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[0:02] Tony Pearson: Ladies and gentlemen, we invite your apprehensive listening. I had a friend, she picked up my book, she read a few pages, she threw it across the room. Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. Brought back some of her own issues. Exactly. And she saw the comparisons in the book. She goes, I don't want to go there. And so many people are living that way today. Oh, yes. Because they are afraid to face what they went through, or for someone to know what they went through. Exactly. But we all project this perfect image of ourselves. Exactly. I want people to get emotional about it. That's why I just wrote it just as it was. Once you start thinking about it, and start bringing it out, and then tell your spouse and then tell your friends, it's okay.

I guarantee it. It's okay. I'm not embarrassed about the story anymore. My words good, bad, or ugly, but that's how I felt. And that's what I went through. So I put it on paper. Hello, I'm Tony Pearson. I am the author of Driven, a life story, and you're listening to the Afro Existential podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[1:12] Indira G. Wilson: Hey, welcome to the Afro Existential Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Indira G. Wilson.

[1:15] Blaine Teamer: And I'm Blaine Teamer. These people have powers beyond anything you can imagine. This season we'll be presenting a new interview series entitled The Breakthrough From Vision to Fruition. In this series, we hear from people who took a great idea and made it a reality. We want to know how they did it and how they got over the obstacles along the way. We hope that it helps and inspires you to make your great idea a reality.

[1:46] Indira G. Wilson: Bodybuilding icon Mr. Tony Pearson talk more about his autobiography, the nickname the Michael Jackson of Bodybuilding, and the power of forgiveness. And we have some fun with the executive director of Arts for Healing and Justice Network when we play a round of Would You Rather. And we'll be right back after a brief commercial break.

[2:07] Alistair Justin Black: Hello, I'm Alistair Justin Black from Theatre and the Black. Playwright Blaine Teamer began writing Dead Weight in 2016. He finished it nearly four months later. The writing of the perfect line in a great play, or the making of a line of fine fancy wines, takes time. Perfect example is Afro Eggs' new and improved bougie boujolet. A red wine with notes of Tang, Green Apple, Tropical Punch, Black Cherry, and Invisible Grape. It's a fancy wine for those fancy moments. What was true nearly four months ago is true today. It's five o'clock somewhere. Take life one sip at a time.

[3:05] Frederick Johnson: I'm here now with my co-host, Frederick Johnson.

[3:07] Frederick Johnson: Hello, hello, hello. In 1978, Pearson defied expectations when he won the title of Mr. America. In 1980, he became Mr. Universe and was nicknamed the Michael Jackson of Bodybuilding. And in 2020, at the age of 63, more than 40 years after his first contest, made a return to the stage winning the AAU Masters Mr. Universe. He has published his life story. They have made a documentary about it. I bought the book, his autobiography, which is called Driven, My Secret Untold Story. And I was just riveted with the resilience with the story of this man's life, which is one of just drive, you know, that's the title with resilience. This man did not give up in the face of all kinds of obstacles. Even obstacles is not even strong enough of a word for what this man faced.

[4:03] Indira G. Wilson: What was the word that you use the word um resilience? It's so exhausting as a black person to have to always be freaking resilient. I know I shouldn't have. That's what it really is, is that he just kept persevering in spite and despite. But yeah, I hear you, it's almost like resilience is it's now almost like a bad word. Like we don't want to use resilience anymore in the context of our lives. And but that's what we have to be. Right. It's as exhausting. I don't want to use it, but that's what we have no other choice but to get up and to keep on.

[4:46] Frederick Johnson: Yeah. And it's also the saying of you have to be three times better. Yeah. And it's not even like you have to be three times better and lucky. He had to be three times better and lucky. And he's still, as you guys will hear, faced all kinds of professional politics in a in a world where he was pioneering. There's so many variables and factors, including, like you said, including luck, that have to be contended with like along the way. So it's never really even just a straight shot when it seems like it should be a straight shot.

[5:18] Indira G. Wilson: Right. Well, let's uh let's listen to his interview. I'm ready. We hope you guys enjoy. We shall begin now.

