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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theater podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the Broadway scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders keeping theater alive during the pandemic.

[0:16] Gordon Cox: I'm your host, Gordon Cox.

[0:19] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Jennifer Ashley Tepper, the producer and theater historian whose varied resume includes producing shows like Be More Chill, curating and programming the cabaret space, Feinstein's 54 Below, and serving as a consultant on Lynn Manuel Miranda's upcoming movie version of Tick, Tick... Boom.

[0:38] Gordon Cox: She's also the author behind the Untold Stories of Broadway book series, a theater-by-theater chronicle of the shows and stories behind every Broadway house.

[0:47] Gordon Cox: The fourth volume of Untold Stories was released March 9th by Dress Circle Publishing.

[0:51] Gordon Cox: And it comes out at an extraordinary moment in the theater industry when every Broadway house has been dark for more than a year.

[1:07] Gordon Cox: Hey Jen, thanks for joining me.

[1:09] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you for having me.

[1:11] Gordon Cox: Um, before we talk specifically about volume four of the Untold Stories of Broadway, I wonder if we could just start off talking first about why you started that project, what sort of was the spark of it, and how long you've been working on it.

[1:26] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, as a theater nerd who was obsessed with Broadway but grew up far away in sunny South Florida, like so many of us, I became obsessed with studying New York theater from afar. And that kind of translated into like learning about the theaters themselves. So as I was pouring over like liner notes, books, cast albums, I would go, oh, like what's the Imperial Theater? Um, and so I became pretty obsessed with learning about shows through like their physical spaces, which when I first started working in professional theater, I was like, oh my god, this is even cooler than I thought. You know, I want to explore who had this dressing room and what happened to them in this orchestra pit. So it was a lot about like the fun for me of understanding like theater history and present through the physical spaces.

[2:03] Gordon Cox: And what was it? Well, first of all, was it always a book or series of books in your mind? Like, how did you, when you began the process and you started talking to people about it, what did you think the research was going to become?

[2:14] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, I always was like really obsessed with like just theater books that were about specific topics. And when I worked on Title of Show at the Lyceum in 2008, I became really obsessed with like the oldest continually operating theater on Broadway. And I thought someday, maybe like, you know, 30 years from now, I'll write a book that's specifically maybe about like, you know, the history of the Lyceum, um, through people's personal stories, maybe like all the Broadway theaters. And I started thinking about it. And then, um, my now publishers started a theater publishing company, Dress Circle, and they asked me if I wanted to pitch them a book just a couple years later, after they saw like a concert I did of If It Only Runs a Minute, celebrating underappreciated musicals.

So I pitched the book, and we were like, oh, it'll be one book that explores all of the theaters. And when I started um doing interviews and we realized just how many people we would really need to make each chapter have like a full story, um, we thought, oh, this is actually like six volumes.

[3:02] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. Well, and tell us a little bit more about like how many people you're talking to and who you're talking to and how you find them.

[3:08] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, I've interviewed almost 300 theater professionals at this point, and it's, you know, actors and producers and directors and writers, and then also people who aren't interviewed as often, you know, from stagehands, musicians, door people, company managers. Um, the idea was everyone who works in the physical theater, like everyone who makes the theater their home. And the idea also is, you know, when I'm writing about any given theater, like in the St. James, the goal is like, let's go back as far as possible. So I was really lucky to interview a number of people who worked on Broadway shows in the 40s, and almost every chapter that I can, you know, starts in the 40s. And thinking about that with these books was fascinating because now I started it in 2013.

Um, most of those people have sadly passed on. And it's like if I had started the project 10 years earlier, I might have been able to chronicle the 30s. And it just makes you realize like how important it is to really talk to people and get oral history before that, you know, history moves on.

[3:56] Gordon Cox: So you started this, you know, about seven years ago, I guess, or maybe eight now at this point. And then are you talking to people all along? Or like are you still talking to people for the series?

