This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:05] Elida Ledesma: I'm Elida Ledesma, Executive Director of Arts for Healing and JUSTICE NETWORK, and you're listening to the Afro-Existential Podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:17] Indira G. Wilson: Hi! Would you rather win one Tony Award and never get nominated again or get nominated every year but never win?

[0:25] Elida Ledesma: Hi! That's a good one. What's yours, Indira?

[0:30] Indira G. Wilson: I'm gonna pick one win.

[0:37] Elida Ledesma: And every year I'm disappointed. I'd be so sad.

[0:41] Indira G. Wilson: Oh, wait a minute. My thing was totally different. I'm working in something that was worthy of being nominated every year.

[0:48] Elida Ledesma: You get that one, you may never work again. But to get nominated, you're in a good show every year.

[0:54] Indira G. Wilson: And you know, the other part is the other show. The show off stage. The show where you like Susan Lucci, you know, you look good. Your fans, they are fighting for you. They are mad. You know, you get to have the whole other show where you show up and they're talking more about you than the chicks that won.

[1:17] Elida Ledesma: And after she won that Emmy, theoretically speaking, we've never heard of Susan Lucci again.

[1:21] Indira G. Wilson: Wait a minute. That gives me an idea. What are you going to do?

[1:26] Elida Ledesma: Alright, I'll give back my Tony.

[1:32] Indira G. Wilson: Give it back.

[1:34] Elida Ledesma: Hi! It makes it easier to do what must be done.

[1:37] Indira G. Wilson: Ladies and gentlemen, we invite your apprehensive listeners. Hello and welcome to the Afro-Existential Podcast and our interview series entitled Creating Art in Crisis.

[1:48] Indira G. Wilson: I'm Indira G. Wilson.

[1:49] Elida Ledesma: And I'm Blaine Teamer.

[1:51] Indira G. Wilson: Guys, thank you so much for joining us as we explore and share with you how these unprecedented times are affecting creativity and how artists and art organizations are processing it all and finding solutions to take their creative efforts to the next level.

[2:07] Indira G. Wilson: In this episode, we speak with Elida Ledesma, Executive Director of Arts for Healing and JUSTICE NETWORK.

[2:15] Elida Ledesma: AHJN brings together several art organizations, providing exceptional art programming to help transform the juvenile justice system.

[2:25] Indira G. Wilson: We asked Elida to speak with us about the history of Arts for Healing and JUSTICE NETWORK and explain how the program works.

[2:33] Elida Ledesma: Before we were an official network, a group of six organizations were coming together. They knew of each other, they sort of bumped into each other at the different facilities, and they were like, why don't we like get together and see what you're doing, what facilities you're at. So they began meeting as a work group under the Violence Prevention Coalition back in 2012.

[2:56] Elida Ledesma: And from that work, they were like, well, wouldn't it be cool if we sort of joined forces and offered more programming? So in 2014, they did a training for probation field officers. That was sort of the first program that they did together. And it was very well received. Probably loved it. And so they asked them if they could, if they had the capacity to do programming at six probation camps over the summer as part of the Children's Defense Fund Freedom School.

[3:26] Elida Ledesma: Individually, none of them could sort of program at all six sites, but together they were able to. So that was our first pilot program over the summer in 2016. That pilot program was incredibly successful, and that's what I come in. I was a graduate student intern in public health. And I was asked to come in and evaluate that pilot program over the summer.

[3:50] Elida Ledesma: Everybody saw the value of it, probation really wanted to keep it ongoing. And so in 2016, those founding members decided to become their own entity. And we became a network.

[4:05] Indira G. Wilson: What were the I'm curious about what the organizations, the six organizations were, and were they related to the arts specifically?

[4:14] Elida Ledesma: They were. So we had three poets, Inc., Inside Out Writers, the Coalition for Engaged Education, New Earth, the Unusual Suspects, and I believe it was the Armory, if I'm not mistaken. And they were all doing different art disciplines at the time. We're an open network. So since then, some members have evolved off, and we've got new members. So now we're at 13 fabulous members that we have.

[4:42] Indira G. Wilson: So together as a network, can you give us what the mission statement of the network is?

[4:47] Elida Ledesma: Sure. So part of it is we're a collaborative that provides arts programming through that collaborative to build resiliency, to build wellness with young people, but also with adults to eliminate recidivism, but also to transform the juvenile justice system. And I think that's what makes this network so unique is that we're really focused at the individual, but also at how do we change the systems.

[5:14] Indira G. Wilson: That's what I thought was so fascinating about it. Because most of the organizations I've heard of are focused for kids who are at risk. And so looking at the kids who are in the system and then trying to figure out how to change the system was really fascinating.

[5:35] Elida Ledesma: And is it a thing where the people who are in the working in the system that they realize that the system needs to be fixed, or are they like, there's nothing wrong with it? Why do we need to fix it?

[5:45] Elida Ledesma: It's a little bit of both. And I think what makes it so powerful is that we, you know, we get to work with young people who are experiencing incarceration. Bring the arts as a way for them to tell their story, which humanizes them and helps people who might not necessarily understand, who might have preconceived notions of who these young people are to have a different side of the story.

[6:08] Elida Ledesma: When we do work with probation officers, so part of one of the things that we do as a network is we do trainings with adults who work with young people, including probation. A lot of them have similar stories to the young people that they work with. They begin to realize like along the way, something happened that maybe they either lost the reason why they joined probation, why they wanted to go into the field, which is really powerful for them to have sort of that realization.

