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[0:02] Kim Jackson: You're coming in wrong. Ladies and gentlemen, we invite your apprehensive listening. Conformity has always been a big issue for me in this film, The Woman King. Viola Davis embodied that role. Just the walk, the way she walked. Oh, yeah. In the character of Naoi, who was just so indignant and so defiant. And then Nanisko's insistence upon her following the rule and doing what she's told. But then in the end, it was the defiance of Nanisco that helped her slay her personal dragon. Exactly. You know, most of us spend our lives conforming and doing what is expected. And we never get to that place of facing our dragons, much less attempting to slay them. But that's exactly what Nanisco had to do.

Yeah, so few young women nowadays who do. I feel that way when I defy what is expected of me to just live my true self. That just spoke to me in ways it brings you to that point because when you slay a personal demon, you get that feeling of power, personal power. Like yeah, motherfucker called life. That's the best you've got. What's next? What is your name? I'm Kim Jackson, and you're listening to the Afroexistential podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[1:44] Indira Wilson: Hey, welcome to the Afro Existential Podcast. A podcast and audio play at one. I am one of your hosts, Indira Wilson.

[1:52] Blaine Teamer: And I'm Blaine Teamer. I was afraid of that. This season we'll be presenting a brand new audio play entitled Pandora's Strong and a new interview series entitled The Breakthrough From Vision to Fruition. In this series, we hear from people who took a great idea and made it a reality. We want to know how they did it and how they got over the obstacles along the way. We hope that it helps and inspires you to make your great idea a reality. Now tell me, uh, what's so special about tonight?

[2:18] Indira Wilson: As Black Panther Wakanda Forever is about to break new records. I wanted to reflect back on another breakthrough film, The Woman King, starring Viola Davis. So I called up one of my favorite people to discuss it with me for the podcast, my friend Kim Jackson.

[2:32] Kim Jackson: Yes, it'll be like our old times, darling. But before we go to commercial, here's a sneak peek of our next audio play, Pandora's Trunk. Pandora Washington has been on a quest to find the truth about her birth mother. And this musical number, Pandora's pretty sure that legendary R&B Diva, Solange, played by my co-host Indira Wilson, is her birth mother. And she believes that Solangeray was secretly explaining the reason that she abandoned Pandora as a baby via her hit song and disco anthem entitled Miss Understood from the album A Ghetto Life T'Ain't No Joke.

[3:12] Indira Wilson: I don't understand.

[3:13] Kim Jackson: With music and lyrics by yours truly, and sung by the one and only Indira Wilson. Watch what you say. We don't want to hear nothing ugly. This is the world premiere of Misunderstood. We shall begin now. Get down.

[3:34] ♪ Musical number: "Miss Understood" — performed by Indira Wilson ♪

[5:19] Kim Jackson: And we'll be right back after a brief commercial break.

[5:23] Indira Wilson: And I'd be a success.

[5:26] Kim Jackson: I did what I had to do. Ooh. My daddy did him too. Every day I struggle with Karen. I don't wanna have to struggle with my hair. Get me an improved Afro Existential Sheen Shampoo and Reconditioner.

[5:45] Indira Wilson: Oh. It goes deep into your roots and uncovers the natural beauty that's been there all the time. Yay. Every day I live the struggle. I don't wanna have to struggle with my hair. And for added projection on those Karen Gate, then there's Afro Existential Sheen Super Holding Hair Spray.

[6:07] Kim Jackson: A protein based hairspray that holds your hair back, but won't hold you back. I don't even have to take my earrings off. I hate to think where I'd be without it. Afro existential sheen shampoo, reconditioner, and relaxer. Get it today, your roots will thank you. And that's no lie.

[6:30] Indira Wilson: Oh and welcome back to the Afro Existential Podcast.

