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[0:00] Eli Tokash: Hello everyone and welcome to episode 134 of Take A Bow. I'm your host, Eli Tokash, and this week we have another very, very exciting episode. As I mentioned last week, our final two episodes of the year are actually going to be with directors on Broadway. This week's episode is actually with a director choreographer, known for his work on Broadway and throughout the music industry and all types of different things: commercial dance, all of that. It's fantastic. And we talk all about it. We have a wonderful conversation, actually. It's really fun to chat with Jeffery L. Page, for those of you who didn't see from the title of the episode, who is currently the co-director and choreographer of 1776.

And then he choreographed Violet as well. But he also went on tour with like Mariah Carey and Beyoncé and all, and he was like their artistic director for their tour. Very, very cool stuff. He's done it all. And the conversations that we have are just so brilliant. You know, it's easy to follow. Jeffrey is a wonderful speaker. So if you don't understand the world of directing or choreographing or anything like that, that's okay because you can learn all about it. And he really paints a really graphic picture when he speaks. Honestly, like I mentioned it several times in the episode. He fully paints a picture with every story that he tells. You can see he's very artistically minded and creative-minded when it comes to just having a conversation with him.

So, very, very good stuff, very fun conversation. That is definitely important. I mentioned last week when we have directors on, it's very important for those who want to be directors or choreographers to learn and get advice from them, but also very important for artists and performers to understand what that specific director or choreographer that you could be going into the room for and auditioning for are looking for when you walk into a room. So it's great stuff here and super, super valuable stuff and I loved this episode for so many reasons. But before we turn it over to that, we got to talk about some Broadway news and I am going to keep this week short because this is a bit of a longer episode with Jeffery.

He gave us a lot of his time which I'm so grateful for. And but we got to talk about some Broadway news. So I want to start out by saying that I am absolutely like I am so upset with myself. Last week I did not mention possibly two of the hottest and most important stories of last week and I didn't get to share that in last week's episode. I don't know how I did not but I definitely definitely missed the boat on it and wanted to make sure that I talked about it and said my piece on the matters at hand that I'm about to bring up. So last week we got the unfortunate news that both K-pop and Ain't No Mo are both going to be closing very abruptly and with very short notice. So this was in large part of the fact that it costs so much money to put on a Broadway show and tickets were just not being sold.

Unfortunately with that being said they literally had to make the decision that they would be closing the same week both shows that is K-pop and Ain't No Mo. Obviously K-pop is dealing with Korean and AAPI community and diversity within their cast and Ain't No Mo is a black celebrated culturalistic piece that's new on Broadway. And it's very, very like both of them are so amazing, and the messages are incredible and things that need to be told and things that need to be listened and heard and listened to. Unfortunately, I missed the boat on K-pop and I didn't get to see K-pop before it abruptly closed. Ain't No Mo announced that they were able to sell out basically the rest of the week. So that allowed them to be able to extend one more week, not a full week, but it did allow them to extend seven more shows.

So they had performances Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Friday is their last day. So when you're listening to this, if you're listening to this the day that it comes out, Thursday, December 22nd, you will be witnessing one of the final performances of Ain't No Mo. And you should go see the closing performance of Ain't No Mo, which would be tomorrow. If you're listening to this, I actually plan on going to see the final performance because I will not be able to make it until then with finals. But everyone needs to go see this piece. If you saw K-pop, thank you for seeing it, and thank you for allowing those stories and that music and that culture to be heard. But we need to do more, and we need to do it with Ain't No Mo while it's here and hopefully be able to extend it another week.

Just because it's all it's really based off ticket sales, and there have been a lot of shows closing that have just opened up, and that's simply because not enough people are going to see the art. We need to be supporting the arts in all facets, and we need to be hearing and supporting the arts for not just a white culture. We need to go support the AAPI community and the black community and all the different communities of the stories and cultures that are being portrayed here on Broadway and showcased. Now we've been able to producers and everything have kind of stepped up and being able to put those stories on a Broadway stage, and now it's up to us, the audience members, to go see those shows and go support that work so that we can continue to see those types of stories here on Broadway and them being represented properly.

So everyone go check that out. Ain't No Mo. Do whatever you can. I do want to shout out they've been doing great stuff all week. They've had special guest hosts, performances by notable celebrities. They had Queen Latifah and RuPaul come and literally like make a pre-show announcement and act as if like the MC of the Broadway show. It was very, very cool. And I'm interested in seeing more people do that. But it's just another reason like they posted it beforehand and they were like, oh, come see this special performance. Like it was great marketing strategy to get people to see the show. And hopefully they've been selling out. So hopefully they can extend again. Again, that's gonna be based off of us, the audience, and going to buy tickets.

They have two shows on Friday, they have one show on Thursday. So go see Thursday night. If you're listening to this before 8 p.m., go see it tonight. And if you're listening to this on Thursday or Friday morning, you can see it Friday at 2 p.m. or 8 p.m. So go check that out. Please go support these stories and this piece of art and the performers that are sharing their stories. With that being said, another show announced that they were closing, and that's Almost Famous. So Almost Famous is closing January 8th. I haven't seen any of these shows. This is like so bad. Almost Famous is closing January 8th, and kind of heartbreaking. Casey Likes did a wonderful post-show announcement, as well as Jordan Cooper for Ain't No Mo.

Especially when he announced he's had a couple in the past weeks, and he announced the closing and the extension in such beautiful ways. You should go check that out. It's probably online or on YouTube or somewhere. And I encourage you all to, I'm also posting the Ohio State Murders opening night. So everyone should go listen because there's a very, very vital and special speech in the curtain call that's on my Instagram, it's on my TikTok, all the things for Take A Bow Podcast, where he talks about the importance of supporting the arts right now and going to see these shows and these stories and allowing artists and storytellers to be represented and you as audience members. So very important stuff, and everyone should go see that.

