of sort of gourmet fusion flavors going on, which led me to my first question, which is, are you a hot wing aficionado, and do you have experience with any of those sort of outré flavors that you've got going on?

[1:35] Katori Hall: Oh, Chad, you have no idea. I am the hot wing queen of Memphis, Tennessee. Yeah, it's funny. I think most people think, when they think about Memphis, they think about barbecue, and yes, we are famous for our barbecue, but I would say Memphis is the hot wing capital of the world, to the point where they're actually going to start doing the world championship this year down in Memphis for hot wings.

[2:06] Gordon Cox: Because the festival is a real thing, or at least related to a real thing, yeah, yeah, right.

[2:10] Katori Hall: Definitely inspired by a real thing. I think we call ours just the Hot Wang Festival, and I think the real one is like Southern Hot Wing Festival, so I didn't use much imagination there.

[2:22] Gordon Cox: And do you have opinions about sauces and flavorings, and do you do that yourself?

[2:28] Katori Hall: Yes, you know, just because I was, you know, I grew up in a cooking family, like everybody can burn, that's, you know, Southern slang for you can cook real good, and my—

[2:41] Gordon Cox: And this is in Memphis, we should say, for people who don't know.

[2:43] Katori Hall: Yes, Memphis, my hometown. And so, you know, there is a science, there is an art to cooking. It is an artistic venture. And hot wings, specifically, there's just so many different variations to it, and like the best hot wings spots have this amazing menu, so I think at the top of the play, we basically kind of lay out the menu. We've got that lemon pepper wet, that lemon pepper dry, we've got hot, hot, and hot. And then, what's the other one? There's a blueberry one.

[3:12] Katori Hall: Oh yeah, and blueberry birds, which is so good. And oddly, I actually didn't, I've never seen blueberry birds in Memphis, I actually saw them in New York. There's this place called the Buddha Bar, which is in my old neighborhood in Washington Heights. And they, this cook created this concoction of chicken and blueberry, and it was so—

[3:37] Gordon Cox: It sounds great.

[3:38] Katori Hall: It was great, and it kind of made me be like, oh my God, there is a gourmet approach to chicken. Like, people think chicken is just like, ah, it's just, you know, pull people's food, but it's not. You can, you know, make it an elevated dining experience. And so the, what's your favorite wing flavor, first of all?

[3:54] Katori Hall: I like lemon pepper dry, but you have to, it has to be by a cook who has a light hand. Because if you put too much, it just goes salty, and it's just like, ah.

[4:05] Gordon Cox: And that's like a rub, basically?

[4:06] Katori Hall: It's kind of more like a dry rub. And then, you know, there's different kind of, you can do fried wings, and then there's grilled wings. I prefer fried wings, because I think the sauce sticks to it better.

[4:20] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, part of the kind of main event is around these, the making of these wings that are this, like, it's like, I mean, maybe I shouldn't spoil what the actual flavor is, but it's very, it's very gourmet, and it's got a lot of elements in it.

[4:36] Katori Hall: Too many elements. Gourmet buzzwords. Have you made that yourself, and do they actually make anything like it on stage? Because they...

[4:44] Katori Hall: So I came up with this, you know, recipe that, you know, you have to come see the show if you want to know what the—

[4:50] Gordon Cox: Yeah, exactly. No, I think that's right. Yeah.

[4:51] Katori Hall: ...gourmet chicken recipe is. And I did some research, and I started taking cooking classes in New York, and so I learned—

[5:01] Gordon Cox: For this play, or just for yourself?

[5:02] Katori Hall: No, in general.

[5:03] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[5:04] Katori Hall: I was for myself.

[5:05] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[5:05] Katori Hall: So I took a gourmet approach to cooking, and I learned about, you know, making different kinds of sauces, you know, from scratch, from scratch, from scratch. And so, on stage, every night, our family, they do the recipe on stage, and they have to eat it. So they have to cook it all the way through.

[5:28] Gordon Cox: Yeah, they do.

[5:29] Katori Hall: They have to do the flash fry right. And every day before the show, we go through the motions because it's a dance. You have hot, you know, eyes. I mean, there's the risk of getting burned.

