This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Eli Tokash: Hello everyone and welcome to episode 161 of Take A Bow. I'm your host Eli Tokash and this week we have another great episode for you folks. We have none other than Javier Muñoz on the podcast today. So excited to bring you these stories. He is, some of these stories that he was just willing to share with us, it was unbelievable. I was kind of just like in awe and I just wanted him to just keep telling me these stories. I mean we hear stories from his relationship to Lin-Manuel and the process of In The Heights and the process of Hamilton. The fact that he was never brought on to Hamilton to play Hamilton throughout the entire like beginning processes is fascinating and you'll hear all about it and I'll let him tell the stories and you can hear from him.

But before we get over to that, as always, we got to talk about some Broadway news because there's been a lot and you know what? This Broadway news segment is going to date a little bit because we're going back just a bit because the past couple of episodes have been a little long on the long end and these are things that I wanted to talk about, share with you all that I haven't been able to sneak into these episodes quite yet. With the long Tony episode, I talked a lot about my experience at the Tony Awards on Sunday in the Jesse Mueller episode and that was a long intro so I was like, I'll save it for Thursday and now, or Friday, now it's a Friday episode. Guys, let's take about Friday and so here we are.

So we have some news that you may have heard in the past like week or week and a half, maybe even two weeks, but I'm just telling you all why I'm now choosing to say it and why it's a little dated if you've already heard it. Anyways, we'll get to it. Andrew Lloyd Webber is back, baby! No surprise that didn't take too long. I figured we weren't gonna have no Andrew Lloyd Webber. Well, I guess we still won't have Andrew Lloyd Webber on the Broadway, but we are getting a new reimagined version of Cats and we're getting it off-Broadway at the Perelman. I believe that's how you say it. I have to double-check that, but it is the Perelman Performing Arts Center and this is its first season. So it's an inaugural season.

We're getting a reimagined version of it. It's gonna be like ballroom inspired version of Cats. So it's still gonna be like his music and everything, but I can assume that the choreography and staging and all the things, all that jazz is a bit different and I'm excited to see how this one kind of works out. It looks interesting and this is very exciting for the PAC, as they're calling it, to have this as their first show. It's quite the feat. They've got some very cool things happening in its inaugural season. So congratulations to them and we'll look forward to seeing Cats back on the Broadway. Well, I guess off-Broadway.

[3:15] Eli Tokash: Anyways, moving forward. Speaking of reimagined, okay, I don't know what's going on here, but it's like reimagined the future of Broadway. It seems to be like a very big trend where it's like, oh, we're getting a reimagined version of this, we're getting a reimagined version of that. And I'm thinking about reimagining this show and all of this, but I don't know. It seems like it's trending that way. Hopefully not, but we'll see because that just means a ton of revivals and we need some new works because we always love new works. But with that being said, Diana the Musical is getting a reimagined version of their sensation that was on Broadway for about a month or so. And that's going to be happening in London, in the West End, starring Kara Young and Billie Eugene Jones and J.O. Saunders.

Obviously more of the cast is going to be announced soon, but they did announce those three leads, which is very exciting. And that's happening very soon. I know some of us love Diana the Musical and some of us hate Diana the Musical. There's a very love-hate, no in-between type of relationship with the show. And of course, it's on Netflix for you to go, you know, make that choice for yourself if you've never seen it. It's interesting, and I look forward to seeing the reimagined version of it and seeing what they do to, you know, improve or not improve itself. So yeah, it'll be great.

[4:48] Eli Tokash: Um, okay, I'm very excited for this next announcement. And this literally, like, dropped, this news dropped when I released last episode. Last episode was very waitress-heavy on The Waitress Talk. So maybe y'all were just, like, tired of it anyways. But I'm very excited because Sara Bareilles announced that she's working on a new musical. I don't know about y'all, but I'm very excited for this. And, you know, there's very few pop singers that, like, I guess, I don't even know if you can call, I mean, she is a pop singer. But, like, is she anymore? Like, she hasn't come out with, like, a pop album in years. And she's been doing musical theater for so long. This is an interesting debate. Like, what is Sara Bareilles right now? Is she a performer? Is she an actress? I mean, she did a Broadway, she's done multiple Broadway shows. She's a Tony nominee for both writing and performing. And so it's, like, interesting. I'll spark that debate online. Don't worry.

[5:54] Eli Tokash: Anyways, she's working on a new musical. And I'm so excited for it because Waitress was a freaking masterpiece. And so I can't wait to see what she has in store for us now and next. But no, no date on, like, you know, when that's gonna happen. I just know it's in the works. But it's interesting to see these, you know, the Kelly Clarksons and the Sara Bareilles start to work on their own musicals. I doubt it'll be, like, about her, Sara Bareilles, per se. But I'm curious to see what it will be about. So stay tuned on that. We have exciting news coming from the West End. We talked about the West End. Oh, I guess I should have said this after the London thing. But we have exciting news saying that Shucked is going to the West End.

This was announced a couple weeks ago. This is kind of part of that news. Shucked is going to the West End in 2024, along with an upcoming guest, Matthew Broderick, bringing his wife and scene partner, Sarah Jessica Parker, that did the show on Broadway, obviously. They are going to the West End in 2024 in January for Plaza Suite. Very exciting stuff. Both of the shows that we've seen on Broadway, we love having a Broadway success go to the West End, and vice versa. You know, the West End success with Ann Juliet came to Broadway, had a success of its own. Very exciting stuff. We love to see it. We love to share. Shout out to the West End.

