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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast. Your backstage pass to revealing conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders. On Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond. I'm Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Leslie Odom Jr. He's an actor who will probably need no introduction for most listeners of this podcast because he's the guy who originated the role of Aaron Burr, sir in Hamilton and won a Tony Award for his performance. Since then, he's appeared on screen in Murder on the Orient Express, Glass Onion, Abbott Elementary, and the upcoming movie The Exorcist Believer. He was nominated for an Oscar for his performance as Sam Cook in One Night in Miami. He's also a recording artist who's released four albums and counting.

But in all those years since he left Hamilton in 2016, he hasn't been back on Broadway until now. He's playing the lead role in Aussie Davis's comedy Pearly Victorious, and he's in the virtual studio with me to tell us about the play that brought him back to Broadway at last. Hey Leslie, thanks for joining me.

[1:10] Leslie Odom Jr: Oh my pleasure. Thank you, Gordon.

[1:12] Gordon Cox: So we're talking just before the show is about to open, and you've been in previews for a couple of weeks now. How's the show going? How's the audience reacting?

[1:20] Leslie Odom Jr: Oh, it's been um I I'm a fan of Broadway and the theater, you know. I I've seen a lot uh more theater than I've done, as you can imagine. Um, but I've I've done a few Broadway shows as well. Um this one is is special. You know, when I'm talking to family and friends around the around the country and in the surrounding uh states, you know, I grew up in Philadelphia, which is just a couple of hours away. I'm like don't don't miss this one. You know, um, as an avid theater goer, I've never seen anything like Pearly Victorious, and I've certainly never been a part of something that's that's quite like it. It is such a special piece. People are getting it, they're loving it. And um, it's just a really joyful time at the music box. We're so thankful. Because you never know, you know, you never know if people are gonna feel about a piece the way that you do.

[2:29] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[2:30] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah. When you say you've never seen a piece quite like this, what can you expand a little bit more on kind of what the piece you think is offering that you haven't seen?

[2:39] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah, it's the um the joy quotient meets you know, that that joy. I'll say this. Mr. Davis sat down to write a piece about his childhood growing up in the rural segregated South. Um this would have been, you know, when Mr. Davis was growing up, it would have been the 30s, 40s, 50s, you know, in rural segregated Georgia. Those are hard times, you know. And I mean, he's he's seen some stuff, he lived through some stuff, and he wanted to write about it. And um what he realized early on in his process was that it was too painful to ask an audience to sit through. And so he the the piece in its inception, you know, started as this act of generosity. He wants so desperately for an audience to come to this farm and meet the people he grew up with uh in in the in the place that he loved and the only place he ever knew is home uh but he also wants you to be able to endure it he wants you to be able to to stand it um and so there is this joy that um you know the audience is not the only one that gets to participate in that joy we get it as well so it is so much fun and um earns the kind of he picks he picks his moment the way great writers do you know he does pick his moment where he decides to say something um you know that that thesis he gets a chance to say what he intended to say but by then you know the audience is so disarmed and they're so happy to be there they've been having such a wonderful time that I think that they can really hear it you know in a way that they m they wouldn't have been able to hear it if if we'd said it in the first five minutes.

[4:48] Gordon Cox: Yeah yeah and Pearly Victorious is a relatively short play. You're doing it in one act uh at on on Broadway uh and yet it's it pearly is a big big challenging role you do it a lot in that you know hundred and 105 minutes or whatever how's it how's it treating you um so okay I mean um when I am at my best as a as a an artist, when I'm kindest to myself, you know, I'm choosing material that is worth the effort. Um because everything that you do, everything that I do at this point is gonna there's some degree of sacrifice, whether it's the toll it takes on my body or the time away from my family. Or you know, there's there's some sort of sacrifice involved in almost every job that I take. And so as I said, when I'm when I'm at my wisest, my um kindest to myself, you know, I'm choosing material that is worthy of the sacrifice and Pearly Victorious certainly is.

