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[0:00] Bethany Joy Lenz: I am Bethany Joy Lenz, and you're listening to The Art of Kindness.

[0:43] Robert Peterpaul: Hey friends, I am thrilled to be back with you and another phenomenal guest. This person has been on my list of dream humans to speak with for a while now, truly. As you'll hear, Cass and I spent many a night awaiting the birth of our first baby. Did I tell you about that? I know, I can't stop talking about it, but she's so wonderful. Anyway, we spent a lot of time binging One Tree Hill at the rec of our friend Dom. Shout out Dom, you kind soul, love you. The show is a wild ride, but it's the characters you tune in for time and time again. And today's guest played a character at the center of it all, and she now brings to life equally compelling characters on the page with her debut novel. I am counting my lucky stars to host Bethany Joy Lenz in The Kindness House today.

Bethany Joy Lenz is a New York Times bestselling author, award-winning actress, and director, to name just a few of her titles. After penning her acclaimed memoir, Dinner for Vampires, the multi-hyphenate has written a thrilling novel, The Betrayal of Cora Wexford, which is a fantastic read, as you'll hear me say, like a broken record. Bethany currently stars in the series Hope Valley 1874 on Hallmark Plus, and is best known for her nine-year stretch as Haley James Scott on the hit CW drama One Tree Hill. She was the grounding soul of that series in so many ways. Find out more at BethanyLenz.com or the link in our show notes. I loved getting to spend some time together. We barely scratched the surface of her influence, going deep on perfectionism, how she views community after everything she's been through, the self-kindness of her writing process, and during long hours on set, we even have a special One Tree Hill surprise at the end, so stay tuned.

If you're tuning in via video on Spotify or YouTube, Bethany had to switch rooms at the top of our chat, so just a heads up so you don't worry why her background randomly changes. They're both great backgrounds. You can also catch video on our social channels at ArtofKindnessPod and at RobPeterPaul. Come join our kindness community. Aw, audio hug! If you enjoyed this episode, we'd also really appreciate the kind act of you leaving a five-star review wherever you listen. It would mean a lot to me. I felt like I was talking to a kindred spirit here today, so without further ado, please welcome the brilliant Bethany Joy Lenz.

[3:21] Bethany Joy Lenz: I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately. I can't stop. I'm expecting my first child this week, and I'm still, like, that level excited to talk to you. I've been so pumped.

[3:37] Robert Peterpaul: I'm so happy for you, oh my gosh. Thank you so much. And this conversation comes on the heels of my wife and I just finishing One Tree Hill for the first time, which I will need to pick your brain about a little bit, and then me diving into your delicious new book, which we're going to get to first, but there's just so many things. So, like, off the top here, I just want to say I truly admire how you seem to don so many beautiful hats so expertly, and most of all, you just kind of navigate each arena with such grace. And I really look up to you and admire you for that. You're like a Renaissance woman. So thanks for being here. That was just my long-winded welcome.

[4:18] Bethany Joy Lenz: Thank you. That's lovely. It's so lovely to hear, especially as someone who feels a bit more, like, frenetic and all over the place. And, like, I can't, you know, I am wearing so many hats. I don't know how to keep any of them on straight, and the word grace and elegance, whatever you just said, don't usually factor into my vocabulary of language I use toward myself. So it's always very nice to hear that, like, okay, I'm managing better than maybe I think I am. That's nice. Thank you.

[4:49] Robert Peterpaul: I know. It's all about the perspective, right? The person kind of looking at the painting sometimes has a different view than maybe being inside it, I guess, to get to your novel shortly. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. I love what you're doing with this podcast. I think it's so special and unique, and, you know, it's so funny. I was at a friend's house the other day, and she has on these, often has on these YouTube channels, like, political commentaries and stuff, and I was thinking to myself, gosh, it would be so nice if there was somebody who was just doing a channel of just, like, nice things that happen, just, like, nice things to say, and good things to encourage people on their daily life, and I was like, oh, this is so nice, when I got the email for this. I was like, this is kind of what I was hoping for. It's so great.

[5:30] Bethany Joy Lenz: Thanks. You manifested me. Before that, I was just in the darkness. I was nothing, and then you painted me into existence, but I'm so grateful that you're here, and now that I kind of, again, lamb blasted you with a compliment, I wonder, Joy, as someone who I'm sure gets a lot of them frequently, how are you at accepting compliments? How is that journey for you?

[5:51] Bethany Joy Lenz: It has been a difficult journey. I haven't always known where to put them in my body, like, I don't, I don't know where to hold them, and so it depends on who is giving me the compliment sometimes, too, but I think I've gotten a lot better than I was when I was younger. I used to bat it off. I still have the urge to want to immediately find something to say back to the person. It's really hard for me to accept that kind of a kindness without feeling like I need to pay for it in some way.

[6:30] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I know what you mean. We're very similar, especially at like a stage door. I do a lot of theater. It can be sort of like a weird dance where it's like, just say thank you, but, you know, it's tough.

