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[0:07] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders keeping theater alive and bringing performances to your screens during the pandemic.

[0:19] Gordon Cox: On Broadway, on Netflix, and around the world.

[0:22] Gordon Cox: I'm your host, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the director and choreographer Kenny Ortega.

[0:28] Gordon Cox: If you're a millennial or Gen Z theater fan, there's a decent chance you had your love of the stage sparked, or at least cemented by Kenny Ortega. He was the director-choreographer of the first three wildly popular High School Musical movies, and he's made a career of bringing memorable musical and dance moments to the screen.

[0:45] Gordon Cox: He choreographed the films Dirty Dancing, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, and Xanadu, and his directorial debut was Newsies, the 1992 cult favorite that inspired the successful Broadway musical. He's also directed concert tours and films for people like Cher and Michael Jackson.

[1:01] Gordon Cox: Next up for him is a new musical series on Netflix, Julie and the Phantoms, based on a Brazilian series about a teen girl who starts a band with three ghosts. Ortega is in the virtual studio with me to talk about his philosophy of shooting song and dance for screens, and offered some advice to theater artists migrating to digital screens during the pandemic.

[1:27] Kenny Ortega: Thank you, Gordon. Great to be here.

[1:40] Gordon Cox: And then you sort of transitioned into concerts, it seems like, and then you made the move to screen. Through all that, was screen work something that always interested you?

[1:51] Kenny Ortega: Yes. And I'll tell you, you know, when I saw West Side Story at the drive-in movie theater with my parents, we were all the kids, we were all packed into the car. That really was life-changing for me. They kicked me out of the car, and I had to stand outside the car and listen to the movie in the box because I couldn't sit still. And I was already engaged in theater, you know, from a young age. So, you know, that really sort of pointed me in, you know, into a place where I'd hoped that my life would involve me in both film and theater.

[2:25] Gordon Cox: Right. And first of all, for how did your work in theater serve you as you started to move into dances for concerts? Like what's theatrical about a good dance in a pop concert?

[2:42] Kenny Ortega: Well, you know, the first concerts that I did as a director choreographer were with a rock and roll group out of Phoenix, Arizona called the Tubes. And they had employed me because they were really doing theater and really, you know, fantastic, wildly imagined theater. And they were getting hurt, and none of them had theater backgrounds. And they'd heard they saw me dancing one night in a club in San Francisco, and they looked in on me and they'd heard that I was a theater guy, and they came up to me and said, "Would you come and check out what it is that we do? We're looking for someone that can help us." And I fell in love and ran away and joined the circus. And so, you know, my first entry into doing choreography for concerts was very theatrical.

It wasn't dance, but then, because of the Tubes, I, you know, artists like Cher and Madonna and Stevie Nicks, all kinds of different pop artists at that time kind of saw my work there in my early video, and I found myself in not only choreographing early music videos, but also being asked to participate in the development of concert tours.

[3:56] Gordon Cox: Right, right, yeah. And then you started to transition into film work, and one of your very first gigs, if not your very first in the film industry, was collaborating on the choreography of Xanadu with a gentleman named Gene Kelly, who I feel like had to is pretty we can pretty safely say was the world's leading expert on sort of creating and performing dance for the screen, right?

[4:20] Kenny Ortega: Yeah, yeah. What do you remember as being the kind of biggest lessons you learned as you worked with him and kind of choreographed this piece that involved roller skating, by the way?

[4:31] Kenny Ortega: Yeah, I loved roller skating. I was one of those guys that was, you know, going to the clubs to roller disco skating through the parks, and I was right up your alley then. And Tony Basil, who was one of my great mentors, choreographer Tony Basil, she was doing the Rose, and I was assisting her on the road, right? I'm far too busy to do this film. I want to introduce you to Joel Silver and Lawrence Gordon, and maybe you'll do this film. Well, it was just a roller skating movie, it wasn't no Olivia, no Gene, there was no one in. So it was a little movie. And then suddenly, you know, I get the call. Oh, Olivia Newton-John is gonna be in it, and I'm like, "Ah, how do you choreograph a movie?" And then I get a call. Gene Kelly is considering taking a role in the film. However, even though he's not going to dance and made it very clear that there's no dancing, he'll want to sign off on the choreographer.

