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[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the sky a better place to be.

[0:21] Robert Peterpaul: I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:36] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, Party Peeps, and happy June! Happy Pride! Happy Tony's month, and happy birthday to me. June is filled with many milestones, and I hope you feel a sense of celebration in the air. Celebrate good sounds, I can feel it. Celebrating in the air tonight. Okay, I've had a lot of sugar today. Actually, no, I really haven't. Oh, no excuse for being hyper.

[1:02] Robert Peterpaul: I am thrilled to kick off Pride Month here on the Art of Kindness Podcast with someone who you know what? Yeah, I feel like is a new friend of mine. I just felt such amazing energy from this guest. I mean, you know who it is. You read the episode title, so it's not a secret. I don't know why I'm pretending like it is. Today's guest is the wonderful Javier Muñoz.

[1:17] Robert Peterpaul: Javier Muñoz is an actor and activist whose impressive body of work spans theater, film, and television. He is best known for starring in and co-creating the role of Alexander Hamilton in the hit musical Hamilton on Broadway's for two years after Lin-Manuel Miranda departed the show, and was his alternate prior to that. He got his big break starring in In the Heights on Broadway's, also created by Miranda, of course.

[1:47] Robert Peterpaul: On-screen, Javier starred in the dark comedy Monuments, the indie feature LOVE RECONSIDERED, and he also stars in THREE MONTHS on Paramount Plus. Other TV credits include a recurring role on Shadowhunters, Blindspot, and Full Frontal with Samantha Bee. He also lends his lovely vocal talents to a lead character in the Disney Jr. animated series, Eureka! Speaking of Happy's voice, we are here today to discuss his latest project, a musical concept album called My Heart Says Go.

[2:11] Robert Peterpaul: My Heart Says Go follows the powerful story of a first-generation college student, Indigo, who, in hopes of becoming a singer-songwriter, defies his father, played by Javier, and drops out of medical school. This new pop musical is about listening to your heart, overcoming obstacles, and never giving up on those you love.

[3:31] Robert Peterpaul: Javier and I touch on all of this and go down so many incredible corridors of discussion. We talk about the perseverance it takes to follow a dream, the importance of self-acceptance, and of course, I did not throw away my shot for some Hamilton reminiscing. I try to give the people what they want. As always, please stay tuned after the interview for your kindness tip of the week. I'd also really appreciate it if you share our show with some friends, or if you're feeling really generous and kind, please leave a five-star review. Now, without further ado, please enjoy the joyful Javier Muñoz.

[4:19] Javier Muñoz: Hello.

[4:21] Robert Peterpaul: Hi.

[4:21] Javier Muñoz: Sorry it took me a second to get my bearing.

[4:25] Robert Peterpaul: You're totally fine. I never know what to do when people are first coming on. I'm like, should I smile into the camera? Should I look away? Is it too intense if I'm just waiting? Or like turn away and just be like, if there's like a different wig on, I'm like, hi.

[4:38] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, that I'm gonna try that. I'll let you know how that goes.

[4:41] Robert Peterpaul: Awesome. How are you?

[4:45] Javier Muñoz: I'm great. How are you doing?

[4:46] Robert Peterpaul: I'm good. I love this Zen vibe behind you with the candle you got going on. It's very relaxing.

[4:52] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, it's press day, so I'm trying that's the exact energy I'm trying to come at with.

[4:58] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, it's perfect. Well, I hope this is a nice, easy zen process for you. I'm so excited to talk to you. I loved getting to meet you at Fat Ham on the red carpet for a little second there.

[5:08] Javier Muñoz: Yeah.

[5:09] Robert Peterpaul: I was—your kindness just really struck me. You were so nice in the way you really stopped and talked to everybody. You didn't seem like you were looking over anybody's shoulder. Because those things are crazy, you know?

[5:19] Javier Muñoz: They are.

[5:19] Javier Muñoz: And to people's defense, I mean, I get it. It's easy to like get distracted, get pulled, you know, somewhere on those because there's so much happening around you. But I definitely have learned to like be with who I'm with.

[5:35] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. It's hard. And sometimes, you know, you're with someone like your friend Lin-Manuel Miranda, who I talked to and I fully blacked out in front of. But my sound designer was like, that just means you were present, you were experiencing his energy. And I was, oh okay, I guess so. Yes, don't want to listen back to that.

[5:57] Javier Muñoz: Right.

[5:59] Robert Peterpaul: I do want to say that I am a huge fan of not only your work, I feel like you have a giant talent, but then also an even bigger heart. It really seems like you kind of walk through this world with kindness and love, and we have some mutual friends who have said the same about you, that you're just such a lovely soul.

[6:15] Javier Muñoz: So that's so beautiful. Thank you for that.

[6:17] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, so I think you're a great fit to talk about kindness today, as I'm still learning everything about it, and of course, your amazing project. You know, one thing I always start off asking after I kind of accost guests with compliments is how are you at receiving compliments? Because I'm guessing you've gotten a lot over your journey.

[6:34] Javier Muñoz: I had to get used to it. It was actually something that I was extraordinarily uncomfortable with. I would always deflect. I really would immediately deflect because we all have our childhood traumas and things, and certainly from mine, it made me a personality that just never felt comfortable with someone, even if it was like what I was wearing that day. It's just like, no, no, no, no, you look great. You know what I mean? It's like don't compliment me. It's about you, it's about you.

[7:07] Javier Muñoz: But it—I gotta tell you, theater makes you have to sort of just accept the energy from people because it's kindness and exactly you know what we're talking about. It is someone being kind. So just thank you.

[7:24] Robert Peterpaul: I can so relate to that because it does feel awkward on some level. You're like, I'm not being humble if I just smile and say thank you, but then what else am I gonna do? Am I gonna run away at the stage door? You know?

[7:35] Javier Muñoz: Have you done that?

[7:36] Robert Peterpaul: No, so I think it's definitely a learning journey for everybody and every person I've talked to. I think one person said they were really good at it, which I was like, oh well, okay.

[7:44] Javier Muñoz: And Zoom.

