This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the sky a better place to be.

[0:21] Robert Peterpaul: I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:35] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, puppets! I hope you've been staying well and have been being kind to yourself. I'm so thrilled to bring you an enriching and empowering full interview today with one of my Broadway idols. Now, I hate to play favorites, but this is seriously one of my favorite conversations that I've ever had in my life. I was honored to speak with the one and only Tony-nominated gem of a person, Rob McClure.

[1:04] Robert Peterpaul: Rob McClure is an actor and singer who's become a magical fixture on the Broadway scene. Growing up in New Jersey, what what? Rob was a bona fide theater kid, winning the Paper Mill Playhouse Rising Star Award his senior year, which is a coveted award for us Jersey Theater Kids. Consequently, his first professional gig was at the Playhouse shortly after graduation. Rob made his Broadway debut in 2002 as an understudy in I'm Not Rappaport. From 2006 to 2009, he went on to play several roles in Avenue Q, both on Broadway and on the show's national tour. Rob spent the next three years working on a musical that would put him center stage and change his life forever: Chaplin. The title role earned him a Theater World Award and his first Tony Award nomination.

[1:54] Robert Peterpaul: I most recently watched Rob daying his heart out in Beetlejuice on Broadway. Note to self: don't say Beetlejuice two more times. Well, now I can't say it one more time, or Beetlejuice will appear. Oh wait! It's showtime. Rob most recently lit up Broadway as the lead role in Mrs. Doubtfire, a marathon performance that earned him his second Tony nomination. Speaking of, it was just announced that the Writer's Strike will be affecting the Tony's live telecast this year, which we all love to watch. Please stay tuned after this interview for your kindness tip of the week, where we'll chat a bit more about the writer's strike. Back to Rob.

[2:36] Robert Peterpaul: One of the things I love most about him is the childlike sense of play and wonderment he seems to exude through all his projects. We cover so much ground together, from balancing your passions and your personal life to keeping your mindset in a positive space. Of course, Rob also regales us with tons of fun Broadway stories. It's two Robs, one pod! Ha ha! Get it? Huh? To see some fun behind-the-scenes content from this interview and so many more, please visit us on Instagram at Art of Kindness Pod and at Robert Peterpaul. If you're enjoying what we're doing here at the AOK, I'd love for you to please leave us a five-star review. Shout out to our latest review from Matt Gilhoy at the Life Shift Podcast. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate it more than you know. Now, without further ado, please welcome the remarkable Rob McClure.

[3:39] Rob McClure: Hello!

[3:40] Rob McClure: Hello, how are ya?

[3:42] Robert Peterpaul: I'm great. How are you?

[3:43] Rob McClure: You are punctual.

[3:45] Robert Peterpaul: You know what? So are you? You're early. What do they say in the theater? If you're not early, you're late.

[3:48] Rob McClure: I don't know.

[3:52] Robert Peterpaul: How's it going?

[3:53] Rob McClure: Great, thanks. Thank you for this. This is fun.

[3:54] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you so much for coming on. I gotta say, I'm gonna do the huge intro about you and like your bio and everything later. I won't make you sit here while I do that because I feel like it could be a little awkward and I want to maximize our time together.

[4:07] Rob McClure: Thank you in advance.

[4:09] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, perfect. But I do have to say, to make things awkward because I am awkward, this is kind of surreal for me because I really look up to you in so many ways in this industry, and you're kind of like my Broadway role model. I've been called like a mini you by people sometimes, and I take it as a compliment, and not that I'm anything like you, but you know, not only your amazing work on stage, but I just admire this life you've carved for yourself outside of it and how you seem to conduct yourself and balance everything, all your passions.

[4:39] Rob McClure: So, you know, I could compliment you for hours, and I'm sure I'll keep doing it.

[4:43] Rob McClure: It's so very sweet of you, and I'm delighted to talk about it as somebody who's continuing to work on it, you know what I mean? I don't claim to have anything figured out.

[4:54] Robert Peterpaul: Well, it seems like it, but I know it's always a journey for everybody, the process, you know.

[5:00] Rob McClure: I love it. But now that I've kind of ambushed you with some compliments, I would love to know how are you at taking compliments?

[5:05] Rob McClure: I mean, you seem to do a pretty good job.

[5:07] Rob McClure: I, you know, you take it in stride, right? Like I so appreciate anybody caring or noticing about what I'm up to on stage or off. It's very, you know. But I do tend to go to like, oh gosh, is that true? Is that true? Have I been doing that? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I go to like, did I earn that compliment? I certainly appreciate it. And I never, I try never to take it for granted, you know. Because I remember, you know, when I was first starting out and waiting at the stage doors to say hi to people, and you want that moment to be like, hey, you don't know what you just did means to me. And I remember how much I meant that. And it was just as important for me to give that as it was for the person to get it.

It was just as much of a validating transaction for me. So I try not to deny people that transaction by rolling my eyes or thanks or, you know, that I try to kindly tell people when they go like, I'm sure you get this all the time. It's like, well, A, you don't. And B, you feel inclined to share, you know.

[6:27] Rob McClure: So it feels equally as rude to deny you the opportunity to like because if you are stopping somebody to say something, you are moved and compelled to do so, you know. It's when it seems like they are less interested in the transaction and more interested in the selfie that I smell that a mile away and go like, oh, this is actually not about that. This is actually about you going like this is the company I'm keeping, as opposed to any sort of like real human interaction, you know.

[7:01] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, no, I totally get that. I mean, it's like everything in the theater, it's that reciprocation, that exchange of love. I mean, if you're on stage and the audience isn't clapping or reacting, they're not doing their part. So it's a similar thing where if you're not accepting that and you're just like, oh no, I gotta go, thank you. It makes it a little bit more uncomfortable for the person.

[7:20] Rob McClure: 100%. 100%. Yeah.

[7:22] Rob McClure: But we're taught in society to be humble and to not take that all in and let it go to our head. So it's kind of hard to find that balance. But you know, I guess all you can do is smile, say thank you.

[7:31] Rob McClure: Yeah, I mean, I do think and there is a difference, right, between accepting it and letting it go to your head, right? I mean, I'm so glad that anything I'm working on moved you in any kind of way. That is a true statement. The notion of like, oh, great. Everyone seems to be saying that it's working, so my work is done here, and I can just sort of coast where I'm at because I seem to be doing it successfully. That's the, I feel like there's a step that goes from like graciously accepting a compliment to it being validation that means you don't have to strive anymore is something that I don't relate to because I, like many people, you know, really, really remain grateful because it was hard. Like the odds were so against me, as they are with anyone who tries to do this, right?

I mean, some more than others, I am a privileged white dude. But it's not easy. None of this is easy, you know. The second you go like, yeah, life in the theater, you're signing up for scrappy ups and downs, right? So, like maintaining perspective.

[8:45] Rob McClure: I was thinking a lot about this, and because in preparation for this, you know, talking about kindness, it's easy to like boil it down and be like, be nice, you know what I mean?

[8:56] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah.

[8:58] Rob McClure: But I started, I was going like, well, in preparation to actually talk about this, like what does that mean? And so often in this industry, like people will come and do master classes and be like, be nice, or people won't want to work with you. And you're like, wait, wait, time out. If you're only being nice because you want to work again, you're missing the point.

[9:19] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, there's such a difference between being nice and being kind, I think.

[9:22] Rob McClure: Yeah, yeah. And I think the thing that resonated most with me as I was like starting to talk with you is this notion of like perspective, but not just cur present tense perspective, but cumulative perspective, right? So like trying to maintain the perspective of 15-year-old me waiting at a stage door while now being eight Broadway shows in me.

[9:50] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[9:51] Rob McClure: And not losing that piece of myself that had that perspective because it's very easy to live in present-tense perspective. But letting perspective be a cumulative thing, I think maintains gratitude in a way that separates kindness from niceties, you know.

[10:09] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, yeah, that totally makes sense. And it is kind of, I mean, the joke's on people who just aren't kind because it's not why you do it, but you do get it back. I mean, people want to work with kind people, like you're saying, people want to be around kind, positive people, and it is such a hard thing to break into this industry. So once you get there, if you can maintain that, it's super important to keep that perspective going, like you're saying.

[10:31] Rob McClure: And I mean, I know we're privileged white dudes, but I think I don't even know if I should put a butt there. I just feel like your trajectory was something a little different, even to carve out in a musical theater. Because looking up to you and seeing the roles you were playing, I got to see this kind of like more sensitive, quirky, funny guy that maybe wasn't always the lead in a musical, whereas it was like the strong name is typical type of I love you for that.