[7:28] Eli Tokash: Okay, moving forward. We have some casting announcements. Oh my god, these casting announcements, I'm very excited about. There's been a lot of casting announcements, so there's not like all of them, but there are a lot. So just bear with me. I'm just going to read them. I'm not going to talk about them because they'll take too long, but I'm very excited for all of these. That's what I'll say. Jeremy Jordan is coming back to Little Shop of Horrors. I didn't get to see him the first time, so I'm very excited to see it, hopefully, this time. Ellie Kemper is going into Peter Pan Goes Wrong. Big Office fan, so excited for that one. And of course, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and all the things. Jordan Fisher is departing Sweeney Todd, sad face, because I thought he was incredible and deserved some sort of recognition for his performance as Anthony in Sweeney Todd.

Just so freaking good. And then The Wiz, I came on here and kind of did like a Wiz dream cast, but The Wiz announced its cast. Not all of it, obviously, but they have a lot of their main characters. And so that's going to feature Wayne Brady, Debra Cox, Melody A. Betts, Alan Mingo Jr., Kyle Ramar Freeman, Philip Johnson Richardson, and Avery Wilson. That's what we have so far. That's a pretty loaded cast, not going to lie. So I don't hate any of these casting announcements. I definitely did assume that it was going to be other people, but I'm thrilled with the announcement so far. I think these are very exciting and very good. And we get some new talent, names that we don't hear all the time, so I'm okay with it.

And going back to Jordan Fisher departing Sweeney Todd, it was announced just recently that Daniel Yearwood is going to succeed Jordan Fisher as Anthony in Sweeney Todd. So they already casted that. It was a quick two-week notice moment for Jordan Fisher and a quick replacement. So yay, Slay, for all of those wonderful people, including Daniel, who is replacing Jordan in Sweeney Todd.

[9:37] Eli Tokash: Cool. The last bit of news that I'll leave you all with is something happening this coming weekend. So I'll talk a little bit about it, you know, in the episodes next week as well. That's right, I won't see you guys till next week now. So sad, till Tuesday. But next Friday and Saturday on June 23rd and June 24th, Playbill is doing its Pride celebration from Times Square, which is very exciting. And we have a loaded, you know, lineup set for you folks. So I am hoping to be in attendance if I'm not covering the Once Upon a One More Time opening night. Hopefully I can do both, but I feel like it's just going to be really tricky. But with that being said, live in Times Square, literally just like giving performances and roaming the streets until they go to the theater, is going to be James T. Lane, Andrew Keenan Bolger, L. Morgan Lee, Titus Bergus, The Companies of Ann Juliet, A Beautiful Noise, The Book of Mormon, Chicago, The Cottage, Fat Ham, Funny Girl, Hadestown, Hamilton, Kimberly Akimbo, Life of Pi, The Lion King, Little Shop of Horrors, New York, New York, Parade, Peter Pan Goes Wrong, The Play That Goes Wrong, Shucked, Six, Some Like It Hot, Titanic, and Wicked.

Whoa! Ugh, that was a mouthful. Sorry if you need to hear that again, and if that was too fast, go back 15 seconds. I'm so sorry. I don't want to say those all again and bore you all. But nonetheless, very exciting, because we're going to get performances from all of those wonderful shows that I just named. It's going to be hosted by Titus Bergus. The performances and all of that. But we'll also see some co-hosting between L. Morgan Lee and Andrew Keenan Bolger and James T. Lane a little earlier in the day. So it's super exciting. I love when Broadway comes together and they all are in one location. We all come together to, you know, spread awareness for something or raise money for something.

And this is totally exactly what Playbill Pride is, celebrating Pride Month. And all of these shows are coming to represent and perform. And we'll see some of our faves on the street of New York and live in Times Square. Like, how fun is that? So come join us. Come join us. Hopefully I will be there and we can all come say hi and hang out. And so that, again, will be on Friday, June 23rd and Saturday, June 24th. Very exciting stuff.

[12:02] Eli Tokash: All right. With all of that being said, I think it's time to turn it over to this wonderful episode with Javier Muñoz. Talk about Hamilton in the Heights, all the things. It is a blast and I cannot wait for you all to hear it. So without further ado, Javier Muñoz, curtain up.

[12:23] Eli Tokash: Okay, so today we are joined by a performer who has played two of the most iconic roles on Broadway in some of the most revolutionizing shows that Broadway has ever seen. You may know him as Alexander or Usnavi, but today we'll get to know him as Javi. So welcome to Take a Bow, Javier Muñoz.

[12:43] Javier Muñoz: Thank you. Hello, hello. Oh, my God. Thank you for doing this. I'm so excited to chat with you today.

[12:50] Eli Tokash: Likewise. And that was a beautiful introduction. Thank you for that.

[12:56] Javier Muñoz: Thank you. As you can tell, that took a lot of hard work. I've been sitting on that one for quite some time.

[13:04] Eli Tokash: Listen, I got to tell you, so the first time I ever saw Hamilton, it was you. I saw you. And so for about a year of my life, I only knew Hamilton as you. And now I've seen the show several times. But your performance in that just blew me away. Yeah, no, the whole show blew me away. But you were a true standout. And I loved every time that you got to go on and following you, your journey since. The way I usually like to start these things, though, is asking people, how did we get here? What inspired you to want to tell stories and to entertain each other that led you to where you are today?

[13:45] Javier Muñoz: That's actually kind of a long road.

