This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the sky a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:36] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, listeners. Hi. I am so thrilled today to bring you part two of our magical conversation with the creator of Hocus Pocus and so many other iconic projects, a creative magician, David Kirschner. I do feel like you need to know, I feel like it's important information that I tell you that I am recording this from our Halloween haven, our Halloween-drenched apartment. I mean, in full candor, I have been waking up in the middle of the night with ideas on how to decorate this apartment since August. Okay, fine. Since July. And now it looks like a spirit Halloween store threw up in here. It's finally here. I really don't know what I'm going to do when I have to take these decorations down. I will possibly need to be admitted somewhere on how to recover from Halloween, a Halloween recovery program.

If you know of one, please DM me. Just to paint the scene for you, I would like to invite you inside now. It's brimming with pumpkins and spiders, orange twinkling lights, some orange and black garland that is sparkling on the windowsill. I've got candles. I've got spider webs. I've got skeletons. I mean, the list goes on. But most importantly, there's lots of Hocus Pocus merch. Because spoiler alert, I'm hosting a Hocus Pocus 2 screening party! Please indulge me just for one more second while I rattle off some of the amazing items out here that I have. I've got two shiny Sanderson sister cauldrons, one gloriously large one from Hallmark that says, "I smell children," and then a little mug version of that that my friend Bob A gave me.

Shout out to Bob A. He's so kind. I also have a lovely Hocus Pocus print from artist Sammy Gorin. You may recognize her stuff. She's incredible. Sorry if this is too much information for you, but I'm gonna keep going. I raided Michaels and HomeGoods and so much more. I mean, did you know there's even a Hocus Pocus Yahtzee game? And yes, I am going to force my guests to play it. I'm just so excited for this movie that's been in the works for nearly three decades to finally fly onto our screens. Woo! But first, we have a spooktacular interview to hold you over. If you didn't get a chance to listen to part one of the David Kirschner chat, please pause this and go do that right now. It's ghoulishly good.

And maybe while you're there, leave us a five-star review. What what? Okay, for context, I'm going to include a mini bio on David, and then we'll soar into an amazing conversation like Kathleen and Jimmy on two Roombas. If you know, you know. Speaking of Kathy, there may be a little surprise in here from her too. I don't know. You'll have to listen.

[3:39] Robert Peterpaul: Today's guest is the iconic producer, screenwriter, illustrator, and all-around creative mastermind, David Kirschner. His career is like the perfect trick-or-treat bag, brimming with a plethora of treats. It's going to be hard to concise it here, but I'll try my best. Though when you speak to Kirschner, you feel like his origin must have been from a pumpkin patch or graveyard in the hollowed grounds of Salem. He's actually a Los Angeles native. David began his illustrious career as an illustrator for Jim Henson's Muppet and Sesame Street characters. Sorry, I couldn't resist. If this is your first time listening, by the way, you're in for a real weird time. David also created art for prolific talents like Neil Diamond.

At 23, he wrote and illustrated a series of children's books entitled Rose Petal Place. Success really struck like lightning in 1986 when Kirschner created and executive produced An American Tail alongside Steven Spielberg, which went on to become the highest-grossing non-Disney animated feature of all time and spawned several sequels and even a TV spin-off. In 1989, Kirschner was appointed the chairman of Hanna-Barbera Productions, where he worked on countless iconic properties from The Addams Family to The Flintstones to The Pagemaster, which I love. You may also know him as the creator of Chucky, the insidious doll that has been terrorizing viewers across a hit franchise of slasher films and most recently, a television series for a very long time.

Currently the head of his own production company, aptly named David Kirschner Productions. Here are some other highlights along the way of his producing that I really want to mention: the Golden Globe-nominated film Miss Potter, starring Renée Zellweger, The Curious George franchise, ah, and an animated special of Ray Bradbury's legendary book, The Halloween Tree, which is very close to his heart. Speaking of Halloween, we are of course here today to focus on one of the particularly glorious stories that was plucked from the patch of David's spectacular mind, Hocus Pocus. David first conjured up the idea for three evil witches vying to suck the life out of children as a bedtime story for his own kids.