[10:41] Rob McClure: I love you for that. Because I wanted to be that. You know what I mean? Like the hero for me, my hero growing up was the Australian musical theater superstar Anthony Warlow. He was like, I discovered him on the two-disc concept album of Jekyll and Hyde when I was 15. And he was everything I wanted to be, you know. But it did take like years of trying to be the next him before I figured out what the first me meant.

[11:24] Rob McClure: And I love that you observed the sort of weird, vulnerable, awkward quirkiness inside of me that I had to go like, oh wait, that's my singular lens. Why am I learning away from that to sing "This Is the Moment" at an audition? And not embracing the very things that make me singularly me, you know.

[11:52] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, the one singular sensation that you are, I would say.

[11:57] Rob McClure: No, I love that, and I'm glad you've embraced you. And I think before I ask you any more questions, we kind of touched on it, but I would just love to get your definition of kindness, you know, what kindness means to you.

[12:11] Rob McClure: Empathy. To me they are very much intertwined, you know. I think the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and therefore show them grace in that in your interactions. To give the benefit of the doubt, even when it's hard to remember that people've got so much going on under the surface that you don't know about. So assume they need the kindness in the moment of your interaction. Because Lord knows there are times when I do. And what it doesn't mean is avoiding confrontation or hard conversations or moments of difficulty or advocacy or speaking up when you or others need speaking up for kindness is not flying under the radar, you know what I mean?

[13:05] Rob McClure: Kindness is active and participatory and speaking up for a larger collective that's not just yourself, you know.

[13:16] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love that.

[13:18] Rob McClure: Yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to define, but it is more rooted in others than it is rooted in sort of instinctive behavior from yourself rather than being a kind person, and more about trying to read in a moment what someone else may need and the things you can infer if you pay attention, you know.

[13:44] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, paying attention and seeing people, and I mean we talk a lot on here about the two emotions that everything boils down to, which is love and fear, or that's at least what they say, whoever they are, everything you can kind of just boil down to love or fear. And if you're leading with love, you can still do everything else in life just from that route, you know.

[14:03] Rob McClure: So you can still have hard conversations, but they're coming from a place of love. You know, you can realize if you get, and I doubt you, if anybody does, I'm a I'm gonna report them right now. But if you get any sort of negative comment, you can say, Oh, that person's hurting, and it's not me, I'm not gonna engage on social media. So I think it's really valuable what you said because it is hard to define, but also looking at what it's not is important and helps us realize what it is.

[14:29] Robert Peterpaul: 100%.

[14:30] Rob McClure: Yeah, yeah. And I think leading with love is certainly a wonderful way to put it. Um, and love as an active, you know, as a verb and not a noun. Um, because it's a, uh, there are times where it is a choice where it's not your instinct to treat a certain person with love, given the way you might infer their be their current mood or the way they're treating you or others. Um, but to have that moment, step back from fear and anger, put yourself in their shoes, and then tactfully reapproach the interaction, is far more valuable than the moments of blow up.

[15:10] Rob McClure: And as silly as this is, I currently I have a four-year-old right now. And that, like, whoa, what where is she at? What does she need? If I push this button, she'll blow up. If I step back, I don't want her to think she can treat me that way again. But how do I I I don't want to lean in and get her more upset. So maybe I give her a sec. It's that constant sort of um self-negotiation in anticipation of what I think she might need. And it is a, you know, a microcosm of a far larger exercise in tact.

[15:47] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[15:48] Rob McClure: Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah, that that is, uh, you know, you're in a room with a director who's got pressure coming in from every angle, and you go, okay, I don't want them to blow up. I don't want to, you know what I mean? It's it's but I need this from them, and I don't want them to push away, but I want to respectfully it is that larger exercise intact, you know. Um kindness can be strategic, you know what I mean? In how you are, um, uh do how you are loving, how you are, um being gentle, how you are, um not wanting to push someone away, how you but it does require um navigation, you know, and uh and it's mostly based, you know, it's it as an actor, not to get too cheesy, but it is that like acting cheese.

[16:40] Rob McClure: So yeah, but but like acting is reacting, right?

[16:43] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[16:44] Rob McClure: That's not just on stage. I think that ha that's also in life, right? Like if if you're just acting, acting, acting, acting, acting, acting, acting. How can you be kind if there's no reaction, if there's no acceptance of what the other person's giving you, and therefore this. Um, and that's why I tell, you know, I teach a lot and I and I go work at high schools and middle schools and colleges, and I always give the faculty so much love because I really do believe that these are exercises in humanity, they're exercises in energy. And no matter what field these people go into, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I can't think of a more valuable tool.

[17:23] Rob McClure: Um regardless of the field you end up in. Um, and that's why I tell these people like there are more and more fields that are scooping up theater people who don't do theater. Because a dear friend of mine has a huge company in the medical industry, and he tells me all the time if you have any friends who are like, I you know what, I need a different field right now. Please send them my way because I have found that theater people are the people who get things done, who work hard, who treat each other with respect, who are kind, who um are socially conscious, who are respectful. Like he's just like they get it.

[17:59] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[17:59] Rob McClure: And this is someone coming from the corporate medical world. Wow. Um and I feel like that's happening more and more that people are going, like, these people seem to have a have an ability to see things from someone else's point of view that other people don't.

[18:12] Rob McClure: Yeah, because we kind of have this dream that stems from our childhood, at least for me. It's like you want to keep that child in you going. And then you start to add on things, you take classes, you learn the business end, it kind of clouds in your head. And then before you know it, you have this toolkit. And it's sort of like what you're saying in life, which is you have your toolkit and you have to apply different tools for different people because everything is so subjective. So there's no blanket rule. What works for your kid might not work for my, well, I only have kittens, but they're sleeping right now. So I mean that they don't listen to me anyway.

[18:43] Robert Peterpaul: Same exact principles.

[18:45] Rob McClure: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Come on. Or it might not work for like a big director when you're interacting. And some people even take I found like when you're smiling and you're trying to be kind, they don't think it's genuine, which I think is just like an issue with the world. Um I have you come across that. It's like I cannot tell you frustrating.

[19:00] Rob McClure: Right now, I could pull up probably 50 text messages from people I've worked with.

[19:05] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[19:05] Rob McClure: That are usually two to three weeks after I've started working with them, and it's an apology. And they go like, hey, I just want to apologize. Cause for the first 48 hours, I was like, There's no way this is legit. Um, and then they, you know, and then they end up going like, and I I kind of refused to believe that this sort of like incessant um optimism could possibly be real, and I'm sorry, and I'm learning that it is, and I uh I love you for it.

[19:40] Rob McClure: It's a crazy thing because it's not something I'm actively choosing to do, yeah. But it is sweet after the fact to be like, oh, that's very sweet, because the first 48 hours I thought you hated me, and now I'm glad you don't.

[19:53] Robert Peterpaul: I know. Oh, I'm a liter, I think we are the same because I my mind, and I have to train myself not to go there, but I'm like, this person hates me. They're totally not true. I mean, as hard as it is, right? We all we all have middle school us in there, right?

[20:08] Rob McClure: Yeah, like cumulative perspective, right? There's still part a part of you that has the perspective of like I why don't you like me? I'm trying to, and you know, therapists have helped me realize that there are instances where you have to be okay with with someone not liking you. You have to you have to that has to be okay with you, and you need to be able to move on without the need for their acceptance or liking you. Um but that it that that's a human want. You know, I remember being in therapy and saying, like, it feels gross to say like I wanted them to like me. And she was like, why?

[20:50] Rob McClure: But wait, what? Like, why is that gross? That people people want that's a basic human need. I was like, Yeah. Are we allowed to think that?

[20:59] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, no, it because then you're like, you go into these rehearsal rooms sometimes, especially if it's for a workshop or whatever it is, uh a tighter process, and there's certain people that unfortunately would rather kind of shit talk the process and things going on and get into a negative space where we're sitting there maybe like puppies, like just trying to be friends with everybody. And it it is hard not to take it personally.

[21:20] Rob McClure: So it's good to hear that other people experience that.

[21:22] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. And I feel like I uh I feel like with the rising of the internet, because I have been around long enough now, uh that um I feel like it is now um a cool thing to hate on other things. You know, I and and as as ridiculous as this example is, the first time I remember it was Titanic. The movie Titanic came out. And the entire world went, oh my god. A, how did they do that? How did they how did computers make that boat underwater? How did that guy fall off the side of the boat and hit his legs on the propeller and spit? How did they do that?

