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[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the sky a better place to be.

[0:21] Robert Peterpaul: I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for that marvelous introduction. Hello everyone! Today is a wickedly wonderful day. I don't even know what to say. Oh, I'm kind of rambling now. I have a guest that's been, and I'm not even exaggerating here, about three decades in the making. He worked on one of my favorite films of all time, and I'm just bursting at the seams! Seriously, I did not even hide my inner witch. We had the most amazing chat, and I won't keep dawdling. Let's cut to the chase. Mount those broomsticks, because here we go.

[1:20] Robert Peterpaul: Today's guest is the iconic producer, screenwriter, illustrator, and all-around creative mastermind David Kirschner. His career is like the perfect trick-or-treat bag, brimming with a plethora of treats. It's going to be hard to condense it here, but I'll try my best. Though when you speak to Kirschner, you feel like his origin must have been from a pumpkin patch or graveyard in the hallowed grounds of Salem. He's actually a Los Angeles native. David began his illustrious career as an illustrator for Jim Henson's Muppet and Sesame Street characters. Sorry, I couldn't resist. If this is your first time listening, by the way, you're in for a real weird time. David also created art for prolific talents like Neil Diamond.

[2:08] Robert Peterpaul: At 23, he wrote and illustrated a series of children's books entitled Rose Petal Place. Success really struck like lightning in 1986 when Kirschner created and executive produced An American Tail alongside Steven Spielberg, which went on to become the highest-grossing non-Disney animated feature of all time and spawned several sequels and even a TV spinoff. In 1989, Kirschner was appointed the chairman of Hanna-Barbera Productions, where he worked on countless iconic properties from The Addams Family to The Flintstones to The Pagemaster, which I love. You may also know him as the creator of Chucky, the insidious doll that has been terrorizing viewers across a hit franchise of slasher films and most recently a television series for a very long time. Currently, he is the head of his own production company, aptly named David Kirschner Productions.

[3:04] Robert Peterpaul: Here are some other highlights along the way of his producing that I really want to mention: the Golden Globe-nominated film Miss Potter, starring Renée Zellweger, The Curious George franchise, ah! And an animated special of Ray Bradbury's legendary book, The Halloween Tree, which is very close to his heart. Speaking of Halloween, we are of course here today to focus on one of the particularly glorious stories that was plucked from the patch of David's spooktacular mind, Hocus Pocus. David first conjured up the idea for three evil witches vying to suck the life out of children as a bedtime story for his own kids. As magic so often does, it seemingly took on a life of its own.

[3:55] Robert Peterpaul: As fate would have it, David got a meeting at Disney's, where he turned the entire boardroom into a Halloween haven, decorating the walls and spilling candy across the table. Disney was smitten. And Hocus Pocus was a go. Add Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Kathy Najimy into the mix as the three witches, and a dream becomes a reality. Though the film wasn't originally a box office success, the Sanderson sisters wove their spell over audiences as time passed. Almost three decades later, Hocus Pocus is a cult classic, and there's a sequel on the way. That's right, Hocus Pocus 2 soars onto Disney's Plus on September 30th, with all three witches reprising their roles.

[4:49] Robert Peterpaul: Ahead of the sequel, David so graciously talked with me about the kindness he felt while making the original and then the sequel, as he zoomed in from his otherworldly office. He showed me the original Black Flame Candle, Winnie's spell book, BOOOOOOOOK, and above all else, kindness. I seriously cannot stress how kind David is. During the interview, it somehow came up, I think because Hocus Pocus is all about sibling love and dynamics, that I lost my own brother Thomas to cancer on September 11th at 9:11 p.m. when he was 11. A lot of weird coincidences there. And I felt so comfortable with David that I just shared that with him as I have shared on the podcast a little bit. And he so kindly listened, asked questions.

[5:36] Robert Peterpaul: And then weeks later, after we recorded the interview, when September 11th came around this year, he called me up and said he was thinking of me and my family. I mean, words cannot express how much that means to me. I mean, it makes me emotional because this is my favorite movie ever, and the creator of that movie, all these years later, is thinking of me and my family, and my brother who I used to watch the movie with. And now I'm recording this episode on my brother's birthday weekend. It was just written in the stars, I guess. I feel so grateful to have made a friend in this kindred spirit. And speaking of kindred spirits, I would love to connect with all of you online at Art of Kindness Pod and at Robert Peterpaul on Instagram. Let's form a kindness community. Now, without further ado, please enjoy part one of our glorious interview with the delightful David Kirschner.

[6:47] Robert Peterpaul: David!

[6:49] David Kirschner: Okay, you can see me and hear me.

[6:51] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, I can see you and hear you. So nice to see you in person.

[6:55] David Kirschner: Can you see me?

[6:56] Robert Peterpaul: I can. And look at that shirt. That's a great message. That's fantastic. It's amazing.

[7:02] David Kirschner: Can you see the Billy Butcherson over my shoulder, sort of?