[5:26] Kenny Ortega: Oh, what a way to break into the movie. Yeah, wow. I'm a huge fan of his for my entire life. We became friends and very good friends. He became like a second father to me and a mentor, and one of the greatest gifts that Gene shared with me was his whole concept of designing choreography for the camera, and also the importance of having a reason for being that lives at the center of everything that you do creatively. So when you can barely get out of bed in the morning and crawl into your shoes, that you feel a passion for what it is that you're doing. And he was so inspirational.

[6:05] Gordon Cox: Tell us a little bit more about what you mean and what it means to you to design dance for the camera. How do you think about that? How is that different from designing dance for the stage?

[6:17] Kenny Ortega: Sure. Well, as a youngster, I did a lot, I did theater in school, I did theater all up and down the San Francisco Bay Area in a number of different theaters. I did children's theater, I did musical theater, I was an apprentice backstage, you know, and I worked in the round and I worked in proscenium and I worked in black box. And then suddenly, you know, I was getting ready to do a movie, and I had no background in film choreography. And Gene pulled me aside and he said, you know, if you're ever going to realize your goals as a choreographer for film, you're gonna have to be responsible for where the camera is. And you can't be letting every person that brings you on as a choreographer just make those choices for you.

You need to learn how to design your choreography for the camera, and you need to pitch that and put that forward, and that's not that you're not going to get director involvement or input, but you need to have a real point of view. And so he took me through all of his films. And he broke them down. I mean, we sat in his living room and he broke down these films. And he said, "You see why I did that? And you see." And then I was given the opportunity to choreograph the only duet in Xanadu with Gene Kelly and Olivia Newton-John. And he basically put a stopwatch around my neck and a viewfinder around my neck. And he closed the sound stage, and the two of us went in there. And it was my first time designing choreography for the camera and directing a musical number for film.

[7:56] Kenny Ortega: Wow. Film performance. And yeah. You know, new kid on the block. So what a golden guy and a loving guy. Really tremendous.

[8:08] Gordon Cox: And what have you discovered works on screen that does not work that you cannot do on stage that you could never do on stage?

[8:16] Kenny Ortega: Well, I think you can pop in. But we've seen West Side Story now, the new version of West Side Story do that. What once was is no longer. I loved that production so much. This sort of merging of cinema and live theater, you know, and the performance of Isaac Powell was just like the most incredible turn on the character of Tony, so smart and brave and bold and courageous. And I wrote stories, you know, that Sondheim was in rehearsals watching him, and allowed that, you know, to be born. But, you know, I would say in the past, you know, that there's certain angles, obviously, in a traditional theater in New York, you know, you're not getting the back unless everyone's turning around. You're not seeing little things, little tiny things perhaps that would go past you on a stage unless you came back to see it again and again.

Where in a film you can go in on a glance, on a look, on a, you know, and what's your do you have a theory on how often the camera should sort of cut away or switch shots because many people who are dance fans who watch certain dance scenes on screen complain that they feel like they can't see the dance because there's so much cutting and shifting and nauseated watching some film that where there's so many cuts.

[10:01] Kenny Ortega: Yeah. I'm an old school, you know, and that's not to say that I have it, you know, I feel that you know that the scene, the dance, the story that you're trying to get across, you know, what your ambition is has a lot to do with your cutting pattern. And that, you know, cutting to music, you know, I think is fine for music video, and perhaps for some sort of moments in a film. But I use music and dance and film to tell story, you know, to move character forward, to, you know, by the end of a musical number and most of my work, you're somewhere you weren't before it started. So, you know, cutting is I'm real careful about that. With a wonderful editor, Don Brochou, who I've worked with for the last eight films that I've done. And he too, you know, was a big fan of the old school, which is like let the dance prevail, allow the scene to take form.

[11:05] Kenny Ortega: Don't be in such a rush or insecure that your audience can't sustain their disbelief and just hang with you.

[11:11] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[11:11] Kenny Ortega: It seems to me that what you're saying about moving a character forward and moving a story forward is theater right there. That's also what makes a dance sort of theatrical. Does that come out of your theater base, do you think?