[5:25] Blaine Teamer: Now, Tony, there was another political situation that that was a little bit different when you had decided to take a competition that was outside of the US. I think you had just kind of you needed the money. Got an offer. I think it might have been in Belize.

[5:41] Tony Pearson: Ben Wheeder has sent me a telegram in those days to the hotel. I arrived at the hotel. Mr. Pearson telegrams, I'll read the telegram. If you pose tomorrow, you will be suspended for life. Period. I got a decision to make. I got two dollars in my pocket. What do I do? I pose. I pose. So now I know I got a life suspension. I'm out on ITD, no publicity. And 1979, I got a call from Providence, Rhode Island. And the guy says, Well, we're not Weider sanctioned, which you pose. Yes. Gotten in great shape. I go to Providence, I pose. And the kid came running backstage. He looks at me and he goes, Man, you're in great shape. There's a Mr. World competition in New York next week. I'll drive you to New York.

Okay. So we get there and I win, Mr. World. If you win, Mr. World, you you get a ticket to London to compete for Mr. Universe. So I got a free ticket to London for the first time. I lost, come second. I thought I should have won, of course. That's how I just kind of bounced around in the following year, 1980. I'm in Germany somewhere doing shows. My friend from Paris, Serge Noubrey. Serge de Bray is a very famous French bodybuilder. He passed away recently a few years ago. I mean, class of Ezekiel the way. He says, Tony with Zach saying, why don't you come to London and try to win this time? And so okay, I'm in shape. And then I won the universe in London. I didn't plan it. It's one week before, but I was in good enough shape to win.

[7:05] Indira G. Wilson: But there is the pattern that I'm hearing in all of these stories. And all of these people are like, I was doing the work. So when the opportunity came, I was already ready for whatever it was. And none of it was planned. And there was no fear. It's almost like if you knew what you were really up against doing, you wouldn't even do it.

[7:24] Tony Pearson: Right. Me going to LA with no fear. Crazy. I'm afraid to drive to LA now. I live in Pasadena. I'm afraid to drive.

[7:32] Frederick Johnson: Well, this is like the saying, stay ready so you don't have to get ready. You do the work. If you're going to go guest pose somewhere, you better be damn in shape. I always said to myself, I don't want the competitors look better than I do. I'm the guest. So I made sure I was 100% conditioned and I wanted to go back again because when you're not in shape, they call each other. How did he look? Oh, he was fat. Like you're done. Your Matt travels through Europe, travels to America. You're done. This is before social media.

[8:02] Tony Pearson: Yes. How would a king look? Eh, not so good. Okay, good. Next. Right. I was just a standby. The guys who drop out of shows, they call me. Yes. Well, did I think about being prepared? No, because George conditioned me and myself by I'm not gonna go on stage. Those pictures will be in the magazine somewhere. And I don't want to see myself looking horrible on stage. You guess pose. I've seen other competitors do that. I felt embarrassed for them to look at the picture.

[8:30] Indira G. Wilson: Did you have any control over how you were being photographed and how the photos were set up?

[8:37] Tony Pearson: Yes, I learned out of so many of the photo issues how my profile, the look, the light, I would tell them how the light should be. Yes. I became really, really good at it. And you know, that because that meant so much to me. I would go guest posing all over the place in Europe and uh in Australia and these places, and I go, I need full light because of my skin tone.

[8:57] Indira G. Wilson: They nicknamed you the Michael Jackson of Bodybuilding. How did you get that name?

[9:01] Tony Pearson: Well, I had my nose job in 1984 because Michael had his nose job. A guy named Ricky Wayne, Rick Wayne is the one that he was the editor-in-chief of the Muscle Magazine at the time, African American from England. Put his accent, he goes, he was writing, looked at me, and he goes, You look like Michael Jackson. I'm gonna put that in the article. It exploded. That's how that happened.

[9:21] Indira G. Wilson: I recall you being at a friend's house, and he called the friend while you were there. Michael Jackson actually called.

