This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Samsung, stage manager: We need you on stage tonight.

[0:07] Unknown speaker: What?

[0:08] Samsung, stage manager: Go to dressing room 1, the costumes won't last.

[0:12] Unknown speaker: Super Swing!

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[0:26] Unknown speaker: Super Swing!

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[0:40] Unknown speaker: There you are. Welcome to Rialto.

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[0:50] Unknown speaker: Super Swing! Saving the show!

[0:57] Katy Pfaffl: Hi, I'm your host, Katy Pfaffl.

[0:59] Joshua Kobak: And I'm your co-host, Joshua Kobak. We're grateful that you're here with us to learn more about what makes a swing super.

[1:05] Sarah Sigman: Hello!

[1:07] Katy Pfaffl: Hi! Thank you so much for being with us today. You want to tell us your name?

[1:11] Sarah Sigman: Yes, my name is Sarah Sigman.

[1:13] Katy Pfaffl: And Sarah, you're currently in MJ on Broadway?

[1:16] Sarah Sigman: Yes, currently in MJ the Musical on Broadway. I'm in the ensemble, but I started out as a swing.

[1:20] Sarah Sigman: I was a swing there for two years.

[1:22] Katy Pfaffl: Two years?

[1:23] Sarah Sigman: Yes.

[1:24] Katy Pfaffl: Were you in the original cast?

[1:25] Sarah Sigman: I joined right after they opened. So, I missed the original Broadway cast album, but I made it to the Tonys.

[1:31] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, you did?

[1:32] Sarah Sigman: Yes, all the really cool first year things.

[1:34] Joshua Kobak: Awesome.

[1:35] Sarah Sigman: So, yeah, adjacent.

[1:36] Katy Pfaffl: That's awesome. So, you came in as a swing?

[1:39] Sarah Sigman: Yes. They added my track, actually, because they only had one female swing, who was also the dance captain.

[1:44] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, yeah. Especially with COVID and injuries and all that.

[1:49] Joshua Kobak: Was it riddled with COVID when you got in? Was it a lot of that, or was it more injuries?

[1:54] Sarah Sigman: It was riddled with COVID.

[1:55] Joshua Kobak: And that's why they hired you?

[1:56] Sarah Sigman: Yes. I started out as a vacation swing, actually. But then I was pretty much just there, and my agent, thank God for him, thought for me to actually have a contract.

[2:04] Sarah Sigman: Because vacation swings are a weekly contract. It's based off of weeks. But I just was never not there.

[2:11] Joshua Kobak: So, he was like, can we just get a real solid, she's a swing here.

[2:15] Sarah Sigman: This is, yeah.

[2:16] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, that's great. Did you go on a lot?

[2:18] Sarah Sigman: Oh, my God, yeah.

[2:19] Joshua Kobak: Wow.

[2:20] Sarah Sigman: I wish I had asked for the number before I came here. Because it was honestly insane. I was always on.

[2:25] Joshua Kobak: And how many?

[2:27] Sarah Sigman: I only covered three ladies.

[2:29] Joshua Kobak: Oh, okay.

[2:30] Sarah Sigman: There's only three female dance ensemble girlies.

[2:32] Katy Pfaffl: Okay. But you also cover Suzanne.

[2:35] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, that's my track now.

[2:37] Joshua Kobak: That's your track now?

[2:38] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:39] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow. From a swing to a high-powered producer.

[2:42] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, I mean, you know. Suzanne DePasse is great. But, yes, that was one of the tracks that I covered.

[2:48] Sarah Sigman: But there's only five women on stage at once, which is wild. The other two are the mom and the reporter. So, yeah, the three dance circle ladies.

[2:55] Joshua Kobak: Well, this is really cool, because we've never really gotten to talk to somebody who started as a swing and then was able to move up into a role and stay in the show currently. So, what was that process for you? Did you audition again?

[3:06] Sarah Sigman: No. So, funny enough, I guess, sidebar, going back to my first audition, I sent in a self-tape. Actually, I auditioned for the workshop before it was even titled. It was just like, untitled MJ, Michael Jackson musical.

[3:20] Sarah Sigman: Never danced worse, honestly. I was like, what is this? We're doing floor work? I wasn't expecting any of this.

[3:26] Sarah Sigman: And then fast forward a couple years, I get a self-tape while I'm at the beauty doing On Your Feet. And I sent it in. And they're like, great, can you come back? And I was like, sure.

[3:38] Sarah Sigman: So I came back. Luckily, I was back in the city the next week. There were maybe two groups of 15 to 20 girlies. And then the next day, there was only four of us.

[3:47] Sarah Sigman: And then my friend, we got out of that studio after the callbacks and everything. She got a call.

[3:53] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[3:54] Sarah Sigman: And so I was like, oh my god. It was fine, because we're friends. And honestly, I knew the other three girlies. I knew them pretty well. So yeah, and it was her birthday and everything. So that was really fierce.

[4:04] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, that's cool.

[4:05] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, it was so cool. It was a great birthday present. And I ended up going on to do Beautiful.

[4:11] Joshua Kobak: The first national?

[4:13] Sarah Sigman: Year 6.

[4:14] Joshua Kobak: Oh.

[4:15] Sarah Sigman: Year 6.

[4:16] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, okay. So that's a different vibe.

[4:19] Sarah Sigman: Yes, completely different vibe. Like, barely any dancing in Beautiful.

[4:22] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[4:23] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[4:24] Sarah Sigman: But our first day, we had the same first day as MJ.

[4:28] Joshua Kobak: Oh, okay.

[4:29] Sarah Sigman: So then I saw Christopher Wilde in an elevator going up.

[4:36] Sarah Sigman: Oh my god, it's you. Congratulations.

[4:38] Joshua Kobak: Thank you.

[4:41] Sarah Sigman: What are you here for?

[4:42] Christopher Wilde: Oh, I'm doing Beautiful. First day is today as well.

[4:46] Sarah Sigman: Anyway, we all had the same lunch breaks. My friend, like, introduced me to everybody in the cast. Like, it was such a weird, like, overlap, you know?

[4:53] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, and it was like, whoa, she just fits in so well.

[4:56] Sarah Sigman: Right? I don't think anybody thought that, either.

[4:59] Joshua Kobak: You're like, I thought that.

[5:00] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, I was like, I think maybe I would.

[5:02] Joshua Kobak: Right? Maybe I'll just hop on over to that room.

[5:06] Sarah Sigman: So we ended up leaving, going on tour. They ended up, you know, having previews, tech, whatever, opening. And then I didn't audition again. Like, that was the last time they saw me.

[5:15] Sarah Sigman: And my agent called me literally six months later after I had auditioned. I was on the bus, on the way somewhere with my Beautiful cast. He was like, hey, do you want to be a swing with MJ? And I said, what?

[5:28] Sarah Sigman: Like, that's just an offer. Just an offer. Literally just an offer.

[5:30] Joshua Kobak: What? That's amazing.

[5:33] Sarah Sigman: And I said, sure. I said, wow. What? Okay, absolutely. I'll put in my four weeks. So that's how that ended up happening.

[5:42] Sarah Sigman: I didn't actually have to audition again after being a swing. I mean, I kind of did at one point because when I was still a vacation swing, the Suzanne track had a leave of absence. And so I was like, in my head, I didn't really know what a vacation swing was because I'd never done it.

[6:00] Sarah Sigman: Right? When I tell y'all, I literally, two of my friends actually texted me and they saw her breakdown on Actors Access. They were like, are you going somewhere? Because I guess they thought that was my job or something. I said, no.

[6:14] Sarah Sigman: That's so odd. I didn't even know she was taking a leave. So then I asked our PSM at the time. I was like, hey, is there a reason why I'm not covering this leave of absence? I am a vacation swing. I'm technically not scheduled. And also I figured I would cover, oh, and even vacations.

[6:30] Sarah Sigman: With the vacations that were happening, I assumed that I would just be on. Right. Because the title is vacation swing.

[6:38] Sarah Sigman: Oh, my God. I literally was in the office not understanding. And she was like, oh, well, I can see where that would be misleading. You just have to be in the building as coverage. But we like you and we like the way that you dance. And you'll probably get on stage time for these vacations or whatever.

[6:55] Sarah Sigman: But I was like, this makes no sense. I'm here. I know the track. Like, I've done this track the most. Can I be considered? Oh, can you sing?

[7:09] Joshua Kobak: Like, what?

[7:10] Sarah Sigman: Thank God I had other stage manager friends. Oh, cool. And they were like, yeah, Sarah can sing. For sure.

[7:17] Sarah Sigman: So she was like, oh, okay. Well, like, I'll talk to the team or whatever. I got an email from my agent that said, hey, you have an appointment for MJ the musical. I said, not the show I'm already in.

[7:28] Sarah Sigman: That's why I asked. I said, wait, this is how that works. I had no idea. Yeah. And I literally was like, not. I'm going to Pearl. Like, I'm literally going to Pearl with my head. Like, what? Like, you're one of my co-workers. This is crazy to me.

[7:41] Sarah Sigman: But anyway, I told my parents about the whole situation. Again, sidebar. My parents were in the industry for a long time.

[7:47] Joshua Kobak: Oh, okay.

[7:48] Sarah Sigman: Yes. It helps a lot.

[7:50] Joshua Kobak: Yes.