[6:42] Blaine Teamer: The Woman King, starring Tony Emmy, and Academy Award-winning actress Viola Davis, opened in September of 2022. And now as Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, another breakthrough film is hitting theaters. I wanted to reflect on The Woman King. The Woman King was directed by Gina Prince-Bythewood. And the story takes place in the 1800s. It's about a real life, all female army that protected the African kingdom of Dahomey. Viola Davis plays the fictitious character, General Anisca, who is training the next generation of female warriors to fight against a foreign enemy determined to destroy their way of life. John Boyega plays King Gizo, a real life figure who ruled Dahomey from 1818 to 1858 and engaged in the Atlantic slave trade through the end of his reign.

Kim Jackson and I first met when she was a graduate student at Penn State, and I was an undergrad. Since that time, she's lived and worked in the United States and Africa in the field of academia for over 30 years. I called Kim on a whim to get her insight on the film. And then I asked if she would talk about this breakthrough film on the podcast.

[8:20] Kim Jackson: But I had a lot of hesitation about seeing the movie simply because of the violent aspect. You know, it's it's it's I've gotten to the point where, you know, I've kind of changed my viewing habits because I just can't take the violence anymore in film, and there's so much of it. So it took me until now, a little over a month after its release, I believe, before I actually saw it. And I think our discussion is, you know, really appropriate for the breakthrough series because my first thought when I became aware of The Woman King, and I read a little snippet about what it was about. I'm like, wow, this is a real breakthrough, you know, from the Mammy and Jezebel themes to, you know, fierce women warriors.

So it took me a while to center and celebrate the fierceness and the physicality and strength of black women who were intentionally, you know, warriors just really intrigued me. And I was like, I gotta go see this no matter what. I can just squint and hold my fingers up in front of my eyes so I don't really see the violence. I appreciated it as a concept, but when I walked out of the theater, I was like, wow, you know, I was just so full of energy that I really didn't expect. I had decided a couple of years ago that I could no longer see these black films where people are slaves, they are the brutalization of black bodies and the violence upon black bodies. We're now living in this time where it's so real. Like we don't have to go to pay to see us being murdered and killed. You just turn on the news. You just turn on the news.

[10:17] Indira Wilson: Exactly.

[10:19] Kim Jackson: And so even in theater, like mainstream theater, there were a lot of black playwrights that were focusing on slavery and modern versions of slavery and enslavement of the black body. And one of them ended up on Broadway and nominated for a Tony. Wow. That's not what I want to spend my money or my time doing. We have friends, and one of the one of the people asked if we were interested in seeing it. What ends up happening is that you know you can't keep on turning everybody down because they're going to see something because eventually you don't get invited to anything.

[10:54] Indira Wilson: Exactly.

[10:55] Kim Jackson: And you know, you don't want to explain why you don't want to see this. The person caught at the right time, and I just said, okay, but I didn't really know. I hadn't read anything about it. And I think we were like going to see it the next day. And so we went and it starts off with violence.

[11:12] Indira Wilson: Right out of the gate.

[11:14] Kim Jackson: Yes. I was almost ready to like have to go to the bathroom or walk out. But it had just started. So I couldn't stay in the bathroom the whole time. I was like, oh God, here we go. And so I was like, okay, Blaine, put on your big boy panties and just dive into it. I was surprised in a wonderful way. The cinematography was just amazing. The colors, the dust and the smoke, it really kind of pulled you in like you were there. The acrobatic movements in the scenes, the training scenes, and the battle scenes. And of course, the battle scenes, I squinted my eyes so I could see just enough to know when the battle scenes were over. I had read it was worthy of seeing it on the big screen because what I tend to do is I just wait until I can stream it so I can fast forward through the violence.

[12:07] Frederick Johnson: And so I said, no, I've been to the continent of Africa. I know what it smells like. I know what the air does to your body and your mind. I know what the smells are. And I wanted to really see that on the big screen. And that did not disappoint. But what really jumped out at me, and I'm gonna get to the controversial part in a moment because that part takes me to another discussion that maybe we'll touch upon. But I'll tell you something, what really resonated with me was the theme of defiance versus conformity. The notion of conformity has always been prevalent in my life. I was born in 1958, you know, in high school, you know, women getting treasure chests and having boyfriends that they knew that they were going to get married to, even after high school.