[22:06] Rob McClure: Nothing like that. Jennifer Coolidge? No, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. But you know what I mean? Like, how did they do that? And then Celine Dion singing this crazy song that's on Z100 every three minutes that everybody loves. And then, like two weeks later, there was nothing cooler than a high school kid who hated Titanic. And it and in my mind, I remember going like, like, why? Oh, wait, you just want to be the only it's a thing you can do that will differentiate yourself from the masses.

[22:40] Rob McClure: That's what I'm recognizing the biggest value you're creating in just not wanting to be a person who enjoys something that other people. And I feel like I have watched that carry over into far more mainstream examples where it is the person who can come up with the fastest, wittiest biting quip after something beloved arrives, is uh is the thing that's retweeted the most and the thing that is shared the most to get somebody to giggle at their vicious bite. The what is the wittiest, most sarcastic pull something that's thriving down.

[23:16] Robert Peterpaul: Um it's easy.

[23:24] Rob McClure: It's an easy, cheap way to differentiate yourself when something else is being loved on that I just I I recognize since I was a teenager, and I just call BS on. I just think it's it's an empty uh it's an empty play at self-deferent uh differentiation.

[23:44] Robert Peterpaul: You're so right.

[23:45] Rob McClure: And I don't know if with like the chicken or the egg, which came first. I mean the egg obviously came first, but I don't know if it started with the media or with people, because I think it goes down to a money thing. I mean, I started this podcast as one of my day jobs has always been writing for these entertainment magazines. We have A-B testing all year round. But during the pandemic, I was seeing such a negative onslaught of news that everybody was reading and feeling. And on our website, you can A B test. And so I saw directly how all these salacious headlines were the ones people were clicking.

[24:14] Robert Peterpaul: But on the other side, people were clicking really, really positive headlines, like look at Hillary Duff's baby photos, see the Royal Wedding album. So I knew there was like a market to showcase all the wonderful things people in our business are doing. And I woke up and thought of this idea, but I do wonder if it goes back to a money-making thing for the media? Because like you're saying, everyone's posting this hot topic. I mean, even with the rise to famous celebrities like a Jennifer Lawrence, she was the best. Everyone loved her. She was saying zany things on TV shows. Then, you know, a year later, it's like all these things are terrible about her. And it's just an unfortunate cycle that I think we've probably fallen into.

[24:53] Rob McClure: And I think the thing that magnifies it and has made it ultimately worse is that the internet has given uh a false sense of anonymity to those people. So as whereas before, if you said like, I hate this thing or this person because of this quippy witty insult with your name next to it, there was a larger risk attached to that. But if I can get a trillion retweets on that as silly guy 45.

[25:25] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, how did you know my username?

[25:27] Rob McClure: See, I knew I knew it. I knew it. That that person can hide behind that, right? Like I'm I'm again old enough to remember when like AOL chat rooms showed up. Yeah. And the first thing was like, whoa, I can talk to someone on the other side of the planet. This is cool. And by day three, it was like, your mother's a whore. Send. Yeah. Because because people could, oh my gosh, there's a thrill of a conflict where there's no consequence. So I can just spew bile into this machine in front of me as an exercise in self-deferentiation.

[25:58] Rob McClure: Yeah. And make me feel like I have impacted someone in any way, be it negative or positive. Because if I don't feel like I have a positive impact on the world, maybe I can make this kind of impact. Give me, give me some way that I am changing someone's day, even if it's negatively. I feel like people just want to feel like they're landing on someone else in any way.

[26:24] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[26:24] Rob McClure: Um, and that anonymity has provided a shield that I that I think is not our friend.

[26:31] Robert Peterpaul: I agree.

[26:31] Rob McClure: Not our friend at all, unfriend. And I think it's hard to come from the other place. A lot of people don't want to because they don't want to be vulnerable and being kind and showing love requires vulnerability. So it is easier. It's like reaching for the candy instead of the banana. It's a lot easier to just spew that stuff and it's a vicious cycle because then you know we teach our kids don't talk to strangers. I mean there's a lot of validity in those things that we're teaching our kids.

[26:54] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[26:55] Rob McClure: But it hardens them so it's like a it's hard to find that balance.

[26:58] Robert Peterpaul: Totally crazy.

[27:00] Rob McClure: Totally. But I really really wanted to ask you about something you put out there that went viral that made the newsfeed a little bit more positive and got a lot of traction which I was so excited about. I think you got to write in the New York Times about it. I can provide maybe more context about it in your intro just for the sake of time but I really did want to ask you about seat D8 during your run of that was that was such a beautiful thing. I mean how did that come about?

[27:30] Rob McClure: I really do remember um the first day we moved into the winter garden theater for tech and I had totally forgotten you know what as you're moving into these theaters one of the things that I love to do is explore the legacy of the theater that I'm performing in. When I was at the Barrymore in uh Chaplin just sitting there and going like ooh somebody kept records of everyone who's had this dressing room before me. Oh my God Sydney Poitiers was in my dressing room like these these incredible, you know. Um, and as you're as you're going through, you're just going, you feel the legacy in the walls, you know.

[28:08] Rob McClure: It's an amazing gift. Yeah. And we were moving into the Winter Garden, and I was like, right, the Winter Garden has had these amazing, you know, the original run of Funny Girl, the original run of West Side Story. Like, wow. Oh my God, the very first time someone sang "Tonight, Tonight" was here. I remember there was a day we were teching and Sophia Ann Caruso was singing "Dead Mom." Oh, so good. And I was sitting upstage during tech, and I said, "Hey Sophia," and she turned around. And I said, "You're standing where Barbara Streisand used to finish." And she started crying. Oh my goodness. This moment of being like, "Hey, just so you know, that's nuts." Just so you know, you know what I mean?

Like, I would have been there that I was in and out. I used to work with David Corins. I was like his socialists. Oh, amazing guy. Amazing. Yeah. I was there when they were doing the initial sketches and stuff. I was in and out, but I remember with Beetlejuice since it's such a huge show. And like the tech was wild for that. Just wild. The number of laptops that were open in the audience during hundreds. Um, but anyway, so I'm on stage and I'm just going like, oh yeah, looking through the legacy of this theater, and then going like, right, and of course, Cats ran here forever. Wait. Uh, my first Broadway show ever was a sixth-grade field trip to see Cats. I sat up there. And then I run the seats as a warm-up.

I've done it. It started in 2001. I was doing what was then Lime Light, what would become Chaplin at the La Jolla Playhouse, and we had an 8:30 a.m. student matinee. Wow. And I was like, no, no, no. And I got to the theater and I was like, this is not gonna happen. I'm gonna start, I'm gonna try to sing the first note, and it's just not gonna happen. So I panicked and I just started running the seats like a sports stadium. I ran row A, B, C, D, E, F, went up to the balcony, did the whole balcony, did a little vocal warm-up and ran back down. And I was like, whoa, that worked. Um, and then that night I was like, that I just felt so clicked into my breath support. I'm gonna do that again. I did it for the night show, and I have done it for every performance of every show I've ever done since.

I love that. Um, whether it was the 200-seat theater where I was just doing Little Shop of Horrors, or whether it's the 12,000-seat Muni, which used to take 70 minutes to run. Oh yeah. I would do it. It just was super fun and a great way to connect to the space. A great way to, uh, I used to like put my hand out and touch every seat. Um, and it was a way to, and I also love to learn the seat map so that I can go backstage and be like, "Hey stage manager, D117 is filming." Oh yes. I feel like I would get OCD with that. I would like have to touch every seat, and then I'd be like, totally. Oh my gosh, that's what a great skill. Yeah. Yeah. F7 doesn't have their mask on. F5 just looks mean. They're knitting.

Exactly. Um, but anyway, so I'm out there, and uh, that day when I ran the seats, I got up there and I was like, oh my god, this is totally where I sat. Um, and I remembered seat D8, and I was like, I think I still have that ticket stub somewhere. Um, and I've kept every ticket stub and playbill ever because I'm sentimental that way. Same. Um, and I just remember binders, like the big playbill. I have these cardboard boxes for my Kia labeled on the front in a closet. It's like my playbills, Broadway playbills, regional playbills, touring playbills, school playbills, color. It's like all labeled. I can send you a video. It's the dream. Please do. We'd recently moved, and my wife just got married, is like, we need to get rid of these.

We have these big bins, and they're all filled with playbills. She was like, "Please, like, we're taking up space." They're really special. Congratulations on getting married. Thank you so much. Um, but uh, so I just remember sitting there, and then we were approaching opening night, and I was running the seats, and I just, the idea just popped into my head. I was like, you know, when I was sitting in that seat, already confronted by those naysaying voices who wanted to differentiate themselves, like it was real cool on the bus ride home from Cats to be the kid going, like, "That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen," right? That there was no one cooler on the bus than the kid shitting on the show.