It um never so far it does not take more than it gives. And so I am back with my my college voice teacher um just making sure that I'm not doing any damage to my voice and I'm um a little older than the last time I was on Broadway, so I have to take my warm-ups very seriously, you know, I I get to the theater about two hours before the show and I do a nice gentle warm-up, you know, of my voice and my body during that time so that I can make sure I'm not doing any kind of damage to myself. But other than that, um so far so good. I, you know, my my voice comes back with a good night's sleep. Uh you know I'm sort of tired by the end of each show. Two show days are a little tough but so far so good.

[6:47] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And Pearly Victorious is a play you've wanted to do for a number of years now. When did you first encounter the play and w why was it something that uh when did you know that it was something you really wanted to do?

[7:00] Leslie Odom Jr: I was in high school when I first encountered it. There's, you know, there's probably about 10 to 15 plays that if you're a young black actor, uh, they they get shoved in your hands. I imagine, you know, um, if you're a young woman or for if you're a young Asian actor, if you're a young, you know, Latino actor, you know, the there's there's a handful of uh pieces that people uh ahead of you give you, you know, hey, look at this thing. And um Pearly Victorious was was one of those pieces. And so, you know, it has monologues in it that you can do for auditions and scenes you can work on for scene study class. And so I'd been aware of it. I I don't know where it came from when when I sort of I'll say that better.

Um I've learned to not question where inspiration comes from. You know, when I'm given an idea, when when an idea comes to my heart when I'm inspired to do something, I assume that those are my marching orders from God, and I and I go about the business of walking it down, seeing if I can make good on that inspiration. Because chances are, if you have that great idea, you know, I I kind of operate under the idea that the belief that somebody else could quite possibly have the idea at the same time, or it's that they even even more tragic would be um if you don't do it, it doesn't get done. If there's some great idea that comes to your mind, comes to your spirit, something that you are inspired to do, something that you can see it, you can see the way it's supposed to happen and how it's supposed to feel, yeah, almost the sadder version of that is if you don't do it, it'll never get done.

It'll never get done in the way that you could have done it. So yeah, there was some somebody, some smart interviewer like yourself asked me, uh, I think the day after the Tony Awards in 2016, what what I what was next, what I wanted to work on next. And I said, Pearly, I've always wanted to do Pearly Victorious. I don't know, yeah. I don't know where that came from. It took but took about six or seven years, and here we are.

[9:28] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Uh a lot of uh theater goers, including me, first encountered the character in Pearlie and his story in the musical. There's a musical adaptation uh from 1970. And of course, you saying yourself, did it ever occur to you to look at the musical as opposed to the play?

[9:44] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah, I just um I just knew that the that the character and the material was so um challenging, you know, not and what I was really looking for, as you can imagine, was you know what would be a bigger challenge than what I had just done. I mean, Lynn had given me the greatest challenge up until that point of my career. I mean, without question. And so when that happens, you go, God, okay. I mean, what would be harder than this? Pearly Victorious might be, you know, playing Sam Cook might be. You know what I mean? Those kinds of things, yeah. I mean, it's really just been that. I mean, what what would be um what way can I challenge myself? In what way, what's the new frontier, what's a new mountain to climb?

And so that's what it was. And um, it didn't matter to me which it what whether it was the musical or the play. Um, yeah, didn't matter to me. Uh, but I was man, I'm I I'm so happy that we it was it was important to Mr. Davis' three children, um Nora, Hasna and Guy, they make up the estate now of the D. Davis family. Um two two girls and a boy, Guy. Guy is the is is their their son. Guy, fun fact, um has written all of the music for our production. This gorgeous um music, it's somewhere in between classical and folk country music. It's just it's this gorgeous um incidental music that we have in the play that really helps us um drop right into the the world of of that farm. Anyway, they it was they're important to the to them that their father's words were if the piece should ever make it back to the stage that it would that it would make it back in its original form first, and that if the musical followed or whatever the way that it did the first time around that that would be fine with them, but I'm so happy that we're doing this play.