There's been some wonderful curtain call speeches as of late. So go check that out and kind of understand what I'm talking about and how important it really is because they are far better speakers than I can ever be. So with that being said, unfortunately, all those shows are closing, all those shows are closing with very little notice, which is very concerning and upsetting. But this industry is a business and it sucks, but it feels like we're constantly reminded that more and more as of late. But with that being said, with shows closing, there's always new shows coming, and we had exciting news announced that Merrily We Roll Along will be transferring to Broadway by the surprise of absolutely no one because it was literally selling out at New York Theater Workshop.

You can't even get a ticket. It's craziness. So that's gonna be transferring. There is no theater or date yet, so more details to follow. But Playbill suggests that it will be coming in the fall of 2023. So later on in the year next year. So very exciting stuff. And yeah, that's all the news I have for you this week. Not too much happened, but I wanted to make sure that I touched on what happened last week and you know all the other things. So with that being said, I'm gonna turn it over to this week's episode because it's a wonderful episode and it was a fairly long one. So I'm gonna keep this section short. So without further ado, let's turn it over to Jeffery L. Page.

[9:45] Eli Tokash: Jeffrey L. Page, curtain up.

[9:52] Eli Tokash: All right, y'all. We've got a very exciting guest this episode. He has conquered it all across theater, film, commercial dance, you name it. He's an Emmy Award nominated choreographer, a Broadway director and choreographer. He's been a choreographer on So You Think You Can Dance. He's led creative teams for Beyoncé and Mariah Carey tours. I mean, you name it. Everyone, this is so exciting. Welcome to Take A Bow, Jeffery L. Page.

[10:18] Jeffrey L. Page: How are you doing?

[10:20] Jeffrey L. Page: I'm so good. Oh my god, I have to take you with me. That was like exciting. You got like I'm I'm like jumping up and down, like, who is this guy? This guy is amazing.

[10:31] Eli Tokash: You're very cool if you didn't know.

[10:35] Jeffrey L. Page: I appreciate that.

[10:36] Eli Tokash: Yeah, of course. I mean, you've just done so much in your career, and this is just the beginning, you know. I feel like there's so much more that we'll be seeing so much more of you in for a while. I'm very excited. I appreciate you doing this. I like to always start out my episodes kind of asking you what got you into theater, what got you into the art form of performing in general, and you know, what was that moment that you were like, oh, I want to be telling stories through movement or performing and all that.

[11:09] Jeffrey L. Page: Wow, that's a that's a good question. I guess I should start off by saying I teach it, I'm a faculty member at Harvard, and I have a student who he recently went to Yale to go and see a play. He's my he's kind of like my my assistant, my my protege. He went to Yale to go and see a play. And we were talking about it, and he said, Jeffery, like I understand now. And I was like, you understand what? What are you what are you talking about? He said, I understand, like this play was the greatest thing that I've ever seen in my life. Like it like I like I can't imagine my life without doing this. And he said, to be honest with you, Jeffery, I was a little jealous of those performers on the stage because I wasn't on the stage with them.

And it was that moment that he, you know, now he's like plunging into it. He's like, Jeffery, wherever you go, I want to be, you know, if you go to LA, if you go to Rochester, if you go to, you know, England, wherever you go, I want to be. A similar thing happened to me. To answer your question of how did I get into this thing. When I was a kid, when I was a kid, of course, I loved, you know, seeing the the school programs where actors would come to the school programs and do like a play or something. I just I loved all of that. And then I went to I went to a play from this company in Indianapolis, Indiana, which is where I'm from. The company is called Asante Children's Theater. And I went to this play, and I was probably about a I was probably about 10 years old or so.

And similar to the student to my student who I just told you about, I couldn't stop thinking about this play. Like I was like, man, like the camaraderie of kids on a stage, they look like me, they sounded like me. They like I couldn't stop thinking about this play. And then I joined I was a hip hop, like I was heavy into hip hop dance when I was a kid. And so in Indianapolis, they have these dance competitions called Star Quest, and it's just like a little neighborhood competition.

[14:26] Jeffrey L. Page: Um, but the but in Indianapolis we take it very seriously. It's basically like, you know, groups are formed, you know, hip hop to, you know, hip hop dancing, you know, it's like maybe two to upwards of like maybe 10 people are in a group, and and I used to love going to Star Quest. That was the highlight of my childhood, was going to Star Quest to like see these dancers. It was like it blew my mind, and um, and I wanted to like participate, and so there was a I was walking down the street and I saw a poster um that said uh tryouts for hip-hop dance group, and I said, Oh my god, I I want to go. So I went and it was no hip hop. It was this lady who is now my dear mentor and my friend, um, her name was Mejiza Soyini, and she was teaching African dance.

[15:43] Wow.

[15:44] Jeffrey L. Page: And I was the only boy there.

[15:48] Wow.

[15:48] Jeffrey L. Page: And it was it was probably about 20 or 30 girls, you know, and I was the only one there. I was the only boy there. And I liked it a lot. So like in between football practice and basketball practice and after and and before baseball practice and karate. And I would I would like negotiate my time to make sure that I was always at rehearsal. And so between Asante Children's Theater, which I ended up joining, um, you know, after I saw that play, and uh this particular dance group, between those two groups, I got bit by the bug.

[16:43] Yeah.