[4:06] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I did about 200 interviews in 2013, which was like the crazy year where it would be like William Ivy Long at 10 a.m., you know, Danny Burstein at noon. Uh, you know, I need to go at it too. It was truly like a crazy year that year of like doing the foundation of all the interviews. And then for each subsequent book, I go, okay, well, Studio 54 is in this book, you know. I don't have a musician who worked at Studio 54 in the 70s. I don't have, you know, a female playwright from The Jacobs. I don't have, you know, I try to like come up with as big a variety of stories as possible. So filling in the blanks based on which theaters and which stories are like not being told in each volume.

[4:44] Gordon Cox: And what are these, what's your guidance in these conversations in terms of what you what sort of things you're looking for in terms of the stories that you want them to tell?

[4:52] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, there's a few key things that I found I like to ask um with almost everyone, you know, just like what's your favorite Broadway theater you've worked in, and kind of basic questions like that. And then for uh actors who I know were working on Broadway, like before the 80s, like I'll always ask, did you go to any auditions in Broadway theaters? Like there's certain kind of like key questions, but really I love to ask people specific questions about the shows and the roles and the, you know, different jobs that they've had um that can kind of open up specific stories that they might not have told before. Um, so with a lot of people, it's just about knowing their resume, their career, and then like letting the conversation flow and seeing what they come up with that I wouldn't even know to ask them unless we were kind of just chatting.

[5:30] Gordon Cox: Yeah, and who overall have been some of the most memorable folks you've talked to for this?

[5:34] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, what's so funny is like I think so much about the locations that I did the interviews in. Like, even just now when I was describing like the crazy interview day, like a random one, but I was like, oh, I interviewed William Ivy Long in his costume shop and Danny Burstein on a bench in Riverside Park. And it's like the locations in New York became like part of the story. And especially because like I put my own discoveries and like memories in in the book, it became like it's not, you know, a straight-up research book. It's like more gonzo journalism, I like to call it. And the memorable interviews, though, you know, the most memorable was getting to interview Hal Prince in his office, which is like my dream of dreams, and he was very much a hero of mine.

Um, but there were so many that were just like both memorable because of the interview, but also because like I was sitting with Christian Borle on a rock in Central Park, you know. Um, it really became the act of interviewing became part of the story too.

[6:22] Gordon Cox: Right, yeah. And so let's talk a little bit about volume four. What are the theaters in this volume? And how did you how do you decide sort of which how did you end up grouping these theaters and in terms of volume by volume?

[6:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, it's like an instinct that comes from we know, you know, as like theater professionals how different the theaters are, but even for people who love Broadway, they might not really realize, like, oh, there's really a difference between, you know, the Imperial, which basically is a hit house which has like, you know, musical after musical that you're like, oh, Fiddler and Gypsy and all these shows, and something like Studio 54, which didn't actually have a hit Broadway show for 71 years and has had this like fascinating, like most people know, obviously about the like laser disco history, but do people know that it, you know, was an opera house, that it was like a restaurant.

[7:01] Gordon Cox: I did not. I learned that in your book.

[7:03] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, so many things. Um, the Federal Theater Project, you know, that like all these things. And so um, you know, it's a combination of like let's have smaller theaters and larger theaters, newer and older, you know, different theater owners, um, just having a variety in that manner as well. This book has the Imperial, The Jacobs, the Golden, The Minsk, Studio 54, The Freedman, and excitingly, the Fallen Five. So in each volume, I do a lost Broadway theater that's like demolished or no longer. And this volume, I finally did the five houses that were destroyed to build the marquee in 1982, which was really like an interesting moment to explore them because obviously it was like a tragic event that you know, if I could go back in history and change, I would. And yet, like some great things came out of it. So it's just given me a perspective to be writing about it during this time.

[7:46] Gordon Cox: But you tell us more about some of the great things that you feel like came out of it because the bad things seem obvious to us, right?

[7:52] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: No, so what I'm referring to is uh, you know, basically the reason that all of our current Broadway theaters are landmarked is because of that great theater massacre. So there was such an uproar from the theater community, which in itself is very inspiring. And you know, talking to interviewing so many people who were there and you know, read plays on a basically a stoop built by Joe Papp in honor of the Hayes and the Morasco and the Bijou and all the rest. Um, it was really inspiring to talk to those people to learn more about the protests. But the major good thing that came out of it is that New Yorkers and theater people raising their voices. While I didn't save those theaters, um, it did lead to, you know, our 41 Broadway theaters we have today, we wouldn't have if those theaters hadn't been destroyed.