[11:25] Kenny Ortega: Yes, and also, you know, in working alongside certain directors along the way that also had an appreciation for theater, working with people like Michael Jackson, who had an incredible sense of theater and appreciation and respect for theater. Working with directors like Emile Ardellino when we did Dirty Dancing, every dance in that movie had a reason for being there. It was just no, you know, and working with Francis Ford Coppola and John Hughes. Yep, we did together in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I learned a lot in TV from Don Misher. I learned a lot, you know, and again, that's not to say that something can't just sort of slide in, you know, and happen that has no rhyme or reason, that as a zany and fun sort of intrusion. But for the most part, in my work, you know, it is to advance storytelling. And yes, that for sure was cemented in me from my early days in theater.

[12:25] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And looking back on some of the projects you've worked on for film and TV, what are some of your favorite dance sequences and why?

[12:36] Kenny Ortega: Just, you know, sometimes it wasn't even dance, it just felt like dance, the rhythm in a scene.

[12:42] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[12:42] Kenny Ortega: When I worked with Amy Sherman Palladino and Dan Palladino, who now have the glorious Ms. Mizell, yeah, tremendous mastery that they produce and direct and write. When I worked with them on Gilmore Girls, I mean they said we love working with choreographers as directors. You know, back in the day, I mean, there were producers that said we don't think choreographers necessarily make great film directors. So, you know, Amy brought me in and she inspired me to look for the rhythm in the scenes and the musicality in the scenes. And so that was really fun working on Gilmore Girls. So even though it didn't break out into dance, for the most part, it moved like a dance. My favorite dance scenes that I've been a part of, I mean, I think that there are some in a few, Ferris Bueller for sure, even though that is more staged and less, you know, sort of dance.

That was just my very, very first directing job in a motion picture. I was the second unit director to do a parade sequence with thousands of people and 14 cameras and one shot, one turn. And John Hughes was like, you can do it. And he gave me the privilege and the opportunity to do something that I had never done. And so I would have to say that reigns among the top and everything in Dirty Dancing. Working with Emile and Jennifer and Patrick and Cynthia, oh man. What on that mountain, you know, away from the world and just invested in the story and in the work. And that was glorious.

[14:25] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Kenny right after the break.

[14:36] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with director and choreographer Kenny Ortega. Let's talk a little bit about Julie and the Phantoms. First of all, what interested you about the project when they came to you with it?

[14:49] Kenny Ortega: I'd heard about it as a successful kids' television program in Brazil called Julie Eos Fantasmas. And it was pitched to us by George Salinas, one of our executive producer partners, to Dan Cross and Dave Hoje. My agents wanted us to work together. And they pitched this project, and in its simplest form, I liked the idea. And then we were told right off that we had complete freedom, no boundaries, that we could make any choices, that we could take this in a direction of our own. And that was it. You know, I just thought, great, you know, we have two guys that I can't wait to collaborate with, and an idea at its base, I love. And then the freedom to be wild and inventive.

[15:38] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And how is it like other work that you've done previously? And how is it not like the work you've done previously?

[15:45] Kenny Ortega: Well, I haven't done a series previously. I mean, all I've directed series. The last time I executive produced and directed a series was back in the 80s, a series called Hull High that I did with ABC. And so it's been a long time since I've sort of been helming an entire series.

[16:08] Gordon Cox: Yeah, and so it was like doing three movies.

[16:11] Kenny Ortega: Uh huh.

[16:11] Gordon Cox: On a one movie budget, right?

[16:15] Kenny Ortega: Of course. It had its challenges, and also we were working with, you know, in some cases, children. It's just turned 15, yeah, and Sasha 16, and Jada Marie fit 14. And so, you know, you're working with special hours and requirements to make sure that the set is safe, yeah, and that you're not wiping people out, but yet at the same time wanting to be ambitious and do something that's gonna work.

[16:45] Gordon Cox: Right. And tell us about the music and the musical sequences in the show.

[16:50] Kenny Ortega: A lot of them are sort of they're performing in the world of the piece, right? They're not sort of more traditional musical theater dances, although there are some of those too as they move along. Although they all have sort of character beats or moments that I feel like was part of the math of you putting those sequences together. Tell us about sort of how you thought about those sequences and how they exist in the world of the piece.