[6:35] Elida Ledesma: But even when we do our advocacy to have a young person tell their own story to the, you know, county board of supervisors or to whoever they're talking to to have that sort of lived experience at the table, it's been really impactful.

[6:48] Indira G. Wilson: I imagine that youth that are incarcerated must have a difficult time trusting people and have a difficult time sharing their story. And I think that is really powerful to help dismantle that in a youth to be able to share their actual story.

[7:05] Elida Ledesma: And it's always a fine balance when we're working with young people because we want them to be able to tell their story, but we want it to be done in a way where they have agency in a way that doesn't feel tokenizing in a way that doesn't feel like we're exploiting what happened to them, but in a way that is strength-based. So part of when we work with our young people in advocacy, especially in youth development, is what do you feel comfortable sharing? What story do you want to tell? And whenever they're ready.

[7:38] Elida Ledesma: So if they're not ready to share, for them to be able to say, like, no, I don't, I don't feel comfortable. I don't want to share this part of the story. But to have, you know, young people sort of see them move through and have young people who are really shy, who don't really want to talk to now become like youth leaders in different spaces has been so it's really inspiring.

[7:58] Elida Ledesma: It really makes me think about how I show up and my own sort of fear and hesitation. Young people are brave. They really are and want to be able to trust someone and share their experience, but really need or hoping that people can listen to it and see them.

[8:20] Elida Ledesma: And that's something that has come up when we talk to our young people, when we sort of debrief and talk to them, they really have emphasized that a lot of places now invite young people to be in this space, but they're not acknowledged or they're not asked for their opinions. They're sort of just there because it's the right thing to do. It's like let's invite young people at the table. But once they're at the table, they're not recognized.

[8:43] Elida Ledesma: And so young people are really keen to say, if you're inviting us, give us the space to talk and listen to us. Don't just invite us for the sake of having us there, but actually include us in the conversation. And that has been really powerful for us.

[8:57] Indira G. Wilson: What a great, but that's a great tool to get them prepared for adulthood when you're an adult and you're invited to the table and no one is really listening to you.

[9:05] Elida Ledesma: Yep, a hundred percent. And I would imagine, as incarcerated youth, they're doubly underestimated, not only as being youth, but also people's implicit bias about what you can really expect from someone they may see as a criminal or potential criminal in the future.

[9:23] Elida Ledesma: Yes. I think that's where the arts, you know, it's one of those things where it's so unassuming. I think that's the vehicle that we use for young for people to see these young people in a different light. Because once they start reciting what they write, when they show what they draw, it's really hard to continue to hold on to that sort of idea that you have of these young people and you start seeing a different side.

[9:48] Elida Ledesma: And even when we do culminations or performances inside where we invite families and friends, even parents will tell us this is the first time we've seen my child this way. We've never seen them behave as a child or as a kid. And that's powerful to start sort of changing how adults see these kids. I mean, they're some as young as 12 years old, and to really see them just be kids and how creative, but really their stories that sometimes are so heartbreaking at that age.

[10:17] Elida Ledesma: I think it starts to change the narrative of youth incarceration and who are reincarcerating and why.

[10:23] Indira G. Wilson: Can you tell us more about the arts programs that the kids interact with?

[10:28] Elida Ledesma: Sure. So all of our members do the direct programming. So it's a variety, it could be dance, it could be creative writing, music, and we do 12-week cycles. So part of it is that we rotate our members across the different sites so that if a young person doesn't necessarily want to do theater in 12 weeks, they might be interested in engaging with recording or dance.

[10:51] Elida Ledesma: There's a sort of a really nice handoff where young people know that we're part of a network. So we make it very intentional when one of our members rotates off to let the young people know who the next organization coming in is, knowing that they're all connected. And it starts to build a wider network of support for this young person when they come out. So they can they have multiple touch points and whatever art discipline that they're interested in, we're able to connect them with on the outside as well.

[11:17] Indira G. Wilson: And how do the organizations that become a part of it? How do they collaborate and work together?

[11:27] Elida Ledesma: I will have to give kudos to all of our members because they have really built a culture with the network of sharing. They share curriculum, they share exercises, really to build the best practices for working with young people.

[11:44] Elida Ledesma: And so it's really amazing that you have, you know, 13 executive directors that really show up and say, like, what do you need? What can we help you with? Here's what we've learned. We do collective training. So we do network-wide trainings where we invite all of the teaching artists. We have over 200 teaching artists collectively. Wow. That come together to sort of learn best practices, challenges, successes. And so that sort of culture of not operating from a place of scarcity, but really how do we work together and we can get more done together? I think has been the formula for sort of our growth in such a short time.

[12:22] Indira G. Wilson: Are you finding that these children did or did not have access to arts programming prior to their incarceration?

[12:33] Elida Ledesma: Many of them, at least from what they tell us, that was a first experience with the arts was once they were locked up. So they didn't have any resources in their communities, or at least they didn't know of any resources within their community that they could access. So for a lot of them, the arts programming inside is the first time they've been involved in or have been able to connect with any sort of arts programming.

[12:57] Indira G. Wilson: That's what I was wondering too is so many of the art curriculums in schools that they've been a lot of them have been cut. And unless possibly you're at a more affluent school where you have access to those things, I'm assuming a lot of other schools is just kind of like bare bones minimum, and not really understanding the significance and the importance of the arts for young people.