I mean, people are coming and um it's what it's what Mr. Davis always wanted. You know, they are they are receiving this play, um and recognizing it um in the way that he'd always hoped, you know, as an American classic, because that's what it is.

[12:09] Leslie Odom Jr: Um I think we're gonna see productions of Pearly Victorious pop up all over the country after this.

[12:15] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[12:16] Leslie Odom Jr: Are you enjoying doing the kind of full-out comedy that Pearly is? Because you are as much a comic character, playing a comic character as much as a heroic character.

[12:26] Gordon Cox: Oh yeah, tell me a little bit about how you uh how you balance uh kind of I mean there's the message of the play, but then there's also the fact that Pearly is often kind of ridiculous, right? Like as all the characters are at the play, right?

[12:39] Leslie Odom Jr: Oh, I mean, oh c, you know, comedy is, I think I probably am at this point maybe a little more thought of as a dramatic actor, but I mean there's some really silly moments in Hamilton. There's certainly some silly, you know, I've, I'm always looking for um those moments. I mean, because that's life. I don't know. Yeah, my father, um, you know, was, um, is, I said was, you know, think about him as a child. He's a very different man now in his old age, but certainly as a child, you know, my dad was totally absurd. You know what I mean? Like he was he was so um gallant and brave and ridiculous and and terrifying and and and all that stuff, you know, and and I had those kind of figures all over my family.

My grandfather was a man like that too. Yeah, I mean, oof. There's there was some three-act plays that I saw. So to so to yeah, to bring all of that to Pearly, you know, what if you if the stakes are big enough, if the fear is big enough, if the danger is big enough, what ridiculous thing won't we do? You know, I'll climb, I'll climb up the rafters up into the top of the theater and you know, to run away from a real kind of danger. I'll jump down and and learn to fly on the way down if something was trying to chase me from my case. So um we certainly are wading around in a world with that kind of danger with those kind of stakes and so and then it helps tremendously to be across from one of the great comedians of our time, Kara Young, two-time Tony Award nominated actress, um, who's just brilliant as Ludie Bell. If you don't have any interest in seeing me as Purdy, you've got to see Kara Young in one of the performances of the season, if not the performance of the season. Uh she's so special.

[14:51] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. And you're also you're working with a very busy director, Kenny Leon, uh on the show. And uh tell me a little bit about how what his perspective and how his take on the show has influenced kind of what you're doing and your work on the character.

[15:08] Leslie Odom Jr: Well, Kenny grew up on a farm just like the one that we're uh um that is depicted in our play. And um he grew up not far from, you know, he grew up in Florida, but that tip, that um northern tip, which is you know, the neighbor to uh southern Georgia. And so he brought us that um, you know, veracity and um understanding the the sounds and smells and sights that that we are trying so hard to evoke from the stage. And then Kenny's just um I've only really worked with um you know one other director, kind you know, he Regina reminded me, or can't, you know, my experience with Kenny is a lot like the experience I had with Regina. Um and then all the time. This is on One Night in Miami, we should say.

[16:07] Gordon Cox: That's right.

[16:08] Leslie Odom Jr: And then uh the great Regina King, yes, we I should say our full name. But um yeah, Kenny is his wisdom is unlike unlike many, many directors. Uh he's just he's just extraordinary. He made a company of us, he made an ensemble of us, he dropped us all into the same world. Um he keeps us focused on on truth uh and the dignity of of our very, very specific experience. Um these are people that if you uh grew up in the south, or if you have family members that grew up in the south, you know, you will recognize your ex, you know, you will recognize your experience of knowing these people, and then if you if you didn't, it's just a wonderful opportunity to get to know um as W.E.B. Du Bois, you know, wrote about it, just to get to know the souls of black folk. You know, this is this is who we are.

[17:14] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Leslie right after the break.