[16:45] Jeffrey L. Page: That's you know, yeah, yeah. That's essentially what happened.

[16:50] Eli Tokash: That's amazing.

[16:51] Jeffrey L. Page: Yeah. And I would say, and I would also say that during that time I went to go see Ain't Miss Behaving uh in Indianapolis, and that blew my mind. And I used to, I used to go to bed listening to that soundtrack and wake up listening to that soundtrack, and everything. I I loved Ain't Miss Behaving. Like imagine this little kid singing Ain't Misbehaving, like in in the era of hip-hop and doing African dance, and you know, I so I was I was I was a weirdo, I was a weirdo, and I was really proud of being a weirdo. Um so that's how I got into it.

[17:35] Eli Tokash: Hey, aren't we all?

[17:36] Jeffrey L. Page: We're all weirdos. That's why we chose this profession, you know. You know, it's good stuff, it allows us to go on stage and perform and just to like be weird and just have fun, you know. And that's what audiences love about it. They can go and they're like, wow, like they can do it. And like I would be like so nervous to do that. Like you, you know, we're really putting ourselves out there to entertain others, you know, and I think that's the coolest thing about it.

[18:02] Eli Tokash: Yeah, it's it's quite amazing, right?

[18:04] Jeffrey L. Page: You um, you know that thing that you said, you put yourself out there to to entertain others. I I look at it a little bit differently. I look at it like you are putting yourself out there to say something, to desperately say something. Um I I think we're taught, we're we're taught that you're entertaining them, but in actuality, you're trying desperately to say something, you know, in the same way that a poet, you know, is attempting to say something in their poetry, and uh and a singer is attempting to say something in their song, like you're desperately attempting to say something, but there are no words to say it.

[18:54] The words don't exist, like it, you know, so you have to you have to do it inside of your voice in a different kind of way. You have to do it in your body in a different kind of way. Um, and that that's what what makes it possible so that you can say something and actually begin to shift people internally, you know. To I like to think of it as rearranging their internal furniture, you know.

[19:25] So that's what we are that's what we uh uh that's what we do is we we're like vampires and and we need it you know it's it's a blessing and a curse you know um and I believe that I believe that it's a divine blessing and a curse um so I agree with you I think I think we're we're in this thing because we are desperate to say something um that words don't always allow us to say right right right and we're and we're able to to you know present the the topics in open conversations to something that may be harder to translate in words you know 1776 which is what a show that you currently have on Broadway does so in such a beautiful way without even needing to you know you've got a a group uh of fantastic uh female non-binary trans identifying artists on the stage playing a quote unquote traditional male role or like a male figure in our history and and you know you you you've kind of created a revolutionary thing in in in this art form of 1776 i mean what does that kind of mean to you and what does it mean to you know tell that story from all of those different perspectives that aren't you know older white men um it's interesting uh yet yet another uh very good question that you ask Mike thank you um let's see.

[21:03] Jeffrey L. Page: Um so when Diane Paulus came to me and she asked me to work on this show with her, um I had no clue what 1776 was like not just the play. I literally had no clue what like I had no clue what I was like what I don't even know what that means. What's that what is 1776? Right and call it whatever whatever you want to call it, call it you know, bad education, call it whatever you want to call it. I had no clue what 1776 was, and I know that I'm not alone because at least in the communities that I run in, um, most black people are like, I have no clue what 1776 is.

[21:54] Like, I have like not a clue. Well, like what is that thing you're doing, Jeffery? 1785? What is that? Right. And so and so I I couldn't understand why she asked me. I just couldn't understand why, you know.

[22:12] Um, years ago, I did company uh at Barrington Stage with Julie Boyd. This is Steven Sondheim's company, and I had the same curiosity. Like, why are you asking me to do company? Like Steven Sondheim is this white guy. Julie, you're like this white lady. The whole company is like a white cast. Shouldn't you ask like a white choreographer to do it? Like I'm I'm a little like why why is and and I actually and I actually had this conversation with Julie.

[22:49] I Julie is someone who's like a mentor to me. I consider her to be like my aunt. Um and uh we were at lunch and I said, Julie, why, why did you ask me to do company? Um I loved her answer. It's very different than the answer for seven for you that it's very different from the answer that you're asking right now. What she said is Jeffery, because you need you need to be more versed at stuff other than just black stuff.

[23:25] Now easier food, right? So with respect to Diane asking me this, I'm I'm thinking to myself, this doesn't include me. This is like a bunch of old stuffy white people who and and I don't I I don't fit into the narrative of America.

[23:35] I don't fit into that narrative. When I look at billboards, you know, and and the billboards are showing me things that that are supposed to be beautiful by American standards and things that are supposed to be American, I never see my face. And when I when I listen to, when I listen to uh when I look at the presidents and and I look at politics, I don't see my face.

[24:08] And when I when I go into very important spaces and places, I don't see my face. Um so in my mind, of course, I like I have no other choice but to be American, but I'm I'm not American. Like I am American, but I'm not American, you know.

[24:39] So what does this have to do with me? I'm just I'm just uh kind of going along the ride. Right. You know what I mean? And uh her so Diane asking me to do this show, um it made me question all of that.

[24:56] And it made me question um whether or not I have I actually have a relationship to America. And uh the answer is yes, I have a I have a deep relationship with America. I'm I'm not like I'm not like you know uh I'm not like born in the West Indies or like I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana. My parents are are from Louisville, Kentucky.

[25:28] Every single family member that I know of is from Louisville, Kentucky. Wow. Um, I don't know anybody else who uh I don't know any other family member who's not from Louisville, Kentucky. So wouldn't that make me American?