If it hadn't been those theaters, I really do think in the if-then universe, you know, it would have been the court, it would have been the Lyceum, God forbid. But um, it made it so that the rest were landmarked by the city.

[8:36] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And who were some of the folks that you talked to for this book?

[8:40] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Um, for this book, uh, oh my god, so many. There are because there are like 300 interviews, there are about like I think two 20 in each book or so. Um, there's so many incredible ones in this book. Um, it really runs the gamut of like all kinds of folks. Um, today I was just rereading this amazing story from Anita Gillette about um, and you know, Anita Gillette like started in 12 Broadway shows. She's like, and she also like she did five shows of the Imperial. So for each chapter, I have a couple people who are like the, you know, touchstones of that theater. And almost always it's um, you know, someone who like really works there full time, a stagehand, a doorman, someone who stays there. But Anita Gillette is one of the narrators of the Imperial chapter, and she tells this story about how when she did the original production of Gypsy, she got pregnant, and they were gonna let her go from the show.

And Ethel Merman said, you gotta keep the kid, she can still do the cartwheels. And it's like there's just Ethel Merman saved her job. There's so many stories in each book that are really amazing. Um and I got to interview a lot of great people for this one.

[9:31] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And what do you have favorite stories or anecdotes that came out of this volume in particular that really surprised you and delighted you?

[9:39] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, it was there's so many. There's truly so many, and the book is uh kind of big, you know, volume four is like heftier than the others. You know, a big one. Um there was a lot to write about, there was a lot to say. There's so many favorites. You know, one of my other favorite things I learned about was the poker game, the longest running poker game on Broadway, which the original cast of Grease. Um about this, yeah, yeah. It's a great story.

[10:00] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[10:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, at the then Royale, now the Jacobs, basically they called it the longest running poker game on Broadway. And in the basement, they would just have an ongoing poker game at all times. So um, because the Jacobs and the Golden and the Majestic are connected and share that stage door, basically, like stagehands and musicians and even actors in between cues and between numbers, would run to the basement, play a hand of poker, and then like run back to their show. And over the years, it was like everyone from Sammy Davis Jr. to Elizabeth Taylor to Jerry Orbach. Um, it just went on and on. But it was so fun to interview some original Grease cast members who I forget, was it Eileen Graf who maybe said this that um, you know, they would be singing summer nights and then or they would be about to sing summer nights, and all of a sudden you'd see all the musicians run back into the pit um from the poker game.

So it just was fun to there's so much camaraderie, there's so much um tradition that you discover, and it's the shows too, but so much of like what's special about these books is being like, oh yeah, those two theaters always, you know, yell at each other across the street in their windows at half hour, or that's the poker game. It's so much about the community.

[10:56] Gordon Cox: Yeah. One of the things that uh is striking about so many of these theaters is they have these individual physical details. Like I think that that like three house stage door is one of like I vividly remember the first time going back there for an interview to do an interview because it's seems so unlikely and you didn't know an ex I didn't know it existed, and it was so seemed like such a cool surprise.

[11:16] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: But so, in addition to something like that, what are some of the other physical details of these theaters in this volume that you feel like really stand out for you? You know, Studio 54 obviously has a lot of lore, and that's like a really fun one. I was really obsessed with there's a safe backstage, which was once used to hold the money and drugs in the heyday of 1970s disco era. And now like it's in an actor's dressing room. And when I was back there, the kids and people in the picture were using it to hold their candy. But I think often it's used for makeup or costumes, but it's in a dressing room, which I find hilarious. There's so many, and there's so many in this book, but there's so many in other books too.

Like in every book I would become obsessed with, you know, when I did the Broadhurst and the Schoenfeld, the tunnels that go back and forth between the two theaters, which are on different streets, made it so that I kept discovering everyone I interviewed who worked in those theaters, I would be like, What was at the other house when you were playing and did you sneak across? And every time it would be like, Oh yeah, when we were doing Jekyll and Hyde, we would watch this number from Fossey, and we would run back and forth in the tunnel. And I'm like, people just don't realize that like it's my favorite thing because it's like high school theater, you know, it's like the camaraderie of that really moves me every time.