[17:25] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with the actor, singer, and producer Leslie Odom Jr. As you mentioned, this is your first time uh on Broadway since Hamilton. Uh how is it feeling to be back on Broadway and in the Broadway community?

[17:40] Leslie Odom Jr: Um there's there's nowhere I'd rather be. If there was I'm I'm very thankful, very grateful for all of the wonderful opportunities that have come my way since being a part of that original company. I'm so glad that I that I don't have to just choose, you know, to be on stage that I can make my albums every now and again and make a movie and pop up on a TV show. Those are really all one write books, you know. Those I just I love it all. But if I did have to choose between you and me, you know, I I would only be in a great play um once every few years. It's uh there's just nothing like it. My training prepared me for it. It's what I I started doing, you know. I I thought that I would only ever be on stage, you know.

I I say this only sort of in jest, you know, my I was 13 years old when a show came out called Rent that um changed my life and my highest dream for myself. The biggest thing I could ever imagine was that I would one day be in Rent, and I would do that show until I, you know, until I turned 40 or something, and then I would retire and go do something else. I mean, I you know, I didn't I didn't think that there was a an industry beyond that show. That was that was the dream. I ended up doing the show. I was 17 years old when I went into that show on Broadway. And so I got to um see what it was like to be a professional and work alongside professionals, and I got my equity card and all that stuff, and and so after that only was I able to dream about what might what a career might be beyond that show.

Um but I I still feel in a whole lot of ways, I have to say, like I'm just really trying to be a part of pieces of work that make me feel the way that show made me feel. That's all I'm ever trying to do. And Hamilton certainly was that, and Pearly Victorious absolutely is that.

[19:53] Gordon Cox: You're also on the producing team of Pearly Victorious. Tell me a little bit about that impulse to produce as well as uh, you know, create.

[20:01] Leslie Odom Jr: Um I I just have to tell you I'm I'm the happiest that I've ever been. I was sitting across from my producing partner last night, uh, after the eighth show of the week, and I was just telling her how happy I am. Um at this time in my life. It's just uh there's just um there's always been something in every experience that I've been a part of, you know, there's always been something that I felt like I couldn't express, something I couldn't say, some obstacle, some you know, great challenge emotionally or professional, you know, spiritually in the business. It's just it's always um and so I've just been tied in knots, you know, for 20, 25 years, you know, always. And this is the first Nicolette was saying, well, it's the first one where you are fully expressed.

I'm not the only voice in the room. I don't even have to be the loudest voice in the room, but producing alongside Jeffrey Richards and uh and our the rest of our producing team, uh they've allowed me a voice. I've I get to be I get to be heard in the room. If there's something that that bothers me or something that I can contribute that I think could be helpful, I'm I'm listened to, I'm heard. They may make another decision, which is fine, but I but I I'm not tied up in knots because I I got to express myself. I got to say what I believe and what I think. And I'm just a valued member of a team, of a community. And so it's just so satisfying to be able to have that part of the experience to be able to answer the needs of the people around me, you know, if if my fellow castmates, if there's people in the building that have things that that they are feeling, I get to be a part of problem solving and making sure that other people feel heard and valued. It's just um the healthiest, most gorgeous process I've ever been a part of.

[22:20] Gordon Cox: Process.

[22:22] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah. The uh there are a number of well-known producers who have signed on to Pearly. You've got like Samuel Jackson and LaTanya Richardson Jackson and Felicia Rashad and Terry Washington and Omni Asamo and Alan Alda, who was in the original production of Pearly, by the way. Um tell me a little bit about kind of what that how what the what the function of kind of well-known producers is. Like what do they how do they help a show connect with an audience?