As magic so often does, it seemingly took on a life of its own. As fate would have it, David got a meeting at Disney's where he turned the entire boardroom into a Halloween haven, decorating the walls and spilling candy across the table. Disney was smitten, and Hocus Pocus was a go. Ahead of the sequel, David so graciously talked with me about the kindness he felt while making the original and then the sequel. As he zoomed in from his otherworldly office, he showed me the original Black Flame candle, Winnie's spell book, boom, and above all else, kindness. I seriously cannot stress how kind David is. As always, please stay tuned after the interview for your kindness tip of the week. Once again, if it is not clear, I'm so grateful to have made a friend in this kindred spirit. Without further ado, please enjoy part two of our conversation with the delightful David Kirschner.

[8:03] David Kirschner: Can uh can I just show you? Can I get the black flame candle and book?

[8:07] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, please.

[8:07] David Kirschner: Yeah, I'll try not to pass out. It's just it it's it's like 10 steps away.

[8:13] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[8:14] David Kirschner: This room looks so magical. I brought three things to share with you. Three heart attacks coming your way. This is my original Black Flame candle. I'm gonna put it close that Lizzie um just went to the grocery store and got me a candle. I think there's the labels under there. Wow. And um and I took brownie just regular paper and I put it in the oven and made it look like old parchment. And then I drew on it all kinds of things that I copied uh from books and uh uh with words like purgatory and and then other words in Latin, but I don't know what they mean. Um, and then just did really detailed drawings of women in power and all of that and then this is this is the book that I presented back in the day and oh my goodness it is it it's my my biology book from high school that I never returned and that's how we put it together but that's um that became book and uh my friend Robin built this for me uh based on my drawing and um so that that's fitting because you know it's made of skin so the biology book I feel like you know gives it some gravity if I ever get arrested for never returning it I will I will explain uh I will explain that well I'll bail yeah just okay this book just came out from Disney's it is so well done I was so pleased by it um and the first book that came out that had the original story and another story I wasn't wild about but this I mean the art is is by a a guy named Griss who is incredibly famous for his style and how Disney's got him is beyond me but I'm so happy and it's it they did such a great job so he did art and the way that it's written I just I was so happy about this book.

[10:25] Robert Peterpaul: Oh oh oh wait let me show you just one more thing.

[10:25] David Kirschner: Oh please do.

[10:25] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah I can't wait to get that book I have it coming.

[10:30] David Kirschner: If you take off the cover, can you see it's it's the the book from the beginning of Hocus Pocus and with all the carving in it um and when the book kind of undulates uh and then opens they did a just fantastic Disney's job on it.

[10:49] Robert Peterpaul: Wow.

[10:49] David Kirschner: And uh as you may know this started before COVID, but it's now now it's it's seems to be back on and that is that um they're are building a a Broadway version of of Hocus Pocus.

[11:04] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[11:04] David Kirschner: And uh you know I just want to pinch myself I'm just afraid I'm gonna be nine years old and on a little league field again if I pinch myself. So I don't want to pick you are but it's just so wonderful to just to stand back and watch all of this and again you know it's it's not just me it's so many people that brought Hocus Pocus to as I said from Kenny Ortega and Mick Garris's script and John Debney's uh score and and Bill Sandel's uh production design and and now a whole new generation are are working on it and have made it just I think you're gonna be very pleased I I really think so excited I know I'm going to be and I've been waiting for a Hocus Pocus the musical I wrote I wrote for some theater sites and I wrote like I pitched like an entire Hocus Pocus musical years ago and I think it could be it could probably be the answer not that anybody needed me to do that but I think it could be the answer to the theme park too because they can transform the lobby into the cottage I mean there's like endless opportunities for it to just be this like magical immersive experience and I don't know if you've seen Beetlejuice but it's a musical but it almost feels like a theme park ride just because of the the way it's done.

[12:16] David Kirschner: I've not seen it, but that sounds um amazing.

[12:19] Robert Peterpaul: And Tim Burton's mind to me is is amazing.

[12:24] David Kirschner: And so I I got it, I would love to see that. Every year at Disneyland, we go at Halloween and Christmas. Um, and they have uh they have a uh they turned the haunted mansion into uh Nightmare Before Christmas.

[12:39] David Kirschner: And yeah, the way they've done it is so beautiful. In Florida, they do a uh Hocus Pocus villain spectacular show. I'm sure you're familiar with that one.

[12:49] David Kirschner: Yeah.

[12:49] Robert Peterpaul: And um I've I've only seen it online.

