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[0:04] Brooke Engen: We need you on stage tonight. Go to the dressing room, one of the costumes and white. Super swing. If you can understand me speaking well, as well as anyone can if you'll watch, you said it. Goodbye. Thank you for riding the full. Sounds are coming from all around. Super swing. Same and the swing. There you are.

[0:42] Joshua Kobak: Welcome to Realto. Follow me. The show's about to start. Keep your headphones on for the most immersive experience.

[0:56] Joshua Kobak: Yay, so we are here with one of my favorite people. Do you want to tell us your name?

[1:02] Brooke Engen: My name is Brooke Engen.

[1:04] Joshua Kobak: And I have the pleasure of teaching Brooke.

[1:06] Brooke Engen: I love Brooke.

[1:07] Joshua Kobak: I'm the lucky one, you're my teacher. And uh we're so happy to have you here. I would love for you to tell us a little bit about the swing experience in your life. What shows you swing, what you have done.

[1:19] Brooke Engen: Awesome doing. Yeah, I have been lucky enough to be a part of several Broadway shows. Um I made my Broadway debut in Gypsy with Bernadette Peters, and that was as a swing. I actually came in as a what's called a vacation swing. The show had already opened. Um and then I also was in Hairspray. I started as a swing um for about six months, and then I bumped into the role of Camel and stayed in that track until the show closed. And then most recently I was in Beetlejuice. Um, and I was a swing in that company at the Winter Garden as well as the um post-COVID marquee.

[2:02] Joshua Kobak: Okay, and were you also dance captain for that?

[2:04] Brooke Engen: And I was also dance captain, yes, I was dance captain of Hairspray as well. Um I also toured with Legally Blonde. I was not a swing in that show. I had my own track and I covered um with Wyndham and Kate Chutney and Pilar. Um I also did Rock of Ages, which I started as a swing that was in the Vegas company. So I was swinging there as well, and then got bumped up into the role of Vagina, which is actually a principal track. Um, and I was the dance captain during that time as well. So it's like I've had a mix of like swinging as well as on-stage tracking.

[2:35] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. And so your first show, how did it feel jumping into Gypsy with Bernadette Peters? That must have been just a crazy experience.

[2:42] Brooke Engen: Amazing. I mean, I can't say enough wonderful things about Bernadette. She is everything you want her to be and more. Um, she's everything young performers should look up to and try to emulate. Um, yeah, that show already existed. It had opened, and um I had gotten a call to come in for a vacation swing. Um, it's actually a really fun story because I had auditioned for when the show was opening, and I didn't get the job. Um, but I got a call, being that I was in the file and I was to come to the theater, sing for the music director. They were gonna take some measurements, and that was it. That was the extent of my audition.

[3:23] Brooke Engen: So I went to the Schubert Theater and sang again and was measured and kind of like saw the space and then left and found out literally like 15 minutes later that I had gotten the job.

[3:33] Joshua Kobak: Oh wow. Well, they measured you. That's so good. That's a good sign.

[3:35] Brooke Engen: Yeah. Um, so that was the fastest I'd ever gotten it. You got the job. Um, so that was super super fun. But yeah, the show already existed, so I came in um and was taught by the current dance captain there, Pam Remler, who taught me what I was gonna do, what a swing was.

[3:54] Brooke Engen: Um, because when you're contracted as a vacation swing, you come in and you already have dates. So I already came in knowing that I was gonna go on in about two and a half weeks in a certain female's track. So that's the track that I learned first, and then from there it just was based on calendar and need as much as I was there, but I actually ended up having like a very nice long stint of being there for whether it be vacations, personal dates, uh, injury coverage. Um, I was there for a really like decent amount of time, which was really, really great. It was a great space to learn in. I was very lucky to join a very like loving cast, um, and had great swings to kind of buddy up with.

[4:40] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, because you mentioned you didn't know what a swing was.

[4:43] Brooke Engen: No idea. I didn't know how to like, you know, um document swinging or tracking of any kind. I didn't, you know, the dancing, you know, whatever you're doing on stage is like you're somewhat prepared for that. You've been singing, acting, and dancing your whole life, but it's the backstage tracking that I was like, whoa, that's a whole different ball game. Also in Gypsy, there were so many particular things that we did of like running on stage, striking this in the dark, um, and like putting up these. I remember like the stress of putting up these placards around the proscenium when they're playing different theaters. Um, so learning how to do all of that stuff, or like pretending like you're in the flies, doing the ropes and like all that stuff.

[5:24] Brooke Engen: That was that's like the gig. That is the hard part of it. Like the stand on eight and do this routine, you're a little bit prepared for. It's all the other stuff that you're like, whoa, you can only learn it on the job, honestly.

[5:39] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, and when you got that job, did you and you figure and you found out what it was? Did you think you would be good at it?

[5:45] Brooke Engen: Um that's such a great question. I maybe because I was so like eager and hungry, I was like, yes, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna excel at this, I'm gonna take everything I got, go in with confidence. Like maybe it was like blind faith, um, but I had excellent like teaching from the dance captain. I will say that I did learn really early on that I was very aware of everything that goes on around me.

[6:16] Brooke Engen: So that's what made it a very easy transition to go from like one track to the next. I could really like, especially even when I was like out watching the show from the front, how I watch the show, it still strikes me as like how I what I learned back then, how I watch the show is very much in like a photographic memory sense.

[6:36] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[6:37] Brooke Engen: And I just, you know, see it, and so then I can literally close my eyes and I see like kind of like moving chess pieces.

[6:44] Joshua Kobak: Okay, so but how do you see it? Do you see it from the point of view of the character that's on the stage or from the audience looking at it?

[6:53] Brooke Engen: Um, it's twofold. One, if I'm like obviously if I'm tracking someone in particular, someone I know I'm going on for, like, it's like a laser. I see them and they are in my eyes, they're lit completely different, and I literally follow them like a laser beam. When I'm watching a show out the gate, I I almost it almost gets a little glossy, and I see these moving parts, and it takes something to really pop.

[7:16] Brooke Engen: Then I start to like benchmark as my trackers of things. I don't know, it's very bizarre. It's kind of like hard to explain, but and I know everybody's process is different.