[7:05] Robert Peterpaul: I can look at that. Right next to the Hocus Pocus poster.

[7:08] David Kirschner: Yeah, he's about six feet, and he's a perfect representation of Doug.

[7:13] Robert Peterpaul: Is that just a candle or a black flame candle there to your left?

[7:17] David Kirschner: Oh, I call this my black flame candle, but it's actually from my grandma, and it is not a black flame candle. It's just a candle that has the world printed on it, so it has like this beautiful detail.

[7:28] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, it's so much more than the black flame candle, and the fact that it was your grandmother's. Wow.

[7:34] David Kirschner: I know, so it's really special to me. So I haven't actually lit it just because of that, but I do have a Hocus Pocus 2 candle right here.

[7:41] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, oh, I didn't see that. Look at that. It's the new line from Goose Creek.

[7:46] David Kirschner: Oh my god. Oh, look at that.

[7:48] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[7:49] David Kirschner: And Kathy Najimy in the bottom of her feet. I don't know if you can tell what that is.

[7:53] Robert Peterpaul: They're Roombas.

[7:54] David Kirschner: Trying to up the vacuum cleaner and bring it forward 29 years. So these, she calls them the twins, and they follow her around everywhere.

[8:05] Robert Peterpaul: It's so cute. I'm so excited for that. And there's a—I shouldn't give this away, but there's a great scene where the kids pour salt around themselves to protect them from witches because that's our mythology. And what the witches are stuck in this circle, and what do we do? What do we do? And all of a sudden the twins come bursting in and vacuum up the salt.

[8:29] David Kirschner: Oh, that is so good.

[8:31] Robert Peterpaul: Really? I'm actually engaged, we're getting married, and someone just sent off our registry a Roomba. So we just got one. Her name is Ruby.

[8:36] David Kirschner: Oh, congratulations, by the way, on that. That's very exciting.

[8:41] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you very much. So I've become well versed with Roombas, and they have a mind of their own.

[8:47] David Kirschner: I really don't know anything about them except I just thought, and I did my original drawing, and my original drawing just had one, and Jen, who wrote the screenplay, came up with such a better idea, and that is to create two and make them the twins, and I just love that.

[9:05] Robert Peterpaul: Wow. So did you come up with the poster, the artwork that's out there right now?

[9:08] David Kirschner: No, no, no. That's not my artwork, that's Disney's artwork. I honestly, the—not that one that you just showed me that has the—on the candle. I love that piece of art. There's another piece of art of the girls, and it's just a bit heavily airbrushed for my taste. It just looks more Vogue-ish than it does Hocus Pocus-ish.

[9:34] Robert Peterpaul: Okay. No, I love that. And I want to get into everything Hocus Pocus.

[9:38] David Kirschner: Okay, we'll do it. I'm gonna do a really long, glowing intro about you because I'm such a huge fan of you and I feel so honored to have you here today, but I won't make you sit here while I do that. So we can just kind of dive in. But I do want to make you sit here while I just say it just feels like such magic to have you right now and so surreal. So I'm so honored again that you agreed to do this because Hocus Pocus is my favorite movie of all time. It wove such a magical spell over my childhood.

[10:04] Robert Peterpaul: I draw too, and I used to just trace the cover of the VHS over and over again so I could memorize each curve and kind of do it on my own perfectly.

[10:13] David Kirschner: Oh, that gave me chills.

[10:15] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, well, I really did. I would sit in the basement and do that, and then I also memorized the entire movie. I feel compelled to tell you that as we all do with our families, we all kind of have these roller coaster lives, but even today, Hocus Pocus is just always something that unites us in the funniest ways. I mean, we'll have these like hyper outbursts where we're like twist the bones and bend the back and flying around the house. Not even during Halloween time. So I just—I can't put into words how much the movie means to me and how it's sort of become knit into my family's fabric. And I just wanted to compliment you in that regard. But I could compliment you this whole time.

[10:50] Robert Peterpaul: So I will give myself the cane and shut up. How old were you the first time you saw it?

[10:59] David Kirschner: The first time I saw Hocus Pocus? So it was released to age myself two years after I was born. So 1993, I was born in 1991. And I feel like I went to the theaters to see it, which I don't think could be accurate, unless my parents took me as a baby. But I do remember having the VHS in my room, and I played it so many times that it broke. So we had to get a new one. And then because of that movie, I used to go to the video store, and it was before computers, so they would pull out this huge book, and I would say, "What's the latest Bette Midler movie? What's the latest Sarah Jessica Parker movie?" And they would have to pull out the book and look, just because of that movie, I became so infatuated.

[11:37] David Kirschner: Isn't—oh yeah, I love that.

[11:39] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I'm glad it's not too much, but I did feel the need to tell you that. And I guess it kind of ties into kindness for me because as artists and people in the entertainment industry, we get so many compliments. So I would love to know for you, how are you at taking compliments? Is that something that—

[11:54] David Kirschner: Horrible.