[13:53] Javier Muñoz: Condensed. I didn't want to do this when I was a kid. Everyone in my family has a creative streak, but no one pursued it professionally. So I mean, musicians, dancers, singers, all you know, everybody had something. Visual arts, you know, but I didn't have an example of someone pursuing this professionally. So the practical thing that I fell in love with was science. So I was a full on science nerd. I was in love and focused on astrophysics. That's what I wanted to do with my life. I had no inkling to like, be on stage. It really took me by surprise. It was freshman year in high school. So the high school I went to, I'm born and raised here in Brooklyn, New York. And the high school I went to was kind of like a magnet school.

So it had a college campus kind of structure, not a typical, you know, public high school. So you could have, it wasn't majors, but you could have things you focused on, right? So my friends focused on theater. I was there for science because the school had a planetarium. So yeah, I was like, I was in heaven. It was going to be like, this is everything. Totally. So freshman year, now this is like 1989, 1990. Brooklyn's a way tougher neighborhood than it is now. And so the kind of street strategy was, you know, you made sure you were in a group, right? Strength in numbers, never by yourself, right? Totally. So after school, the school buses and everything were just chaotic. So I opted to go to the library after school every day, do my homework, do projects, and wait until the library closed, which is when my friends got out of rehearsal.

So I would meet them at rehearsal, and then we'd like take, you know, a parent would pick us up, or we would take the bus home together, or, you know, it was safe. It was way safer to do that. So, plus I got all my work done and I got home and I would have the night off, you know? I was like, no, homework's not right. That is the best feeling. It was a good strategy. So, you know, the way that the theater was set up is there was this, you know, huge lobby, and then the theater doors, and then the big, you know, auditorium stage, everything. So I always waited in the lobby. I never went in. And it was just this random day. It was, you know, the first half of freshman year, and I just thought, you know what, I'm going to sneak in and just take a peek and see what's going on.

You know, I'll be quiet and respectful. I, you know, I snuck into the theater. I sat in the back. The house lights were dark. They were teching. So my friends are on stage in costume. They're stop and go. They're doing sun in the morning, wind at night. Manny, get your gun. Oh, my God. And I'm sitting in the back. And I'm just like, I'm just watching this process and this thing. And I'm like, why am I not doing this? This is cool. And I can, I mean, I can, it was so, that moment is so clear in my memory. I can remember where I was sitting, exactly what I could see. I can remember, like, it's sense memorized. I remember the air. I remember the feeling I had inside when I was watching it. And I, I literally, it was like something clicked.

And I was like, why am I not doing this? So the next musical was The King and I. And I auditioned for The King and I, and I get cast as an Amazon guard. Period. I have no lines. I don't sing a note. And I'm absolutely certain that this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. There was no, it was no question. Science was gone. Wow. This is what I was going to do. And thus began this struggle with my family about switching gears because none of them were about it. They were just not practical. Oh, wow. But yeah, that's, that was the, that was the sort of launch, I guess. And then my, one of my acting teachers who's still in my life, this teacher still comes to see everything I do. He, Scott Martin is his name.

And he, he's, he's one of the most amazing influences in my life. And he, um, senior year, uh, he was directing Sweeney Todd and I was cast as Sweeney. Oh, period. And it was my last, yeah, it was awesome. And it was my last, you know, show in high school. He had a former student who had become an agent and he called this student to come see me in the show. And so about a month before graduating, this agent comes in to see me. We have, um, we meet, he calls me in for a meeting. Um, he's with the Fifi Oscar Agency, which at the time was like the top under 18 agency in theater and film and everything here in New York City. And they signed me. So a month before graduating, I had my first agent, all thanks to this teacher, you know, who really believed in me to this day.

And so that, that really changed my family's idea of like, Oh wait, he's serious about this. He's really wants to do this, but they didn't know that no one had a clue how to support me. So I was learning by the seat of my pants, um, really getting my butt kicked when I was like 18 and watching the auditions and like, I didn't have audition material. I didn't know what that was. And like, just scrambling, scrambling to like, get, you know, myself in a good position, but I, you know, that's, that's the real start at 17. Wow. That's amazing. And it's kind of like, I mean, not really late, but it is like a late starter, I guess, like after high, like midway through high school. Um, and to have the success that you've had, you know, it's quite extraordinary, truly.

So, I mean, obviously theater is still a part of your life is science are all still part of your life. Do you still do that stuff? They're interested in any of it? I mean, yes, I, there's, there's, but that part of my brain, it, you know, works kind of over time because to me it, it absolutely, you know, theater and performing and, and science are, are the same mind for me. Right. So like if I'm going to, if I have a theory that I want to investigate and I'm going to take things apart, take the pieces apart to look at them and ask the questions. It's the same thing when you're, when you're sitting there with a character in a script, you're just taking the pieces apart and looking at all the elements and making sense of it and asking questions.

And, and so I, I don't, like, I don't feel like I function any differently, but, but science is, is it's like a light hobby now. I definitely, you know, I definitely like left it in, in, in the, in the past, but you know, I still, I can't help, but gravitate towards it. I'm a sci-fi fan. I love science, you know, I'm reading all the magazines still. So, you know, you're a big superhero guy. Oh, unfortunately. So I love it. That's amazing. It's two of your favorite things, science and entertainment, you know, like, wait, what can you do? Okay. So starting a petition, Javier to play a superhero, we're going to manifest it. We're going to manifest it. Come on. Yes. Trust me. We will too. As theater fans, we will take it.

That's incredible. So talk to me about, you know, eventually through, I don't know, years go by, I guess, and out of high school and eventually, you know, you get to be a part of one of the most like iconic shows on Broadway, such as In the Heights and you played Usnavi. Like you didn't play, whatever you said, Amazon guard. Amazon guard. Right. You know, you had some lines in this one, just a little bit more. Yeah. Like, what was that like? Do you remember taking your first bow on Broadway? I mean, what was that like for you? Yes. So, okay. So there's again, another lengthy explanation here. Yeah. Because the dynamic between Lin and I is born creating In the Heights. Wow. So our friendship is born and how we create together is born and they're very different things, right?

