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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders keeping theater alive during the pandemic.

[0:09] Gordon Cox: I'm your host, Gordon Cox.

[0:12] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Nataki Garrett, who took over as the artistic director of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in 2019, only to see her inaugural season there disrupted by both the pandemic and the wildfires that ravaged the Southern Oregon area. She, along with a number of other theater leaders and theater artists, has also become a vocal advocate for a new federal theater project that can help sustain the arts and arts workers through this difficult time. Now, as we approach the one-year mark of the theater industry's shutdown, Garrett is in the virtual studio with me to give us her argument in favor of a new deal for theater, as we all look forward to getting artists back in theaters and audiences back in seats. Hi Nataki, thanks for joining me.

[0:54] Nataki Garrett: Hi, Gordon. Thanks for having me.

[0:56] Gordon Cox: Before we get into some of the details of your advocacy work for federal support of theater workers, I wonder if first we could talk a little bit about the organization you run, because for people who maybe don't know a whole lot about it, it's pretty unique in terms of what theater companies are around the country. It's pretty much its own unique thing. Tell us about it.

[1:17] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, so Oregon Shakespeare Festival is an 85-year-old festival that historically has focused on the works of William Shakespeare in rotating repertory for about, you know, eight months out of the year. And so we have a calendar year season. We usually open in March and we close in October. And when you come, you can see something like, you know, eight shows over the course of a weekend. If you, or over the course of a week, you might be able to see 10 shows. At least that's what it was like before the pandemic.

[1:49] Gordon Cox: Right. How many stages are there?

[1:51] Nataki Garrett: There are at least four stages. There are three paid stages and then one free stage called the Green Show stage. The most of course famous stage is the Elizabethan, which is the only one of its kind in the United States.

[1:55] Gordon Cox: Right, sorry, go ahead. You were saying that people can see their, and so that's the season runs from, as you said, eight months, right?

[1:55] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, eight months out of the year, usually March to October. And so on top of the Shakespeare though, we also produce musicals. We have for the last eight years done, through commissioning, a whole lot of new plays. So Paula Vogel's "Indecent," Lynn Nottage's "Sweat," we did "All the Way," which became a movie. So we actually do have a wide offering of different kinds of plays here at OSF.

[2:56] Gordon Cox: Yeah, and what was going on back in March of 2020 when the pandemic hit and what were the activities that all had to go on pause at that point?

[2:56] Nataki Garrett: So our season starts, like I said, in March. Last year it started on March 6th. Everything was closed by, of course, by that following Wednesday. So we opened five shows over the course of a week, and it was actually my very first time experiencing this at OSF. But there's a big kind of opening festival where you have dinners and people come, and it's people want to be here for the opening weekend, and we do these champagne toast celebrations at the end of each show. So we had five shows open at the same time, and then they all sort of shut down over the course of the next week when we realized that we were not going to be able to remain open. There was a call from the governor that said that we had to shut down because of the amount of people that move through our spaces.

So five shows, and there's a company of actors that work for that entire eight-month run in many cases, right? Because they appear in multiple shows, and crew members and stuff work on multiple shows. It seems to me that working at OSF is a really interesting version of working at theater because it makes it clear that it can be kind of a long-term stable career for artists, not just in New York or Chicago or wherever, but anywhere, anywhere that some, you know, a place like Ashland where you can work at organizations like yours and make a real career out of that. Is that right?

[3:38] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, that's true. You know, it kind of runs like Broadway. You have 10 months of work and then you're off for two. And we do have a number of returning actors that are part of our acting company every single year. We do also audition every single year and bring in new actors into that acting company. But it is a really good gig, a really steady gig, and historically the actors have moved here, made their families here, put their kids through college through OSF.

[5:15] Gordon Cox: It's a pretty stable gig. Yeah, and you took over the theater in 2019, and then of course 2020 happened. And where you are, life was not only upended by the pandemic and then the movement for social justice, but then there were also these wildfires that were kind of ravaging your area. So tell us about some of the ways that you found to sustain not just the organization, but also the community that the organization's in.