[13:29] Elida Ledesma: Yeah, it's sadly the first thing to go. Yep. And I think that's in particular because this group of young people that our members work with, a lot of them have been pushed out of the traditional school system. So a lot of these young people are already at a disadvantage because school districts have sort of said, we give up on you, we don't want you back in our schools. And so a lot of them are not even enrolled in traditional school settings. But there's this idea of the arts as a luxury or as this additional thing that I think we are trying to change and say, no, the arts are core to youth well-being, and everybody should have access to the arts because it inherently brings sort of healing and time for reflection and processing. And so it's not this like, oh, it's nice that you do art, but actually that that's a really core and vital thing for every young person to have access to.

[14:22] Indira G. Wilson: Yeah, it really helps with expression in all of your classes. You know, you can't hearing one's voice, being able to express your ideas, speak out in class, so much of that comes from the arts. It's something that really is taught. People think that it's a natural for some people it is natural, but you know, but in general, it's not.

[14:48] Elida Ledesma: Yep. It's very easy to be in your show. Yeah, and even with adults, I mean, since the pandemic, we've been doing a lot of arts training for adults who work with young people. And even a 60-minute workshop where they get to write or they get to draw, I think it taps into that creativity and they realize like, why is this so important? Just spending some time to do something creative. And that helps, I think, for them to experience it, what we get to do with young people, and they get to see the value of it. Because we can tell them, right? Like, this is why this is important and why we need to do it. But until they get to actually experience it, then they really are like, oh, now I get it. We get it. We understand. We need more of it.

[15:34] Elida Ledesma: Absolutely. It's interesting how we have now recognized there's a right side of the brain and the left side of the brain, but we don't give equal value, equal value, equal resources. So you mentioned the pandemic, and we're curious as to what was on your agenda for 2020 and how you've you and the your organization had to pivot.

[15:57] Elida Ledesma: This year has been this year has been crazy. Yes. So one thing that the network has been doing is how do we bring this collaborative model to other regions, community-based organizations nationally? So we've doing replication work in San Diego, New Mexico, Ohio. And so this year there was a goal of traveling. And so being able to bring our members and bring young people to these regions to do convenings and trainings. And of course, all have to be halted. So we've had to sort of adapt to how do we do it virtually? It's a lot harder to do a full day event that you normally would have done in person. So now it's like, do you do five days? Do you do three days? What do you do? We were also hoping to offer more travel opportunities to our young people.

We've heard repeatedly that traveling and having exposure to other places is transformative for young people. And so we were really looking forward to inviting them on more outings and more field trips, more performances and all of that. We've had to sort of rethink how do we have similar experiences in the virtual space? It's a lot harder. They're usually one location for your instruction.

[17:18] Indira G. Wilson: So were you able to do that? Were you actually able to change things over to a virtual setting?

[17:27] Elida Ledesma: You know, I mean, across the board with the children. We were we, I mean, and this is another thing of working with creatives, right? They are like, how are we gonna make this work? I mean, I'm just in awe of their ingenuity. I mean, they were coming up with this like amazing virtual curriculum where I'm like, what? Who are you? Like, this is amazing. And so we've been able to resume programming at all of the facilities, either through just phone calls. So in some halls, we have to call. So it's all for like over the phone. We've been able to do video conferencing, Instagram live, Facebook. You tell us what platform and our members will adapt to it. We've learned so much about virtual platforms and Zoom and oh my God.

And it seems like, you know, what's been amazing about the pandemic is that these are all things that probably would have taken everyone a longer time to embrace. And come, you know, complained about oh, we can't this is just too much. And then the pandemic hit and it was like, no, we gotta make this work and like really learn it and adapt to it really, really quickly. I mean, since March, mid-March, when sort of the first safe red home orders went in, it really felt like a whirlwind, and everybody was trying to adapt. How do we? I mean, and really our members were keenly aware that, you know, especially in the detention sites, the young people didn't have visitation anymore. So they were really, I mean, they were already in isolation.

Now they were really in isolation. And so they were like, how do we get back there? Like they need some sort of contact. They're not getting schooling, their parents are not able to visit. And so that was really their driving force of like, what do we need to do to get cooked in? Because some like they knew that they might be the only people that the young people had contact with during this time. But it was just, I mean, it was a lot of learning really fast, a lot of trial and error really fast. But they managed it. I mean, amazingly.

[19:41] Indira G. Wilson: What do you think has been one of the most interesting things or collaborations or innovations or something that came out of it that really kind of sticks out for you?

[19:53] Elida Ledesma: Our members have put together these really amazing bite-sized videos that they pre-record around like how do you draw an eye or how do you draw or really intentional like making sure that there's at least something if they can be there live that they can at least send a recording or a USB drive. And you see these like mini productions that are so amazing where you're like, oh my God, like cool. Because a lot of people think, you know, how long can it take you to put a 60-second video together? Like that doesn't take a long time. And actually, your members were like, Well, you need, you know, a meeting to discuss it, you need a script, you need pre-production, post-production, you need all these things that goes into it that actually takes a little bit longer than folks with things.

So we had to do a lot of advocacy in terms of continuing to pay the teaching artist for their time and for prep time and being like they're actually working harder now to adapt to virtual. So they should be compensated fairly. But I think this is gonna make us as a nation, maybe as a world, reevaluate how much teachers should get paid. Because every teacher I know is stunned at the fact that it's 24 hours a day, that they've never worked harder in their lives, and I'm highly impressed, like you, when I see the work, when I see the videos, how they manage to pivot and come at their job so enthusiastically. It's been amazing to see.