[7:25] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, and every that's that's why I wondered because it I for me, my first out the gate is audience perspective, and it's like on a macro level.

[7:34] Brooke Engen: Okay, okay, cool. Was it scary for you the first time? Did you think you would be good at being a swing when you first got hired?

[7:40] Brooke Engen: Let's see, when I very first got hired, I didn't know what a swing was. I was getting called to join the tour of Rent. I had to learn Roger first. They knew the guy who was playing Roger at the time was calling out frequently. And so I ended up going on for Roger and then I started the other tracks. There's only six in total. I think my process took a couple shows to really figure out what a swing was and whether or not I was actually good at it.

[8:12] Brooke Engen: Because I was so laser focused on Roger and the fact that they gave me the lead in the very beginning made me feel like, oh, okay, so my friend is actually Mark, but now he's leaving the show and the swing is getting bumped to Mark. So are they following that same pattern? Am I gonna go into Roger next? And so yeah, so I just didn't really know. It took a couple shows to figure out like whether or not I was good at it, but what really clued me in that I was good at it was that when I would be watching, I was watching pre-T, like and it is hard to explain.

[8:47] Brooke Engen: It's almost like I was meditating and pretending that I knew exactly what that person that I could see out the periphery of my eyes, the color of the shirt that the person was wearing, and who was on my right and who was on my left. And I think that helped me so that when I was in the moment, the proximity of all my other actors and set pieces and things were where I had imagined them to be.

[9:13] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[9:14] Brooke Engen: So that I totally that makes perfect sense. I also feel like, you know, like the first time you go on is obviously so informative, but it's like after you get through that, even though you know, whether it goes amazing, better than you could ever have imagined, or it could be a clunker, you know what I mean? Like you really don't know. But once you do like that first track in a show, once you get in the belly of the beast, as I say, like once you're out of it, you're like, okay, now I really know what's happening here.

[9:43] Brooke Engen: Do you know what I mean? It's like you got in the snow globe, you got shook up, and then you're like, oh, but I totally get it now.

[9:48] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, you know what I mean?

[9:49] Brooke Engen: Yeah, like yeah, you have to get inside of it. You have to have to become tangible at some point in order to feel real. Sometimes like the waiting to go on of it is like the most like agonizing part of it. You're like, I just need to experience this, and then all my questions will be answered.

[10:04] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, exactly.

[10:05] Brooke Engen: Yeah. In Hairspray, that was actually pretty quick. I had had about like six days of rehearsal, and someone was out and stage management called and said, Would you feel comfortable? Do you feel like ready to do this? And like, I did. I was like, I just wanna, I was so eager to do it.

[10:25] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[10:26] Brooke Engen: Beetlejuice took me a little bit longer. It was about um, I did I was in the out-of-town run, which is in um we did it at the National Theater in DC, and no swing went on during that. We had been slated to come to Broadway. Um, no swing had gone on, and then we came back, we went into the Winter Garden, um, one of our male swings went on right away, and then I kind of waited I wanna say it was like a month um before I finally went on and I went on in a male track.

[10:56] Joshua Kobak: Oh wow my first time.

[10:57] Brooke Engen: So it was like not what I was anticipating. Right. Um but uh so it was yeah, the waiting to go on was like, oh I'm I wanna go on, I need to experience this. It was a rake, it was like so many things that I wanted to do stage too, yeah. You know, obviously all the makeup changes, there was like so much added besides just like singing, dancing and acting. There was a lot of quick changes and makeup changes and all that stuff that I was like, oh I just wanna do this. I just need to I just need to know.

[11:25] Joshua Kobak: Well, and for that kind of stuff, do you get a put-in or do you just experience those on the in the show?

[11:31] Brooke Engen: It's been my experience that it's just been in the show. You know what I mean? Sometimes when I'm putting people in uh to the show as a dance captain, like we will try the goal is to give them a put in, obviously for the track that they're inheriting, but as a swing, swings don't typically get put ins because you have what would we put you in for per se. You know what I mean?

[11:54] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[11:54] Brooke Engen: If it falls in alignment with, hey, we're putting this person into this principal character, you're gonna go into their track for their put in. Got it. When we can like marry the two, it's like just oh happy day, and it's I love it when it works out that way, but it doesn't always go that way.

[12:09] Brooke Engen: And chances are you go to your put in in that role, and that's not the role you're first gonna be on for. You know what I mean?

[12:15] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[12:15] Brooke Engen: You're still at the whim of whoever is out is who you're on for.

[12:20] Joshua Kobak: Well, and how many tracks did you swing in Beetlejuice?

[12:23] Brooke Engen: Um like on contract, I think it was like I love that that's how it starts. Like, oh, I think it was like don't don't quote me. But I think it was like eight or ten.

[12:41] Brooke Engen: But by the time it was done, I did take on another coverage um of a principal track deal yet and I had been on for other male tracks who I am peripherally could go on for, but not like contractually set to go on for.

[12:59] Joshua Kobak: So in an extreme emergency.

[13:01] Brooke Engen: Extreme emergency.

[13:02] Joshua Kobak: Okay.

[13:03] Brooke Engen: Yeah. So that kind of runs the game of like, oh, 14, 15.

[13:07] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. Wow. That's a lot.

[13:09] Brooke Engen: It's a lot of stuff going on.

[13:10] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[13:11] Brooke Engen: Yeah.

[13:21] Brooke Engen: Super swing.

[13:28] Katy Pfaffl: Well, and explain to us, dance captain.

[13:31] Katy Pfaffl: So the people who are listening who don't know what that means, can you just tell us a little bit about what that is?

[13:36] Brooke Engen: So the dance captain is responsible for maintaining the choreographic integrity of the show as was set.

[13:44] Brooke Engen: So when your show is frozen, but as you're launching into previews, that is the show that you move forward with, and that is what is to be taught.

[13:52] Brooke Engen: Dance captains are running, being present for all of the rehearsal process of a new castmate.

[13:59] Brooke Engen: So they'll come in typically learn their music and then spend weeks at a time, like four to five hours a day getting them into what they're physically doing in the show, as well as kind of being with them, shadowing or helping working with stage management, setting that new cast member up for success backstage as to when they can track and learn all of that stuff.