[11:56] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[11:57] David Kirschner: Horrible. Yeah, no, we're actually having a screening of the film for family and friends on the 28th, I think. And I'm already feeling in the pit of my stomach that afterwards, because I've been through this so many times, I'm always so uncomfortable when people come up and say something nice. Terrible. I need to get over it, but I just feel—I feel like they feel like there's a gun to their head that they have to say something nice. And I, you know, I'm a shy person.

[12:33] David Kirschner: Um, I'm uh I think at times I make my wife crazy. Like right now, from September on, she wears a Hocus Pocus purse. Oh, and wherever you go, people say, oh my god, I love that movie. I mean, it's wonderful to hear. And Liz will kind of elbow me and say, tell them, tell them that you did it. And I'm I I won't because I I it just I just get uncomfortable with it. And I believe me, I love I love that you love it so much. I love hearing what people have to say. It just makes me so happy. But there are also so many other people that made this movie so great, starting with Kenny Ortega, who directed it and just added so much fun stuff to it that I had never thought of. Um, John Debney's score just elevates the movie that much more, and he wrote it in two weeks.

Wow. Uh, you know, I so it's it's weird. I would rather just go on and on about those people than specifically myself, but I will answer anything that you that you throw at me and tell you uh the history of anything that you would like to know about it and uh and the kindness that existed on that set to to get back to the foundation of of your podcast. It was a very special shoot.

[13:53] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, I I do want to get into all that, and I want to talk about Hocus Pocus 2 because I know that's what's coming out and what everyone's so excited for. So I want to kind of dive into all that through the lens of kindness, but to start there, and before we get into our questions, and I have a few little surprises embedded because I always kind of like to do something a little spectacular. So I would love to know for you what does kindness mean to you if you had to define it.

[14:18] David Kirschner: It means everything to me. I'm a highly sensitive person. What about the one uh with what's her face? In the arms of the angel, the one with the dog with Sarah McLaughlin. That's that doesn't exist in this house because the second that goes on with that music, both Lizzie and I we run for the remote, whether we're out with the gym or or we're just in bed watching TV. I we really can't do it.

[14:46] Robert Peterpaul: Me too.

[14:47] David Kirschner: I mean, we're so involved in so many animal organizations. But I I like we have two pups that came to us right before the pandemic that we adopted from Tijuana, the brother and sister, they're inseparable. And before I came into my office to talk to you, I I was just loving them. And it just they're so kind, and they give me, as I've said to Lizzie, my wife, they just I I know that they've added years to my life with just the fact that I look at them and what life could have been like on the streets of Tijuana, and and that they're on our bed right now in the air-conditioned house with a fan blowing on them. And they're just they're so wonderfully spoiled, and uh and we love it. Um, but to answer your question, kindness, um, you know, it it is it's something that I do my very best to always be thankful to people, um, especially service people.

Um, I I just it's it's just something that uh I don't know. I just I would feel like a rotten person if I didn't even say thank you or how are you or you know, I hope you have a good day. I I'm in a business where a lot of people are not kind, and I'm not sure if it's nurture or nature. Um there's a lot of people that are pretty cutthroat and uh and there's lots of egos, and I've always loved just kind of doing my job and coming home because I I just didn't fit into that.

[16:25] Robert Peterpaul: And um, sorry this is a good thing.

[16:27] David Kirschner: No, the dogs are making a cameo. They heard us talking about them, so they wanted to be involved.

[16:31] Robert Peterpaul: We conjured them.

[16:34] David Kirschner: We conjured them. Um, so I you know, uh I mean, look, to talk about oh, I'm such a kind person just sounds so egocentric, but um, I I mean I think other people would have to answer that question. Um probably the best witness I would bring forward is is my my dear best friend wife, partner uh of we've been together, well, married 45 years and together 47 years, and we were three years before that when we were 16 on an archaeological dig in the negative desert, and um have been inseparable since. And um what a cool story. I mean, she's she's the most amazing soul in the world and the kindest soul in the world. And uh yeah, we were just you know, 21 when we were married, and all these years later, you know, it's just uh children that are grown and grandchildren that are teenagers, and it's it's it's a rich and wonderful life.

[17:42] Robert Peterpaul: That's so beautiful, and I find that too when you have that kindred spirit, which even the word kindred has kind in it, like I have with my fiance, you have with your wife, it kind of tethers you in this crazy business. I mean, just as I'm, you know, auditioning and trying to to build my little path, it's like people don't always trust that you're genuine if you're kind, because there is such a stigma.

[18:03] David Kirschner: It's true.

[18:04] Robert Peterpaul: I I mean, I will tell you, I mean, we're because I love kids. Our my cousin brought a little boy over here yesterday with his grandmother, and this kid just blew me away. He was just so full of curiosity and passion for for my office and it was obsessed with my Chucky character. And I I got such a wonderful feeling of spending time with this kid. But when you say people often misread kindness, I've as if I'm with Liz, it's a different story. But these days, if I'm just a man by himself, and I see a a cute kid or a cute dog, and I always want to say something to somebody because I think it makes them feel good.