[5:42] Gordon Cox: Of course.

[5:43] Katori Hall: There's the risk of dropping the sauce.

[5:44] Gordon Cox: Right.

[5:45] Katori Hall: And so, they kind of turned into this kind of mini kitchen line on stage. And it's one of my favorite parts of the show, to watch people do something, and there's a process happening right in front of your eyes. And it's kind of like watching sports, right? Like, you don't know what's going to happen. Is it going to burn? Is it going to be good? And you can smell it from the audience.

[6:04] Gordon Cox: You can smell it. You can absolutely smell it. You can smell the garlic. You can smell the butter.

[6:09] Katori Hall: Have you tasted it?

[6:10] Katori Hall: Every time during rehearsal, I'm like, wait a minute. Save me a wing, y'all. Save me a wing. But then they eat it up. And it's funny, one of the characters, Big Charles, he eats up all the sauce, and they made sure that he had bread so he can sop up all the sauce that, you know, doesn't get, you know, stuck to the wings. It's, it's a, it's really good.

[6:30] Gordon Cox: Right.

[6:31] Katori Hall: It sounds good.

[6:32] Gordon Cox: It's really good.

[6:33] Katori Hall: Yeah.

[6:34] Gordon Cox: Have you ever been involved in a competition like this?

[6:35] Katori Hall: I haven't been involved in a competition. I would like to, though, one day.

[6:39] Gordon Cox: And so, all the prepping and sous-chefing that they do, it's kind of, it's kind of the backdrop for this emotional story, right? That's going on with all these characters, particularly this couple, Cordell and Duane, and along with two of their friends, and Duane's nephew who shows up unexpectedly in the midst of them, you know, doing an overnight session of like jamming on these wings. And it sounds like, from what I've, from what I've read, and from what I've talked to you a little bit about, that this, the inspiration for this is a very sort of personal one for you. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

[7:09] Katori Hall: Absolutely. So, my brother, Wayne.

[7:10] Gordon Cox: Wayne.

[7:11] Katori Hall: Oh.

[7:12] Katori Hall: I didn't use much imagination there either.

[7:13] Gordon Cox: That's funny. All right.

[7:14] Katori Hall: But no, it's about him and his partner. Like, they've been together for 12 years now. And it's really just this opportunity for me who, I feel as though I've witnessed his love, I've witnessed their struggle, I've witnessed, you know, like the things and the ups and downs that they've gone through as a black gay couple living in Memphis, Tennessee. And I, it's a love letter to them. And I'm very grateful that they have always been very honest with me about their relationship. And Charles, my brother's partner, specifically, you know, he had a very interesting coming out where he was married. He didn't, I know, it just didn't cross his mind that he was ever going to be in a relationship with a man. And I remember having a very long conversation with him. And I was like, okay, you've been married, you have kids, like, are you bi or are you gay? And he was like, I'm just a man who's feeling love for your brother.

[8:19] Gordon Cox: And you don't often get to see stories about, like, a whole group of black gay men on stage.

[8:26] Katori Hall: I can't even think of one.

[8:27] Gordon Cox: I can't either, actually. Like, when I say don't often, I think of...

[8:30] Katori Hall: Yeah. I know like TV shows, like there's Noah's Ark, which I love, by Patrick Ian Polk, created a very revolutionary TV show. And even past that, I think he created The Skinny. I can't really think of much.

[8:46] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And certainly not on stage, right?

[8:49] Katori Hall: Like, that's...

[8:50] Katori Hall: Certainly not on stage.

[8:51] Gordon Cox: Not that I could think of, anyway. And so what felt important to you to sort of highlight in this story with these folks?

[8:56] Katori Hall: That it not really be about them being gay. That it be about them being human. That it be about them loving each other. That it be about them supporting each other. You know, I think coming out stories are cool. I love them. I think we should keep having them. But I kind of wanted to shift the expectation of a story about black gay men. And that, you know, it's like, they're already out.

[9:21] Gordon Cox: Right.