You know what I mean? Yeah. While I'm sitting there going, like, people get paid? What is happening? Like, a world was being introduced to me, right? And I just remember thinking, like, it was completely mind-numbingly against all odds that I would ever be doing that thing that I was watching. It seemed so unattainable. It seemed like getting to the moon. It was like the furthest thing from possible for me. And the fact that I was about to open a new Broadway show on that stage, I just remember thinking, like, gosh, if anybody out in the audience is going like, "God, I would love to do that," but they there's no way. Your odds were no greater than mine on that field trip. So I just remember thinking, like, I'm just gonna leave a little note.

I'm gonna scotch tape it to the seat and just say, like, "Hey, I don't know what your dreams are, but I want you to know this was my dream, and I'm gonna be opening this show tonight, and that's the seat I sat in. Um, so whatever it is that seems unfathomable to you, it's not." Um, and I took a really quick photo and put it on my Instagram. Um, not for any other reason than to just be like, this was a sweet thing I tried to do tonight. And I think that's important. I think it's important to post those things. And getting back to your point about the internet is that for every angry response I posted during the political nightmare that was 2016 and on, I thought I was sharing intelligent, passionate arguments that would not get beyond the walls of my friends, right?

But one genuine act of kindness exploded. Truly exploded. I woke up the next morning to my phone on fire and a phone call from the New York Times. Wow. Like, wait, what? I mean, I genuinely woke, I had no idea that this had happened, why it happened, what had happened. So I did end up writing this article for the New York Times where I was just saying like, the point of it was that I think I opened with the line, um, when did sentimental become a bad word? And it's like there is something about like, you know, how many critics love to say that a show is cloyingly sweet, trying too hard, um, sentimental mush, whatever. Like there is a difference between, you know, um, you know, being sugar-coated for sugar-coated sake, and just having a positive outlook on the world or the way your show wraps up, you know.

Um, and I think again it's those, it's those people, it's the kids on the bus coming home from Cats, a lot of whom become critics, yeah, and what critic does, what critic doesn't want to have the sassiest takedown headline the night after something opens, you know? It's a competition, um, and fighting those voices that post and what happened with that post was proof to me that people are drowning in that cynicism and anytime they catch a glimpse of genuine optimism or kindness, they swim out of it as hard as they can and they latch on to it. And it was a moment where I was like, oh again, just like trying to be Anthony Warlofe, it was like, oh, that was a moment where I listened to my sort of singular lens on the world despite naysayers and people went like, ooh, something genuine, something authentically kind, and they grab it.

Um, and it's a, I could have never anticipated what that would do and that sort of fueled what I went on to do in the pandemic, which was this conductor series online that was sort of rooted in silliness and kindness and fun and optimism and then became much more socially conscious. Um, but it was, it was again finding a way to listen to my singular voice and try and shout kindness into the void and humor into the void to try and battle the doom scrolling, which is not easy. Um, but when you strike a chord, people really do jump, they desperately want something to latch on to, you know.

[36:59] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. It was like a raft in a sea of negativity. I mean, just a burst of sunshine. I mean, the things that you're doing. And do you know Clayborn Elder with his story of kindness?

[37:10] Rob McClure: Yeah, I mean Clay Elder is one of the most extraordinary humans I've ever met in my life. Oh yeah. He's such an incredible guy. Truly. I've gotten to know him a bit and just what he's doing now and how he's transformed that into an initiative. Something that might keep growing is truly one of the most extraordinary people. He jumps out to me, Jen Kalela jumps out to me.

[37:30] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[37:31] Rob McClure: There are people who just, um, who lead with such active kindness, not just like, oh, they're nice. I heard that person, I heard that person's nice. And you check up on them and they're like, oh yeah, because they are leading a campaign to whatever, you know. That's what I mean about love being a verb.

[37:49] Robert Peterpaul: Oh yeah, love is an action verb. That's something my nanny actually always says.

[37:52] Rob McClure: But you're one of them too, and I think it's just so special what you're doing because we need that, especially after this crazy time. And I think it is our time because I have found that these kind of cheesy positive shows are what people are watching and what they want to see, in addition to this other stuff. But you know, like during the pandemic, all these Hallmark movies and kind of funny, just like sugary things are what people turn to for comfort.

[38:16] Robert Peterpaul: So it's just silly to me because we can apply that in real life and we can try our best to live like that without being, I guess, toxic positivity is a thing, but you know, without kind of simmering into that.

[38:27] Rob McClure: Yeah. I think it becomes toxic when it does not allow people to voice their struggles. Right? When it's like, be a good sport. That's not love. Love is not forcing someone else to shut up when they have a concern. Love is listening and acting on their concern and validating their concern. You know what I mean?

[38:49] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[38:49] Rob McClure: So this toxic positivity becomes like, don't make waves, shut up and be nice.

[38:54] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[38:55] Rob McClure: That's not love. That's not kindness. That is toxic positivity, right?

[39:00] Robert Peterpaul: Um, sake.

[39:03] Rob McClure: Um, you know, uh, and notice that it's like, yeah, being positive while validating others, because if you're invalidating someone else's experience, then I don't think there's anything else about that.

[39:19] Robert Peterpaul: Well, I think it was brilliant that you used the word force because I think positive actions and kindness are a force for change, but they shouldn't be forced.

[39:27] Rob McClure: So if you're forcing someone, then that's maybe when it falls into being toxic, among other things, like you just mentioned.

[39:33] Robert Peterpaul: But I really am just so curious after looking at the article, and I tried to reread it again, but I realized, oh, I didn't have my subscription to the New York Times, so I can do the full thing.

[39:42] Rob McClure: You can read the first paragraph before one lady scroll anymore.

[39:44] Robert Peterpaul: Oh my gosh, when I try to scroll so quickly or I screen record it, and I'm like, no, but I did remember, I think the last time when it first came out and I read it, you had said you didn't know who the person that sat there was, and you never found out. Did you ever find out?

[39:56] Rob McClure: No, and I absolutely, and I actually love that. I love that it just vanished into the ether and that somebody that, um, that the person who read it knows, uh, but that they might not be a theater person. They might not be a person who wants to share their, you know, if they say it was me, then somebody might say, "Well, what is your dream? Are you gonna chase your dream?" And they're not ready for that, you know what I mean? It could be somebody who, um, who rolled their eyes, it might have been those kids on the back of the bus at Cats who roll their eyes and throw it in the trash can, who, uh, then maybe read about it online or saw it later and goes like, "Oh wait, should I have done something with that?" but now doesn't want to share? Who knows, right?

[40:43] Robert Peterpaul: Who knows?

[40:44] Rob McClure: Um, but whatever it was, it's okay. It's exactly where it was supposed to have gone. Um, and now luckily, thanks to the traction that it got, which I could have never imagined or didn't intend on, uh, lots of people got to read it.

[40:59] Robert Peterpaul: It was so beautiful.

[41:00] Rob McClure: And so, I mean, I remember reading it and it filled me with not only love but inspiration to then get up and work on myself tape or whatever it was, or sign up for a class. You know, I feel like I could go down so many rabbit holes with you. I did want to ask you, you know, besides we were talking about this wonderful, I thought that was a beautiful act of kindness or example of something that you've done in addition to many things that I've heard from like mutual friends and just people talking about you.

[41:26] Rob McClure: You have this kind of beautiful reputation. I would love to know if you could share an act of kindness on Broadway that you've experienced or something that's stuck with you from, you know, Beetlejuice to Something Rotten to Mrs. Doubtfire, which I'm so upset I didn't get to see because of the shutdown.

[41:41] Robert Peterpaul: But I had tickets for Christmas and I had them.

[41:43] Rob McClure: Oh, I'm so sorry.

[41:44] Robert Peterpaul: And so Mug.

[41:46] Rob McClure: Oh, I love it.

[41:47] Robert Peterpaul: I love it.

[41:48] Rob McClure: And I also was gonna coincidentally be her for Halloween, even before the Broadway show came out, but then I couldn't do it anyway.

[41:54] Robert Peterpaul: I would just it's not about me.

[41:55] Rob McClure: I would just love to know.

[41:56] Robert Peterpaul: I love it.

[41:56] Rob McClure: I love it.

[41:57] Rob McClure: If you have any stories to share, yes.

[41:59] Rob McClure: For sure. One of the most profound ones for me was, uh, when I was in high school when I first started falling in love with theater, I grew up in New Jersey. Same.

