This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Eli Tokash: Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to Take A Bow Podcast. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. We're so happy to have you. And if you have been a listener of this podcast before, then welcome back. We're so happy to have you as well. I'm Sydney Lucas.

[0:17] Eli Tokash: And I'm Eli Tokash. And today we have on someone who is literally like family to us. Um, she is the first ever child guardian that we've ever had on this podcast. And a child guardian is, and as she will explain, is very, very, very pivotal to the experiences of a child actor and their families and the show.

[0:42] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's not even just the families and the kids themselves. It's literally without them, the show itself just doesn't happen.

[0:53] Eli Tokash: Yep. Um, because they're literally like a stage manager for the kids, practically. Um, so yeah, and this is Vanessa Brown. It's episode 19, and we are so excited for you guys to hear a new perspective um that we haven't really had on the podcast yet. So um I hope you guys enjoy. And Vanessa, curtain up.

[1:40] Sydney Lucas: Our guest today is like family to me. I love and care for her so dearly. She has played an integral part in the Broadway experiences of so many Broadway kids and their families. She has been a child guardian in Newsies, Fun Home, Miss Saigon, and legitimately countless others. Everyone, please welcome one of the most fun, smart, creative, funny, and caring child guardians in the business, Vanessa Brown.

[2:07] Eli Tokash: Woo woo! Oh yeah, we had to do two takes of this right now. I feel like I've been here before. Sydney, great take two. Better than take one. Great job. Great intro. Um Vanessa, you're literally famous on Take A Bow Podcast. And we talk about you literally in almost every episode, and everyone listening has been like, you know, you guys talk about this Vanessa a lot. Why why don't you have her on? She needs to talk about it.

[2:42] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, you're famous. Intelligent people, your listeners.

[2:49] Eli Tokash: We know we hear about it.

[2:51] Sydney Lucas: No, yeah, they're great. Let's get started. So I can only disappoint from here.

[2:59] Vanessa Brown: Oh my god, no, you can't. You're amazing.

[3:02] Eli Tokash: Okay, so uh everyone knows this who usually listens. Vanessa, you're a child wrangler. So we've kind of tried to explain it, Sydney and I, and we want to hear from you, um, in your words, and since it's your job and career. Uh um, explain to us what exactly your role as a child wrangler or guardian slash tutor is.

[3:29] Vanessa Brown: Well, it's interesting that you ask that, Eli, because what how I like to describe it is uh when you come into a work environment, when producers hire adults to come in and be a part of their show, they expect that these adults bring with them a certain amount of experience and a certain amount of understanding of what's expected in a professional work environment. And of course, if you know anything about actors, you know that that's not necessarily always true. But when you come when you hire a child, you all bets are off. Oh kids don't necessarily have all those tools in their tool belt. So I feel like my job is to be the spackle, filling in the gaps between what a child brings with them and what the production needs from them to kind of help them fill in those little empty spots.

[4:20] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, you bridge the gap a little bit.

[4:22] Vanessa Brown: A little bit. That's what I try to do.

[4:24] Eli Tokash: Thank you. So much more succinctly put.

[4:29] Vanessa Brown: 20 minutes later, she's like, yeah, yeah, get it. You bridge the gap.

[4:32] Sydney Lucas: I like to better. I like spackle.

[4:38] Vanessa Brown: So basically, just to go a little bit more depth, I want to make sure I'm getting this right. It's not actually legal for a kid to work well without a child wrangler there, right?

[4:50] Vanessa Brown: Well, it there are different rules for different unions. For instance, if you're doing something in film or television, generally the parent has to be your guardian, or the parent supplies a guardian to the production. Because in a film or television set, there's plenty of room for if you have 20 kids, you can have 20 parents sitting somewhere with and they have to be able to have eyes on their kids. In theater, there's just no legitimate way to make that work. So they do we have to you have to have somebody in the room whose job it is to watch the kids and to have no other job under actor's equity. That's what the your union's rule says is basically you can't make it be a stage manager's second job. You can't have it be somebody else. It needs to be somebody whose job it is dedicated to keeping an eye on it.

[5:46] Sydney Lucas: You know, it's so interesting that you say that because what a lot what misconception about uh parents and and child actors is they're not allowed backstage pretty much sometimes they're allowed backstage during lunch time uh and they get to hang out in their in their kids' dressing room but they're not allowed backstage after half hour. And something that a good wrangler like you does is 'cause you know parents, they if a if a child is doing um school theater, if they're doing sports or, you know, anything uh you know, a c karate, whatever, a a a child, a parent gets to go to their to their child's recitals or their shows. That's not something a parent really gets to do when their child is on Broadway.

And a m another misconception is they don't just because their child's in the show that doesn't mean actually that they get to go watch their shows. They they only get to go watch the shows if they pay for a ticket. Sometimes they're allowed to sit in d in a preview maybe or the first preview or whatever, but for the most part a parent is never allowed, you know, to get a free seat and they're not allowed backstage during the show. So something that a good wrangler does is you capture those memories for the parents. You take pictures, you take videos. If an understudy's going on, you immediately contact the parents and be like, Your kid is going on, hurry, get to the theater. And uh that's something that, and and you've worked with my brother Jake Vanessa, you've worked with me, you've worked with Eli, and that's something that we love about you so much is you capture the memories backstage for the parents to enjoy for years and years to come.

[7:21] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, I think that's I I take that part of it really seriously. I mean, the parents come into this situation and they're basically handing over their most precious possession, their child, to a group of strangers who are gonna take them, you know, to this like Carney show backstage, whatever it is they're doing. Uh, you know, this weird world of theater people. And so it's uh uh it takes a lot of trust for the parents to give you to us into their care. And uh I think they need to know and they deserve to know what's going on and what's happening, and keeping those lines of communication is definitely an important part.

[8:03] Sydney Lucas: Sure. And yeah, and keeping it stuff for you too, you know, backstage, because things happen so fast and memories go by, and it's wonderful if you can look back and have something to be like, oh, I remember what we did backstage. Not all those pictures are, you know, because so much people don't realize how much of the show happens back to stage.

[8:27] Vanessa Brown: Yeah.

[8:28] Sydney Lucas: Oh my god. Well, not only do you like make the parents feel more comfortable like handing off their kids, but also like it's hard for, especially like Miss Saigon, you were wrangling what how old were they?

[8:40] Vanessa Brown: We had I think our youngest was four on a side on my five was our average, yeah, so like when they were six, they were like, You're getting out of here, kid.

[8:50] Eli Tokash: Oh no.

[8:51] Vanessa Brown: Yeah. But like honestly, like, could you imagine like at four years old, like leaving your parents for a couple hours? Like, that's really hard on a kid too. And like you really make them feel comfortable and you make them feel like you're like a second mom.

[9:06] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, I mean, and Saigon is such a tough one because first of all, they're so little and it's late at night, they have to be in the show. So just staying up that late is the first challenge. And then backstage is scary if you're in a nice play, you know, because it's dark and there's music and there's strange things. So when you're four, the darkness is scary. Um and then in Miss Saigon, like the music is tense and and somebody is basically trying to kill your mom while you're on stage. Your mom kills them. Like it's there's a lot going on. And uh there's some kids at that age, they're right at the point where they can either get that it's pretend or they can't. And so you can only choose them. We had kids that we loved that were so sweet and kind and funny, but they just it was too hurtful to them to try to go out. It was it was too scary.

[10:04] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, yeah, sure.

[10:05] Vanessa Brown: So basically, uh you know, to be a Tam in Miss Saigon, you just had to be a kid who was able to see I get it, it's a game.

[10:13] Eli Tokash: And that's right, yeah.

[10:15] Vanessa Brown: Not a thing as easy.

[10:18] Eli Tokash: I know.

[10:19] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, I mean, even as an audio audience member, you just get lost in it and you like almost forget that it's fake, like or like that you know, that you're just like performing and watching these real people put on this incredible story.

