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[0:05] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast, taking you behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and producers of the hottest shows on Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond.

[0:15] Gordon Cox: I'm your host, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, we're taking a look at the business of Broadway as I speak with Jeffrey Seller, the producer of hit shows like Hamilton and Rent, and Robert E. Wankel, the president of the Schubert organization, Broadway's biggest theater owner.

[0:30] Gordon Cox: In a conversation recorded live at Variety's standing room only, Power of Broadway breakfast last week. After that, I'll crunch the numbers with another one of our Power of Broadway panelists, Robert Fried of Witham Smith and Brown. But first, here's what Jeffrey and Bob had to say about new audiences, new theaters, and why now is a great time to get involved in Broadway.

[0:49] Gordon Cox: Hi, gentlemen. Thanks for being here.

[0:51] Jeffrey Seller: Good morning.

[0:51] Robert E. Wankel: Good morning.

[0:52] Jeffrey Seller: Brighton early morning.

[0:56] Jeffrey Seller: So why I feel like I need to like come back like a you know six-year-old.

[1:01] Jeffrey Seller: That's good to have Hamilton.

[1:03] Jeffrey Seller: You've gotten bigger shades.

[1:07] Jeffrey Seller: So we're gonna talk about some of the issues facing Broadway today. And also, I have to I have to interrupt.

[1:14] Robert E. Wankel: Yes.

[1:15] Jeffrey Seller: Please. So um given that this is a variety breakfast, I had to like go back in my mind and think a little bit about what variety meant to me. And what I remembered was that um when I was in the seventh grade and living um at nine mile and cool park, Michigan, we had a bookstore called the Little Professor Bookshop.

[1:35] Jeffrey Seller: And um, it had all the books you can imagine, and it hold had a whole rack of newspapers. And I used to go there every week and find the variety that was in the news rack and open it up and look at the grosses. And I would see what Annie was doing, and I would see what chorus line was doing, and and then it would tell you what what was the out-of-town tryout and when there were going to be auditions for things. And you know, in many ways, variety was my first entree into the business of Broadway.

[2:12] Robert E. Wankel: Excellent.

[2:13] Robert E. Wankel: Well, thank you. That's we're delighted to have you here.

[2:16] Jeffrey Seller: So anyway, thank you.

[2:17] Jeffrey Seller: Thanks for that question.

[2:18] Robert E. Wankel: Gordon wasn't born yet.

[2:20] Gordon Cox: Oh no, I was around. I was around.

[2:22] Gordon Cox: Um but speaking of grosses, actually, so grosses have been um on the rise for at least the last decade consistently, and so has attendance, right? At least generally on the rise for about the same time. How how does Broadway, how much can Broadway grow from here, and how does it do it?

[2:42] Jeffrey Seller: Well, I think we have during the past five years, we've been growing both attendance and grosses. Um fortunately, everybody thinks we're growing grosses by overcharging people, but that's not factual. We like to think we have a price point for everybody, and uh if you really look around, there are every show has tickets at good prices. I think that it's growing because we've had a lot of great shows on Broadway. And if you give the people a great show, they come. And when it really gets hot, like a Hamilton, they'll pay anything to get a seat. So um I think that's part of our own success that we have a diversity of product and people want to see it and they'll pay for it. But don't get caught up in it's too expensive because we've got plenty of inexpensive tickets.

[3:32] Robert E. Wankel: Is that part of the challenge is just letting people know that because the ones the prices that get that get all the headlines are you know the the high prices for the premium prices for the hottest shows and not the oh there's a you know 25 dollar uh ticket initiative at this show and this show and this show.

[3:48] Jeffrey Seller: That's a meteor problem, and maybe variety can help us get across the message. We have a price point for everybody. Um you know what you're reminding me of, Gordon, which is that um I'm now 53 years old, and I started working um you know for Barry and Fran and Susan and Alicia in 1987 when I was 22. And if you go all the way back to that era, it was back then that Broadway hit the $50 ticket price. And you could open any paper that writes about theater and say Broadway is going to raise ticket prices so high that it will lose its audience. And they said that in 1987, and then when um we ra we were when rent was in its heyday, we were the first show to hit 80. And it seemed crazy that a show that was about all these bohemians would use 80, but of course, as everyone knows, we were also the ones that made the first two rows 20 and made the entire rear balcony 35, and we needed to do 80 to help pay for 35.