[12:52] David Kirschner: I have not been back there to see it.

[12:54] David Kirschner: But they just uh had me sign another six-year deal on that.

[12:58] David Kirschner: But it's so successful for them. And you know, I watch it and I just cry. I mean, it just they do such a beautiful job of the girls back for one night from the dead, and what do they do but host a dinner party for all the villains of the Disney's characters? And so just like to see characters that I created standing next to just these iconic characters, just oh god, just I get so excited.

[13:24] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, well, your characters are iconic now, they're stitched on the fabric of Halloween. They are Halloween, honestly, to me and so many people. And I think because it's built on that foundation of love with you and your children, it's just it'll stand the test of time, and it's so beautiful. And speaking of love and kindness, I've been geeking out, but I would love to know if you can share any stories about acts of kindness on set of, I know you couldn't be on set of Hocus Pocus 2, but anything that comes to mind within the Hocus Pocus world that kind of touches your heart.

[13:55] David Kirschner: Well, I think um Bette on the first film was very kind and had a couple of people that were massage therapists that she would bring in for the crew, and just as an act of kindness, I mean, I you know, it was just she didn't make a big deal of it. It just kind of threw her people. This is what Bette would like to do. So would you make sure that it's taken care of? And that's what we did. And I was very struck by that that she even, you know, she's Bette Midler, she's a diva, she's you know, I say that in the best way. Yeah, you know, she's just she's in another stratosphere, and yet she's thinking of people. And the only other person that ever did that on a movie was Renée Zellweger on Miss Potter. She did that for the crew as well.

[14:48] Robert Peterpaul: That movie. When people do that, oh thank you. I see her behind you. I keep seeing her face poke out behind you.

[14:53] David Kirschner: Oh, oh, that's right. The poster there.

[14:56] Robert Peterpaul: That's so special.

[14:58] David Kirschner: Yeah. It looks like such a magical little office that you've carved out for yourself. And I love the light fixture. Here, wait, I'm gonna show you one other thing.

[15:05] Robert Peterpaul: Please do.

[15:06] David Kirschner: Normally I never show. But oh wow, you're spoiling me. Oh my goodness. That graveyard is if you look closely, those headstones, it's the entire orchestra. And this is a piece that I've written that Michael Jackson was my partner on. And obviously you know what happened after that, that he passed away. But that's for this other project called Through the Horn, that is a story about black music in America and this young girl that is like Tchaikovsky or Mozart in the inner city, and she has all my stories steps into a fantasy. Again, you know, I've never been a little black girl, but I like writing stories, and it doesn't matter to me, gender or color or it's just an experience of childhood. And then I'll bring in a screenplay writer to write the story of it.

[16:07] Robert Peterpaul: I think that's so amazing. I gotta thank you for that because you allow people to not only feel seen, but to see themselves and also see the possibility of a better future. And you've done a great job, I think, with representation and telling stories, you know, Hocus Pocus, even it's like built around these three strong women. It's such a female-centered story, and we need more people like you that are kind of championing that. And that's kindness to me as well. So thank you.

[16:36] David Kirschner: Well, as a father of two strong women, and married to a really strong woman, an MBA, you know, I grew up in a house with not only my mom and my sister, but my grandmother who I worshiped. I mean, it's amazing. I sh my grandmother's been gone about 45 years, and I don't think there's a day that goes by that I don't think about her. There's so much of my childhood that was formed by her love for me and kindness to me. And it's just the way that I try to be a grandparent to our three grandchildren as well, just being a really fun person and creating moments like when our kids were growing up. We used I used to have a game called Hide and Go Freak. And hide and go freak, Liz and I would turn off all the lights in the house, and it was the house that we recently built, but the old house was about a hundred years old and about 10,000 square feet, and we would turn off all the lights, turn on the fireplaces, and turn on music.

There's a piece of music called Penderecki's The Entombment of Christ that is all Gregorian chants, and I would play the craze killer. I would play the craze killer that escaped from jail, and I'm and they have to hide in this house. They loved it, and I created a newer version of that for our grandkids in this house. And it just, you know, as our older daughter who's incredibly creative, she's creative director for a big advertising agency and it's done a bazillion films. The first thing she ever did was Wicked. She created the logo of the one sister whispering in the other one's ear for Wicked. Yeah, she's amazing. And the other is a really creative jewelry designer. But as they both have said, they grew up in a house that was a very creative house.