[12:24] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And everybody cherishes sort of the older theaters, but as you talked about sort of the mix of theaters in every volume. And like you talk about the Minskoff in this book, which many people have like less fond memories of or fewer fond memories of just because it's newer and you know newer theaters can get sort of a bad rap for being barns or what have you. What's your take on sort of what new theaters can do that older theaters can't do and what are you trying to sort of revitalize the image of some of these newer theaters with a project like this? Totally totally and I love the idea that like just like shows theaters have people who like that's my favorite theater that's my least favorite theater.

Like it's just different strokes for different folks. But what I did discover that was interesting as I was you know doing theaters like the Marquee, the Minskoff is that the companies in those shows are often really happy because they have so much space and they have a green room and they're not getting sick from being in an old building and there are pros and cons to every single space if you really stop to like actually look at them. And you know there was like so much that was fun to learn from our bender Robinson's like one of the narrators of the Minskoff chapter and he tells so many great stories about Lion King where I'm like you know this is kind of because they had it's because of the space they had more room to kind of you know expand as a company in that way.

And I think that also you know there's a certain romanticism with the older theaters but they really do all have pros and cons. And it's so much about the shows you saw there. You know like I never got to see a show in the Fallen Five but for like me and other people that I interview of like a certain generation it's like thoroughly modern Millie, Drowsy Chaperone and we do have fondness for the marquee whereas someone who chained themselves to the Morosco might have a different perspective. But there really are pros and cons to all of them.

[14:01] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And one of the things that your sort of theater by theater approach also points out is as you were saying, like the Imperial, for instance, has had a ton of hits. Like the house and the physic, the specifics of the physicality of the house and also its location and all that stuff can play a part in a show's success as much as the show itself. What have you learned over this whole process about kind of what that interplay is? Totally. It's such a catch-22 because what's interesting is like, you know, the Richard Rogers is such a hit house. And that's because it's like it's got a great location, it's got a great, this is a huge part of it that I think the average theatergoer might not think about, is the amount of seats in the orchestra section and how it impacts like how you can price it.

And basically, like the more viable, more like everyone wants this show and their theater shows get the you know the best theaters. And then it's sort of like, oh, the show that maybe was more of a like risk gets the more risky theater. So it sort of is a self-fulfilling prophecy in some ways, but it was interesting to learn that it was like, you know, the Richard Rogers has had way more Tony winners for best musical. And why is that? You know, it's like the seating, it's the location, it's the this, the size, all these things. And it also is a thing where you know, they went back for Hamilton because they did In the Heights. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way as well.

[15:12] Gordon Cox: And what's your sense of like the way the real estate shifts has affected the kind of shows that we see on Broadway? Do you have thoughts on what that influence has been?

[15:22] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, I'm fascinated by this. And one of the main things about what you just asked that I'm fascinated by is the idea that there used to be all these smaller Broadway theaters that were more unconventional spaces, like the Edison, like the 22 Steps, like the Morosco and the Bijou and the Haze, and you know, the Gaiety and Astor are also in the book, although unfortunately they stopped being Broadway theaters long before it and Astor was pretty big. But all these smaller Broadway theaters, you know, if we did have them, like what shows would we have? The Bijou was a 300 seat Broadway theater with like special contracts. If we had that today and it was Tony eligible, you know, what kinds of risky productions could happen there?

And I think that about so many of the fallen theaters of you know, but that were destroyed between like 1970 and 1990. You know, the Criterion Center, which is part of Roundabout, there are a few. So I do always wonder, like, real estate hugely impacts art in that way, how it would have impacted the next generation of shows.

[16:11] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Jennifer Ashley Tepper right after the break.

[16:21] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with Jennifer Ashley Tepper. Part of this project for you is to sort of detail some of these fallen theaters, but there are these theaters that exist in some form, you know, defunct now, but could theoretically be theater spaces again? Are there any around town that are among your favorite that you'd like to see come alive again?