And once again, they said we're going to out um price ourselves out of the market. This was now 22 years ago. And um, if you look back to 1987, 88, our attendance was about 8.5 million people. This last season, the attendance was 13.5 million people. So we've grown our audience over these years 50 percent. Um, we're not going to lose our audience because of ticket prices. We will continue to build our audience through good work.

[5:36] Gordon Cox: And let's talk a little bit about sort of growing the audience and how you do that. First of all, I want to start by asking each of you, how has the how has the Broadway audience changed and shifted over your own years in the theater industry?

[5:51] Robert E. Wankel: Well, Bob's been here longer.

[5:53] Jeffrey Seller: Thanks, Jeffrey.

[5:54] Robert E. Wankel: I have been here a couple of years longer than you.

[5:56] Robert E. Wankel: No, I think I think the big shift in audience is the fact that now 60% of our audience is tourist. It doesn't mean it's it's less New Yorkers and suburbanites, it just means our market's gotten much bigger and we're playing to a tourist audience. And that's a good thing because everybody comes into town and and the first thing they want to do is see a Broadway show. I think the audience has changed because of the diversity of the product. We have so many different shows, and we really have a show for everybody. The same way we have a price for everybody, we have a show for everybody. And collectively, that is adding to the audience growth. Along with many programs that we have.

[6:40] Jeffrey Seller: A trend in particular in terms of the audiences that you're seeing coming, Jeffrey.

[6:45] Jeffrey Seller: Um, um, in some measure, it started with rent in 1996. And um when Jonathan was writing Rent, and um he meant this as no disrespect to the big um mega hits at the time, which were the British invasion musicals. But Jonathan used to say, and he was a um a young man in his 30s who loved theater, who loved musicals, he said, those aren't my stories, those aren't my characters, that's not my music. Why would I go to Broadway? And that was his position. And and this was a man who grew up loving um West Side Story and loving Fiddler on the Roof. And in many ways, Rent for him was the antidote. He wanted to write a show that was for his group for young people, that used the vernacular of his generation, that was about issues that were important to him.

And I think that of the many gifts he gave to Broadway was that he gave us a show that enabled us to reach an audience that heretofore wasn't going to Broadway, and that was young people. It didn't yet open us up to a multicultural audience as much as we wanted, but then we saw other shows doing that, from in the heights to the color purple, um, to you know, Street Car Name Desire, the African American version, to um all the different shows um that have expanded the um African American audience. Although I have to say that had been going on since the 70s when we had all those great musicals from um from sophisticated ladies to whiz to uh you be to Raisin in the Sun. But then you know, the um Latino audience, and um and and now we see that um there have been shows that have been very good at attracting the Asian audience, and um and all of that helps to feed into 13.5 million attendees.

[8:54] Gordon Cox: Where do you feel like there's more work to be done in terms of audience segments or markets that we Broadway should be trying to reach?

[9:01] Jeffrey Seller: Well, I think our work is just to continue to expand those audiences, right? To make our audience look like our country. And no doubt one of my challenges at Hamilton will be to continue to ensure that our audience looks like our cast, which looks like our country. And of course, I am uh cognizant of the fact that because of price barriers, communication barriers, um, the Hamilton audience is probably still too white. And um one of the um probably uh most effective things that we've done since the day we started at Hamilton is create our education program. And through the Hamilton education program, we have 20,000 school children from the New York City and surrounding areas, all from Title I schools, who are seeing Hamilton every year for $10 each. So that's a start because those 20,000 kids are there, and they will be the ones who hopefully say, Maybe I'll go to another show.