[9:22] Katori Hall: It is what it is. And that's not necessarily the center of the conflict. The conflict is, you know, how do we learn how to love each other as human beings? How do we create a partnership that is equal and both people feel loved? How do we, as a village of just black folks, you know, like, let's not even talk about being gay and black. It's just about us being black, taking care of family. You know, I think another surprising thing about the show is that, you know, you see this father and son relationship where, you know, the couple, they're kind of arguing over whether or not they're going to take care of Dwayne's nephew. And it's really kind of looking at, you know, how do we as black folk kind of step in when, you know, there are other struggles that are happening within a family unit.

You know, oftentimes, I've seen a lot of family members have to, you know, take in nephews and take in nieces and be the moms and the dads when the moms and dads weren't able to. And I find that to be, you know, a reflection of, like, all kinds of communities of color where the extended family, you know, is family. Like, there is no half-brother, there is no half-sister, that's your sister, that's your brother.

[10:41] Gordon Cox: Right, yeah. Did you, how did the, how did the pairing of the Hot Wings with this story kind of happen for you?

[10:49] Katori Hall: You know, I love what I call process plays where you see a group of people come together to create something. You know, I've written a play that's about quilting and this play that's about cooking just to see all hands on deck doing something and watching them beat by beat by beat, you know, do something, which is what I'm doing when I'm creating, when I'm writing. Like, it is a beautiful process, the beautiful process of creation. And so, I just felt like within this process, within this 24 hours, I want to deal with this, like, deep emotional story. And so, it was kind of, I kind of used it as a parenthesis, like a beginning and end. And within that time, I have to, you know, deal with how these men are going to figure out, is Cordell going to stay?

You know, like, is Vanessa going to sign the divorce papers? You know, what is going to be the family situation or the configuration of dads if they do take in this struggling nephew? So, like, all these questions are posed within that 24-hour period. Like, the Hot Wings get done, but, like, you know, life continues after that process. And I always felt like the play has to land on a question. There's no clear-cut reconciliation. I just think that this emotional story of this nephew needing their help just brings into sharp relief, like, all the unfinished business that these two men have within their relationship. And I think by the end, it's not a, like, kind of Hollywood reconciliation. There's no, like, I'm so sorry.

And, you know, you are the love of my life. It's like, no, you're the love of my life, but you make me fucking mad because that's authentic and that's, like, real life. But we're going to figure out how to work beyond because, like, next year, there's a festival, and next year I will be here. And that's all I want the audience to leave with is, like, I want them to be rooting for everybody on stage, not only, like, the couple, but, you know, this new kind of configuration of the American family that I've been very interested in putting on the American stage.

[13:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah. You don't think of it, it can be tempting to think of it as a comedy when you watch the first, you know, half hour or so because it's so funny, and they're having such a good time, and they're, you know, ribbing each other and doing all sorts of, like, they're just having a lot of fun. But as you're talking, I feel like it's clear that the listeners, that the players, yeah. You can laugh, though. You will laugh a lot, actually, but it takes on some really serious weighty issues.

[13:34] Katori Hall: Yeah, absolutely. And how long have you been working on this play? When did the sort of spark for it happen?

[13:37] Katori Hall: I feel like I've been working on it all my life, but it's a thing of when do you put pen to paper or fingertips to computer? Yeah, I would say two and a half years in terms of the actual putting it on the page, like, from Vomit Draft, and then I did roundtables at the Signature Theater. I, we ended up doing a three-day-long pre-rehearsal in December, and then we had, like, a three-week rehearsal period, which is too short for a new play.

[14:08] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. It's just too short. What have you been learning, what have you learned about the play over the course of putting it up? You're about to, this is, we are in previews right now as I'm talking to you for its world premiere run. What have you discovered?

[14:17] Katori Hall: Just, you know, that it's a tricky tone. I think in the Katori Hall universe, I embrace, like, goof-off laughter, lol laughter, with, like, oh my god, I'm crying moments, and they're like, you know, it flips, like, very quickly.

[14:35] Katori Hall: And I think in previous plays a lot of people have seen that and they felt like it's too sharp things that I've written. Mountaintop is one that comes to mind where the tone being funny and then it being about, oh my god, death, they're like, oh, that's just like too sharp of a turn. And so I think with this play I've kind of learned how to embrace the sharp turns, but there always be a kind of, I think because the story is so strong, it never feels like it jumps off track. That's just what I've seen in terms of craft and my growth as a writer. Other things that I've learned about the play, I mean, you just get an opportunity to clarify things or be like, oh, that's too much language, I need to pull that back.