[10:32] Sydney Lucas: So it i I couldn't imagine being a four-year-old.

[10:35] Vanessa Brown: Yelling and screaming. One of the things that we learned was to have the parents play the soundtrack at home a lot because just the music itself is so intense.

[10:45] Right.

[10:46] Vanessa Brown: If the child has only been rehearsing, as you guys know, before you get to the theater, they don't call in the orchestra. You rehearse with a piano. The drummer if you're lucky. So for a four year old to figure out what it's gonna sound like in the room, it's just a whole other can of worms. But then if they listen to it and get used to it and it's happening at dinner or at bedtime, then it's not then it's familiar and it's not a scary thing anymore.

[11:13] Sydney Lucas: Yeah. I can only imagine that being a child wrangler and and you know kind of watching kids grow up in f in front of your eyes is pretty I'm I'm sure th there are its ups and downs, but I I can imagine it's pretty rewarding. Um especially watching these kids like go out on a Broadway stage and have a literal once in a lifetime and world class experiences. What is your favorite part of becoming a wrangler?

[11:43] Vanessa Brown: You know, it's interesting pretty much my entire everything I've ever done to make a living as an adult has been through with kids. Working somehow with kids. I've been a teacher and a tutor and working in preschools and working in uh babysitting and whatever, all those different things. And of course I've always uh loved the performing arts. So when I found this thing, I was like, oh well that's that's me. That's where I want to be is this combination of working with kids, but I also get to be in the theater and I don't have to sit at a desk all day.

[12:18] Sydney Lucas: Yeah.

[12:18] Vanessa Brown: And so I get such a charge out of kids in general. I don't wanna I don't want to brag. I'm incredibly immature. I feel like that makes me really accessible to like you know really juvenile humor and stuff like that. Like I can I can go with that. So I I just enjoy like I find kids generally much more interesting than adults.

[12:48] Sydney Lucas: Right.

[12:49] Vanessa Brown: And so theater kids are magical pixie unicorns, you know they're just their thing.

[12:56] Vanessa Brown: And when you're used to theater kids, other kids are kind of boring by comparison. You know, it's just theater kids are outgoing by nature and they're silly and they sing and they dance and they quote, you know, Lynn Manuel Miranda lyrics and that's fantastic. And so being able to share that joy that a kid who really has found something they love and to see them get to do that that they love, that's fantastic. You know, this kid is living out a dream. You know, sometimes you're the kid who really doesn't understand, like sometimes there's a kid who kind of fell into this because they're cute and mom was into it and they got an audition and they booked it because that happens sometimes. I've known kids like that who would be just as happy if they were at soccer camp.

They'd be just as happy if they were, you know, somewhere else, but they do it because it's fun and it's engaging, but it's not magical. It's like, okay, I'm doing this and it's gonna look good on my college record and it's an extracurricular activity and I'm making some bank, so all that's good. But then you find those kids who just they've walked into Wonderland and that's, you know, that's great to be able to be, you know, I get to be Tweedledumb and Tweedledee, being like, come this way, it's Wonderland.

[14:29] Eli Tokash: So wait, so how does one, like you obviously found this passion and now when you found that you could be working with kids while being backstage at a Broadway show, how does one like become a Wrangler and like how do they get that role?

[14:50] Vanessa Brown: Well, you know, I like to say that it was part of a work release program from the woman's penitentiary. But that's not true. That's just something I like to say and see what happens to the faces of children. Oh my goodness. But I'm on work release. I have to go back tonight. Um, I yeah, I was teaching, and I had finished college and I was trying to kind of make go of it as a stand-up comic, which I was not having a lot of success at. And um, yeah.

[15:27] Eli Tokash: That's awesome. But you're a stand-up comic?

[15:31] Vanessa Brown: Well, just that's putting it to say that I was one is I was when everybody was standing in front of a brick wall trying to be a stand-up comic, I listened to it. I could totally see you being a comedian.

[15:44] Vanessa Brown: That's what I was doing. I mean, you practically are.

[15:47] Eli Tokash: Well, yeah, but there is a difference, you know, it all it's when you're a comedian, you have to stand up there on stage and really be able to take abuse. And I wasn't good at that. Like because you're you. You know, when you're performing and you're on stage and you're with another person, you're somebody else. So if somebody doesn't like the performance, you can kind of parse that into your, you can divide it a little bit from yourself. It's still hard. But you know, if you're a stand-up comedian and you're just up there talking, it's soul crushing when people don't want to hear what you have to say. So I just, you have to be able to work through that and the good comedians just push through and make it happen and develop a stage persona.

And I just, it wasn't for me, it was too, I was too much of a little delicate flower. Um, you know, and I was teaching, and then I heard about this company called On Location Education, who you know, and I called them up and they were like, yeah, sure. You want a job with the circus? That was the first job they offered me. It was like, and they're like, no, you get to travel with the circus, you teach the circus kids. Um, we, you get your own trailer, we teach you how to use the sump pump to empty out the toilets.

[17:08] Eli Tokash: Oh my god.

[17:08] Vanessa Brown: Like, well, that sounds great, but um, yeah, I didn't jump into the circus job and I found out later that that's pretty much what they offer everybody the first time they come, they get a new teacher. They're like, do you want to go out with the circus? It's not, no one likes to do it. You literally almost ran away to join the circus.

[17:27] Eli Tokash: I was invited to run away and join the circus.

[17:29] Vanessa Brown: I was invited to run away. And I was like, hmm, that doesn't, I don't, I that doesn't sound fun to me.

[17:35] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[17:36] Vanessa Brown: Um, yeah. So, but I, I worked, I started working with them on TV that they were filming in New York back then, and I did a Broadway show as a tutor, and I met this Wrangler named Bobby Wilson, who is, oh yeah, yeah, the Lord High Guardian. He's taught me everything I know. He is, uh, he has scattered the seeds of all the guardians, I think that are on Broadway. He kind of created the job as it is now, and he's the greatest, and he kind of taught showed me the ropes, and I realized, oh, there's this whole other job that doesn't involve math. And that you get to be backstage. Like being a tutor was fun, it was better than being a substitute teacher, but being a guardian, that's where the kids wanna be. They're on stage, they're having fun.

[18:35] Eli Tokash: Yeah, right, because the tutor is during the day and then the guardian's during the show, right?

[18:41] Vanessa Brown: Right. Well, and it depends. Sometimes you get pulled in and out of rehearsal. You know, in rehearsal times, they'll take the kids into rehearsing and tutoring and back and forth, and sometimes it can go on for a long time. And, uh, yeah, it's a tough gig. It's important and there are great tutors out there, but as soon as I saw that there was another job, I was like, oh, I like that better. That sounds more fun.

[19:06] Eli Tokash: Yeah. Bobby worked on Newsies, right?

[19:12] Vanessa Brown: Bobby, uh no, he was Matilda. He was the head wrangler of Billy Elliott. He, I think he started off doing like the first national tour of Miss Saigon, I wanna say. Like, really, like he's been in this for the long haul. And he and his husband Andy, Andy is a performer and a singer, and an incredible teacher if you ever need a musical theater teacher. Andy Gale is phenomenal. Uh yeah, Tommy Cale thanked him when he won the Tony for, uh, oh whoa, the heights, yeah. Not a big deal. One of those two. But yeah, so, uh yeah, Andy Gale is amazing. So the two of them are just these great people, and I learned at his feet, and for a while we called ourselves the Siegfried and Roy of child care because there weren't that many other guardians, it was us.

And then there were people who would come through and maybe do it for a year or two and then go on to something else because it really wasn't a job that any sane person would want back then. You know, it's not, and it's still to this day, not really for sane people, you know, the art, you know, it's hard enough to have a job as an actor in this job or a stage manager. Everybody's out of work now, you're out of work between shows, you never know when you're gonna work again. And, uh, not every show has kids.