[10:09] Gordon Cox: Where do you it's occasionally uh I've heard people in the industry say, Oh, I'm a little concerned about where the next generation of young producers is coming from? Is that a concern for either of you?

[10:19] Jeffrey Seller: And how do you think I hope they never come?

[10:23] Jeffrey Seller: I'm joking. Um where do they come from? And how do you sort of train and nurture and attract that kind of talent?

[10:32] Jeffrey Seller: I come from the passion of doing a Broadway show, and there's plenty of young producers, a number in this room. The fact that we don't have new producers, we don't have um creative people, it's just not factual. If you look at Come From Away or Dear Evan Hansen with very young creative teams, there's plenty of people, plenty of producers. The passion of producing for Broadway, the success of some of the big shows, create the appetite for people to come to Broadway. They're not all always successful. We still have a lot more losers than winners, but the appetite is there and the passion is there, and people will come and produce.

[11:10] Gordon Cox: Is that true of investor the investment pool as well as shows like, for instance, Hamilton show how we have a hell of a time collecting money for Hamilton? But has it gotten easier to raise money over the last five or ten years as Broadway's success has become more and more a part of kind of uh pop culture's awareness?

[11:29] Robert E. Wankel: I think that the success has certainly helped. It's about the show you're raising money for, about the people associated and your contacts. I mean, some shows are more difficult than others. If the show has a great word of mouth outside, everybody's lining up and they're writing the checks before they get there. And if they haven't, it's a lot tougher. But considering how many shows make their way to Broadway, and all with the exception of a couple, they always usually have their money before they get there, so we're doing pretty good. With a few exceptions.

[12:03] Gordon Cox: How useful would it be to have a few more Broadway theaters? Is that something you ever think about, Bob? Is that something you like? Is part of the value the scarcity of the real estate?

[12:13] Robert E. Wankel: Um, what how Bob, as someone with a unique perspective on this, yes. Um, if you're a producer, everybody's gonna say we need 10 or 15 more theaters because there's never been more product waiting to come into Broadway. I think if you really think about it, we have to be careful not to have too many theaters. Um, we have an audience, even as it's built, 250,000 people a week. And if we have 20 shows, they go to 20. If we have 40, they go to 40. And just for the record, the shows make their money in the 75 to 100% of attendance, so therefore you don't want to spread the wealth too thin. Um, at the same time, we have most of the theaters, most are 100 years old, and you know, they're not exactly the most comfortable for what consumers want today.

So, um, but we have tried to renovate them and maintain them. But I wouldn't go crazy building too many theaters. We've been trying to build a new theater now for 15 years. We sort of said it was over, but you never know it could come back.

[13:22] Jeffrey Seller: Uh, have you wanted uh an extra Broadway theater or two?

[13:25] Robert E. Wankel: Only that I own.

[13:27] Jeffrey Seller: Yeah. Well, the prices have gone up for the theaters. The UK has set a new benchmark on theaters. Um, and so Jeffrey, for you, as you um that you've got uh one of many very successful shows under your belt, what what is the thing that um how do you decide that the next show that this is your next show? What's the thing that um makes you uh you know, go for it?

[13:57] Jeffrey Seller: Um, what makes me choose to do the next show is the same thing that has always driven me, which is um uh that feeling in my guts that says I love this, that says this is surprising me, that says, I want to see this story um realized. And um I don't know when it's going to come. And uh if you had spoken to me um six months ago and said, What's your next show? Um, you know, notwithstanding, of course, the share show, which starts previews one month from today, I would have said, I don't know, because I didn't. And um I so I I just I keep my eyes open, I keep my ears open, and then something happens. And um, fortunately, in the last six months, uh at least three things have happened. So now I've got my little uh stove going.

You know, I always like to think I have four burners, and I've got to get um four saucepans going at different rates so that hopefully they all align in the right years. And um, and I think I'm getting ready to put uh three little saucepans up right now with three things that I'm um passionate about. And uh and and that's like you know, walking into a bar and meeting the woman of your dreams or the man of your dreams. You don't know until it happens.