[25:47] Yeah, you know what I mean? Um but for some reason we're taught that America is something else. It looks like something else, it feels like something else. So I was I became really interested in the show because I wanted to start to show people that this idea of America is much bigger than what we could ever imagine.

[26:12] And I wanted to, I wanted to completely rip apart these uh notions of what we assume America to be. America looks like me. I am America, and America looks like you, and America looks like that person over there, and that person over there, and America looks like all of us, and and the people who were not invited into that room to write the Declaration of Independence.

[26:52] Right.

[26:53] Jeffrey L. Page: And so to be able to craft a story um that takes women, that takes uh trans folk, that takes uh gender nonconforming folks, and has and has them uh literally and figuratively step into the shoes of these billboards and these ideas and these notions about what America is and like Mary Poppins.

[27:33] You know, when Mary Poppins jumps into the painting, you you're probably strong for that. When Mary Poppins jumps into the painting, like and she starts to change everything around, you step into the shoes and you jump into the painting, you jump into the narrative, yeah.

[27:53] And you experience the narrative in another kind of way, and you open up the narrative, and then you go through this ritual enactment, and then at the end of the ritual enactment, you you lay yourself bare and you s and you show I am American.

[28:15] I am.

[28:16] Jeffrey L. Page: So in in every single way that you mistreat me, I am American. And every way that you have told me that I am savage and barbarian and un-American and alien, I actually am American. And so that's what that's the reason that I wanted to do the show. And that's the reason that that's the thing that fueled me into wanting to create this narrative, uh, especially for people about people who uh systemically are taught that they are not American.

[29:06] Jeffrey L. Page: But they don't belong, or they're not invited into the room, into the special room where all of the decisions get made. Um, and that's what I'm interested in doing with the show. That's why the show is what it is. I think that that is absolutely inspirational in every way, the way that you look at the show and kind of tackle it, and I think it translates beautifully in how you and Diane both have really stepped in and changed the narrative of the show in general, because I have not seen this show in any shape or form before this production here or that's on Broadway right now. But I know from the text, because the text hasn't changed, if I saw a bunch of white men up on the stage, it would be in a completely different show.

It would probably just be glorifying America and everything. And now with this special production with all of these diverse performers from all female and all trans and all races and cultures and all these wonderful things that you see on stage, you forget that they're playing the roles of men, you know, they're having relationships with one another, and that goes over your head, you know. You see a woman in power, and you don't even see that as abnormal as an audience member. And I think that that is because of the work that you have put in in stepping into this and really tackling it to really show that no, we're all American, we all have ties to it. So, do you kind of pride yourself on the process that you took in the room and finding out and making sure that you were able to tell this story in such a powerful and clear way with the non-traditional writing of this piece?

[31:02] Jeffrey L. Page: Um, so you brought up a couple of different things that I would love to touch on. First, you brought up how we see theater, and then the kind of ebb and flow that happens that makes us forget that we are in a theatrical process, and then sometimes we remember, right? So, um, if you could just kind of do me a favor and just remember what your question is, because I'm going to go on what seems to be a tangent, um, in order to address some of the points that you brought up, and then I'm going to answer the question about, you know, what was it like in the room and whatnot. So if you could just help me to remember, uh, so the first thing that I'll say is theater is not real, right? Theater is not meant to be a museum.

Does that make sense? It's not meant to be something that documents the history that it's talking about. Theater is an artistic form, and it's meant to document where we are artistically, right? So therefore, um, therefore it's philosophers such as Bertel Brecht who started to think about this idea of what theater is and how could theater be used in order to help his people in Germany and in Hitler's regime of Germany, right? This is when Hitler was coming into power. So Bertel Brecht was very scared for his people, right? Because he saw something that other people couldn't see, so he started to think about a device that would help people to see the difference between illusion and reality. Like illusion and reality.

Like I'm lying and I'm telling the truth. So he built up that muscle of illusion versus reality. And I'll give you an example of it. So when you look at Peter Pan, right? Let's imagine we're going to the theater to watch Peter Pan. And Peter Pan is hoisted up by cables and pipes and all kinds of things, right? We see Peter Pan flying. But then there's a moment where we give in to the theatrical process, and the cables and pipes, they disappear, and we actually believe that he's really flying. And then in the next five seconds, we see the cables and pipes. And then in the next five seconds, we don't see the cables and pipes. And then in the next five seconds, we see the cables and pipes. So it's like this ebb and flow of like muscularly working the mind so that you see the cables and pipes, you don't see the cables and pipes.

You see the cables and pipes, you don't see the cables and pipes. The reason that I'm bringing that up is because we didn't change much of the text, right? Right. But these are people who historically were not meant to belong inside of these characters, right? Right. So in one moment you're seeing women, trans folks, and non-binary folks on stage, and then the next moment you're not, and then the next moment you are, and then suddenly everything disappears, and then suddenly everything reappears again, and you're like, wait, that these and you're like, wait, like this ebbing and flowing, right? Um, it's working the mind in a big way. That's number one. Um, so that's what I mean when I say theater is not supposed to be a museum, it's an artistic gesture.

It's the same as when we go to the MoMA and we're looking at a Picasso or we're looking at a piece of art, right? And let's imagine Picasso draws this big head with the eye here and an eye here, one eye way up here, one eye way down here, and the nose way over to the side, and the mouth way over to this side. That is not real. That is Picasso's impression of what he believes, what he feels from the essence of the thing that he's getting at. There's this story, right? The story goes the teacher asks the students to draw a horse and Susie, she draws circles like she draws these circles that go like this, right? Circle, circle, circle, circle, circles, right? And Bobby draws things that look like thunderbolts, thunderbolts, right?