[9:27] Tony Pearson: I was training his dermatologist, the doctor, his name is Arnold Klein. So he had a full-on gym and he says, Yeah, Michael's a good friend of mine, and he comes here weeks, he spent weeks at a time at my house. And so one day I'm training him, and he's on the leg press, and like you said, Michael called. He picks up the phone. He didn't want to stop his step, and he handed the phone to me. Here I am with Michael Jackson on the phone. I said, Hey my Michael, how you doing? I'm fine. About a third question I said, Where are you? And he paused for a really long time. He goes, I'm in LA. And that's that's the moment the doctor reached up and snatched the phone out of my hand, and that was my Michael Jackson moment. You don't ask Michael Jackson, where are you? The most private guy on the planet. But I was so excited. I wanted to say, I want to meet you, but I was embarrassed. So yeah, that was my Michael Jackson moment.

[10:17] Indira G. Wilson: And so when did you learn to speak up?

[10:19] Tony Pearson: It took a while. I had won a bunch of shows. That I think the Michael Jackson thing helped me. It inspired me. It gave me confidence. Speaking to him for that moment. That moment, no, but just how I my appearance changed. I got treated in a different way too.

[10:34] Indira G. Wilson: How so?

[10:35] Tony Pearson: Promoters who were bringing me in. I mean, they really pumped it up. I mean, they gave me like the red carpet treatment everywhere I went because he's the Michael Jackson about I had the hat, had the glove, I'm posing to the music. Oh, you go to YouTube and see all my channels. So I think that's what helped. That changed my because I didn't like my nose. You know when you don't like you don't like something about yourself. Right. So that that helped. You know, because when you go on stage, your whole body, your whole appearance is part of the part of the show, not just from the neck down for your appearance, how you look. I understood that. To me, I'm an artist because my body is the piece of clay that I'm trying to do. It's the canvas, right? And you're going for this perfection, and you know it.

[11:14] Indira G. Wilson: Yes. Right. I'm a perfectionist 100%. Because you can't be not be and win world titles. Everything you do preparing for a show has to be on point. Right. Your diet, your sleep, your training, your look, your presentation, your posing, your practice. Everything has to be on point. Everything has to be on point. And because I'm black, it has to even be beyond that.

[11:34] Indira G. Wilson: Thank you. That's another reason I would go back to the gym, win, lose, or draw, and train ten times harder because I knew in my heart I have to be ten times better to win. It has to be the point where there's no way he could lose this contest. Undeniable.

[11:49] Blaine Teamer: Yes. That's your next book.

[11:50] Tony Pearson: Your next book is undeniable.

[11:52] Blaine Teamer: I love that title. I'm seeing it. I love that title. That's good. I'm trying to imagine you've been Mr. America, you've won all these titles, you performed, you know, nationally and internationally. What was that like to feel like that your industry were that it that you are a champion in has betrayed you?

[12:12] Tony Pearson: It's gut-wrenching because you fight so hard, you work so hard, and I I and I asked myself, what did I do to offend these people? You know what I'm saying? Because I'm still young and I'm still naive. I didn't understand politics. Where I'm from, if you're the best, you're gonna win. And you know, not saying that I was the best all the time, but I think sometimes I should have won. I I had no idea. But I said, I think winning Mr. America, like I said, upset the system and they made me pay, but the judges did because they felt they gave me the title. So I had to pay the price. And I paid the whole career. The judges never accepted me, the weeders never accepted me. I got one cover from the weeders throughout my whole career during the whole career, one one cover.

And but I won Mr. Universe in London and I won Mr. World in Italy, and I got all the covers in Europe from every country. And once again, I think that helped me to get reinstated. Because they want to say, he's one of us. We'll let him back in. They won't give him anything though. So that's what's happening. But on the other side of the corn, I'm grateful they allowed me to come back in because now I could do seminars and exhibitions and make a few dollars. When you suspend it for life, you got nowhere to go. And the European thing runs dry very quickly. Once you win those big shows in Europe, even though you can do some guest posing over there, but your career is pretty much over there. The IVB is the strongest in the world in every country, and you have to be IVB.