[6:40] Bethany Joy Lenz: It's very tough. But the sort of fan compliments and things like that, I have gotten better at just receiving because I think I've realized that's all that they are looking for most of the time is just to know that they've been heard and whatever it is that they have been feeling, they were able to get it out of their body and I took it and took a hold of it for them. And so saying thank you, I sort of, I'm receiving that into me and I appreciate it, is the most that they're looking for, so I don't need to do more. It's more like people in my own life who will just say, hey, Joy, I just want to tell you blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, wow, thank you so much. Where do I put that? What do I do with that? I might just collapse under the weight of it.

[7:23] Robert Peterpaul: I know. I know. We need a compliment shelf, I think, in life. I don't know what that looks like, but we need it. And we need a bookshelf. We're going to get to the book, everybody, but I appreciate you and you being so vulnerable too. You know, I really related to what you've said about being lonely as a child, I think growing up in Florida and then moving around a lot. So from then until now, Joy, what would you say, for a big question here, is your definition of kindness and how do you think it's evolved over the years?

[7:52] Bethany Joy Lenz: My definition of kindness is, well, I guess definition is going to be different than maybe how I experience it or what is most meaningful to me, but I think probably the definition is an undeserved gift and something that is selfless, like a real selfless act.

[8:19] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I think at its baseline, it's a selfless act.

[8:24] Bethany Joy Lenz: Hmm. That's beautiful. An undeserved. That was an interesting word. No one's ever used that word, I think, in their definition. I guess that's sort of like grace and kindness are sort of intermeshed in my mind anyway, where there's the unmerited gift of any sort, I guess also would be more defined as grace. But to me, you can't really be kind without having that motive where it doesn't really matter what the other person is doing or not doing. It's more about what you want to offer, you know?

[9:01] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Like it costs you something and you don't always necessarily get it back.

[9:05] Bethany Joy Lenz: But that's the joke. You do get it back a lot of the time.

[9:07] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, of course. I mean, there's science behind that.

[9:09] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. And that's not why we do it. But I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm curious, I guess as we fly over your early career and get to the book, was there an act of kindness that you feel like stands out to you as changing your trajectory or life? I'm sure there were many, but what pops into the brain?

[9:27] Bethany Joy Lenz: I had a parent, a camp counselor, who was a parent of one of the other kids in my grade that I was in camp with. I don't know, sixth grade, maybe? New Jersey. So it would have been sixth or seventh. Shout out. Hey. Trump, Trump. Big hair. Oh, it is? Oh. Yeah, you can write that. Probably, yeah, sixth or seventh grade. And I think I still have the note. It was a card. And being a parent now and an adult, thinking about the – I'm going to get to what the note was. Take your time. My daughter's 15, and thinking about the effort and time that it takes to get to know a child or a teenager in a way that is meaningful, like at summer camp when you're talking and you're sharing, and then to take the time to consider who they are, what their circumstances are, what encouraging words they may need to hear, write those down, and then give it to this person, that is a selfless act.

This woman had a family, and she was a mother and had lots to do, I'm sure, and she took the time. And I don't even think I was that close with her kid. I think it was just – but it was this like – I felt like this woman could see. She just observed and had this ability to see all these deep struggles that I was dealing with that I'm sure I was wearing my heart on my sleeve. I was probably advertising all my problems. As a teenager, you don't realize. And she wrote me this card that was so encouraging and generous. There was nothing in it that made me feel like guilty or – it wasn't pointing out any of the wrong things or any of the struggles. It was just speaking positive things to all these specific areas that I was in pain about.

And it was totally appropriate and just like a lovely letter, and it meant so much to me over the years. There were many times I went back to that and just opened it up to read it and thought, gosh, thank you. Like it was so nice to hear someone be an adult in the room because I was in a household where there wasn't a lot of that at the time. So for there to be someone who was an adult in the room speaking beautiful things into me was like – I was like a withering plant and somebody just poured all the water I needed. It was awesome.

[12:03] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's a beautiful metaphor. And you have so many of those in your book, which again, I was highlighting. I don't usually like to highlight books. I don't know why it feels like I'm accosting them for some reason. I know, but I really don't. But with this one, I got it only a couple of days ago and I'm 200-something pages in. I didn't finish everybody, but I said, you know what? I'm not rushing this joy, the joy's joy, because like, you know, I had to prepare.

[12:28] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. Which one are you reading? Are you reading Dinner for Vampires or Cora Wexford?

[12:33] Robert Peterpaul: No. Cora Wexford.

[12:35] Bethany Joy Lenz: Here we go, baby.

[12:38] Robert Peterpaul: Dinner as well after this and I think there's probably some parallels. Obviously, you're the common denominator there. But yeah, thank you for sharing that story. I think that's so incredible because it speaks to just the fact that it really doesn't take much to change someone's life. And I mean you go back to that letter that the woman maybe spent, I don't know, 20 minutes, a half hour writing, whatever it was.

[12:59] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, and I also think—I don't know if you experienced this—but when you're driving on the highway, it's like there's two options. You see the car broken down and you can either stop or you can be the person that's like, "Oh, I feel so bad for them. I do. Oh, it's too late." You know, we got it. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that's not safe to do. But I was gonna say the car on the side of the road is probably not the analogy.