[21:30] Elida Ledesma: That's been very motivating for me. I mean, it I think it really shows how resilient we are. I mean, it's been it's I mean, it's not to minimize because it's been it's been tough, but to see how people have risen to meet the occasion and to talk about our members and our teaching artists, many who are also parents or who have other responsibilities, and definitely to show up, you know, day after day, week after week, and to really be asking what are we, what can we do? How can we change? How can we continue to support has been really remarkable. So definitely really impressed by just the teaching artists and all the teachers, definitely. The hard work, I just can't, I can't even imagine. Cannot imagine, and kind of in the dark in a way, too, and then having to show it in the light.

In front of everyone, like not sure if this is what you need, but having to come in strong. Here we go, here we go, you know, and then have to go back and do it again the next day, like every day must be nerve-wracking in the type of nerves you have, like the anxiety you have when you have performance anxiety. Right. You're like, I did all this work, and what if it just sucks? Not helping it one single child. Not one child. And I would imagine, like in most situations, you're doing it, they're doing it in a vacuum of sorts, and so you're kind of creating or trying to figure out something because there is no kind of blueprint or map to kind of go by. So you're like, well, let's try this. And it may work and it may not work.

[23:03] Elida Ledesma: Oh, it's a lot of trial and error. A lot of figuring out what do young people respond to, what resonates, what's gonna get their attention. For example, like with dance, like that's one of the harder ones where like, how do you teach dance and show your whole body on a zoom little box? Like, how do you work around that and how do you continue to adapt and you know, Zoom burnout is real?

[23:28] Elida Ledesma: So we have a lot of young people that at the end of the day don't want to turn on their cameras just because they're so tired and they're exhausted.

[23:36] Indira G. Wilson: And so, how do you try to work around that and encourage folks to turn on their videos?

[23:42] Elida Ledesma: So definitely a lot, a lot of trial and error.

[23:46] Indira G. Wilson: Yeah.

[23:46] Elida Ledesma: You know, speaking of burnout, this is a side note. I just realized, you know, when you look at all the people in a class, you know, you get to relax differently when you're not in a zoom. Whereas, like, even if the teacher looks away for a moment in the zoom, there's still 30 people looking at you. There's no swapping bags, there's no rolling your eyes, there's no kind of scratch. You can't think about scratching your hair even. People are like, what is wrong with her hair? You know, you can't you have to be like on at all times. I'm gonna have more sympathy on my son who does not want to turn off, turn on his camera because he likes to move, you know, and someone would probably scream just for him to sit down.

[24:29] Elida Ledesma: I that's one thing that I sort of had this conversation with somebody recently about like empathy. You know, I tend to think when somebody doesn't turn on their camera that it's about me. Like, oh, you're not interested in me, you're not paying attention to me. But I don't know what's going on on the other side of that black screen. And so I think having that empathy of like, we don't know, you know, a lot of the young people sometimes have living situations where they're embarrassed to turn on their camera. Um, they have siblings, they have parents, they have, you know, they live with extended family. And so to have that empathy and understanding is so crucial right now. I think that's the only way we're gonna get through.

[25:07] Indira G. Wilson: So now that you've gone through all of this, and even though we have a vaccine coming, there are still a lot of organizations out there that are searching for ways and that are trying to pivot. Could you share with artists or other art service organizations any helpful tips that you've learned?

[25:29] Elida Ledesma: Trust in the value of your work. And I think the what I've seen with our members and have they been able is it's a trial and error. If the first one doesn't succeed, don't give up. Just keep trying what works for your own discipline, for your own artwork, for your own practice, and believe that I think the value of what you're providing. So I think in this time there's a lot of maybe minimizing of the role of the arts, but this is the time that we need it the most. So know that what you're offering somebody out there needs it. So continue. And I think we push for funders to realize that there's not just arts for art's sake, but that there's arts because they're important in healing, especially in this moment to process a lot of the stress that everybody's experiencing. So just keep trying. Like there's value in the work that you're producing. And just don't don't stop. Don't stop now.

[26:22] Indira G. Wilson: You mentioned like donors. How do you navigate all of this?

[26:28] Elida Ledesma: Just change is happening in regards to donors and their expectations. And I imagine there are maybe you have the same deliverables, but now something else totally different is happening. I mean, and so how do you communicate or work with funding at this point?

[26:47] Elida Ledesma: Yeah. And I will I will give a lot of credit to our current funders and our current donors. They've been a lot of our foundations and our donors have been so understanding. And a lot of our project-specific grants have been turned into general operating support, which has been incredible to have that flexibility to be able to reallocate funding as it's needed. But I think continue to update them on how we're pivoting, how we're adapting, what has changed, the impact of continuing to provide the services that we do during this time. And they've been really understanding. So I will give sort of credit for at least our donors and our funders, that they understand the crisis that we're in. And they understand that it's not a normal year. So a lot of them have pushed back our reporting deadlines and our deliverables and what they are expecting, knowing that it's unprecedented challenges and we're figuring it out.

[27:49] Elida Ledesma: And I think it's looking, you know, ahead to next year. A lot of the budgets are being cut, a lot of the county department budgets are being cut. And so it's sort of bracing ourselves of what is the next year, two years ahead gonna look like for our organization specifically.

[28:07] Indira G. Wilson: We're gonna take a short break, and when we come back, we're gonna play a round of Would You Rather with our guest, Elida Ledesma.