[7:45] Robert Peterpaul: That's awesome.

[7:45] Javier Muñoz: No, it is awesome. It is very healthy. You know, I think it's a work in progress for everybody because we do want them, but you know, it's a little weird. So I, you know, I can't wait to get into everything with your new project, My Heart Says Go, which I think certainly fits the theme of the podcast, The Art of Kindness.

[8:02] Robert Peterpaul: So, Javier, to unlock the door of today's conversation as someone who I see tweeting about kindness a lot and kind of talking about those themes, what is your definition of kindness?

[8:14] Javier Muñoz: Ooh, wow, that is a tough question.

[8:18] Robert Peterpaul: I know it's a big one.

[8:19] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, because I was trying to ask it on the red carpet, and people were like, that's nope, that's too much.

[8:26] Javier Muñoz: On the spot with the red carpet pace of it. That's tough.

[8:29] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, I'm like, tell me a life story. What's the meaning like? Start at the beginning. I think, gosh, that's a really tough question because I don't think it is such a large concept. I don't think it's quite simple, right? Because it's not just stemming from you, right? It's almost like kindness is a responsibility because we are not in this life alone.

[8:58] Javier Muñoz: And so everything we do affects someone else. I have learned the hard way that the times when I'm angry, the times when I'm not my best version of myself, the times when I am stressed or anxious, I have learned more from those moments in terms of how deeply I can affect someone than I've paid attention to in terms of my kindness. But it's allowed me to then look at kindness, look at love, look at positivity, look at a compliment, like we were just talking about, and those kinds of gestures in a different way, and understand that the same way I can contaminate the air with anger and frustration and anxiety, I can also contaminate the air with kindness and love and joy.

[9:51] Javier Muñoz: And so I think kindness is a—to me, it's a responsibility and a choice every day, everywhere you are, right? When you're stuck on the train and it's hot and it's crowded and something happens, it's not just about you, right? It is literally about everybody in that train car feels exactly the same way. We just want to get to where we're going and out of this train car. So, like breathe and be kind, yeah, right? It's like those, yeah. So that's I think that's my definition.

[10:22] Robert Peterpaul: That's a very brilliant and unique answer. Nobody's defined it that way, and I think that's very perceptive and cool because I love how you phrase contaminating the air, because even if you're not directly angry at somebody and directing that negative vibration at them, if you're sitting there frustrated that your internet's not working or whatever it is, it does affect the people around you. So it's like you got to pay attention to that. And maybe that's a time where you should be kind to yourself when you're feeling that way.

[10:48] Javier Muñoz: And that's where the cyclical thing comes in of showing yourself love. You know, there's a lot of themes within this new project we're going to get into about vulnerability and just slapping a smile on and not showing the world how you really feel. So it's kind of a fine dance because it is brave to be vulnerable and say, hey, I'm having a bad day. This sucks. But it should be a bridge, not a disconnection with people.

[11:13] Robert Peterpaul: I love that on that train, you know. Maybe make a friend on the train and you can bond over the fact crazier things have happened, you know.

[11:22] Javier Muñoz: Yeah, yeah. That's that is that you're totally right. There's something really unexpected and positive could come out of that.

[11:28] Robert Peterpaul: So, you know, I guess before we get there, I do love to give listeners a little bit of context. When you were growing up in Brooklyn, was kindness something you feel like you experienced a lot? Was it something you feel like you learned growing up, or do you think now looking back it's something that you kind of understand and try to practice a little bit more?

[11:45] Javier Muñoz: I think a bit of both. I think certainly from—that's a—I want to be very responsible and delicate with my answer here because wherever you want to go. There's the context of the neighborhood I grew up in, which was, you know, I grew up in the projects of East New York, Brooklyn. It had the highest crime rate in all of New York City when I was growing up there in the 80s, so it was a very violent, dangerous neighborhood. It was incredibly aggressive, you know. So much of my street smarts and my sort of demeanor comes from having to survive in that environment, and it didn't lend itself to kindness, right?

[12:28] Javier Muñoz: However, that's not to say it wasn't there, right? There were in the throes of some violent or aggressive event happening to you or near you, the kindness was, is my neighbor in danger? Do I, you know, or am I gonna help, you know, this kid that's next to me get to safety, right? There's a kindness in there in that survival mode where you're you because you're not alone in these situations and these, and and and I was never alone in this in that neighborhood. I was with my friends, and it would, you know, in those moments of fight or flight, the kindness showed through friendship, showed through neighborly, you know, action. Um, but certainly at home, I would say that my my parents, separate from my upbringing and my my relationship with them, which is incredibly strained and difficult, they were externally and socially and and as an example kind to others.

And um, and there that's that notion was definitely uh a very religious family, very conservative family, and that that I that concept of walking into a neighbor's home and the kind of you know politeness and kindness and respect you show, even just something as simple as holding the door open for someone when I see like someone struggling with a stroller or you know, struggling with a door, a package or whatever. It's like the thought, it's not even a thought, it's an impulse. It's just like, of course I'm gonna go help. Like that's and that's very much from my upbringing. So I think kindness comes in many forms, and I I I don't I don't always think it necessarily has to be gentle. I think kindness can be, you know, in those moments growing up in the neighborhood, of if if something was some some fight was going on or something, you know, the the impulse to grab my friend and run into a building is an aggressive action, but it's kindness.

It's like we gotta get out of here. Come on. You know, this is cool, you know. Um, so you know, it doesn't it it it can have so many forms, but I think it was something that no matter what was happening at home or outside of my neighborhood, it was like an under, it was right under, it was simmering under everything. You know, that kind of human kindness was was still present.

[14:40] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, and it's so present in all the work you do, and I really appreciate you opening up and sharing that because I think it it takes vulnerability to share your story, and we can certainly discuss anything you want to discuss or anything you don't want to discuss, you know, just leave the zoom. But I think it seems like you have a very well-rounded, beautiful experience of kindness because, like you mentioned, there is that one end of the niceties and the politeness that is kind. Acts of kindness are wonderful, but if it's not rooted in the genuine kindness of wanting to connect with others and help others, and like you said, maybe people are one way with out in public and another way at home.