[17:12] Kenny Ortega: You know, back when I started with High School Musical with Gary Marsh at the Walt Disney Company, we came in, Bill Borden and Barry Rosenbusch and I came in and we pitched High School Musical. And Gary, who was the president of the Disney Channel at that time said, I've been waiting for four years for the right idea and the right people to come before me. And he said, Kenny, I have such an appreciation for you and what you do. And he said, you know, how do you turn this into a musical? What would be your process? And I said, Well, we would just, we would look through this book and we would create an arc of where we feel music is best suited to be able to move story forward, to create surprise, to raise the stakes, to move our characters forward, and to evolve this story in a way that music could do wonderfully.

And he said, let's do it. And at that stage, I worked with the music supervisor at the Disney Channel, and we created an arc, and that became the way in for me with all of these films for all three High School Musical and Descendants and with Julie and the Phantoms. Yeah, we sat down. I built an arc, shared it with everybody, got input, and then we went out to a group of writer producers, songwriter producers.

[18:41] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. And we should say that there feels like there are at least two original songs per episode, right? I mean, there's no shortage of original music in Julie and the Phantoms.

[18:53] Kenny Ortega: The album has 15 original songs, but yeah, but there are at least two original musical moments in every half-hour episode.

[19:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. And you were talking about the cast and the youth of the cast, and they are very believably sort of youthful. Are they younger than the High School Musical cast at the time when you first started working with them?

[19:13] Kenny Ortega: Well, actually, right about the same age.

[19:15] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[19:16] Kenny Ortega: Right about the same age, found them differently. But yeah, but took the same amount of time to be certain that they were the right group of people.

[19:25] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that, actually. That was my next question about casting.

[19:29] Kenny Ortega: And you know, Madison Reyes, who's Julie, is a total newcomer.

[19:33] Gordon Cox: Yeah, total newcomer.

[19:35] Kenny Ortega: Well, first of all, every song that you hear is them. One of them, when I pitched this idea with Dan and Dave to Netflix, we said, we don't want to just come to you with a series, we want to come to you with a touring opportunity. We want to come to you with something that's bigger than just a series, and they loved it, and they were like, We're ready for that. And but how are you gonna do that? How are you gonna find kids that can play and sing and also deliver the emotion and good humor of what you're pitching? And I said, We will. It's what I do, it's what I most, you know. And stop until we find it. And with Madison, we had a whole open call. We saw a lot of young girls, many of which we brought into the final testing phase, but I wasn't certain, and so my casting directors, Lapador and Hart sent out a thousand letters all across North America, Canada, and the US to high schools of the performing arts, and just basically said, we're looking for a young Latina to play the lead in a music-driven series.

And my agents called me and said, sit down. I wanted a Julie from the block. I wanted a girl that was just relatable, but that also had all the gifts. And I sat down. She'd never been in front of a camera before. She'd never been in a recording studio before. She never did a self-tape before. She had no idea of the process, so she learned everybody's lines. Oh, wow, and drug her electric piano out onto her porch and plugged it in. She sang a song from Waitress and told her parents to be quiet. And then as she walked out, she started to deliver her lines. And then you could see her hearing the lines, but there was no one speaking them. Wow. Here we're doing a story about a girl and three ghosts, and I thought this is it. The girl to beat. And she did. She did it. She brought it to the table.

[21:45] Gordon Cox: You alluded to this as being a thing that you do, but it is, you find you have more than once found young talented performers, including Zac Efron and Vanessa Hudgens in High School Musical.

[21:55] Kenny Ortega: What is, or can you characterize in general the kind of spark that you look for in these young performers? Again, theater background, my theater background. The patience that was taken, you know, by directors and to put together an ensemble, you know, and and not rushing. And I remember auditioning myself. When I auditioned for the musical Hair in 1970 in San Francisco, I stood in line for five hours. I got called back over three months. You know, and and and but what I came to appreciate was what the value of what the end result became. Right. You know, and so you know, in the beginning, I'd get a lot of I'd get in a lot of trouble from agents that would say, What the hell is he doing in there?