[42:10] Rob McClure: Yeah, Central Jersey, the Chatham players. Uh, Susie Spidel, a good friend of mine, directs a lot. Does the annual Christmas Carol at the Chatham Play at the Yes Theater? Yes. I have so many friends that have done shows there. And then I think Monclair, I saw you've done a lot of theater in. I went to MSU, yeah. Yes. Do you teach there? Because I know so many people. I I've gone back to do master classes and stuff, yeah. Absolutely. That's amazing. Um so I used to take the New Jersey Transit bus into TKTS and get whatever was on TKTS and then uh and then go see shows. Um I was I was part-timing uh baking bagels at 4:30 in the morning before high school. So just trying to save some money, but spending it all on going to see shows.

Yes, Jersey bagels are the best, by the way. So and rolled kettle boiled, just saying. Um I used to take the bus in all the time. So I went and saw the Steppenwolf production of One Flew over the Cuckoos and this with Gary Sinise. And it was a Wednesday matinee. Uh and I was absolutely bowled over by it. And I waited at the stage door, and because it was a Wednesday matinee and all the other old folks got on the bus and to go back to the nursing homes, I was the only one waiting at the stage door. And Gary Sinise came out. I had just done my first play ever, which was Anything Goes in high school, cheesy musical. And he came out the stage door and I said, I just started acting. I cannot believe you just did what you just did and the notion that you have to do it again in a couple of hours is I I'm I I don't even and Gary Sinise, very kindly said, uh, hey, just so you know, speaking of which, because our show is like three hours long, my break on a two-show day is actually pretty short.

Um, so I have to run and get lunch. Do you mind walking and talking? He took me to the Starlight Deli on 44th Street between uh 8th Avenue and Broadway, bought me an egg salad sandwich, and stood at a counter with me for an hour and asked me all about what I had done, what I want to do, what what is it that I want to end up doing, and just just listened. Just listen. And was could not have been kinder. I have never gotten to meet or see him since, but I would love to tell him that that that story um again maintains that cumulative perspective, right? So when there's a kid at the stage door who's like, Mr. McClure, I really want to thank you. It's so easy to be the Titanic people and roll my eyes at that kid.

Except I am that kid. So the the notion that uh in that moment, and that doesn't mean there are days where you don't have to catch a train. You you you have to set personal boundaries, right? Um, but it does mean taking a moment, looking them in the eyes and letting them know that their dreams are valid and what they experience tonight is valid. And I thank them for their kindness and the fact that they waited in the cold to say I did a good job, I don't take for granted. It doesn't take long, you know. Um, even if you come out and you say to 150 people waiting, um, I have a four-year-old at home and I have to go relieve a babysitter, but I love each and every one of you, and I cannot believe you waited for my autograph.

If you send the play go to the theater, I'll sign it back and mail it to you. I'm sorry. People recognize authenticity and they and they thank you for it. Doesn't mean that you have to take it 45 minutes with each person because because we're humans, right? Um, but what Gary Sinise did for me that day has forever impacted that cumulative perspective uh since.

[45:48] Robert Peterpaul: Wow. That is so special, and I can't wait to edit this so I can listen to that again. But I feel like now you are leading these shows, and because of that interaction, it's informed how you're treating not only you know your cast members and while you're working on the show, but like you said, the people at the stage door. And I I think it is so important to lead with kindness because of that, because we're consistently spreading it and it's contagious, but so is the other stuff. So we gotta lean into that.

[46:12] Rob McClure: Yeah. I love too that you just mentioned personal boundaries, which I think gets a bad rep because it feels like you're being mean, not that you are, but like just in general.

[46:24] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[46:25] Rob McClure: And I think there is a way to do that positively, especially for yourself. One of the hardest things to do, but the most important, I think, is to be kind to yourself, especially in this business. So when you're teaching these students, uh now that I've kind of given you a circuitous way of getting to my question, I don't even know if it makes sense.

[46:41] Robert Peterpaul: Not at all.

[46:42] Rob McClure: How do you how do you teach your students to be kind to themselves? Because that's something they don't teach in a lot of these institutes and classes. And then once you start auditioning, you realize that's your biggest hurdle man is not, oh, I look so ugly, oh that I sounded inauthentic. I I need another take, I need another take. It's so hard to get out of your own head.

[47:00] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[47:00] Rob McClure: I remember um my wife is an actress as well. She's brilliant. And there will be times where she gets down on herself, like we all do, right? You go on an audition, you don't get the thing, you start to beat yourself up. And I would find myself like yelling at her. And she's like, wait, but I don't what doesn't help is you then disciplining me for being down on myself. And I what I would say to her is A, I hear you, and I'm sorry, and Banyone else was saying to you what you're saying to yourself, I would be it would be hard for me to not rip them apart. Stop. We have enough people coming for us, or you know, there's enough valleys between the peaks. Do not be another negative voice in your life. You know what I mean? Like so I'm not yelling at you. I'm yelling at the person who is hurting my wife's feelings.

[48:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[48:04] Rob McClure: I love that's such a great shift. I I I and I I uh it doesn't mean that I shouldn't do it. I shouldn't do it. But I was but the point. The point is when I'm teaching these kids, do not be another voice in the void telling you you can't. You know what I mean? Like uh that doesn't mean you can't critique yourself, you can, but this voice that like anything that gets you down starts to get starts to inflate self-doubt or uh or uh um your value or your worth, you know. I try to I try to tell my students often you can be worthy of something while being not right for it. You have to maintain your worth, despite whether or not you were right for something, some things, or thousands of things. You can be worthy of those things and just not right for them, and that's okay.

It's when your worth starts to crumble as a result of those things you're not right for, that's um it's just not true. You know what I mean? It it um and now you being worthy of it is provided that you've studied, you've trained, you're being kind, you're prepared, you show up on time, all the things because then you might not be worthy. But if you but if you are putting in the the work, which most people who are in love with this do, yeah, uh then they then they are, you know. But it it is that thing where you know, try not to be your own critic, you know, try not to be your own voice in the back of the bus shitting on cats. Don't don't uh you know it's it's very hard. And and then also, you know, talking about being kind to yourself, one of the things I think these people who uh who rag on um boundaries, one of the things they don't understand is if I'm gonna sit here and talk to you all about kindness and how I how I'm rooted in kindness, but my wife who's home with my four-year-old and has been throughout the performance that night, who desperately wants me to get home from my show to tag out with the kid so she can make dinner or go do something she has to do, or or just because she's exhausted and needs a break, and I take two hours at the stage door to build up those folks, and I get home and I've abandoned my partner, or I wasn't there for bedtime for my kid, or I wasn't there to help make dinner for my kid, then what real what actual example of kindness am I? Yeah, so just understanding that people are trying not only to be kind to you, but to their partners, to their children, to their families, to their obligations, to their other things that they have going on, and people need to be able to uh to be kind in all aspects of those.

So, in an effort to be kind to someone else, I might have to say to you, Thank you so much, I have to run. And I would hope that if you're leading with kindness, you would go, like, totally, thanks for taking the time.

[51:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[51:04] Rob McClure: Um, but it's the people who think that uh a half an hour comes with their ticket price of after the show time that I then go, like, wait, uh you you don't get it. You don't get it. That there's we we have to be fully fleshed out human beings. I can't uh there are nights where I'm gonna have the time to sit and try and encourage you. Um, but there are gonna be times where I have other obligations, and I and I I would hope that people would recognize that.

[51:37] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I I think that goes back to to giving people the benefit of the doubt of you know, oh, this is a genuine person, he has somewhere to be, he has he has to go to his family. I mean, because we do for some reason always go to that negative. I mean, even with ourselves, it's like how many negative thoughts do we get in a day? First of all, how many things are we wrong about in our brains during the day? Why would we be right about the fact that we suck, you know, just statistically speaking? So it is kind of making friends with those thoughts and then just keeping that authenticity going. But you kind of brought up something that I really admire about you offstage, which is that you seem to have, and nobody has found this perfectly, I don't think, otherwise, they would have a best-selling book that we would all follow and probably not be able to actually replicate because it's subjective.

How have you found that balance between striking uh a fine balance between like your arts, your passion, but also your main passion and love, your family? Because I think that's something this industry isn't always so sympathetic to and doesn't allow. I mean, we have these huge weeks during the holidays, it's like there's 10 shows sometimes in a a week. Yeah, it's just it's great to see people that are doing that. And I know you even are able to kind of commute and go back to Pennsylvania to be with your family and kind of get out of the city, which is something I've always been drawn to. I mean, I live near the city, but in Connecticut, and I I like to kind of have that where I can go back to my normal life.

[52:05] Rob McClure: 100%. Yeah. So how how have you found that balance? I mean, I know it's probably a work in progress, but I'll be honest with you. I suck at that balance.