You know, I didn't my life, I feel like has been an exercise in beating back conformity while not being openly defiant like Nawe was, but just the choices that I made or didn't make. I was a non-conformist. So conformity has always been a big issue for me, and it took me a while to develop my defiant voice. And so in this film, in the character of Naoi, who was just so indignant and so defiant and hotheaded, and then Nanisco's insistence upon her following the rules and doing what she's told. But then in the end, it was the defiance of Nanisco that helped her slay her personal dragons. That is something that just so resonated with me. You know, most of us spend our lives conforming and doing what is expected.

And we never get to that place of facing our dragon, facing our demons, much less attempting to slay them. But that's exactly what Nenisco had to do. And that just spoke to me in ways it brings you to that point because when you slay a personal demon, you get that feeling of power, personal power and resilience. Like, yeah, motherfucker called life. What's next? And so I came out of the theater with that feeling. Like, yeah, my own personal acts of defiance of not getting married, refusing to stay with a man who beat me, who went ahead and when I decided to be a mother, went and go went and got my baby. You know, just all of the things that people say to you in passing in social situations that help you conform, that are meant to make you conform, the societal pressure that you understand.

[15:27] Frederick Johnson: So for me, that defiance in the midst of the loyalty, the sisterhood, one minute being extremely focused and fierce about their training and developing their skills, just opposed to the tenderness of the relationships between some of the women and the humor. It made me feel seen in a way that feel like black women are usually not seen. We're always seen in service to someone else. And be when you're always in service to someone or something else, you don't really get to develop your own skills and talents and get to that place of empowerment because you chose these women chose to forego the man and the marriage and the children to be these fierce warriors. And then Naoi comes along and questions everything.

In that questioning, she becomes just a fierce Nenisku 2.0. I mean, this actress, she matched Viola Davis's character in energy and presence. And I just say that Viola Davis embodied that role. She embodied that. And I think we're all searching to feel that way. And I know that I feel that way when I defy what is expected of me to just live my true self. So it really is a breakthrough. And what got me, I was talking to my niece who I went to the movie with, you know, when the king was sitting there with his wives, and you know, the one was trying to center some power around herself. I said to my niece, well, there's the Kardashians, you know, sitting there all pretty and perfect and dressed up, and I just got I just got a kick out of that.

[17:47] Frederick Johnson: And there was just living out her truth. There are people who find it very difficult to conform. They're questioning things, and there's they can't help but speak to it. We have that similarity. It's almost like we don't have a choice, like we can't not exactly. You know, we live in a society where questioning and doing that and being your truth self is really not supported. Not at all. You can be your true self if it is similar to all the other truths that are around you, if it's in alignment with that. The people who love me the most did not see me, and they couldn't see me the more I behaved in a nonconformist way. They just didn't get it. I didn't have a choice. When you're young and you really can't articulate it, but you just know in your bones, this shit is fucked up.

And I was thinking about this yesterday, thinking about this movie when I was probably about 10 or 11 years old. I remember the day that I realized that marriage was not for women, that women got the short end of the stick. And I couldn't have articulated it that way, but just watching an interaction between my mom and my dad, there was something in my body that said that won't be me. Right.

[19:16] Frederick Johnson: And so, what was so moving about it to be able to be that way and to be within a tribe that's supportive, and within that tribe, there's another group that is supporting you to be your fullest, yes, to see who you can really be. Yes. And even when you mess up, there's someone there to pull you by your coattails and say, okay, you this is who you are, but you have to hone this like still helping you to kind of be who you fully are. I love the fact that it was not told through a white male gaze. Yes. It was not told through a black male gaze. And a story that I was not familiar with. There are so many amazing stories that we do not get to hear or learn about. And we definitely don't learn about this in school. They're trying to remove who we are out of American history. Exactly. So we definitely do not see it ourselves from pan-African or global perspective in all of these stories.