[28:20] Alistair Justin Black: Hello, it's Alistair Justin Black from Theatre in the Black. While in quarantine, I just finished reading the audacious and hilarious novel entitled Shady by Blaine Teamer. And I'm trying to decide now where to place it in my vast collection of books. You see, it has deception and psychological tension and all the evil of a classic thriller. It's part Walter Mosley and part Agatha Christie mystery novel. But in Zilva, who done it is more like a who done did it now. Spinning a tale of deceit, sex, humor, and race. Where evil is not easier to get rid of. Go today's Amazon or wherever you order books online and get Shady.

[29:15] Indira G. Wilson: That's Shady by Blaine Teamer.

[29:18] Indira G. Wilson: And we're back. We asked Elida Ledesma, executive director of Arts for Healing and JUSTICE NETWORK to stick around and join us for a round of the Afro-Existential Podcast version of Would You Rather?

[29:30] Indira G. Wilson: Ladies and gentlemen. It's time for the Afro-Existential Podcast game show. Would you rather?

[29:40] Elida Ledesma: Now when you're marked, let's start.

[29:40] Indira G. Wilson: What are you talking about? What's wrong with you?

[29:44] Indira G. Wilson: Okay, so we're gonna do Would You Rather have attended Beyoncé's closing night at Coachella or opening night of Hamilton?

[29:55] Elida Ledesma: Beyoncé.

[29:56] Indira G. Wilson: What about you, Indira?

[29:58] Indira G. Wilson: I'd say Beyoncé. Opening nights are terrible. I don't want to see until it's well honed, you know.

[30:05] Elida Ledesma: But it was hard. That was difficult.

[30:08] Indira G. Wilson: I know this isn't about me. The hesitation, like, I don't want to sleep in a tent at Coachella. So I'm assuming like I just got there for the closing event, so I'm fine with that. I don't like people touching me. So that's a whole other problem.

[30:22] Indira G. Wilson: Would you rather be a successful artist who sells uninspired commercial art or a starving but brilliant artist?

[30:31] Elida Ledesma: I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go with I'm gonna have to keep my integrity as an artist and hope that one day somebody will discover me and love my music and my art for what it is.

[30:45] Indira G. Wilson: While I'm alive, while I'm alive.

[30:46] Elida Ledesma: And Indira?

[30:47] Indira G. Wilson: Oh, you know what the answer is.

[30:49] Elida Ledesma: Hey, I can't help what the masses receive. I can't help it. You know, I that's none of my business. You know, art is subjective.

[31:01] Elida Ledesma: A because you know, then I'd have more money. This is how I'm gonna clean this up, because then I have more money to help people with their own.

[31:09] Indira G. Wilson: And I can give it to you, Elida.

[31:13] Elida Ledesma: I'll give you part of my money.

[31:16] Indira G. Wilson: Thank you.

[31:17] Elida Ledesma: No, no, she being sold on option A right now.

[31:20] Indira G. Wilson: So would you rather be a character in a Harry Potter novel or a dancer in a Beyoncé video?

[31:30] Elida Ledesma: You mean in the movie? You mean be a character in play a character in the movie?

[31:34] Indira G. Wilson: Well, there were books first, but so there's a character on you in the book.

[31:40] Elida Ledesma: You mean like, oh, really? Like JK Rowling met us, Elida, and was so inspired by us that she solidified us into the history of the world.

[31:52] Indira G. Wilson: Or you're both backup dancers in the single ladies video.

[31:56] Elida Ledesma: Oh, I'm gonna go with the Beyoncé backup dancers.

[32:01] Elida Ledesma: I just I just single ladies. I have to like you know, I'm doing the hand gesture now.

[32:07] Indira G. Wilson: We know half the choreography already.

[32:10] Elida Ledesma: We're ready. I mean, like we really do 50% of it just off the top of our head.

[32:18] Indira G. Wilson: It would be different for like the formation video because there's so many dancers in that that you would get lost.

[32:25] Elida Ledesma: But in the single ladies, like you're highlighted, like you're right, you know, you're through the whole thing.

[32:29] Indira G. Wilson: Yeah, yeah, it's history, it's history and her story.

[32:36] Indira G. Wilson: Okay, Roscoe's chicken and waffles or Red Lobster?

[32:40] Elida Ledesma: Those biscuits at Red Lobster, they're so good.

[32:44] Elida Ledesma: It's worth a trip.

[32:50] Elida Ledesma: I'm gonna have to go with Roscoe's though. I mean the chicken. I mean, fried chicken. I just can't say no to fried chicken.

[32:56] Elida Ledesma: I haven't had anything nasty at Roscoe's, not one single thing. You know, if you ever had the rice and the gravy, I don't even eat rice and gravy. Like, just if you just once in a while, go just get a bowl of rice and gravy. You're like, what is in this gravy?

[33:11] Indira G. Wilson: Chicken.

[33:14] Elida Ledesma: It's chicken grease. That's what it is.

[33:17] Elida Ledesma: And fat. In fact, so good.

[33:19] Indira G. Wilson: Oh, you know what? I'm gonna put that on my list of things I want to do today.

[33:22] Elida Ledesma: Okay, Roscoe's takeout.

[33:25] Indira G. Wilson: Either Red Lobster or Roscoe's just listening. They should definitely do some sort of advertisement.

[33:30] Elida Ledesma: They should probably add for you all.

[33:32] Indira G. Wilson: Exactly.

[33:34] Elida Ledesma: They'll definitely be hashtag, right?

[33:38] Elida Ledesma: For this wear too much makeup or too much perfume for one year.

[33:44] Indira G. Wilson: Oh.

[33:46] Elida Ledesma: How much make like too much?