[7:51] Sarah Sigman: They met doing Dreamgirls. I was born on a Cats tour. Like, it's amazing.

[7:54] Joshua Kobak: So it's in your blood.

[7:55] Sarah Sigman: It's in the blood.

[7:56] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[7:57] Sarah Sigman: And my mom said, she was like, yeah. I mean, I was standing by for Grizz. And I wanted the track. It opened up. And they made me come back in.

[8:04] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[8:05] Sarah Sigman: And I was like, to audition? Like, it was blowing my mind. It really is crazy. It happens, I guess.

[8:09] Joshua Kobak: But you walked in, and you were like, hi, my name's Sarah.

[8:11] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[8:12] Sarah Sigman: Let me tell you. Wait, make sure to pause. Make sure to write it right. Hi, my name is, pause. I did walk in, though, to the holding room, because they were seeing other people. And I knew everybody in there. And they were like, what are you doing here? You're in the show. And I was like, y'all, I'm going to tell you about it later. It's fine.

[8:27] Sarah Sigman: And I did it. Look. They wanted to keep me as a swing. Yeah. We ended up getting an incredible temporary replacement. Love her down. But yeah, it was definitely like a, damn, okay. Got it. It's fine. It's okay.

[8:42] Joshua Kobak: Things happen like this.

[8:44] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. Everything happened the way it was supposed to. Being a swing taught me so much. And I feel like, literally, you're just in the trenches with your other swing people.

[8:53] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[8:54] Sarah Sigman: And like, yeah, it was honestly equal parts as amazing as it was terrifying. You know? Like, yeah. And I'm glad that I went through all of that.

[9:03] Katy Pfaffl: Uh-huh. So in those two and a half years, you said three dancers?

[9:08] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[9:09] Katy Pfaffl: And so I'm assuming that each dancer, you might be doing the same thing, but stage right or stage left.

[9:14] Sarah Sigman: Right.

[9:15] Joshua Kobak: So you're reversing something.

[9:16] Sarah Sigman: Correct.

[9:17] Katy Pfaffl: Did they have to engage? So you had some costume stuff.

[9:20] Sarah Sigman: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us about the costume stuff.

[9:23] Sarah Sigman: I mean, it wasn't—you always run out of time. Like, I heard somebody say, like, making a show, you're never done. Like, you literally just run out of time, and that's it.

[9:31] Sarah Sigman: But they just didn't really have my, like, plot together yet. So it was kind of just, like, picked for me. I have, again, different costume now. Love it. So cute. High neck, like, back open. It's gorgeous.

[9:43] Joshua Kobak: But we—you know, it took us a minute.

[9:44] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, it did. It took us a minute.

[9:46] Katy Pfaffl: So when—how did you eventually get this role? Did they just come back to you at some point and say, hey, we want you?

[9:53] Sarah Sigman: Like, in terms of the onstage, like, ensemble?

[9:55] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah.

[9:56] Sarah Sigman: So there were a couple leave of absences that our original girlie took. And both—I think it was two. Both times, they ended up outsourcing. And the second time, I did not know that they—that there was even a leave of absence to be taken and that they found somebody.

[10:10] Sarah Sigman: And I said, again? Like, how do I not know these things? How do I not know these things? And also, like, y'all, like, I just want to—I just want to be up on track. And they know that. Like, I've sent them a lot of—you really have to advocate for yourself, you know, in all aspects of this career. All aspects. But especially as a swing.

[10:26] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[10:27] Sarah Sigman: And especially—you know. Yeah. You know. But I was just like, okay, it's never going to happen. It's fine. I'm going to just do my job. I do it well. Like, maybe it's an I'm-too-valuable thing. I know too much.

[10:39] Joshua Kobak: Sure.

[10:40] Sarah Sigman: Fine. Because we know that that's a thing.

[10:43] Joshua Kobak: That's a thing.

[10:44] Sarah Sigman: And, like, it's okay. Yeah. And if you're a good swing—we've talked about this in several other episodes—you know, you are the most valuable. Because it's easier to get somebody to just do one role than it is to get somebody who can do many.

[10:54] Joshua Kobak: A bunch.

[10:55] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. And as a casting director, too, it's like, oh, this person has done many roles at a time over these many shows.

[11:01] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[11:02] Sarah Sigman: Just give that part to them.

[11:03] Joshua Kobak: For sure.

[11:04] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. They're going to be able to handle it. Check that box.

[11:07] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. Absolutely.

[11:09] Sarah Sigman: And, like, I totally get that. And it's—but it—honestly, in my head, I was like, I don't want to be in this swing box forever.

[11:13] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[11:15] Sarah Sigman: And I've had, like, mentors and things that have been like, don't put swing on your resume because somebody's going to see it and be like, oh, she can do this. And she's done it multiple times. And I'm like, you're right. But, like, also, you want to have something on your resume?

[11:26] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[11:27] Sarah Sigman: Right. So I'm, like, thinking, I'm done. Like, I didn't even think that it would—the opportunity would present itself again. But our, like, original girlie is—was leaving. Like, she was like, I'm done. I'm good. Like, love y'all.

[11:41] Sarah Sigman: And I—I knew that she was leaving, but I didn't think that they would, like, offer me the track. But then our producer called me one day. I was like, oh, my God. Like, what?

[11:49] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[11:50] Sarah Sigman: Because that's not normal.

[11:52] Joshua Kobak: That's not normal.

[11:53] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. Just talk about that. It's not normal. It's like, you don't have much direct contact with a producer.

[11:57] Joshua Kobak: That's very true.

[11:58] Sarah Sigman: They come and talk to a cast. They do.

[12:00] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[12:01] Sarah Sigman: Right. But not usually to you.

[12:03] Joshua Kobak: Yeah. I will say coming in, like, as soon as I did, like, as early as I did, she was very—she's still very hands-on, but she was very hands-on, and she gave us all her personal phone number.

[12:11] Sarah Sigman: Oh, wow. That's amazing.

[12:13] Joshua Kobak: That is so sweet.

[12:16] Sarah Sigman: She's so great. So sweet. Yeah. She basically called me, and I was like, oh my gosh. It's not like we call each other. We're like, hey, girl. Like—

[12:22] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[12:24] Sarah Sigman: But she was like, hey, I just wanted to see if you were interested in taking on the ensemble track. I just, like, had not thought about it in so long. So I was kind of like, yeesh. Like, what is this gonna—

[12:34] Sarah Sigman: How does it change? How is this gonna change, like, my every day? Because, like, even though I am on a lot, like, I still get to come order my food, watch Netflix during the show, get my paycheck that is potentially more than, like, an ensemble track might be, you know?

[12:50] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[12:51] Sarah Sigman: Yep. So I was like, ah, like, let me think about it. Like, I'm gonna get back to you. Let me talk to my people. I'm definitely gonna think about it. Took a while to think about it, talk to my parents, talk to my agent, you know? And, like, we're like, you know what? No. Like, I have wanted this for a long time.

[13:06] Sarah Sigman: And, like, even though it came way later than I thought it was going to, this might be part of the journey, too. And I—

[13:11] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[13:12] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. The anxiety. When I tell y'all—all-time low.

[13:15] Joshua Kobak: Oh, my God. Isn't it great?

[13:17] Sarah Sigman: Like, all-time low. Just, like, sit in your own track.

[13:19] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[13:20] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. It's so funny. Yeah. And I was gonna ask you, too, like, do you think that being—because this will tie in.

[13:28] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[13:29] Sarah Sigman: Do you think that being a dancer's swing is different or harder or easier than being an actor or a singer's swing?

[13:34] Sarah Sigman: Oh, I think it's—I think it's harder.

[13:38] Joshua Kobak: I agree.

[13:40] Sarah Sigman: That being said, now that you're in your ensemble track—

[13:43] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[13:44] Sarah Sigman: Have you been going to the gym less? Or taking less dance classes?

[13:46] Sarah Sigman: I will say—uh-huh. Does it affect—how does it affect?

[13:50] Joshua Kobak: That's a great question.

[13:51] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, because it affects your life in that way.

[13:52] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. It definitely does. I haven't been to the gym probably since I became, like, a contracted swing.

[14:01] Joshua Kobak: Oh, yeah?

[14:02] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. Well, because you were also a dancer.

[14:04] Sarah Sigman: Because the show is a workout. The show is two and a half hours of cardio for us. Like, we're literally always on stage. So, yeah, I think that I've definitely—class and gym and physical activity has taken a back seat. With this show, even if we're giving 80 percent, like, we're giving 100 percent. It feels—

[14:21] Joshua Kobak: It's demanding.

[14:22] Sarah Sigman: Demands that. It does. Energetically. And it's so fulfilling and fun that like you want to, so I feel like I am giving a lot all the time. But yeah, it is, it's definitely hard. So you got to sit out the house and watch it too.

[14:36] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah. Oh yeah. What is it like sonically, what's the difference being on stage and being in the house listening to MJ, especially because the sound, you guys won a Tony for the sound.

[14:46] Sarah Sigman: Yes, we did. Yeah, the sound is excellent. You can feel it in your bones. It's the way you need to hear this music. If it was anything less than that, it would just be so sorely disappointing. It's so great.

[14:59] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah. So are you getting all the stuff you need when you're on stage sonically?