[13:19] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[13:20] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes, yes. There are many other moments when you see somebody struggling and you can either stop and help or you know, go on your way. And yeah, yeah, sorry. She did that for you.

[13:27] Robert Peterpaul: No, that's so wonderful. And I mean, I thought we could warm up before we get more into the book with a little flash round game that I'm calling "Lens of Kindness," so I want to get your lens on kindness. Okay? Yeah, I'm very cheesy. It's a flash round game and I'm just gonna have you complete the sentence with whatever pops into your beautiful brain. Okay?

[13:51] Bethany Joy Lenz: Okay, here we go. And you actually started to touch on this a bit. So my favorite way to show kindness is...

[13:51] Bethany Joy Lenz: My favorite way to show kindness is listening and trying to assume the best, which is a very intentional practice, and I'm honestly terrible at it, but I'm really trying every day. My daughter's great at it. She's really good at this. We put it into practice a lot. Speaking of being in the car, but you know, behind the wheel, I remember she said to me once—sorry, this is totally taken away from your life.

[14:23] Robert Peterpaul: No, I love it.

[14:27] Bethany Joy Lenz: You're so good, you're so good. I'm normally the one that derails these games. It's like a flash round and then I—yeah, yeah. She said I was so annoyed with somebody, you know, it's one of those things where like you're trying to change lanes and the person sees your blinker and speeds up just because, and you're like, "Why do you gotta be a dick about it? Like what's going on?" And I was like complaining about it and she's like, "Mom, wouldn't it just be easier to not get irritated by small things like that all the time? Like wouldn't it just be nicer to feel that way?" I was like, "I'm sorry."

[14:57] Bethany Joy Lenz: Fifteen. Yes, it would be.

[14:57] Robert Peterpaul: Fifteen-year-olds.

[14:57] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes, I guess that's what I'm working on now.

[15:02] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, like you must have done something good. It's like the sound of music. But it's hard. I try to think of the arrival sometimes. I'm like, I can get where I'm going and I can walk out of the car and be really stressed or be like at peace. I could have been stressed like going, "New Jersey" on people, you know, or I could be at peace and it's so hard. It's easier said than done.

[15:24] Bethany Joy Lenz: But yeah, I think listening, what you said as well, is such a beautiful act of kindness and that was something I admired about you as I listened to some of your podcast and in the way you kind of were able to take in people as you experienced going back and looking at One Tree Hill. And anyway, I could take us down to One Tree Hill Lane, but I could go to the next flash round here, which is I love to receive kindness in the form of...

[15:42] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, I love to receive kindness in the form of patience and clarity and honesty. And I don't necessarily want people to say mean things to me—like find a nice way to say the honest hard thing. But you know, it is such—and being New Jersey, New Jersey, I hate wasting time. I hate things that feel like—and my life is precious, time is precious. And so if I've got people in my life that are just—they see a flaw in me or something I've handled badly or something that I, you know, could be doing to be better or be more helpful or whatever—to just not say anything and let it go by because it's too uncomfortable feels like such a slap in the face. It feels like that's not real friendship.

[16:39] Bethany Joy Lenz: It feels like that's not—it's a waste of time. You're wasting my time. You're allowing me to waste my time as my friend. You're allowing that to happen in my life—like stop it. We need each other and community for this. And yeah, so and because of my super neuro spicy brain, I get misunderstood a lot. I experience a lot of rejection based on that misunderstanding and have done my whole life.

[17:12] Bethany Joy Lenz: And so the best friends I have are people who are patient where they know me and they're like, "I know your character. And so whatever you just said or are doing, I must be misinterpreting this. Can you explain what you meant by that?" Or can you like help me understand that? Why like I haven't heard from you in like three weeks and you, you know, or whatever—just you know, little things that feel like if you're giving me the patience to—and assuming the best. Very often, I just—I feel like the most awkward person all the time and very often—

[17:54] Bethany Joy Lenz: Retweet.

[17:55] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, yeah. Very often situations will come up where it just is like how I feel so awkward and I'll say things or something will happen and it looks like the most terrible coincidence where like bad timing or I've done—or I'm trying to—it looks like I'm being manipulative or it looks like I'm—and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, no, no, no." It just—I said the wrong thing at the moment that the thing happened and then I'm sorry. And so there's just a lot of that in my inner world and having people that have patience with me means so much.

[18:23] Bethany Joy Lenz: So yeah, patience and honesty and then clarity is kindness, you know? If there's ever any kind of situation, just be clear. I have no problem with people saying exactly what the situation is. Don't put—but don't put butter on the toast. Just give it to me.

[18:41] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, no, I love that so much. That's a great reminder too because I get awkward when there's tech issues on here and to just like say it to the person, it's like you're not wasting their time then. And I will first of all, I'm sorry that you get misunderstood and I can relate. I think we can all relate on certain levels because, you know, to be seen, I think is the ultimate act of kindness and the ultimate human connection just to see people, and that's certainly a theme in the book.