[18:50] David Kirschner: Yeah.

[18:50] Robert Peterpaul: But these days in the world that we live in, I've I've pulled back unless I'm with Liz, because a lot of people think, you know, what is your motivation? Why why are you talking to me? Why are you saying that about my child?

[19:02] David Kirschner: Yeah.

[19:02] Robert Peterpaul: You know, and it's just like, I mean, it's sad because once upon a time you could just just say, Oh, you know, oh, your your kid is so cute, and how old? And uh just all my grandfather's stuff that I I just love. But it's it's very uh, yeah, we live in a world where an and for good reason people are suspect because you know, there's a lot of bad things that happen in this world with very bad and evil people.

[19:28] David Kirschner: Yeah.

[19:29] Robert Peterpaul: So it's uh it's yeah, it's a changing world, and it and it frightens me for my my grandchildren's future, honestly. I know of people that are just not as kind as they they need to be.

[19:42] David Kirschner: Yeah, I mean, those are the things that go bump in the night, I think. That's the that's the real frightening thing about the world, not the the ghouls and the goblins. Uh that I mean what you what you just I'm sorry, what you just touched on, that means a great deal to me because um I once did a film called Frailty uh with Matthew McConaughey and uh and Bill Paxson, and Bill Paxson directed it. And um Bill and I kind of came to heads over the fact that there are bad people in this.

[20:14] David Kirschner: And when dad takes off his gloves and God is speaking to him, and he puts he lays hand upon these evil people, he sees their their sins in the story. And what Bill wanted was for the the people when he sees them for what they are to be creatures with horrible teeth and horns. And I said, No, the the monsters that exist are are not those kind of creatures from from uh a Ray Harryhausen movie or some scary movie. They don't look like Chucky or Freddie or or Jason. They look like us, and that's what's scary, because that's what's out there. The the Jeffrey Dahmer's and Charles Mansons of the world. They they're out there and they're just wearing exactly what we're wearing. They're no faces, no horns, no crazy teeth.

[21:06] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[21:06] David Kirschner: So yes, I I agree with your point.

[21:08] Robert Peterpaul: Well, maybe not my black flame candle shirt. They might not be wearing that, but who knows?

[21:12] David Kirschner: But I I think it it's true too, even with Hocus Pocus, because the Sanderson sisters, I mean, they look like everyone else at the beginning of the film. I mean, for me, they're ostracized, and so I'm sure it was humanity that over time probably caused them to be evil, which hopefully we find out a little bit more about in the sequel. But I do see kindness as something that drives your stories because it's like the kindness of Emily, the child at the beginning of the film, trusting these adults and following them into the house that kind of like propels the story. And for you, if I can so label it, I just feel like all of your work across the board has such a romanticism.

[21:48] David Kirschner: As a fellow romantic, I I see that you kind of romanticize things like Halloween and things that aren't typically romantic. And so I was really curious where you think that maybe comes from.

[21:59] David Kirschner: If you agree with me, you could say, no, I don't do that, but no, I I feel like you've you've you've so hit me right on on the head. I I do love that. I uh as I said, I love kids, and almost every film that I've ever done is an exploration of childhood in some form. I'm an armchair adventurer, I've never hunted witches or or had a doll come to life, or et cetera, et cetera. But you know, whether it's Curious George, who's a little kid or my first film, um an American tale about a little a little uh immigrant mouse who's washed over on a ship and arrives in America looking for his family who think have died. I just love exploring childhood and the kindness of of their their innocent souls and the love, the love that they have for their families. And sometimes I twist that in knots and whatever to get there, but I I it's it's a world that I truly love and no, you you got me dead on with that one.

[23:03] Robert Peterpaul: Well, I love that too. That's probably why I love so many of your films and your work and you know the cartoons and all this stuff that you do. But even just as you're talking now, it's like Hocus Pocus, I believe, started as not an exploration of childhood, but a bedtime story, right? A story for your kids.

[23:17] David Kirschner: I even think to myself, oh, the Sanderson sisters, is it like like the sand man? Like you were trying to make them fall asleep. I don't know. I make up things in my mind.

[23:25] David Kirschner: But I no, uh no, God, some of your questions are so good, and no one has ever asked me that. And that's exactly where the Sandersons come from. It was the idea of the Sandman. And that's why when Neil uh Gaiman's book came out um uh uh about the sandman, I was so intrigued and such a great book. But uh yes, I I just wanted the stuff of of when I was little, the idea of the sandman coming was terrifying to me. I don't want this guy coming into our house into my bedroom. That was really scary to me. So the idea of that, um, that's exactly where that came from. And no one in close to 30 years of a bazillion interviews has ever hit upon that.