There's still some things that I'm interested in fixing, like there's, I remember last week I was like, oh, there's a lull in the cooking section, let me give them some more language so that they can kind of keep the humor bubbling and percolating. And then once the process of cooking ends, it has a better kind of climax in that specific section of the play. So yeah, like constantly just standing back and molding and shaping. And you know, it's been a challenging process because not everybody on the stage has been in a new play process like this before.

[16:03] Katori Hall: Okay, yeah. And so kind of, and there's a ton of things to do, like they are really playing the piano, they are really singing, they are really playing basketball, they are really cooking, like all these different rituals, and you're throwing new lines at them. And I'm throwing, I was like, here's another chainsaw to juggle, you guys. Yeah. And so, but they've been really, really game. But you know, but I always tell them, I heard Brandon Jacobs Jenkins came in with a whole new second act one day, so don't get mad at me, but four more new lines, so don't get mad. Like this is a playwright's theater, Signature Theater is a playwright's theater, and y'all gotta do what y'all gotta do to make it work. But they have, like I said, they've been game.

[16:52] Gordon Cox: How are you finding the fact that it's this group of people that we don't get to see on stage very often? How is that reflected in the audience, their reaction, do you find?

[17:01] Katori Hall: Oh, so, um, the audience is so different every night. I always told the actors, like, you're gonna get a seventh scene partner, and it's that audience, and they're going to laugh, they're gonna stop your show sometimes, and you have to be very aware of them. In terms of the demographic that I've seen, it's funny, I think as a Black theater maker, we often do the count where we look at the audience and we just count how many Black folks up in there because it does change the interaction between the audience and the actors. Because I do think Black audience members are used to more call and response. It's a cultural thing, like there's no kind of need to feel be polite or to repress your kind of instantaneous appreciation or dislike.

[18:03] Katori Hall: Yeah, and so I do notice when the audience has more people of color, there's more of the back and forth, and the audience is just, they're more loud, you know, they're more present. But that's not to say that an audience that is older and white is not, they're not appreciating the play just like people of color, they actually are. There was one night where I decided I'm not gonna watch the show, I'm actually gonna watch the audience, and it was a Tuesday night, it might have been like that you went, I'm not, it was just this past week. So that was, I think that was a, but there was a talk back after that was, yeah, yeah, yeah, they were a little subdued. I was like, oh no, oh no, I was like, this show was off all night.

But I looked and no, I was like, no one's asleep, everyone zoned in, everyone staring at that stage. At the end, people are sharing tissues, so I was just like, okay, I don't think it matters what color you are, what gender you are, with your sexual preferences, you know, when you see this show. I do think because it's so specific, it is very culturally specific, but I think I've been able to, within that specificity, do something extremely universal. And I think that's why, you know, a little white lady's coming up to me, you know, crying at the end and saying thank you for this play.

[19:23] Katori Hall: Yeah, and a lot of people are like, how did you write this play? You're not no gay Black man, but I'm a human being. How do you think this play would fare in Memphis? How would audiences react in Memphis?

[19:36] Katori Hall: I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure. I do think that because there aren't a ton of images of Black gay people, period, whether it's film or TV, to have a play that we can't even, like we can't even think of what that play was before that has gay Black men in it, like it's almost like a quiet revolution to just see, you know, these men gather and be their beautiful loud selves. I hope that the South would embrace it, specifically in Memphis, because it is a play that is set in my hometown. But I think maybe Atlanta might do better in Atlanta versus Memphis, but you just never know. I do think art is a way to kind of like pull a society kicking and screaming into the now and into the future. And even if there's like one or two people in an audience in Memphis, I think it'd be worth doing the play there.

But obviously, there's still a lot of homophobia in all communities, so people may not take it in like, and even like, you know, I think it was like Sunday, there was this woman that I was sitting beside, or she was on my robe, and I think who EJ asked Cordell, like, you know, you prefer, you know, the D over the P? Like, I can't believe it. And then this woman's like, exactly. Like, she wanted to know why he preferred the D over the P as well.