[20:24] Frederick Johnson: You know, and I also really appreciated the character, the interracial character, Malik. I thought that was a breakthrough moment. I didn't really get him, except he was fine trying to find himself. I don't quite know how I feel about him, except for the fact that his mother was Dahomey, and she always wanted him to go back there to know who he was. And I guess he was searching. I love that aspect of it. Once again, that was a plot line that I hadn't seen before. Like what? You know, depending on who's telling the story, it's you know, the tragic mulatto. Right. There's that trope. There is the light-skinned dude who you can't trust. Right. So there's all these kind of like subliminal things that are attached to when that type of character comes into the story.

And the reality of it is is that you know, many of us we have this history. You become attached to who's around you and who you can become attached to. And so even now it's like you can have white friends, but to a certain extent, you have to really kind of always know your place. Yeah.

[21:32] Frederick Johnson: And so there was the nuance of, yeah, he was able to do that, and he was able to have access to that world. But the younger dude was always like, you know, don't get it twisted. You know, you could be up here on the auction block as well. Yourself, yes. Him being defiant as well, connecting with this young woman was, and I felt like that was so beautifully told. It's interesting when something is being told from the dirt the director's gaze, wonderful actor, but he was visually beautiful, and that director made sure that you saw him physically as well. Yes. And so he was almost the arm candy. But at the same time, I felt like his character didn't follow any of the traditional tropes that I had seen before.

We have all been taken from our home, so to speak, and we are trying to get back to kind of discover who we are, you know, and the fact that you know he wasn't going to stay there, right? And she wasn't going to go with him. I just saw him as a tool of, oh my God, is she gonna go with this man now? I just saw I really didn't put that much thought into his character, but you're right, in that he was a different sort of biracial man, but I just thought he was kind of lost and was attracted to her, but she because she was very clear of who she was, yes, but yeah, that's very real though.

[23:00] Indira Wilson: Like people, you know, what you're skipping over is that normally they would have they could have cast a white dude to play that part. You're right. Right. There's a whole history of how tropes about certain men and how they treat dark skinned women. And so we know that you know there are light-skinned men who love and worship and think black dark skinned women are beautiful. We don't get to see that in this film. Yes. Yeah. And so, like I said, normally that would have been some white actor. Yeah. Right. And so I felt like, oh no, they this is a this is a conscious choice, and this is uh another story. But yeah, there are so many levels to this movie. It's gonna, I think it'll speak to different people in different ways.

The you know, the other thing I loved, there's a scene where she's going through this training process, and what is supposed to happen is you it's about you getting to that line first, and you're not worried about who's behind you, and so that is a very American way of yes, yes. I know where you're going.

[24:09] Indira Wilson: So she did not do that, and so there will you realize there's there is a different way of being in the world, exactly.

[24:18] Frederick Johnson: You're talking about how she went back and got her friend through the first that through the thorns, yes, still won.

[24:26] Indira Wilson: Imagine that had a direct competitor right in front of her eyes, trying to beat her, and she still won.

[24:33] Frederick Johnson: Yes, right.

[24:34] Indira Wilson: That's black woman shit.

[24:36] Frederick Johnson: Big time.

[24:38] Indira Wilson: Big time. There's a different reality that we are constantly being sold that doesn't really make any logical sense.

[24:47] Frederick Johnson: Exactly.

[24:48] Indira Wilson: Wow. I mean, Nanisco, you know, her second in command, they saw her for what she was, and they didn't pay any mind, really.

[24:57] Frederick Johnson: No.

[24:59] Indira Wilson: Because she was punching above her station.

[25:02] Frederick Johnson: You know, the Kardashian reference for me had to do with people thinking that they're powerful because of their access to power, their proximity to power, and not because of anything that comes from inside of them that's ever been developed.

[25:23] Indira Wilson: And because they're all made up and pretty and perfect and you know, the Kardashians, that's another story, obviously, but I refer to them as the Kardashians because they derive their power not through any particular skill or wisdom or gift that they have, except by looking good.

[25:46] Frederick Johnson: And the Kardashians are women who carve themselves up and present themselves as like they're the perfect trophy, basically.

[25:56] Indira Wilson: And they were just trophies sitting there. Let me hear what the controversy is.