[13:40] Tony Pearson: So they let me back in, and I'm grateful. I wrote that about in my book. I'm grateful for the weeders for allowing me to have a 20-year career. Not that I'm winning on stage, but I was always conditioned, always in shape, and I get to travel a lot and did a lot of shows. So many times as African Americans, we play by the rules. And like you said, if I'm the best, then I should win. And then eventually you realize that's not how it actually works at all, right? I learned that the hard way.

[14:08] Indira G. Wilson: Right. We all did, right? How would you play a game differently if you knew that the game was rigged against you before you went into it? You went into this competition knowing that you weren't meant to win at that moment when you're like, oh, I gotta do something different. I'm not gonna win by playing the way everybody else is, right? Because there's some dynamic. I don't know what that dynamic is, but I gotta do something different to win.

[14:36] Tony Pearson: I didn't think about it, but at that moment that I was on stage, I just said to myself, keep going, do not stop posing. It wasn't a plan. And then I said to myself, You worked too hard to get here for that one minute. And I just kept posing. Like I said, they closed the curtains and the MC can't, thank you, Tony Pearson. He kept repeating it. So the curtains open, I'm still in the shot going crazy. Once again, I felt instinctively that was my one and only chance of survival. If I don't win today, I would never get on the stage again. Before that show, I had won two junior national titles, Mr. USA, junior Mr. America, but it had no publicity behind it. They wanted bulky size back in those days.

And I was refined, chiseled, small ways, small bones, structure. So it was it depends what you want. Bodybuilding is a subjective sport, is what your preference, what you like. If I was a judge, I'm gonna vote for guys who kind of look like me, structure-wise, the Steve Reeves type of look. So it was not a plan. It was just, I just told myself in my head, keep posing.

[15:45] Indira G. Wilson: Looking back, was it you're saying body type, but was it also color type? And did that play a role?

[15:49] Tony Pearson: Yes, right. Yes, I could be wrong, but in the 70s or not. In the 70s, Joe Weider had two African American champions, Bill Grant, Robbie Robinson, like king. And then he probably looked at me and go, I don't need a third one African American because he doesn't make money. I mean, I understood where Joe came from with that. You know, he wanted to sell the magazine, he wants to sell product, but African Americans in the 70s were not selling that. On some level, I understand what he meant. And he didn't see any potential in me.

[16:21] Indira G. Wilson: This is so amazing to me because it's always that thing of like, oh well, we already have two black writers, we don't need a third writer. Right. We already have we we've met our quota. We have one black person skater, we don't need another black skater, right? Because they don't sell, but if they're not on the magazines, they're not gonna have the opportunity to sell. And if there's no, you know, you talk about publicity, people don't realize the machine that goes behind someone who they decide that's going to win.

[16:51] Tony Pearson: Yes, right. It's a whole campaign. When I turned 63, I competed with the university in Vegas. I won, but still I did that for a reason as well. Still trying to say I deserve to win that title that day 40 some years later. So and so, but that was another thing where you were just you've just been prepared as a personal as a trainer all that time.

[17:14] Indira G. Wilson: Well, I trained for that show. I spent 18 weeks training twice a day and never missed a day. That's what I'm saying is even to be able to train like that, you have to be ready.

[17:23] Tony Pearson: You do to be able to train at the level that you were about to train at to get to that point, right? Yes, even at that age. And it's a lot of work. Then but then I realized it's time to retire because it's too much to put your body through. More concerned about my health now than winning a trophy. But I wanted once again prove that to myself that I could, and I tell you what happened. Prior to preparing for that show, I said twice, I can't do it. I looked into the mirror and I said to myself, I can't do it. And then a voice came to me and said, You have never quit. You're not gonna quit now. So that's how I made it to the stage. Because I really felt I can't do it. I'm too old. The fat's not coming off the waistline, like it's fast enough. There's no way I'm gonna make it. But that voice out loud said you have never quit. So that's what got me there.

[18:19] Indira G. Wilson: You're like 65 and amazing. What do you eat? What don't you eat? I just want to know what you're doing a little bit there because you look amazing.