[33:48] Indira G. Wilson: Whatever is too much for you. You gotta do that for a whole year.

[33:52] Elida Ledesma: Perfume.

[33:54] Indira G. Wilson: Perfume.

[33:55] Elida Ledesma: Yeah, I'm gonna go with perfume.

[33:56] Indira G. Wilson: Do you have to see my face?

[33:58] Elida Ledesma: I mean, what would be a clown make?

[34:01] Indira G. Wilson: I'm thinking like really over like hardcore.

[34:05] Elida Ledesma: Hardcore makeup.

[34:06] Indira G. Wilson: I don't know.

[34:07] Elida Ledesma: And there I'm looking at you.

[34:08] Indira G. Wilson: Oh, you mean validation in my well, I can't take smells anyway.

[34:12] Elida Ledesma: As a little girl, I thought I was gonna be one of those people that had all the little aspirator bottles set up with perfume in it.

[34:19] Indira G. Wilson: Every I can't take it at all.

[34:21] Elida Ledesma: Like I literally, like I can't take it.

[34:24] Indira G. Wilson: So I would be on YouTube University learning how to beat my face like a season 12 contestant on RuPaul's drag race and just be beat all year.

[34:34] Elida Ledesma: Eyes done, lashes done.

[34:37] Indira G. Wilson: I'm fascinated by it.

[34:39] Elida Ledesma: I never understand it.

[34:40] Indira G. Wilson: I'm a real low maintenance gal, but when I see it, I mean I'm fascinated.

[34:46] Elida Ledesma: I have no idea.

[34:48] Elida Ledesma: I would definitely look like the clown from it versus Portia Williams from Real Housewives of Atlanta because her face is beat.

[34:57] Indira G. Wilson: I sit there and think all the time.

[34:58] Indira G. Wilson: Like, what is the foundation?

[35:00] Elida Ledesma: What I'm over here still using CoverGirl.

[35:02] Indira G. Wilson: You know what I mean?

[35:04] Elida Ledesma: Five dollar foundation I've been using since I was 13. It's terrible.

[35:07] Indira G. Wilson: It's terrible.

[35:09] Elida Ledesma: But I would have to get, I would walk around.

[35:11] Indira G. Wilson: People would be like, Indira really is invested in those eyebrows.

[35:16] Alistair Justin Black: Now if she could just lower them an inch, it would be perfect.

[35:19] Indira G. Wilson: That's right.

[35:20] Alistair Justin Black: Like a little less than.

[35:23] Indira G. Wilson: Would you rather have the artist of your choosing paint your portrait to hang in the Louvre Museum for all time?

[35:32] Alistair Justin Black: Or find and buy an original Basquiat painting at a yard sale for five dollars?

[35:40] Indira G. Wilson: Can I then resell it and make like some money?

[35:46] Alistair Justin Black: Because then if that is a yes, I'll go with option B on that one.

[35:50] Indira G. Wilson: That's always my dream.

[35:53] Alistair Justin Black: That's my that should have been the name of my production company.

[35:56] Indira G. Wilson: What?

[35:57] Alistair Justin Black: Hit for a lick.

[36:01] Indira G. Wilson: Yes, I agree.

[36:02] Alistair Justin Black: B.

[36:03] Indira G. Wilson: I want to find a Basquiat where people think it's trash.

[36:06] Alistair Justin Black: Right.

[36:06] Indira G. Wilson: For five.

[36:08] Alistair Justin Black: For five dollars.

[36:09] Indira G. Wilson: You can then pay whoever you want to paint your picture and get it in the Louvre.

[36:15] Alistair Justin Black: Right.

[36:16] Indira G. Wilson: You could buy a wing of the Louvre.

[36:18] Alistair Justin Black: Of the Louvre.

[36:19] Indira G. Wilson: And just have portraits of you in the Louvre.

[36:23] Alistair Justin Black: You know?

[36:24] Indira G. Wilson: Like with your name on the wall.

[36:28] Alistair Justin Black: Well then your Basquiat painting in your hand.

[36:37] Indira G. Wilson: That's like great.

[36:40] Alistair Justin Black: Okay, last question.

[36:42] Indira G. Wilson: Would you rather be in a mediocre Broadway musical with your favorite actors?

[36:48] Alistair Justin Black: Or being in a brilliant Broadway musical with your least favorite actors?

[36:55] Indira G. Wilson: Brilliant with your least.

[36:57] Alistair Justin Black: So you're saying being in like Hamilton you're in Hamilton finding out that everybody sucks right except for you or except for me right I'm a good person and at least I think I am usually you're the bad person if everybody's sucking it's you you're the problem or you're saying being you're in like Carrie the musical and it's everybody that you just love and want to be with and want to work with but carry the musical at Red Lobster dinner theater Red Lobster Dinner Theater I'm in carrying bloods falling down while people are eating their crab legs okay but everybody I'm just like just happy happy joy joy but then I'm in Hamilton at Hamilton and Lynn Manuel sucks which I'm not saying that he does but I'm just saying he's the devil.

[37:48] Indira G. Wilson: Right.

[37:48] Alistair Justin Black: But is he like mean to like is he like are they like bad in terms of like their performance bad or are they just mean like mean girls mean to you I think they're mean girls so every time before you step out on stage they're like you suck and then you I hate your voice saying if you think you can Eliza or whatever did you gain some extra weight this week I think you did I just see what the crap happens selling the red lobster theater right now for me.

[38:31] Indira G. Wilson: Um, I know, right?