Yes, it's it's weird. It's you know, it's there there's a a disconnection there. So I think that's very important to bring up, you know, moving into I guess your career, I would love to know for you, is there an act of kindness that stands out that somebody did for you as kind of changing your life and getting you on this dream path that you've been on?

[15:36] Javier Muñoz: Oh man, I you know what I mean. There were, and I gotta tell you, I consider myself like one of the luckiest human beings on this planet. I have been the recipient of people's kindness and thoughtfulness and generosity throughout my career. It it's I kind of think you can't, you really can't be an artist without someone impacting you in that way. It's it's and it's more than just survival. You know, it's it's um what we do, what we ask ourselves to do as artists is so vulnerable and so we are so in in our in our hearts all the time and and that's so delicate right. So I I think acts of kindness are really vital in our work.

[16:19] Oh yeah. But like thinking about something specific, man. You know, if you want to narrow it down because I think people will beat me up in the comments hopefully if I don't mention Hamilton, you know, if you if you want to make it maybe specific to that time in your life, which I'm sure was such a whirlwind, but I think that's something people love you for, you know, a couple you know what I oh well thank you. And and if if to to relate it to Hamilton, there's there's a gigantic act of kindness. So I, as you know, had a cancer battle during can during Hamilton and the the cast under the leadership of Leslie Odom Jr. organized uh sending me meals to my doorstep. There was, you know, and and and that was sort of the impact of that wasn't just nutrition.

It came in these bags that uh that that would you know when the next order arrived at my door they would take away the bags from the previous order and um but I kept two I kept two because um as I was healing my mental uh journey through that of healing, I would fill it's I started sitting in a chair and I would use I would use each bag in one hand and I would empty right and I was doing arm curls and like shoulder presses, right? And like little little my versions of exercises that made me feel like I'm healing, I'm getting stronger and better. And I would fill as I as I wanted to challenge myself, I would fill the bags up with socks. Right. To give them socks, were they matching? I mean, I mean, I wasn't really particularly uh I understand it was like whatever was there, and I and and that, but so I bring that up to say that this one gesture from my cast of of love and kindness, really, um, to provide this rippled out and had even and for it wasn't just nutrition, they were helping because of what I needed. That became those bags became this way to heal my mind through the journey and heal while healing my body.

[18:34] So that's beautiful. Um that's a Hamilton-related kindness. I love that. I'm glad that we found that one because I think that is incredible. I mean, and the scientific research shows too that when you do something like that for someone else, it's not why you do it, but you do get it back. You do get that positivity and that kindness back. And I love that it kind of kept going because then you use the bags and it was sort of this wonderful symbol. You know, I I think that's great. I I've had cancer in my family, my my little brother who had a battle, and my mom, and um, just seeing the kind of tokens they kept around and now the things after losing my brother that I keep around that kind of bring me that healing.

It's uh it's interesting. You you brought up the mental journey too, which people don't oh now we're starting to talk about that, but people don't always talk about that. I think chemo and the physical things you're doing, but it's such a mental game that yes, everything is, right. I mean, there's I don't know that there's any challenge in this world that doesn't require many moments to sit down with with your own self and your mind and say, what do what is my my my mental state need? Right. So that I can I can get through this thing, or I can succeed in this thing, or I can survive this thing, or you know, whatever. It's yeah, it's a it, yeah. Our mental wellness needs lots of attention.

[19:48] But usually for me it's a cookie at an audition that didn't go the way I wanted to. But I think this is kind of a perfect segue to talk about your amazing new project, What Does My Heart Say, which is this fantastic concept album that I can't stop listening to, and it really struggles on that journey of listening to your heart and kind of what we were just talking about, that mental journey, it does deal with that with a young artist. You know, first of all, I think it might be obvious, but why did you feel connected to lend your amazing talents to this specifically?

[20:19] Javier Muñoz: I tell you, it was such a beautiful moment. So um, so I this this came in as an offer. And and when when I get a direct offer, I'm by the way. Well, thank you very much. But I I take it extraordinarily seriously. You know, I I think to myself, it's such an honor to receive a direct offer. And it really means that that this team of people absolutely see me in this project, in this role. And so out of respect for for how I think they might must feel, like I really I read the script, I'm I'm go through all the music. I really take my time to to consider the offer. And this came in. I preface that by saying you would think that I, you know, you would I would have given this that equal amount of time, but this is how it happened.

The offer comes the email offer comes in. I am it's a day off. I don't have any auditions, I don't have any self-tapes, we get like 5,000 a day. Um, you know, and I've got no rehearsals, I've got like nothing, nothing pulling me. So I'm laying on the couch, I'm watching a little TV, and the email comes in, and so I I get my my earphones, I pop in. I didn't get the script, I got a demo recording. I pop in the first song in my ears, and I'm listening to Jorge, and I'm listening to, you know, what strikes me immediately is like his cadence and the inner rhymes and the structures of uh the structure of the song, his hit the timber of his voice. And I I literally, I kid you not, you know, I joined the process of in the heights when it was at MTC for two weeks.

And Lynn would send us MP3s of changes in the music or new songs and things. And I at the time I was living with my family in Coney Island. I remember I remember so clearly sitting, I had a desk by my window, and I was sitting at my desk, you know, and I would have my computer open, my earphones on, listening to Lynn singing my ear, and that's how I would learn, you know, prepare to learn the music the next day with lack. And I'm sitting on my laying on my couch here in my apartment and I'm listening to Jorge, and I am just I'm transported. I'm immediately transported to to that specific time. Those two weeks at MTC when I'm first listening to Lynn and we're we're first getting to know each other and what that process was for In the Heights.

I didn't even finish listening to the song. I just felt I could feel how in the heights inspired Jorge, how Lin inspired his writing. And I I said, Yeah, I wrote back immediately. Yes. I was like, this is this is like this transported me. This is literally heights. I have to support this kid. I've got to say yes to this. Like this is not out of nowhere. This is the universe going, Hey, remember in the heights?