[5:40] Nataki Garrett: So a couple of things on that. You know, the fires were devastating. 2,400 dwellings were burned to the ground. Some will never be able to be rebuilt because they discovered the land that it was on was, you actually can't rebuild there. The other thing is I think really important is that Ashland is really expensive. It's a resort town or a destination town. And so the neighborhoods that are actually affordable that are nearby were the ones that were ravaged in this fire, and a few of our company members lost their houses, their homes as well. We mobilized very quickly around that fire. You know, that Labor Day weekend would have been our fall opening if we were allowed to open, and we weren't. So we were lucky actually.

And the next day that fire started, which was I think about a week to the day that my new executive director and his family had just moved to Ashland. So, you know, of course they were really afraid because at some point the fire was a mile from our homes. But you know, when the fire shifted and it started moving north of us, our teams at OSF quickly mobilized to figure out how they could support the city by providing shelter. We had a food drive that happened right away. People automatically responded in this town by bringing food to OSF. And by the afternoon we had tables full of resources for people if they couldn't get back to their houses because of the fires. And that actually went on for about six weeks after, you know, we were able to really see what the real devastation of this area was.

And then we still have people in our company housing that are fire victims. The beauty of it was I had just moved here. I feel like I keep feeling like I just moved here, but I really hadn't. I moved to OSF, I didn't really move to Ashland because that's the immensity of the job is that you don't actually get to visit in the town that you're in. But I learned how integral we are to each other and how supportive this ecology is. You know, people showed up from Northern California all the way up to, you know, the mountains to the north of us, and they came down with truckloads of things to make sure that people in this area had the resources that they need. And so that was actually really heartening for me, especially, you know, we were at that point of the pandemic.

This was in the middle of the social uprising that was happening in other cities. And, you know, I'm walking into a Target and there are people without masks, and so I was starting to feel a little worried about this community. And then that fire, you know, unfortunately that fire hit, but what it taught me is, you know, the beauty of this community and how willing they were to support one another.

[9:01] Gordon Cox: And right now, what's your understanding of the kind of federal support that your theater will receive? How do you anticipate the work that the government is doing right now, like on the level that it's working right now to support what you were doing? And in what ways does it fall short of some of the things you need as a theater?

[9:24] Nataki Garrett: So I have to say that the formerly known as the Save Our Stages, the SVOG, which trunched about 15 billion dollars towards arts organizations and other organizations, is unprecedented. It's the largest granting cycle of that kind to come from the federal government directly to the arts. And so I just want to name that because it's important. You know, we fought for access to any kind of resources because we knew, as a coalition of nonprofit theaters, a kind of loose coalition, that the only way for us to come back would be through that kind of funding. I think because it's unprecedented and because we are in a time that is only the only time that's reflective in my understanding of history is the Great Depression, and so there has to be a federal response to bring back, you know, the arts.

It's 4.6% GDP, you know, that we're talking about millions of jobs, millions of lives, millions of careers, millions of dollars in resources. We're talking about all of the other lobbies that rely so heavily on the arts, like the restaurants that are located adjacent to museums and theaters. We're talking about that sort of, again, how interdependent the whole ecology is. It was important for us, important enough in the state of Oregon that, you know, the groundwork for this for OSF was working with a group of multimillion-dollar funded organizations who are all endowed to try to fight for access to CARES Act funding in the state of Oregon because there's no artistic tranche of money. And usually what happens in the state is, you know, if they're actually able to pull together some money for the arts, it's quickly co-opted by some of the other needs in the state.

And so we fought for, you know, we got 8.8 million dollars, which is also unprecedented. OSF itself received 4.7 million of that. It's important to note that OSF contributes about 120 million dollars a year in revenue to this area. When we laid off 500 people in April of 2020, if you can imagine the ripple effects of laying off 500 people in a rural area like the Rogue Valley, that 5,000 people's lives are affected initially, and then 20,000 people's lives are affected over time because of all of the systems that are in place to support an organization of our size.

[12:23] Nataki Garrett: Um, and so bringing us back was really important uh to the governor of Oregon, Kate Brown. And so I use that same template to pull together that coalition of professional nonprofit theaters. The prime minister was allocating a certain amount of money towards the arts organizations. And in the article, it was like if Oscar Eustace, Maria Goyanis, Joe Hajj, Lynn Mel, Manuel Miranda, Audrey McDonald all went up to Capitol Hill, they would be able to pull together legislation to be able to have access to resources. And so I called Maria Goyanas the next day and said, when do you want to get started? Let's go. Yeah. We should say for people who don't know, Maria is the artistic director of Woolley Mammoth in uh in DC and was at the public before that.