[53:01] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[53:02] Rob McClure: My wife is one of the most remarkable people I uh alive. And she is wonderful at um leading with grace in making me see when I say yes to everyone but her. Right? So we do we're taught in this business, right? Say yes. Say yes, don't make waves, say yes. And it's easy, it's easy when you graduate college and you have nowhere to be, right? You're 21, you're single, you just graduated, and hey, would you want to run spotlight for this community theater product? Yes, I'll learn how to I'll learn how to be a spot op. Hey, can you come direct the musical at your old high school for four years? Which I did, and it's some of the most valuable time in my life. Um, I think I learned more about storytelling at in theater as an art form from doing that because I would get to that high school that I was a substitute English teacher at the high school so that I could direct the plays at night.

Wow. I would get to that school at seven o'clock in the morning and I would leave at 11 o'clock at night. And it was my whole world, right? And then you start to build your life. You start to get a maybe a partner or partners. You start to have children or uh a kid. Obligation. You take people taking care of their parents. People were taking it, and all of a sudden you have a larger perspective, that cumulative perspective we were talking about, right? And someone like Maggie uh hears me or vice versa on the phone going, like, yes, I'll do that thing. Sure, I'll do that thing. Yes, I'll do that thing. Sure, I'll do that thing. And she goes, like, hey, when am I supposed to do the thing that I because we have a four-year-old, when am I supposed to do the thing?

And you realize, like, oh, part of being a good partner is saying yes to her. Part of being a good father is saying yes to Sadie. And maintaining that means saying no to this press opportunity, to this, to performing on this show, to doing this 54 Below. You know, you know how many 54 Below shows I would be a part of if I didn't have a chance. I can only imagine. We're celebrating the Muppets. We're celebrating Mel Brooks. We're celebrating that I would it'd be so fun. Yeah. But I need to say yes to Sadie. I need to say yes to Maggie. And Maggie has been such a force for good in my life in terms of um saying yes professionally is wonderful, but sometimes saying no professionally is what is needed to say yes personally, and and and that is a balance that I fully credit her with.

Uh and it doesn't mean it wasn't messy, it doesn't mean that there we both didn't screw up and and overbook ourselves and uh we deal with it every day. But we know what the target is, you know what I mean? We know we're much more vocal about what we need from each other now than we were in the beginning. Um, and that it's it is really, really I I don't claim to have it figured out, but when you have an amazing partner who uh who can hold up a mirror to you sometimes and go like I need help, or or I'm seeing you run yourself ragged.

[56:22] Rob McClure: You know what you need to do tomorrow? Sleep. And you go like, what's that? Yes, I do. You're right, I do. Yeah, um, you know, sometimes you need somebody who knows you more than you know yourself to be able to put an arm around your shoulder and go like you need to say no.

[56:40] Robert Peterpaul: Well, you're making me feel lucky because now I feel like I have found that you're reminding me of all the ways my wife does that for me, and awesome. It's such a hard thing. I mean, that was such wonderful, valuable advice, but it to me it stems right back to balance. I mean, people say find balance, and it's this ethereal entity that you don't know how to find, but it is kind of like you're saying yes to work, so then you should balance that out by saying yes to home. Every time my wife is my—she hates it, but my reader for a self-tape, it's like okay, I'm gonna say yes to then baking brownies with you after or going on a walk with or doing the laundry or whatever it is.

[57:15] Rob McClure: Yeah, that that's super helpful, and those are things again that we don't really necessarily get classes on, but are equally important because you can run yourself ragged, like you're saying. I totally want to respect your time and your boundaries. I just want to make sure we have time quickly to play a surprise game.

[57:28] Robert Peterpaul: I love it.

[57:33] Rob McClure: If you're down, yes, of course.

[57:34] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, cool. It's not much of a game, honestly, Rob, but it's called the compliment game.

[57:39] Rob McClure: Insert cheesy theme song.

[57:41] Robert Peterpaul: Everyone's beautiful in their own way. It's the compliments game on me.

[57:44] Rob McClure: Yay, okay. It's the compliment. Compliment, yeah. Yay! Mump. I love it. Oh, I might just keep that one, honestly, instead. Basically, because you haven't got enough compliments already, I reached out to somebody in your life who knows you for a compliment about you, or just like a quick kind of loving statement, but it had to be specific, so hopefully you can guess it. I'm gonna read you that statement. And this one came with specific instructions, so forgive me. And you just have to guess who said that. And I don't know much, but I'll try and give you hints. If you ask me yes or no questions, we'll say you get three guesses. People freak out if there's no rules, but there really are no rules. So I love this game. Okay, yay, okay. I'm gonna read this. And this person, when I say this person got right back to me, this person got right back to me in a second, which is so nice. Okay. Oh, I feel like it's about me because it says Rob.

[58:36] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[58:38] Rob McClure: Rob is so positive, kind, and giving. He always has time for people. If someone is in trouble, he goes out of his way to make sure they are okay. And it isn't in a performative way. He doesn't announce it. It is secret, and it's just who he is. He is so generous. I think his daughter might say too generous. Daddy, my college, please save some money for my college. That's it.

[59:05] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, it's said in a British accent for that part.

[59:08] Rob McClure: I am delighted to say that this is Carrie Butler.

[59:13] Robert Peterpaul: It is, it is the one and only Carrie Butler.

[59:15] Rob McClure: And I and a Broadway icon, as are you? Broadway icon, Carrie Butler. That is so unbelievably sweet of her to say. Um, she she too is somebody who like is uh under the radar kind. You know what I mean? Who is like subversively chipping away at cynicism?

[59:31] Robert Peterpaul: Oh.

[59:36] Rob McClure: Like she's really uh she's somebody who's like, hey, do you want some basil? And you go like, sure, where did you get basil? I'm growing it in my dressing room. Like, what? Yeah, my dressing room doesn't get great light. So I bought a lot of like vegetable things that will like grow veggies in my dressing room, but it also provides some light. And you're like, who are you, Butler? Um, she's like, oh yeah, and by the way, I uh I bought 10 different types of hot sauces, and I want you to come in my dressing room and we'll do like taste tests and have fun. She um she did an Easter egg hunt in the winter garden so anyone in the building who had children could bring their children to the theater to go on an Easter egg hunt on Easter morning before our matinee.

Like just magical. That's who we're dealing with. Um but she uh she what she's referring to was a time when uh we were in Washington, DC doing the out-of-town trial for Beetlejuice. And anytime uh so we will a group of us went to a casino outside of DC together. And anytime I was like at a poker table or a blackjack table or on a slot machine, Carrie Butler would come over, lean over my ear as the voice of my daughter saying, please daddy, don't gamble away my college money, please, daddy. Now, why does my daughter have a cockney accent? I'll never know. But now I that was the dead giveaway. But oh my goodness. To have her say that about me is uh means a lot because she is a prime example of that type of uh kindness, and she also is um kind of miraculously good at evading uh shady gossip.

You know what I mean? Anytime that anytime that energy is bubbling up in the building and people are enjoying it, and I think you know what I mean by that, where all of a sudden there's like juice, you know what I mean? Like, ooh, ooh, there's like tea.

[1:01:40] Robert Peterpaul: Hang on one second. I'm gonna myself throw up. I'm gonna need to make some of that throat coat tea after this.

[1:01:46] Rob McClure: Yeah, exactly. That's the only that's the only type of tea I'm interested in, frankly. Um, but the like, ooh, there's some tea, uh, and everybody goes like Carrie's like, I'm gonna go get some tomatoes from my dressing room, like just not interested in fueling that. You know what I mean? And I think that is such a valuable, um such a valuable thing, you know, like the notion that if if Gary Sinise had come out of that theater and said what most college professors say, which is it's really hard, it's probably impossible, you're five foot seven, you're too short, you're safe, you you should probably go to the gym. You should probably get a voice teacher and try and be a tenor because they're only interested in people who can belt bees.

You should um uh the odds of this are really against you. So you should have uh free backup plans. You should uh stop moving your face, put your eyebrows down, stop moving your face, uh don't move your hands. If there's anything else in your life that makes you happy, do that because this is not gonna work out for you. And even if it does, it's such a crazy road that you're gonna hate it, you're not gonna know how to pay your bills, you're not gonna know how to, you know, you if he had said that, if he or if he had said, you know what was happening backstage today, there's a stage manager who's hooking up with a such and such, and it's such a mess. These people are so dramatic, and these people and and it's a it's just like high school, and they all gossip about each other, and the cast hates the crew and the crew hates the cast. I would have run screaming in any other direction.