[26:01] Frederick Johnson: You know, when I was going through this thing of like, I need to go see it, but I'm I don't really want to see it, but I gotta see it. I did a search online.

[26:10] Indira Wilson: I clicked the news tab because I wanted to know what the latest was and what the box office was and how it was doing, and then this really brief article had come up about Lupita.

[26:22] Frederick Johnson: So she was originally cast with Viola Davis, and she was so excited about doing this movie because it is such a breakthrough film. She took a documentarian and a film crew to Benin to learn more.

[26:40] Indira Wilson: And as a result, she dropped out of the film and she just gracefully said, This is not the role for me to play.

[26:47] Frederick Johnson: So then there were other articles by Africanists, and you know, other African historians who really struggled with the fact that Hollywood was making a film centering these really fierce warrior African warrior women of the Dahomey when the Dahomey, you know, really enriched themselves and thrived as a kingdom directly through the slave trade.

[27:13] Indira Wilson: And so they were Africans who captured and sold other Africans outside of their group, obviously, to the slave traders. And people were really, really, really, really, really upset with that.

[27:27] Frederick Johnson: I found that really interesting. And then after I saw the film, it really, I don't know how I want to say this, but it really kind of took over my thinking, not just about the film, but about us as a people.

[27:43] Indira Wilson: Okay. When you think about the phenomenon of the slave trade and the resulting slavery of the African people and all of the psychic and physical harm that we are still dealing with all over the diaspora of us in Brazil, in Haiti, in the United States, in the UK, in France. You know, we are still reeling from the effects of that.

[28:11] Frederick Johnson: You can react to this. It made me think that first of all, it's a Hollywood film. So it's not the first film that glosses over or sort of twists certain facts.

[28:24] Indira Wilson: But when black people, Africans, wherever, I just sometimes feel blame that we are so locked into a victim mentality that we do not allow ourselves to be full human beings, which is exactly what we suffered at the hands of the Europeans.

[28:48] Frederick Johnson: And so it's a historical fact that this African kingdom and probably other African groups or kingdoms at the time, they captured its human nature to compromise or rationalize our actions to enrich or better ourselves.

[29:48] Indira Wilson: We African Philippine, whatever. We're human beings. And what does it mean to be human? And part of the human experience is that we sometimes do morally reprehensible shit to thrive to enrich ourselves and to empower ourselves and to thrive.

[30:11] Frederick Johnson: And it doesn't make it right, but it's part of what it is to be human. And I just get so tired of black people. And I understand what it's a function of. It's a function of, you know, slavery and the north south white black power dynamic and all of its brutality and all of its immorality and the dehumanizing of it.

[30:34] Indira Wilson: I get all of that, but I just feel like we're missing the point that indeed we are fully human beings. And how in the fuck whether you're in one of those European kingdoms of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and the early modern period, all they did was fight with each other and brutalize each other.

[30:57] Frederick Johnson: So why do we have such a difficult time acknowledging? And I know that one of the white people's response, well, you know, we didn't go capture the slaves ourselves, and y'all sold each other. And yes, it's true, but that does not preclude the fact that this particular kingdom had a military of fierce women warriors.

[31:24] Indira Wilson: And I think that story needs to be told. And I, for one, as a black woman embodying centuries of all of the collective consciousness of the brutality and dehumanization, I needed to see those women.

[31:41] Frederick Johnson: I needed to know that story. Like you, I didn't know about them. I didn't know anything about the Dahomey.

[31:49] Indira Wilson: And if I'm gonna learn something about the Dahomey, I can learn that they were part of the slave trade, while also they were a nation of people with fierce women, highly trained soldiers.

[32:03] Frederick Johnson: Clearly, some of this criticism was before people saw the movie or after they saw the movie.

[32:09] Indira Wilson: It definitely started once it was released, probably when Viola signed on. But once it was released, like, yeah, this particular studio is gonna make this particular movie, that's when the criticism started.

[32:24] Frederick Johnson: And then of course, when Lupita dropped out, it was I can't be a part of a film that centers and celebrates an African kingdom of people who sold us to into slavery.