[23:08] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[23:08] Javier Muñoz: You're going back up, going to another night.

[23:11] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I mean, the inspiration shines through in the best way. And I think it's kudos to you that you were present enough during the in the heights time and then it reflected enough to kind of equate that that was the same feeling.

[23:24] Javier Muñoz: Yes, I know what this is.

[23:24] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[23:27] Javier Muñoz: That's incredible. You know, there's a lyric that kind of struck me in what does my heart say? I should pull it up. It's well, the first lyric is follow your heart, they say, and then eventually, but what about those who don't get a choice? And it made me think, you know, when you were first beginning to follow your dream, do you remember a time when you felt like giving up or felt doubt? And I mean, do you have any advice to offer looking back on how you persevered?

[23:51] Javier Muñoz: Oh my gosh. You know, I did, I did face that adversity, and I did quit. I quit the business at one point and took a job as a general manager in a new restaurant in Hell's Kitchen.

[24:02] Robert Peterpaul: Wow.

[24:03] Javier Muñoz: And in the heights brought me back. Um, yeah, literally, it was those the the audition for those two weeks at MTC that fell into my lap, and it's a long story how that happened. But I literally came came back. I was still working at the restaurant as a as a GM while I did the two weeks at MTC. And um, and I was only working nights and dinners at that point, so I was like in rehearsal all day and then going to my restaurant all night, still like working on music, you know, on the train on the ride home or whatever.

[24:42] Javier Muñoz: Um, long story short, they were both diagnosed with cancer in the same year. They're still alive, they're still with me, they're healthy and well. But I moved back home so that we could be a unit to support each other, and I quit the business because I wasn't booking anything, and so I took this GM job so I can help support my family and me, etc. And my parents, I invited them to that second presentation of on the final day at MTC, and we get home, Coney Island, and I uh they sit me down in the kitchen, and they just basically tell me you can't quit. Oh, you can't give this up. Like you have this is what you have to do. Like this is this is you, you know, and so I know that that's an example of you know, external support bringing me through a hard time, which not everybody has.

And I certainly have had moments where I haven't had you know, the things that have been my obstacles and my journey, I had to endure and experience and solve on my own. I think I have so much advice to give people, but like any and you know, I think anyone listening, this industry is so incredibly hard and never stops being hard. Even when you feel like you've arrived, it comes with another whole new set of challenges and expectations. And I think as you climb, my certainly my experience, it gets harder. There's more people to answer to, there's more responsibility, there's just more, right? There's more investment in you as you climb in this industry. And so you really have to become responsible for so much more.

And I think the things that have really gotten me through, I have had to cultivate. This is not something that came easy for me. I was complete opposite. I had to cultivate a gentleness with myself that is at a level that is unmatched. Like never in my life. You know, it was it was something that I just I would there was no one who could be harder on myself than me. Oh yeah. And I couldn't have survived the things I've survived in this industry and on my journey if I didn't truly cultivate a kindness towards myself and with myself. I think that's probably the greatest thing I can offer to anyone as advice because in that effort of being kind with yourself, you create space, right? You create a clarity, and that creates room for problem solving for someone's advice that might help you for um whatever it is that you need in the particular challenge that you're facing.

The gentleness with yourself creates space to receive that, or you yourself create that for yourself. Um but I think it is the hardest thing. It is hard. I'll tell you what, it's always very hard. I'm like, let me hide my zoom face right now. I mean, we're always judging ourselves, but if you can come from that place of love versus fear always, then you're right. You're you're gonna be much more open to other people helping you because what we're told where to get our headshots, we're told what classes we have to take, we're told what agent to send or thing, then you know it keeps leveling up and different problems and things arise, but you're not really told that the most important thing is to be kind to yourself and gives you give yourself grace, and don't go down a rabbit hole of doing 40 self-tape takes because you start to think that you look terrible and you're not, you know, it's it's oh yes.

I know I'm triggered because I see my ring light over there. I'm like, nope, not doing that later. Anyway, yeah, I love that. And I actually it was making me really emotional when you were talking about your parents sitting you down and telling you that. What a gift, and I think a beautiful reminder that we should also do that for other people. You know, we should always champion other people's dreams. It can be get very insular, but if you know you have time today, send a text to somebody that you know is hustling towards something and just say, I see you, I appreciate you. I still do it to this day. I still do it to my friends. You know, I I don't let any sort of level of success that my friends have achieved stop that interaction.

I will literally pick up a phone and be like, I just watched this, you're amazing. That was incredible. I know I know how you feel right now, and I'm telling them, you know, like yeah, you're amazing. Yeah, because then people start to assume, oh, they know they're amazing. I don't need to say it, but it's it's always nice. It's always nice to get that love. You know, I'm sure your character in this wasn't necessarily doing that, at least at the start. Uh you played this father figure who's kind of too blinded by the hardships of you know reality to champion a dream. What was it like channeling that?

[29:18] Javier Muñoz: It was a little weird. Um, you know, it's it's definitely not who I am, right? Like the this this the father, the hard work that the father takes on for himself to support his son. That's very like me, right? You know, I put myself through NYU. I worked one full-time job, two part-time jobs. I was, you know, 18 credits a semester. I was always in rehearsal, you know, like that. That and I you could only do that in your 20s. I would probably die if I tried to do that now. But like, you know, but like so that aspect of him, I totally relate to you. I told you know, that's that's very easy to to connect with. But he does come from this place of I know it's love, right? He just wants his son to succeed and exceed any expectations.

And you know, he just wants his son to be so to have everything he didn't have. And that's coming from a place of love, but he's blinded by the by by, like you said, the realities of life and and the challenges that he's faced, that he doesn't see his son, or he doesn't see the the human being that his son is. He just sees his kid, he's got he's got to do this for his kid, and his kid has got to do that, this thing, this trajectory, med school. That's it, that's what we're doing. Go team, you know, and he he is very blinded by fear, by the fear that his son will have as hard a life as he's had. Um, and that he does he just doesn't see the human being that his son is until you know the journey he's got to take through the show, yeah.