Yeah. And so what kind of cues do you take from you mentioned, you know, the depression in the Federal Theater Project? What sort of cues do you take from that in terms of what you envision uh that kind of support could look like and these new programs might look like? Well, I think it's going to be uh pretty much the same. You know, the legislation did not uh in the New Deal and um the Federal Theater Project in particular uh was was to actually fund hiring people to create spaces for artistic endeavor. Um, and so um part of that money was, you know, was to high was literally to make sure that the buildings were built. And then some of that money was to was to hire the artist in to to go inside of the buildings and the administrators to make those work.

And it was the sort of next leg of um of the regional theater movement. And then of course that was then re uh re-inspired much later in the 60s when the Ford Foundation decided to promote this idea of regional theaters. So I actually think something similar. I I do know that you know theaters uh historically are not green spaces. You know, it takes a lot of materials. OSF is not a green space, not per se. We do have solar panels on our roof, but but we're not green. Um you have to get into a car or plane to get here, you know, so we're not green in that way. Um and then and then we use a lot of of material resources to create the work that we do. So I'm hoping to be able to have access to be able to build a greener building, you know, where we do know that at some point OSF is going to have to have because the Elizabethan theater is outdoors.

Um it's a 1200 seat um uh Elizabethan style tutor style, really, um theater. Um and uh and with the smoke the prevailing year over year getting bigger, smoke season. We have a season now that we call smoke season. Um uh we are going to have to um build a similar kind of building, but but but uh but with but with a roof over it that maybe retracts or something. And hopefully we'll be able to do that with some of the infrastructure money. Um that's what we're we're fighting for of that.

[15:37] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Nataki right after the break.

[15:47] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with the artistic director of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, Nataki Garrett. And how responsive so far has Washington been in your experience? What has been some of the activity?

[15:58] Nataki Garrett: Oh, yeah, tell us more. Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but yeah, it's been extremely. So the the march towards getting access to the um the SOS was relevant for a lot of our theaters. Um because OSF is a place where every single it's bipartisan. Every single uh person in the federal legislature and also in the state legislature at some point has come through here in high school, or you know, or their family brought them down here over and over. They have a connection to this place, they they have a have fond memories of of OSF. So we were actually able to be in touch with our um our local and state uh legislators and and our um uh federal legislators and and really and really hear from them how important this is, you know, in the middle of the the fight towards the SVOG and finalizing that um that package, that care package.

Um uh, you know, we we were hearing directly from um from from all all of the Congress offices um about how they were fighting for it and what they were doing. And then of course when we were when we um when we got the resource or when when it was secured through SVOG, um we thanked everybody for all of the support. So I actually think that for for our theater, we're we're we're a little bit different than some of the other theaters across the United States because we're integral to the economy um in this valley. And so it it's and and also we're sort of embedded in people's memories. We're an 85-year-old institution. So um, you know, some of those people remember coming when they were six. Um, and so it was really important for them to secure um resources for that memory.

As the fight continues to make sure that we have access to those resources, and of course, we're in that phase where everybody's trying to figure out how they're going to have access to this this large tranche of of resource. Um it's incumbent upon on theaters across the United States to make sure that you're in touch with your um with your uh your folks in the legislature to to make sure that they understand um uh that you can't actually continue to pursue possibilities in the future without access to some of this resource. So it it taught us as an ecology that we that we could all work together and make something happen. Um the last thing I'll say about it is um I was in a conversation the other day, and a really prominent artist, um uh Jeremy O'Harris was saying he's a he's a um uh uh a playwright, but also he's writing for you know television and you know and the like.

And um he was it was really important for him to to acknowledge how how necessary it is that we pay attention to um what we're going to lose if we do not uh bring back the artist. Um the artists are actually the next the next focus of of any work that we're doing. Um and and that's part of why I wanted to make sure we secured some resource because you know, if I if we're not open, we can't pay anybody. Um but one of the things that he was saying that I thought was really important, and and I'm I'm bringing it into the way I'm I'm rebuilding OSF is um uh that we have a generation that's you know, sort of in between that you know would have graduated from grad school or from whatever kind of training program that they were in, and now they're sort of in the wind, and we stand to lose those, you know, artistic minds um who will who will uh be our future. And so we do have to figure out a way to uh sustain the artists at at least through these the closure until we can get back to the business of making art.