[32:38] Indira Wilson: So, what is at the heart of that for me is does being locked into sort of this victimhood of look what's been done to us, even though we're resilient and we carry on and we rise anyway. We never want to air our dirty laundry.

[32:57] Frederick Johnson: And as African Americans, you know that is huge. And that that gets back to as young people not being seen if you don't conform.

[33:09] Indira Wilson: And it's so important to conform because we're trying as a group of people to be accepted as fully human, equal human beings. So if we are, let's tell it all.

[33:22] Frederick Johnson: Right. Because it gets to, it's why incest and molestation is perpetuated in our communities. You know, the Dahomey they sold us down the river.

[33:34] Indira Wilson: You know, the first thing I want to say is the truth ain't no rumor. Hello.

[33:38] Frederick Johnson: Hello, exactly. I'm thinking back to when the color purple came out.

[33:42] Indira Wilson: Yes.

[33:43] Frederick Johnson: You remember when that film came out, all of the criticism around how black men were perceived or depicted and the violence against black women.

[33:53] Indira Wilson: The conversation never became, well, black women were abused. Hello.

[33:59] Frederick Johnson: All these things did happen. So are we going to look over all of that?

[34:03] Indira Wilson: Yes.

[34:05] Frederick Johnson: And what stories would we actually tell?

[34:05] Indira Wilson: Yes. Where those things didn't happen.

[34:07] Frederick Johnson: And how do we get to our healing if we cannot, and we do what humans do like everybody else?

[34:15] Indira Wilson: Well, my concern is who is telling that particular story.

[34:20] Frederick Johnson: And so I remember a couple years ago, I went to see a piece by Susie Laurie Parks, the playwright.

[34:28] Indira Wilson: And it was called Father Comes Home from the Wars.

[34:33] Frederick Johnson: Yeah.

[34:34] Indira Wilson: I felt like that was an example of, you know, she's a woman of color, but her takes on things are always skewed in a particular way where I can see why white people get behind her work.

[34:49] Frederick Johnson: You know, because her audience basically is a white audience.

[34:52] Indira Wilson: So that's the first thing, right?

[34:54] Frederick Johnson: And so it's exposing the dirty laundry of black people and showing black people in a negative light, primarily just to white people.

[35:04] Indira Wilson: Right.

[35:05] Frederick Johnson: And so that's one thing.

[35:07] Indira Wilson: You think, but is the playwright trying to explore these things for white people, or she's just trying to unearth the fullness of who I think she is, and I know what you're saying, but I feel like it is cowtowing to a particular white audience because that's primarily who is going to see her work.

[35:33] Frederick Johnson: It's exploring it in a particular way.

[35:36] Indira Wilson: And so that goes back to, you know, she's one of them, you know, where it was a whole series of plays that were coming at a certain time. It was about black people voluntarily deciding to become a slave in some capacity.

[35:50] Frederick Johnson: And I and it almost feels like, well, if we have a black person telling this story, then it's okay because it's a black person saying that they want to be a slave.

[35:59] Indira Wilson: I see, I see.

[36:00] Frederick Johnson: Right.

[36:01] Indira Wilson: So that's one thing. I feel like this movie was not that.

[36:04] Frederick Johnson: I like the fact that it told that particular part of the story, that they did do this, which you know, logically makes sense.

[36:13] Indira Wilson: I've had neighbors who, if I could have sold them to somebody else and they would have gone somewhere else and lived somewhere else, I would have did that today.

[36:22] Indira Wilson: You could take their house and add it onto your house to make it bigger.

[36:25] Frederick Johnson: Well, everybody would do that, right?

[36:27] Indira Wilson: Yeah, right. And so you know, it didn't shy away from that, it wasn't this kind of glory thing where it was like that component wasn't even told. You have to look at who is telling the story, yes, and how they're telling it. And I think they were very careful and very smart and very thoughtful how this story was being told. It all balanced out.

[36:48] Frederick Johnson: I don't know Lapita, I don't know what context she said it in. I don't know if it's the truth, I don't know if they didn't want her, and then she got to say that she didn't. I don't know what all of that is, but I feel like her acclaim is based on playing a slave.