[18:28] Tony Pearson: I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm very consistent with your training because that's my therapy. And I'm training now now every other day because I can't go twice a day anymore. It's too much. My diet has been the same for the last 40 some years. Chicken, chicken breasts, egg whites, brown rice, yams, sweet potatoes, ground turkey, a little bit of steak. My body did rejecting the steak. Nobody used to have steaks. It's a very basic diet. It was a very simple diet, high protein, low carbs.

[18:57] Indira G. Wilson: And do you ever go like off that? Like you're in Vegas, which is the eating capital of the world, buffet capital. Sometimes you have a slice of stay away from the buffets. Because you go there and you said and you eat too much. That's not good. Right. And I haven't cheat. Like, what's your cheap food? What's your when you want it? What's your guilty pleasure food?

[19:19] Tony Pearson: I love cookies. Okay. That's my cheat. I have my cooking, and I used to love ice cream, but my body rejects it now. So I'm very limited. When you have this after 60 years, my mom said to me, When you after 60 years old, your body really changes. I mean, you, you know, you your appetite drops, your metabolism slows, certain foods you can't eat anymore. And she's right.

[19:41] Indira G. Wilson: I do. I wish we had time. I want to hear about the parties at the Playboy Mansion. Maybe we won't do that on record.

[19:49] Tony Pearson: Right. You want to hear about that. You're partying with Fabio. You're going to parties at the Playboy Mansion. There's like a whole other era of things I want to hear about. But you decide to leave LA and move and move to Las Vegas. I know that there was a period where your body really started breaking down from a lot of scar tissue.

[20:07] Indira G. Wilson: Yes. And you were there's a gentleman, Glenn Hall, who you met who you kind of knew around the gyms in Vegas, but he was actually proposing some other to you thought you were done then, prior to what you were just talking about with Blaine, this this win at 63. Is this what's happening before that leads up to that?

[20:27] Tony Pearson: Yes, I left LA, you know, the hustle and the bustle. And I really think the reason I came is because of this guy. Because I was pretty much crippled. Bodybuilding really took a toll on me. Even though my form was good, I trained, but you can't destroy your body from 1974 until then, train twice a day. It's not built to do that. So I was crippled. I had tons of scar tissue all through my body. I was in so much pain. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't train. And I was trying to train my clients. And this guy, Glenn comes over one day and he looks at me and he goes, He has these, he's a six degree black belt. So you got these eyes, and it looks through you. He says, You're in a lot of pain. I go, Yeah. And then he told me how much he charged for the hour. I said, Oh, hell no. So I'll deal with that. I ain't in that much pain. I'll deal with the pain. So I put the belt on even tighter.

[21:23] One year later, he came back to me, same gym. He looks at me and he goes, Come to me once. And he walks away. It's like a scene out of a movie. I go, okay, I'll go once. Within five minutes while he's working on me, you know, he actually goes in and he unravels scar tissue. And what happened when you get a lot of scar tissue in your body, it becomes really hard, like hard. You can't penetrate it. A regular massage would do nothing because it's scar tissue. It's the no blood is circulating through this. This is like rock hard, but he has the ability using what they call qi. And the karate guys use that chi, that energy force. He has that. We all do. We just can't channel it. He goes in, he breaks up the scar tissue layer by layer.

It's very painful. So I went through a lot of pain with him to get he got me back on stage. There's a video on YouTube where I criticize bodybuilding so much because I was in so much pain at the end of my career. That 20-year career took everything I had. My mind is stronger than my body. So I pushed my body through the pain mentally. But then, like I said, at the end, I was really done. So this guy did enough work on me to get me back on stage in 2014 when I won the master's, Mr. USA, and then 2020 when I won the universe. So without him, I wouldn't be walking. I couldn't walk. I remember my sister coming to visit me. She looks at me in one of the casinos downtown, took her downtown, and she looked at me, she says, Why are you dragging your left leg?

And I go, I don't know. I don't have I went to the chiropractors, nothing, massage, nothing, jacuzzi, nothing. I was popping peel of ibuprofen all day, Tylenol, nothing helped. Nothing worked. So that's where I was.