[24:11] Robert Peterpaul: Wow.

[24:11] David Kirschner: Wow. I just got the chills. I love things. I love little hidden things like Chucky's name is Charles Lee Ray and Charles Lee Ray is Charles Manson, Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Ray, all the men that terrified me as a child because I was sure I was next for whatever whatever my overly active imagination uh um sent me in those directions, which was constant with my very patient parents of what's in the house and who's gonna get it. Um but um yeah, I I love the idea of playing with names and even Thackeray Binks. My mom came up with the name Thackeray because I said I need a name from that period, but I'm you know, I know there were David's and Tom's and Stevens, but I I want something more romantic. And she said, Well, how about Thackeray? And I said, Oh, yeah, I love that. And Binx was a combination of of black and ink, and so that's where Binx came from.

[25:13] David Kirschner: And when I was a little boy, I found a cat, a stray cat that was black, and we had two dogs, and I knew my parents would never let me have a cat. So of course I snuck it into my room and would feed it for days, not even thinking that cats have to relieve themselves. And my mom came into my bedroom and said, "What is going on in here? It smells terrible," and I had to give up the ghost, so to speak, the cat on that. But that he was my inspiration for Thackeray Binks. I mean, I rewatched the film last night and I was re-falling in love with Binks again. I mean, I see new things every time I watch it, which is unlike a lot of films that I love, because you did put that depth into it. And I'm the same way when I write, I love like each name has to mean something.

I like pour over these names and these meanings. So I think that's so cool. And I was thinking too, I was like, he must have had a cat. And the brother-sister relationship too. There's such a heart beating through Hocus Pocus that I think is why it's still beating in a lot of ways, or not beating since they're undead, I guess you can kind of say it however you want. But your daughters, they must be so proud of you now in the life that this Hocus Pocus has taken on. I mean, I can't imagine. You know, I mean, they've grown up with this stuff.

[26:27] David Kirschner: They are, but I think for them and for both my wife and I, it's I think they're more proud of just the people that we are to each other. And I mean that yes, they're exceptionally proud. They're gonna be so proud to be at the screening, but we're all very, very, very, very close. One daughter literally lives 30 seconds away. And the other daughter in Hancock Park, and we talk almost every day. Yeah, it's yeah, we're incredibly close. Sometimes it scares me because I just worry one day when we're not here, and because we're all so close with each other and speak many times. Especially the daughter around the corner with all the grandkids. We just speak a couple times a day. And it's just, you know, life fascinates me and frightens me because it's just moved so quickly.

You know, it's this big if you're lucky. And I've been very lucky with love and kindness in my life and opportunity to express myself. I was a little kid that was terrible at sports as I remain. And I don't think I've ever successfully caught a ball. And I grew up with parents that understood that I was a kid that loved to draw and love making puppets and putting on shows and building haunted houses in the garage. And I was really fortunate with parents that were understanding of that and didn't try to push me in directions that I shouldn't be pushed and really kind of celebrated this little odd kid, I think is probably the best way to say it.

[28:17] David Kirschner: Celebrating the oddness, I think that's so beautiful. And how lucky are we? I mean, I had parents that were the same. My dad screwed in window curtains that kind of had a pulley, like a stage into the basement so I could kind of put on my own shows. I'm sure Hocus Pocus was one of the soundtracks I would play and like open the curtains and close it as if it was like this big dramatic thing. I don't know.

[28:38] David Kirschner: Oh, I love that. But that's kindness to me. I mean, fostering a child's imagination and not putting up walls when they kind of show you who they are. So I'm sure that's why you're here today. And what's so beautiful is that you have this detailed amazing legacy that I think is going to continue to speak to your children long after you're gone in ways they might not even realize, you know, just watching a film like Hocus Pocus and hearing a line or seeing a moment and kind of feeling you. So that's really cool.

[29:08] David Kirschner: Yeah, it's emotional when you say it like that. But yes, it is. Yeah, it is. A lot of us don't have that, so I think that's awesome. But okay, to get into the sequel, because that's what I think everyone's so excited about right now after all this time, after nearly three decades, they are back. First of all, you know, once Hocus Pocus took on this life of its own and became a cult classic, over the years, I'm sure you had some ideas or concepts for a sequel. What was kind of your initial thought?

[29:38] David Kirschner: Yeah, my writing partner Blake Harris and I 10 years ago worked out a story for Hocus Pocus 2 and brought it to Disney's Features. And when we went in, we brought the six-foot billion back of me. I'll show you before we're done here, but I have my original book for my presentation in 1984. That's the coolest story how you brought candy and you decorated the board. I just think that is so cool.

[30:11] David Kirschner: Yeah, but here what we did was I tried to repeat that for two. And when I was bringing Billy Butcherson in, everybody was stopping and wanted that worked at Disney's, they wanted their picture taken. Everybody whipped out their phones and were taking pictures of Billy, selfies with Billy, and they were just so excited. And just even seeing that made me think, I mean, we're not wrong here. There is an opportunity for a sequel. And remember, when the first film came out, it did not do well financially. It got terrible reviews, it came out in July against Jurassic Park. I mean, what a terrible time to come out, first of all, July when it's a Halloween.