[37:03] Indira Wilson: Yeah.

[37:03] Frederick Johnson: And so she didn't have a problem going to another country doing a film about slavery and slaves where she's playing this tortured slave. Like that was okay to do.

[37:12] Indira Wilson: Well, the truth is the truth, right? So there were slaves here. You came here and did that. To be comfortable or have a much of a disconnect to be able to play as an American slave. And I didn't see 12 Years a Slave. So I don't know what kind of slave she was or what was going on.

[37:28] Frederick Johnson: Yeah.

[37:28] Indira Wilson: Um, but to be comfortable with the people coming here and being comfortable with doing that, but then having an issue with talking about the things that happened in their own culture.

[37:40] Frederick Johnson: Right. Well, what stories do you want to be as part of telling? Especially if it's, you know, these women at the end of the day, it's really about, like you said, these women who were warriors. Highly skilled trained killers.

[37:54] Indira Wilson: Milly, you know, militia, military. You know, bow down to the queen, Ms. Davis, for pushing this movie through because people don't really understand how hard it is to get black movies made with a black lead actress, centering black women with a black direct, black female director, and a story that the people who are putting up the money, the studios have never heard of before.

[38:21] Frederick Johnson: Right. Because so often we go into situations knowing our reality and our truth. And if white people aren't familiar with it, then they can't, won't sell.

[38:34] Indira Wilson: It won't sell. All hats off to Ms. Davis for that. And so I love it even more because of that. I hope that it, you know, I don't think it will bring forth other movies like this. And I think the next person is going to have to create the will all over again.

[38:49] Frederick Johnson: Yeah.

[38:50] Indira Wilson: But she did it nowadays where people are looking for to criticize something. I feel like it's the Simon Cow syndrome, where everything is about criticizing something and trying to be clever or witty or woeful or interesting and putting something down. And we love that. And you know, we click on that.

[39:10] Frederick Johnson: Right. And we don't know the process of how things get made. And sometimes I'd like to learn more about how The Woman King got made. And I'd like to know more of history around. So did the Dahomey Kingdom then fall because the slave trade ended? Because the way they treated it in the movie was that they were gonna stop selling their neighbors and start selling palm oil.

[39:44] Indira Wilson: Right. Even the king was like at first, child, there ain't no money in palm oil like the money we making now. I'm sure they were the blockbuster video store of African countries. Remember how Blockbuster used to be everywhere?

[39:57] Frederick Johnson: Yes.

[39:58] Indira Wilson: And Blockbuster didn't diversify.

[40:00] Frederick Johnson: Yes.

[40:02] Indira Wilson: They missed it on opportunity. Yes. The homies didn't diversify. And they cut that shit off. That's a lesson to learn from that, right?

[40:13] Frederick Johnson: Right. That if you decide to learn from it.

[40:17] Indira Wilson: Which we never do. And in a previous podcast, we interviewed Kit Shapiro. And Kit Shapiro is the daughter of Eartha Kitt. And at the end of it, we said, you know, well, what is next? Like, what are your plans to continue doing this? And she said, well, her what she'd been working on was trying to get a biopic made about her mother.

[40:40] Frederick Johnson: And you go, wow, there's not an Eartha Kitt biopic. There's never been a big thing. Unbelievable. And so Kit was saying in the interview how you have no idea what she has been up against trying to get a movie made. And she said that she goes into these meetings at these studios. And you know, these people don't know who Eartha Kitt is.

[41:04] Indira Wilson: As she's explaining it to them, they want to know, well, who is the white male lead going to be?

[41:10] Frederick Johnson: Wow.

[41:10] Indira Wilson: Why does it need to be centered around a white male?

[41:14] Frederick Johnson: Male, right? Because Eartha Kitt doesn't need, I mean at all.

[41:19] Indira Wilson: At all. This woman and her story is so epic.

[41:25] Frederick Johnson: Epic is the right word.