[14:22] Brooke Engen: But then also as a dance captain, you have to know all of the dances stage left and stage right. Right? Like so it's it's really like a heavy lift because if you're a swing and the dance captain, that's like a whole bunch of stuff extra. You have to know like the little dances if a lead does a dance or something. You have to know that.

[14:43] Brooke Engen: Totally. Which a swing might not necessarily clear, right? Things that like you don't even cover. You're responsible for knowing.

[14:50] Brooke Engen: Yeah. Which is why in cases of emergencies is when they're often going to the dance captain and be like, could you possibly do this? I know you're not contracted for this. Let's talk about this. You know it, you teach it, you just don't physically ever do it.

[15:04] Brooke Engen: Right. Um it's lovely to be um the solution in those very um kind of like chaotic times. Um but yeah, it can be it can be a lot of you know pressure for sure, but it's you know it anyway, you teach it, and if it's right for the show and you're right for that, it it kind of just makes perfect sense.

[15:30] Brooke Engen: Yeah. Um there we went through that with in Beetlejuice at the Comeback. There was a very heavy time on Broadway 2 during the comeback when COVID was still present, obviously. Injuries still happen, eight shows a week is rough. And a rank stage is rough. You name it, so many things. And yeah, there was there was a time when we were we were down so many people, and we kind of saw the writing on the wall.

[15:53] Brooke Engen: So we kind of made a game plan, and it meant that I became a cover for something else, another female became another cover for something else, two men also became covers, and we quickly did like an emergency rehearsal, and we even we were we were down so many people that we had to cancel a show, but that night team swing, dance captain, um PSM's music team came to the theater and we worked out what show we could do the following day.

[16:21] Joshua Kobak: Wow.

[16:22] Brooke Engen: Um now how much input did you have as dance captain on how that would be solved that issue?

[16:31] Brooke Engen: Um I think I mean I feel like I was leaned on like heavily in those moments. Yeah, just as I mean it was very much a forum, like let's be real. Like pe everybody was present. We're trying to really come through with what is feasible, what is possible, what is wardrobable, what is wiggable, what is you know what I mean? It truly takes a village.

[16:52] Brooke Engen: Um, but yeah, in terms of okay, we could slot this person into here, and then I can double track with this. This person can split track into here. I mean, that type of stuff is like as a dance captain, you're kind of the keeper of the keys of that type of stuff who actually could be split tracking in those moments.

[17:11] Brooke Engen: Um you also know everyone's abilities too, because you worked with all of them too, and that's something too. You're gonna be like, This person's gonna be able to do that.

[17:19] Joshua Kobak: Totally because I've taught them and I know, yeah, whereas this person won't be able to handle that right on last minute's notice, which I think is a gift also.

[17:27] Brooke Engen: Totally, yeah. You have a lot of intel as to like who you can really rely on in those moments, um, and who like I like to say there's a handful of us that like thrive in chaos.

[17:39] Brooke Engen: And like you gotta have a couple people that thrive in chaos in your in your show, because those are the people that are like cool as a cucumber when it's like the house is on fire, yeah.

[17:39] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[17:49] Brooke Engen: Um yeah, and you kind of like have fun with it. How does that affect you in a long run?

[17:56] Brooke Engen: You know, I think I wasn't very like cognizant of that or mindful of it until like COVID came around, um, because the stakes it seemed it felt like it got so high and the pressure cooker was was there.

[18:14] Brooke Engen: Um normally up until that point I felt like oh you just go go gadget and you just do your show and like you put out little fires here and there, but with um post-COVID theater culture, yeah, you have to like it's a full-time job trying to like keep the balance of it all, and it's sometimes it takes you taking a vacation or a leave, or unfortunately, if your show closes, then you're forced to reckon you're finally able to like kind of release some of the fight or flight you've been in for however long your show has been running that you've been uh with it.

[18:50] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, um, sometimes it literally takes getting off the train to be able to like really calm down, yeah.

[18:57] Brooke Engen: Because your nervous system is going non-stop.

[19:00] Joshua Kobak: Oh yeah, she's she's kicking, yeah.

[19:02] Brooke Engen: She is kicking.

[19:03] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. I mean, just let's talk about just the anxiety attached to being a swing in the first place. What is that like for you?

[19:12] Brooke Engen: Um it's it's real. Um it's um as prepared as you are, when you enter the building, you do not know what will be asked of you.

[19:25] Brooke Engen: So I for myself, I always have to like at least do a vocal warm-up and at least do a physical warm-up before I enter the building because all it takes is one mid show swing on to learn that.

[19:38] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[19:39] Brooke Engen: And you'll never not know that again. Um that you're like, oh got it, should be warm. Okay.

[19:47] Brooke Engen: Um, you know, I mean I want to know the story. I mean what was your first mixture?

[19:54] Brooke Engen: I mean, it's the first time you get put on, either mid act one or after act one, there's a big switch out and you're going on. Right.

[20:01] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[20:01] Brooke Engen: You know, there's just you get a call from stage management or a on your door. And you're like, you already know that I'm never just they're not coming to chat, you know.

[20:13] Joshua Kobak: You're so right.

[20:14] Brooke Engen: They're not gonna show you something on their phone or Instagram. It's like so how soon do you think you could be ready?

[20:21] Brooke Engen: And so you learn how to pin curl really f fast. I have recurring stress nightmares about pin curling.

[20:27] Brooke Engen: Um fast, and it won't it won't take the bobby minute. That won't take the bobby pin. That's my refrain for the story.

[20:33] Brooke Engen: Um but no, my I think my first mid-show obviously was in um was in Beetlejuice. Um I've done like you know, act twos, but I've known halfway through act one that I'd be going on.

[20:46] Brooke Engen: It was like because there's no time to really switch out. Right Beetlejuice, you could switch out pretty quick.

[20:51] Joshua Kobak: Okay.

[20:52] Brooke Engen: Um so yeah, you just get a knock on the door and you're like, um, I could be ready by you're hearing the song that's on.