But uh, but yeah, he's he's uh he was tricky to to play because I I I definitely have the opposite experience with my parents, where um, you know, uh I I was indigo, I was the son saying, no, this is what I want to do with my life. They were going, hell no, no way. What are you kidding? Oh yeah, you know, so it's very relatable, unfortunately. But I had to really put myself in their shoes and and and and and find that parental thing of really what it comes down to is I want to protect my child. I want I want it, I just want my child to have the best life that he can have. And and really that's where the father's coming from, but it's not it's not gentle, you know, it's not it's not. He's he's really he's so terrified.

Yeah, so it's coming out of fear, it's coming right out of a lot of fear. Because he has the love, he has the batteries to use a weird analogy, but they're not for the right flashlight. You know what I mean? Very much. Yes, exactly. Putting him in the wrong puzzle piece, you know, looking at that, and then I guess thinking about too with your parents, did that tap into helping you sort of, and maybe you're just like this as a person in general, you seem to be very open, but having conversations with people that have a totally different view than us. It's necessary. It's very tough to do. Did this kind of teach you anything in that front?

[32:10] Javier Muñoz: Yes, very much so. And and and um I am very uh that's a great compliment you just said. I seem very open. Well, you seem so open on social media, like your posts are always very you don't seem to be like there's another song in the show we mentioned about smiling. You don't always seem to be putting on that fake facade, which I really appreciate. Yes, that that's very important to me. Um, but I I uh and thank you for that. And and and I do have that kind of openness about a lot of things, you know, in life. But certainly to be able to sit down and engage with someone who has an opposite opinion of me or um just thinks differently than I do. I've not always been great at that. That is not that was not a skill I had.

Um I I and I I it wasn't until I mean the last five, six years, you know, with with the climate we've been living under and the context we've all been experiencing, and in the world, let alone our country, it's forced me to have to sit and really learn to listen. Really learn to listen and like discover, like, wow, you know what, how you are you? You're not very good at that. Uh I think you're gonna have to really practice this. I don't think anybody's good at listening in this world where we all have platforms, we're all always shouting. Listening has become sort of an undervalued skill, but as artists, it's so important, right? You're in a scene, you have to listen to your scene partner. So tapping into that and then getting to the bottom of it, we can realize that most of us aren't that different at the core.

There it is, people will raise differently, and there's things you gotta work through, you know. There was awesome commercial, I think. Shout out to not a sponsor of this podcast. But if you want to be maybe Budweiser, one of the big beer companies did a commercial a while ago where they had all these people of different beliefs come into a room and share a beer. I think it was Heinrich. I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. You're totally right. We should do that. Like that, I mean, it just shows you that it, you know, there's a lot more we have in common. Um, but anyway, getting back on track. Let me take up my beer right now. You know, besides the gorgeousness of the music and the storytelling, which by the way, kudos to you for being able to make the father figure a little bit more complex and not just the quote unquote villain with just your voice, which is very impressive.

I really love learning about the accessibility of the show. That kind of blows me away. So looking at that, if you want to speak to that at all, how do you kind of envision the future of the arts in your dream world in regards to making everything more accessible? I mean, are there things that this project has done that you would like to see done across the board?

[34:39] Javier Muñoz: Oh my gosh, yes. You know, that I think that that, you know, I we talked about what what drew me to the to the to say yes, but once I got involved, that really became the most exciting aspect of this. Um, so Matt Hawkins, a professor at Notre Dame. Um, and he created what's called the new works lab. And that's that's where he and Jorge connected and and this piece is born from. And pandemic hit. Lockdown happens. Matt and Jorge want to continue developing this work and are, you know, like all of us, we're just we were just pivoting and trying to be like how do I stay creative in the context of like my four walls, you know? What is this? How do I get toilet paper? Yeah, you know, so like they they really I think it's just beautiful that out of that context of that craziness we all live through, they found this way to make theater even more accessible.

And so when you think about regional theaters, community centers, theaters anywhere, the cost of licensing the rights to anything are astronomical, right? So you you're fundraising as as a let's say you're a community center somewhere, you're fundraising for a million things as it is. Now you have to fundraise just to pay the licensing fee to do MAME, you know what I mean? Like whatever it is, and and and and the the cost is so great that then of course you're limiting you're limited to what you can offer your community. So here we have this fantastically written piece, beautifully composed, incredibly beautiful story, Broadway's names across the board singing on it, so it immediately connects the piece to New York, to Broadway's, to the to that energy, right?

So some kid somewhere in in this country or anywhere who has dreams of going to New York, you know, stumbles across this recording, and it's another connection, right? And it because it's it's it could just be recorded by students at Notre Dame, right? But it's not. He he very wisely and and as a business move, attaches it to Broadway's names, so it has that energy percolating and kindling right under it.

[36:56] Javier Muñoz: And the cost to produce this anywhere is gonna be so affordable. So any entity anywhere can afford to take this show, do their own production, put their own spin on it, their own concept with it. It's never had a production. So you know, or it has at Notre Dame. I'm incorrect with that. But it's not had a Broadway's musical debut, right? It's got nothing weighing down to conceptually. And it's affordable. And so that's really what they've done. And I would, I just think on top of that, we now know Jorge. We now know his music. You know, he's got a million streams and his own, his own, you know, thing going on on YouTube. But we now as an industry know who he is. We need more of that. Opportunities for young musical theater writers who just wanna get their foot in some crack of a door. This is a way to do it, right? So it's working on all fronts to really make so much of our industry accessible and viable and real for young artists coming up.

[38:04] Robert Peterpaul: I love that. And that's what I've loved about TikTok and even the surge of musical theater people on there, because it's like, why do we have these walls? Why do people have to go through this process where they go to NYU and get the, you know what I mean? Like it's so silly at the end of the day, because then you're interviewing amazing people on the red carpet like you, but also wonderful composers who are saying, I don't know, I've I never studied, it just comes to me. It's like some people just have that and we gotta get them out there. So I'm very happy in that regard. And in a double way, you know, My Heart Says Go is walking the walk because they do kind of urge people to find something they believe in and then see it through.