[19:05] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, your dog sees us.

[19:05] Robert Peterpaul: Hey, sorry.

[19:11] Bethany Joy Lenz: No, I love it. Who is this?

[19:11] Bethany Joy Lenz: This is Charlotte.

[19:28] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, oh my goodness.

[19:36] Bethany Joy Lenz: Three years.

[19:36] Robert Peterpaul: Oh my gosh.

[19:40] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah.

[19:40] Robert Peterpaul: But she hears noises outside. Sometimes it gets excited. I'm sorry, but you were saying a big thing is—I do that too?

[19:46] Bethany Joy Lenz: No joy, I was blacking out. It's all good. Your dog helped me from spiraling. But being seen is great. But the another one I have here—and I think one of the episodes I listened to recently you talked about eating cereal in the shower, but my question is if kindness were a food for me, it would be...

[20:02] Bethany Joy Lenz: So I don't know if that's what it is, but oh my gosh, if kindness were a food...

[20:12] Bethany Joy Lenz: Pizza.

[20:15] Robert Peterpaul: Good.

[20:15] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes, nice like thin medium-ish crust and like good mozzarella and basil and that the marinara sauce that just got made two days ago. So it's like second day sauce, you know, and it's just a thing that is like—it tastes so good. It makes you feel so comforted and safe and it's good for you. It's nourishing and healthy.

[20:37] Robert Peterpaul: Mmm, there's a moment when you describe making sauce in your book and it's a sad moment, but it did make me great until I kept reading.

[20:45] Bethany Joy Lenz: Until I kept reading, but it was beautiful.

[20:49] Bethany Joy Lenz: I know, it's like wait a second. Okay, tomato soup. That's what it was.

[20:55] Robert Peterpaul: So while working long hours on set, your self-kindness is...

[21:07] Bethany Joy Lenz: Gosh, taking breaks when I need to even though I would like to be social and connect and chat with people and just be friends with everybody. I know the hours are so long and I know the weight of the load I'm carrying on this show in particular, Hope Valley, because it's a period piece and we're out in the elements a lot. And so on this particular set, my self-kindness is nice isolated breaks, eating lunch alone in my room, quiet time in my trailer if I can get it, taking just wandering off and just being by myself to walk around a little.

[21:45] Bethany Joy Lenz: And you know, I hope that people don't think of it as me being aloof and just disconnecting. I think everyone's been very generous and kind. But yeah, I have to make sure that I am bringing myself back to center repeatedly throughout the day so that I can have the stamina to finish out the day.

[22:09] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's really smart and responsible of you. I wish we could all wear name tags that just said, "If I'm quiet and not talking to you, it doesn't mean I hate you. It means I need quiet time." You know, we just need name tags that say introvert, extrovert, or like extrovert on break or like introverted but ready.

[22:30] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes. Yes. Can SAG implement this for like every set? It's like just like a little—a little bracelet, a color bracelet or something.

[22:37] Robert Peterpaul: But this leads very nicely, I think, into maybe how you treated yourself with kindness during the writing process for The Betrayal of Cora Wexford, which I just love the name Cora, first of all. I did want to name our daughter Cora at one point, but it's also my therapist's name—shout out. So that was kind of weird, but I would still—I just see it here.

[22:55] Bethany Joy Lenz: Thank you. I love the name too. My niece is named Cora actually.

[22:55] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, yeah.

[23:01] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, sweet. Well, for listeners at home, you have crafted such a page-turning romantic thriller here, which centers on the post-mortem portrait painter in 1880s London who must figure out if her charming new love is secretly manipulating her all while there's a serial killer on the loose. So there's lots to unpack, but wait, I need you to follow me around with that pitch. I got to write that down. That's like the best elevator pitch of this book I've heard yet. That's better than anything I say.

[23:28] Bethany Joy Lenz: Remember, did you find it hard to do those business things? Like did you have to write your synopsis and all those kind of things? Because that stuff is so hard for me. I'm truly—I'm an artist through and through. I'm not a businesswoman. It is really, really difficult for me on this side of it now that all the creative stuff is done and I'm answering 25 emails a day and I'm like, "Do just all the little trying to make sure that graphics and the bite-sized pitch things and all the—it's just—it's a lot. It's—hey, just pray for me."

[24:04] Robert Peterpaul: No, I love that you're—well, you're treading paint water and I need to ask you, you painted this glorious cover, correct? First of all, chef's kiss. It's like so intriguing just to look at. Like from the second I unwrapped it, I didn't know you painted it at first and then I started reading it and I'm like, "Yes, you painted it." Did you have to rush and kind of sketch it out as you were completing the description of Miles in the book? Like what kind of came first?

[24:30] Bethany Joy Lenz: I was never gonna paint this cover. I don't paint people. I paint abstract pieces of work of art, big canvases. I do—it's—I don't know how to paint literal things, so I just do what—it's more of a feeling experience, like getting in on a canvas and cutting things or scraping or, you know, the water and the brush and it's just a physical process. So that was not part of my plan. My editor Sean Manning suggested, "Hey, you paint. Why don't you paint the cover? Paint a portrait of Miles?" I was like, "But I found that I actually did have time because I needed breaks from writing."