And Susie and Bobby, they hand their portraits of the horse, the circle and the thunderbolt to the teacher, and the teacher looks at it and says, "Susie, where's the horse? Where's the tail? Where's the legs? And where's the hooves? And where's the mouth? Bobby, where's the ears? And where's the mane? And where's the back?" And what Susie and Bobby have done is they drew the essence of the horse. They didn't draw the real manifestation of the horse, they drew the essence of the horse. In Susie's mind, the horse zips around the circle like this, and in Bobby's mind, the horse is powerful like a thunderbolt, right? They drew the essence of the horse, right? So that's what I mean by we have to open up our minds a little bit and understand that theater is something bigger than just these people on stage doing this thing, and we are meant to document it.

It's an artistic gesture, right? So that's one thing. The second thing that I will say is this process was so fortifying and so, um, it was difficult. It was difficult in the best way. It was kind of like going to the gym, and you have to do, in order to build the muscles and get this body that you want, you have to go to the gym, you have to be consistent, and you have to do the thing that puts your muscles through a tremendous amount of rigor, right? So in order, if you don't get the rigor, then you don't build muscle, right? If your muscles don't feel that tension, then they're kind of chilling out, they're not extending themselves and growing themselves. So I told you why I came to the show, what my thoughts were.

My thoughts were very specifically, I'm a black man, and I have never considered myself to be and to fit inside of the narrative of America. That's why I'm coming into the show. And so in rehearsal, what I learned is other people have their stories as well that need to be fully considered. You know, there needs to be a fully considered Native American story. And there needs to be a fully considered Filipino story. And there needs to be a fully considered, you know, a queer story. And then like all of these spaces and places and different kinds of humans, they have to be considered in a way that fully grounds them in the thing. And so rehearsal for something like this, with the text being as difficult as it was, and us stretching it in the way that we stretched it, it was hard, but it was hard in the best of ways.

I feel like I'm a stronger, bigger, smarter human being for going through everything that I've gone through with the show so far. And I feel like the artists who we have brought into the show, they've taught me. I've taught them and they've taught me. So it's been a true exchange of artistry, and that has been really beautiful. Um, so they are starting to understand how I fit into the narrative of America, and I'm starting to understand how they fit into the narrative of America. And this is making me a better artist, and it's also making them a better artist. And then if we can reckon with all of that stuff, and if we allow ourselves to stay in the room amongst all of the hurt and all of the pain and all of the ugliness, then we have a good chance of creating a beautiful story.

[42:30] Jeffrey L. Page: Yeah. And a beautiful piece of art together. And I think that's what we did.

[42:36] Eli Tokash: Oh my God. Does that answer your question?

[42:40] Jeffrey L. Page: Absolutely.

[42:41] Eli Tokash: It answers it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was perfect. I mean, it truly is beautiful with what you guys were able to put on stage. And you know, that beginning gives me chills every time when all of them come onto the stage and they step into the shoes. And like the way that you've constructed this piece is just brilliant. And there's not really any other words that I can think of to describe it, other than it's so brilliant, and every decision that you watch on stage, you can just see the thought process that was put behind it because every piece was so clear and particular and precise, you know.

[43:20] Jeffrey L. Page: And uh I I just have to applaud both you and Diane. I wonder too, like with the co-directing thing, like is that something that you had ever experienced or ever like um how just how that works in figuring out, you know, if you think of a choice, do you run it by Diane and or and vice versa, and then you present it to the performers? Like, how does that work?

[43:43] Jeffrey L. Page: Yeah, it that's basically how it works. Is uh it's you know, think of think of um think of a producing team, right? Like one person is one person is really good at the engineering, and the other person is really good at the at whatever the other thing is, and they come together and they make the perfect team. She is uh she's really interested in um in in ideas around feminism.

[44:27] Jeffrey L. Page: Yeah. And I'm interested in in ideas around feminism too, but she's really interested, and she's she's very um well versed in the history of feminism and what that means, and she has a different kind of relationship than I have with with feminism. Um specifically interested in uh in being black in race politics of America, the the race politics of America. And I'm sure that she's interested in race politics of America too, but I have a I think I have a different kind of um a different kind of relationship with race politics in America.

[45:22] Jeffrey L. Page: I you know, I I think I have a different kind of trauma with race politics in America than Diane might have. Doesn't mean it's it's bad or good, it's just a different kind of relationship. And so when you put those two things together, um we always act as a team. So if I have an idea, the first the first person I call is Diane.

[45:54] Jeffrey L. Page: Did you see Katanji did you see Katan the Katanji hearing? Wouldn't it be interesting if we if we created that picture, you know, of John, like what if Katanji is John Adams? Like the way Katanji was sitting at that tiny little table and taking all of these people's stuff. Like, you know, and you know, it, oh Diane, did you see, did you see this? And did you see like we, you know, we have tons of text messages, text messages of, you know, did you see this and did you see that? And did you, oh my God, January 6th. Oh my God, that's crazy. Oh my God, George Floyd, oh my God, like we've had tons and tons of conversations around this stuff.

[46:46] Jeffrey L. Page: So we've been building this up, you know, for almost uh four years. We've been in conversation with each other about about these concepts and these ideas, you know, um, and what our hope is with respect to shaking an audience. And when I say shaking an audience, what I mean is um it let can if we could imagine like a just imagine uh a priest, right? A priest going about a writ uh a particular ritual, the sacrament of a priest, right? He does the thing and he pours the thing, and then he lifts the thing up and he says the thing, and then he reaches for the thing, and then that happens.