He's had these actors in there for six hours. They've got other stuff to do. But then the actors were calling the agents, going, it was the most incredible audition I've ever been to. I've never been asked for more. I've never, you know, and and so for me, I it's taking my time and looking for the promise, you know, looking for the promise, looking for partners, looking for young people that are going to be brave and are gonna spill it and bring something to the day, and who are generous, and and I look for that, and and and who want to grow and who want an experience and are willing to learn and and you know that that we should also add that uh in addition to the uh new faces that a lot of people won't recognize, a lot of theater people in particular will recognize Cheyenne Jackson, who shows up in multiple episodes and has the closest thing to a real sort of Busby Berkeley musical number, right?

[23:39] Gordon Cox: Yeah, uh tell us about tell us about that casting and kind of the role he plays.

[23:43] Kenny Ortega: You know, uh uh uh Cheyenne played Hades in Descendants 3, our last uh uh movie of and I was already a huge fan of Cheyenne's, I've seen him on Broadway, I've seen him on television. He was in Xanadu, in fact. Yes, I saw that, and laughed as hard as anybody in the audience believed that uh when I heard he was coming in to read for Hades, um uh um I forewarned everyone, I was like, it's gonna be over when this guy comes in, get ready. He's gonna bring it all. He's gonna bring the charm, he's gonna bring the mystery, he's gonna bring the elegance, he's going to bring it all, all the dimensions that you could possibly ask for, you know, uh, in an antagonist character that has to sing, and and he did, and he got the role, and he was an absolute joy to work with everyone, fell in love with him.

Uh, the young kids were just in awe of his approach to the work. And so when Julie and the Phantoms came along and and and uh we created and developed an antagonist for Cheyenne. I mean, the character was developed for him. Right. And so we just went to him. I did, and I called him up and I said, I have a role that I would love for you to do. And we sent it to him. And yeah, he was again just and and we got to spend a lot of good time with him because he's throughout the you know the majority of episodes.

[25:05] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that uh there is the thinking that should everything fall into place, you could uh take this group of people on tour in concert tours. How would you think about staging how would your staging for the concerts differ for the things that you did on screen?

[25:24] Kenny Ortega: Right. Uh, you know, we did it with High School Musical. Yeah, right. And it was very successful. You know, uh, we sold out arenas all across the United States faster than any pop group that summer and broke Madonna's merchandising records. And and and what we did was we just took, you know, uh uh um you know, we just played with some of the themes from the movie, but also enjoyed, you know, putting on a good rock and roll concert. Um and and and and it and it just worked. And um and and then I and then I got the call, and and they were they told me, you know, we we want you to go to South America, but you don't have time to do uh uh uh uh arenas, but we've been told you could sell out stadiums, you know, and and we went to South America and I had a transition now what was uh an arena show into a stadium production with video screens and and and we were playing to uh um two nights at 75,000 people in Buenos Aires and 93,000 people in in um in San Paolo, Brazil. So I've had a little of experience kind of going from movie uh to stage. And I think with Julie and the Phantoms and with technology as it is today, man, can we have a ball in what we could do there?

[26:38] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. Of course, any plans for that we'll have to wait for a while until it's safe for all of us to be in uh in a um in a concert setting. But I wonder if I'm sure you've seen a lot of theater folks are sort of turning to uh digital, recording themselves digitally for screen for these sort of creative projects. And I wonder if any of the experience you have with taking stage theatrical forms and putting them on screen might translate into any sort of advice that you might have for artists who are uh you know starting trying to think about themselves. Initially they began as theater actors and now they're thinking of themselves as sort of recording for the screen and performing for the screen.

[27:20] Kenny Ortega: I mean, just think about Damed. I mean, there's so many, so many great theater actors. I mean, Angela Lansbury, Raul Julia, Chita Rivera, Kristen Chenowith, Cheyenne Jackson. I mean, uh, there's uh Ben Platt, uh uh um I can't wait to work with Isaac Powell. I am just I'm gonna find something just for him and call him one day and say, will you please come and play this role in a film? Uh I was a theater actor. It's it's I I think it's the most natural place to find actors for film and television. I really do.