[23:08] Indira G. Wilson: So thank you for sharing that. Oftentimes we hear the other side of it, like, yeah, and then at 63, I competed in one again. But there was a whole long walk back to being able to be ready. And I could understand from that journey, you looking in the mirror, I mean like I can't do it. I mean, because it was just astoundingly challenging to get back to where you were. You mentioned your sister, who I loved your sister through the whole book.

[23:33] Tony Pearson: Carolyn, yeah. She was like a mainstay. She was always there. She always knew where you were. You don't even know how she knew how to find you. Like she'd just find you. And I had relatives like that. Like they know they find you, they call around, they'd figure out where you were. And I but I remember from earlier in the book, you had several siblings, and you guys all got separated when your mother left and your father gave you away to various family members. So Carolyn is the only sibling you really talk about in terms of like a long-term relationship throughout your life. What about those other siblings? Did you reunite with them? Are you guys reunited today?

[24:09] Tony Pearson: We are reunited today. My whole family are still in Memphis, Tennessee. And when I go to visit, I get to hang out with them. What was great? I went home last year to see my mom for her birthday. She's you know 89. And I got to know my older brother because we weren't driving with the store, and he's got telling about his life. And he doesn't know anything about my life. He doesn't know how I was raised. They have to read the book to see. Oh my god.

[24:35] Indira G. Wilson: So he was telling you stuff while he was raised, how different it was. Such a wonderful guy. You had this powerful reunion moment with your mother. You I think it had been over 20 years since you'd seen her.

[24:48] Tony Pearson: Yes. You had a really powerful moment where I took it as she really got to share her side of the story because she of why she had to leave her kids to save her life, and then with the hope of being able to get you guys back when she was able to get to safety. So there's that reunion.

[25:13] Indira G. Wilson: That was another really powerful moment. And then your father, who did pass away. Do you feel like you really have forgiven all three of those people? The abuser, the abandoner, the one who gave you to the abuser. Do you feel free of that?

[25:29] Tony Pearson: Yes, I do. And I think writing the book helped me a lot to kind of come to terms with all of that. Being in St. Louis after 10 years, and I said to himself, I'll never go back to Saints, but George flew me in to do a guest posing at his show, and I said I'll go. And then I had free time. I said, I need to go see Auntie Betty. I just knew in my heart I had to go. So walking into that room, it was quiet. She's sitting in the recliner. And but she was a lot smaller and weaker than I remembered because she was a bully. She was like tough, just nails, you know. And I'm all buffed. And then the conversation going back and forth, and and I forgave her because I wanted to be free myself. I forgave my dad because I, you know, I don't know what he was thinking.

He was not a nice guy. You read that part. Killed a man. He always had a gun ready in his pocket. So everyone was terrified of him. Even my aunt. She was afraid of no one, but she was stared. And when he spoke, she cowered. So I forgave my mom. She really was emotional about it and just a one-on-one conversation. So she's been in my life just all these years, and she's been my backbone. Things go wrong. I call my mom. And she always had the right answer. She had the wisdom. She goes, This is what you need to do. Or she'll say, They're not your friends. Yeah, mom. She goes, No, I can hear it in the voice. I mean, she was always right. And throughout my whole career, I was very picky instinct.

I think I'm an old soul because I always pick the right people to be around. The people you hang with, be careful. Make sure you pick good friends. People who are supporting you that believe in you and motivating you. If you're around negativity, they're gonna bring you down, they're gonna pull you down.

[27:13] Tony Pearson: So I have very few friends, but the ones I do have, I believe they're in my corner. And the people doing drugs and crime and all this crazy, I step away really quick. Or the negativity. I don't want to hear it because you're draining my energy. Woo! Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, no, seriously. Right? I forget it. So I forgave my mom. So I forgave her. You have to because you gotta free yourself. You can't have all this anger. See, this is the problem. People, young people or adults, they have all this pent-up anger because they never resolve any issues, or they don't want to face it. I had a friend, she picked up my book, she read a few pages, she threw it across the room because it brought back some of her own issues, her own situation.