[15:03] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. I don't think so. It feels very different. Yeah, it feels very different. Like sitting in the sound booth is like where I feel like a lot of the swings sit and like watch or you know. It's so different than like what we hear on stage.

[15:14] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah. And like sometimes I feel like I'm like art. Spoiler, we have sweeteners.

[15:19] Sarah Sigman: Uh-huh. I mean a lot of stuff. Do you want to explain to people what a sweetener is? Because I don't think that people know that this is a thing.

[15:25] Sarah Sigman: Absolutely. Sweeteners are like, we recorded vocal tracks in advance and they play while we're singing. We're still singing, but like they help us create a fuller sound. Because you're dancing.

[15:34] Katy Pfaffl: Because we're dancing a lot. Yeah. And we honestly, I think we could have more sweeteners. One in particular is one of the Easterns. Like we don't have sweeteners for that one, which is crazy because we're running around the stage doing a higher number.

[15:49] Sarah Sigman: So when I was down, and also because I love who's on, like Callie Mae Grinder. Uh-huh. When I play, she has that soprano line on lock and I can always hear her and so I'm always trying to match her. But sometimes if she's not on, I don't hear it. If it's not me, like I can hear myself back. But I'm like, is anybody singing? Like where are my background singers? I don't know.

[16:11] Katy Pfaffl: But it's definitely, it's weird. I mean I can always hear her, but I love her.

[16:17] Sarah Sigman: It's like a weird balance. But you lose it. It's like a loss you have to face.

[16:21] Katy Pfaffl: It so is. One of the things that I work on a lot with my Broadway students is trusting how loud you sing.

[16:29] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. Trusting that there's a limit.

[16:32] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah. Oh my god. Because you over-sing, right? Because you're trying to hear yourself or you're trying to sing over the orchestra or whatever.

[16:38] Sarah Sigman: Thank you for saying that. It's like getting to the place where you know what it feels like in your body to sing at the level that you should be singing and learning how to trust that. Not based on your ears, but based on the feeling in your body.

[16:48] Katy Pfaffl: And that's such a common thing. And you can't know that until, because every stage is different. Every theater is different. Every show is different. So it's just something that is like a weird thing. You sort of are just lost in space.

[17:00] Sarah Sigman: So much of it is trust, right? And I think bringing it back to being a swing, that must be even crazier.

[17:07] Katy Pfaffl: I don't ever get to do this.

[17:10] Sarah Sigman: Exactly. I don't know what normal is.

[17:11] Katy Pfaffl: That part, that is so true.

[17:14] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. So your first time going on, let's go back to that moment.

[17:19] Katy Pfaffl: Because I think that's a very powerful moment.

[17:22] Sarah Sigman: As a swing?

[17:23] Katy Pfaffl: As a swing. First time going on, you said you didn't get a put-in.

[17:26] Sarah Sigman: Did not get a put-in.

[17:28] Katy Pfaffl: Okay. So take us through that experience, that day, that show.

[17:32] Sarah Sigman: That day, and I had a feeling. So the Suzanne track had COVID, I think. And our other female swing dance captain, I was watching her because we had a monitor in our room. Because I shared a room with the dance captain. And I was kind of watching, and I was like, she looks like she's not gay. Like, is she all right? Is today...

[17:55] Katy Pfaffl: The day?

[17:56] Sarah Sigman: Is today the day? Am I about to go on at intermission, starting with Smooth Criminal?

[18:08] Katy Pfaffl: Am I about to go on at intermission, starting with Smooth Criminal?

[18:11] Sarah Sigman: Like, I don't know. Wow. Wow. Oh my gosh. And I was just watching her, and I was like, please be okay, Camille. Like, I'm rooting for you. And she came back in, and I was like, you good? And she was like, I'll be okay. Tomorrow's the day. It's definitely tomorrow.

[18:26] Sarah Sigman: So I went home. They don't let... We have these two Kindles that have opening night on them. They don't let you take them home. But when I tell you, every chance I got, I had my phone recording the Kindle. So I could go home and make sure that I knew where I was supposed to go, what I was supposed to do.

[18:45] Sarah Sigman: And I felt like... I mean, I was kind of doing that a lot, because they throw a lot at you in a very short amount of time. So after I learned something one day, that night I would record it. And then I would go home, and I'd be like...

[18:58] Katy Pfaffl: Off of the Kindle?

[18:59] Sarah Sigman: Or off of...

[19:00] Sarah Sigman: Off the show.

[19:01] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, watching from her side.

[19:03] Sarah Sigman: So I feel like it was them teaching it to me, and me not retaining it. And me going home and re-teaching it to myself.

[19:10] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[19:11] Sarah Sigman: Because there's so much stimuli when you're in it. There's so much. And you've got to be prepared for the moment that you're in front of the lights. When people paid money to look at you.

[19:21] Katy Pfaffl: To see you.

[19:22] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. And everyone else is relying on you. There's such a difference between learning something in a book or in your notes, and then actually staying there and doing it. That's why put-ins are so valuable.

[19:34] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my gosh, because you'll never get the chance to know what it's like with the lights, and with the sound elements.

[19:39] Sarah Sigman: And with everybody else on stage around you.

[19:41] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my gosh. And plus joining...

[19:43] Sarah Sigman: And I also joined alone. Nobody else came in with me.

[19:47] Katy Pfaffl: So it was just me and our dance captain, or me and our associate in a studio doing it. And then they'd be like, you're going to follow Ryan.

[19:55] Sarah Sigman: Who's Ryan? I don't even know these people. Tell me what they're wearing. Follow the red vest.

[20:01] Sarah Sigman: But you know what's really crazy is that all the swings have different plots. So even if I'm supposed to follow gray pants, that person might not be wearing gray pants. If it's a swing.

[20:11] Katy Pfaffl: When I tell you, it's so confusing.

[20:13] Sarah Sigman: That is wild.

[20:15] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my God. And then Thriller, so we hint at Thriller and Wannabe. We do Thriller again. Spoiler alert.

[20:22] Sarah Sigman: Later. We have masks on. When I tell you, I didn't know who was who until maybe last year.

[20:27] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my God.

[20:28] Sarah Sigman: I had no idea who was who. I was just like, okay, I'm going to follow this. Hopefully this is the right person. Because I can't, first of all, I can't see. I can't see. And then I'm like, I don't even know who you are.

[20:39] Katy Pfaffl: So when you're saying following, so you weren't at the front of the stage.

[20:45] Sarah Sigman: No, thank God.

[20:46] Katy Pfaffl: So you can see.

[20:47] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, there's different points where, I will say the Suzanne track is, learning it, I was like, okay, when in doubt, just go to the center. Because she's always front and center for a lot of things.

[20:58] Katy Pfaffl: That's easier.

[20:59] Sarah Sigman: In that aspect, yeah, it is easier. And it's also like, oh, we're like.

[21:08] Katy Pfaffl: It kind of depends on the number though.

[21:09] Sarah Sigman: Because I feel like every ensemble person has a moment to shine. I feel like Thriller, at least, I wasn't, I don't really have that many things where it's just me. There's not really a moment for that.

[21:22] Katy Pfaffl: So I think when I was learning it the first time in that track, I was basing it off of other people.

[21:28] Sarah Sigman: But yeah, it is hard when you don't know who's who. Or what the costumes are.

[21:32] Katy Pfaffl: I also wondered, because some people, some listeners don't know that there are numbers across the front of the stage too.

[21:39] Sarah Sigman: Oh yeah, there are numbers.

[21:40] Katy Pfaffl: So that's another way that you can keep yourself.

[21:42] Sarah Sigman: And spikes. That you can keep yourself in the right place. So I wondered, since you hadn't mentioned those, are you, is it just choreographed that way?

[21:51] Sarah Sigman: Or is that just how?

[21:52] Katy Pfaffl: I think that's just how I think of it.

[21:53] Sarah Sigman: Got it.

[21:54] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, personally, I wasn't a numbers girlie when I joined this show. I've never been a numbers girlie. I'm very spatially aware as a dancer. I'm like, I can tell where I'm supposed to, if there's a hole, I'm gonna fill it in.

[22:02] Katy Pfaffl: You know?

[22:03] Sarah Sigman: Honestly, that's more valuable. And that's also a skill that you brought to being a swing that is really necessary. It's an asset also to the company.

[22:10] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're just gonna go where it feels right and you know what the picture is supposed to look like. So you're gonna make it look like that. Even if you happen to be on two when you should be on four.

[22:22] Sarah Sigman: For sure. The whole formation's over here. This is where I'm gonna go.

[22:25] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly. And sometimes, sidebar as well, the things that happen at night are not the things that sometimes are taught during the day.

[22:33] Sarah Sigman: 100%.

[22:34] Katy Pfaffl: 100%. Yep.

[22:36] Sarah Sigman: It depends. Now I feel like we've solidified a lot more. It's more of a through line, but I feel like when I joined, the swings were learning things based off of like an opening night video or something that what's set but it's not exactly the same as the cast that does it at night.

[22:50] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[22:51] Sarah Sigman: So you just have to be very aware and be like, oh, this person's actually not on the number that I thought they were supposed to be on.

[22:57] Katy Pfaffl: And shows do evolve.

[22:58] Sarah Sigman: The show being set is more a description for the score, the lighting, the sound design. It's more for the designers, less for the actors.