[30:58] David Kirschner: Yeah, no, it makes sense. And honestly, I was in tears that first couple weeks because it did so poorly, and I just thought, oh my god, the story means so much to me, and now it's gone, just like billions of movies come and go. But five years later, Disney's threw it up on Freeform, and they got some decent numbers, so they did it again, and the numbers built, and they kept throwing it out there, and it just kept building. And after five years, Disney's began to make a meal of it and make it, oh, look, we have Hocus Pocus, and those numbers just kept growing and growing until I don't know if I think it was last year that it ran every day in October, and from six in the morning until midnight on Halloween, and they you can see it for free at home, but at the beautiful Disney's Theater, the El Capitan, that is truly magnificent.

They, you know, people get dressed up as the Sandersons or Danny or Binks the Cat. And they all come and it's so wonderful to see, but these people could see it at home for free, and yet they choose to have this collective experience.

[32:18] David Kirschner: And yeah, that's wonderful to see. So when we were wheeling Billy in on a dolly and all the other things that we brought, and people were taking pictures, it made me feel like we're not wrong. People love these characters. And we went in, we had a great pitch, and for six months I heard nothing. Wow, and I kept calling and they said, "Well, we're still discussing it." I've never had a film take that long. I mean, people have said no in the room to me plenty of times, and a couple times there have been yeses in the room. Wow, but that there was nothing here, and finally they contacted me and said we're gonna pass. And I was heartbroken, and I then told my attorney to see if we could get the rights to take it to Freeform and or the Disney's Channel, and we did, and they bought it in the room, and we were in development for a couple of years, and then Disney's Plus happened, and they took it back, and now it's all the feature people that are working on it again that said no to it.

[33:19] David Kirschner: But yes, our story was about a girl who on her 16th birthday, her 16th Halloween, she realizes that she is a witch. And that good light versus the dark light is the Sandersons. She's the one that with her friends and friendship and love conquer the so-called evil, but funny, cute, charming. Yes, the bumbling is and yes, yeah, the bumbling. That's kind of the core of the story. I don't know how far I should go here, but oh yeah, no, it was the that's the core of the story. And but you can ask away, and if I feel a little uncomfortable or I know that Disney's would want to kill me, I will say that I can't I'm so excited.

[34:21] David Kirschner: I write for this movie site called Screen Rant, and so I've been pushing every day. I've been like trying to write an article about Hocus Pocus 2 to just keep it going.

[34:28] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you.

[34:29] David Kirschner: I'm so pumped, and we're gonna have a screening here in our little New England apartment, which it's quite gloomy today, which I think is fitting, by the way, as I look out the window.

[34:37] David Kirschner: Oh, I can feel Hocus Pocus coming, but yeah, it is such a beautiful legacy. Now, I think maybe what most audiences might not understand is the role of an executive producer. So I guess how much were you involved in Hocus Pocus 2?

[34:52] David Kirschner: Well, my credit on the film, aside from an executive producer, is based on characters created by David Kirschner and Mick Garris, who wrote the original screenplay and as a dear friend on Hocus Pocus 2. It's story by myself, Blake Harris, and Jen D'Anofrio, who wrote the screenplay and did a wonderful job, very talented woman. And I was not there. I've been going through a bunch of surgeries and some health stuff. And so sadly, I was not able to attend this, but I spoke to Lynn Harris, who's my dear friend who produced it and did such a great job. She was the onset producer. And just to see everything that was going on, when the music, when they finished shooting, and the scoring was going to be done here at Sony Pictures, John Debney, who, as we said, did the original score. John asked me to come down and made me cry with the words that he said to the entire orchestra about me. It was incredibly generous and sweet.

[36:06] David Kirschner: But when I used to run an animation studio called Hanna-Barbera, that the Flintstones and Yogi Bear and Jetsons and Scooby-Doo. Iconic John was doing Saturday morning cartoons for us and doing the music. And I went to Jeffrey Katzenberg at Disney's and said, this guy should be doing the score to this because James Horner, the great James Horner who wrote the music to Titanic and My American Tale and lots of other really important films. But he got an Academy Award nomination for An American Tale as well, and then won two Emmys for it. But sadly, very tragically, passed away in a plane crash. But he was not able to do Hocus Pocus. He had to pull out for another big film. And I was really disappointed and honestly a little angry that, you know, two weeks before he pulled out.

And so that's why I went to Jeffrey Katzenberg at Disney's regarding John Debney, the composer, and really fought for him. And John's work speaks for itself, but it was one of the few fights I ever won with Jeffrey Katzenberg, the head of Disney's, and John, they then signed John to a three-picture deal. And John then won the ASCAP BMI New Composer of the Year Award for Hocus Pocus. And you know, now he's an Academy Award nominee and won so many Emmys.