[38:33] Alistair Justin Black: Oh.

[38:34] Indira G. Wilson: But you're in Hamilton.

[38:38] Alistair Justin Black: True that that might be worth hmm like I want to say, I'm gonna jump this one.

[38:38] Indira G. Wilson: I'm gonna jump this one.

[38:45] Alistair Justin Black: Cause I want to say B, right?

[38:47] Indira G. Wilson: I want to say B, you know, more so because you think the work, the show is so incredible, it's such a dream.

[38:53] Alistair Justin Black: And I do know a lot of people that when they finally got on Broadway, they were like, This sucks, these people suck.

[38:59] Indira G. Wilson: I I I have to get out of here.

[39:01] Alistair Justin Black: It's killing my soul.

[39:02] Indira G. Wilson: My voice is gone.

[39:03] Alistair Justin Black: I want to stab everybody, but I can't because I signed a contract.

[39:06] Indira G. Wilson: I'm only making five dollars.

[39:09] Alistair Justin Black: But but but I'm on Broadway.

[39:11] Indira G. Wilson: I know so many people like that.

[39:13] Alistair Justin Black: Yeah, and I've for certainly quit things where I've gone and been like, y'all are crazy.

[39:18] Indira G. Wilson: Child, life is too short.

[39:20] Alistair Justin Black: Lesser things than Hamilton, though.

[39:22] Indira G. Wilson: Or sending out the evites to hey everybody, I'm at the Red Lobster doing they know they like them biscuits.

[39:30] Alistair Justin Black: You get a full house.

[39:31] Indira G. Wilson: Alita would be there.

[39:33] Alistair Justin Black: Alita would be there.

[39:34] Indira G. Wilson: I'll show up.

[39:35] Alistair Justin Black: I'll show up for your performance.

[39:36] Indira G. Wilson: Don't worry.

[39:37] Alistair Justin Black: Actually, you have really given me an idea because I've done a lot of things, you know, that people didn't come to.

[39:45] Indira G. Wilson: But I'm realizing if it was Red Lobster Dinner Theater, I every night I'd have a packed, joyful, greasy fingered house.

[39:54] Alistair Justin Black: People eating them shrimps, because they would just be stuffed and full of just sweet, sweet liquor.

[40:00] Indira G. Wilson: You know, when they finally started serving liquor, it's just sweet Kool-Aid and vodka.

[40:00] Alistair Justin Black: It's just sweet.

[40:06] Indira G. Wilson: I don't even remember how bad the performance was.

[40:09] Alistair Justin Black: It'll be like, that was amazing.

[40:11] Indira G. Wilson: It was delicious.

[40:12] Alistair Justin Black: Her performance was delicious.

[40:15] Indira G. Wilson: And you guys look like such great friends.

[40:17] Alistair Justin Black: Like you were really having a good time.

[40:20] Indira G. Wilson: My favorite people.

[40:22] Alistair Justin Black: I don't know.

[40:24] Indira G. Wilson: I feel like I've been in work environments where like it's been it has not been fun.

[40:30] Alistair Justin Black: And I've been like, this is not worth this is not worth it.

[40:33] Indira G. Wilson: Right.

[40:34] Alistair Justin Black: So darn it, I'm gonna hold on to my integrity again.

[40:39] Indira G. Wilson: As much as I've you know, I wanna be in Hamilton, but I will not have Lynn Manuel, you know, Miranda judging my weight.

[40:51] Alistair Justin Black: We're gonna have a discussion about your hair, Elita.

[40:55] Indira G. Wilson: What's wrong with my hair?

[40:56] Alistair Justin Black: The same hair.

[40:58] Indira G. Wilson: Soul crushing.

[41:00] Alistair Justin Black: Lynn Manuel said like I would just soul crushing.

[41:03] Indira G. Wilson: So I'm gonna stick with the red lobsters where I can eat all the biscuits that I want.

[41:08] Alistair Justin Black: Well, people that love me for who I am.

[41:10] Indira G. Wilson: I'm gonna stick with that.

[41:13] Alistair Justin Black: I think I would go with the Tarzanna production of Carrie at the Red Lobster.

[41:21] Indira G. Wilson: And then I could say, then I could say, you know, I gained this weight for the role.

[41:28] Alistair Justin Black: I don't know.

[41:30] Indira G. Wilson: I know I I think I want to say Hamilton, but I feel like I wouldn't last long, and I would find myself in the Red Lobster anyway.

[41:39] Alistair Justin Black: So I might as well just skip skippity doodle straight to Red Lobster with all my friends and have a good time and eat really well, take a little takeout home.

[41:51] Indira G. Wilson: It'll be perfect.

[41:52] Alistair Justin Black: Perfection, tons of biscuits, entertaining folks.

[42:00] Indira G. Wilson: The two things that you love the most, bringing them together.

[42:05] Alistair Justin Black: Biscuits and friends.

[42:14] Indira G. Wilson: Winning combination.

[42:16] Alistair Justin Black: Hashtag winning.

[42:19] Indira G. Wilson: And just as a visual, getting to see the fake blood splash on the front row every night as they cracked open their lobster.

[42:31] Alistair Justin Black: They already have bibs though.

[42:33] Indira G. Wilson: Like they'll already have like covering.

[42:35] Alistair Justin Black: So they're already set up for that scene.

[42:37] Indira G. Wilson: We don't even have to do extra.

[42:39] Alistair Justin Black: Exactly.