[25:17] Bethany Joy Lenz: A lot of things online, a lot of tutorials and things. And I just started messing around with the oils and kind of I sketched it out on a canvas of something that my daughter had painted swirls on, these blue swirls. And I just went upstairs, we have a little room of canvases that are like junk canvases. So I started just practicing on that. But it turned out to just become a painting and I kept whittling away at it until I felt like, okay, I'm ready to turn it in. It's still not, I mean, I'm not an art, I'm not trained with this. So I don't know how like a real artist would view it. But I do feel like at least it conveys the tone of the story and like a sense of who Miles is, which I guess is all you look for in art is like to get an emotional reaction from it, whether it's like technically great or not. So anyway, yeah, it was exciting, exciting to get that opportunity.

[26:13] Robert Peterpaul: Well, Joy, you are a real artist. I know what you're saying. I know what you're trying to say there. But I do just want to say that. And it totally achieved it because I thought having read the back cover, it was probably the killer or something. And then as I'm reading the book, we find out. I mean, there's a moment in the book where they talk about the painting and someone maybe thinks it is the killer and that kind of thing. So you achieve this feeling on my end. And I don't know, I imagine you with this. And then of course, the writing process, really having to embrace solidarity. And when I look at what I kind of have read about your childhood and that loneliness and finding solace and creativity, I think of like Robin Williams, who had a similar upbringing. Wow. Do you think you had to make peace with loneliness in order to do something like this, to go into your room and write?

[27:03] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, I think loneliness becomes a blessing and a curse. For me, I can't speak for anyone else. But yeah, when I was young, there was a lot of pain around being an only child and not just an only child, but in a home where there was as much as my parents loved me, there was still a tempest in our living room all the time with them, you know, dealing with their own stuff. And I did feel very unseen and misunderstood. And a lot of those things, because obviously, I wasn't diagnosed back then with ADHD. And maybe a mild autism, I do wonder sometimes. Sorry, I'm getting off track.

[27:43] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, you're good. I also have ADHD. So I'm off track already, too.

[27:48] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. But the loneliness was harder when I was a kid. And then I think as I got old, I think because I think as I got old, I think because of that isolation, I developed these kind of worlds as maybe a trauma response. I developed these worlds in my mind and my heart that I could go into and just imagine and create stories. And then becoming an actor, I was like, wow, somebody's going to pay me to do this? I do this in my sleep. Yeah, of course I can create worlds. And I've always been a writer. So I was writing all that time as well between journaling and essays and scripts and pilots and musicals and just anything I could poetry, whatever. And so then the loneliness as I began to write more in my later years in life, I would say, well, anything past 25, probably, I really began to crave it.

And it was like this. It's like your other it's like your lover that you just want to go and like, close the door and hide away this creation and this thing that you're building. And so then I really love it. And especially then as a mom, as a single mom, then it doesn't always feel like loneliness. It feels like beautiful solace, like the solitude is so comforting because she goes to bed and then I get time to myself or she goes to her friends and I get time to myself. It's great. So I don't know. It's like a nourishment question. It's like it's like it does. And yeah, I think like in so many things in life, right, there's a duality. And I was not an only child, but I had a similar experience in just locking away in my bedroom and then someone would open the door and like the stuffed animals are lined up for my whatever one man show, whatever it is, you know, totally so many embarrassing things.

[29:41] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. But, you know, you mentioned you've always been the one seeing everything. And then, of course, on One Tree Hill, you're you're an actor. So you're not I know you did more than that as well, but you're not necessarily the architect. And I wonder, as like the architect of the story with writing in particular, do you ever get caught up in perfectionism still? Like, do you do you second guess yourself? Do you have all your eyes are opening? So I was like, is that a yes?

[30:07] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, I wasn't. I would have kept this book another six months and or a year and just kept going away on it and doing all the tweaks. And yeah, I mean, at some point you get who just said this to me. At some point you get to the place where you're not improving it. You're just changing it. And you have to know the difference. Like you have to know when to stop and be like neither change is like this. This change I'm making doesn't upgrade it at all. It's just different. So, yeah, I just had to let go at some point. But yes, I'm absolutely a perfectionist.

[30:46] Robert Peterpaul: Are you? I like to say I'm a recovering perfectionist, recovering people pleaser. But like it always kind of lives in you. And I think it's I don't know anything at all, but I think it's about learning to embrace that and find ways to make it like your superpower versus letting it inhibit you.

[31:02] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, I agree. Because the ability to see how something can be better and how something can even be its best is really valuable for an artist. So I don't want to lose that. And often my bar for what I think is excellent can be annoying for people around me or exhausting or something. And so then you have to learn, OK, where's the line between when is it like, OK, to just let something be all right? And when must you when must you make it the best that it can be? And I get hung up on feeling that. For maximum effectiveness, maximum emotional effectiveness for the receiver of the art, the audience, it's got to be the best that it can be, because otherwise they're not going to feel that punch that they need to feel.