And she saw the comparisons in the book. She goes, I don't want to go there. And so many people are living that way today, adults, because they are afraid to face what they went through, or for someone to know what they went through. Because we all project this perfect image of ourselves. I was very challenged reading the first few chapters because you seem to not leave any stones unturned, and you really tell it like it is. I wanted to keep going, and then I would have to stop, and then I would have to, you know, and then I'd have to like read in it. Like I knew I was going to read it. It was like I needed to know what happened, but I could feel that sense, like what your friend who threw it across the room, I could feel that sense because it forces a certain kind of self-confrontation that people may not want to encounter with themselves. And I felt that even as I was reading it, that I had to kind of keep pushing through as I was reading it and just kind of let however I was feeling come up.

[28:55] Tony Pearson: You know, I wrote that to touch emotions. I want people to get emotional about it. That's why I just wanted wrote it just as it was. Once you start thinking about it, you start bringing it out, and then tell your spouse and then tell your friends it's okay. It's okay. I mean, I have no, I'm not embarrassed about the story anymore. My words, good, bad, or ugly. I'm not a writer. The book's not perfect, but that's how I felt, and that's what I went through. So I put it on paper. Well, I would like to say you can have a new narrative, and you can say that you are a writer, and that you know your book is touching and changing people's lives. So you no longer have to say, I'm not a writer because you are okay. Okay, I gotta look at it that way. Okay. And we're looking for the sequel, which is going to be called Undeniable. Undeniable. I love that title. Undeniable. I mean, that's yeah. Hi. And we'll be right back after a brief commercial break.

[29:57] Blaine Teamer: Here it comes from the Snooty Fox Dinner Theater in El Segundo, California. It's time for the Afro Existential Podcast game show where knowledge is power. Would you rather? Now playing today are Alila Desma, Executive Director of Arts and Healing for Justice Network. And co-host of the Afro Existential Podcast, Indira G. Wilson. Now round of applause for your host, Blaine Teamer. Now when you're marked, let's start. Would you rather win one Tony Award and never get nominated again? Or get nominated every year but never win?

[30:45] Alila Desma: That's a good one. What's yours, Alila? What is yours? I'm gonna take one win. And every year I'm disappointed. I would be so sad. My thing was totally different. I'm working in something that was worthy of being nominated every year. You get that one, you may never work again. But to get nominated, you're in a good show every year. And you know, the other part is the other show, the show offstage. The show where you like Susan Lucci, you know, you look good. Your fans, they are fighting for you. They are mad, you know, and you get to have the whole other show where you show up and they're talking more about you than the chick that won. Right, I'll get back to my Tony. Right. Give it back.

[31:39] Blaine Teamer: Would you rather have the artist of your choosing paint your portrait to hang in the Louvre Museum for all time? Or find and buy an original Basquiat painting at a yard sale for five dollars?

[31:55] Alila Desma: Can I then resell it and make like lots of money? Because then if that is a yes, I'll go with option B on that one. That's always my dream. That should have been the name of my production company.

[32:10] Alila Desma: What? Hit for a lick. Yes, I agree. B. I want to find a Basquiat where people think it's trash. Right. For five. For five dollars. You can then pay whoever you want to paint your picture and get it in the Louvre. Right. You could buy a wing of the Louvre. Of the Louvre. And just have portraits of you in the Louvre. You know? Like with your name on the wall. Well then your Basquiat painting in your hand.

[32:54] Blaine Teamer: Okay, last question. Would you rather be in a mediocre Broadway musical with your favorite actors? Or being in a brilliant Broadway musical with your least favorite actors?

[33:09] Alila Desma: Brilliant with your least. So you're saying being in like Hamilton. You're in Hamilton. Finding out that everybody sucks. Right. Except for you. Or except for me. Right. I'm a good person. And at least I think I am. Usually you're the bad person. If everybody's sucking, it's you. You're the problem. Or you're saying being You're in like Carrie, the musical. And it's everybody that you just love and want to be with and want to work with. But Carrie, the musical at Red Lobster Dinner Theater. Red Lobster Dinner Theater. I'm in Carrie. Blood's falling down while people are eating their crab legs.