[16:41] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Absolutely. You know, I think that theater nerds, like we all talk about the Mark Hellinger, which is now the Times Square Church, which would be magical. And the great thing about that is like anything could happen. That theater's still beautiful intact. It looks like it did when My Fair Lady and Jesus Christ Superstar played there. The Edison is part of the Edison Hotel. It's still like, you know, a ballroom for events. You know, you never know what could happen, especially this next era of theater that we're going into. Who knows? The Times Square Theater is the third one that I think about a lot, which is on 42nd Street and was abandoned for many years. And basically some of its real estate was used to build other, you know, houses and buildings, like it's part of it is in the Lyric now.

It doesn't have like a load-in space that makes sense. There's all these like, oh, that could maybe never become a theater. But I think like never say never, you know, we don't know what can happen in the next 20 years.

[17:25] Gordon Cox: Do you think working on these books has influenced your opinion on because some people there's that there's that like, oh, the theaters east of Broadway are the less prime theaters. Well how like how does that happen? And you know, I mean, you talked about the Lyceum, like what like how do theaters that have been around forever get that reputation? And how do how is it at all warranted?

[17:47] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, you know, there's so many funny things that people would say to me while I was writing, like, you know, sometimes people would be like, oh, you know, I love working at the Nederlander because I don't have to walk through Times Square. I can like be a little bit south of it. Like people find a spin on all these things. And I do think that there's something to the fact that like the theaters that are on quote unquote the wrong side of Broadway, you know, their marquees are not on 45th Street where you're going to a show and you see all the other theaters as well. There are certain small disadvantages like that, but mostly I think it's, you know, that it just the reputation just needs the right show to come in and like kind of save the theater, quote unquote.

Like I kept running into times where like, you know, the Urus is a good example of, you know, there were great shows there, Sweeney Todd was there, but it didn't really have a big hit show until Wicked. And usually, you know, a show can revitalize a theater and make it into a hit house in a certain way.

[18:36] Gordon Cox: Back when you started this process and started doing all these interviews, what have you learned since then that has sort of been most surprising to you or most notable to you? Like, how has this process sort of influenced the way you think of Broadway overall right now?

[18:50] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, it's so much of like the same thing that happened to us today happened to other people in the past in a different way. Like it's almost, I think and I hope it's like erased some arrogance, maybe of like we're doing brand new things all the time. Because even though we are, and that's exciting, there are always parallels. Like there are always things that I find where, you know, when I was doing research for this book, I was reading about the first big Broadway radio play, which was at the Imperial, where people were like loving it. They were like, Oh, I can listen to a Broadway play on the radio, but a lot of people were like, Oh, then why would anyone go to a Broadway show if you can like listen to a Broadway show on the radio in your house?

And I was like, oh my god, the quotes I'm reading, like are basically you could insert streaming, and like we all know, like, or no, we don't all know, people have these debates of like, will streaming impact theater positively, negatively? Like, what is it like? And regardless of what side you land on, like there were people in another century having a similar conversation. So it's just made me realize like there's always something interesting you can look at that will shine some light on like a current situation.

[19:47] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And I imagine working on this particular volume right now must have been very different for you in terms of what's going on in Broadway. Like this is the book that came out, the volume that came out when Broadway has been dark for a year. So what was it like sort of revisiting all these interviews you did and maybe doing a few more in the run up to producing the book?

[20:08] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, it was fascinating because as you said, like most of the interviews were already done. What wasn't done was like me writing the book and editing the interviews and all of that. So it was so much of, oh, this is why I want to write these books in the first place to celebrate Broadway and to show people how essential it is and why, you know, this is something that we miss so much, like the specifics of that. But also like with so much that's gone on in the last year, like there are so many stories in the book about social justice, about like racial justice, about feminism. Like, there are so many things we're talking about that I was like, oh yeah, like you know, Anita Gillette telling a story about like Ethel Merman saving her job while she was pregnant, like that's a story about feminism, you know, and it might be a story about Gypsy also, but like the way that we're all thinking about these issues now, like they're not divorced from theater, obviously.

And there's so many times I would come upon something that I would be like, oh, like thinking about how the original cast of Hair did this or that might be really instructive to something that we're going through right now. So it was really that, and it was also very sad, you know, it was like I always love being like, oh, I'm writing about the Winter Garden. And I can go see a show at the Winter Garden tonight. And there was none of that. And it really made me, you know, it was bittersweet, but it was also like a really meaningful time to dive into the stories.