There's a great deal of love and that you as a woman could go out and do anything in the world that you dream. And you know, it's really I look back on it, it does make me emotional because I think I'm closer to one end of the field than I was 20 years ago. But it's been such a wonderful ride, and I've been so so blessed, starting with my dear wife and then children and grandchildren, and just to Liz, who's really kind of the adult in the relationship in the sense that okay, well it's good to have. I've never written a check in my life, I've never balanced a check. This is really embarrassing to admit. But Liz just kind of allows me to go and go into a room, draw pictures and write, and come out with something that feeds our family.

And yeah, you know, it's I'm lucky that I'm married to someone that really celebrates that. Because when we were first married, you know, she was the first senior VP in this banking institution at a very, very young age. And you know, I was at home keeping the house clean and cooking, and at that point drawing pictures of Jewish immigrant mice that would become An American Tail. And you know, I wonder what her parents thought. I mean, it's just like, you know, is this guy a bum? What is he doing? But they believed in their daughter and she believed in me. And without that belief, I wouldn't be here because my personality is I just I need that around me. I yeah, just and I'm lucky to have it.

[20:52] Robert Peterpaul: That's so beautiful. I think we're so similar in a lot of ways, but that grounding too. I mean, I was just even at my aunt's the other day, I call them my fairy god aunts because they have this big kind of creaky house, and they're just these two little magical beings. And I don't know what compels me, but every time I'm seeing someone, like in the morning, I creeped around their house and like popped through the kitchen and I scared them. I just I love being mischievous and kind of scaring people and just starting the day off in a spooky way, which some people don't appreciate. But I love that you're saying that, and I think it's interesting too because your gratitude is so beautiful, and the fact that your wife worked at a bank and you're saying you've never deposited a check or really go to the bank, but I think you are a bank because you you seem to deposit in people as much as you withdraw from people, if that makes sense to continue this crazy metaphor, which I think is kindness. It's like that balance of not just always taking, which is really special. So you're kind of you've cast the spell that I think you're starting to see materialize with your family.

[21:52] David Kirschner: That's a beautiful way of phrasing it. I'm gonna tell Lizzie about this the second we're done.

[21:58] Robert Peterpaul: Oh gosh, tell her hello. Well, I know I gotta let you go. I would love to know. Do you really quickly have time to play a surprise game?

[22:05] David Kirschner: Absolutely.

[22:05] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, I want to respect your time, but I realized I've probably been talking too much, so I'm gonna mute myself, and this will be very quick. It's actually not much of a game. It is called the compliment game, because I haven't complimented you enough already. And basically, David, I reached out to some people in your life for a compliment or a loving statement about you, and they got back to me. Well, you know, you know a lot of really cool people, so actually two got back to me, which is pretty special, and you just have to guess who said it.

[22:35] David Kirschner: Okay, I have no idea.

[22:37] Robert Peterpaul: I think honestly, you'll get them because there's some really obvious hints that they've embedded. But these are pretty special, and I think it's amazing that these people specifically took the time to do this. So, all right, here we go. Insert cheesy theme song.

[22:49] David Kirschner: Okay.

[22:51] Robert Peterpaul: Everyone's beautiful in their own way. It's the compliment game on me. Yay, okay. It's the compliment. Compliment, yay!

[23:00] David Kirschner: Mom.

[23:01] Robert Peterpaul: This is your first quote. David Kirschner is one of my oldest and dearest friends in the business. David literally gave me my career starting with our work together on Jetsons the Movie and the Halloween Tree. In 1993, David was instrumental in hiring me for the movie that started it all, Hocus Pocus. This movie, while not an initial success, led to a three-film deal for me at Disney's. Who could have imagined that our little Halloween movie would become the worldwide phenomenon that families around the world now enjoy year in, year out. Throughout all the intervening years, my love for David has not only grown but multiplied by 10. David is at once the consummate storyteller, extraordinaire, but also a deeply kind, gracious and loyal friend and comrade.

When others come in and go in our fickle business, David remains the best friend and partner one could ever have. We cry every time during the ending of Hocus Pocus 1, and again now during the ending of Hocus Pocus 2, I can think of no one more passionate, more kind, nor more gracious than David. He is my friend forever and ever, connected by our heart strings, and is one of the best men I know.