[23:06] Katy Pfaffl: I will say we re-teched.

[23:07] Sarah Sigman: You did?

[23:08] Katy Pfaffl: Sure as hell did.

[23:09] Sarah Sigman: Wow.

[23:10] Katy Pfaffl: We did.

[23:12] Sarah Sigman: Yes, this was like

[23:13] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[23:14] Sarah Sigman: This was a year ago.

[23:15] Katy Pfaffl: I've never heard of that.

[23:16] Sarah Sigman: Same.

[23:17] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[23:18] Sarah Sigman: I really hadn't either. So we did, like I, again, very grateful to have come in when I did. Like I was like learning it from the same people that the original cast learned it from.

[23:30] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[23:31] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. I was very close to like the origination of it. Now that it's like moved on, now that we have more companies opening, like our creative team went and did the national tour and were invited to their last rehearsal before they left.

[23:45] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, cool.

[23:46] Sarah Sigman: And we were all watching like that's different.

[23:48] Katy Pfaffl: What's yours?

[23:49] Sarah Sigman: This is different choreo.

[23:50] Katy Pfaffl: Different choreo.

[23:51] Sarah Sigman: Right.

[23:52] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[23:53] Sarah Sigman: And we changed a lot of light cues.

[23:55] Katy Pfaffl: Well, it's like they said it was you guys and then they like worked it out and figured out the tweaks and made it better.

[24:01] Sarah Sigman: Let's bring it back to Broadway.

[24:02] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[24:03] Sarah Sigman: Meanwhile, it's like the original cast is like you know, we're the original cast.

[24:08] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[24:09] Sarah Sigman: But I mean, you know, it's, yeah, it changed a lot of stuff. And they keep adding things and I'm just like what are they?

[24:17] Katy Pfaffl: Adding moves?

[24:18] Sarah Sigman: Or?

[24:19] Katy Pfaffl: I would say like now it's more cleaning and like clarifying. But some of them are changes.

[24:25] Katy Pfaffl: Like when you did go on that first time.

[24:27] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[24:29] Katy Pfaffl: Did you find out that morning?

[24:31] Sarah Sigman: That next day? They called me and I was like, oh my God.

[24:34] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my God. What's gonna, like, I don't even think I tried on a wig yet.

[24:41] Sarah Sigman: Wow. Yeah. They even said, it was so funny. They were like, yeah, we have your wig from Hamilton. And I was like, never been in Hamilton. But, like, thank you.

[24:54] Katy Pfaffl: Was that a different dimension?

[24:56] Sarah Sigman: No idea. I guess, maybe me in a past life. No, so I was like, okay, work. Like, it's not mine, but I love it. We're gonna, we're gonna rock whatever this is for the whole show.

[25:10] Sarah Sigman: It actually, like, really looks like my hair. But, yeah, oh my God, our hair department is so good. Oh, I love them so much. But, yeah, that first time, I was just like, okay, I don't know what this, what's gonna happen.

[25:27] Katy Pfaffl: Was it, was it excitement? Was it panic? Was it both?

[25:31] Sarah Sigman: Both. For sure, both. Yeah. Just cause, and also, they didn't finish teaching me the show. So, I was like, I don't know what to do. And it's, mine is, so you have a giant prop that could roll off stage or run into someone or you might grab the wrong one.

[25:48] Katy Pfaffl: Correct.

[25:49] Sarah Sigman: Don't even get me started with the human nature letters.

[25:51] Katy Pfaffl: Please get me started.

[25:52] Sarah Sigman: The human nature letters, we make a Hollywood sign.

[25:54] Katy Pfaffl: Oh God, oh no.

[25:56] Sarah Sigman: Oh please, what did it say?

[25:58] Katy Pfaffl: No, literally, thank God it wasn't me. I've never messed it up before, but I've seen it messed up.

[26:03] Sarah Sigman: Has it?

[26:04] Katy Pfaffl: I was like, oh my God, oh my God, I've seen it messed up.

[26:09] Sarah Sigman: Has it?

[26:10] Katy Pfaffl: I was like, who, who in charge of that letter?

[26:13] Sarah Sigman: Yes, like the amount of things that have gone wrong.

[26:15] Katy Pfaffl: That is terrifying.

[26:17] Sarah Sigman: That's so terrifying.

[26:18] Katy Pfaffl: It's so terrifying.

[26:19] Sarah Sigman: So what do you do when you get to the theater and you haven't really been taught? Do they teach you the rest of the show then?

[26:24] Sarah Sigman: No, I don't think that they realize.

[26:26] Katy Pfaffl: Didn't they walk you through to five?

[26:27] Sarah Sigman: I don't know if they realized that I'd never done finale. I think I'd been taught it, but I'd never done it with people.

[26:31] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[26:32] Sarah Sigman: So, my friend that I auditioned with that booked it that time, Michelle, she ended up, and I was so lost and I did not know where to go. When I tell you, it's like a lot of improv. She grabbed my hands, moved me to where I was supposed to be, put me there, and I was like, thank you.

[26:46] Sarah Sigman: And then we started the choreo, but I was like, this is so terrifying. I think it was just like, I knew that I had to just go with the flow and like whatever happens, happens.

[27:01] Katy Pfaffl: And I'm such a perfectionist that I wanted it to be perfect, but I knew it, there's no way that it was going to be.

[27:06] Sarah Sigman: No, no.

[27:07] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, good.

[27:08] Sarah Sigman: But I think that, yeah, okay, yeah, until the very end. When I tell you, I was like a half count ahead, the entire finale, because I was so like, glad that I finished, but like, like nervous.

[27:15] Katy Pfaffl: It was like your anxiety.

[27:16] Sarah Sigman: My anxiety.

[27:17] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah. And my, I only told like two people that I was going on that day, that I was, and it was like my two best friends, only told them, they came and like got a video of this.

[27:26] Sarah Sigman: It was so bad, like watching it back, I'm like, oh my God, I look like I've never danced before. But, but I was just glad that like, I did it, like that was it. It was fine. It wasn't the best.

[27:37] Katy Pfaffl: Well, you lived.

[27:39] Sarah Sigman: I lived to tell the tale.

[27:40] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[27:41] Sarah Sigman: But then, so what happened the next time you did the same track? Did you have to do it again?

[27:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, I did.

[27:46] Sarah Sigman: That night? Like was this a matinee?

[27:50] Katy Pfaffl: It was a, was it a matinee? I feel like it was.

[27:52] Sarah Sigman: I feel like it was a matinee.

[27:54] Katy Pfaffl: Good.

[27:55] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. I mean, it's good that, it's always good to go on more than once in a track. I think I did it that night too, and I ended up doing her whole like COVID leave.

[28:02] Katy Pfaffl: So I got a lot of reps and I was like, oh, I see where I'm supposed to be. Like, I, this makes more sense now.

[28:09] Katy Pfaffl: And then you started to not have the blackout performance, right?

[28:11] Sarah Sigman: Yes.

[28:13] Katy Pfaffl: You started to remember.

[28:14] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[28:17] Sarah Sigman: In the beginning, like my track hits the first pose, and ironically it was the first track that I had ever debuted with as a track that I'm in now, but oh my God, I was so nervous.

[28:23] Katy Pfaffl: The moment I start the poses and everybody else like joins me.

[28:26] Sarah Sigman: Oh my God, it was so nerve wracking.

[28:28] Katy Pfaffl: So take us to the moment right before that when you're on stage.

[28:31] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[28:33] Katy Pfaffl: Are you walking out in a blackout?

[28:34] Sarah Sigman: No, so we have a prologue. We're stretching. So like, it's kind of like, you're on stage already.

[28:40] Sarah Sigman: Yes, getting acclimated to the space.

[28:45] Sarah Sigman: We're all Michael Jackson's dancers in the Dangerous Tour. Getting ready for the tour. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of times we're not really acting, we're really just ourselves in the space. Yeah, hanging out with people. Yeah, and like, the backup singers, we used to all, depending on the day or whatever was going on, backup singers are... I guess their blocking is to hold hands and pray before we start. But when I tell y'all, every day I would always go back there with them. Literally, I'd be like, I need Jesus. Since then, we've gotten notes that it should just be the backup singers. The way that I am praying while I'm stretching, I'm like, y'all, please. Oh, Jesus, be a kneecap. But yeah, right before it, I was like, oh my God, okay.

It's gonna happen, and it's gonna be fine. And nobody else in the audience knows that this is your first time doing it. Well, they probably do, because there's probably an interview where they say, welcome to the company, and put my face on it. But yeah, I don't know. I think it was just, my heart was just pounding. And you know when your head pounds too? And your ears. Yes, your ears are like, it's pounding, and you can just feel it in your whole body. Oh my God, yeah. It's okay if you mess up the choreography. We're in a rehearsal space. Because there's also choreographed mess-ups in the show. Because you're in rehearsal, and also it keeps it real. It keeps it real, yeah. So I was like, okay, there's that.