[47:43] Jeffrey L. Page: Now let's imagine if this priest in the midst of it all pauses, just pauses. I couldn't tell you. I would probably think he forgot something. Why why do you think he might have forgotten something? Because I feel like that may be what I may do. Like if I forget something, I freeze, and I start to like think about what it is that I forgot. So I guess what I'm getting at is maybe the thing that that gives him pause is maybe he's visited by a spirit.

[48:40] Jeffrey L. Page: Maybe there's something that he sees that strikes him, and he can't move. So that is so it's a rupture. It's a rupture. Like, you know, the you know, he does, he's going about the the ritual, he does the this and he does the that and he does the this and he and he does it that, and then he's supposed to keep doing the thing, and then he just he stops. Because he sees something that is either in a good way or a bad way out of alignment with the with the natural ritual of what's happening.

[49:21] Jeffrey L. Page: Right. And that's what we want wanted the audience to feel. We wanted the audience to feel shaken up a bit, where you're not simply gonna going to sit through a show, and you know, this is gonna happen, and then you're gonna applaud, and that's gonna happen, that's gonna happen. But there's a moment where it's like, whoa, what just happened? Right. And then you you you you go back into you know into the show and in your mind and all of that other stuff. So I think we were both really interested in finding those moments um that really kind of shake and rattle the audience. Um that that that that was the that was the thing.

[50:16] Jeffrey L. Page: Does that does that answer your question?

[50:18] Eli Tokash: Yeah, absolutely. Just the the process of you two is it it's fascinating. I'd never seen, I don't know if this is ever the first time that we've seen two directors on Broadway work on the same piece, but I feel like I've never seen that. Um I'm curious, you know, we we talked about you know, with the billboards and with modern day America, and you know, you don't often see in the rooms, you you often are one of the only black men, and you are you don't see many faces like you, and as someone in this industry who is on the creative team, and you know, you have the creative side of the industry. Do you put I guess not pressure on yourself, but like what does it mean to you to you know, kind of be someone that can say, I can tell this story in the right way, and I can use authentic stories, and I want to make sure that we do hear these stories from the Native American perspective or the queer perspective or whatever the perspectives that you were talking about earlier, and making sure those stories are told and they're told and represented correctly.

[51:26] Jeffrey L. Page: So I have a couple of different thoughts on that. I I think number one, I think everyone has a perspective on something. Yeah. And I think the right way is a perspective that's true to your own perspective and how you view the world. Um, the beautiful thing about theater is you are building theater in in collaboration with many, many, many other designers and artists. Right.

[52:06] Jeffrey L. Page: So as a as the director, you're only you're only conducting energy. You're not, you know, sometimes you sometimes you you uh you provoke the conversation, but most of the time you are conducting energy. Let's imagine that I'm a conductor at the center of a humongous uh world-class uh uh symphony, okay? And let's imagine that I have a a gentleman here to my left who has been playing his violin. Let's say he's 80 years old and he's a master. He's a master, right? Let's say he's been playing his violin, you know, for 70 plus years, and here I am, you know, barely 40 years old, you know, and I'm conducting, right? What is my job?

[53:16] Jeffrey L. Page: Do I turn to this to this person to this master, and do I teach him how to play his violin? Or am I simply is my job to listen to everyone, listen to everything that he's giving me, and everyone, everything that these people over here are giving me, and so on and so forth, and and and I'm trying to find a way to make it legible to the audience who is paying attention, right? So it's so I believe that it's not my job to turn to this master violinist and to say, you know, if you hold your fingers like this and you do this and you do that, you know, you could get a better sound of it. That's not my job.

[54:01] Jeffrey L. Page: My job is is to is to is to put everyone on the same page, is to somehow get everyone's and and all of their brilliance together on the same page, and for and for us to tell a story, a story uh that is in harmony, sometimes a story that's in disharmony, sometimes a story that's that is in unison. That's my job is to is to get us all because if we have all agreed that we are in harmony, then we have all agreed that we are in harmony.

[54:44] Jeffrey L. Page: And it's my job to make sure that I am the custodian of making sure that we are all in harmony. If we are all in disharmony, it's my job to make sure that we are we are that the key is is a is a discordant key that is that it should rub you and and shriek in the in the way to make the audience uh you know shiver a bit, you know, and we have all agreed upon that. If we have all agreed that we are in unison, then we have all agreed that we are in unison.

[55:21] Jeffrey L. Page: And it's my job to keep us right there what we have agreed on. So as a director, it's my job to be at the center of the lighting design, the costume design, the scenic design, the sound design, the music design, the vocal design, as well as the actors on stage, as well as the choreography design. It's my job to sit directly in the middle of that and say, okay, okay, so what about this? But the the the costume designer doesn're they're attempting to uh to be in accordance with the bigger vision, if that makes sense.

[56:10] Eli Tokash: Right.

[56:11] Jeffrey L. Page: Right. And it's hard to be in accordance with the bigger vision if you're trying to pay attention to the bigger vision. Like you have to, you have to really you have to focus on your work. Focus on your work into your garden, right? And then the person whose job it is to make sure that everybody who is separately tending to their own garden, the pr like make sure that they have room that they can pull some of your reds, and they could pull some of your blues, and they can pull some of your purples, and they could pull some of your goldens in order to make an explosion of colors and tastes.

[56:52] Eli Tokash: Right.

[56:53] Jeffrey L. Page: Does that make sense?