[33:49] Alila Desma: But everybody, I'm just like, just happy, happy, joy, joy. But then I'm in Hamilton. Which I'm not saying that he does, but I'm just saying that he's the devil. Right. But is he like mean to like is he like, are they like that in terms of like their performance bad, or are they just mean, like mean girls, mean to you? I think they're mean girls. So every time before you step out on stage, they're like, you suck. And then you I hate your voice. Saying if you think you can Eliza or whatever. Did you gain some extra weight this week? I think you did.

[34:32] Alila Desma: Red Lobster Theater right now for me. Um, I know, right? Oh. But you're in Hamilton. True. Like I want to say, I'm gonna jump this one. I'm gonna jump this one. Cause I want to say B, right? I want to say B, more so because you think the work, the show is so incredible, it's such a dream. And I do know a lot of people that when they finally got on Broadway, they were like, This sucks, these people suck. I have to get out of here. It's killing my soul. My voice is gone. I want to stab everybody, but I can't because I signed a contract. I'm only making five dollars. But but but I'm on Broadway. I know so many people like that. Yeah, and I've certainly quit things where I've gone and been like, y'all are crazy. Child, life is too short.

[35:19] Alila Desma: Lesser things in Hamilton, though. Or sending out the evites and say, hey, everybody, I'm at the Red Lobster doing. They know they like them biscuits. You get a full house. Alila would be there. Alila would be there. Also for your performance. Don't worry. Actually, you have really given me an idea because I've done a lot of things, you know, that people didn't come to. But I'm realizing if it was Red Lobster Dinner Theater, I every night I'd have a packed, joyful, greasy fingered house. People eating them shrimps. Okay. They would just be stuffed and full of just sweet, sweet liquor. You know, when they finally started serving liquor, just sweet Kool-Aid and vodka. It's just sweet. I don't even remember how bad the performance was. It'll be like, that was amazing. It was delicious. Her performance was delicious. And you guys look like such great friends. Like you were really having a good time.

[36:18] Alila Desma: I don't know. I feel like I've been in work environments where like it's been it has not been fun. And I've been like, this is not worth this is not worth it. Right. So darn it, I'm gonna hold on to my integrity again. As much as I've you know, I wanna be in Hamilton, but I will not have Lynn Manuel, you know, Miranda judging my weight. We're gonna have a discussion about your hair, Alila. What's wrong with my hair? The same hair. Soul crushing. It's so crushing. So Lynn Manuel said, like I would just soul crush it. So I'm gonna stick with the red lobsters where I can eat all the biscuits that I want. Well, people that love me for who I am. Gonna stick with that. I think I would go with the Tarzanna production. I'll carry at the Red Lobster. And then I could say, then I could say, you know, I gained this weight for the role.

[37:23] Alila Desma: I know I I think I want to say Hamilton, but I feel like I wouldn't last long, and I would find myself in the Red Lobster anyway. So I might as well just skip skippity doodah straight to Red Lobster with all my friends and have a good time and eat really well, take a little takeout home. It'll be perfect. Perfection. Tons of biscuits, entertaining folks. That sounds pretty good. The two things that you love the most, bringing them together. Biscuits and friends. Live theater. Live theater. Winning combination. Hashtag winning. And just as a visual, getting to see the fake blood splash on the front row every night as they cracked open their lobster. They already have bibs though. Like they'll already have like coverings. So they're already set up for that scene. We don't even have to do extra.

[38:51] Blaine Teamer: Exactly. And we'll be right back after a brief commercial break. We are so glad you joined us for another episode of the Afro Existential Podcast. Email us your comments or questions at AfroEXPodcast@gmail.com. And take a moment to visit us at our website, AfroEXPodcast.com for more fun and insightful content. And follow us on Instagram at the AfroEXTheater. Anything else? A special thank you to our guest, Tony Pearson. And you can follow Tony on Instagram at TonyPearson87. That's T-O-N-Y-P-E-A-R-S-O-N eighty-seven. And his autobiography Driven is available on Amazon. And to our listeners in the Netherlands, France, the UK, and wherever else in the world you may listen to us. Who beautiful you are. May I say it just once more, please? Who beautiful you are. And as always, have a great day on purpose. I accept your chest. The Afro Existential Podcast is part of the Broadway Podcast Network.