I have a little bit of freedom with that. But make sure that your props that you move, make sure that your set pieces you move, are in the right place. That was my biggest thing. I was like, I can mess myself up, but if I mess somebody else up, I'm never gonna forgive myself. Right. Yeah, and that could even translate into hurting someone else too. And that's always been my mindset going into doing any track. It's about the whole. It's about the group. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

[30:42] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, that moment is really crazy. When we did our show, normally shows get an invited dress, especially if it's a new show, and you're creating and all the things. And we didn't. We didn't have an invited dress. Our show changed every day through previews until the very last day of previews. That is so crazy. So right before I had to go on for what would have been our invited dress, but it ended up being our first preview. It's the first time we're in front of an audience. We've never done it. And maybe five minutes before, right before we get into places, they're like, we decided that we want you to enter somewhere else. And I was the first person to walk on stage. So I would walk out alone, and I would have to stand on my mark, and then just start singing acapella and start the whole entire show.

And so I've never been in front of an audience. And they're like, yeah, we're going to have you change. And the stage was textured, so you couldn't even see with the lights, like where the mark was. And I was like, fuck, I'm going to have to find my light, like all this stuff. And they're like, oh, I'm going to have you hold this book. And they gave me this book, and I'm like, wait, what? What am I doing with this book? And they're like, okay, great. And then I was standing there with this book behind the curtain, and I could hear the audience, and I was like, what life choice have I made? This is the worst decision I have ever made in my life. I am going to die. Why did I choose this? This is a terrible idea.

And I was like, either I run away and die now, or I just go out there. And at that moment, I remember walking out, and I was like, you know, looking out, like trying not to look like I was looking for whatever imaginary mark that there was. And then, like, here's a book. And now I'm going to sing, and now there's people. And this is what it is. But, you know, that moment, I was just like, oh, my God, I will never forget that moment for the rest of my life. Because it was just, like, the most present I think you can ever possibly be. Because you're just in yourself. You're just like, it's just me and myself in this moment.

[32:29] Katy Pfaffl: Now, wait a second. Did you remember that performance, or did you have a blackout?

[32:37] Sarah Sigman: Oh, I had a complete blackout, that entire performance. I have no idea what happened. I just remember that it took forever.

[32:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[32:46] Sarah Sigman: Like, the show was so long. Long. Which, I mean, for everybody else, it probably wasn't. But, like, I was like, dang. Each number was painstakingly long. But because you're so present and you're so, like.

[32:55] Katy Pfaffl: So present, but you're also in that present heightened state where it's like.

[32:58] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. You know, you're trying to stay a few steps ahead.

[33:02] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[33:03] Sarah Sigman: As well as being hyper aware of everything around you, making sure that you don't have a costume stafu or prop stuff.

[33:09] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[33:10] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, like those moments, too. For me, the first time I went on as Tarzan, in Tarzan, was there was 12 flights in the show. I had flown nine of them. And I knew where the props were.

[33:26] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[33:27] Sarah Sigman: Right. I knew that one of them had a button on the side.

[33:30] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[33:31] Sarah Sigman: And so, but I also never had a rehearsal.

[33:34] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[33:35] Sarah Sigman: Did I say that?

[33:36] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[33:37] Sarah Sigman: It's in the flights and no rehearsal either. So, I'm walking, and we entered from, Tarzan entered from above the balcony in the house right left. And then he flew all over the whole audience, pendulated in stage, and landed and sang a minute and then went to get a prop. So, I'm walking over the audience, over the ceiling, you know, in the catwalk above the ceiling. And the stage manager was following me. And at that point in time, I had done Rent for six years.

[34:06] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[34:07] Sarah Sigman: And I had not felt nerves.

[34:09] Katy Pfaffl: Right, right.

[34:10] Sarah Sigman: In years.

[34:11] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, of course.

[34:12] Sarah Sigman: Because you just know it. We had bands and everything else.

[34:14] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[34:15] Sarah Sigman: And so, I was having to go, oh, my God, I'm nervous.

[34:18] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah.

[34:19] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, yeah. That's what this is. And the stage manager was like, oh, wait. It's okay, it's okay. And I was like, yes.

[34:24] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[34:25] Sarah Sigman: Hold on. Yes, give me a second. I'm starting to sweat. This carpet feels like not very expensive carpet on my feet.

[34:32] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, just bring home yourself.

[34:34] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, and I'm just bringing myself more and more and more until right now.

[34:37] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[34:38] Sarah Sigman: The temperature of X, you know, the feeling of my skin.

[34:42] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[34:43] Sarah Sigman: And, oh, my heart rate feels about like this. And it just brought me straight here, straight now. And the only thing I can remember from that performance is the very first prop that, of course, didn't light.

[34:53] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, of course.

[34:54] Sarah Sigman: But after that, everything was great.

[34:55] Katy Pfaffl: Wasn't it like a part of the actual scene? Like, didn't you have, didn't you say something about it lighting?

[34:59] Sarah Sigman: Yes, yes. Turk. My best friend, Turk, is over there like asking me to like, I think I was supposed to like light something.

[35:06] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, gee.

[35:07] Sarah Sigman: And he was like, you got that lit yet? And I'm like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. And then we just pretended we laughed about it.

[35:11] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, right.

[35:12] Sarah Sigman: So, if I was giving advice to someone, I would say that. Just in that moment as your own being, in your own vessel, get tied to the earth.

[35:23] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[35:24] Sarah Sigman: And into the moment that way. I know. And the rest will follow.

[35:27] Katy Pfaffl: Absolutely.

[35:28] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, that's good.

[35:30] Katy Pfaffl: That is good advice. Super swinging.

[35:35] Sarah Sigman: Super swinging. Were your parents supportive of you wanting to do this with your life?

[35:44] Sarah Sigman: So supportive. I went to college for a year, and I went to Loyola University in Chicago.

[35:50] Katy Pfaffl: Uh-huh.

[35:51] Sarah Sigman: Okay. Double majored in dance and anthropology.

[35:53] Katy Pfaffl: Is that where you're from?

[35:54] Sarah Sigman: I grew up in Indiana, actually.

[35:55] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, okay.

[35:56] Sarah Sigman: But both of my parents are from New York, originally.

[35:57] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[35:58] Sarah Sigman: They grew up here. But I, after I went to school, like we had this like end of year showcase.

[36:05] Katy Pfaffl: Uh-huh.

[36:06] Sarah Sigman: My parents came, and it's not really, the school is not known for their dance program. I just went there because of the location and like, you know.

[36:14] Katy Pfaffl: Sure.

[36:15] Sarah Sigman: It was familiar-ish, you know. But yeah, also my parents had moved to Florida already to like retire. So it was really just like me vibing out there. But like, so I, yeah, so they came to my like final dance thing for that year, and they were like.

[36:33] Katy Pfaffl: Girl, what are you doing here?

[36:34] Sarah Sigman: Like you've got real talent. Things that you could be doing right now. And I was like, you know what? You're absolutely right. And then at one point, I don't even know who came up with this idea, but I think I was like, I should just move. Like I should definitely just move to New York, like take the leap, whatever. My parents were like.

[36:51] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[36:52] Sarah Sigman: Amazing. Like. We have your college tuition saved up. Saved up from what we, you know, and so they were like.

[36:57] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my gosh.

[36:58] Sarah Sigman: We can get your apartment, and like you can take these classes and stuff. And I was like, oh my God. That's so cool. My mom calls it the school of life. Like.

[37:04] Katy Pfaffl: That is.

[37:05] Sarah Sigman: I went to the school of life. So I moved here at like 19. And my parents were so supportive. Like the most supportive.

[37:10] Katy Pfaffl: That's amazing.

[37:11] Sarah Sigman: And they were so excited. They were just like, yeah, we were wondering when you were going to go. Basically.

[37:16] Katy Pfaffl: That's great.

[37:17] Sarah Sigman: So yeah.

[37:18] Katy Pfaffl: So cool. And so what came first? I saw that you also did Chicago. Is that correct?

[37:21] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. So I guess first, first, like after I moved to New York, basically I did like a bunch of gigs, you know, survival jobs. A year to like almost the date that I moved to New York, I booked Dance Lab New York, which was previously known as Broadway Dance Lab. And it's kind of just like for anybody that doesn't know, it's, they just hire a company of dancers for, I guess like a month and a half or so.

[37:43] Katy Pfaffl: That's cool.

[37:48] Sarah Sigman: And each week there's a different choreographer that comes in and we're just like bodies for that choreographer. Which is so cool. I was just like, I can't believe I'm here. I don't have any of the resumes that y'all have, but like I'm in this room.

[37:55] Katy Pfaffl: In this room.

[37:56] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. Doing the numbers.

[37:58] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[37:59] Sarah Sigman: Like learning one track, doing it, you know.

[38:00] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[38:01] Sarah Sigman: And they're seeing you do it.

[38:02] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[38:03] Sarah Sigman: So it was really fun there, but yeah, it was great. I was meant to, I was supposed to be there.

[38:06] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[38:07] Sarah Sigman: You know and like while I was there, I think I auditioned for like Summer Stock and I ended up booking two different ones and ended up auditioning for Chicago.

[38:15] Katy Pfaffl: And I also ended up getting my agent, Clear.

[38:18] Sarah Sigman: So I booked Chicago like right before I booked my agent. So they luckily, and it was a non-union tour. Honestly, the cast was so fierce. Like everybody, because we were so young and like we were non-union, like I think we wanted it to be so good. And it was like, it was so good. My mom got to see opening night. We were in like Spokane, Washington, but it was so fierce. Our group was so fierce. And then COVID hit like a month later.

[38:43] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow. Okay.