[21:36] Gordon Cox: And how have the events of the last year also influenced the way you think about your work as a historian in terms of the kinds of people whose stories get told, the kind of people whose stories get remembered on Broadway and whose work is embraced and whose isn't? How do you think differently now about sort of inclusivity and diversity?

[21:52] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, you know, so much so that in fact I think one of the main things that I did in this book more was that there are so many stories about people who are not in the history books, who like were forgotten, who are maybe in the minority, like who, you know, there are so many different ways to look at that. But one thing is that a lot of them can't be interviewed, like a lot of that like early 20th century, like black writers who, you know, I was very influenced by Shuffle Along. Like I dedicated my last book to it because it changed me so much as a historian. But I always since Shuffle Along was like who are the writers of color, who are the women, who are the LGBTQ writers, like who are all these people that were just not part of the history books and how can I put them in?

And sometimes that's by going like, oh, this I need to interview this person, and sometimes it's by going, oh, I need to research this and put this in this chapter. But a lot of that in this book was just done like much more deeply and more carefully, and with a lot of stuff that I've learned, honestly, from the past year of like what we've all been going through and talking about.

[22:34] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Um, and it I, you know, I can always do better. That was another thing too of like when you're interviewing and you're interviewing like, oh, again, like a stage hand from the Imperial, a this from that, and you realize that hiring practices are racist or sexist, it's like it's hard to make the interviews not reflect that in some way. So, how do I use my, you know, microphone to counteract that? We had a lot of those conversations.

[22:54] Gordon Cox: Yeah, I bet.

[22:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. And so, in addition to your work as a historian, you do a lot of other things as well in the theater. What tell us about what some of them are and what unites them all for you?

[23:05] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. So under normal non-pandemic circumstances, I'm the creative and programming director at Feinstein's 54 Below, where you know, so much of what I love doing there is putting musical theater history on stage and like bringing it to life, whether it's like reunion concerts or whether it's like celebrating a specific songwriter. Um, and there are so many ways that you know the books connect to what I put on stage at 54 Below. Um, and there are just ways that, you know, I love our frequent performer Patti LuPone, and like I don't know if I would have been able to interview her if I didn't work with her at 54 Below. So they do feed each other in that way, which is always great. Um, and then I'll say, like, you know, as a producer and having produced Be More Chill on Broadway in 2019, there were definitely things that I thought about a lot during the producing process that like I think impacted the writing of this book.

Whether it was wanting to show an element of Broadway that people don't know about as much, whether it was like, oh, like this is an interesting fandom of a show in the 60s that like has a parallel to what Be More Chill was. Um, there was a lot as a producer that I kind of looked at differently that made me um write this book in a certain way as well.

[24:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah, tell us a little bit more about uh Feinstein's uh 54 Below. What was going on there when the theater shut down and what can we look forward to uh as we slowly eventually get back up and running?

[24:14] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, um, what was so great, I guess, for the past couple years was that I was really able to program the venue months in advance. So um, what we did when the shutdown happened was that, you know, I was like many people postponing or canceling the next couple weeks of shows. But unlike a Broadway show where it's like, hey, you know, we're not doing Come From Away, we'll call you when we are doing Come From Away. It's like every week we have 18 shows, and you know, there are like dozens of different artists every month, and we had months and months planned. So throughout the whole pandemic, I've been in touch with like so many artists to be like, hey, let's move your show to April. Hey, wait, no, July.

And it's just been kind of a constant conversation with so many different solo artists, you know, musicals and concert writers, all different people. Um, I'm really excited for the next era. I think that like we're just all gonna like explode with happiness to be in the same room listening to music and experiencing stories. Um, there's so much that I want to do. I do think it's just gonna be um so exciting to have like, you know, reunions of people that haven't seen each other and are collaborators. There's gonna be um seeing material that people wrote for the first time. Um, it's gonna be like, you know, shows that were canceled in concert. I think there's just gonna be so much that we can do at 54 Below that's really exciting.