[21:16] Katori Hall: Okay, so it's that thing of there's some judgment, but at the end, but she stayed on the journey with us even though she shared her opinion about the situation as well.

[21:31] Gordon Cox: And you're working with a director named Steve H. Brodnax III, and he's, from what I understand, he's been sort of involved in this project for a while. Yeah, tell me about your work with him and what he sort of brought to it.

[21:40] Katori Hall: Absolutely. So, um, Steve and I met when he did a production of The Mountaintop at People's Light, and I remember coming to People's Light, is it? I think it's in Melbourne, Pennsylvania, if I'm remembering correctly. I ended up going to a rehearsal and just, you know, and I think I was doing some changes and tweaks on the last monologue of the play, and we stole away to McDonald's one morning, and over very dry sausage and biscuits, we were talking about, you know, the future, like things we wanted to work on. And I told him about this idea about this play called The Hot Wing King that was gonna be based on my brother and his partner, and he was like, you have to write that play. Steve would be the first person to tell you that he's, you know, a same-gender loving Black man, and he was like, I don't see those plays.

I don't see myself reflected in the American theater. And so over the course of years, I would get an email every now and then from him, like, where them pages at? Have you started the play? Where they at? Where they at? And you know, he's from Little Rock, Arkansas, you know, an hour away from Memphis, an hour and a half away from Memphis, and um, so very much understood the South and understood the need for a nuanced, complicated portrayal of that community, him being from that community. And so I always say that the play never would have gotten written if he wasn't so annoying and sending me these emails every once in a while.

[23:16] Katori Hall: But you know, once I got that vomit draft done, we ended up doing a roundtable, and from very quickly, you know, Signature was like, we really want this to be your last play of your residency here, right? Well, is it the last one already? I guess it is. It took me eight years to do my five-year residency. I mean, that's how writers work, right? I know I had babies, all kinds of stuff was happening.

[23:35] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Katori right after the break.

[23:51] Gordon Cox: Now here's more with playwright Katori Hall. And in addition to The Hot Wing King, you've got, of course, another show running in New York, Tina. You're from sort of the same area as Tina's from, not Memphis, right? But I think that was probably an hour away from...

[24:10] Katori Hall: Yeah, very close. How did you find that sort of shared heritage was useful as a perspective as you were thinking about putting her life on stage?

[24:18] Katori Hall: Oh, I think it was everything. I feel as though the one thing that I always said I was going to bring to that production was that I wanted to provide context. I wanted to provide social context, cultural context, psychological context. I think when you are a Black person growing up in the South and growing up at the time that she did, you just come with a difficult inheritance. And I want to make sure that that was interwoven through every scene and fed into the songs. And I think we were really, really successful in doing that. And Tina herself really understood the need for authenticity, really wanted to like get it right in so many different ways. And I really think we were able to do that.

You know, with her, heaven, it just, it's crazy that I ended up, I'm from Tennessee and she's from Tennessee, but I was really able to use my own lived experience to kind of, you know, make moments more grounded because as a jukebox musical, it's dark. It's like a very, like the rot, highly rot emotional experience. And it's because of that difficult inheritance that I think, yeah, a lot of Black folks and Tina's life wasn't always so easy.

[25:35] Katori Hall: Right, it was not. Yeah, no going on the river. Yeah, yeah. How hard, I mean, making a musical is really hard in general. Making, I feel like the particular challenge for someone like you working on, as you called it, a jukebox musical is you have to, the songs exist already, and so you have to figure out how they can serve a dramatic purpose and fit them into the story that you need to tell, right? How hard did you find that? And did you enjoy that process?

[26:07] Katori Hall: Enjoy the process quite a bit. I'm actually very musical. Like there's music in probably every play that I've ever written. And I think the language of the South has a musicality. And so, yeah, I can't say it was easy, but I can't, but it wasn't the most difficult process. I think it was because of the freedom that I had to use the songs in any way and in any order that I wanted. You know, Tina only wrote one song her entire career, it was "Nutbush City Limits." And so you, it was hard to be like, well, if she's not writing the songs ever in her career, like how do we make sure that we're telling this very difficult journey from tragedy to triumph, but using these songs in her catalog? Some songs, you know, just really hard to figure out how to use.