[15:25] Gordon Cox: How's Broadway doing in terms of diversity? Not only on stage, but particularly off stage. I know a lot of people sometimes uh think about kind of particularly diversity um backstage in Broadway and in the theater industry. And how do how do we continue to diversify the folks who work in theater?

[15:42] Robert E. Wankel: Well, diversity backstage is a little tougher than diversity on stage.

[15:47] Jeffrey Seller: I mean, why? Why?

[15:48] Robert E. Wankel: Because once you're in the theater, you never leave it, and people die for in their seats. So so everybody works till 80 or 90s, so we have very few openings becoming available, even backstage, whether it's stage.

[16:02] Gordon Cox: Are you talking about diversity? When you say backstage, do you mean the artists, the directors, the music? Or do you mean the stage hands? Because I think Bob's talking about the stage.

[16:10] Jeffrey Seller: Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. I think we should open up the question a little bit wider.

[16:14] Robert E. Wankel: Oh no, no, I was just gonna answer the business.

[16:16] Gordon Cox: Oh, great.

[16:17] Robert E. Wankel: And you were gonna do the creative side.

[16:19] Gordon Cox: Perfect.

[16:20] Jeffrey Seller: Diversity on the stage has come a long way. Prop men are all white.

[16:28] Robert E. Wankel: No.

[16:30] Jeffrey Seller: Box offices may be all white too.

[16:33] Robert E. Wankel: So you change the bigger.

[16:35] Jeffrey Seller: So that's your responsibility.

[16:36] Robert E. Wankel: We're working on it. It's challenging. No one leaves. And I'm serious, it's no one leaves.

[16:43] Jeffrey Seller: Go ahead with the diversity.

[16:46] Robert E. Wankel: You know, I think that one, we are making progress with diversity. And um, and the question we have to ask ourselves is the same question I ask when we're working on the show. Can we do better? And um when I look across all of the shows that I've seen over the last three years, I think we've seen tremendous progress in colorblind casting, um, and in seeing more people of color who are um on stage performing shows, writing shows, and making shows. And that goes in the producing category as well as the writing category. And um the best news is that what we're finding is it's a wild success. And as it continues to be a wild success, it will lead to more and more diversity. Um I think it's incumbent upon all of us to look inside ourselves and say, am I doing enough to not be the problem, but to be the solution.

And to be humble enough to say, I don't have all the answers. And going to staff and etc. in the business. We do have a lot of programs going on. We have programs at the league trying to bring in more diversity and training and attracting people to the business. It's been a slower process than any of us would like, but there's a serious movement to bring more diversity to the theater. On stage, they're doing a they're doing a much better job. It's easier. Every time you cast a new show, you can have a whole new cast.

[18:36] Jeffrey Seller: Over the last year, the Me Too and the Times Up movements have uh had seismic changes across the overall uh entertainment industry. Um, how do you see that taking hold in the Broadway industry and in the theater industry?

[18:49] Robert E. Wankel: Well, I think we like everybody else, after all of the attention it got about a year ago. I mean, we're focused on training and making people much more conscious of what's going on in the business. Everybody's getting training. We have some special committees. The sensitivity, I think if you just look around, everybody has become extremely sensitive to the Me Too movement. They're very careful what they say and what they do. It may be too long in coming, but it's here, and I think it'll be nothing but positive for us and every other industry. And everybody is getting training just to make sure they're aware of what's going on in the world.

[19:32] Gordon Cox: Um, we're about to run out of time, but let me um close with one final question, which is if each of you could give a word of advice to someone wanting to get into the theater industry right now or expand their role in the theater industry right now, what would you tell them?

[19:47] Robert E. Wankel: There's never been a better time, maybe more challenging, and you may have to work harder to get a show or to get something going, but it's on a roll, and you want to enjoy that roll.