[41:27] Indira Wilson: Epic. Exactly. Uncomparable to anybody else's story in history.

[41:31] Frederick Johnson: Of course.

[41:32] Indira Wilson: I can't even imagine her going in talking about this African country that no longer exists and these black warrior women. I just can't even imagine. Nobody growing up goes to school, learns about the Dahomey Kingdom.

[41:46] Frederick Johnson: I mean, I learned in passing that in quote unquote ancient times, well, we're talking about a century and a half ago or two centuries ago. You know, there were these ancient African kingdoms, and you know, you learn you, you, you know, I remembered knowing about that, but no specifics.

[42:09] Indira Wilson: You know how we learned about it from the Budweiser from those Budweiser beer challenges.

[42:17] Frederick Johnson: You know what I'm talking about?

[42:19] Indira Wilson: Yeah, yeah. You know, even though we live in the reality of, you know, who gets to tell the stories, who has the resources and access to make these big budget films. That's the reality, and I understand that. I want to see art that is told by us that creates a little cognitive dissonance for us because the people who the black people, I'm not talking about anybody else, but the black people who oppose the movie who may not have supported the movie by buying a movie ticket and going to see it because the Dahomey were slave traders.

[43:05] Frederick Johnson: I just think is a question that we need to keep being presented with to even in the reality that you know, we rarely get to tell our own stories in the way that centers our truth and our experience and shows us as full human beings doing what humans do.

[43:29] Indira Wilson: It's just the insidiousness of racism. I'm hoping that you're wrong. I'm hoping that Viola and The Woman King actually kicks the door in a little bit wider for more film or just more art that centers women who are black and who are fierce instead of always long suffering and the resilient black person who you know goes through all this abuse and still is you know noble and keeps their head up.

[44:08] Frederick Johnson: Yeah.

[44:09] Indira Wilson: Isn't that played out now? We live that. I live it. I don't need to see it.

[44:14] Frederick Johnson: Hi. And we'll be right back.

[44:17] Indira Wilson: After a brief commercial break.

[44:23] Alistair Justin Black: Hello. I'm Alistair Justin Black from Theater and the Black. Playwright Blaine Teamer began writing Dead Weight in 2016. He finished it nearly four months later. The writing of the perfect line in a great play, or the making of a line of fine fancy wines. Takes time. Perfect example is Afro X's new and improved bougie bouger. A red wine with notes of tang, green apple, tropical punch, black cherry, and invisible grape. It's a fancy wine for those fancy moments. What was true nearly four months ago is true today. It's five o'clock somewhere. Take life one sip at a time.

[45:14] Indira Wilson: Hi! We are so glad you joined us for another episode of the Afro-Existential Podcast. And a special thank you to our guest, Kim Jackson. I've never had so much fun in my life. Email us your questions or comments at AFEX Podcast at Gmail. May I say it just once more, please? A F E X Podcast at Gmail. Please click subscribe. And follow us on Instagram at the Afro EX Theater. Anything else? Please click subscribe. And if you'd like to see the new music video for Miss Understood, visit our website at Afro EX Podcast.com. Anything else? Please click subscribe. I know these days you can't take anything for granted. We'll leave you with more of Indira as a lingerie singing Miss Understood from our next audio play, Pandora’s Trunk.

[46:07] ♪ Musical number: "Miss Understood" — performed by Indira Wilson ♪

[46:07] Indira Wilson: The ghetto ain't no joke.

[46:34] Indira Wilson: Don't know about it.

[46:57] Indira Wilson: Hey, hey, hey!

[46:59] Indira Wilson: No! I said your daddy was white. I said your daddy was white.

[47:03] Indira Wilson: Hey, no, hey, hey! I know I'm a true dog.

[47:20] Indira Wilson: No. Your daddy Jeffrey Dahmer. I said your daddy was white. Don't do that. Hey, hey, hey! I said your daddy was white. It's white girl. Don't do that. Hey!

[47:50] Indira Wilson: Thanks again for spending time with us. And as always, have a great day on purpose. The Afro-Existential Podcast is part of the Broadway Podcast Network.