[22:52] Leslie Odom Jr: Sure. Um that is a, you know, I I can kind of remember when that started happening uh more and more often on the scene. You know, I the the first one that I can that was like a sort of a big deal. Of course it had happened from time to time before then, but I remember when when Jay-Z presented Fela on Broadway, you know, and that was like a that was a thing. It's um we are a part of a generation that is continuing to try to um grow an audience, develop an audience on Broadway to let um black and brown communities know through our messaging that Broadway is a place that we are welcome um on stage and in the audience, you know, and that kind of thing needs to it's it there's a that's uh um a multi-pronged, you know, uh agenda, you know, set set of things that we have to do.

[24:08] Leslie Odom Jr: And so part of it is that, you know, part of it is getting people, um, really well-known people who are aligned with the work in some way spiritually, um, emotionally, you know, that they can co-sign. That this is like, hey, di I I this has my stamp of approval. Um and maybe you don't know, maybe you don't know this work in particular. Maybe you haven't heard of Leslie Odom Jr., maybe you only know him as Aaron Burr. Or you, you know, and so you know, Samuel Jackson's gonna say this has my stamp of approval. Latanya's gonna say that, Carrie's gonna say that. And so it's very helpful to us to help to get the word out. Um, and uh, you know, this is only Broadway's second year back. It's not, by the way, it's not, it's not, it can't always keep the doors open.

You know, there have been uh Fela was uh an example where it did. I saw Fela, I think two or three times. Fela was an extraordinary piece of theater. My goodness. It had, you know, these like I was about, you know, Fela Kuti, and it had these like, I don't know, 12, 13 women always around him. Bill T. Jones choreographed this thing, and though those women, you could come to the show and pick a new woman every show. I mean, they had these deep, rich, you know, lives all their own, and they were just so gorgeous and fascinating, and the movement was so oh my god, but Fela, you know, they didn't really latch on and find an audience, so they closed early. Um, but this is only the second year back after Broadway's largest shutdown in its history.

And so um a great deal of the audience was lost to uh to COVID, God rest their souls. Um we lost a fair amount of the audience to you know, people moving away. And then, you know, when something shut down for what was it, two, three years, my God, you know, some people find other ways to entertain themselves. Like the need that theater filled in people, they fill in other ways. And so um, anyway, I believe in the theater. I believe in its um usefulness and its necessity. You know, I believe in the theater for the health of an American society. And so we're gonna fight the good fight. And and Kerry and Namdi and Alan Alda have partnered with us to fight that fight.

[26:55] Gordon Cox: Um, you also have done a lot of work in film and TV, none of which we can particularly talk about right now because you are on strike at the moment. Um, but I can't ask you about your uh you mentioned the albums you've released and uh your work as a recording artist. What tell me about how that sort of facet of your work and what the appeal of um you know just the the musician uh side of you?

[27:18] Leslie Odom Jr: Thank you for asking. We um it's just it's just been uh, you know, after Hamilton, it was kind of I had been doing a I'd only really been doing television before Hamilton, you know. Um that's what I'd been doing mostly. I I went out to LA and I was doing guest spots and recurrents, and you know, I was having a whole lot of fun doing that. Um and so Hamilton happens, and you know, something like that. It is it's a ticket, it's an opportunity uh to to make your dreams come true. And so I didn't want to continue to do the things that I was doing before Hamilton. It's like well, what can I do now that um nobody would have ever let me do before this? And music was the first thing that I could think of.

So um I've put out four albums, um, two the two very successful Christmas albums that um that's been a wonderful, a really meaningful and like wonderful delight that people have really welcomed these projects into their homes. Every single year, they make you a part of their celebration with their family. That's a really intimate and special thing. I have a new record coming out this fall. And this is as they all are, you know, this is the most the most personal album to date. He said, at some point, I don't want you to have any more secrets. Tell us who you are. Tell us what you're afraid of. Tell us what you're ashamed of. Tell us everything. And so, yeah, this record, it's been um a really uh after a year of some uh monumental personal growth and um just upheaval in my in my life.