[20:46] Eli Tokash: Right.

[20:46] Vanessa Brown: Yeah. So you're, the amount of work is really limited. And not a lot of shows have kids, but there are some shows that have a ton of kids, and those shows require multiple wranglers, and it also usually involves a head wrangler.

[21:05] Eli Tokash: Yeah. In shows that require multiple wranglers to handle a bunch of kids, how does that work? How do they make sure that they're on the same page? Do they decide on different tracks? Like, okay, I'll get these children at this point and then I'll pick, like do they have different tracks?

[21:24] Vanessa Brown: Well, you know, as guardians, no matter whether you're alone or with a group, you eventually have to write down your track in case, God forbid, you are, you know, hit by a bus on the way to the theater, somebody can jump in and know where you have to be standing to help the kid for this particular performance. Um, we have a written track and usually if somebody is going to learn is gonna be your sub or take over for you, they will follow you and kind of learn it as you go. Just like you would if you were a hair person or a dresser, you know, they have their basic rules to follow, this is where these key points that you have to hit in the show. And yeah, it all depends on the needs of the show.

When you have multiple wranglers, it depends on how the show needed to be. When we did Sound of Music, you know, the Von Trapp children all moved together as a unit. So, but we also had multiple understudies upstairs staying in the dressing rooms. So we split it up where one person would stay with the understudies and one person would walk the show with the kids and we would switch off with that depending on what we did. But because we really didn't need to have two guardians on deck because the kids were always coming and going together.

[22:53] Eli Tokash: Okay.

[22:54] Vanessa Brown: In Matilda, they had a dresser station in the guardian room at all times, and then one stage right and one stage left, and then a floater who would kind of go around making sure kids are going to if they have to go in the back of the house or if they have to go down to hair and makeup. Um, so you just kind of go with what the needs of the show are. The first job I ever got by myself, I was a head wrangler and two others for a Christmas Carol at Madison Square Garden, and I got it because I had been the tutor the year before and they couldn't find anybody who really wanted the job, though I at least knew what the job entailed. So I kind of set up the tracks for the show and we made it up as we went along and we wound up finding, you know, stage right, stage left, dressing rooms kind of works for a lot of shows if there's a lot of kids coming and going and hubbubbing around.

[23:50] Eli Tokash: Definitely. That actually brings up another question. If you get sick and you can't wrangle the children for a show, what happens?

[24:01] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, well, you know, knock wood, you train a sub, you find somebody who either is a guardian in between shows because their show closed and they're waiting for the next one, or sometimes there are people who just like to be sub guardians. They might teach during the day or do tutoring and this is a little way for them to pick up occasional extra money in the evenings or on the weekends. And sometimes somebody who wants to be a stage manager will say, okay, I will learn this track because it's a way to be in the theater every day. You teach them, they come in and they watch you do the show a couple of times, they meet everybody, and then you kind of watch them do the show, and then you say goodbye and they take over, and you hope, you hope they're there for your kids.

[24:49] Eli Tokash: Wow.

[24:50] Vanessa Brown: Uh yeah, it's scary. It's a real, like performance. Like you guys are performing just as much as the kids on stage are to be honest. Like you guys are literally running everywhere. You're making sure that kids are on time for their entrance, you're making sure that they're wearing the right costumes, you're making sure that they have enough water, like all of these like minor details that many people may not think of. So, like you always make sure that like kids are safe and they're having fun and still like being respectful of the show and of their peers. But um, like so, as you know, like as kids in the business, obviously you can't perform every show due to the child labor laws of some shows, um, depending on the show and how big the role is and stuff like that, you can't perform eight shows a week. Um, there's some cases where kids have to have alternates.

[25:52] Vanessa Brown: There's some cases in which children perform eight times a week, but also there are like understudies backstage and there are alternates standing by like backstage as well, who are just like standing in the wings, I guess.

[26:03] Eli Tokash: Yeah, it's interesting that it's really about the union rules and the way the production chooses to work.

[26:12] Vanessa Brown: Back when I first started, there were very, very few split cast shows. You pick your kid who did the eight shows a week, and then there were understudies, just like an adult performer. And then somewhere about 10, 15 years ago, they started to figure out that with kids, that it's the law of diminishing returns. Not every kid can give you eight performances a week that are gonna be that quality and go to school and be a kid, and so they came up with the idea of like, hey, let's share it. A lot of shows do that, they just split it and do some of the kids do four and four, or maybe it might be six and two, which it all depends from show to show how they want to work it. A lot of times, plays or shows that are actory-centered musicals like Fun Home, where it really depends on a relationship that develops between these actors, they will still pick a child and have that child do all the performances because everything changes so much based on that child and their choices.

But if you have a big giant musical, like Matilda, the reason they have so many kids doing it is because it's exhausting and those kids are tiny, and they need to have standbys ready at all times. But it also means that it's a very different way of learning how to perform.

[27:49] Eli Tokash: Yeah, so it's a, you know, there's very different shows. If you're part of a big gigantic musical, there's no room for making it your own, really, and you learn, you have to hit your beats, you have to hit your marks, because if you don't, it throws everybody off. You can't learn a bunch of different shows. Whereas on a smaller show or a play, it really the interactions between the characters is much more important, and rehearsal, specific rehearsal becomes more important.

[28:20] Vanessa Brown: I don't know what question I was answering.

[28:22] Eli Tokash: Yeah, so well, it never really got out, so it's okay. Um, but that was great insight. Um, so as a Wrangler of like Newsies, right?

[28:33] Vanessa Brown: They it was four and four.

[28:34] Eli Tokash: And what right?

[28:36] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, four kids, yeah.

[28:39] Eli Tokash: Right.

[28:39] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, two boys with the kids. You were the only Wrangler, right?

[28:42] Vanessa Brown: Yes.

[28:43] Eli Tokash: So what was it like for you to worry about a kid on stage and a kid off stage?

[28:49] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, and that's also an interesting evolution that we're working with now because depending on where the dressing room is, and you guys will know that very often they will throw the kids up on the farthest possible away place from the stage. Like, they're kids, the kids can be fine up there. Um, but that makes them very far away if you're spending the entire track down, you know, running around in the basement from one side of the stage to the other. But on the other hand, you know, if a child is not performing that night and has to do his homework, he can't really be running back and forth, and you don't want an extra body in those little tight winged spaces. So it's a matter of figuring out okay, where is a safe place for me to be able to know where my kids are, but also be able to take care of the kids who are running the show.

[29:48] Vanessa Brown: And it depends on the age of the kids. You know, obviously a Tam in Miss Saigon is not gonna get left to his dressing room and be like, "You're fine, kid, I'll be back in 20 minutes." You know, so they would come to all the cues and I basically have to keep them in a bear hug so that they don't wander into a set piece. Um, but you know, if your kids are older, if they're 11 or 12, and if the dressing room isn't that far, they might be able to be in the dressing room, or they might be put in a stage manager's office, or a quick change booth that's not being used, where they can be close but not be, you know, completely inside the running of the show.

[30:30] Eli Tokash: Yeah, yeah.

[30:32] Vanessa Brown: And like with the Fun Home situation, like Gabby is the most responsible person in the world. So you know, so Gabby understudied literally all three kid parts. So there were four children, three of them went on for eight shows a week. Gabby understudied every single part. So she oftentimes, when we went down to our cue, she stayed up in the dressing room, but she's also like the most trustworthy, responsible human being on planet Earth. Gabby Pizzella is absolutely like Gabby could be my guardian in a flash. She's so much more responsible than I would probably be. There are some kids that you just know, look, if I don't know where they are, they're somewhere being good.

[31:15] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[31:16] Vanessa Brown: And there are the other kids that you know, if you haven't heard from them for a while, it's time to get worried. Like that's like, oh, there's something's happening, and you're gonna come into a room filled with, you know, bubble bath or something.