[1:03:26] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:03:26] Rob McClure: But what Gary Sneeze said is, do you love it? Yeah, then you'll figure it out. And you go like, wait. So when you get into that theater, and I know that there are 15-year-old Beetlejuice fans waiting at the stage door, going, you know what must be inside that stage door? Fucking paradise. And we're back there subversively shitting on each other. Which is not uh I will I will say Beetlejuice was a super healthy environment. I'm just using it as an example. But when anytime we lean into the the, you know, um cutting anybody else down, even if it's another show, right? Oh, we oh here's such and such is closing. It's about time. How does that thing stay open? Business is hard enough. You know, it's hard enough without enjoying cutting each other down.

And uh Carrie is a prime example of somebody who just doesn't subscribe to it. Just just and doesn't also won't be like, you're all jerks, I can't stand that you do that. Yeah, just removes yourself. And in doing so, makes a louder statement than people who scream into the void.

[1:04:37] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, and actually preaching about it. I mean, you're so right, and it is kind of sad. I mean, we had somebody here, we had some friends over recently, and when everyone was leaving, they just said, That was so fun, and we didn't even gossip, and there was nothing negative, and I thought Interesting. Wow, why would there? Is that what we're used to? I don't know what was going on, but it it is a uh something you're taught to do, and I guess it's from school or whatever it is. And it's hard to lean out of that. But you just made me think of a weird idea, which is like, while the stage door is closed, what about what if we get like ring doorbell? We pop a ring doorbell on the theater doors, and all these kids and people that are excited to see the show or just saw it can go up and leave you guys messages.

Someone monitors it's these positive messages where once a week you're watching and you're kind of reminded the whole point of of what we're doing because you really hit the nail on the head when describing an audience experience, which is someone sitting there. First of all, someone's first show for the first time always, and it's someone's probably last show for the last time.

[1:05:35] Rob McClure: Yeah, which is redundant, but they're sitting there saying it must be so magical back there. It must be paradise. They're flying through trapdoors and and all this stuff. And then we're like burping off stage, just had lunch, and we're like, oh, gotta do another one, or whatever it is.

[1:05:48] Robert Peterpaul: That's it. That is that is the very root of um why I choose to stay positive, right? Because it might be my 380th performance of a show, right? A you should be so lucky that the show ran 380 performances. But like, let's say it's your 380th show, right? You've done this show 380 times, probably 60 times out of town, two workshops, it's been three and a half years of your life. Um, and you're showing up for the one o'clock Sunday matinee that week. Here we go. It's the early matinee, it's an eight show week, it's a holiday week, it's my ninth show of the week, whatever it is, right? And running concurrent to that moment for you is a 14-year old girl from Wichita who heard the Beetlejuice soundtrack on TikTok, fell madly in love with musical theater, bought the album, has knows every syllable of that album in the basement, whose father heard her sing the songs in her room.

So he saved $1,800 to be able to fly that family of five to New York City, get a hotel room, go to the theater, bring them to lunch, go eat out. They probably are gonna go visit Radio City. They walk through Central Park. This girl's life is about to be shattered in the best way possible. Every expectation of what is possible in her life and the things that she loves is about to explode in front of her in her first Broadway show of this thing that she knows every syllable to. And meanwhile, we're in the wings going, here we go again. It means that you have completely lost track of what it is we're doing. You know what I mean? And you are only seeing it through the singular lens of your uh uh lost perspective.

[1:07:44] Rob McClure: And uh, and if I can remember at every show is that family who scraped together the money to be able to come see the show, probably because one person there in that group is desperate to see it. You know what I mean? They might have brought people who were like, sure, I'll go see that. But the person who was like, can we buy tickets to that thing? Usually needs to see it, right? And and uh, you know, uh John Baptiste, who was the band leader for Stephen Colbert, is now a big Oscar winning composer, brilliant musician, one of my favorite people alive, also somebody rooted in kindness. Um he said in his Grammy speech recently, it might have been his Oscar speech, but he said, um, you know, crit criticism is one thing, and it's uh it it's invalidated because when you make art, it tends to find the people who need it most in that moment.

Um, and that's the thing where like you're in these shows that get a bad review, get a bunch of bad reviews, do run long, don't run long. But the people who needed it found it while it was there. Because I've been that person at shows that have run two weeks and at shows that have run 10 years, right?

[1:08:55] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, yeah.

[1:08:56] Rob McClure: Um, and uh just trying to trying to see that afternoon of that one o'clock Sunday matinee through the eyes of that girl and that father who saved the money for that little girl to see the show makes you thrilled to provide that kid with that experience if you can tap into your when you were that person.

[1:09:19] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[1:09:20] Rob McClure: Um, and it's the uh the lack of gratitude or the lost perspective that I think is when that starts to crumble away.

[1:09:27] Robert Peterpaul: You're so right, because these perspectives and experiences, they're parallel, and and you're never gonna be in somebody else's experience, but you can, I mean, across the board in life validate it. And so even if you're up there and you guys are thinking of your groceries that you're gonna buy while you're just in the the Chuck E. Cheese robotic pattern of doing the show, which can happen when you do something that many times, honestly, that person still, you're gonna see them and and they didn't know any different, and and they loved it. And it's just making sure in that moment we're validating it. I mean, I just did this workshop of something, they invited our family to come. My sister, my wife, people were there.

We all went to dinner after, and then the task, these people are sitting around shit talking the producer, the director, how it sucked, and they're like, that was great. I loved it. I mean, it it's just reframing that, like you're saying, is incredibly important because it does it becomes that that business, and and you forget each audience member, each person has a story and got their own.

[1:10:23] Rob McClure: And that doesn't mean that you're not sitting around brainstorming on how things could be better, right? That doesn't mean that I go into a rehearsal process and I go, like, hey, I feel like that beat. We might be able to do X or like, or hey, um, stage management. I think we were supposed to take a five like 10 minutes ago. Did we not take a five? Oh, yeah, you're right, we're gonna take a five. It doesn't mean that you're constantly allowing yourself to be bowled over and being taken advantage of. That's not what I'm talking about either. But what I mean is at the end of the day, hey, we were supposed to take a five ten minutes ago so that I can go run and have a snack and go to the bathroom and continue to come back here and do the thing I dreamt of doing every day of my life that you have given me the opportunity to do.

Those things we're living in a culture right now that does not allow for mutual truths. We don't allow for the fact that you can be grateful to be somewhere and want it to be better. We don't live in thoughtful debate is not of interest at the moment.

[1:11:27] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, right.

[1:11:27] Rob McClure: It's one liner quips or takedowns, or uh whoever can make their point irrefutably in 160 characters wins. Like and and the answer is in thoughtful debate. The answer is the answers are in mutual truths. Um, it's just a it's a fascinating thing, and and I hope that that as conversation and debate goes on, people will allow for gray areas because the answers are in there.

[1:11:58] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, living in the gray, that's what I always strive to do because it's for some reason in the society, black or white. We have so many communities, which is great. I mean, we have our artists community, actors. We have these things where we check a box that we're in this group, but then that also can be very divisive because everyone's in these separate groups and they can paint one a certain way and whatever it is, which is why I admire you, because again, I think you took this kind of like straight male in musical theater, whatever persona has to play these certain parts and made it this like more sensitive, funny, quirky new situation that I could kind of look up to and and see myself in. And I admire you for that.

[1:12:34] Rob McClure: And so many reasons. I also, speaking of respecting boundaries, have to let you go because I I've gone a little bit over time, but my my wife took Sadie to the library, so I'm okay on time. A magical place, honestly, for stories, and I might want to go there after this, but I would just love if you could leave us with a tangible kindness tip or something that you think each listener could do just to spread kindness into their own circle and and life.

[1:13:02] Rob McClure: When someone does something that moves you in a positive way, pull them aside privately and tell them. It seems like such a um, I cannot tell you what it does for someone if you are in a rehearsal, if you're at the grocery store, if you're somewhere, and you observe someone do something, even if it was like, you know, you see a teenage boy and and and someone at the grocery store drops something and he runs over and picks it up and gives it to her. It's startling to have somebody go, hey man that was cool that person might not even thought twice so I just pr gave that person that thing but having someone go like um I just saw your heart hey I just so you know I just saw your heart and you go like I didn't even know that I I didn't even recognize that I had done something kind or that I had done something in the case of rehearsal going up to somebody after they vulnerably sing their ballad for the first time in front of everyone we all assume that they know they did a good job or they're in this business they know but do you know what it does for somebody who like over lunch break in the in the rehearsal room where you go like I was that was extraordinary.

[1:14:34] Robert Peterpaul: Even if they roll their eyes, right?

[1:14:36] Rob McClure: Even if they go like I'm working on it. That got in. Yeah. They how they deal with it getting in might be them going which a lot of people that's how they deal with kindness, right?