That that that is waiting and coming for everybody. I'm not special, you know. You know, so it it happens to everybody, you know, where you where the where the ground gets really unsure beneath you, and you gotta face your demons, face your shadows. Uh that's what I did. And um I made it to the other side. Um and uh I I wrote some songs about it. So I'm I'm looking forward to this being out and and people hearing this music.

[30:15] Gordon Cox: Yeah. You also, as you alluded to you wrote a book in 2018. It's an autobiography called Failing Up how uh how to take risks, aim higher and never stop learning. And that was kind of about imparting some of the lessons you'd learned along the way, right?

[30:29] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah. Um what was the uh well first of all is continuing to write uh uh are you interested in uh doing more writing along those lines?

[30:39] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah I've started a a really wonderful friendship with with my publishers at Fyewell and Friends. They they came to me with the idea for that book. You know they they thought that I had a book in me and um had a wonderful experience writing that with them. So we're gonna the paperback edition of that book is gonna be out early next year. I'm gonna write a a preface a new preface for it and um kind of punch it up a little bit. We're finally after all these years getting a paperback edition which is I'm super excited about and we I did the children's book with them as well. Um so yeah I is there more writing in the future uh quite possibly you know if I will ask me to yeah quite possibly I'm I'm excited to write the preface you know to to um there there is actually you know another chapter that I think that I can.

[31:32] Gordon Cox: Yeah that that was the question I was gonna ask is actually if if if failing up was about imparting lessons and that came out in uh 2018, what is the biggest lesson you have learned since then?

[31:42] Leslie Odom Jr: This is what the whole album was about, too. I mean, the first thing you're gonna need when you really decide to become the artist you want to be, the person you want to be, the man you want to be, the father you want to be, really, the first thing you're gonna need is a loving heart. And that is easier said than done. You know, when they were the the Pharisees were uh kind of questioning Jesus, you know, trying to trip him up, uh, because they had all these laws, so many laws, rules for people to follow, and they asked him, what are the forgive me, I'm I'm not a biblical scholar. I re I revisited this not too long ago and I was struck by it. But they I think they ask him, what are the two most important laws?

You know, knowing that it's impossible to answer something like that, because there's so many laws. And so whatever he says is gonna be the wrong answer, and they know that. And he does answer them. The first one is, you know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul. And number two, he says, to the two things that are the most important thing. Number two is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Love thy neighbor as thyself. If we could just do those two things, but you know what? So many of us get tripped up on on that one. How simple is that? You know why? Because we're not loving ourselves well either. We are loving our neighbors as we love ourselves, and we treat ourselves like shit too.

And so this past year and a half has really been finally just finally and firstly learning how to love myself I don't stand a chance at loving you or Nicolette or these two beautiful babies or my castmates or these audiences you know I don't I don't stand a chance at loving them well if I don't take care of myself and and be good to myself and have grace with myself and forgive myself so I've been learning that and I've been writing about that doing better.

[34:07] Gordon Cox: Thank you. So I can't ask you about what's next for you on screen although I can say that you are in uh the new Exorcist movie that's coming out shortly um and that's called The Exorcist Believer uh but after Pearly Victorious is it gonna be another six or seven years before we see you on Broadway again?

[34:26] Leslie Odom Jr: I hope not. I do I do think um I do think that this piece is gonna change my life and I don't mean from the outside you know I'm not talking about any kind of not talking about any any kind of thing that that the world or the business could give me um this piece is going to change me from the inside it already is you know what is important to me what um yeah it's just it's shifting things it's shifting the atmosphere and uh I welcome that.

[35:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Well, we will look forward to seeing what comes next. Uh, and in the meantime, uh, there you are on stage at the music box uh in Pearly Victorious.

[35:10] Leslie Odom Jr: Yeah.

[35:14] Gordon Cox: That was Leslie Odom Jr. from Pearly Victorious, now playing on Broadway at the Music Box Theater. If you enjoyed this conversation here on Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, a great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Instagram and Twitter at Gordon B. Cox. Thanks for listening and see you at the theater.