Our friendship is what grounds us and roots us. Like, you know, we're the two kids in class that the teacher needs to separate. You know what I'm saying? That's the foundation of us. And then you cut to us professionally. And I think because of our friendship there, we can do something that can only be done between he and I, I've never seen anyone have this kind of dynamic ever in a room, but we create a character together. So we created Usnavi together and we created Hamilton together. Right. Right. So it's not one actor doing this thing. And I know lots of people don't quite like people hear that and don't quite process it. And I'm like, yeah, I know, because it's never happened before. Because we're the only two people I know who can do that without their ego getting in the way or anything.

We're just connected that way. So going back to In the Heights, it is 2002. And I have been living in San Francisco and I moved back to New York. And as you know, on my platform, I'm very open about my HIV status. I have been open with my status my entire journey. It is very important to me to do that, to use my platform for that work. So it's 2002, when I've tested positive in San Francisco, when I moved back to New York. And my parents in that same year, they're alive, they're healthy, they're safe and well. But at the time in 2002, they both within six months of each other were diagnosed with two different types of cancer. Oh, my God. So the three of us become this kind of unit of support.

And I'm not, at that time, I just wasn't the type that Broadway was casting. The male ensemble type was definitely not the skinny kid. I just wasn't booking anything. And I decided because I couldn't financially contribute enough to my parents and support, that I would quit. So I left the business. I became a general manager at a restaurant, a brand new restaurant in Hell's Kitchen. Get out of here. And yeah. And about maybe like a month or two into that work, my friend Josh, Josh Walden, we went to college together and he's written his first musical and he's like, badgering me to do this performance. He wants to do like a backers performance to get producers on board. Yeah. And he's written this for me.

And he's like, relentlessly, relentlessly chasing me. So I'm like, okay, okay, okay. So I decide that's going to be my swan song, my last thing. And then I got to focus on making money, being insured. It's your last swan song. Yeah. So I decide that this musical is going to be the last thing I do. Yeah. And then I'm focusing on, you know, making money and supporting my parents and supporting myself. So first day of rehearsal, there's an actress, there's only one actress in the room, I don't know. And she's staring at me the whole time. And I'm really uncomfortable, to be quite honest. But the next day, this is the day of beepers, right? We didn't have cell phones. Yep. So she pages me and leaves me a voicemail.

And I listened to it. And she's explaining that she's part of a new musical. It's in development. They are looking to recast a role. And she thinks I'd be perfect for it. And, you know, let her know if I'm interested. So I am a firm believer in the universe. And the messages that we get sent, you know, it'll never be obvious. It's always going to be something that comes out of nowhere. And if you're not paying attention, you might miss that message. So I literally was like, I have to see what this is. So I invite her to the restaurant, we sit down in between shifts and between lunch and dinner. And she hands me a script. And this is also the days of Discman. So I had, you know, we don't have like, MP3s or whatever we have now.

Never heard of it. I'm just kidding. My portable 8-track. So I literally, she hands me the CD, I pop it in. And I'm listening to the first song. And this is, I don't know it yet, but I'm listening to Lin rap the opening number of In the Heights. Oh, stop it. Yeah. So I listened to the opening number, we talk about the project, then we have lunch and I asked her for time, like, can I have tonight to like, read the script and listen to it and then get back to you. So I go home, I mean, not even, I didn't wait until I got home. On my way home from work, I'm devouring that script. I'm devouring the music. And there's no, you know, this is, I've never seen at the

[27:46] Javier Muñoz: I have never seen a Latin piece, anything that's centered on us, as Latin people in this country, without there being crime, drugs, you know, prostitution, yada yada, making us look like thugs, caricatures, right? I'm reading the script, and I'm listening to this, and there's so much integrity, and there's so much dignity, and this could be my family on these pages. And I'm like, I'd be just an idiot if I don't audition for this. This is crazy. You have to. So I say yes to the audition. It's for two weeks at MTC. And that's when I sang a George Michael song for that audition. I've always sung pop songs, even before that was a thing. I always sang pop songs because I just, I didn't grow up on musical theater, right?

It was in my life, but it wasn't what I gravitated to. So I book it, and it's two weeks. I book a character who was eventually cut from the show. Nina had a brother named Lincoln, and I got cast as Lincoln. But this is when I meet Lynn. And we sit next to each other in rehearsal, and we have the same vocal line. And that was a real mistake on Lac's part, because we're just stupid. We're just like, you know, tweedledee and tweedledum, and just laughing the whole time. But that's where our friendship is born. And from that, eventually, the character of Lincoln gets cut. And the project goes to the Eugene O'Neill Theater Conference. And we have like, again, two weeks to nurse this baby and focus on it.

And it's that summer, same year. And this is 2005 now. So this is right. So this is like, I came back in 2002. 2005 is when I'm meeting Lynn. And I can't even tell you. So Tommy calls me and explains that, see, the O'Neill, the contract, Lynn cannot be Usnavi and composer. He can only be composer. Wow. No one has played Usnavi besides Lynn up until this point. Chiara, the book writer, has the idea to audition me for it. So Tommy calls me, I'm on tour. Tommy calls me, I'm in Arizona, to be quite honest, when he calls me. And he breaks the news that Lincoln is cut. But, you know, they're going a different route, like a whole thing. But they would like to see me for Usnavi because of the contractual, you know, thing.