[31:30] Eli Tokash: Oh no.

[31:32] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, so there's, you have to figure it with the children, and you have to be able to also there are different companies that will have directives, you know, Disney, because they are Disney, they want the guardians to have eyes on the kids at all times. They want to have, they have much more strong control over, you know, what they will allow their guardians to do. And then they will pay for another one if they feel like they need it. But other companies, it all depends what the stage manager is comfortable with, what the Wrangler's comfortable with, what the child is comfortable with.

[32:14] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, you don't ever want a kid to feel alone, you know, but then there are some kids who are just like, "I just need to get my homework done," and so you go, "Okay, well that's legit."

[32:24] Eli Tokash: Yeah, true.

[32:26] Vanessa Brown: You know, it's like being allowed to be up in the room of your house by yourself. You might be 10 and you could do that and the rest of the family is downstairs, but you need to know where everybody is in case you need them.

[32:39] Eli Tokash: Sure.

[32:39] Vanessa Brown: Yeah definitely we need to know where the kid is if we need them to go running in and be like, "Somebody's got a bloody nose, you're on kid!" So with that being said, you also like we sometimes will have games backstage with the kids who aren't on.

[33:00] Eli Tokash: Talk about like known for her games.

[33:04] Vanessa Brown: Yeah.

[33:04] Eli Tokash: She literally has a backpack full of like she's Mary Poppins.

[33:09] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, literally it's true. I will, I that's actually what my business card says now. It says like, like if Mary Poppins was from Brooklyn.

[33:17] Eli Tokash: Oh my gosh.

[33:18] Vanessa Brown: Um, yeah, so that kind of has come up over the years because you never know when you go into a show what kind of room you're gonna be thrown in. Sometimes you have massive amounts of space, sometimes you have no space at all. You have chairs or you don't have chairs, you're sharing a tiny space. Usually you're sharing a tiny space, especially during rehearsals, it's long and tedious, the days get really exhausting, and kids need something to do.

[33:50] Vanessa Brown: So depending on the age group, we have lots of little like handheld things that you can put down that don't have a lot of pieces that you have to be cleaning up. If all of a sudden you're like, "You're on," then you've made a mess, you know. So little handheld puzzles and games or light up things, fidget toys. I'm always collecting those. And then once the show is up and running, it depends on how busy the kids are.

[34:16] Eli Tokash: Sure.

[34:17] Vanessa Brown: You'll have a show sometimes where the kids are on the beginning of the show and the end of the show, and they have two hours in between. You've got a lot of time to like break out the Uno cards or the voting kittens or whatever show, whatever card game or board game you might be into. And sometimes you just only have 10 minutes really between things and then you're off again.

[34:41] Eli Tokash: So then talk about the Rubik's Cube.

[34:46] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, Vanessa literally taught the Fun Home kids how to solve a Rubik's Cube.

[34:50] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, the Rubik's Cube has turned into a gold mine of, I feel like, and it's spread across Broadway. And it was actually happened in, well, you know, obviously, as a child of the time when the Rubik's cubes were popular. I never learned how to solve one, except I could do one side. I figured out how to do one side, and that was it, and that was just left it, it was a fad. And then I had one just as playing because it's a quiet toy, but I didn't know how to solve it. And I had a child on Newsies, Lewis Grasso, who said, "I wanna learn how to do that." And I was like, "You know what? I kind of do too. Let's figure it out." So we went looking, and we found, which I'm sure you at least Sydney will remember, chessandpoker.com.

[35:44] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, pages that show you really well, like with arrows and things pointing up and down. It's such an amazing way to teach.

[35:51] Eli Tokash: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[35:54] Vanessa Brown: It's a really good because I could never follow the videos. Once you know kind of what you're doing, you can follow the videos that they have on YouTube now. But yeah, that just seemed to be the really like, okay, I can just look at the arrow and turn it and oh my god, I've solved the Rubik's Cube. And then, you know, of course the kids get way smarter than me and they come back, Sydney and Lucas, and be like, "Oh no, you're doing it wrong. Okay, you have to do it like this because it's much faster."

[36:23] Eli Tokash: Why are you doing it that old slow way?

[36:26] Vanessa Brown: No, no, but there was you had like such this longest algorithm in the world at the end. It was like 40 different moves, and I was like, "Hey, my brother from King and I, his friend from King and I taught him a faster way to do it." Jake taught me a faster way to do it, and I taught it to you the second time you ran the, actually the third time you wrangled me in Secret Life of E's.

[36:49] Eli Tokash: That's right, that's right, exactly.

[36:51] Vanessa Brown: And that's the one that I would use to this day.

[36:54] Vanessa Brown: Yeah! And my last show when I was doing Medea out in Brooklyn, one of the boys really became obsessed and he got really good at Rubik's Cube. And he learned with those same things. You know, I tell him learn how to solve one side all by yourself, figure it out.

[37:13] Eli Tokash: Yeah, and then if you can do that, learn these pages to get the second sides in the bottom and then we can shop it and condense it from there.

[37:22] Vanessa Brown: You literally taught it so well. I every time I teach someone I always am like, "Okay, what did Vanessa do again? 'Cause that was perfect."

[37:34] Vanessa Brown: Oh thanks. It's also fun because you had, you had games backstage that were like silent. You had like a cloth frisbee or a knitted frisbee or something.

[37:43] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[37:43] Vanessa Brown: Uh, I scour, I look for things like that because I have kids who have to sit sometimes for hours like in the dark. You're not allowed to make noise. Tech rehearsals are, you know, when you just have to wait and wait and it can be eleven o'clock at night and you haven't done anything all day but you've been there for eight hours and you're exhausted and the kids are cranky and they just don't want to be there anymore. But we could get to your scene any second so you have to be standing by.

[38:11] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[38:12] Vanessa Brown: You know, it's a lot and so you come up with riddles, tongue twisters, you know, any kind of little silent games. Of course you do the hangman or cubes, little things that you can scribble on a back of a piece of paper or doodling games.

[38:30] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[38:31] Vanessa Brown: Anything that you can do. Lots of little things that have lights in them so that you can, you know, turn it around in the dark, it glows so that you kind of have a little space in the dark when you're sitting out in the back of the house.

[38:44] Vanessa Brown: Yeah.

[38:45] Eli Tokash: Wow.

[38:46] Vanessa Brown: I know. That's so much fun.

[38:48] Eli Tokash: Or like just filled with random weird toys.

[38:52] Vanessa Brown: That's awesome.

[38:53] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[38:54] Vanessa Brown: It's actually I can tell you now, a lot of my toys I found on places that sell like club toys, like for like Raver, because they love like glow in the dark, you know, things that you know when the kids take them into nightclubs and just dance to music and like but it's a glow in the dark stick does. So I found a lot of my things there because yeah, that's great.

[39:18] Eli Tokash: Uh yeah.

[39:20] Vanessa Brown: Magic tricks.

[39:22] Eli Tokash: Oh my god, that was such a huge thing. You know, but whatever you can do with a pack of cards.

[39:27] Vanessa Brown: You can do everything with pack of cards. Seriously.

[39:30] Eli Tokash: Yeah, and they go a long way and they can fit in your pocket.

[39:32] Vanessa Brown: So it's not yeah. You know, in a lot of cases, the child guardian acts as a voice of reason backstage when things get chaotic or tense, whether there is bickering between the kids or whether a child has sudden stage fright because they forgot the opening lyrics to the show and they didn't want to go on anymore.

[39:58] Eli Tokash: True story.

[40:00] Vanessa Brown: And they need a pep talk. Um, the guardian, the child guardians is always there to help the children emotionally.

[40:08] Eli Tokash: How important is it to you to make sure that the children are okay emotionally backstage and that you keep everything peaceful and and make and just ease all of the tension?