But what I found very interesting is that even over the course of her career, she gravitated towards songs that actually did reflect what she was going through at the moment, or if it didn't reflect at the moment, there it was reflecting on a moment that happened in the past.

[27:22] Katori Hall: And so that was one of the main reasons we decided to be very anachronistic to the approach to where the songs laid. So you have songs that are from the 80s, you know, fitting in scenes that are in the 60s, and we're, you know, doing different arrangements, but it's very recognizable, right? So I love the freedom that she gave us.

[27:38] Gordon Cox: What was the hardest song to get in there?

[27:43] Katori Hall: Oh, that's a good question. Oh, that's not really probably "We Don't Need Another Hero." And I know some people are mad at us for including the song where we included it. Yeah, because, you know, it happens when she has figured out how to stand in her power and has finally pushed Ike away, and she has also accepted that her mother is a broken woman. And so this idea, like what the Thunderdome is, is the life that she has been living. And so when she goes, "We don't need another hero," she's like, I don't need to, basically what I wanted it to reflect was that she doesn't need anyone else to shore her up. She doesn't, she never needed Ike. She never really needed to be part of the review in order to have this amazing voice.

Like she always had it in herself, and her mother will never be her hero. All these people who kind of came in and broke her, she'll, she has to be her own hero. So that's kind of, that's what happens at that moment where she kind of transitions into the Tina that we ended up knowing and loving with that, you know, lioness hair. And so I would say that song is the more the most metaphorical, but I felt like the placement was quite right because it was.

[29:09] Katori Hall: Letting so much of the pain and the tragedy of her life go through that. I think there's something to using the theater as this place where stories need to be witnessed and to be in the room with violence and to be in the room with hardship and to be in the room with blood. I think it makes you understand that depth and that pain and to be in that abyss with her when you are in the room with it. There's something to watching it on a screen and being able to turn it off, but when you are locked in that space and you are breathing and hearing the cries of a child that's being beaten, it is transformative. It makes you truly, truly just understand like how disempowering violence is. And so because she has lived her life like an open book, I think she was very, even though she had some trepidation, she wanted us to be truthful to that pain and to that violence.

And so I never wanted to shy away. We actually ended up probably cutting out one fight just because we were like, oh, do we really, really need him to like throw a symbol at her head again? You know, it's like, okay, I think we got the point. But it was just very important to, you know, it's honesty, transparency because that's how she lived her life.

[31:22] Gordon Cox: What did you learn about yourself and your work working on Tina and working with Tina?

[31:28] Katori Hall: That I'm a vessel. I don't have any ego when it comes to this work. I feel as though there are just voices in my head and my fingers are just recording what these beautiful people are saying. And I never was nervous. I just was like, Tina, I'm here to be a cup for your tears and my fingertips will be used in service to you, to honor you, to honor your humanity, to honor your struggle. And so I really come, I think now I come to writing from a much different place where I don't necessarily need a pat on the back. I actually wasn't, I had a conversation with my agent. I'm like, should I even put my name on this project? Because you know, I'm, you know, I'm coming in and, you know, I can be uncredited, but they're like, no, sorry.

They're like, nope, nope. I'm like, okay. But yeah, I, I, I think maybe it's, it's age, it's wisdom. I just feel as though I, I want to constantly be a vessel and I'm very much dedicated to stories about women, stories about marginalized communities. And if I can do that for the rest of my life, I'll be happy. I will lay down in my grave. I'm very happy.

[32:48] Gordon Cox: Yeah. I'm sitting across the table from you for listeners who cannot see you. You're wearing a hat that says P-Valley. It's in pink. You've got a jacket on that says P-Valley season one on it. And P-Valley is the TV show that you were working on. Tell us about that.