[19:47] Gordon Cox: What can people who are fans of theater and you know are eager to get back into seats to uh see some theater, what can they do to help support the the movement?

[19:57] Nataki Garrett: I think the most important thing is when a theater endeavors to even present the possibility of a season, applaud that. Um that um you it's everybody is um is uh we what did I say the other day? I we're pragmatic um and optimistic at the same time. You know, uh we we just we just announced a season, you know, and that's an endeavor that's unto itself immense because who knows if we're gonna be able to open it, you know, who who really knows. Um uh and and then if you know our theater decided to do a um uh the first time for the very first time we're doing a digital and a live season, um, because there are things that we know we can do in the digital sphere, at least while our uh venues are still closed, that we that we don't know if we're gonna, you know, if we're gonna have access to in the live sphere.

Um, and so we're moving towards the possibility of of balancing both for the for the short term and also for the long term. So if you want to support the theater, um if your theater um has the resources, excuse me, and the bandwidth to be able to put out the possibility of the season, um uh proliferate that they're doing that, support them. And if they're in the process of trying to figure out what that might be, know that um you have people in in rooms all over uh a city because they can't gather together in spaces to create those seasons. You have people in rooms all over a city trying to figure out what is the best formula to come back to bring this this art to you. And if you are inclined to support them in that process, then you know take out your checkbook and write them a check.

If you are inclined to support the artists that are that are near you that you know are struggling to create um work and they don't have access to resource then then do whatever you can to make sure that they do have access to resource. And and and if you if you feel inclined call your your um your folks in on Capitol Hill and tell them how important the arts are you know if you're watching television tonight or a movie or you know watching Hamilton on on on Disney Plus you know you that's the arts you know and so you you do so so put your um action where your your heart is.

[22:24] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And you led me into what was going to be my next question which was to uh ask you to tell us a little bit about the season that you announced just recently that as you mentioned is kind of this balance between the kind of practical considerations of you know social distance theater and the hope that at some point later this calendar year we can all find some way to be at a live event safely so um uh I'm just gonna pull out my little note, my little notes here so that I have it.

[23:00] Nataki Garrett: So we have uh three live offerings. One is um August Wilson's How I Learned What I Learned. Um and that's going to be directed by Tim Bond. Now, this is a one-person show that was written by August Wilson shortly before um he passed on. Um, and uh we are lucky to have it because he he only had a couple of a chosen select group of people who he gave permission um to do this work. Uh and so uh we have the Bay Area's Stephen Anthony Jones performing that amazing piece. Um and then uh we have a play called Unseen by Mona Mansoor, which is uh going to be directed by our own um Evren Ochikan, who is our associate artistic director. Um I basically I asked Everon what play he wanted to do um when we came back, as opposed to the associate artistic director is always sort of given the play, you know, do this play in a season.

Um and I just asked him like where is his heart, and he said he wanted to do this particular play that he had um been a part of the development of with Mona, and uh, you know, he's a long um uh collaborative relationship with Mona Mansoor.

[24:10] Nataki Garrett: So um it's it's a it's a beautiful piece about you know um uh post-uh traumatic experiences that are similar to wartime or insurrection, um, and and how you come back from those. And um uh and then uh I'm directing uh Dominique Morisseau's uh Confederates. Um it's an American Revolutions play. It's part of that commissioning um series, and it's a world premiere, and it's it's actually this beautiful piece that's that looks at black women in 1865 and in present day and sort of reflects on both. And uh and then the last play of our live season is called It's Christmas Carol. Um and that's by some of our um our longtime favorite actors and writers, Mark Bradard, Britt Hinckley, and John Tubbs. It's a comedy or a parody or an inversion of that age-old classic. And it'll have every holiday uh at the end of the year from Diwali all the way through Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and probably a few in between. Um and then digitally, um I'm sorry.