But again, not every single thing has to be. The best. I know it's like a self-tape, the self-tape spiral. I mean, you probably don't have to do that as much as I do, but it's funny looking at it, but that's a whole other rabbit hole. I'm looking at my pop up backdrop. I'm like, stay, stay. Why do they always fall over?

[32:20] Bethany Joy Lenz: I know it's crazy. There's such a strong link, I think, between Cora and you in the sense of something you've been touching on as well, which is community. And Cora, you so brilliantly made her an outsider and that she's from America and she wants a place to belong. I think community just is key in life and the people we surround ourselves with kind of actually can change our narratives. And so with all that in mind and whatever you're comfortable sharing, I wonder how you now approach entering new groups and communities because you've done so much in that sense.

[32:51] Bethany Joy Lenz: It's another big dog in the house here. The dog's like, I am her community. I'm the only one. Especially for people in trauma recovery, dogs are amazing.

[33:10] Robert Peterpaul: So yeah, how do I approach community now?

[33:13] Bethany Joy Lenz: It's harder. I mean, I don't want to go through my life feeling closed off or feeling guarded and suspicious, but I've had my ass kicked enough to know that that is out there lurking and not everyone has the best of intentions. And some people are incredibly convincing at making you think that they do. It's a slower process for me now. So when I meet a new person, the part of me that when I was young, if there was something about them that enamored me or that I was enamored with, I'm not sure if I know how to use that right, but whether as a friend or a romantic interest or somebody I wanted to work with or whatever, I would get this sort of limerent excitement like, oh, this is it. This is going to be the most amazing friendship ever.

And like, we're the best friends and like, oh, this is going to be the best relationship ever. And I think I went to a side tangent. I went to a screening of The Narcissist Playbook last night, which is a fantastic film, if you haven't seen it, from The Vow and Evan Rachel Wood and Dr. Romney, and they just do this incredible expose on narcissism. But he said during the talk back last night, when you feel those feelings of excitement, don't trust it about a new person, like don't trust it. That's when something's off. You're like either with you or the person, but there's something in you that is like attaching a sense of value to that person. And so for me, and I agree for me, so I slow down a lot.

I get to know new people and it's great, but I also am just cautious. And community is small for me. I've tried doing it the broad way where I just make lots of friends and I'm friends with everybody. Not the Broadway. Yeah, the broad way of doing things. I just get my ass handed to me, man. It's just too much when you let too many people in too soon. Not everyone has a seat at the table or should have a seat at the table. And it's okay to just leave seats empty until there's a person to come fill it that has earned your trust.

[35:49] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, and we shouldn't feel bad about that. I think that's what's hard for me is you want everyone to be your friend and it's like, oh my gosh, Dolly Parton, everyone loves her. It'd be so nice to live that way. But you have to live the way that's best for you. And you're in such a unique circumstance because you also have this other side of community, which is your fan base, which seems very lovely. I mean, I have to shout out at Joyful Drama Queen submitted a question for you, which was similar in that she was wondering in the same regard as what I just asked you how you find interacting with your fans on a daily basis now that you have shared all this about what you've went through. Do you feel like it's easier for you to kind of just go about and?

[36:30] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, yeah, it's lovely. What a freedom to be able to just have anything that I once was maybe trying to just not talk too much about because it felt embarrassing to now just be out. It's like, I don't know, when you air all your own dirty laundry, it's kind of great because nobody can hold anything over you. And there are so many people who have been through similar experiences, which was my hope that those people would read this book, would read Dinner for Vampires and whether they were in a group abusive format or a narcissistic relationship or manipulative family dynamic or work dynamic, that they would recognize that pain and feel seen. And so I still get messages every day from people who have gone through things like that.

And it's beautiful. It feels really, really lovely to be in a community in that way where there's not a lot of super personal, intimate access, but there is a level of access of an area that I at least have some real knowledge and kind of like authority in to be able to talk about because I've been there.

[37:39] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah, the humanness. You know, it's so funny and I felt weird opening the interview this way, but I did want to open it with a Miles question, which was whose life did you add value to today? Because I thought it was a beautiful question. I'm like, wait, but this guy seems.

[37:55] Robert Peterpaul: But like you could probably never fathom that you're adding value to people's lives every day, whether they're watching One Tree Hill or reading your books.

[38:02] Bethany Joy Lenz: I would say that I think the trick to that is you really shouldn't be thinking about it. What does it do for you to sit around and think about whose life am I adding value to? I would much rather think about who is adding value to my life. I would like to think about the people that I'm grateful for, not how can I perform to make someone else's life better. Who did I make happy today? I'm getting my value off of thinking about how much or little I helped someone else. It sits wrong with me. It feels like the question should be the other way around.