[1:14:48] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:14:48] Rob McClure: You look amazing today. That's how but it still gets in. Yeah then a day later they text you or that night they're like I just want to know you to know like that really did make my day. You know?

[1:15:01] Rob McClure: Yeah I I like going up to uh you know I remember you know Jerry Zach would be directing a moment and there somebody would be having there there'd be like the brink of a confrontation and see him like tactfully say the right thing to to spell that thing. Mm-hmm and then going up to him later and going like I just observed what you did to like put a band-aid on that moment and tactfully keep the ball moving forward. That was impressive.

[1:15:32] Robert Peterpaul: And they go like they might laugh it off. They might go like I didn't know you noticed that, you know.

[1:15:36] Rob McClure: I run here's a here's a good example. When we were uh I was teching a show and there was a kid in the show, and uh the kid was like just we were standing around in tech, and uh and the kid was like, Wow, this is taking a long time. And I said, Hey, do you want to know what's taking a long time? And he was like, What? I was like, Behind that light board, which you can't see in the dark, is Phil Rosenberg, who is like an award-winning lighting designer who is trying to figure out how to light you on a Broadway stage. And you see the kid go like, Well, I feel special. What I didn't know is that fill heard me because I'm mic'd and but wasn't in the house, but it was in their headsets.

[1:16:22] Rob McClure: So Phil comes up to me on the dinner break and goes, like, you reminded me of who I am and what I do for a living. And it just was it was something that lifted me up in a way I didn't know that I needed. But it's those moments where like just taking a second and not shouting from the rooftop, not going online and saying like you are the most amazing thing. It's not about that.

[1:16:44] Rob McClure: It's uh it's about uh although I'm at Rob Peter Paul, if anyone wants to tag me in and some kind of post like that. If uh if likes or follows is the intention of the compliment, it's not a compliment. But the but the uh it's in those pri quiet moments, it's in those private moments where even if somebody rolls their eyes or or lets this compliment fall off their shoulder, y you they heard you and uh and what it can do for someone, uh you don't know.

[1:17:11] Rob McClure: And you don't know how much they need that that day. I've I've said something to somebody and they said, Really? I feel like I am phoning it in today because my cat is sick and we took it to the vet this morning and I'm just scraping by, but thank you for letting me know that my ability to compartmentalize in that moment was working. Because it because it didn't feel like it was. So thank you.

[1:17:33] Robert Peterpaul: You know what I mean?

[1:17:34] Rob McClure: Like so important.

[1:17:36] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's it's a it's so simple.

[1:17:38] Rob McClure: It's so simple, but talk.

[1:17:39] Robert Peterpaul: It is simple.

[1:17:39] Rob McClure: And it's even simpler than what we do, which is in a lot of these rehearsal rooms, and as you kind of progress and go into different rooms, you you find like you said, people just assume that the people know they're there because they're talented or they got the role because they're talented.

[1:17:53] Robert Peterpaul: And you can read as green when you're like, I'm a fan, I think you're wonderful, whatever it is.

[1:17:57] Rob McClure: But then we take the time in these rooms when something goes wrong and we we feed that to fix it. So when something's really beautiful and is right, why can't we take the second to just say, I'm vocally gonna tell you that you're wonderful any or or whatever, text them later and whatever it is, because it's usually totally, it's usually because we are uh theater has a certain amount of urgency.

[1:18:17] Rob McClure: And actually, any of these the theater, TV, film, all of those atmospheres create a time as money atmosphere. Right? And part of the time is money atmosphere is no news is good news.

[1:18:24] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:18:28] Rob McClure: No no news is good news unless unless I come over to you and and tell you that there's a problem, assume you're doing great. And it's not that we all need validation every two seconds, right? We don't need the director going, that was perfect. Yeah, but somebody leaning over and going, like, your taps are so clean.

[1:18:44] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, can make somebody's day, you know?

[1:18:47] Rob McClure: Um and because you mean it. Not because you noticed it and you mean it, not because um you're trying to be some like force for good. It's just it's just uh you you thought it so why not let them know? And it c it trains you over time in a way to just see more positive things too as a person and have a happier life.

[1:19:10] Robert Peterpaul: Totally instead of just announcing all the negative things that go wrong, like, oh right before I came on here, my computer fell down and I couldn't plug in my ring light, like my ring light broke. You know, it's it's like I get to talk to one of my idols, you know, kind of just retraining that is an important thing.

[1:19:26] Rob McClure: It uh well and also I mean, not to get into a cyclical loop here, but you casually throwing out that me being one of your idols, I might go like, oh my god, that's crazy, but I heard it. And it's uh it's humbling. It's humbling in it it does the opposite of give me a big head. It makes me go like that's crazy to me because I I still feel like I'm climbing.

[1:19:44] Rob McClure: I still feel like I'm climbing. There are days I feel like I'm drowning. There are days where I feel like I so, you know, that I have no idea what I'm doing. So the fact that anyone from afar is going like, that's cool. You don't you don't know it. And then somebody says it to you, and you go, like, A, wow, I I need to earn that. I need to, I need to maintain whatever it is that they see in me that's that brings them joy or or inspiration or validity or whatever it is, validation.

[1:20:22] Rob McClure: Um but it also just feels nice. It just genuinely feels nice. And I feel like uh Jen Kalella was one of those people in my life who just voiced compliments, would just uh uh we first worked together in a workshop of chaplain, and she would just uh to anybody about anything, she would just voice the instinct.

[1:20:45] Rob McClure: Um that I saw what it would do for people, you know. Um I've also seen on the flip side of that, I've seen the people who are like so nice, so nice, so and then the door closes on someone and they start to rag on that person.

[1:21:00] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:21:00] Rob McClure: And then they do it to somebody else, they do it to somebody else, and then you notice that they are nothing but sugar and sweet to you.

[1:21:08] Robert Peterpaul: Mm-hmm.

[1:21:09] Rob McClure: So I have no reason to believe that when the door closes, you don't do that to me too.

[1:21:13] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:21:13] Rob McClure: So while you while you might think that you are maintaining the illusions for someone because you've never treated them poorly, people are watching how you treat other people and assume that that continues about them when when they're not around.

[1:21:29] Robert Peterpaul: So the the ongoing conflation of your behavior, regardless of who it's targeted at, it it ripples out in more ways than you realize, positive or negative.

[1:21:39] Rob McClure: No, you're so right. And you're reminding me too, the only thing that's useful for, like that fake put on niceness, is sometimes you fall into a rut with the people you take for granted that you live with and that can always see your true self and that are always seeing how you really feel and how this sucks and that sucks. Maybe you could sometimes tap into that little color with your paintbrush and and paint that on to say, Oh, I'm actually gonna give you the same grace today that I just gave the person at the grocery store on my fake smile for because you know, so I I think so many things you just said were wonderful.

[1:22:11] Robert Peterpaul: I could talk to you for like 10 more hours, but I'm gonna let you go.

[1:22:13] Rob McClure: And I I really just appreciate you coming here with an open heart.

[1:22:17] Robert Peterpaul: And it they say don't meet your idols, but if it's Rob McClure, I think you're safe doing that because honestly, man, you're just you're not only good as a talent, but you seem to be such a good person.

[1:22:29] Rob McClure: And I I wish there were more people we could look up to, like you in the industry.

[1:22:33] Robert Peterpaul: And I know there are people, but just by being yourself and leading with kindness, you're doing your part to change our business for the better. So thank you, sir.

[1:22:41] Rob McClure: It's my pleasure.

[1:22:43] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, this was great. I'll keep you posted when it comes out, and uh best to your fam.

[1:22:48] Rob McClure: Thank you.

[1:22:48] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you for these kind words.

[1:22:49] Rob McClure: Thank you.

[1:22:50] Robert Peterpaul: Bye.

[1:22:50] Rob McClure: More soon.

[1:22:51] Robert Peterpaul: Bye-bye.

[1:22:56] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week. For the record friends, I support the Writers' Guild of America's Writer's Strike. In the coming weeks, I'm doing my best to have on some incredible writers and showrunners to discuss their careers, kindness, and the strike. If you're wondering what the strike really boils down to is paying these creatives what they're worth. The existing contract that they've been working under was created before the explosion of streaming content, and it needs to be updated. The way it's set up right now, writers on some of our favorite TV shows don't earn enough to support themselves for a full year. We're going to get more into this together, but for your kindest tip of the week, please head to WGA.org to learn more.

[1:23:47] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you as always for tuning in, dear listeners. I'm sending nothing but love your way. Until next time, please remember everything is going to be a-okay.