There's a message in one of the songs that's very beautiful about that. And then of course they're doing that with the accessibility. In regards to you and your following, what's something you believe in that you try to incorporate in every project or try and come across, you know, as you're choosing things? I don't know if you're cognizant of that.

[38:59] Javier Muñoz: No, I very much so. I made this decision back in high school. Like, you know, when I was just thinking dreaming of doing this as a career, I said to myself, the thing that is most important to me is I want to put, I want my characters that I play and the stories that I tell to portray all aspects of our lives. I don't want to just tell the happy ending story. I want to show the complicated person. And I want to show their light and I want to show their dark, and I want to help audiences see all of it so that perhaps the audience member that night or that afternoon watching and experiencing some storytelling I'm giving and performing, they walk away feeling that much just a tiny bit more humane about themselves.

Right. Maybe this asks that audience member to examine something about themselves and just look at it and maybe accept it. That would be the ultimate thing. It's like they have some level of it, yeah, some level of acceptance that they experience, but at least they walk away looking at it, thinking about it, that part of themselves, this character on that stage, that journey, you know, I'm kind of like that. That kind of feels like me. And some people will run from that, but some won't. And that's my hope is that every time, especially some of them like Hamilton, I really loved digging into his faults, the things he got wrong, you know, because then it's exactly that point. It's hoping that the audience has the experience of, you know, we don't get everything right, and nothing about each of us is perfect, but we can love all of it. There's room for all of it, right? And in ourselves, there's room for our light and our dark. And if we can accept that, how powerful and empowering that can be.

[40:55] Robert Peterpaul: So yeah, so that's that. That is something that I mean, and how much happier would we be too? First of all, it's more interesting to watch a character that's messy because we're all messy in real life, and it is relatable, like you're saying. And it's that's certainly probably why you stood on your own during the explosion of Hamilton. People could look to you as a different Hamilton who is equally incredible to watch, because you were bringing something different to the table, your own perspective. And I think that's really an admirable and wonderful one. And it certainly leads into when the way this shakes out, this episode will probably be coming out during Pride Month. Happy Pride, everybody.

You know, you've made such an impact on the LGBTQ plus community. And in regards to this musical and you know, the struggle like we were just talking about, people have in accepting even the tiniest weird part about themselves. This is another kind of big question, but just thinking about this would be wonderful. What's your, I know you have a lot of advice. What's your advice for those listening that are working toward self-acceptance?

[42:00] Javier Muñoz: Uh well, you know what? First of all, I just, I think of this in the same way as I think of any personal journey. And you know, it is always the thing that I constantly say. It is you gotta be gentle with yourself in the process. I really, I think that is a fundamental place to begin, no matter what you're talking about. But if you are talking about being an LGBTQ plus person and you're talking about finding your community, your place, your purpose, your worth, your beauty, your calling, your endurance or persistence to keep going, you know, whatever it is, I think the first place to start is just be able to look in the mirror and just be kind. Let that inner voice be kind to you. There's enough out there that's going to want to silence you or make you disappear or just have you, you know, vanish into the background.

Why feed it? Don't feed that. We're all, we all face that every day to some degrees. So when you're with you, let that be so gentle and so loving and so kind to you and start there. I think that is the best advice I can give, because there's plenty of energy out there that's counter, you know, wants to make us LGBTQ plus folks feel like we don't deserve joy and love and equality, but we do. Of course. And I think there's this thing in life where the energy you're putting out is what kind of what you get back, and across communities, I mean, how many people do we know? How many, I'm pointing at myself, how many people of us, how many people am I? I don't, that didn't even make sense. How many, how many of us?

Let me try that again, look in the mirror at least a couple times a week and are like, you're so ugly. Like you have nothing to wear. Like, you know, we talk so poorly to ourselves a lot. Do you have specific ways of, I guess even just self-care? Like what kind of recenters you? You mentioned laying on the couch and just chilling, you know.

[44:04] Javier Muñoz: I have a lot of that recenters me because you know what? And I think prior to Hamilton, I had like a handful of things that were my go-tos like hiking or like, you know, having coffee with a friend. And those are very much things that are that still ground me. But like in order to survive the whirlwind that was Hamilton, I had to really find like daily things that kept me grounded and connected and like not overwhelmed because it was, I always joke around and I call Hamilton my blonde ambition tour, like you know, Madonna's big first thing that redefined how people perform concerts, yeah, like forever. And so it's like, yep, I did my, that was my blonde ambition tour. I did it, it's done, I'm never doing it again.

But it, the demand every day during that show, and I was in it for so many years, so I really had to come up with ways to nourish and feed. And I meditate every morning, I journal every morning, I occasionally pray. I am not a church-going person, but I do have a faith that I believe in. And it's my version of it, yeah, for sure, you know. And I do all those things consistently on top of the, you know, time with friends, the getting to nature. I need nature, I need to be by water just quite often. I just need to sit and be by the water. I don't have to do anything. I just need to be by it. And it's just sometimes I'll fill up a bowl of water in the kitchen and just watch it. It's what you can get. Put my finger in it, watch the ribbons.

[45:45] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Sorry. But yeah, it's, you know, it's all those things, and then like really, you know, this is real, like realistic. Yes, it takes discipline, but it works. You just, you gotta be on top of your nutrition, you have to be on top of your sleep, you have to be consistent with these things with exercise. And that doesn't mean you gotta be like, you know, throwing weights around the weight room, but like getting something, something, because it is that all nutrition, sleep, and exercise are gonna diffuse that anxiety or anticipation because you're looking at your whole day, and the whole day is like, how am I gonna get through today? You know, that stuff really brings that down and lets you stay present, you know.

[46:29] Javier Muñoz: So it's a combination of all those things. You know, I'm thinking now after you got off the blonde ambition tour and took your blonde wig off and kind of settled down and had kind of through the course that took your, well, so now she has a grill, I don't know what whatever she had back then off, and you kind of relaxed for a little bit, which I'm sure was lovely when that voice started creeping in, or I don't know if you had that anxiety of oh, uh the high has gone down. How did you kind of combat that? I mean, I know you certainly have immediately done a lot of other amazing things, but it just is something a lot of people don't talk about. I think no matter what show you're in, what level, there's always that high, that sadness, that grieving.