[37:39] David Kirschner: Um, but his music just added so much to the first film and the second film. I think he's outdone himself. I'm so excited to hear from you as to well, what you think of the film about John's score as well. It's just it's just so moving and he just he's truly brilliant. He's truly a brilliant man. And I want to say that you and your uh listeners, there's a great book by Ray Bradbury. Yes, called The Halloween Tree. Yeah, and it's it's just that book was really inspirational to me when I was in my 20s, and I reached out to Ray, and he wrote me back, and a friendship developed. And once a year we would have um sandwiches together in October uh in in his basement and uh and talk about things that go bump in the night.

And uh we did that until uh until he passed away. But um he was uh he was a very dear, dear man, and uh but just my love of Halloween is just it's endless. And when you said it's gloomy here today, and it's just like oh, just a complete pang of green envy, jealousy washed over me because it's near a hundred here today, and it's just I I mean, first of all, uh to me, sunshine is what they what people call gloomy. To me, yeah, gloomy is just I I don't think I've ever thought of anything creatively anything of worth on a sunny day, but gloomy days, it just comes out of me, and I I just putting I love putting around music and just going somewhere else on a gloomy day and then add rain to that, and uh and that just helps me tremendously.

[39:23] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, me too. It's like that inky coat is put over you. I mean, I'll probably later go for a walk and listen to the Hocus Pocus score because they finally put it on Apple Music, and I I think it's so brilliant too. It's one of the most amazing movie scores I think of all time, and I can't wait to hear the sequel. And I hope there's still that little motif, you know, that that's from the original in there that just gets my heart pounding.

[39:45] David Kirschner: It's there, and it'll have your heart pounding. It's there and then some, and he's really, you know, the girls walk and just just the overall themes come little children. That was written by James Horn, right? I will say that. Yeah. I said to James, can you just write one song for the movie? Just I know you're so busy, but since you bailed, we do this, and he wrote come little children. And uh, oh my god, it's just so beautiful, and so there's a lot of that. Oh, yeah. I think I told you I got to do a set visit, and I was there the day they filmed the musical number, which I guess I won't name because I think it's out there, but you know, just in case. And just the vibe. I mean, it was in Rhode Island, it wasn't Salem, but they literally transformed it into Salem, and the townspeople were were watching outside.

People came dressed in costumes. They had these beautiful tents set up. I mean, they had fake leaves everywhere or real. I don't even know. It was so magical. And it was just something special to be a part of. So I can't wait to see it close up on the screen. I think that's just gonna be the best day of my life.

[40:45] Robert Peterpaul: Oh I can't wait to hear from you after you see it. Um yeah, just that whole fall vibe um that they were able to create for for the first film and and the second. Bill Sandel was the uh production designer on the first film. And just all these people had something in common, and that is they just loved Halloween.

[41:09] David Kirschner: Yeah. And and October and what it just what it did to them as it does to you, you and I. And uh it's it's really uh yeah, it's gonna be really special. I I said to my son-in-law, I almost don't want the movie to come out because I'm just living in such a dream right now of so many nice people contacting me and the people that I've been able to talk to for press for Disney's or or people that that not even through Disney's of just that just want to know about the film, and I I just love discussing it and talking about all the merchandise and uh it's just it's so amazing to me.

[41:49] Robert Peterpaul: It really is amazing, and I actually feel the same way, and I'm not even involved with the film. I'm like, I don't want it to end because it's that anticipation that's so exciting. It's like the leaves first blowing in, and I'm sure you know it it'll be equally exciting to watch and watch over again. But as you were kind of revisiting the film, I think people are so obsessed with the Sanderson Sisters, as you know, that's not news to you. I don't need to tell you that. But was there anything specific you really wanted to like sprinkle or pepper in to the sequel about them that you feel like wasn't told in the first film?

[42:20] David Kirschner: Yes. Um in the um in the sequel, what you will see at the beginning is the Sanderson girls as teenagers. And um, and Winifred is just as awful before she realizes that she's a witch. It's her birthday, it's her 16th birthday. Okay. And and um and and she realizes she meets a character, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going to, in the Forbidden Forest, which is where the Sanderson Cottage is, who is played by Hannah Waddington from Ted Lasso, the big tall, magnificent looking uh blonde woman. Oh, yeah. Um, and she she plays uh a character that is kind of an elder witch, and she is the one that gives book to Winifred Sanderson. And so you you have an idea of their background and how those powers came to be, and uh that that uh that the elder witch, if you will, recognizes in in Winifred Bette Midler. There's something very powerful here, yeah.

[43:33] Robert Peterpaul: And I I think that will be really wonderful, a wonderful foundation for people to understand how the Sandersons came to be and how they got their powers and uh and why they chose to live in the forbidden forest. Um, and of course, their love for snacking on children.