[33:02] Katori Hall: Yeah. So P-Valley is based on my play Pussy Valley that I cannot get. Not appropriate for the television. Not appropriate for Comcast and Time Warner, all them folks. It's, it's based on that play and it's set in a strip club down in Mississippi and it follows the lives of a quartet of women as they figure out, you know, how to use the pole as a place of empowerment. Even though, you know, they are in an unfortunate position because oftentimes strip clubs can be a place of exploitation. But I think what the show is trying to do is show that even in places of exploitation, people can find moments of liberation. And so that the piece is very, very interesting. It's been an amazing process, but very challenging because I've had to, you know, find women who can pole dance and act their asses off.

[33:58] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And how have you found the experience of television overall? Because you're, you're the showrunner of the show.

[34:03] Katori Hall: Yeah, I was the showrunner. And it was one of those things where they were like, no, we're going to, we're going to find someone to showrun with you. And no one lasted. They're like, uh-uh. Because it's, it's a, it is so different. It is so different from the theater, but there's, there's some similarities. I would say the major difference is just that TV is about stories that got legs and, and characters that you want to be with for not just two hours, but maybe, you know, 10 years. So trying to figure out how to kind of adapt your play or be inspired by your play and, and, and make a, a story engine in, in a place with characters that, you know, kind of had a, a, an ending and trying to figure out, well, how do they go beyond that ending?

It was, you know, it was a struggle, but the beautiful thing about TV is that it's not just you. In American TV, you have a writer's room and I had some amazing writers. Like I was talking about Patrick Ian Folk earlier, who created Noah's Ark. He was one of my co-EPs. Tamara P. Carter, she worked on The Leftovers. Amazing writer, just like beautiful, beautiful writers who were supporting my, this particular vision that I had in my head. And, you know, playwriting is so lonely. It's just you in a room. Then eventually you'll get to the actors, but you know that's, I would say that's the, the major difference. I will say the big similarity between the two is that particularly if you are a showrunner, it is your vision.

You have so much control. Like it, it reminded me of when I had meetings at Signature and I, I would be like, no, I don't like that part of the set, or I don't like that costume because it's a playwright's theater. So oddly, I would say my time at Signature probably trained me to be a showrunner because I never, and that's, that's interesting, right? You wouldn't have, you wouldn't think that.

[36:10] Gordon Cox: And this is when does it, it premieres this summer?

[36:16] Katori Hall: Yes. So June 7th is our premiere date.

[36:21] Gordon Cox: I was gonna say, is that Tony night?

[36:21] Katori Hall: It's Tony night. I was like, well, I hope I have a busy night that night. I mean, we'll see. We'll see.

[36:30] Gordon Cox: And that's on Starz, yeah?

[36:30] Katori Hall: It's on Starz. Okay, great. One question I've always wanted to ask you is your, the play that we, most of us first encountered of yours was The Mountaintop, which got its start not anywhere in the U.S., but at this little tiny, you know, theater upstairs in a pub in London.

[36:42] Katori Hall: Theater 503. Yeah. How did young playwright Katori Hall, who most people have not heard of at that point, get her play into the hands of folks all the way in the U.K. to put on in a little pub?

[36:57] Katori Hall: So crazy, right? So a lot of people don't know, but I started out acting. I did not know that, actually. Yeah, I started out as an actor, and I remember James Dacre, who eventually directed Mountaintop, was in New York on a Fulbright, and I auditioned for him. And I think it was like an Anne Bogart class. It was like, very avant-garde. And so we kept in touch. We kept in touch. And I was working on the play at the Lark Theater Development Center. Here in New York.

[37:34] Katori Hall: Here in New York City. And I remember he emailed me out of the blue and was like, hey Katori, what are you working on? I'm like, I'm working on this play here. Read it. And three days later, he was like, I convinced a theater called Theater 503 to produce it. All right. Do you want to do it? I was like, sure. I got nothing else to do. Like, what? Come on, I'm like 28 years old at the time. Like, whatever, let's go do this. So I went to London. It's so funny, I remember I was supposed to graduate from Juilliard that year, and I didn't even go to graduation because I had to get on a plane.

[38:13] Gordon Cox: What did you study at Juilliard?

[38:18] Katori Hall: I was in the playwriting program.

[38:18] Gordon Cox: Oh, okay. I just suddenly thought, wait, did I not know all along that you were an actor at Juilliard?