[56:54] Eli Tokash: Yeah, absolutely. So so this isn't this, so I would say to to lay to lay this bigness of an artistic gesture solely on the director. I don't I don't think it's I don't think that's what it is. I think I think every artist is in dialogue. And every it really the the director's job is to is to provoke the conversation and to get the conversation moving and to pull us all on the same page.

[57:28] Jeffrey L. Page: So perhaps I don't know everything about this narrative over there, and perhaps I don't know everything about that narrative over there, but it's my job to provoke the conversation.

[57:41] Eli Tokash: Right.

[57:43] Jeffrey L. Page: Does that make sense?

[57:44] Eli Tokash: Total sense, yeah, for sure. I'm obsessed with the way that you tell these stories and using the imagery. It's so like you your mind is just a creative habitat, and it's just fascinating to listen to you speak and answer these questions. It's unreal. I've never had yeah, I've never had this perspective. It's actually quite unique, and I'm like getting lost in these stories that you are you're presenting and painting and all at the same time. It's very director of you. Um it's great. It's great.

[58:17] Eli Tokash: Um I guess like I I I want to let you go here. So I guess I'll ask you one last question. With 1776, uh and and of course your other Broadway credit here, Violet. Well, with 1776, you're a co-director and choreographer. And then Violet, you were also the choreographer. So I mean, you look at your resume and your work. You have very deep history in both directing and choreographing. And I was just wondering, you know, how the two may translate to each other if there are any similarities or if they're different in in many ways. But you know, I've always viewed a director as a choreographer for the scene, and then the big musical numbers would be like a choreographer. So I wonder what your perspective as someone who's always who has that wide, you know, history, a broad history, uh, with both of those experiences. I just wanted to hear your perspective on it.

[59:09] Jeffrey L. Page: I think uh so there used to be there used to be um uh this thing that was called a a a music a musical a musical a direction a director of musical staging. Oh so that will I believe that that was like in the 40s and 50s. Um you know, you were like the director of musical staging, you know. Uh and then and then, you know, I think this thing kind of grew into choreographer. So so you know it it really depends on the person's um, it depends on the person's process, right?

[1:00:01] Yeah.

[1:00:01] Jeffrey L. Page: So with with in my mind, um, I believe that choreography is its own department. Like lighting is a department and sound is a department and scenic design is a department. I believe that choreography is its own department. Right this idea that I can pull together uh, you know, choreography really quickly by myself without a team. Um I think it's a it's uh a it's a bit ludicrous, you know, in the same way that that the lighting designer has a team and the sound designer has a team, and but they all are looking for the the design is is leaning on the the lead person's design. So the the the leading lighting designer and the scenic designer and so forth, but there's a team to pull all of that together. Imagine imagine if scenic did not have a team and and the scenic designer was running around hanging up everything and making everything like it would be crazy, you know.

[1:01:20] So I I believe that choreography is a design element.

[1:01:26] Jeffrey L. Page: Yeah, I think all of these design elements are attributes of telling a story. And choreography is an at is a design element that helps to tell the story. And so again, the director sits in the center of that. And the director is the director's job is not to turn into one of the colors.

[1:02:01] Eli Tokash: Right.

[1:02:01] Jeffrey L. Page: And pick the colors that make sense for the narrative that is being told. Right. You have some, and I've seen some situations where um a choreography-headed person who did not have their eyes on the dramaturgy nor the narrative, um, but were more interested in the choreography. Um, but were more interested in the choreography. I've I've seen I've seen instances that I will not name. I've seen instances where the narrative gets lost. It just gets lost. You don't even know what you're looking at because the the choreographer has just gone on this tangent of like choreography, right?

[1:02:51] Right.

[1:02:52] Jeffrey L. Page: I believe that choreography is a design element. George C. Wolf, and I I actually get this from Janine Tassori, who's a very good friend of mine and a mentor of mine. She said, um, we were in violet rehearsal, and she said, do not luxuriate. And she said, she said, I get that from George Wolf. And what that means is like imagine if if we start to sing a song and we and this note happens, this beautiful note happens, and we're like, oh, this is such a beautiful note. Oh my God. And then we allow that, and then we allow that note to take lead, and that note goes this way and that way. But we had we had a trajectory, and that note has taken us away from our trajectory. That's called luxuriating. Do not luxuriate. So it's the director's job to make sure that we don't luxuriate, that we stay on course.

[1:03:56] So it's the director's job that when she or he picks up purple from the crayon box, that the whole painting doesn't turn into purple, right?

[1:04:17] And he he or she picks up red from the crayon box, the whole painting doesn't turn into red.

[1:04:25] Yeah.

[1:04:26] Jeffrey L. Page: Like we have a we have a we have a job. That your job is to yeah, your job is to draw a tree. That's what it is. And I need the purple to do this, and I need the red to do that, right? I need the purple to make this pop. I mean, I need the red to make this pop. But if I start, if I pick up the red, and I say, oh, this red is so pretty. Oh my god, I'm gonna use it more. I want to use it more. You want to use it more. That is called luxuriating.

[1:04:53] Right.

[1:04:55] Jeffrey L. Page: And and it's the director's job to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Remember, we have a job to do.

[1:05:01] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[1:05:01] Yeah.

[1:05:01] Jeffrey L. Page: We have we have to get to the finish line.

[1:05:05] Jeffrey L. Page: So these are two different, these are two different things, right? And I think it's possible to do both, you know, especially if you if you have training in both. Um, but these are essentially two different things. Choreography, choreography is the dramaturgy of how of choreography is the dramaturgy of gesturism in the body in motion.

[1:05:33] Right.

[1:05:34] Jeffrey L. Page: As it relates to the bigger dramaturgy of the of the of the story in question. Directing is something very different. Directing directing is the story in question, and how do I pick the right the right design elements and the right crayons to color with.