I was like, Oh, okay. Okay. So, okay. I have like, a week to get these raps and rhymes in my bones. I audition for Usnavi. And, you know, long story short, too late, but I get into the audition, and I nail it. And that is literally where, like, that's the beginning of everything Lynn and I have done together. That's where it starts.

[31:06] Javier Muñoz: Wow. Because for a month, Lynn puts me through what he called rap school. This is the best. He burns these CDs, right? And every CD is a collection of songs, of hip hop songs, that are the hip hop songs that have influenced his writing. Wow. And so I'm listening. Yeah, he's got me listening to these songs for cadence, for inner rhyme schemes, for rhythms, you know, for the timbre of the voice, you know, this. So, he's literally, like, schooling me through this. And it's directly from him, right? I'm also, like, meeting his family, you know, the people who have influenced these characters. So, I'm living in his brain for a month before we get to the O'Neill. And that's the beginning of it, where he and I start creating Usnavi together, because he can't do Usnavi at the O'Neill.

So, like, literally, it's another actor, putting me, putting my print on this character, that they're going to keep. And, you know, like, for example, the reason that Usnavi brings a bottle of New Zealand Shiraz to dinner is because that's my favourite wine.

[32:23] Eli Tokash: Stop it!

[32:25] Javier Muñoz: That's my favourite red wine. I'm like, literally, Chiara put it into the piece. And it was like, what is happening? It's brilliant.

[32:34] Eli Tokash: It's brilliant. Yeah.

[32:35] Javier Muñoz: Yes. Wow. Because, like, that's what I'm saying is, like, suddenly, we are now building this guy together.

[32:41] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[32:43] Javier Muñoz: And it's the birthplace of everything that we have eventually, you know, will do. But then, as you asked, that first night, I was on the ensemble. And so, I was his understudy, as opposed to alternate with Hamilton. So, I would only go on when he was out, during In the Heights. And I wouldn't go on all the time, either. There were other understudies that, you know, needed the reps. So, I was dancing in the ensemble. That Blankenbuehler choreography kicking my tail.

[33:11] Eli Tokash: Oh, no, thank you.

[33:13] Javier Muñoz: And he is no joke, man. You got me ready.

[33:17] Eli Tokash: Right. It's beautiful, though, from an audience perspective. But those poor performers. Yeah.

[33:24] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, yeah.

[33:25] Eli Tokash: Too many times a week.

[33:27] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, right. It's brutal, man. So, yeah, I do remember my very first bow, the very first preview. I was all the way stage left. That was the last. That was my mark. I was the last person down front, stage left, singing home into the rafters. I just, I remember every breath of that, just like I remember that afternoon, or that first time in the auditorium in high school. I could tell you every detail. I can tell you every detail of that first night, our first preview.

[34:01] Eli Tokash: Wow.

[34:02] Javier Muñoz: Because I felt victorious, you know. The HIV didn't stop me. My parents were okay. And I just felt victorious that I made it.

[34:14] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[34:15] Javier Muñoz: So, yeah.

[34:15] Eli Tokash: That's fascinating. Because a lot of people, you know, like, some people are like, oh, no, I completely blanked out. Like, I couldn't tell you a thing. So, the fact that you were actually able to, like, be present with yourself is pretty, pretty amazing and cool to hear. I have so many questions coming out of that. First of all, how do I get that Lin-Manuel Diaz? Because I would love to know who influenced him. No, no, no. But it's like, his work is so brilliant. And he's like, that's such a cool experience for you. But I've got to really ask you, like, your parents going through what they were going through, and even yourself with HIV and everything, how were they throughout this process? Because, hey, you told them that you had a swan song about three years ago, and now you are doing musical theater.

And it's like, okay, well, then what's next after this? Or how long is this going to last? Like, were they okay? I know you said they were okay, like, maybe health-wise, but were they okay with you taking on In the Heights and doing it?

[35:17] Javier Muñoz: So, that's actually a really beautiful story. So, my parents, when we were at MTC, and I was playing Lincoln at the time, I invited my parents to the – so, on the last day, we had two presentations, and I invited my parents to the presentations. They came to the second one, the last one of the day. And we, you know, did the workshop, hugged everybody out, you know, went home with my folks, we were living in Quinney Island at the time. And they sit me down in the kitchen. And they basically tell me, you can't quit.

[35:57] Eli Tokash: Oh, wow.

[35:58] Javier Muñoz: You can't quit. You have to do this, and we'll figure it out. And so, that sealed the deal for me. Because then it was just like, you know what, I'm, I have to be, I have to listen. I have to listen to every single sign that's telling me this, this is where I belong, and fight for it.

[36:23] Eli Tokash: I think it's fair to say that it worked out.

[36:29] Javier Muñoz: I'm glad you listened to the sign. Wow. Because, I mean, it's true, like, your career, your performances are unforgettable, you know. And these shows, you know, who are the two, I don't know, if you ask me, most important shows the last 20 years on Broadway, you know, in the sense of truly revolutionizing it. And I guess we can move on to Hamilton. I mean, both of these shows just led the way for new works and diversity and all sorts of different things. And it's just been really cool to be alive to witness this new stage, I guess, of the theater life. But this story and journey that you went on with Hamilton, like, has to be something very cool as well, you know, as in The Heights. It started at The Public. Did you guys know, like, from the get go that, like, did you ever dream that this is what it was going to become?