[20:59] Brooke Engen: I could probably be ready by the next number. And so you are just getting ready as fast as you can, and then you're like trying to do a couple deep squats and like uh a plank and a couple jumping jacks, and you're like, okay.

[21:11] Brooke Engen: Oh, to just get the just to like get the energy going to match everything else yeah it's a lot to like just jump on an express train.

[21:18] Joshua Kobak: Yeah so definitely yeah and when you do jump like okay so say you're doing your pink curls and you're like okay I'm getting in costume I do all this stuff are you reviewing in your head as well yeah if there's like if it's a track I haven't been on for in a while like yes I'm quickly I like pull up my notes I'm like quickly reading or if I have any clips um of like on video or anything like that any of those little it's always the small little minutiae things it's never like what are the steps like that's like a given right I will bring whatever I can to the stage and stash it and have it checking like a squirrel you're just like this is you going through stuff before you're back on stage.

[21:56] Brooke Engen: Yeah and do you give yourself a certain amount of grace for missing something in that minutia or anything or is it like of course yeah you have to oh my god you have to there first of all there is no perfection right like I'm not trying to be this person I am Brooke in this track.

[22:16] Brooke Engen: Yeah and I also like there's so many things you can't obviously compare in despair it's like I'm like a I love that that's great petite dancer going in for someone who's five seven all legs that that's that's not gonna look the same that's not gonna feel the same for my partner it's a lot of things and those are things I have zero control over.

[22:38] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[22:38] Brooke Engen: Do you know what I mean?

[22:40] Brooke Engen: Compare and despair I love that that's so good.

[22:43] Brooke Engen: That is so true though. So you just have to yeah, you do you have to grant yourself a lot of grace and also like for your nervous system, you just have to go, this is literally a moment in time.

[22:53] Brooke Engen: There will always be little things here and there that you could like beat yourself up over or that cause like a domino effect. And it's just like you just get back on when you can, and if it affects anybody else, you usually find that everyone around you is like laughing about it.

[23:09] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[23:09] Brooke Engen: You know what I mean? Nobody's like, oh my gosh, you were in the wrong spot, or like you were close to 10 and you should be 12. And then we're like, nobody is doing that because everyone's doing their own thing, and they're just like we're just looking at each other from across the way and making eyes and connecting, and it's just it can't be that deep.

[23:30] Brooke Engen: Otherwise, you'll just you'll just crack.

[23:33] Joshua Kobak: It's just oh god. I think that's an important thing to talk about just in general, is it can't be that deep.

[23:38] Brooke Engen: Like it's if you make a mistake as a performer, it's not the reflection of the summation of yourself as a human.

[23:46] Brooke Engen: You know what I mean? It's not that, it's like I made that mistake, and I will do my best to not make it tomorrow. And that's it, it can only be that deep.

[23:54] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, we are all just doing our best, right?

[23:57] Brooke Engen: Yep. Everybody showed up at 7:30 to do their best to do their Broadway show, the thing everybody dreams about doing.

[24:04] Joshua Kobak: Oh, yeah.

[24:05] Brooke Engen: Well, I remember even as someone who did a role over and over and over again, and I did the same things. I remember I would come out one night and I would be like, What are the words?

[24:15] Brooke Engen: Like, I have sung these words so many times, and it for some reason in this moment, gone, you know, like they're they're gone. And you know, all you can do is just marvel at the humanity of it all, where you're just like, and those weren't the words.

[24:33] Brooke Engen: I just sang something out of my mouth. I just made up in front of 1300 people. And totally there it is, you know.

[24:40] Joshua Kobak: And I think that that was also very humbling and and sort of enlightening for me that like you also that's just part of the process. There is no comfortable, there is no totally.

[24:56] Brooke Engen: But I think you know, especially for someone who's being shot out of a cannon and this kind of situation is a swing, there has to be grace, you know, and also there has to be uh a relationship with your anxiety, I would imagine.

[25:09] Joshua Kobak: Yes.

[25:10] Brooke Engen: To understand, like you know you're gonna have it, you and how you manage that because nerves are a really big thing for people in performing as it is.

[25:18] Brooke Engen: But then if you have that on, then you're gonna get in your head, so you can't, you don't really have time to get in your head, correct?

[25:24] Brooke Engen: You don't have time to even think about how you're feeling, right? You know what I mean? You just like you go, and um that's why sometimes those quick, you know, like you don't have time to really think about it, like physically you know your body is experiencing, but you're just so focused on what you're about to do, what you need, what do you gotta bring to the stage, fill up your water, you know what I mean?

[25:50] Joshua Kobak: Like all those things, and that's that's kind of a blessing of a yeah, because you're present, totally you're hyper present, totally you're probably more present than most of the people on the stage around you, yeah.

[26:00] Brooke Engen: Because that is your experience, and they're going through something that they've already done before.

[26:05] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, that's fascinating.

[26:07] Brooke Engen: Yeah, and when you're auditioning, are you often auditioning to be a swing, or how does that process go?

[26:13] Brooke Engen: Um, you know, sometimes I don't even know. Like, you know, obviously, if a brand comes out and it's like, oh, we're specifically looking for swings, or we're taking on a vacation swing, like, then you fully know.

[26:25] Brooke Engen: And I see my friends, and there's a lot of us who have kind of like carved out a swing, you know, avenue in this industry.

[26:33] Brooke Engen: Um, but there are times too when you're going and you think it's for swing, you're assuming it's for swing because that's what your resume predominantly has on it, but it's actually they're only just looking for their ensemble tracking and covers.

[26:48] Joshua Kobak: So it's not, yeah, I sometimes I don't always even know, but I would guess it's like I don't know, 80% I'm going in for swing.

[26:56] Brooke Engen: Interesting.

[26:57] Joshua Kobak: Tracking at this point.

[26:59] Brooke Engen: Yeah. And that and at this point, are you like, all right, yeah, I'm ready to do this.

[27:04] Brooke Engen: Like, I know how to do this. Or at this point, you're like, oh boy, here we go.

[27:09] Brooke Engen: Um at this point, I feel like I know what I'm doing, I know what I'm getting into, I know the expectation, and I know how to take care of myself.