[38:45] Sarah Sigman: But you at least still got a little bit of that experience.

[38:47] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[38:48] Sarah Sigman: That's great. And I will reiterate, it was non-union and like the most non-union.

[38:53] Katy Pfaffl: What does that mean?

[38:54] Sarah Sigman: That means we were doing one-nighters.

[38:56] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[38:57] Sarah Sigman: On a bus.

[38:58] Katy Pfaffl: On a bus.

[38:59] Sarah Sigman: On a bus. I mean, we did, we had to fly all the way out to the West Coast though. But, and we weren't, when I tell you, my contract was literally a month long because we rehearsed in New York for like two weeks, teched and everything in Yakima, Washington, which the locals call Krakama.

[39:12] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[39:13] Sarah Sigman: Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. There's that.

[39:17] Katy Pfaffl: Theater rentals are cheap there.

[39:21] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. For sure.

[39:22] Sarah Sigman: So then we opened in Spokane and I think we were there for maybe three days for opening. Like it wasn't even, we were there for a week. Like that was it. And then we kept like going down California. We had like a one-nighter in like Fresno and like, it was like, and this was the first like couple of weeks of the tour. And I remember my mom calling me. She was like, Sarah, make sure to like use hand sanitizer. Like something's happening. I don't know what's happening. And I was like, okay, mom, like it's fine. Whatever.

[39:39] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[39:40] Sarah Sigman: And then, yeah. And then one day there, we had a layoff week that we were all going to go home for. They were like, okay. Like it was already scheduled. So we were like, okay. So we were like, okay. So I hopped on a flight, went home. Nobody was on that flight while it was like just me and like maybe one or two other people.

[40:11] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[40:12] Sarah Sigman: Right. It was in Florida for a while.

[40:15] Katy Pfaffl: So surreal.

[40:16] Sarah Sigman: So surreal.

[40:17] Katy Pfaffl: So surreal.

[40:18] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, everyone was like, yeah.

[40:19] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[40:20] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[40:21] Katy Pfaffl: So surreal.

[40:25] Sarah Sigman: Well, and so was MJ the only show that you swung for?

[40:28] Sarah Sigman: So I technically swung for On Your Feet.

[40:30] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, you did?

[40:31] Sarah Sigman: I covered eight tracks.

[40:32] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[40:33] Sarah Sigman: In quotations because I never had to go on.

[40:34] Katy Pfaffl: Oh.

[40:35] Sarah Sigman: I don't think I would have been able to, to be honest. It was just so much choreo. And like, I, after I taught the choreo, I was like, oh my God, where, like, I don't even know if I had to go on if I could do it.

[40:46] Katy Pfaffl: Well, so is that where you really realize like what a swing was and what swings do?

[40:50] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. So MJ is the first show that I've actually had to go on as a swing.

[40:54] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[40:55] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[40:56] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[40:57] Sarah Sigman: And so do you have any sort of like swing horror stories? Was there any of, at any time anything didn't go good for you? Like some specific, like on stage or like?

[41:05] Sarah Sigman: Yes. Oh my God, I, I'm trying to think of like something that was actually like really bad that I, cause I feel like I was so hyper-focused on like making sure that I did everything right. Cause I was just like, I can think of so many other people that have done it. No, we're not going to get into that.

[41:26] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[41:27] Sarah Sigman: That's the next episode.

[41:28] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[41:29] Sarah Sigman: Right, right, right. Under the bus. I'm trying to think of anything that has been like, I mean, I feel like a lot of things are like technical elements that have gone wrong and it's just like us being, trying to figure out like how to fix it.

[41:41] Katy Pfaffl: As a group.

[41:44] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. As a unit.

[41:46] Katy Pfaffl: Like before the show?

[41:47] Sarah Sigman: No, during.

[41:48] Katy Pfaffl: During.

[41:49] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[41:50] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[41:51] Sarah Sigman: Exactly.

[41:52] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[41:53] Sarah Sigman: Like, um, the boxes, like we have road boxes and like people walk up and down them and they lock. Sometimes people will forget to lock them or unlock them when like the Michael Jackson has to walk up there and then like the guitar player has to walk up there for me to, that has been crazy.

[42:04] Katy Pfaffl: They can move?

[42:06] Sarah Sigman: They can move.

[42:07] Katy Pfaffl: Oh wow.

[42:08] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[42:09] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[42:10] Sarah Sigman: That's scary.

[42:11] Katy Pfaffl: Has anyone ever fallen?

[42:13] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. One time Elijah, who's our current MJ on Broadway, like this was a while ago, but he, I don't know what happened. The box, the wheel got caught in the, um, we have a trap for the end. It got caught in the trap and whoever was on it, like tried to jolt it to move it. But it also knocked Elijah off the box. And like, he's like still singing, but his leg is like in between the big box and the middle box. And he's like, beat it!

[42:37] Katy Pfaffl: Oh wow.

[42:38] Sarah Sigman: And we're all standing there like, I don't know what to, I don't know how to help you. Like what are we doing? He got up and like, we locked everything and like we did the rest of the number, but like,

[42:47] Katy Pfaffl: That's scary.

[42:48] Sarah Sigman: I tell you, it was so scary.

[42:49] Katy Pfaffl: That's scary.

[42:50] Sarah Sigman: It was so scary. And those boxes are just so temperamental too. Like sometimes they won't, if you don't really hit it, like it won't unlock.

[42:58] Katy Pfaffl: So like I've had to pick up a box before.

[43:00] Sarah Sigman: What's the locking mechanism? It's just like a switch. There's a release to it. Yeah. There's a release to it. If you unlock it and then it clicks and it locks.

[43:06] Sarah Sigman: So you can push it into it, and it'll lock by itself, but to release it, you have to do it with your thumb.

[43:12] Katy Pfaffl: You have to do it with your thumb both ways.

[43:13] Sarah Sigman: Both ways. Okay, that's probably good.

[43:15] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[43:15] Sarah Sigman: Because that way you can trust that it's either closed or it's not quite closed.

[43:18] Katy Pfaffl: Right. Sometimes it runs out of air because it's a pressurized...

[43:21] Sarah Sigman: Oh, wow.

[43:22] Katy Pfaffl: So that's happened before where it's been out of the air.

[43:25] Sarah Sigman: And so we're kind of like, well, what do we do?

[43:27] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[43:28] Sarah Sigman: Do you give a no to the stage management? Management tells the crew.

[43:31] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[43:31] Sarah Sigman: Well, those I would imagine are the things that are kind of probably the scariest as a swing.

[43:35] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, yeah.

[43:37] Sarah Sigman: If you were the swing that happened to set that box...

[43:40] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, yeah.

[43:41] Sarah Sigman: And he was doing... beat it, and he couldn't...

[43:44] Katy Pfaffl: No, literally.

[43:45] Sarah Sigman: You would be going home and being like, oh, my God. I don't know what I want to do with my life anymore.

[43:49] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[43:50] Sarah Sigman: Oh, you know what? I remember. I remember this is probably the worst thing that's ever happened, and this was my fault.

[43:55] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[43:55] Sarah Sigman: So they have us... they sometimes switch us around. I don't really know what the process is of deciding who's doing what, what day.

[44:04] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[44:04] Sarah Sigman: So, I don't know. I just work there. But I was on for a track that I hadn't done in a while.

[44:11] Sarah Sigman: I was doing the other two a lot more, and I had like... I don't know what happened, but I just turned around, and we have this running pattern situation at the end of beat it, where one track runs across the stage, the other one goes through the middle, and the one in the back kind of stays in the back.

[44:30] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[44:30] Sarah Sigman: But I don't know what happened. I have no idea what happened. I turned around, and I was like, who am I? I don't know. I literally don't know where to go.

[44:38] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[44:38] Sarah Sigman: And so one of our techs does this, like, I don't know what it's called, but it's this crazy, like, leg jump situation.

[44:49] Katy Pfaffl: Like a tour de tour-ish?

[44:51] Sarah Sigman: But, like, backward, like, front, like, his front leg, like, goes. I don't even know how he does it. It's so cool.

[44:56] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[44:56] Sarah Sigman: But he does it where I was standing. I usually move. Didn't move. I literally was there for a second, and I was like, what?

[45:07] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[45:08] Sarah Sigman: He didn't do anything. Like, I get here and say, whoo, and he went back. I knew it. I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry.

[45:13] Sarah Sigman: And then I started running into everybody, because I started running too late. And I forgot where I was supposed to go.

[45:18] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[45:18] Sarah Sigman: So I'm, like, literally, I bumped into every person in the ensemble. And then I remembered who I was at the very, very end.

[45:25] Katy Pfaffl: And you got to the right spot, finally.

[45:28] Sarah Sigman: Mortifying. The longest eight count of my life. That was actually terrible.

[45:31] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[45:33] Sarah Sigman: And that wasn't that long ago, actually. That was, like, maybe a year ago.

[45:37] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, you know, that happens too.

[45:39] Sarah Sigman: It happens.

[45:40] Katy Pfaffl: In the long run. After you've done something for a while.

[45:42] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, you're just like, I got this. And you trust yourself. And then you're like, everybody has a brain fart every once in a while.

[45:47] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[45:47] Sarah Sigman: That was my biggest one ever. I was so embarrassed. I thought, like, and I rarely call out in general.