[20:00] Jeffrey Seller: Uh, I'm gonna work deductively on this, which is that um if you look at the recording industry, uh, they've lost 60% of their revenue over the last 18 years. They were making 60 percent more in revenue in 2000 than the recording industry is today. Um, if you look at the um television industry, there are many positive signals with the advent of streaming and Netflix and Amazon, but you also see that the ratings for all the primary networks continue to go down every year, and there's a bit of a crisis of where that audience is going because many of them are going to digital platforms like video games. Young boys are not watching TV, they're just playing video games. Um, the movie business is dealing with streaming.

Um, the digital revolution has changed all those other entertainment forms in ways that have made their businesses far more challenging. And here's what I think. I think that this digital revolution has made what we do even more integral to our lives. And um here's what the digital revolution did. It had a hundred and fifty million to 200 million streams for um Be More Chill, and that show's now a hit and it's going to Broadway. And um what the Digital Revolution did for Hamilton is it saw an album come out um three months after we opened. Um we've had now two billion streams, and that was the way in which Hamilton was able to seep into the American culture in such a profoundly positive way, faster than any show heretofore had.

So what we have an opportunity to do is use those resources of the digital revolution to make coming to a live event um more attractive and easier. And as we continue to develop as a species, we are going to continue to want to get together and go to theater events as we always did, and that for us is going to make a vital business that offers enormous opportunity for everybody in this room to express themselves and continue to try to make a living while affecting um mankind.

[22:24] Gordon Cox: Thanks. Well said. That was Hamilton producer Jeffrey Seller and Schubert organization president Robert E. Wankel at Variety's Power of Broadway Breakfast. Next up is Robert Freed, also a panelist at the Power of Broadway event and a partner at Witham Smith and Brown, the finance and accounting firm that works with clients across the Broadway industry. Robert's here to give us a look at the ins, the outs, and the oddities of the Broadway books. Hi, Robert. Thanks for being here.

[22:53] Robert E. Wankel: Hi, Gordon. Thanks for having me.

[22:55] Gordon Cox: Well, first off, tell us a little bit about what you do and how you work with people in all facets of the theater industry.

[23:00] Robert E. Wankel: Well, I've been lucky enough to work in the theater industry for the past 25 or 27 years, and I work in advising producers and theatrical production companies on how to structure their businesses, how to actually do business not only here domestically but abroad and across the country. I work in looking at the financial deals that theater has, both with their creative teams and with other people who are participating in it.

[23:27] Gordon Cox: And what when someone is new to Broadway and to producing or investing or any of the sort of roles that your clients get involved in, what is the thing that surprises them most about the way this business works? Because it's a unique business.

[23:40] Robert E. Wankel: It's very unique. And I think, you know, investors, that's what I say to producers often. I say my job is to make sure I protect you with your investors and to make sure that they get the information they need and that they understand. I think a lot of the investors that come in and invest in theater are not only are not doing it necessarily with a business motive in mind, but there's some emotional attachment to why they're investing. I sort of feel like you have to have an emotional attachment. Otherwise, how can you justify the giant risk of the case? I think that's exactly the show, right? You know, if you're gonna lose it, if unfortunately the statistics show that so many of the shows actually lose money, you have to be doing it for different reasons.

[24:18] Robert E. Wankel: I think what's been interesting lately is that the people coming in are more business-oriented and are used to different business terms, and so they're looking at these as a business investment, not understanding necessarily that shows open and close so quickly. I mean, where else can you actually lose 15, 20, 30 million dollars within a month?

[24:38] Gordon Cox: True.

[24:40] Robert E. Wankel: With nothing left to show for it, you know, other than an opening night playbill and maybe a cast album.

[24:45] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[24:46] Robert E. Wankel: Right. So that's definitely a changing world. And as the investor base grows and as more people hear about the successes of some of the shows, it's a lot of people. Is that what's spurring the investor base growth? Is the success of something like Hamilton or Wicked or whatever?

[25:00] Robert E. Wankel: I think it has. I think it's done it both for individual investors and business investors, as well as the movie studios. I think, you know, seeing Disney's success, seeing Universal's success, it becomes not only the success of the show and the financial rewards of it, but a bit of the branding part that they look at too.