[27:21] Brooke Engen: Um, yeah, in the swing space, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually.

[27:26] Brooke Engen: Um, but I would be lying if I didn't say I would I would love my next show to be a track.

[27:36] Brooke Engen: Uh-huh. It's it's been a while since I've had my own track, and I would love my nervous system to experience it.

[27:44] Brooke Engen: Um, but also see for myself as an actor to have that opportunity. What is it like to do the same track every night?

[27:52] Joshua Kobak: What are the pros? What are the cons? How can I be generous with swings and understudies that go on? Like I haven't been an anchor or dad in a while. So that I'm just as curious as like being back on an onstage track.

[28:10] Brooke Engen: Well, and you said there was a few shows where you started as a swing and then you got bumped up, so that must have been really an exciting experience. So you know, it's so great when that happens. It's also very rare when it happens, as you know, when you're valued as a swing, they just want to keep you in that position because it takes a lot of time to train a swing, it takes a lot of money to wardrobe a swing because they need 12 costumes versus two. Well, and also swings are incredibly gifted and talented. It's hard to find someone who is talented enough to do all those things. Yeah, yeah. So it's really like I know from a business standpoint that like if you are in a swing position, more than likely, no matter how much everybody values you, loves you, would love to see you in that particular role, the odds are that you're probably not going to move.

Um so the fact that it's happened to me has been like a total wow. Whoa, this is wild. Um, but yeah, it is so great to be in an onstage track and then be a part of the like the sw navigating of swings and understudies, and you get to be like their anchor. You know, that's like a really it's a nice space to be in, having been swing.

[29:27] Joshua Kobak: Well, I think you bring something then to being a role that most people don't with which is the awareness of how to be an anchor first.

[29:35] Brooke Engen: Totally, yeah, and how to bring that. We’ve talked a lot about that in our past few episodes about you know how swings are treated in casts and how that is, and you know, I would love to know from you what are some things that you feel like would help swings in a show from casts or creatives or audiences. What are some things that you think could make being a swing a better experience?

[30:01] Brooke Engen: Um such a good question. Um audience perspective, you know, just I mean, I feel like this whenever I go and see a show and they either make an announcement or they I see the insert in the playbill, like I am so jazzed. Every time a understudy or a swing is on, like, yes, please sign me up. Um I just think it's truly I know I use like the snow globe analogy, but it's like they're entering the snow globe, they're shaking it up, it's still as beautiful, and it's like I feel like the shows become alive in a different way. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a gem, it's a it's a once it's gonna happen this time. Totally, and you're like, I'm here for it. Yeah, and everybody in the show is adjusting, totally so not everybody's waking up, totally so like from an audience perspective, I hope everybody just always appreciates that.

Um I just think you know, it starts from the top down. I think there's been a nice shift in um recognizing when a press release comes out for a new show that they're like, and our amazing swings for the for the show will be like already giving them a shout out. Um also that you know, everybody uh ensemble wise is listed alphabetically versus cast and then a separate page for swing, which sometimes used to happen in the past. So that's huge. Um, but yeah, just in terms of like cast members and um stage management, just you know, obviously welcoming with opening open arms, that's always been my experience, but truly knowing that any time a swing or understudy is on stage, it's that it literally does shake up the show in an awesome way um and to not be too rigid into what you're doing and in your show you know our goal is to like we all got into this business because we had a sense of play like we all are essentially paid to play pretend on stage and so if that is our baseline a new way of playing should be welcomed you know I love that yeah that's if we can like if that's like our baseline I think we're golden you know what I mean.

[31:26] Brooke Engen: One of the things I wish that I would exist more backstage would be like the after the show there's an announcement everybody let's just have a little like thank you for the swings that went on or the understudies that went on and you know like just a little moment of like hey this just happened absolutely and that made our show better and let's just like acknowledge that these people just did this cool thing.

[32:59] Joshua Kobak: Yeah that was special to them.

[33:00] Brooke Engen: Totally I think if it if that even just from stage management or something you know because I feel like those little things because I you know you're right like for us if someone else went on I remember one of our I mean understudies went on for the lead and there was such a brilliant actress actor and we never got to see him really do much because he was a smaller part in the show, but we all knew he was like an amazing actor. And so he got to go on for one of the leads finally. And I remember we were at Lincoln Center and there was a VOM. And everybody that wasn't on stage at the time was in the VOM and we were just watching because we were like, this is a masterclass. Totally. Now we get to see, not that the person who was doing the role wasn't wonderful, but we just got to see a different actor do their thing.

Yeah. Right. And it was so inspiring that I remember the whole show is just like sparkly because we were all like, We love doing this. We love acting. We remember, you know, like it's just, you know, so there are those moments, and it was just because we got to see someone else bring life to something.

[33:55] Brooke Engen: Yeah, and and remind us all that we were doing that once. And you know, we have to get there. So I think there's something magic about that. But yeah, but yeah. Totally. I totally agree. We were very lucky at Beetlejuice. Our stage managers were just like chef's kiss, just the best, always giving praise after shows to understudies and swings, and like couldn't do it without you. Obviously, you know, our our our leader, Alex Brightman, too, always just leading the charge of loving on swings and understudies. And um, yeah, that was like a really, really like lovely space to be in.

[34:32] Joshua Kobak: Do you have any favorite moments that come into mind like a favorite show or favorite experience that happened to you or just a role that you got to go on that was like exciting or anything?

[34:42] Brooke Engen: Oh gosh, so many, so many. Um, I let's see. I really loved my time at Hairspray. I can still feel like in my system that like whenever I hear the overture, I still feel that in my like in my heart. Like I feel where I am backstage. We started upstage of the scrim, Tracy Thermulette is sleeping in the bed, and we're all in these this grid of a tower. Then the lights come up on us, and we're all in silhouette doing these like 60s moves. Um and I literally can remember just like being in the towers. All cast, we're all gabbing to each other high and low, up above and below each other. Overtures going on, we're like, let's do it. And then everybody just started just go right into it. And it's just like it's just a feeling I'll never get every time I come to music, it just makes me feel bad.