[45:53] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[45:53] Sarah Sigman: But I also rarely, like, I've only called out mid-show one time. And I was because of an injury.

[45:58] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[45:58] Sarah Sigman: But in my head, I was like, should I dismiss myself? Like, I feel so bad. Like, I feel like I shouldn't even be here.

[46:05] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[46:05] Sarah Sigman: Like, I don't deserve this.

[46:07] Katy Pfaffl: It was probably so shocking to your psyche that it happened.

[46:10] Sarah Sigman: Because it surprised you.

[46:11] Katy Pfaffl: It surprised the heck out of me.

[46:13] Sarah Sigman: I was like, this has never happened to me before. I mean, I've forgotten who I was. But, like, it's never, like, manifested like that.

[46:19] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[46:19] Sarah Sigman: It was so bad.

[46:20] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, but that's such a specific thing is to forget who you are.

[46:24] Sarah Sigman: Like, to really think about that. The only reason you would ever have that is because you've been a multiple people.

[46:28] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[46:29] Sarah Sigman: And I've been multiple people at the same time, too. Like, I've done split tracks.

[46:32] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[46:33] Sarah Sigman: In every, like, every, like, pairing of the girls, I've done every single one a split track.

[46:39] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, man.

[46:41] Sarah Sigman: Just more nots. More like a personality disorder. You know what I mean?

[46:44] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[46:46] Sarah Sigman: Who am I?

[46:47] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, right.

[46:48] Sarah Sigman: I mean, you must have had that. You covered a lot of those.

[46:50] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, my gosh.

[46:51] Sarah Sigman: Did you have a who am I?

[46:52] Katy Pfaffl: So many things that were just, like...

[47:05] Sarah Sigman: You have to give yourself grace.

[47:06] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, yeah.

[47:07] Sarah Sigman: For all of those things.

[47:08] Katy Pfaffl: You do.

[47:09] Sarah Sigman: And we've talked about this before. Like, that's a beautiful thing that I think performers need to learn more of.

[47:14] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[47:15] Sarah Sigman: Is giving ourselves grace, but especially swings.

[47:16] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, my gosh.

[47:17] Sarah Sigman: But you're reminding me, too, that not only do we have to give ourselves grace, but we really sometimes need to ask the castmates to...

[47:25] Katy Pfaffl: Give you grace.

[47:26] Sarah Sigman: Give you a little bit of grace.

[47:27] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[47:28] Sarah Sigman: Oh, yes.

[47:29] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[47:31] Sarah Sigman: Did you get to actually perform on Stage of the Tonys?

[47:32] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[47:33] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[47:34] Katy Pfaffl: At Radio City.

[47:35] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. They still let you do it.

[47:37] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[47:38] Sarah Sigman: That's great.

[47:39] Katy Pfaffl: That's really crazy because, like, all of the swings, we got an email that was like, all the swings are going to be in it. Like, all this stuff.

[47:43] Sarah Sigman: I was like, oh, this is so exciting.

[47:44] Katy Pfaffl: I get called into the office, and I'm the only vacation swing, I think, at the time.

[47:47] Sarah Sigman: I get called into the office, and they're like, but, like, you will not be a part of the Tonys performance.

[47:53] Katy Pfaffl: And I was like...

[47:54] Sarah Sigman: Oh.

[47:55] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[47:56] Sarah Sigman: What?

[47:57] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[47:58] Sarah Sigman: You're like, everyone but me.

[48:00] Katy Pfaffl: Everyone but me.

[48:03] Sarah Sigman: Like, the email said all dancers, all swings.

[48:05] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[48:06] Sarah Sigman: And so I was like, that's so crazy that it's not, that I'm not able to do that.

[48:07] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[48:10] Sarah Sigman: So I asked her, and I was like, they got it through COVID times, too. Like, this is for rehearsal, so I had, like, a mask on and a hat.

[48:12] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[48:13] Sarah Sigman: So, like, I was, like, kind of crying. But, like, it's fine.

[48:14] Katy Pfaffl: Sure.

[48:15] Sarah Sigman: But I was like, oh, like, is there, like, a reason? You know, and she was like, I don't know, you know, is it equity rule?

[48:20] Katy Pfaffl: This is not an equity rule.

[48:24] Sarah Sigman: Like, Hamilton had everybody up there.

[48:25] Katy Pfaffl: Right, yeah.

[48:26] Sarah Sigman: Everybody.

[48:27] Katy Pfaffl: It's usually a producer's choice.

[48:28] Sarah Sigman: Right.

[48:29] Katy Pfaffl: So I, like, called Equity, and I was like, is this actually a rule?

[48:31] Sarah Sigman: They were like, no, that's absolutely BS.

[48:33] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[48:34] Sarah Sigman: I said, okay. I think they wanted to keep me as a swing, to swing the Tonys, which I was like, I didn't think that was possible.

[48:39] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[48:42] Sarah Sigman: I didn't know that that was a thing. In case anybody, yeah.

[48:44] Katy Pfaffl: I would have been like, the only way I'm doing that is if I'm there.

[48:47] Sarah Sigman: Right, right.

[48:48] Katy Pfaffl: Otherwise, I'm going somewhere else.

[48:50] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[48:51] Katy Pfaffl: So I asked them, because I was called to the Tonys rehearsals, and Kelly, at the time, had COVID.

[48:58] Sarah Sigman: Oh, wow.

[48:59] Katy Pfaffl: So I was standing in for Kelly.

[49:00] Sarah Sigman: Oh, wow.

[49:01] Katy Pfaffl: And so, but that rehearsal, our PSM at the time, was like, told everybody that I was going to be involved.

[49:09] Sarah Sigman: Okay.

[49:10] Katy Pfaffl: And I was like, we just had a conversation that said that I wasn't.

[49:13] Sarah Sigman: So, like, I'm confused.

[49:15] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[49:15] Sarah Sigman: And, like, everybody's like, oh, my God, Sam, that's so exciting. And I was like, I guess.

[49:19] Katy Pfaffl: That totally screws with your heart.

[49:20] Sarah Sigman: It was so weird, because I was like, what?

[49:22] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[49:23] Sarah Sigman: So I'm standing in as, and, like, our, like, team is like, okay, Sarah, go stand in Kelly's spot.

[49:28] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[49:29] Sarah Sigman: And then slowly everybody started to realize, like, where I was standing.

[49:31] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[49:31] Sarah Sigman: And, like, it's like, Kelly's not not going to do this. Like, I'm just probably not going to do this.

[49:35] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[49:35] Sarah Sigman: So then Kelly came back. Somebody else got injured or had COVID or something.

[49:39] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[49:40] Sarah Sigman: And I was standing in for a boy.

[49:41] Katy Pfaffl: Ah.

[49:42] Sarah Sigman: There you go.

[49:43] Katy Pfaffl: I didn't even cover his track.

[49:43] Sarah Sigman: And he's a swing.

[49:44] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[49:45] Sarah Sigman: So it's a new, it's a, they created that track.

[49:46] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[49:46] Sarah Sigman: So I kept asking. I was like, hi, what's the pose that you want me to do? Because this isn't really in the show.

[49:51] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[49:52] Sarah Sigman: Where do you want me to stand? Like, I was just like, y'all, what is going on?

[49:56] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, no.

[49:56] Sarah Sigman: And so I asked them. I was like, am I swinging this? Like, should I learn everybody's track?

[50:01] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, because that's a job.

[50:02] Sarah Sigman: That's a job.

[50:03] Katy Pfaffl: Then I could.

[50:04] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[50:05] Katy Pfaffl: So then you know what you're doing, at least.

[50:06] Sarah Sigman: And they were like, we don't know yet. Like, just, you know, come to rehearsals. Just do what you can in the back, you know.

[50:12] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[50:12] Sarah Sigman: Anyways, the Thursday before the Tony Sunday, I got called into our associate choreographer's office.

[50:19] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[50:21] Sarah Sigman: And I was like, hey.

[50:21] Katy Pfaffl: Hey.

[50:21] Sarah Sigman: So Rennie is injured. Like, we don't want him. Like, his doctor doesn't really want him to, you know.

[50:30] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[50:30] Sarah Sigman: So we'd love for you to be a part of it and do his track.

[50:32] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, my god, like, I'm so excited. Thank you for this.

[50:34] Sarah Sigman: Again, like, it's Thursday before the Sunday.

[50:37] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[50:38] Sarah Sigman: And then I see Rennie. And I was like, hey, are you OK? Like, I'm so sorry that you don't get to do this.

[50:43] Sarah Sigman: And he was like, girl, I do not care. Like, he still got to do it, because there was, they say, he just, like, got to pose and run off.

[50:50] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, wow.

[50:51] Sarah Sigman: So he got to be on TV. He was like, I just want to be on TV. I don't really, I don't have to dance.

[50:55] Katy Pfaffl: OK.

[50:56] Sarah Sigman: Wait, so this is a win-win. Why didn't we talk about this?

[50:58] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[50:58] Sarah Sigman: Like, why wasn't this the plan the whole time?

[51:00] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[51:01] Sarah Sigman: He was like, I don't know.

[51:01] Katy Pfaffl: So you both got to do it.

[51:02] Sarah Sigman: We both got to do it.

[51:03] Katy Pfaffl: That's so great.

[51:04] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:05] Katy Pfaffl: That's such a great.