[25:20] Gordon Cox: No, I was just gonna ask what the timeline for those live performances are.

[25:25] Nataki Garrett: I don't know.

[25:25] Gordon Cox: You don't know yet.

[25:26] Nataki Garrett: That's what I thought. I just wanted to clarify.

[25:28] Gordon Cox: Yeah, we're really indoors theoretically when that is safe to happen.

[25:32] Nataki Garrett: Yes, exactly. That is exactly right. Um, and we are we're releasing without dates because we think it's we think we're gonna be go uh ready to go in the fall. Uh we're gonna prepare as if we're gonna go in the fall. We just don't know, you know.

[25:45] Gordon Cox: Right.

[25:45] Nataki Garrett: Um, and it might mean that we only open one or two or three of them uh as opposed to all four. Um and then our digital season, though, um, is is going to start sometime um I think next month, I don't remember now. Uh, but we're uh we're gonna be showing uh some of our our uh Oregon Shakespeare Festival favorites or audience favorites. Um Mannahata by Mary Catherine Nagel, uh Julius Caesar, which was uh it's Shakespeare's play, but it's directed by Shanna Cooper, and then Snow and Midsummer by Francis Yachew Cowhig. Um and these are these are uh the first offerings of a series of offerings that'll be our shows on O. Um and then we have a couple of like you know fun pieces that we're uh we're trying to figure out you know all the things that O is capable of doing.

[26:34] Gordon Cox: And so we've created O is sorry, we should clarify, O is the uh digital platform that uh you guys have created for this, yeah.

[26:42] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, that we that we created uh that actually we started last year, but we were gonna launch it this year. Um and and the pandemic sort of upended it, and it it became important to you know to to open to start with that to bridge um our audiences to keep them connected to what we were doing. Um so we have a project called the Cymbeline Project, which I conceived but is uh created by uh and directed by Scarlett Kim. It's a serialized um episodic um cliffhangered uh Cymbeline. Um that'll that'll it'll have any yeah, it's yeah. Well, and how else do you do Cymbeline, right? Yeah, uh it'll be uh anywhere between five to eight episodes, and that'll be filmed uh in in um Ashland and Los Angeles and a couple of other cities. And then uh I don't know if you know this, but we produced a film last year.

[27:35] Gordon Cox: Um I I knew a little bit about that, but tell us tell us more.

[27:39] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, so um Sharifa Ali came to direct the play Copper Children by uh Karen Zacharias, and uh ended up creating a film called Ashland because of course everything shut down and Copper Children shut down. Uh and I gave her a residency. Um Ashland is a little play that's about you know, regenerating yourself and and refining yourself. I'm sorry, a little film about regenerating and finding refining yourself, and it was presented by OSF, produced by Alalea Productions. It will have Oscar consideration because it was um brought into the Pan African Film Festival, which I think is going on this month. And it also made the city Ashland one of the best places to live and make a film, according to Movie Maker magazine. Sharifa Ali is returning to Ashland to create another film with us called You Go Girl. And I can't wait to see what she does with that one.

[28:35] Gordon Cox: Yeah. How do you think about you're exploring all these things that you maybe wouldn't have otherwise? I'm guessing you probably would not have produced a film that if had the pandemic not hit and had you know the situation been what it was. How do you imagine all these new ways of working that you're exploring kind of continuing even once the live theater element gets back up and running?

[28:58] Nataki Garrett: Yeah, so you know, O was never was actually, you know, I conceived O uh prior to COVID. Yeah. Um while it was applying for the AD position, because I knew that OSF, because of its reach and number of, I think we we it had the in 2018 we had 70,000 attendees in a year. And so with that kind of reach, I was like, well, OSF is probably one of the only theaters um that that really could have a global reach. Um and so when the pandemic is over and when we're able to go back into our um our uh our theaters, O is another stage, it's another place. Um and it's it's it's because you know, we have nearly 10,000 views. We have reached nearly 60 countries. Um, you know, we're we're on par with RSC in terms of our ability to make a global impact.