And I just remember it was like the happiest I've ever been every night at eight o'clock. Like I've never been happier than the minute that show started. We just it just brings up so many fond memories, and the greatest people, and all the alumni from the show, and it was just one of those shows that when it closed, all the alumni came back, and we incorporated everybody into You Can't Stop the Beat. They came down the aisles, it was so fun and so special, and yeah, so that like Hairspray to me will always be one of the like my most favorite shows I've ever done, the most special people I've ever been um in shows with, and well, I can't say every every single person I've done shows with. I really feel very very lucky.

Um but yeah, that one was a really really fun one, and like so great to swing because like you know, when hairspray like came about, like that was one of the first times I feel like on people knew who the ensemble was because everybody had a name in hairspray. So when you leave the stage, they'd be like, Brenda, Shelly, you know, they had names. It's kind of like, it's kind of what happened like when Hamilton, like the ensemble of Hamilton was like, she's the bullet. She's woman one. Like it became like a part of our language to know the ensemble and their tracking. Um so it was fun to swing here to you just because every time you went on, it was very specific who you were. And people would know that when you walked out the stage door.

[37:17] Joshua Kobak: I love that. And and so when how about the times that you were on in a in a track and you came out of the stage door, and they may not have realized that you were even on or that you were you weren't the person that was originally the rollers in my way?

[37:35] Brooke Engen: Totally. Oh my god. You'll walk on there and be like, you were great, and you're like, you weren't on. So what do you think? And I always say, Well, thank you. Yeah. Because I was there.

[37:47] Joshua Kobak: Did you ever try to tell them at the beginning, like, oh well, actually, I wasn't on?

[37:50] Brooke Engen: Sometimes I have. And then it becomes very convoluted, and they're like, you're back there and you're not on stage, and it just opens up the whole thing that I'm not sure they're ready for.

[37:59] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[37:59] Brooke Engen: So not in that moment. They just want to be like, I loved it. But they'll still be like, okay, uh, sign my playbill.

[38:06] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[38:07] Brooke Engen: Yeah. But as long as you're in the cast, totally.

[38:09] Joshua Kobak: Totally. Although I was I told them, like, I've gone to see my students and shows, and I'll go backstage through the stage door and say, you know, hello and do all the things, and then when I come out, people will be like, sign my autograph. You know, totally. And I've totally signed people's play bills. And it's not a person in that cast whatsoever. Because I'm like, in this moment, you're so excited to see me that I don't want to be like, I'm just a person.

[38:31] Brooke Engen: See, when I first started, that's what I would that's what I did. Yeah. I was just like, oh, well, no, I wasn't on tonight. Oh, and then and then I learned that this isn't about me. I don't need to explain to them. They're having a great time. Thank you is all they need. Yeah. But I'm sure they got home and they were like, Katie, like, she's not any anywhere in here.

[38:54] Joshua Kobak: It's your bio?

[38:56] Brooke Engen: Imposter.

[38:57] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[38:58] Brooke Engen: Oh my god. But those are funny.

[39:01] Joshua Kobak: Totally. And you want to share them and be a part of them.

[39:03] Brooke Engen: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I love that. Well, if you had any advice for young and upcoming swings in the world, what would you have for them?

[39:13] Joshua Kobak: Oh my goodness. What are some valuable things you learned?

[39:18] Brooke Engen: Oh gosh. Um, I guess just a lot of, you know, as we talked about, like granting yourself some grace. Um if you want to pursue swinging, I always say, like, even when you're taking dance class, when you're done taking the class, immediately try to reverse it. Whoa. That'll get you head and shoulders above above the game. Wow. Because there's a lot of times that like we won't, like in an audition for a swing, we're not gonna teach you both right and left. We're just gonna do one, and then sometimes it'll be like, can you also do it on the left? Like in that moment. So that's a skill. That's a skill for your brain and your body.

[40:01] Joshua Kobak: So you've actually done that in a audition to people.

[40:05] Brooke Engen: Yeah. I re when I when I was auditioning for hairspray, we did one thing um on the right hand side, and then they said, okay, let's do it and come in from the left. And so then you're basically just flipping, um, you're reversing your feed, coming in from left, and we just like did it on the spot. You know what I mean? Wow. Um, and yeah, it's just one of those good like brain teasers, yeah, you know. Um, so yeah, that's what I like to say to um dancers coming into this that think this might be something they want to pursue. Um, and yeah, just start to watch also shows, even shows you've seen, or if you see like there's obviously so many shows on YouTube. Um, just start to watch it and see if you could track someone.

If there's somebody that your eye is drawn to when you're watching like a performance, I say take that isolated clip or into the next one and try to track them. Try to write it down. And what would that look like for you? Because everybody tracks it differently. There's no like way to notate it perfectly. It's just like a good practice, you know what I mean. Um, that's my that's my two cents, but also just yeah, I mean, it's can be a really really fun lane and space to be in in this industry, and it's heavily needed. Um it it once you break into it, it's like there's a level of trust um that kind of comes with the territory of somebody who's done this, so they tend to continue to stay in that lane and are obviously you know trusted to join other shows in this um particular track. But yeah, I mean that that would be my two cents to you know to people that might want to do this.

[41:52] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, and I think the, you know, we've touched on this a little bit too about the, there's these myths that I think about being a swing where it's like you only swing at the beginning of your career, or Alicia brought up feeling like when she was first swinging, how she felt like it meant that she wasn't because she wasn't good enough to actually get cast in the role.

[42:12] Brooke Engen: And I think that's a lot of misconceptions about that.

[42:15] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah, or I was just thinking a little bit ago that it's some people must see it as more like in sports where like the people are on the bench, or the JV.

[42:27] Brooke Engen: Uh-huh.

[42:27] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, totally.

[42:29] Brooke Engen: Yeah, totally.

[42:30] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, I mean, and I understand why people do that. It just helps us human beings, it helps us compartmentalize how this like exists in our world.

[42:38] Brooke Engen: Right, yeah.

[42:39] Joshua Kobak: But um, I like to think of it like you're kind of like superheroes on ice. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like we're encapsulated backstage on ice, we're ready to be shot on stage. You know what I mean? Like, we can do all these things and let's keep them backstage, you know, in case the code and click launch, and then they just go.