[38:24] Katori Hall: No. And yeah, I flew over there and started rehearsals with, I think it was David Harewood and Lorraine Burroughs, and it was a wonderful experience to be outside of America and be working with actors who didn't necessarily have this kind of, I would say, knee-jerk protective feeling towards King. There was this cultural distance where they felt like they can, or they didn't feel the need to just not be honest and not be truthful, which is what the play is. It's a very warts and all portrayal of him. It pokes fun at him even. And they were willing to do that very transgressive thing that a lot of actors in America were not interested in doing. I remember I had done readings and people dropped out of the readings once they read the play.

I had developed it in so many different places, and they were like, I don't want to do that workshop production because you know, you're reading Dr. King's filth and we ain't got him. So I just lucked out when it came to that email that I got from James Dacre one day.

[39:36] Gordon Cox: And so looking ahead, what's next for you? You've got a TV show premiering this summer on Tony Night, and you're just coming off the signature residency. Looking ahead, what's next?

[39:47] Katori Hall: I'm interested in obviously continuing to write plays. I will never leave the theater. I will never, ever, ever leave. So get used to me. I have all these commissions that I need to finish because I've been so busy with this TV show. I have TV show ideas. I've even thought about turning Halloween King into a TV show. That occurred to me about halfway through the play. I thought this would be fun. It would be fun to hang out with these people a longer term.

[40:19] Gordon Cox: Yeah. So, you know, fingers crossed, you know, there's something in the future for that piece as well. Right. Yeah. And are you interested in doing another new musical?

[40:29] Katori Hall: Yes, I'm actually interested in doing a musical based on me and my husband. We met in Uganda, and I always say to people we had to get married in order to date. Okay. So kind of like a 90 day fiancé type situation. And so I wanted to do a musical because he's a singer songwriter. His name is Alan Scoop. And so we've been coming together and doing songs. He's been jumping on my songs. I'm now a rapper named Little Bad Cousin. I have many, many hats. So what ended up happening was my budget, my music budget for P-Valley wasn't the best. So there was in episode two, I needed a song and I could not afford the songs. Like episode two was crazy. We were like over budget by like triple in music.

[41:50] Gordon Cox: Is this episode two, like I'm presuming you made a pilot and waited a while for them to green light it? Or like, was this the full second? Did this feel like really the first episode of the show for you?

[41:58] Katori Hall: No, no, no. They had, it was kind of like more like a series order. Okay, great. Yeah. It really was your second episode. It was crazy. And I was like, I need a piece for this moment. I was like, you know what, I'm going to go in the studio. So what was interesting, like we were in Uganda on vacation. And so my husband has this producer that he works with. They went in, they produced a track for me and then I came in and I just rapped over it. And then we did, you know, some like mixing it. So it doesn't kind of, it doesn't really sound like me, but it does. And we laid it into, into the show.

[42:16] Gordon Cox: Delightful. Yeah. I can't wait to hear it.

[42:16] Katori Hall: I'm going to send it to you. I'm going to send it to you. You can tell me if it slaps or not.

[42:22] Gordon Cox: Have many jobs, Gordon. Clearly. Yeah. And so I think probably we should end on a really important question, which is if listeners find themselves in Memphis, where do they find the best hot wings?

[42:31] Katori Hall: Oh, Ching's. Okay. See, I knew you'd have an answer. Yeah. They're my, it's funny. We, we name check it in, in the play. Oh yeah, you did. Yeah. But then Cordell's is going to come. So Cordell's. Yeah. We look forward to it. Well, thanks Katori. It was great to talk to you. Thanks for being here.

[43:01] Gordon Cox: That was playwright Katori Hall, whose latest the hot wing King is now having its world premiere at off Broadway signature theater. Her work can also be seen on Broadway in the hit Tina Turner bio musical Tina. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of stagecraft, I'd so appreciate it. If you took the time to rate and review us on Apple podcasts, find past episodes and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify and the Broadway podcast network and anywhere else, finer podcasts are dispensed. And if you've got feedback, find me on Twitter at G Cox variety. I'll be back next week with another new episode until then. See you at the theater.