[40:22] Vanessa Brown: Well, I love your uh assertion that I do those things. I truly do. There are things that the there are drama. There's drama on every show. There's drama with kids. When they hang out with your best friend, there's always gonna be stuff. And there's a high stress level, but I it's absolutely the physical safety and emotional well-being of my kids is number one. Everything else is really somebody else's department. I can help out if they need me to, you know, help rehearse uh run lines with somebody or remind somebody of their blocking notes, but that's really somebody else's department that I will help out with if they ask me. But uh physical and emotional, that's that's my job for you guys.

[41:14] Eli Tokash: And emotional is a big deal. It's it's a high stress environment. And once you start going, there's no going back. You know, they you don't want to be the reason the show stopped. Tensions are high, kids have bad days, kids come in without having had a good dinner or they didn't get a good night's sleep, and uh they're just kids, and then you have to get locked in a coffin together for 15 minutes sometimes.

[41:43] Vanessa Brown: And it can be difficult. Uh there are kids, and this is true with adult actors as well, who can be laughing and talking and giggling and playing, and then go out and do a dramatic scene where they're sobbing and crying and everything's awful, and then walk off stage and be laughing and having a conversation again.

[42:04] Eli Tokash: Right.

[42:04] Vanessa Brown: There are other people who like need a safe space to be like, all right, we need to chill now so that I can kind of get into my zone. I need I can't have things happening around me. And both things are totally legitimate, but you each have to respect the other. And uh and it's also just kids being kids. I always when you know kids fight and kids bicker. And I, you know, I tell the parents, look, I'll come to you if I feel like there is something that is outside the realm of normal kid behavior. You know, when it's just kids being kids, we can usually resolve these things. You try to work it out. Sometimes you can't, sometimes you have to sit down and be like, listen, you guys, we have to take this really seriously. This is a $13 million musical, and you're not allowed to have a temper tantrum. You just do the best you can. I mean, you know, you're uh emotional balls of feeling, and it's gotta go someplace.

[43:03] Eli Tokash: Yeah, there was there was a literal performance where I went on and completely, completely screwed up the opening, which I have the first lines of the entire show. And for a fun home, the the lines for the opening are almost identical to the lines for the finale. And so I screwed it up and I was crying backstage. And Vanessa just sat me down in the dressing room and talked it out with me. And I was just like, I don't like I'm I I'm gonna screw it up. I'm gonna go in for the finale, I'm gonna forget it again. And she just honestly just talked me out of that and was like, It's honestly okay, like d chill out, it's fine. And then I I went again and I did that again, then at for the night performance, and she did the same thing, and she she she uh calmed me down and literally and also for the Tony Awards, she did the same thing. I was freaking the hell out, and she was backstage just you know, helping me to calm down and being the voice of reason and giving me giving me a pep talk and telling me everything's gonna be okay.

[44:09] Vanessa Brown: Well, you know what? Because you're one of those kids who will get inside your own head and get in your own way. I uh you think a lot, Sid. And uh so that's kind of the thing, and honestly, it's better than the kid who comes off stage and and they kind of messed up and they don't care really, and the you know, somebody has to track them down and be like, guys, like you've gotten that note three times. What's up? You have to hit that mark. That's not you. You're gonna be harder on yourself than anyone else in the room.

[44:40] Eli Tokash: Everybody has had those moments on stage where your brain goes away, uh, and you know, you just have an out of body thing like I hope I know what comes next. I don't know what's gonna come out of my mouth.

[44:51] Vanessa Brown: Too many times.

[44:54] Eli Tokash: Yeah, and it's you know, it happens, or somebody else does something and it pulls your focus away, or an audience member makes a weird noise, and you're like, what was that? And you try you know all kinds of things that can, you know, take you away from the show.

[45:12] Vanessa Brown: And uh, you know, so for uh someone like you who is really takes their job really seriously, it's really just about letting you get out of your own way and accept the fact that you're gonna make mistakes sometimes and and not get it to the point where you know you give yourself a case of the yips, you know, where like you have professional catchers in baseball can't throw back to the picture anymore because like they just they it's the simplest, easiest thing that they've done all their lives, but they do it wrong once and then they get it in their head, and then all of a sudden it they they forget like the muscle memory just goes away.

[45:48] Eli Tokash: And that yeah you just don't like that, you know.

[45:51] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, you make a mistake, you make a mistake, that's fine. You know, the one thing that I've always been glad about when I because you know, every once in a while, remember once in newsies we got to the stage and we realized the child hadn't changed shirts. He has one shirt for act one and one shirt for act two, and there was just the the you know, the entreact was starting and that was it, and it was like, oh, I've I ruined everything. I've this job, I and you know, and then I kind of sat back and realized like probably nobody's noticing.

[46:21] Eli Tokash: Yeah, definitely not.

[46:23] Vanessa Brown: Like I'm not sure anyone even in the cast would notice, like if we didn't say something about it. And in the at the end of the day, nobody lives or dies based on whether you know Les has the right shirt on, or whether or not you you know, somebody cracks on a note or forgets a line. Like it's it's entertainment and it's glorious when it's soaring along. And when it's not, it winds up being a good story afterwards.

[46:48] Eli Tokash: That's so true.

[46:50] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, that's all the good stories are about the when things go wrong. You don't sit around talking about the time I was so awesome.

[46:58] Eli Tokash: Totally maybe you do, but it's so funny because like literally the most asked question is always like, What's your favorite onstage mishap? Or like it's never like what performance did you just love so much? Like it's always like, so what went wrong?

[47:15] Vanessa Brown: Right, exactly. That's what everybody wants to hear about.

[47:18] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[47:18] Vanessa Brown: And those are the fun stories to tell. And it makes people feel better because they're like, oh, okay, even, you know, Tony winners and and incredible movie stars have had things where it's just like, oh, that wasn't that didn't work out that time. I'll go into it again next time.

[47:33] Eli Tokash: Also something that's important about your job is kids oftentimes don't feel comfortable standing up for themselves when they're when they feel uncomfortable or when they feel sick, maybe. And it's part of your job to acknowledge that, see that, and and see like, oh, that child seems off in some way. Maybe they had a bad day, or maybe they're honestly just not feeling well. And it's it's uh important to stick up for their health and their well-being. How important is that to you to to make sure that you know their their physical health or obviously their emotional health if if they're you know not okay if they're upset, um, to, you know, instead of from a professional standpoint of making sure they get to their cues on time, how important is it to you to, you know, stick up for their like physical health and their emotional health?

[48:26] Vanessa Brown: Yeah, I feel like, you know, it is everybody has difficult days and times when things aren't working for you. And sometimes it's hard to know like, is this a thing that I push through and I'm just gonna go and do my show because I'm a professional, or is this a thing where I need to sit out and take care of myself? And kids don't want to fail. They don't want to let people down. They they tend to put a lot of pressure on themselves to to you know, this is their dream, and they're not going out without a fight. So there's a lot of times where kids will deny that they're sick, you know. I only have four times, I'm fine, you know. Uh so to help them learn how to read their own bodies and listen to themselves, uh, so that they know, and and sometimes it's hard because the stage managers might be putting pressure, like you gotta make a decision, you're in or you're out, um, because that's their job.

And it's a it's a weird gray area because you guys are in a union and nobody can tell you to be out of the show. Nobody can tell you what you can or can't do. It's your just job to decide. But children are used to like kind of having mom maybe make that decision, be like, okay, you're too sick to go to school. When you're in a theater, it's you have to figure out if you can do it, if you are ready to be able to give your best performance. And that's kind of the way uh when I talk to a kid about it, I was like, you know, if this is somebody out there is seeing this show for the first time or seeing their first Broadway show, are they gonna see you at your best? Are they gonna see the best version of you that you can be?

And if that answer isn't yes, then you owe it to that person to let your understudy go on and give the performance of their life because they're so excited, or to let your uh your alternate go on and do the job because that's what's best for the show, and that's what's best for you too.