[43:12] Brooke Engen: Totally.

[43:13] Joshua Kobak: Um, that's I mean, that's how I like to think of swings. They're like precious, you must protect them at all cost.

[43:21] Brooke Engen: But um, yes, there is a very, you know, older mentality of like you're benched, you're junior varsity, you're not good enough to be on stage. I also but I also think luckily that's like that's going away, and the more we continue to talk about swings and put them in the forefront of our press releases and you know, National Swing Day, yada yada, or even curtain call speeches about what you just saw, this person made their Broadway debut.

[43:50] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, things like that are really informative to people that don't know.

[43:54] Brooke Engen: Yeah, um, but yeah, no, I always I tell people that can sometimes get down on themselves if they've been like cast in like one of their local productions as a swing and they feel like, oh, that means I'm not good enough. It's like, no, it's because you have all of these things that cannot be contained in one track.

[44:14] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[44:15] Brooke Engen: And so therefore, we have to keep you here ready for all of it. You know, yeah, and I think you know, another way to really think about it is there's a lot of people who can play a role, but there is far fewer people who can swing. And so you're actually the most individual and the most unique in yourself, which is what we get into this business to be.

[44:40] Joshua Kobak: Totally, right?

[44:41] Brooke Engen: And so we can't lose sight of that. Like you are actually like the multi-tool for the show. And so that actually, you know, that makes you that much more special. And I think if you can think about it that way, it can become, you know, a role to step into to be proud of.

[44:59] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, right. Because everything you just said is a hundred percent true, right? And the old mentality is certainly absolutely not true, right? Because that and also don't follow that train of thought to begin with, because it will gradually take away your self-confidence and your confidence and also your ability to enjoy your experience because if you're constantly telling yourself, well, nobody cares about me and I don't matter in anything in life, totally.

[45:26] Brooke Engen: What are you gonna be? What is that experience?

[45:27] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah.

[45:29] Brooke Engen: You're just gonna have a bad experience.

[45:31] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, and a lot of times I think that starts with not that we're not receiving or not receiving feedback from people, but really we dictate the experience that we have.

[45:41] Brooke Engen: Yeah, is it's how we step in and it's how we view it.

[45:45] Joshua Kobak: Totally. The lens that we look at it. You know so I think that shifting of that lens can be really helpful.

[45:51] Brooke Engen: Yeah. You know, and also too, I think it's so wonderful now that people are stepping into roles and there's dance captains and swings like you who are mentoring and helping and teaching.

[46:05] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[46:05] Brooke Engen: You know, because I think once upon a time that wasn't the case. It was sort of just like jump in, fend for yourself.

[46:10] Joshua Kobak: Totally.

[46:11] Brooke Engen: You know, figure it out.

[46:12] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, figure it out. Good luck.

[46:14] Brooke Engen: Yeah, totally. You know? I mean, I feel like, yeah, I had, as I said before, I was very, very lucky with my Broadway debut. I had amazing dance captain and swings in that building that taught me everything. Cause I mean, truly swinging is an on-the-job learn. Period full stop. You can have different ways that you look at shows or track it, or you can reverse things, but how you're gonna be in that show completely depends on that show, you know, and how like the layout of it all.

[46:45] Joshua Kobak: Um, but you need you need someone who is like supporting you and guiding you and cheerleading you because otherwise it can be very lonely, very isolating and a miserable existence. You know what I mean? If you don't feel like you're a part of a collective, you it's impossible to thrive.

[47:08] Brooke Engen: Right.

[47:09] Joshua Kobak: Well, and I think that comes back to the ways that a company and the creatives can support swings, which is to make sure to include them.

[47:16] Brooke Engen: Yeah.

[47:16] Joshua Kobak: And not just be like, you go do your thing and get out of here, what get out of our way while we do the real show.

[47:22] Brooke Engen: Yeah.

[47:23] Joshua Kobak: Only then you need to be here and be ready to save the day when we need you.

[47:26] Brooke Engen: Right.

[47:27] Joshua Kobak: That that's how I think it's been for years.

[47:29] Brooke Engen: Totally.

[47:30] Joshua Kobak: And I think that shift of like we value you.

[47:33] Brooke Engen: Yeah.

[47:34] Joshua Kobak: Makes a big difference. And I know it can't like you know, always you know, be this way, but I that's why I'm I love it, love it, love it when shows obviously include their swings in those major milestone moments like Tony Awards, Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, like those things are huge.

[47:53] Brooke Engen: And um, I know it's a lot, I know it's money, um, but it is that's truly where like your company sets itself up to thinking we are a whole, right? And it's like if you can, if there's any way to incorporate them, like do it, even if it's the tiniest thing, the tiniest cameo, it's like so worth it.

[48:14] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. Because like it's no fun to miss out on those things. Now I get it. Those today shows in Good Morning Americas, those are very small stages. You can't add more people. We get it, but those major theatrical events, like if you can do it, like put your swings in it. It just and I think the money can, you know, it's sort of like in any job environment, it just makes me think of like those there's workers get a bonus, do you know?

[48:37] Brooke Engen: So producers can think about this is the bonus that we're giving to swings, yeah, because they're worth it.

[48:43] Joshua Kobak: Totally.

[48:43] Brooke Engen: So they get a bonus for being there.

[48:47] Joshua Kobak: Totally, right? They want to do a great job, yeah.

[48:49] Brooke Engen: Right, right. So I think that extra money and the and at the end of the day is always if you can put money into something to make it a healthy growing environment, do it. It's worth it.

[48:59] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, the whole product is gonna be better.

[49:01] Brooke Engen: The whole product will be better, yeah.

[49:03] Joshua Kobak: Big time.

[49:19] Brooke Engen: You have the a a really cool unique experience of she has a sister who is also a swing.

[49:26] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[49:27] Brooke Engen: I mean I have I have a real life twin sister. Tiffany who is also in this industry. She has toggled between she is she came in as a swing then she's been just principals for years and years and years. And then recently she's done a couple of swing contracts. And so yeah it's interesting to be back in that swing space. Obviously you know as you know when you have a role like it's lovely you're on stage every night you're doing your thing especially if you're a principal like awesome sauce.