[51:06] Sarah Sigman: But yeah, again, like, it's just, when you're a swing, it's kind of like you're the last person to be thought of, and especially a vacation swing.

[51:11] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[51:11] Sarah Sigman: So again, advocating for yourself, asking the questions that you need answers to.

[51:15] Katy Pfaffl: Do you feel like being a swing has helped you learn how to advocate for yourself?

[51:17] Sarah Sigman: Yes.

[51:20] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, my gosh.

[51:21] Sarah Sigman: If you, like, I think I'm, no, I wouldn't say a different person. But, like, I've evolved so much over the last couple of years that, like, I feel like I, yeah, I feel like I can advocate for myself now.

[51:31] Katy Pfaffl: That's great.

[51:31] Sarah Sigman: And I can properly, like, I have the vocabulary and, like, the confidence to just be like, yes, I would like to know the reason behind this, you know?

[51:39] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[51:40] Sarah Sigman: And it's not being a jerk.

[51:41] Katy Pfaffl: No, I'm, like, actually curious.

[51:43] Sarah Sigman: Well, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's also useful information for you to grow as a person.

[51:47] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[51:48] Sarah Sigman: Right, to find that information out, yeah.

[51:49] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[51:50] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[51:51] Katy Pfaffl: How about you have covers now for your work?

[51:54] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, I do, yeah.

[51:55] Katy Pfaffl: What's it like to be covered?

[51:57] Sarah Sigman: It's lovely, and I feel like I hope that they think that I, like, understand them, you know?

[52:04] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[52:06] Sarah Sigman: And, like, just because I've been there, and I don't want to, like, put them in a position where they have to go on after Beat It, which is, I've had to do that before, and I've had to, you know, like, there's so many positions that I've been put in that I had wished I wasn't in, I guess.

[52:17] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[52:18] Sarah Sigman: So, you know, I think that I have that in mind, and I always, like, let them know before I text stage management, I'm like, hey, I'm calling out today.

[52:25] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, you're a cool one.

[52:26] Sarah Sigman: Oh my God, yeah.

[52:27] Katy Pfaffl: That's awesome.

[52:28] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, that's so cool.

[52:29] Katy Pfaffl: That's so great.

[52:30] Sarah Sigman: You know, it was scheduled for, like, you know, Christmas and New Year's and stuff.

[52:34] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah.

[52:35] Sarah Sigman: I'm like, y'all.

[52:36] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[52:37] Sarah Sigman: I'm, it's giving, I'm going to be out.

[52:39] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[52:40] Sarah Sigman: Just so you know, if you want to invite some people.

[52:43] Katy Pfaffl: Let's see, but that's so kind.

[52:44] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[52:45] Katy Pfaffl: That's so, yeah.

[52:46] Sarah Sigman: That's so kind, because you know, it's like, it's really special to be able to know in advance.

[52:49] Katy Pfaffl: It is.

[52:50] Sarah Sigman: It definitely is.

[52:51] Katy Pfaffl: And get your people there.

[52:52] Sarah Sigman: One of the things I would like to know is, do you have any advice for any up-and-coming swings that are kind of stepping into the ring of things that you learned or things that you wish you knew?

[53:03] Sarah Sigman: Yeah. I mean, I feel like throughout this conversation, we've kind of, like, hinted at a lot of these things, but I would say, like, definitely, as long as you're a genuine person and you're lovely to work with and you're, like, willing to learn and willing to make mistakes, but, like, learn from them, I think that you're going to be golden.

[53:21] Katy Pfaffl: That's great advice.

[53:24] Sarah Sigman: Like, it's, it's a hard job. And I, I don't know.

[53:28] Sarah Sigman: I mean, I don't think that I wish that I had known.

[53:32] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[53:32] Sarah Sigman: I mean, kind of thing, because I ended up learning on the job.

[53:35] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[53:35] Sarah Sigman: But I think that I went in with a pretty good head on my shoulders about, like, yeah, you can't be a perfectionist.

[53:42] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[53:42] Sarah Sigman: Like, I think that they hire a lot of perfectionists to be swings because even though we know we can't get that, we're achieving as at a high, at a very high level.

[53:52] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[53:52] Sarah Sigman: And, like, yeah, I think it's just making sure that you are on it.

[53:57] Katy Pfaffl: With whatever you can be on, if that makes sense.

[54:00] Sarah Sigman: Like, whatever's in your control, you're taking care of that. And I think you'll be fine.

[54:05] Katy Pfaffl: Well, that's really good.

[54:06] Sarah Sigman: And also what's, conversely, what's out of your control is something to also realize.

[54:10] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, exactly.

[54:11] Sarah Sigman: Well, and do you have anything that you would like cast members, having been a swing, like other people who haven't been swings, is there any sort of things that you would like them to know?

[54:22] Sarah Sigman: No.

[54:23] Katy Pfaffl: Giving grace always, leading with grace is really good.

[54:28] Sarah Sigman: Oh, I think that, like, not necessarily giving notes because nobody wants to get notes from any equals.

[54:36] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[54:36] Sarah Sigman: But I do think that if you have anything that could help somebody, like actually help them, not necessarily it being a note, but being like, oh, like, you know, I can grab you and move you a little bit, like pretending like we're having a moment, but I'm actually moving you to your spot, you know what I mean?

[54:54] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[54:54] Sarah Sigman: Or like, you know, do you want my help?

[54:56] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, asking if you want, if they want help, and if they do, like, you know, something that's somewhat collaborative and not necessarily like, I don't know.

[55:04] Sarah Sigman: You're in the wrong spot, let me move you.

[55:06] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[55:07] Sarah Sigman: Right, yeah.

[55:08] Katy Pfaffl: Or being like, come over here, let's party over here.

[55:11] Sarah Sigman: Healthy communication.

[55:12] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[55:13] Sarah Sigman: Just understanding we're both on the same team.

[55:14] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[55:15] Sarah Sigman: Like, we're not on different teams because it's, you know, swing and ensemble member or swing and lead.

[55:19] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[55:20] Sarah Sigman: It's not a different team. The show is the team.

[55:22] Katy Pfaffl: Of course.

[55:23] Sarah Sigman: Right.

[55:24] Katy Pfaffl: And if you are on playing on that team, you want to work together to make sure that it's a good show.

[55:27] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[55:28] Katy Pfaffl: So that being said, as far as teams of shows go, would you ever take the position of swing again?

[55:35] Sarah Sigman: Whew. If it really benefited me, maybe.

[55:41] Katy Pfaffl: Okay.

[55:42] Sarah Sigman: Just because I do know that I'm good at it.

[55:44] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[55:44] Sarah Sigman: I think if there was a show that, you know, I mean, I'm going to use this as an example.

[55:50] Katy Pfaffl: Sure.

[55:50] Sarah Sigman: I don't know if this is actually what I'm considering it being perfect, but, like, I would love to play all three sisters in Ableton.

[55:57] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, that would be really cool.

[55:59] Sarah Sigman: Like, that would be really cool. And that would be a good opportunity to do that.

[56:01] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[56:02] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[56:03] Katy Pfaffl: Again, not sure if that is actually the perfect situation.

[56:10] Sarah Sigman: Sure, if that makes sense. Because then you would be challenged as a performer.

[56:13] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[56:14] Sarah Sigman: And it would, each of those roles would be gratifying.

[56:16] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[56:17] Sarah Sigman: For sure.

[56:18] Katy Pfaffl: I totally get that.

[56:19] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[56:20] Katy Pfaffl: Well, how can everyone find you?

[56:28] Sarah Sigman: I'm on Instagram, probably the most out of all social media, but it's at Sarah with an H. S-A-R-A-H, Sigmund, S as in S-A-M-I-G-M-A-N underscore.

[56:37] Katy Pfaffl: Sarah Sigmund underscore.

[56:39] Sarah Sigman: Cool, cool, cool.

[56:40] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[56:41] Sarah Sigman: Yay.

[56:42] Katy Pfaffl: And everybody needs to go see Sarah and MJ.

[56:44] Sarah Sigman: Yes.

[56:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yes, yes, yes.

[56:46] Sarah Sigman: And also follow her on Instagram so you can join her career.

[56:48] Katy Pfaffl: Yes.

[56:49] Sarah Sigman: Yes.

[56:50] Katy Pfaffl: Oh.

[56:51] Sarah Sigman: Yeah, and we will be following you.

[56:52] Katy Pfaffl: I will be following you guys back.

[56:53] Sarah Sigman: Yeah.

[56:54] Katy Pfaffl: And thank you so much. It's just been such a joy spending time with you.

[56:57] Sarah Sigman: Thank you.

[57:00] Katy Pfaffl: We're so, so grateful that you've come here to be with us.

[57:06] Sarah Sigman: Super swinging, saving the show.

[57:09] Katy Pfaffl: Thanks so much for staying with us all the way to the end of the episode.

[57:12] Sarah Sigman: Make sure to tune into our next episode coming out in a few weeks.

[57:15] Katy Pfaffl: Check us out on Instagram at Super Swings Broadway.

[57:18] Sarah Sigman: And if there's any super swings out there that you think we should interview, please drop into our DMs and let us know and we will reach out to them because we want to have as many super swings out there in the spotlight as we possibly can.

[57:26] Katy Pfaffl: Thanks so much.