[25:18] Gordon Cox: Right. At the Power of Broadway breakfast, Bob and Jeffrey talked a lot about, we talked very specifically about Broadway, you know, the little whatever 15 block area in Midtown Manhattan. But the road and in front of the international markets make up a sort of huge part of the Broadway business model, or particularly for those big shows that become sort of kind of global brands. Can you talk a little bit about how that fits together?

[25:42] Robert E. Wankel: Sure. I think you know that the road and international has really changed a lot of the model and what's going on. Once a show is successful here, whether it's moderately successful or wildly successful, the ability to then take the show and tour it around the US or to take it internationally has really grown in the past few years.

[26:05] Gordon Cox: How often, let me just briefly interrupt you, how often does, because one of the things that producers can say to themselves if the show doesn't quite recoup its capitalization on Broadway is that they can make their money back on the road or internationally. How often does that actually happen?

[26:20] Robert E. Wankel: That's a great, yeah, how many times have I heard we'll make it back on the road? Right. Which you know, and you've heard too, and many times. And I think at the end of the day it's difficult to make back the New York capitalization perhaps on the road, but what's more often the case is that the tour capitalization is returned and there's a profit that's earned in the tour. And some of that profit goes back to the New York company, to the original company, but they're all structured as different businesses.

[26:52] Gordon Cox: Is that how you consider them, road production and the entities?

[26:52] Robert E. Wankel: Right. So they'll recapitalize the show. So the show that was on Broadway has the rights to actually do the road, at least in the US, certainly. And theoretically, it costs a lot more to capitalize, I have to assume. Is that true?

[27:07] Robert E. Wankel: The Broadway show is a lot more to capitalize. The road shows are actually fairly reasonable to capitalize. And they go out on the road and it's a different structure in terms of the economics because you're being presented, they're being presented in an area they get sometimes a guarantee from plus a percenter.

[27:23] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[27:23] Robert E. Wankel: So the road tends to really do much better actually than a Broadway show. So a Broadway show that was not financially successful, meaning it just didn't return its money here on Broadway, can often go out and return its money on the road and a profit as well.

[27:39] Gordon Cox: Right.

[27:39] Robert E. Wankel: And some of that comes back. Internationally is a bit more of a challenge. You know, where does it go? It has to be culturally acceptable in another country and you have to look at it and decide sometimes, you know, you wonder if some of the other countries, there are definitely cultural differences that perhaps would stop a show from going. It's less expensive to do a show in the UK at this point on the West End than it is to do in the US, dealing with labor and different issues. They have a great theater tax credit that comes back, which really helps.

[28:12] Gordon Cox: Yeah, that's fairly new, yeah.

[28:13] Robert E. Wankel: It's the last few years. Yeah, that came out in September of 2015.

[28:17] Gordon Cox: Right.

[28:18] Robert E. Wankel: And it's like the film and we'll talk a bit, yeah, we'll talk a little bit about that in a second. But yeah, so it's similar to that and it actually is a pretty sizable return that the government actually subsidizes for it. And then it came around because they stopped subsidizing not-for-profit theater a lot and this was their give back to it. It also happened to have helped the commercial theater industry and it's been a big boon for it. But shows from here are able to go over to the UK and producers here can now produce them there. They don't need as much support and some of the, you can be very successful producing in the UK. The numbers aren't as good because there's just not the same gross box office potential.

[28:59] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[29:00] Robert E. Wankel: But that's because ticket prices are lower.

[29:00] Gordon Cox: Right, ticket prices are lower.

[29:06] Robert E. Wankel: Yeah. And what about streaming and cinemacast? How do they, are those starting to become significant streams of revenue or are they more about branding and growing awareness?