[37:31] Javier Muñoz: Oh my god, no, no way. You can't possibly know. There's no way to know. That is like, there are so many random factors that have to be in place for something like this to happen. And it's not just about the work that you're doing. It's, you know, this particular piece coming out when it did, and the political climate that it did in this time that we were in. I mean, it just, it all fell into place. You know, even social media was starting to really get like, it find its strength and its importance and its relevance in our society. It didn't, you know, Twitter was nothing before that. You know, it's so it, there are so many things at play.

[38:15] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[38:15] Javier Muñoz: With Hamilton that aligned that we're just like, oh, here we go.

[38:22] Eli Tokash: It's so true. So, so listen, I was in, I was in Pippin on Broadway, and I had the same hair slash wig call for, as Ariana DeBose. So Ari comes down and she's getting her wig on and I'm getting my bald cap on and she's going, I think I'm going to put in my notice. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, I got approached to do this show. It's a little show called Hamilton. It's kind of weird. You know, it's about the historic founding father. You know, it's, it's different. I was like, and then come to find out like what it is and what it becomes. I'm like, what? Like, she like totally was so nonchalant about it and totally was like, yeah. I think I'm going to do it.

[39:18] Javier Muñoz: We had no idea.

[39:18] Eli Tokash: We had no idea.

[39:20] Javier Muñoz: It's so, it's incredible. But that, I mean, you put a group of people in a room of that caliber. I mean, that original company was, I mean, I don't know if there's ever been a cast like that on Broadway ever before. You know, it's truly incredible that to collaborate with those type of peoples and such high end performers had to be so fulfilling and so rewarding to see that success come through. What was the process like in the rehearsal room and being able to learn? Because those people, like good actors can only make you a better actor, you know?

[39:55] Javier Muñoz: Correct. That is absolutely correct. And, and, you know, this, this was another really long journey. So, I mean, Lin pitched his idea for the musical to the author of the book while I was still performing Usnavi. So, he literally came in one day and asked me to like, bolt out of the dressing room so he could use the dressing room to talk to Ron, Ron Chernow, you know, and like, pitch the idea to him. I was like, yep, you got it. Right. So, I like put my stuff in stage management so I could just like change, grab my stuff and just get out of there. So, like it starts there, you know, and that was like 2000, either nine or 10, I think nine. And I, I mean, my first time in the room, Lin was writing, he was so inspired.

Obviously, Ron said yes. And, and I just remember my first, my first time in the room was a workshop, you know, obviously a workshop. They were like, there was like, you know, me, Chris, Seth, Lin. It was like one other person. And it was like six songs. And Lac was at the piano. And we were just like, you know, it was called the Hamilton mixtape. We didn't even know what it was. And we were just like, you know, making music. We're just like the handful of us just in a room making music together. And, and then, you know, cut to over time, and Tommy's involved, and Chiara's coming in to like watch and give, you know, pow wow with and collaborate with Lin. And, and, you know, we, the character of Lawrence was being written for me. And so

[41:39] Javier Muñoz: So, as we're developing this first act, that's really, and it makes the most sense because the connection between Hamilton and Lawrence in the actual piece, it really, like you couldn't have anything easier than me and Lynn doing that, doing our friendship. It just made sense. And so, when it was a one act, it all made sense. It was really great. But then we started, and you know, everybody was coming. It was always a different combination of people. You know, David was in there a handful of times. And then Leslie was there, and then he wasn't there. And then Pippa was there, and she wasn't there. And Ari was there at one point. That's actually where I meet Ari. You know, so people are ebbing and flowing in the room.

It's based on availability. Lynn's just churning out material. So, you never know who you're going to be in the room with at any given time. You know, it's sort of all over the place. Nick Christopher is there for some time. You know, like, it's, we're all just sort of ebbing and flowing. And Lynn and Tommy start to devise Act Two. And the sort of mechanism is going to be the friends that surrounded Hamilton in Act One become his nemeses, if you will, in Act Two, with the exception of Lawrence becoming his son, Philip. So, cut to the very, like, I remember Lynn sending me a voicemail that was, he was like, brush up on your French, because you have to count in French. Oh, my God. Because I was like, okay, okay, got it.

Love it. Yeah, you know, so like, so there was, but that very first day, the very first day where we start to dip into Act Two, I'm standing at, you know, Lynn and I are face to face, standing at music stands, we're going through, blow them all away. And I'm taller than Lynn, I've got gray in my beard. And I'm, and I'm, and I'm looking, I'm just, I'm like, looking outside of myself at the moment and thinking, this makes no sense. I cannot be his son. Like, this, like, I'm older than Lynn, like, there's nothing about this dynamic. Like, you know, I don't think I'm a terrible actor, but I can't make myself small enough to be his kid. Like, I don't, I don't have that. There's only so much I can do.

It just doesn't make sense, you know. And to that end, you know, Andrew Chappelle covered everybody in the show. And so every time he went on for Philip, and he would stand, and he's this giant guy, you know, it always got a laugh. And he had to play into it. Because it was like, you know, we got to do it. Yeah. But knowing that, that it just, it didn't work. I felt like I had egg on my face. And Tommy and I got to talking. And it was just decided, like, you got to go with a younger actor, you got to go with somebody else. Thus, Anthony Ramos comes into the project as Lawrence Philip, and I leave the project. Wow. Yeah, I go to OSF, I do my first season at OSF. And then it's, I miss the official lab, I miss all that stuff.