[38:46] Robert Peterpaul: Well, that's very smart of you to write it for him in the book. And it's funny because when we do finally meet him, you write on the same page about, I think, muting your instincts and then unlearning to do that. And Cora, which we've kind of been dancing around, is essentially love bombed in the beginning, you know, prompting her to feel this connection and then question it. So many of us, I think, do feel love bombing, whether it's from like a new friend or love interest or whoever. What have you learned over while, I guess, in the process of writing this book and your other book about tuning into those spidey senses and kind of like retrusting your instincts?

[39:20] Bethany Joy Lenz: I love my spidey sense. I used to it used to really unnerve me because I didn't trust my own instincts. And so when I would feel something, it sent me into a bit of a spiral because I was like, I don't know what decision to make. Do I trust my instincts or do I trust what everyone else is telling me or the thing that I feel on the surface, which is that everything's OK? And now I have my spidey sense. The second I feel it, I back off. I watch. I listen. You always pay attention to what people do and not what they say. And I have saved myself worlds of heartache because I started just listening to my spidey sense. And it's only been recently within the last five years.

[40:06] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Well, I mean, another musical. Sorry. We are the Broadway Podcast Network. So I keep like diving into I will. Believe me, there is a song title from a Broadway song title for every literal every sentence in the planet. So you just throw something. Thank you, Joy.

[40:19] Bethany Joy Lenz: Thank you so much, Joy. Hey, let's do it. Wait, first of all, when are we going to get you on Broadway? Is that something still on your vision board?

[40:24] Bethany Joy Lenz: I want to do it. I want to do Persephone in Hadestown. I want to do a heart of stone six. Catherine of Aragon. And I wanted to. Oh, God, there's so many great shows. I wish Ragtime was going to stay on because mother is such a good part. I've I've been I'm training and I can do it. But I also have I'm a single mom. I'm one person and I have a beautiful daughter who is in who's thriving in our town with her friends and school. And so I think there will be a day probably when she goes off to college, when things in my life shift and I have more flexibility. But she's also an actress and a singer and super talented. She's going to be way better than I am. So we'll just do it together. I don't know.

[41:09] Robert Peterpaul: Hey, yeah. What's a what's a mother daughter show? We can definitely find one of those or write a new one for the both of you.

[41:14] Bethany Joy Lenz: I love that. Yeah, this is so silly. But I guess when we finished One Tree Hill, I did have a thought. I was like, what if there was like a Titanic version of One Tree Hill where Gavin DeGraw like never watched the show and then he's watching it? And then we have like a silly, fun, like heartfelt night out. And I don't know. Do you think One Tree Hill?

[41:34] Robert Peterpaul: Why the hell not? Why the hell not?

[41:37] Bethany Joy Lenz: There's a guy named Jordan Ross, not the actor from The Chosen, but who is also the son. Sorry, the grandson of Coach Whitey, by the way. Random. Miss him. I know. I just saw Barry this weekend. But the the other guy, Jordan Ross in L.A., I think, does these cabarets where he takes shows like he'll do Dawson's Creek and he did One Tree Hill. And he like musicalizes them and has and it's like a dinner theater night with I've seen a couple of them. They're kind of great. It's really fun.

[42:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we need more of in this world. I think fun. And then, of course, like what I admire so much about this book is that it sort of defines what I try to highlight and learn about on The Art of Kindness, which is like using your art and your narratives to entertain people, but also give them a great message. And you do such a great job at not preaching, but sort of like on so many levels speaking to, you know, female empowerment in older women, younger women. And then, you know, there's the love bombing aspect. There's trusting your instinct. I mean, there's so much in here for everybody to take in. And what am I? Why am I? Oh, I'm just saying I want to thank you for this. But then also, like if this becomes a movie or a limited series, would you play Cora? Because I'm like picturing you.

[43:07] Bethany Joy Lenz: I would love to. I mean, I also think like Kirsten Dunst and Rachel McAdams can do no wrong. I love Haley Bennett. She's probably too young, though. But yeah, there are so many wonderful actresses that could could also do this that would have a bigger box office pull. But if I mean, if for some reason they were willing, of course they would. Yes, I know her inside and out. I would love to play Cora.

[43:13] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love that. And kind of like it's selling these important messages like you did is such an act of kindness. And I mean, was there like a North Star message as you were writing this that you kept going back to?

[43:24] Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. Although I feel like if I tell it to you, it's going to give away the ending.

[43:28] Robert Peterpaul: Don't tell it to me, Joy. Don't tell it to me or I'll take my headphones out and come back. I do want to say I gave your book my highest honor, which is that I gave it my Anne Hathaway Stratford upon Avon bookmark.

[43:42] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, my gosh. Sorry. Anyway, thank you. Keep that in. Thank you for this book. I can't wait to finish it. Before you go, I have a little surprise game called the compliment game where I got a compliment from someone in your life. A loving statement. I'm going to read it to you and then you have to try and guess who said it.

[44:00] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, my gosh. OK. OK. And I promise. Wait, let me see. I have a soundboard here. I can't believe I'm going to play this, but this is like a person, like an actual person in my life. Not like a. This is not AI. This is someone, you know. Oh, OK. But that I had access to and not like hopefully a weird way. Everyone's beautiful in their own way. It's the compliment game on me.