[47:08] Javier Muñoz: Oh man, I'm so, you are the only person who's ever asked me that question, and I think it is such an important thing to talk about because it is so real. And I, in fact, had to, the first things that I would do is I was reaching out to my friends. So I reached out to Chris Jackson, I reached out to Cynthia Erivo. I reached out to the, who is like my inner circle then. I'm just trying to, Alison Williams. I reached out to at one point, you know, like there were just, I reached out to my friends who I knew had to have gone through that same feeling of the great big high, and when you when you're finished and you come down from it and you're, it hurts. There's an actual ache in your body, and there's an actual hurt in your mind and in your heart.

And it's hard to like know how to heal it without creating crutches, you know. Like I know something about for me that I'm happy to share is I'm so vulnerable to filling the hurting space with food, to filling it with sleep, you know, with sort of escape. And you know, the pandemic I put on 40 pounds. I'm very open about this journey on my social media because it's taken so long to like shed it, you know, to like come back to my wellness.

[48:29] Robert Peterpaul: Well, thank you for doing that because I think that's really important.

[48:33] Javier Muñoz: Yes, I agree, and I agree, and I do wish that it were more of a conversation. Because really after Hamilton, it was a lot of leaning on my friends and leaning on my peers, leaning heavily on my therapist. She's amazing. Yeah, man, I firmly believe in therapy. She's incredible. And I, and also like really trying to be not strict. I don't want to say strict, I don't want to say like, because diet and nutrition, yeah, that I'm, I always say that's so important, but there's also a balance to it too, right? There's also like there is something great in the healing process to say, anybody want to go for pizza?

[49:20] Javier Muñoz: And like going for pizza. Do you know what I mean? Or does anybody want to have a burger? Let's go for a burger and like go do that. That's important. It resets your metabolism literally. If once a week you're just like, I'm eating an entire jar of Nutella. I mean, I don't know if people do that besides me, but I do that nightly, actually. Sorry. I put peanut butter and then I dip it in Nutella. It's like a buckeye situation. That's awesome. But it is important to give yourself those treats, you know. We need both. Yes. So it's I think it's about like, you know, that coming down process is again, you gotta be kind and gentle to yourself. You really, really do, and not not get it in your head that it's like something's wrong with you.

There's nothing wrong with you. That is so human and normal. Just reach out to someone who you think might have might can relate to that and have the conversation because guarantee there's you've got a friend in your life who can relate. And that's that's such a beautiful gateway into healing because just accepting that acceptance of it being quote unquote normal or knowing someone else that's gone through the same thing isn't gonna necessarily get rid of the problem, but it would make it a lot easier. You know, you might always have that anxiety or that feeling or whatever it is, but at least now you know, oh, it's just human. All right, I'm not gonna shit talk myself. Right. There it is. Exactly that.

That's that's that's the trap. I think that's when it gets sort of scary for you, you know, if you go down that road, that negative road. Speaking of traps, I'm not gonna trap you on this Zoom. I know we are running out of time, and I want to give you some rest in your press tour today. So if you could really quickly indulge me, I have a little bit of a surprise game.

[50:52] Robert Peterpaul: Uh oh.

[50:53] Javier Muñoz: I'm doing a mime. I don't know what I'm doing. Dance with my hands. It's called the compliment game because you haven't gotten enough compliments already throughout our time together. And basically, I reached out to someone in your life for a compliment or loving statement about you. I'm gonna read it to you, and then you have to guess who said it. Everyone's beautiful in their way. It's the compliments game on me. Yay, okay. It's the compliment. Compliment! Yay! Mump. Oh my god. And this interview was confirmed like very quickly. So this person came in clutch, like saved the day. So I appreciate this person because I was like, are we gonna be able to do it? I don't know, but I really wanted to because you're great.

And I wanted to give you a little gift. So I'm gonna read this to you. We'll say you get like three guesses. I don't know. Okay. If there's no rules, people are like, ah, it doesn't matter. I don't know anything. Like, uh we uh we're gonna see what happens. This is a lovely statement, and I'll try and help you if you can't figure it out because I'm sure a lot of people feel this way about you. Okay, but there are some hints. Okay. Okay. Talk about kindness. Javi is the true, genuine, grounded definition of kindness. He gives his whole heart to all of his work and every room he's in. We had already connected at the start of rehearsals, but one moment he spotted me kind of starting to do my work, watching from the side, and he just came super close to me and let me know he was there for me.

And those words rang true through our rehearsal process. The entire run from my surprise going on and so forth, and now, even after in our lives, he continues to show up for me and I for him. It's the best friendship.

[52:38] Javier Muñoz: Wow. Uh is that Jesse?

[52:42] Robert Peterpaul: Yes!

[52:43] Javier Muñoz: Oh my god, you nailed it! Jesse Hooker Bailey. Oh man. Uh she answered my random DM. She did. It's really beautiful. So she got right back to me, which is love. I think she's in parade right now.

[52:58] Robert Peterpaul: Is she?

[52:59] Javier Muñoz: Jessie?

[53:00] Robert Peterpaul: No, no.

[53:01] Javier Muñoz: Um, oh shoot. No, I'm I'm forgetting. I think she might be. I'm forgetting though.

[53:05] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[53:05] Javier Muñoz: Yeah. Well, listen, it's always a parade here. We're marching. Somebody's marching, but um, I don't know what that means. But I thank you, Jesse. I so appreciate that. It was so lovely. And I actually want to ask you if you're able to. I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'm talking to another Jesse right after this, Miss Jessie Mueller. And I don't know how well you know her, but do you want to be her complimenter?

[53:24] Robert Peterpaul: I don't see. I don't know if you guys actually.

[53:27] Javier Muñoz: I would okay, yes.

[53:28] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, cool. So just has to be it could be a couple sentences, a loving statement, and if you want to infuse a little hint in there so she can have it narrowed down.