But then what we do, what we have is, is this period of time where Lynn's about to have his first kid. We're about to go start rehearsals for the public, I get my offer for the public. And it's very much like we're getting the band back together, right? This is there, Seth is there, John is there, I'm there, you know, it's like, Oh, shoot, this is like, in the heights part, too. Okay. Yeah, it's just a reunion. That's really where the, I feel like the work begins, right? Because this is now, now that we're going to the public, this is everything you've just asked about when you're around these other great artists and actors, how that affects your work. A lot of these folks had no idea that I was involved with the project from the get.

They didn't know who I was. So, you know, and I didn't, I didn't want to come in, proving anything either. It was, I just knew that the room would not be prepared for what it's like for me and Lynn to work with each other. Oh, my gosh, two actors who are sharing a role and creating a role together. No one in that room. And it was very true. I would have conversations with like, I mean, pick someone, Renee, Leslie, I like actual conversations of like, should you be that good when you go up? And I'm like, Yes, that's why I'm here. Oh, my God, I'm here to knock it out the park for Lynn and Tommy. That's how we work. And like, and folks just like adjusting, like, I don't understand what this is.

And it's like, yeah, this is how we work. And you've never seen it before. Like you've never seen it before. This is unique to he and I. And so that's really where the meat and potatoes of the process really happened. Because we are digging into these moments, trying to make them move, trying to know how that how does it sound, and really, you know, raising the stakes. And so, I mean, I always felt really sensitive to my fellow performers, because they had to, they were building their characters, not just on Lynn, but on me. So yeah, totally. Right. So they had to like, sort of, you know, left and right, back and forth, like, you know, play tennis. And instead of just something that was consistent, they would have to go in and out between Lynn and I. Yeah.

And so it really, there had to be, you know, a real openness, real conversation, no ego involved, and really just focused on the goal of we are here to build this thing. Yeah. That has to be something really cool to be a part of. Because, you know, a lot of times when you play an understudy, or standby, or an alternate, whatever it is, you know, the creative team, when you're mounting a show, they really focus on the one who's going to play it every night, or the majority of nights. And so, to have that experience, I'm sure you couldn't have that experience, because Lynn was on the other side of the table as well. So I'm sure he wanted to watch it and try to watch it from that point of view.

So to be able to, you know, have your first performance, you felt prepared, yeah? Oh, well prepared. I mean, there were, listen, there were so many times that we had serious, major run-throughs of the entire show. And Lynn was sitting out. I was doing Hamilton. And we had all the producers there, all the designers there. And it was like, pressure! Yeah, because I mean, listen, I've had 160 of these episodes. I've gotten probably in every episode that I didn't even get a put in the first time I went on for this role, you know? So it's great to hear that you got this opportunity, because I mean, yeah, especially because, like, I mean, it's Hamilton. Like, Alexander Hamilton barely leaves the stage, you know?

It's named after him. But that's so freaking cool. That whole process must have been awesome. And the fact that it's just a bunch of friends coming together is really what boils down. It's probably like you're doing like a backyard play for your parents, you know, type of thing. And it doesn't even feel like there's pressure, I guess, because you're just having fun and you're creating something really special. It's got to be such a cool thing. Well, it was beautiful. It was really beautiful. A lot of work, but really beautiful. Absolutely. And it totally translates to the audience. And you can just tell how much fun you guys had and are having, you know, every time you guys are performing. Truly, it's incredible.

Well, I want to talk to you because both of these shows, I talked about it a little bit before, but both of these shows, Hamilton and The Heights, revolutionized Broadway in so many ways, and in their own different ways. And besides from this new kind of composition that Lynn wrote, what can you kind of say? What else was it that really made these shows stand out, you know, besides the wrapping? And like, to the meat and bones, when we boil it down, was it that you really think put it over the edge? I think when it comes to In The Heights, and this is why I was so excited to get involved with My Heart Says Go, is because Jorge, who wrote the music and lyrics, he's, I mean, there's such a clear influence of Lynn on his work, specifically in The Heights, in the rhythms and the cadences of everything.

And I was so taken when I first listened to that music, that I just, I remember very clearly thinking, I've got to support this. I've got to be part of this. I got to be this guy too. You know, but In The Heights used this completely classic structure of musical theater. The most traditional structure, and broke it by putting on top of it something completely contemporary. Right? So, you have a structure of a musical that everyone in that audience is already familiar with. We already know the structure. We know somebody has to die. Right? We know, like, we get it. We know that the couple ends up together. Right? We know that they break up at some point, and that they come, you know, like, we know, we know, these formulas.

That's a classic structure. But it pulls you out. Because you're listening to hip hop, you're listening to rap, you're listening to these beats. And you're watching a stage full of people of color. Yeah. And so this, I really believe that the draw of the attraction of Heights was everything contemporary about it. That was standing on a classical musical theater structure, who could resist that? Right? It just, it gets you, it gets you. And that was what was so beautiful about it was to watch people who weren't Latin, come in and be like, that's my abuela. Like, you know, they don't even speak Spanish, but like, that's my abuela. Right? Yeah. That's exactly what we want you to feel is that you can connect to us.

Right? So there was so beautifully and brilliantly done in that way. And I believe that still translates to this day, because then you have My Heart Says Go. And I look at that structure. And I listened to the music. And I just was blown away by it. And I, there was no way I could say no to that. Because I was like, this is like, this is because of Heights. Right? So it's just, it's like, I gotta say yes to that. Right? So, but then Hamilton, I really believe there's, it's like I said before, I just think there were so many other factors. You know, we were in a really, everyone was, whether folks, I'm an activist, I've always been an activist, that's part of who I am. That's my DNA. I am very involved in politics.