[44:24] Robert Peterpaul: OK. It's the compliment. Compliment game. Yay for GarageBand. OK. So sorry about that. I'm going to read you your statement. You can ask me yes or no questions. We'll say you get three guesses because people freak out if there's no rules, but there's no rules. And I will read it to you. It's really sweet. OK. OK. Joy has an unbelievable tone in her singing voice that feels as grounded as she is as a person. Her soul and spirit instinctually seek what is good and moral and right. And wherever her journey takes her, she's always trending in that direction.

[45:06] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, my gosh. I want to cry. Was it was that Tyler Hilton?

[45:13] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. How did you pull that out?

[45:18] Bethany Joy Lenz: Because because you said tone and he's always he's always commenting on the tone of my voice. Whenever we get together, he'll always stop and be like, oh, God, your tone, Joy.

[45:27] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, my God. Yes. I had a silly hint here. I made up, but you didn't even need it. That was very impressive. I'm sure so many people feel that way.

[45:37] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, that's so beautiful. No, I wouldn't have known if it hadn't been for that word. Truly that I mean, that that was just so lovely. Gosh, I love you, Tyler. I love you, buddy.

[45:47] Robert Peterpaul: Tyler, I know. Unhinged on screen in One Tree Hill, but like a sweetheart, I guess.

[45:52] Bethany Joy Lenz: He's wonderful. He's such a brilliant musician and such a deeply kind hearted, generous person. Like, I mean, I just he's one of those people that you just wish like everybody in the world could know. You know what I mean?

[46:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Such a good dude. Grateful for those people. Grateful for you. And I guess just on the One Tree Hill beat. If Cora painted Haley, what would what would that look like?

[46:16] Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, my gosh. OK, is Haley dead or is she painting her for some reason?

[46:21] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, I'm hoping Haley comes back one day in some form, but I guess she's dead for now.

[46:26] Bethany Joy Lenz: I mean, I don't know. OK, Cora's painting Haley. I mean, I guess she's painting her sort of. Wearing all the hats that she wears. Yeah, I would say she's she's painting, you know, she's a mother, teacher, musician, wife, friend. She was Haley was the sort of moral center of the show. I think I think everyone agrees on that. There's this sort of gravitational pull around Haley's groundedness. And in the seasons when she wasn't grounded, there was it felt a little wobbly. I thought, yeah, maybe that's just me.

[47:04] Robert Peterpaul: I agree.

[47:06] Bethany Joy Lenz: But so, yeah, and I think often people who live in that space aren't seen as much because they are managing everyone else's drama and everybody else's stuff. And so I think and that's that's what Cora's mission is here is to make unseen women seen. So I would say in all those little parts of Haley that didn't get really noticed the part of her that's like the quirkiness and the parts that are the pain, the pains and the intimacies and all the little things that maybe not many people notice. Those are things I think Cora would have painted about her.

[47:46] Robert Peterpaul: That's beautiful. Your descriptions of I mean, just then right now, but of the paintings that you make are so brilliant, like the way I don't I don't know. But I was there was one in particular I was reading where you were describing how this woman was painted and then like the symbolism of it. Just everyone, please read this book. It's so smart and fun. And I'm so enjoying it. I literally would not say that if I didn't mean it.

[48:10] Bethany Joy Lenz: I usually enjoy with a kindness tip. But as you're mentioning unseen women, I wonder if you more so have. I mean, tip sounds trivial, but advice or thoughts on anybody out there who's not feeling seen on how they can move toward the sun, the sunshine and feel seen.

[48:34] Bethany Joy Lenz: Serve. Find ways to serve. Something really beautiful happens when we move from I say we don't mean to generalize, but I know for myself that when I have been in moments of feeling unseen and maybe truly am unseen in those moments, stepping outside of the sort of spiral of self-awareness that can turn into self-pity that can then turn into depression. If I can sidestep that by getting out of it and finding some place to help someone to serve someone to call and try and make them feel seen. There is some beautiful exchange that happens and it really, really does make a difference. And I've noticed that I start to get and feel seen more when I make that a regular practice.

[49:34] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I think that's so true. And I was tempted to ask you for a parenting tip, but I think that's also a good one. So thank you for that.

[49:41] Bethany Joy Lenz: Help out around the house.

[49:43] Robert Peterpaul: Help out.

[49:45] Bethany Joy Lenz: For the kid. That's the kid's tip. Sorry.

[49:49] Robert Peterpaul: No, I will play that for the kid as soon as she pops out. But don't recount it in a miles away. Don't ask yourself who you did something for in that way. But I think that's wonderful. And like a floating, what was it? Sunlit leaf. I mean, I have highlighted so much in this book that you've written. Your prose is beautiful. This time has been so lovely. And I just think this is cheesy, but I'm going to say it. Joy is such a great name for you because you brought me a lot of joy. So thanks.

[50:15] Bethany Joy Lenz: Thank you so much. I really love talking with you. Thanks.

[50:19] Robert Peterpaul: Thanks.

[50:21] Robert Peterpaul: Until next time, remember, everything is going to be A-OK.