[43:53] David Kirschner: Just a sensible snack. Yeah, she's such a brilliant, brilliant casting choice to me, Hannah, because to me, she has the affect of all three of them combined. She has Bet, she has Sarah, and she has a little bit of Kathy, like she's got the quirkiness, she's got the strong kind of divinous, and then she has that like kind of wonder in her eyes. So I'm excited to see her on the screen because I feel like she kind of encapsulates all of them in a a cauldron, if you will.

[44:18] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that that's wonderfully said. And uh I I believe you're right, but I never articulated it as well as you just did regarding Hannah. Um, and I will, if you don't mind, borrow that from you.

[44:30] David Kirschner: Oh, yeah, I take it. I don't even know. There's all of those things.

[44:33] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. No, that's so exciting. I I wonder too, you know, as the sequel comes out, and we don't want to think too far ahead, but these characters are so beloved. That do you ever think you would like to see a new generation take on the Sanderson sisters? Or I mean I know it was so hard to get all the pumpkins in line to make Hocus Pocus 2. So I wonder for you if you see like a cartoon iteration or if you if you see a continued life.

[44:58] David Kirschner: I I do. I mean, uh, you know, I even with after the first film, and my my hopes were dashed on the rocks of uh of Jurassic Park. But um, I really what what I believe was that underneath all of those headstones. Well, as you saw when the kids run in in the cemetery and they go beneath underground, and you see kind of a little bits of coffins sticking out and and s and skeletons. Um I wanted to really explore a world that lives beneath Salem of things that go bump in the night and um of other creatures in a Buffy the Vampire kind of way. I mean, it's Salem for God's sakes, and that is uh those those those are that's magical land, that's holy land.

[45:48] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah when it comes to things that go bump in the night in in this kid's mind anyway.

[45:53] David Kirschner: And uh I um so I I absolutely would love to see that. I know there's been so much fan art of the hocus of well, of the hoax focused characters, but specifically the the sisters, the girls, and uh and I I would love to see Disney's do an animated series. Um one of my favorite series that was ever done was Beetlejuice, an animated version of Beetlejuice. I love that. And it was just so full of imagination. And um uh I also did uh the Adams family um in animation, and and that was really fun to explore. But I think that there would be nothing like Hocus Pocus with what we could do with creatures and werewolves and uh vampires and other witches and uh just creatures of the night, what we could bring to life. Um it could really be it could really be wonderful.

[46:46] David Kirschner: And can I can I just show you? Can I get the black flame camera?

[46:50] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, please, yeah, I'll try not to pass out, but it's just it it's it's like 10 steps away. One sec.

[46:57] David Kirschner: Yes, this room looks so magical.

[47:05] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week. Thank you so much for listening. I still can't believe that this interview is real and that this episode is out there, and that I got to speak with one of my heroes. David, thank you again from the bottom of my pumpkin-flavored coated heart. This meant the world to me. And I will say, Hocus Pocus means the world to me. I'm a huge fan of spooky season. And now my fiance Cassie, who you have heard me talk a lot about on this podcast, you know, she's not the biggest fan of Halloween. And that's how you know I love her because that was not a deal breaker because she's incredible in a lot of other ways. And she appreciates Halloween. She's just not, you know, an amped-up pumpkin head like me. But I will say, she gets excited for me. She lets me love Halloween. And that's all you can do, right?

[48:05] Robert Peterpaul: And so your kindness tip is to let people love what they love. Let people have passions, and just because they're different than yours doesn't mean that you have to poo-poo them, you know? We can lift each other up in that way. I mean, how much fun is it when someone just lends a listening ear and you get to tell them all about your favorite movie, your favorite TV show, your favorite piece of art, your favorite musical, your favorite sports team, whatever it is. But giving someone the space to be passionate about art specifically to relate to this podcast, that's kindness to me. So do that today if you can.

[48:41] Robert Peterpaul: I also have to very quickly shout out the amazing Goose Creek Candle Company. You heard me mention Goose Creek Candles to David because he saw my amazing Hocus Pocus 2 candle in the back of me as I was talking to him. And let me tell you, it smells like Halloween. I mean, they have an entire Hocus Pocus 2 line. I have been fortunate to get all the candles because I'm obsessed. And I want to pack up and move into each canister. I would live inside of a Hocus Pocus 2 candle if I could. You open it up, you smell the scenes of the movie, the smells of Halloween. I mean, it is autumnal bliss. And so if you're a fan, please do yourself a favor. Head to Goosecreek Candle.com. Okay? They're not paying me to do this. I am doing this out of the pure love for these candles.

[49:36] Robert Peterpaul: And before I totally fly off the handle, ah, get that pun right there, fly off the handle like a broomstick. I should say, tune in for part two of our interview with the delightful David Kirschner very, very soon. Stay tuned for that. Subscribe so you don't miss a beat. And until next time, my friends, please remember, everything's gonna be a okay.