[50:40] Eli Tokash: Yeah, for sure.

[50:42] Vanessa Brown: To learn how to set your own boundaries is is hard. Well, while you talk about this and listening, like you making sure that kids are listening to their bodies, do you like how do you make sure that you're listening to your body and taking care of yourself too and not work just like focusing on the kids?

[51:02] Vanessa Brown: You have to focus on yourself sometimes too.

[51:04] Eli Tokash: Well well I I've listened to my body and I try to tune it out every time I can 'cause it's it's just whining and bitching all the time now.

[51:15] Vanessa Brown: And I'm over anything it has to say anymore. Um but you know what it's what I think is is good, at least it was great for me with theater, is once you're out of the difficulties of rehearsals, uh and the show is up and running, you've got your three or four hours, you're in the theater, you give it everything, then you have a couple of hours of a rest and maybe you come back and do a night show or that's your gig for the day.

[51:44] Vanessa Brown: And you know, I don't have kids of my own. So I can go home and I can lie on the couch and no little thing is gonna come tiptoeing up to me in the middle of the night saying, Mommy, I don't feel good or I had a bad dream. Uh you know, the cats will occasionally wake me up. But that's uh something I've learned to live with. Uh so I am able to to give that to the kids because it's it's not a lot. It's I I'm I'm a sprinter, I've learned rather than a marathon runner. You know, I for four hours I can be great, I can be there. And then I get I have to go home and I'm like bye. Take your children and go. I won't be very very uh wonderful. But that's you know that's where and of course guardians have bad days too, and sometimes you just you know, I and I'm sure it's been obvious.

There are days when I come in and I just kinda have the glasses on and the coffee cup, and it's just like everybody mama needs a minute to go juice before we get going. Um, you know, but just like an actor, you you either push through it or you call somebody else in, you tag out and say, You come do this. Yeah, you know, like parents you your role is a l in a lot of cases thankless and and and child rank child guardians are like the unsung heroes of Broadway. People don't realize how yeah, yeah. Seriously, but you guys are so you're like an anchor. You're an anchor. You're you're so you're like you're you're pivotal. You're pivotal to the experience of children on Broadway and to the show. Like you help keep it running, and not only that, you are the bridge between the children and you know, the adults of the show, but you're also the bridge between the children and the parents when they can't be there, you know, for the show. So it you like Eli said, you truly are like child guardians are the anchors of of shows when children are in it.

[53:45] Vanessa Brown: Well, you know what, it it it's absolutely lovely to hear you guys say that and to know that that goes un that that goes that the becomes noticed. Um yeah, there's a lot of times where you feel like it's you know jobs like this, you get noticed when something goes wrong, generally. Um you know, they're very quick to let you know when the kids weren't on it and if the kids they just seem distracted, or if they weren't together or if they're making too much noise. And that's you know, part of the business. It's not like, oh poor pitiful me. That's just when you're in a kind of a service industry, people don't tend to give positive praise all that much. You're gonna see a lot more negative Yelp reviews than you're gonna see positive.

People take the time when they're mad to say that that person stinks, but when it's good, it's like, well, that's how it should be, and you go on with your life. Um so that's something I try to bring with me is to point out when somebody's just doing what they're supposed to do, and that's a good thing. Uh but it and it's really nice to hear you guys, because it's that's my job, and you don't expect praise for it. But it's nice every once in a while to be like, oh, that kid is just a little bit maybe more of an interesting person. I I nudge them into weird and and unusual directions.

[55:17] Sydney Lucas: Well, it's interesting because like this goes for like everything, because at the time you like don't really understand, especially like when we were in the shows, you know, we were like 13, so we didn't really understand it, and we didn't understand like how important you were. So like looking back, we we noticed these things and we're like, wow, like they had such a pivotal role on not only me and my time in the show, but also on me in who I am today. So and that kind of Caroline, there's a lot of Caroline on that. I want to have her on next to talk about again another child wrangler perspective. But so that kind of leads me to like another question of like how special is it for you to after you've wrangled these people like for in Sydney and I's case about five years ago, um how important and special do you feel it when we like meet again at like dinners or at Zoom calls like we are doing now.

[56:18] Vanessa Brown: I know. Like we're growing up. It's cool to see them grown up.

[56:21] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[56:21] Vanessa Brown: You right up a bunch of kids who are like grown-ups now.

[56:24] Vanessa Brown: Yeah. No, that that's it's the amazing part of the job. And you know, part of it is sad because when you guys get older, you're like pushing me older too.

[56:37] Vanessa Brown: Oh no.

[56:38] Vanessa Brown: They like every every year you age, I'm like, oh death draws ever nearer. Uh you know, because I I get to watch you age and I'm like, well I must be a lot older now. But it it's also it's a wonderful thing to be a part of that journey. And there are kids who stay in your life more than others. You know, some kids do their Broadway thing and they go off back to wherever their lives were and you don't know. Especially back in the day. Now with Facebook it's a lot easier to kind of keep in touch and see where everybody is and it's really delightful to just randomly hear from a kid who you maybe haven't heard from in a while and just to learn about the person they've become and to find out what they remember and what was special to them about that time and the idea that that I'm a memory in somebody's lives that's that's fantastic. As uh hopefully if it's a good memory.

[57:41] Sydney Lucas: Yeah.

[57:42] Sydney Lucas: You're more than a memory Vanessa you're family.

[57:45] Vanessa Brown: Yeah seriously.

[57:46] Vanessa Brown: Aww guys are so sweet. Um yeah, I mean, yeah, that that's uh there are some kids that you just grow up and you're like, well, that's that's you and me, where I'm gonna know you, and you better stay in touch and otherwise I'm gonna come track you down.

[58:02] Vanessa Brown: Um that has to do with a lot of different things. It has to do with you know, the parents or just being in New York makes it uh more like that. And uh, you know, those are really special. But even the ones who kind of go away and come back again, it's like, oh, you you went off and became a lawyer, but you are a lawyer who is self-confident because of things that you learned, or a lawyer who has a sense of humor because of the things that you learned, or whatever it is that you were presence.

[58:35] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, and uh, you know, just like a great teacher. I think, you know, I grew up with teachers who made an impression on me and who I will be thankful for my whole life.

[58:46] Vanessa Brown: And uh yeah, that's why I do this. It's uh it's better than any paycheck. It's getting to watch you guys turn into humans.

[58:55] Sydney Lucas: You're also like shaping us uh as we like grow up. You're you're shaping us into the adults we're becoming.

[59:03] Vanessa Brown: Golden young minds. That's what they that's what they killed a uh Aristotle for or Socrates, one of those guys.

[59:11] Eli Tokash: Oh, they for uh yeah, for poisoning the youth of Athens.

[59:15] Vanessa Brown: Like he got into their minds and they didn't like that, so they killed him for it.

[59:21] Sydney Lucas: That was a better guardian, I would know which one of them it was.

[59:25] Vanessa Brown: It was either Socrates, I believe. They made him drink arsenic.

[59:29] Eli Tokash: Uh that sounds right.

[59:31] Vanessa Brown: Because he was like teaching philosophy to the kids at Athens and making them question stuff, and they were like, We won't have that.

[59:39] Vanessa Brown: If I raised a little bit of a rebel in some of you, then I like that.

[59:43] Sydney Lucas: Yeah.

[59:43] Sydney Lucas: Oh my god.

[59:45] Vanessa Brown: Too funny.

[59:47] Vanessa Brown: Uh truth and a lie.

[59:49] Vanessa Brown: Okay.

[59:50] Vanessa Brown: I have been thrown up on over seven times.

[59:55] Vanessa Brown: Oh my god.

[59:56] Vanessa Brown: Uh I was uh once in a show where a child came close to electrocuting herself.

[1:00:04] Vanessa Brown: Oh my god.