I'm very involved in the events of our lives. That's just who I am. But I think 2015-2016, we're talking about a time where even folks who were not necessarily people who paid attention to all of these events and things, suddenly had no choice. Right? There was a lot happening around us. And I think Hamilton filled this need to have a place to go or a thing to turn to, that was solace, that was inspiring, that was uplifting, that gave you hope. And so, that's why I say, I just think there's a ton of things around when we did the show. Right? You know, you put that on top, you add that to the content of the show itself, which is already revolutionary, what Lynn created, and you've just got an explosion.

Yeah. And there it is. Totally. There were nights, I mean, I was with, from the public to when I left was 2015 to 2018. Wow. And so, it's three and a half years, three and a half years with the show. And I could clock the way certain lyrics, or songs, or moments resonated differently through time, as we were living through different experiences together. Right? As we were going through all the things we were all going through as a society, as a country. And it was so palpable, the things people needed to hear. Right. Right. And would react to. And it changed over time. It was really, it was astounding. So, I really think that absolutely plays into, adds onto what the show already was without that context.

[55:32] Javier Muñoz: So, I think the first thing that I learned was that I was not meant to play Hamilton. I was actually supposed to play Phillip, his son, in the original cast of Hamilton. And I remember when I got the call that I was going to be playing Hamilton, I was like, "Wait, what? No, no, no, no, no." I was supposed to be playing Phillip. But it was a great opportunity, and I learned so much from it.

[56:02] Javier Muñoz: The process of learning the music was intense. I mean, Lin Manuel Miranda is a genius, and the way he writes is so intricate. I remember sitting down with the score and just being blown away by how complex everything was. It was a challenge, but it was also incredibly rewarding.

[56:22] Javier Muñoz: I think one of the biggest lessons I learned was about the importance of collaboration. Working with such a talented group of people, from the cast to the creative team, really opened my eyes to how much better things can be when you work together. It's not just about one person shining; it's about the whole team.

[56:42] Javier Muñoz: And then, of course, there was the experience of performing in front of an audience. There's nothing quite like it. The energy you get from the crowd is electric, and it really pushes you to give your best performance every night. I remember my first show as Hamilton; I was so nervous, but once I got out there, it all just clicked.

[57:10] Javier Muñoz: I also had the chance to work on In The Heights, which was a completely different experience. It was my first big break, and it really set the stage for everything that followed. The community aspect of that show was something special; it felt like family.

[57:30] Javier Muñoz: The music in In The Heights is so vibrant and full of life. I remember rehearsing "96,000" and just feeling the rhythm and energy of the piece. It was a blast to perform, and I loved every moment of it.

[57:50] Javier Muñoz: I think what makes both shows so revolutionary is their ability to tell authentic stories. They resonate with people on a personal level, and I think that's why they have such a lasting impact. It's about representation and giving a voice to those who often go unheard.

[58:19] Javier Muñoz: My relationship with Lin has been a huge part of my journey. He’s not just a collaborator; he’s a friend. We’ve shared so many experiences together, and I’ve learned so much from him. His passion for storytelling is infectious.

[58:46] Javier Muñoz: I also want to talk about my album, "My Heart Says Go." It was a labor of love, and I poured so much of myself into it. I wanted to create something that felt true to who I am as an artist. It was important for me to share my own voice and experiences through music.

[58:56] Javier Muñoz: The process of making the album was incredibly fulfilling. I worked with some amazing musicians and producers who helped bring my vision to life. It was a different kind of challenge compared to theater, but it was equally rewarding.

[59:06] Javier Muñoz: I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is to stay true to yourself. In an industry that can be so competitive and challenging, it’s important to remember why you started in the first place. Keep your passion alive and don’t be afraid to take risks.

[59:26] Javier Muñoz: I’ve had my share of ups and downs, but every experience has shaped me into the artist I am today. I’m grateful for the journey and excited for what’s to come.

[59:36] Javier Muñoz: I also want to encourage young artists to keep pushing forward. It’s not always easy, but perseverance is key. Surround yourself with supportive people who believe in you and your talent.

[59:46] Javier Muñoz: And remember, it’s okay to fail. Every setback is an opportunity to learn and grow. Embrace the journey, and don’t be afraid to take chances.

[1:00:06] Javier Muñoz: I’m really looking forward to what the future holds. There are so many stories to tell and so much music to create. I can’t wait to see where this path takes me next.

[1:00:26] Javier Muñoz: Thank you for having me on the show. It’s been a pleasure to share my experiences and insights. I hope it inspires others to follow their dreams in the industry.

[1:00:46] Javier Muñoz: And to everyone listening, keep dreaming big and never give up. The world needs your voice and your stories.

[1:01:06] Javier Muñoz: I appreciate the opportunity to connect with all of you. Let’s keep the conversation going and support one another in this beautiful journey of art and expression.

[1:01:26] Javier Muñoz: Thank you again, Eli, for this amazing platform. It’s been a joy to be here and share my journey with you all.

[1:01:36] Javier Muñoz: I look forward to seeing what everyone does next. Let’s keep shining and lifting each other up in this industry.

[1:01:46] Javier Muñoz: Until next time, take care and keep creating.

[1:02:06] Javier Muñoz: I’m excited to see where the future takes us all.

[1:02:16] Javier Muñoz: Thanks for listening, everyone!

[1:02:26] Javier Muñoz: Stay inspired and keep pushing forward.

[1:02:46] Javier Muñoz: Bye for now!

[1:02:56] Javier Muñoz: ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:03:06] Javier Muñoz: And that’s a wrap!

[1:03:26] Javier Muñoz: Thank you!

[1:03:46] Javier Muñoz: I appreciate it!

[1:03:56] Javier Muñoz: Until next time!

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