[1:05:55] Eli Tokash: Yeah, and that goes back it totally does. And it goes back to what you were even saying earlier on how you know theater is a collaboration, you know. That's like the bottom line. It's not you know, one person stealing the show. There's so many different elements in it for a reason, and if they don't all complement each other, well, then the story is just not gonna get across in the most genuine way, you know, or in the most, you know, impactful way, right? So it totally makes sense the way that you you kind of painted that picture as well.

[1:06:27] Um, I love it.

[1:06:28] Eli Tokash: It's so cool. Jeffrey, I mean, I I can't thank you enough for taking the time out of your day. I know we ran a little long, uh, but I could literally talk and listen to you talk for for hours, literally. You're like a motivational speaker uh of theater and and art. It's amazing. It's wonderful. Seriously. I I can't thank you enough. And you absolutely deserve to take a bow. So I appreciate you a lot.

[1:07:00] Jeffrey L. Page: Thank you, Eli, so much. I really appreciate it. And I really, really commend you for for the work that you're doing. So applause, applause to you as well.

[1:07:09] Eli Tokash: Thank you so much, Eli. I appreciate it. And this is just uh, we will be seeing a lot more from you. And I can't wait to follow you along and follow those journeys because I'm I'm a big fan. So I just wanted to let you know.

[1:07:23] Jeffrey L. Page: Thank you, Eli. From your mouth to God's ears.

[1:07:27] Eli Tokash: Yeah, thank you.

[1:07:28] Eli Tokash: Take about Jeffery L. Page.

[1:07:31] Eli Tokash: Come on. That episode was so much fun. He's literally done so much. I mean, we didn't even get to talk about his Emmy Award for his choreography. I didn't even get to talk to him about so you think you can dance and and the commercial dance that he's done and Beyonce and Mariah Carey tours and all the things. I could have talked to this man for literally hours.

[1:07:51] Hours on end.

[1:07:52] Eli Tokash: And uh for those of you who are, you know, 1776 fans in particular, I absolutely love the show. But we will uh get more into that with next week's episode. So I did have to save some questions for next week's episode as well, because we are are gonna be talking more about it. And we talk about it on this episode. And isn't his storytelling so great? I'm obsessed with his storytelling.

[1:08:12] But Jeffery, I again, can't thank you enough for for coming on and sharing all those wonderful stories. What he had to say about, you know, what it was like to be in the industry as a person of color and what it's like to be kind of like leading the industry as a director and choreographer, hiring people and all of that things, all of that and like what he's looking for. And when he steps into an audition room and this and the work that excites him that he chooses, it's just wonderful. And there's so much to digest with this episode. There was a lot of great conversations happening and meaningful conversations happening. So I hope you all enjoyed it and appreciated it.

[1:08:49] And that being said, tune in to next week's episode because next week's episode is probably the biggest one of the year. So excited for it.

[1:08:56] Eli Tokash: But until then, I wanted to wish everyone a happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate, as that has officially begun from last week's episode, that is. And um, I know we're already a few days in. But uh then, of course, I also want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas to those who celebrate that. Obviously, that's not till later this week. I don't even know what day it is, and I don't even know how many more days there are till it. So I'm not even gonna try. But yes, Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy holidays, all the things, whatever you celebrate, thinking about you. We hope that you're having a wonderful holidays with families and whatever you may be doing to celebrate. And we're wishing you the best here at Take A Bow.

[1:09:35] So until then, I hope to see you all next week. And I hope we're able to uh accompany you with your travels for the holidays, whether you're going to visit family or are going on a little holiday vacation with some time off of work for Hanukkah, New Year's, Christmas, whatever you may celebrate. We hope that uh we can give you all some entertainment along the way and to your safe travels if you are traveling.

[1:09:59] Eli Tokash: So stay tuned and be sure to keep following our social media and all the things because we are putting out uh red carpet opening night and content that are take a bow related, and we have a bunch of interviews with celebrities and all the things. So go check that out, and that's happening just at random. So be sure to check in if you're interested in looking at that stuff. We will have an Ohio State Murders one out, so you should be checking that out if you haven't already.

[1:10:25] Eli Tokash: So thank you everyone. Have a great week and happy holidays and safe travels if you are traveling. And I can't wait to see you all next week. Bye everyone. Have a great week.

[1:10:39] Eli Tokash: For this episode's curtain call, I would like to recognize a few people who also deserve to take a bow. This podcast would not be possible without the help of Dory Barenstein, Alan Seals, Kimberly Garrett, and the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Next in line to take a bow are our fabulous editors, Jessica Gorin, who edits the audio of the podcast that you just listened to, and Tessie Tokash, who edits the videos and visuals for this podcast. And how about a bow for our executive producer, Chris Greiner? And our final bow are extra special to the patrons Brian Thompson, Pat McMahon, the listeners of PCC, as well as all of the other patrons for their continued support. If you're interested in becoming a patron, go to Patreon.com slash TAB.

[1:11:20] Eli Tokash: If you enjoyed this week's episode, make sure to subscribe on the platform that you are currently listening to this on, or go check out our YouTube where you can watch the episode. You can also subscribe, like, and comment on there as well. If you're more into the regular social media and want to follow us, you can do that at takeabout podcast across all social media platforms. The music of this podcast was made by Nikki Torsha and Cormac Collinon, and the logo was created by Giselle Bustos. And that wraps up this episode's curtain call. Thank you all again for listening to this week's episode, and I can't wait to see you next week. Bye everyone. Have a great week.