[1:00:07] Vanessa Brown: Or I have twice been in shows where an audience member has died in the middle of the show.

[1:00:15] Sydney Lucas: Whoa.

[1:00:16] Sydney Lucas: Whoa, okay.

[1:00:16] Sydney Lucas: I'm gonna start the timer now.

[1:00:18] Sydney Lucas: Okay, ready?

[1:00:19] Sydney Lucas: Three, two, one.

[1:00:22] Sydney Lucas: What shows did the people die in?

[1:00:26] Vanessa Brown: Uh we lost at least one person and chitty chitty bang bang.

[1:00:30] Vanessa Brown: But I feel like it might have just um yeah, sacrificed the will to live at a certain point.

[1:00:35] Vanessa Brown: Um yeah, we had we lost uh someone and they just all of a sudden the one was screaming like he's not moving, and they went and took him out, and we were like, hi kids, come on backstage, we're just gonna go talk for a bit.

[1:00:50] Vanessa Brown: And uh and then uh uh uh Bonnie and Clyde happened too.

[1:00:56] Sydney Lucas: Okay, now what was the show of the electrocuting?

[1:01:00] Vanessa Brown: Who uh that would have been on uh South Pacific.

[1:01:00] Sydney Lucas: South Pacific.

[1:01:06] Sydney Lucas: Oh my god, you wrangled all these shows.

[1:01:08] Sydney Lucas: You're famous.

[1:01:08] Vanessa Brown: Okay.

[1:01:10] Vanessa Brown: And you've been thrown up seven, thrown up on seven times?

[1:01:12] Sydney Lucas: What if you just changed the number?

[1:01:14] Sydney Lucas: Like, what if you've only been thrown up on six times?

[1:01:16] Vanessa Brown: Ooh.

[1:01:18] Vanessa Brown: Smart.

[1:01:20] Vanessa Brown: We're on to something.

[1:01:21] Sydney Lucas: Wait, but like, listen, if I was thrown up seven times, uh like thrown up on, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:01:27] Vanessa Brown: I I believe.

[1:01:29] Vanessa Brown: I believe I believe wording, just let me so you understand was at least seven times.

[1:01:29] Sydney Lucas: At least seven times.

[1:01:37] Sydney Lucas: Okay, well, time's up.

[1:01:39] Sydney Lucas: Time's up.

[1:01:41] Sydney Lucas: Um, Vanessa.

[1:01:48] Sydney Lucas: Even if what even if two of those are true.

[1:01:51] Vanessa Brown: Oh, wait, I thought this was um three lies, this game.

[1:01:54] Sydney Lucas: No?

[1:01:57] Sydney Lucas: No, two of those are true.

[1:02:00] Vanessa Brown: Oh my gosh.

[1:02:02] Vanessa Brown: I wanna what if your life the life of a child angry, ladies and gentlemen.

[1:02:10] Vanessa Brown: Uh in everybody.

[1:02:12] Vanessa Brown: On the wicked stage.

[1:02:13] Sydney Lucas: Oh my god.

[1:02:15] Sydney Lucas: Um wow, this is tough.

[1:02:17] Sydney Lucas: Um I think I'm gonna go.

[1:02:20] Sydney Lucas: I believe the thrown up on story, and I believe the whole death thing in the audience, but I'm shocked that it's in two different shows, to be completely honest.

[1:02:34] Sydney Lucas: Um, so I wanna say that one, but I would also want to say the electrocuting one.

[1:02:42] Sydney Lucas: I buy the throw up one, like I feel like that's definitely the truth.

[1:02:46] Sydney Lucas: I feel I feel like Sydney is watching me to give away I wonder if like I'm trying to keep really I should have asked how she got electrocuted, or almost almost got electrocuted.

[1:02:59] Vanessa Brown: Your time you're time.

[1:03:01] Vanessa Brown: Just let's be clear. I've never supervised a child who died under my care.

[1:03:06] Vanessa Brown: It's just okay.

[1:03:08] Vanessa Brown: You said almost electrocuted, right?

[1:03:11] Vanessa Brown: That's what I said, yes.

[1:03:12] Sydney Lucas: Okay, okay, I'm gonna say the death in the audience is the lie.

[1:03:21] Sydney Lucas: I'm excited to hear what the people listening have to say as the.

[1:03:25] Sydney Lucas: I can't believe two of those are true.

[1:03:29] Sydney Lucas: I know, literally.

[1:03:30] Sydney Lucas: Okay.

[1:03:31] Sydney Lucas: I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say the deaths one because I feel like you've been in a show where someone has died, and I feel like maybe it's not two.

[1:03:33] Sydney Lucas: I feel like maybe you've been in another show where someone has almost died, like maybe had a heart attack but didn't die, or maybe something like that.

[1:03:50] Sydney Lucas: Um, so I'm gonna say the death one because I do feel like you've been in a show where someone's died, but but not two of them, I guess.

[1:03:58] Vanessa Brown: Okay.

[1:03:59] Vanessa Brown: Is this where I now you reveal?

[1:04:02] Vanessa Brown: It's not like I don't have to wait until next week.

[1:04:04] Vanessa Brown: Come back last next week, ladies and gentlemen.

[1:04:10] Vanessa Brown: Um, all right, you guys.

[1:04:12] Vanessa Brown: The truth is you lose because I actually have never been thrown up on ever.

[1:04:18] Vanessa Brown: I have witnessed a lot of throw up in my time.

[1:04:22] Vanessa Brown: Yes, but I have turned the children to the appropriate waste paperback.

[1:04:28] Oh my god, Vanessa.

[1:04:34] Vanessa Brown: No, I mean, uh there's been multiple times where people have been taken out of the show for medical reasons. And we stopped the show for a minute, and we don't know what happens. Uh so there could be more. Uh, but there are two times where we found out later for sure that this was uh oh yeah first what in the world yeah yeah that's uh you know it's not it's a cruel it's cruel way to go. The electrocution one and the dying one were crazier I think than the throw up one.

[1:05:11] Eli Tokash: I agree. You know that's how I did the little twist on it. Also I I've m noticed a trend when we played this game that no one lies first on their first thing.

[1:05:12] Vanessa Brown: Yeah.

[1:05:22] Eli Tokash: Like their first statement. So I was like oh yeah that seems right it was the first one. It seems kind of normal. Something that could definitely happen.

[1:05:32] Vanessa Brown: Right. I would totally thought I had tired you it makes sense because you work with children. Children are known for throwing up all the time.

[1:05:40] Eli Tokash: Right right I know but I've never I was thinking about that when I was actually trying to think of what my truths in lie would be. And I was like I've never actually gotten barfed on. I've gotten like kind of snotted on you know with kids who are like crying and are like eating a cookie and they get and you're like oh thanks guys. But never never the actual vomit.

[1:06:05] Vanessa Brown: I'm not sure you you've also pulled children's teeth out.

[1:06:09] Eli Tokash: Oh lots of teeth yeah yeah yeah that's crazy I'm quite quite the dentist at this point. Yeah just yeah yeah exactly. You have done a lot of things that are above your pay grade and we are so grateful for you um and we're so grateful that you could come on and just share your work and and share what you do because you know it's it's behind the scenes but it it affects so greatly what happens on stage and what happens in a child's life. So thank you so much.

[1:06:36] Vanessa Brown: Oh well thank you guys for having me it's exciting I just it tickles me to death to see grown up faces running things being producers you guys who are listening don't hear this but when the mics are off they are hardcore these two are not joking around there's a lot of a lot it's very like Meryl Streep I wanna say and Devil Wears Prada like they're very just they're on it and uh and I'm terrified of them both uh but with love you Vanessa and we can't thank you enough for doing this and for your willingness to chat with us and share your stories um it was a pleasure yeah because you're literally like our first child wrangler on so like this is a totally new kind of episode for our listeners so I'm very excited they're it's gonna be fun for them to listen to it so yay I'm so excited yay we love you Vanessa.