[29:15] Robert E. Wankel: I, well that's an interesting question, Gordon, and I think it's a bit of each. You know, there's no reason that you, as we know, many shows or most shows will do a cast album of a musical and so if you're doing a cast album and you're putting a cast album out there, why wouldn't you actually record the show and do some kind of cinematography release of the show or of it? And it's almost the same as a cast album. The costs may be a little bit more, but they're getting closer and closer. And then at least it's another form of distribution for the show. And it's not only for that show and for what might financially be viable in terms of what they return, but it's great exposure again for theater itself.

And it's just putting it out into places where people may not be able to go see a live performance. And they get kind of where the Met does it or where the NT Live, National Theater Live does it. People get a different experience. They get to experience a part of theater, and theater is telling a story. I mean, it's kind of a brilliant thing. You're not sitting live in the audience with actors on stage, but you're sitting in an audience with other people, and you're sharing that experience. So I think, you know, financially, there is some catching on with it, especially if we're going to bring the costs down, but it's just a great distribution of the form at the end of the day.

[30:30] Gordon Cox: You mentioned very briefly the tax incentive that I always think of as helping to really help the New York City economy resurge after 9/11. Like one of the driving forces of that was the fact that there was this great tax incentive for film and TV producers to produce their shows and films here. And there's something similar that exists for theater producers, but that came much later, one might say. Tell me about that and the fact that part of your job you were just telling me was the fact that yesterday you were down in Washington arguing about tax benefits for performing artists.

[31:08] Robert E. Wankel: It's been a great sort of road, and the Broadway League has taken the lead in that. And the Broadway League is kind of the trade association of theater producers and presenters. Lots of great, you know, members, all of the different members from across the country, not only here in New York, but across the country. And that credit, interestingly, is not available to any show that plans on coming to New York City. So there is a credit that exists for theater, but you need to open your show in one of seven specific theaters in upstate New York in Schenectady and Rochester.

[31:39] Gordon Cox: Because it's a state tax incentive.

[31:41] Robert E. Wankel: Yeah, it is, and they are not looking to incentivize shows that are going to open on Broadway. They feel they don't need that incentive, which I think is wrong personally.

[31:50] Gordon Cox: What is the one piece of advice you give people just starting to get into Broadway?

[31:54] Robert E. Wankel: Well, certainly from a financial perspective, I think it's coming with the expectation that it can work out or not work out for you, and more likely won't work out, at least financially to begin with. The best part is the people are all so passionate about what they're doing, and that's what they bring to it, and that goes even to the investor, who I think is somewhat passionate. But people really who are coming into the industry and starting to work in it, that's the best part. That's the best part for me is to see that passion that comes at it. And I think everyone comes at it and the expectation should be that, you know, it's gonna fail at first. If you succeed, that's brilliant. And you know, get back up and keep on doing it.

And I think that's really what the people who stick at this industry have done. The people who have been most successful in this industry are people who started at the bottom. It is really the mailroom syndrome. You need to start answering the phones for someone, or you need to start in a company management or general management or a booking, or in a smaller investment in a show if you're an investor or if you're an investor in a show, absolutely a smaller investor. The thing you do is you need to learn. The sort of the issue, one of the things that maybe I wish were a bit different, were really the ability to learn producing or to be able to be taught producing. And I'm sure there are many producers out there who would say you can't teach it. But it's a business like any other business, it's just a different business.

[33:18] Robert E. Wankel: Yeah, and so there are certain models you can teach, and the only way a young producer can do it is by watching someone and learning, you know, how they react to bad press, good press, different pricing, ticketing. It's learning by experience or failure.

[33:37] Gordon Cox: And that's about all we have time for. Thanks, Robert. Thanks for being here.

[33:39] Robert E. Wankel: Of course, it's great to talk to you.

[33:42] Gordon Cox: Thank you.

[33:49] Gordon Cox: That was Robert Freed of Withem Smith and Brown with a behind-the-scenes look at the Broadway numbers. If you like what you've heard on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, don't forget to rate and review us on iTunes and subscribe wherever finer podcasts are dispensed. On the next episode of Stagecraft, I talk to Asif Monthi, the actor and former Daily Show correspondent about his solo stage show, Sakina's Restaurant. Until then, see you at the theater.