[50:06] Joshua Kobak: But that it comes with its own you know things of like keeping it fresh but also like you're very much like am I in good vocal health am I in the best physical health? Will I give the A plus performance today? You know what I mean? And then you switch to like a swing brain where you're like yes am I physically vocally ready to do all this but what am I on for? What's the pop quiz today? You know what I mean? What am I studying?

[50:31] Brooke Engen: But yeah so she's in this too we haven't we we don't go to like we don't get called in for very much of the same thing which is very interesting for two people who look alike um but I I like that. I like that we kind of go in for different things, um, so that we don't like cancel each other out.

[50:52] Joshua Kobak: Well, it's so great that you can also share the load, like as far as on the understanding of what it is to be a swing.

[50:59] Brooke Engen: Oh, right. And to go like this was really hard or this was and to have someone know exactly how that feels because they've done it as well. Like that's that's such a cool thing. I think most people don't have.

[51:13] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[51:14] Brooke Engen: I also think that probably most everyone listening right now wants to know have you ever understudied your sister or vice versa.

[51:23] Joshua Kobak: Oddly, no. We um the only well one time wise one. Um we both did the national tour of Legally Blonde.

[51:31] Brooke Engen: Mm-hmm.

[51:32] Joshua Kobak: Tiffany played Serena. Um, and I came in as an ensemble female track who covered Pilar, Brooke and Kate Johnny. So not not Tiffany. I didn't cover Serena at all. Then in Rock of Ages, we were both in the Vegas company of Rock of Ages. She was Regina. I was a swing who covered Regina, Sherry, and Justice. So that's the one time I covered her.

[51:53] Brooke Engen: And then when she left the company because she booked Lauren in Kinky Boots in the national tour, that is when I bumped into Regina. She had just left that that track.

[52:06] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[52:07] Brooke Engen: That's the only time.

[52:07] Joshua Kobak: Well, and didn't you tell me a story about how with Legally Blonde where they said you just weren't right for the part?

[52:12] Brooke Engen: Yeah, I think she was playing. I was like, I tried to was trying to get seen for it, and the feedback one time I got was like, we don't really think she's right for it. And my agent at the time was like, But her sister's in it. And they're like Her twin sisters. But they're like, But tracking wise, we don't think she's she's right for again. There are things you don't know in the moment that they were casting for a particular track.

[52:36] Joshua Kobak: Right, right.

[52:37] Brooke Engen: That was not the track I ended up getting. Obviously, I wasn't in for that. But then later on down the line, there was a track that I was more suited for. But yes, we don't always have all the key pieces, but that's hilarious. We still giggle about like, we don't really think she's quite right for it.

[52:52] Joshua Kobak: Okay.

[52:54] Brooke Engen: But that and that was feedback, right? You didn't hear that in the room to your face.

[52:56] Joshua Kobak: Right, not to my face. That was that was feedback. And you know, we know again, we never know the circumstances. That could just be like in an email, it could be just lip service, could be just I don't have time for this. It's a no right now. Just you know what I mean.

[53:10] Brooke Engen: Right.

[53:10] Joshua Kobak: I cannot begin to imagine the stressors of casting these shows and all the boxes they need these people to check off.

[53:18] Brooke Engen: Yes.

[53:19] Joshua Kobak: But if you try, you will go crazy.

[53:21] Brooke Engen: Totally.

[53:22] Joshua Kobak: Well, I just love that you could you both exist in this industry and are forces. Both of you are like powerhouses of with what you do.

[53:30] Brooke Engen: I have the luxury of teaching them both, and I know. And you know, but what a gift to this industry that it gets the both of you. And also that that's there's a space for both of you, and I love that you're both carving this out for yourselves, and also that you have each other as a support system. That's wonderful.

[53:46] Brooke Engen: Totally. I feel like very, very lucky that I have somebody to go through this with who's in this industry that obviously gets it. We can speak shorthand and like can be very candid and unfiltered with each other, you know, about things we're going through. That is like such a luxury. I realize I'm like extremely blessed. Um, and yeah, I love that we have had like separate lanes and that we've also gotten to work together a couple times.

[54:14] Joshua Kobak: Next adventure, it would be really fun to do a show where we played twins.

[54:18] Brooke Engen: Yes, that would be very fun.

[54:20] Joshua Kobak: Yes.

[54:20] Brooke Engen: We've hopefully done that in a movie in the Hairspray movie we played twins, but other than that, we have never, never played anyone relating to each other.

[54:29] Joshua Kobak: To all casting directors and producers and creatives out there. Do you hear this?

[54:31] Brooke Engen: We're blasting it to the universe.

[54:34] Joshua Kobak: Something 20.

[54:35] Brooke Engen: Yes.

[54:35] Joshua Kobak: Well, why don't you what are your socials so everybody can find you?

[54:41] Brooke Engen: Oh, my socials on Instagram. I am at Brookhat. You can follow me there. Um, I'm also on TikTok. I don't post that much on TikTok, but it's a mutual TikTok, so it's BT Twin Time, Brooke Tiffany Twin Time.

[54:55] Joshua Kobak: Nice.

[54:56] Brooke Engen: Um, but hopefully I'll post more on TikTok. I guess that's probably should be that. Um, but yeah, you can follow me there on my website, Brookengon.com.

[55:05] Joshua Kobak: Cool.

[55:05] Brooke Engen: I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here with us and doing this. It's been so lovely.

[55:09] Brooke Engen: Oh my gosh, so great to be with both of you. Thank you.

[55:13] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah. And we will we will do this again.

[55:16] Brooke Engen: Okay.

[55:17] Joshua Kobak: You say when. I'll be there.

[55:21] Joshua Kobak: Thanks so much for staying with us all the way to the end of the episode. Make sure to tune in to our next episode in a few weeks. Check us out on Instagram at Super Swings Broadway. And if there's any super swings out there that you think we should interview, please drop into our DMs and let us know, and we will reach out to them because we want to have as many super swings out there in the spotlight as we possibly can. Thanks so much.