[28:00] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Yeah, it's the foundation for the a lot of the people you work with at the same time. You know, they know how to pull back. They know about dynamics, you know. You know, theater is all about dynamics.

[28:09] Kenny Ortega: Right. Right. Yeah. You know, there was a day where, you know, I remember, I mean, as a young actor myself in theater, where, you know, you didn't dare hire a theater actor to be in a film or a television show. You know, and now they're everywhere. Everywhere. You know, study hard, you know, work with a lot of people, you know, get, you know, and get into theater. Uh uh any theater. Off off, off, off in the back alley of some, just do it. And um, yeah. And any advice? Not really. I mean, I think studying with with teachers that know both film and theater techniques, good thing. Like Lynn Handman, who we just lost, who was one of the greats?

[28:52] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[28:55] Kenny Ortega: And so what's on your plate these days? You've got this show launching. Uh this episode is going to come out. The show will be launching in about a week after this uh this episode comes out. Um, and what else is on your plate?

[29:07] Kenny Ortega: Uh, I'm developing a musical for Kristen Chenoweth. I'm in Las Vegas right now, and I'm really excited because 15 years ago we did something here that had a real big impression. No, I did the Bellagio Fountains, you know, the first choreographer of the Bellagio Fountains, which is this great public theater in Las Vegas. And and and another public theater that I took part in, it's called The Lake of Dreams at the Wynn Hotel. And I just came together with the great puppet master Michael Curry and writing designer Patrick Woodruff. And we've created an all brand new outdoor living theater extravaganza, uh multimedia musical driven show uh that will be opening on the same day as Julie and the Phantoms is premiering on Netflix.

[29:49] Gordon Cox: Oh wow, okay. Have you throughout all of this and all your work in in Hollywood, have you ever thought to yourself, oh, maybe someday I might like to come back to the theater and direct and choreograph there?

[30:04] Kenny Ortega: Yes. Yes.

[30:06] Gordon Cox: And what would be the thing that would uh get you there, do you think?

[30:09] Kenny Ortega: Well, you know, I did it back in the 80s, and and I was just a little too uh uh anxious to do it. It was just the the the greatest wish of my life, you know, was and and uh I just came into a situation where we just didn't have it all there. It just wasn't there. The concept was there, the idea was there, but but it but it wasn't solid. It wasn't and and so you know what I'm good at is is lifting stuff off of a page, you know, and and and and being inspired from the page and it and and it wasn't on the page. And and so what I'd be looking for is is is a real solid book, you know, somebody coming to me not just with a really good idea or with a really good idea, but bringing in Harvey or somebody that's gonna turn it into a piece of magic as a book. Um and and then man, I would I would I would race, you know, to have an opportunity to do some musical theater.

[31:01] Gordon Cox: Are there musicals in the canon that you would like to take a crack at as a on stage as a director choreographer, or either on stage or on film as a director and choreographer?

[31:12] Kenny Ortega: Yes, but I can't mention them right now.

[31:15] Gordon Cox: Why not?

[31:15] Kenny Ortega: Are you thinking about them?

[31:17] Kenny Ortega: Because I'm because I don't want to like blow it because I'm in I'm in conversations, you know, about about some films. I must say I am so excited to see in I cannot wait for In the Heights to hit the screen. Cannot wait to see what Steven did with West Side Story. Yeah. I'm so excited about the future of musicals for film and how we're having how they're how they're back, you know. You know, uh it's so thrilling. I mean, I know that eventually Wicked is gonna come to film, and I hear the prom is now uh uh get gonna come to the to Netflix, and yeah, it's very, very exciting. And and I would love nothing more than to be able to do you know a full-on original musical.

[31:59] Gordon Cox: Well, we look forward to seeing what's next from you, both on screen and maybe on stage. We're we're looking out for it.

[32:06] Kenny Ortega: Yeah, thanks so much, Kenny. Thanks for joining me. It's been a joy.

[32:17] Gordon Cox: That was Kenny Ortega, whose new series, Julie and the Phantoms, debuts on Netflix September 10th. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, please take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. And you can subscribe and find past episodes there and on all the other pod places, including Spotify and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears. I'll be back in two weeks with another new episode. Thanks for listening and see you soon.