[25:21] Gordon Cox: And what's important to you as a historian about a space like 54 Below, Feinstein's 54 Below? It's, you know, a smaller, it's a cabaret space, it's much more intimate. It's a totally uh it's it is related to the Broadway theaters that you have been writing about in your book series, but it is an entirely different experience. Why, what does what do spaces like 54 Below add to the theater scene?

[25:42] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, one thing that I love so much is just the fact that artists get to do something that's like really authentic and personal to them. So whether it's you know, like an artist in their 80s doing a retrospective of their career, or whether it's someone who is like just starting out, kind of giving their perspective and the songs that they care about. I love that element of it. Um, I love that we get to see so many writers premiere new work that later ends up on Broadway or off Broadway, or it's just like, oh, I saw this writer before they blew up. And I love that we just get to do so many different kinds of things, you know, whether it's like Broadway singing Spice Girls, or whether it's like, hey, you know, a show like Don't Quit Your Night Job, which is like Broadway folks doing sketch.

Um, the variety of it is so moving to me. And just like on any given night, because we often have three shows, I'll be like, oh, like, you know, there was a night where I remember like I sat with uh Stu and watched Five a Shwinkle, and then like I saw Five a Shwinkle talking to the Skivvies, and I was like, this is 54 Below. Um, just like again, like I it goes back to the same thing as you said of like the books, which is like community and camaraderie and like just people creating stuff. Um, and I love when people collaborate for the first time at 54 Below and then go on to collaborate on shows. That's also something I love.

[26:44] Gordon Cox: Right, yeah. And you have a particular uh connection to the work of Jonathan Larson. Tell us a little bit about that and some of the work you've done just recently.

[26:52] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, um, you know, I've always just loved Jonathan Larson, like grew up very much obsessed with Rent and Tick, Tick... Boom. Um, I'm currently the historian consultant on the Tick, Tick... Boom film, um, which is super exciting. And I created this thing called the Jonathan Larson Project, which um a number of years ago I started working on uh basically song cycle of his unheard work, as though you know it was like the new musical theater song cycle he might have created, um, which was all songs that were at the Library of Congress that I did a lot of research to uncover, um, songs that nobody had heard before, cut songs, songs from projects we've never seen, um, kind of a lot of political stuff, a lot of different genres of music.

Um, and we premiered that at 54 Below and got to do an original cast album and are currently looking at maybe some next theatrical steps for that, which is exciting. So um, yeah, I've done a lot of work with Jonathan Larson's legacy, also including my books as well.

[27:39] Gordon Cox: And what for the Tick, Tick... Boom film, what does that mean for you? What was your job on that film?

[27:45] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Or is on that film? Because I've done so much research into Jonathan's life and you know, his relationships with his friends and what his process on Tick, Tick... Boom was, I was there to um kind of provide like the historical perspective for moments as they were, you know, being put in movie form. Um, but what was really exciting was that the movie was, you know, made during the pandemic, so um, I'm just happy it's it got made.

[28:08] Gordon Cox: Yeah, filmed in the fall, right?

[28:10] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It was the last year.

[28:11] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[28:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's just like I when the pandemic happened, and I was like, oh my god, we're gonna be on pause for so long, and it was so awesome that it happened. And I think the spirit of Jonathan like helped that along.

[28:21] Gordon Cox: And when will that be released? Do they have a date on that yet?

[28:24] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It has not been announced yet. I do not know.

[28:27] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Um, and tell us also a little bit more about your work as a producer uh of sort of full musicals, some like Be More Chill and Broadway Bounty Hunter. I know you've done a lot of work with Joe Iconis, but like what is uh what's guiding you in terms of the projects you want to produce?

[28:43] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, you know, I always um really like have, you know, since I discovered it been very much obsessed with Joe Iconis' work. And you know, over the past decade we've worked on so many musicals and um, you know, concerts and albums and things together, and just the idea of having like a long collaboration with someone where um, you know, sometimes I'm like the marketing person and sometimes I'm the dramaturge, and like on Be More Chill, like it was this big moment for us where like all these stars aligned and all this hard work came to fruition, and I got to produce the show on Broadway with an amazing team. Um, so it has been, you know, like a journey of um, you know, so many people in our family of artists have played all these different roles on shows.