And because of the paradigm shift of 2020, we ended up launching it before we we had planned to, but we're gonna use it as a platform to engage with the artists. You know, I asked Sharifa, you know, with this residency, what do you want to do? And Sharifa's response, Sharif is a film, I'm sorry, a stage director, but also does works in VR and AR and other mediums. And I was like, so what do you want to do with this time that you're here? And Sharifa's response was the film Ashland. And I I think the future of OSF, but I also think the future of theater has to place the artist at the center in that way. And I want to be able to respond in film, in serials, in on on stage, in plays, you know, in whatever, in all the multiplicity of ways in which the artist's heart can respond to the question, what do you want to do? Which is a very difficult question to answer.

[30:42] Gordon Cox: One of the things I feel like this time has also kind of made more prominent, or at least kind of highlighted, is the ways in which organizations like yours around the country have sort of banded together to either produce work or to advocate or um you know engage in a number of activities to sort of support each other and like you know, with this network that you uh that you guys have helped to create. Do you imagine that kind of collaborative um sort of spirit continuing uh even beyond you know this time when things are so hard?

[31:19] Nataki Garrett: I do. And actually I I'll um I'll put it this way uh right as I received I I received this position, um, several other artistic leaders emerged um uh in their new positions. And I think the there's a generational difference in in terms of the way that we think about how you come together, what collaboration is and why it's necessary. Collective action is at the center of the work that we do. And yet, you know, my predecessors actually worked at sort of creating little fiefdoms. And so the the beautiful thing about my colleagues that are you know now in these these positions of leadership is that we all came trained in the same way, that collective action is actually at the center of what we do.

And so, you know, I'm I'm I worked with Maria Goyanis, uh Joe Haj, Diane Paulus, and and um uh the artistic director at the theater Playco. I worked with all of those theaters and we produced um a Zoom play called This Is Who I Am, which was originally produced by was going to only be produced by uh Willie Mammoth and Playco, and they decided to bring the rest of us on. Um so that kind of response is is is what's needed in order to make sure that the field the field emerges. Part of the reason why I I fought for that federal funding is OSF is is heavily resourced. Um it's uh it was either going to survive the pandemic or it wasn't. Do you know what I mean? It's you know, we have a sizable endowment.

If if we couldn't make it through, it was because we weren't needed, right? But if we made it through when we were needed, my response is that that necessity that we provide to um to the field is to make sure that the rest of the field actually also survives, that we survive in an ecology and that we actually have to move together in order for us to grow together. Um, and that's really I think the future of of this art. And and and I have some colleagues who don't agree and who who you know who are very kind of still cloistered and they want to work on what they want to work on by themselves. I I just don't happen to be that person. I'm I'm I really do respond better in collaborative spaces.

And um and I actually think that our theaters grow uh better in collaborative spaces. So hosted a phone call, a national phone call with a few of my colleagues and uh we were talking about the their question was like how did you release and what did you do and what are you doing? And I gave them all the information I could and um you know and and we we decided that we're going to work together to make sure that our our shared donors and our shared board members um uh you know that that they know how how hard it is and how we're working all together in order to to bring our theaters forward um because it's in it's important that that our donors and our board members understand um and and and our patrons understand um that that we're sort of like um um um uh Adrian Marie Brown um uh in emergent strategy talks about the sort of mushrooms you know and how they sort of are all connected underneath you know we're a network in that same way and we act we're all actually connected and yeah I I think that's a great place uh to wrap this up thank you so much for uh chatting with me and uh we look forward to seeing what comes next uh from you at OSF and from all your collaborators around the country and it is we should say that the um that O is now accessible to people you know like me who are based in Brooklyn and can't make it to uh Ashland every year.

[35:09] Nataki Garrett: Yes, come on, come all, come on over to to OSF. I'm putting a door in your living room right now that you just have to open and come through.

[35:17] Gordon Cox: I look forward to it. Thanks so much, Nataki.

[35:20] Nataki Garrett: Thank you very much, Gordon. Thanks for having me.

[35:22] Gordon Cox: That was Nataki Garrett, the artistic director of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. The theater's first streaming production of 2021, Julius Caesar, is now streaming through March 27th. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us. It really helps us grow our audience of folks who love theater as much as you and I do. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft. You can find past episodes or subscribe on Apple Podcasts and on all the other pod places, including Spotify and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is another great place to find more theater for your ears. I'll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Until then, find me on Twitter at G CoxVariety. Thanks for listening and see you soon.