[1:06:38] Eli Tokash: We love you too if they were all as sweet and kind and smart as you guys oh well yeah right maybe the sweet and kind but do I need to say that like should I tip do another take if they were all as sweet and kind as you guys the water words okay all right well thank you so much and uh yeah this was so much fun it was fun for me too take about Vanessa Brown yeah.

[1:08:16] Sydney Lucas: That is such a cool flow to it.

[1:08:18] Eli Tokash: Yeah, I know, right? I love it. Um no, Vanessa, you're oh I mean, that was so fun. Like, honestly. We've just finished that. And not only is it fun that we just had a new perspective on our podcast, but we're also recording on International Podcast Day. So very exciting stuff.

[1:08:37] Sydney Lucas: Um that voice crack. Um so no, seriously, Vanessa had so many incredible stories. Her truth, truths, and a lie were super interesting.

[1:08:48] Eli Tokash: Oh my god, they were crazy. I mean, come on, like all of those things were very high possibilities of happening. So it was really hard. And I hope you guys listening played along and I don't know, maybe guessed it right if you did. Um Sid, what do you would what were your thoughts?

[1:09:08] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, it was so cool to hear her perspective on, you know, it it's funny because when I worked with her and when my brother worked with her, I was, you know, young, I was this child, and I I didn't even think to ask all these questions. Um, but now it's so interesting to hear her perspectives on, you know, what it's how how if she's doing her job right, she won't, you know, get any feedback. But if but if something goes wrong, you know, people come to her and be like, oh, the y the child wasn't on their mark or whatever. And it was also interesting to hear her, you know, perspectives on the on wrangling different ages and the you know special bonds that you create with the individual children. Um and and it's a whole it's a whole trust thing. Like you you know you you get to know your children and you pretty much help to raise them.

[1:09:59] Eli Tokash: Um and also it was interesting to hear uh what it's like to to wrangle and have multiple wranglers when there are a bunch of different kids.

[1:10:09] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, I mean like so talking to someone like Vanessa, it really reminds you of how many possibilities there are in the theater world. So like you don't have to be an actor to work on Broadway. Like there are so many routes that you can go through. And Vanessa is a prime example of that. And so I'm glad that we had her perspective on and uh she made some really incredible points, like thinking about I've never thought of, you know, me being a parent and me having to send my kid off to some stranger on the first day of a new job at uh at like to send like a minor to a job without your parent and sending him off with a bunch of strangers. Like it's just so bizarre and I never really thought of that until she kind of put that into perspective for me.

[1:10:57] Eli Tokash: Um there were a lot of those aha moments almost in that.

[1:11:01] Sydney Lucas: Yeah, and also there's trust between the child and the Wrangler, but there's also a lot of trust that needs to happen between the the mother or the father or whatever what whoever is the, you know, child's full time guardian, um trust between them and Vanessa. Um so yeah, and uh Vanessa is she truly like made all of the kids' experiences in Fun Home so so fun. One a bun all pretty much my favorite memories of Fun Home. There's so many, but I I I whenever I think back on the show, I think of, you know, after Ring of Keys coming off and just goofing around with the kids and Vanessa and playing card games with them and and, you know h having Vanessa teach us how to solve Rubik's Cubes and you know, playing these games with Vanessa, how Vanessa had this whole purple backpack just full of a bunch of games and and little trinkets that we could play and she always thought about that and she was you know always on a hunt for games we could play backstage that were quiet. Um so yeah I I I hold those memories with Vanessa and the kids so very dearly and I truly think of her as family now.

[1:12:16] Eli Tokash: Yeah. I mean I haven't even like worked in with Vanessa for a long period of time but I mean I couldn't imagine like I consider family even though we haven't worked together for you know like in a show together. So I couldn't imagine like how much she means to you because she means a lot to me and in the short time that I've known her and for like the short uh interactions that we have together she just it has had a big impact in on my life already. So yeah she's definitely someone who's truly special and it's just fun to like reflect on those little memories with your fellow kid classmates, oh my gosh. Um I'm in school mode now you know back to school. Um yeah so yeah to reflect on those you know uh memories with your castmates and your child wrangler I mean it's truly the best time of the show because Vanessa said it perfectly like so much happens backstage and it's like a whole another show, you know, it truly totally you and you have so much fun and that's where most of the memories are built and that's how you become closer to the cast because when you're on stage you're not gonna be talking about your life with the cast and you can't really get closer if you like just don't talk to them about like yourselves.

[1:13:36] Sydney Lucas: Um and so that's where all that happens and it it's truly special back back there. And um she brought up so many great things and how many jobs there were backstage to and literally every single person back there is a huge part of that. Um so it was really cool to to hear that.

[1:13:56] Eli Tokash: Yeah and I've I've also apart from Fun Home I think I've worked with her officially like three times on three different projects one of which it was just I was the only kid there, literally the only kid and so it was just me and her and it was nice to have, you know, as someone as you know a kids in the business oftentimes it can be hard to relate to the adults or maybe you know the adults you know sometimes treat the children like children. Um and so there like Vanessa said there can all oftentimes be a gap. So having her there to you know just like hang out with and you know not be alone, not feel alone.

[1:14:34] Sydney Lucas: Sure is so you know it helps your performance.

[1:14:38] Eli Tokash: Totally. Yeah yeah so Vanessa I mean we can't thank you enough for coming on and giving our listeners a new perspective on the business and what possibilities are out there. Um so thank you for that and also how many roles there are that aren't seen that are so important you know behind the scenes.

[1:15:02] Sydney Lucas: Yeah I mean being on Broadway it it truly takes a village and every single person has a pivotal role and every single person is so just as valuable as the other and the only ones that get the true credit for it are the actors. And meanwhile, the people backstage, as far as stage managers, directors, uh, child wranglers, like everyone. Um, and they don't get the same amount of credit.

[1:15:31] Eli Tokash: So, but we're happy to have her on and share some light on child wranglers and other people backstage that that work backstage uh on Broadway and in theater in general. So thank you guys. Thank all of you who who worked back there and really make the show possible, you know.

[1:15:52] Sydney Lucas: Yeah. Um, yeah.

[1:15:53] Eli Tokash: We hope you like the episode. It was so nice catching up with Vanessa.

[1:15:56] Sydney Lucas: And we hope you come back next week for our twentieth episode.

[1:16:03] Eli Tokash: That is so crazy to say, but our 20th episode. So exciting.

[1:16:08] Sydney Lucas: Um we love you.

[1:16:11] Eli Tokash: See you next week.

[1:16:15] Sydney Lucas: Sick beat him, alright. For our curtain call, we wanted to give a few special thank yous to Nikki Torsha and Corm McCollinon for our amazing music, Giselle Bustos for designing our logo, and Tessie Tokash and Sidney Lucas for editing our episodes.

[1:16:30] Eli Tokash: Feel free to subscribe and leave a review on whatever platform you are currently listening to us from. This podcast wouldn't be possible without the help of Dory Barenstein, Alan Seals, Britney Bigelow, and Katie Rosen at the Broadway Podcast Network, as well as our top patrons, Henry Friedman, Brian Thompson, and PCC.

[1:16:49] Sydney Lucas: Speaking of, if you enjoyed this week's episode of Take A Bow, go check us out on Patreon at Patreon.com slash TAB and become a patron today. Through our Patreon, you will form a relationship with us and get an inside book on what goes into this podcast.

[1:17:05] Eli Tokash: To learn more about this podcast, visit EPN.fm forward slash take a bow and follow us on Instagram at takeabout podcast, where you can contact us with any feedback, suggestions, or questions, and keep up with all things take a bow.

[1:17:19] Sydney Lucas: See you next week.

[1:17:20] Eli Tokash: Bye everyone.