[53:37] Javier Muñoz: I I um I haven't known Jesse very long, but for the you know, we we met, I believe in 2016 or 17, and there's just this energy in Jesse that we all walk around with like our self-critic running on like high speed all the time. And the moment you're around Jesse, all negativity disappears. Everything there is such an ease and safety and relax around Jesse, where I literally feel like shoulders drop, the cynical mind voice that we all have shuts up. There's she's just pure safe space and literally joy. I laugh my ass off with her all the time, besides all of the talent and everything that's there. There's a human being and a human heart that is so compassionate, so giving, so open that I just the whole room when you're in a room with her is safe, feels safe, but is safe.

[54:46] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that is lovely. What a beautiful compliment to give somebody.

[54:50] Javier Muñoz: I think I'm I'm gonna cry when I read it to her. That's beautiful. Thank you. I don't think she's gonna guess me.

[54:54] Robert Peterpaul: I don't think she's gonna guess it's me.

[54:57] Javier Muñoz: Okay, is there like a weird thing I should shout if she can't guess it? Is there a weird like inside joke?

[55:01] Robert Peterpaul: Is there a I I mean we don't you can tell her if she just doesn't get it, say onions.

[55:08] Javier Muñoz: Onions!

[55:09] Robert Peterpaul: I know you for onions too. Because when we were at this fat ham thing, you were like, yes, but an onion near me. One of my our someone at our network like clipped it. I thought it was so funny. I put it on TikTok and it did pretty well, but I want that to be a sound. It's like you saying I would run away from onions on the street. It's so funny. I want use that sound, people. Let's let's make this go viral.

[55:31] Javier Muñoz: Anyway, thank you. I really appreciate that. I think she's gonna love it. I know I gotta let you go. I would just love if we could end our time together here today by you sharing a tangible kindness tip or mantra for listeners that they can incorporate into their daily life to just bring some sunshine or make the world a little better.

[55:51] Javier Muñoz: Oh man, there's um um, oh my gosh. Besides listening to my heart says go, you know. Oh, well, I mean, of course, please listen to my heart says go. But uh I a tidbit a tidbit of kindness. I I I guess I guess I would say um, I I really do firmly believe in in the I in the notion that you you just don't have no idea what anyone is walking around with on their hearts and on their minds. And something I I've noticed certainly coming back from this is not a tidbit, this is more than a tidbit, I'm sorry.

[56:25] Robert Peterpaul: I love it. Let's let's go there.

[56:27] Javier Muñoz: The coming coming out of pandemic times and walking around New York, and I could see worry and anxiety and concern on people's faces. Like it was so it was so tangible for for everyone. And and I still and it gave me a sensitivity that now I still do that, even though we're so far out from lockdown. I walk around and I see people worrying about things. Like you can see their their mind turning on something. And I think if there's an opportunity in a day to show a person some some some gentleness and kindness, hold the door open, um, let them go pass in front of you. Um whatever the thing is, whatever, whatever the small gesture is, I say go for it and do it. Because it isn't just about what you've given someone, it's it's something you've given yourself to.

So it's it's a kindness that works both ways. And it's really these little things that have a huge impact. I mean, it takes nothing for you to ask the cashier as you're checking out how are you at Trader Joe? I mean, at Trader Joe's, I talk to them way too much. I'm like, how'd you get this job? I want to work here. I love Trader Joe's. And they're like, okay. But sometimes people are so taken aback that you actually take the time. Or sometimes they they react and they're in their own, you have to learn how to let the reaction go too, because they might not give you the reaction that you're expecting, like, oh, I held the door open. But it does touch people, so it's it's really important, and I love that.

And I appreciate that. And I appreciate you and your time here. This was such a gift. I just think you're a phenomenal human. And I mean, you're talking about what you were saying with Jesse. Your gentleness comes through, and I just felt so calm and so loved talking to you. So I really appreciate it, and I just wish you the best.

[58:07] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you so much. This has been a beautiful experience.

[58:09] Javier Muñoz: Oh it's wonderful to get to talk to you again. Truly.

[58:12] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, you too. I hope to see you soon, and I hope you have a great rest of your press day.

[58:16] Javier Muñoz: Thanks.

[58:17] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you.

[58:17] Javier Muñoz: All right, I'll I'll leave because I'm so bad at leaving Zooms. I'll click the button.

[58:22] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you.

[58:26] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week.

[58:33] Robert Peterpaul: I really love talking with Javier. I felt like we had such a great connection and kinship or kindship in this wild world. So I'm very grateful for that conversation. Please remember to go download his new musical concept album, My Heart Says Go. It's seriously amazing. Go, go, go download it. Once again, happy Pride Month. Your kindness tip of the week is pride themed. I was boggling my brain on how I could deliver a kindness tip that was specific in this regard. And I think what came up for me that's pretty timely is the reminder to use people's correct pronouns. That is not only an act of kindness, but it's just pure basic respect. I will now do my best to give you three actionable tips for doing this during Pride Month and beyond, so we can create and maintain an inclusive and affirming environment.

Number one, educating ourselves. Familiarize yourself with gender neutral pronouns such as they them. Understanding and using these pronouns correctly is a really powerful way to support non-binary and gender nonconforming individuals. Number two, normalizing pronoun sharing. Include your own pronouns, whatever they are, in your social media bios, your email signatures, your Zoom name, and more. By doing so, you can create a safe space for others to share their pronouns without any assumptions. And finally, number three, correcting without offense. If you hear someone using incorrect pronouns for someone else, kindly offer the correct pronouns in a non-confrontational manner. I cannot stress that enough.

Mistakes happen, but it's through gentle education that we can promote kindness and inclusivity, I think. So dear listeners, let's try to prioritize the power of language and kindness to create a world where everyone feels seen, heard, and respected. Thank you all for making me feel that way every time and tuning in. As a token of gratitude, I think I'll let you in on a little secret. Listen up, okay. Our next guest was also involved in my heart says go. We have the one and only Jessie Mueller. I'm such a huge fan of her, and we had a wonderful, lovely conversation. I cannot wait for you to hear this chat.