[42:44] Indira G. Wilson: Yeah, I don't know if Red Lobster is listening, but I think they need to add a theater component.

[42:55] Alistair Justin Black: We are so ready.

[42:58] Indira G. Wilson: So ready.

[43:00] Alistair Justin Black: You imagine that would be great.

[43:02] Indira G. Wilson: That'd be fantastic.

[43:04] Alistair Justin Black: But now Blaine, I need to know your answer to the because I'm still thinking about this on the being being poor but with like musical integrity, or the being rich with like uh starving artist at 20 was cute.

[43:20] Indira G. Wilson: Now it's not that cute anymore.

[43:24] Alistair Justin Black: Got medical bills, sciatica.

[43:27] Indira G. Wilson: So if I gotta do some what kittens on on black velvet paintings, you got it.

[43:32] Alistair Justin Black: And know that it it's be it it's bringing joy to somebody.

[43:37] Indira G. Wilson: Somebody's gonna buy that.

[43:38] Alistair Justin Black: True.

[43:39] Indira G. Wilson: Yeah.

[43:41] Alistair Justin Black: Have some value to somebody.

[43:42] Indira G. Wilson: Kittens on black.

[43:43] Alistair Justin Black: I'd like that.

[43:43] Indira G. Wilson: I'd like to have a or I can paint you in your clown makeup, Indira, and have a clown on the black velvet.

[43:49] Alistair Justin Black: You know your grandmother already has that um painting.

[43:52] Indira G. Wilson: You remember that clown the black velvet.

[43:54] Alistair Justin Black: You remember him?

[43:54] Indira G. Wilson: That's what I'm talking about.

[43:55] Alistair Justin Black: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[43:56] Indira G. Wilson: You wouldn't this already exists.

[43:58] Alistair Justin Black: It already don't be redundant now.

[44:00] Indira G. Wilson: It already exists.

[44:01] Alistair Justin Black: I feel like all of these questions are sort of connected.

[44:04] Indira G. Wilson: Cause I'm like, if we learn that Beyonce choreography, that's how we end up at the Coachella closing act.

[44:11] Alistair Justin Black: If I'm at that Carrie Red Lobster Theater, this is why I will never win that Tony.

[44:16] Indira G. Wilson: So I feel I feel like that is just they're all my all my answers put me in the same place.

[44:27] Alistair Justin Black: I bet if we performed Carrie at the Red Lobster in Tarzanna, more people will have seen us in that production than would have seen Hamilton.

[44:37] Indira G. Wilson: That is true.

[44:38] Alistair Justin Black: Or Beyonce at Coachella.

[44:40] Indira G. Wilson: Or Beyonce at Coachella.

[44:44] Alistair Justin Black: Oh my gosh.

[44:45] Indira G. Wilson: Oh well, it has been a true pleasure.

[44:49] Alistair Justin Black: And we thank you so much for joining us today for the podcast.

[44:53] Indira G. Wilson: Yes, thank you so much, Alita.

[44:55] Alistair Justin Black: Thank you for having me.

[44:56] Indira G. Wilson: And you definitely need to keep these questions because now I'm gonna be tuning in just to just to compare and listen and sort of ponder.

[45:06] Alistair Justin Black: I'll be I'll be asking folks.

[45:08] Indira G. Wilson: So thank you.

[45:09] Alistair Justin Black: It's so much fun.

[45:11] Indira G. Wilson: Haven't laughed that hard in a minute.

[45:12] Alistair Justin Black: So well, thank you.

[45:16] Indira G. Wilson: Thank you.

[45:17] Alistair Justin Black: It's all finished.

[45:18] Indira G. Wilson: I finished it.

[45:19] Alistair Justin Black: That completes another episode of Creating Art in Crisis.

[45:22] Indira G. Wilson: We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

[45:24] Alistair Justin Black: And if you enjoyed our podcast, please check out our encore presentation of our audio play, Dead Weight, A Journey in Afro Existentialism.

[45:34] Indira G. Wilson: Written by yours truly and directed and starring Indira G. Wilson.

[45:41] Alistair Justin Black: You could if you really wanted to.

[45:42] Indira G. Wilson: We love to keep this discussion going.

[45:45] Alistair Justin Black: We know that these are very, very trying times, and sometimes it's difficult for artists to see through the muck and continue to create their art.

[45:54] Indira G. Wilson: We're so interested in the type of art that is coming out of these times.

[46:00] Alistair Justin Black: And to find out more about how you can support Art for Healing and JUSTICE NETWORK, visit their website at AHJ network.org.

[46:09] Indira G. Wilson: And what?

[46:10] Alistair Justin Black: If you have a story to share about creating art during the past year and any insight that you've gained, send us an audio clip.

[46:17] Indira G. Wilson: We would love to share it on the podcast.

[46:19] Alistair Justin Black: You can visit us at Afro EX Podcast.com to get more information about how to do that.

[46:25] Indira G. Wilson: Also, you can follow us on Instagram at the Afro EX Theater.

[46:31] Alistair Justin Black: And remember, please email us at AfroXpodcast at gmail.com with all of your thoughts and commentary.

[46:38] Indira G. Wilson: We're extremely interested as long as they're positive.

[46:42] Alistair Justin Black: I'm not taking anything negative into 2021.

[46:44] Indira G. Wilson: Right, Blank.

[46:45] Alistair Justin Black: Thank you for listening.

[46:47] Indira G. Wilson: Right, play.

[46:47] Alistair Justin Black: And have a great day on purpose.

[46:50] Indira G. Wilson: Answer me.