It's like kind of Steppenwolfian uh commercial musical theater in some ways. And I just think that his writing and his shows are thrilling, and I just love so many of the things that we're working on now too. Um, we did Love and Hate Nation, another new musical of his at Two River where Be More Chill started in uh fall of 2019 and are hoping to have some next steps for that. And he's working on some other new shows as well that I'm excited about.

[29:40] Gordon Cox: Right. As a historian, what's your sense of, if you have any yet, of how this long shutdown and everything that's happened over the course of it will shift what Broadway becomes in the future?

[29:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, I it's so fun that we're all having like this conversation now, and we're all like, I don't know. And I love that it's being recorded because now I'm like, I just want to go back in two years and see like who was the closest, you know, in my predictions. Um, but you know, I think that um for a while, theater is gonna have to be more um New Yorkers and more tri-state area focused as far as like who the theater intends its demographic to be. And I think that may impact what we see, at least in the initial reopening is gonna be as we know, like gradual and just like a couple of shows that can are able to do that. But in the like first year or two, as we're like rebuilding the tourist market, rebuilding the like come to New York, see a Broadway show, um, just seeing what gets produced and what succeeds based on it being more local audiences, I think, um, will be an interesting one of the interesting ways that like the environment shifts a little bit.

[30:40] Gordon Cox: Yeah. What's the first show that you're gonna see when Broadway is back up and running?

[30:45] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, I keep fantasizing about that, and there's so many that I would like to, but I just think that we're gonna see like three or four shows come back first. You know, I don't think it's gonna be even 10. I think it's just gonna be like a couple. Um, I guess my real answer is like literally anything. Like, I just get me in a Broadway theater. Um, I'm just so excited to like touch the walls. Um, yeah, I really I didn't get to see the Company revival before the shutdown.

[31:06] Gordon Cox: So I'm really...

[31:07] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Me either.

[31:08] Gordon Cox: I know. That's the that's that's on the list, right?

[31:10] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, for sure.

[31:11] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[31:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Um and uh let's I wonder if we could close with just uh give me another one of your favorite stories from this volume to encourage people to uh take a look.

[31:23] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Um, you know, another favorite story of this volume is the great Don Scardino, who Broadway actor, like who became, you know, producer director, uh, TV of shows like 30 Rock, he told me this incredible story about an audition he had in a Broadway theater for the original Pippin, where he was really nervous. He was like very young, and he went to go to the bathroom in the Imperial bathroom. Um, and he looked up and he was like peeing next to Bob Fosse with like Bob Fosse's signature cigarette like popping out of his mouth. Um, and uh Don Scardino was like, oh my god, I'm about to audition for you, and Bob Fosse like zipped up his fly and was like, well, I hope it's longer than this pee, and just the idea that like such a silly, like really silly story, but I was like, Bob Fosse, and like just the the like, oh okay, am I really gonna ever like wait in line at the Imperial bathroom without thinking about that ever again.

And then um the Don Scardino like magic of the end of the story is that he was the second choice and he was offered the understudy in the original Pippin, and he turned it down because he wasn't wanting an understudy, and then like shortly after got called by Stephen Schwartz, who obviously saw him in that audition to play um Jesus in Godspell, and that was like a big moment for him. So just the idea that like it's the silly story, Bob Fosse, the bathroom, and then you're like, oh, like you never know what anything can lead to. And it's like that's like uh, you know, two paragraphs in the book, and so many of the stories just like pop out like that. And I'm like, oh, there's just so much special stuff that I'm so grateful people shared with me.

[32:41] Gordon Cox: Yeah, well, and we can look forward to more stories like that uh in the future as we get back up and running. Um, thanks, Jen. Thanks for joining me. Nice to talk to you.

[32:50] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[32:55] Gordon Cox: That was the producer and theater historian Jennifer Ashley Tepper, whose new book, The Untold Stories of Broadway Volume 4, is now out from Dress Circle Publishing. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you listen to us. It really helps us grow our audience of folks who love theater as much as you and I do. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft. You can find past episodes or subscribe on Apple Podcasts and on all the other pod places, including Spotify and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is another great place to find more theater for your ears. I'll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Until then, find me on Twitter at GCOXVariety. Thanks for listening and see you soon.