[24:18] David Kirschner: That's the amazing John Debney.

[24:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. Because at the 20th, 25th anniversary of Hocus, Disney's decided, you know, let's say to some fans that might be out there, you can come to a screening on the lot. And within 10 minutes, they were sold out of an eleven hundred seat theater.

[24:37] David Kirschner: Wow.

[24:44] Robert Peterpaul: And so they thought, okay, let's throw up one more. And same thing within minutes. And anyway, it was a wonderful day. But when John and I watched together, our wives on either side of us, John sitting and I sitting together, and that ending just kills me. Just with when Thackery Binks dies, when Danny's crying, when Thackery Binks, the boy, the ghost boy now has been released, and his sister Emily takes him up to heaven. I it just makes me weep. As I'm saying it to you, I have chills and tears in my eyes. It's just a weird thing that happens to me. But at the end, John and I held hands and just cried when we watched that together. It was truly one of the most beautiful moments of my life, just experiencing that the fact that we've been friends for so many years and experiencing that together. That just really really did it for me. And yeah, so John Debney. He's incredibly gracious and too generous with his words to say the least.

[25:55] Robert Peterpaul: But oh no, I can tell they that's beautiful. I owe him a thank you. They're all spot on. He sent this right away and he was very excited to do this. And he seems like not only such a talented soul, but a really kind one as well. So I think it's cool that you've united all these people. And is that do you have a sister? I probably should have looked this up, but is do you think it's your sister?

[26:17] David Kirschner: Sadly, she passed away um just a little more than a year ago, very uh suddenly and tragically. Yeah, it was it was um it it was uh it was pretty shocking and rough, yeah. Cause yeah, I have so I had a well, I have a sister and a brother, but I had another brother who passed away growing up, and I think for me too, that's why when I watch Hocus Pocus, it hits home for me because it's like that sibling push and pull weird roller coaster relationship that's ultimately just like coded in a love like no other in your life. So I cry at the end too, is what I'm saying of Hocus Pocus.

[26:56] David Kirschner: Yeah, no, it's I I've said this before in interviews, but it's it's true. Um the uh I'm sorry about your loss with your brother first and foremost. That's very tragic.

[27:05] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you.

[27:08] David Kirschner: Um that last scene is completely inspired by um a movie made by a Fox Studios um uh starring Rex Harrison and Jean Tierney. It was made in the 40s, it was called The Ghost and Mrs. Muir, and it's about a sea captain who um well, it's about a woman who buys a great old house. She's been saying no to all these other houses, and um, and she sees this house looking over the ocean, and it just speaks to her. And the realtor says, Look, I'm gonna be honest with you, there have been some problems here. Some people have said it's haunted, you know. Who knows you know what people say make up, but she said, uh he says, I just don't think it's probably a good fit for you. And she says, No, this is the house that I want.

And sure enough, as she moves in, things begin to go awry, and the sea captain slowly makes his presence known, and he's a blustery guy who's enraged that a woman has moved into his house, and how dare her, and she's as strong as can be. And in the course of the story, these two fall in love. And it's an unrequited love because he's a ghost. I mean, he he's there, but you know, he's not really there.

[28:28] David Kirschner: And at the end of the movie, it's been like 35, 40 years, whatever, 50 years later, and she's a really old woman. And her housekeeper comes in and brings her her glass of milk, and she's holding it. And the housekeeper says, Are you okay? And the housekeeper was a young woman when she moved in with her, and they're both old women now. And she says, I'm okay, I'm just a little tired. And as the housekeeper walks out, you just see her just kind of close her eyes, and the milk falls out of her hands and hits the floor, and the camera pans to the windows, and the windows blow open, and just these magnificent clouds are there. And stepping down from heaven is handsome Rex Harrison, and he steps into the room and takes his hand and puts it out.

And the young the young woman version of herself steps out, and they walk up, step on the window box and out the window and walk up towards heaven. And I just whoa, that's the way that I want to go one day. I want to be able to come back at Lizzie, yeah, a hundred years from now, and and take her to heaven for us to to be in the heaven that we're in uh that we live in every day. Um, that is our love for each other. And uh that that scene just killed me. But that that was my inspiration, and probably more to the point. Uh, it's probably pretty much ripped off from from the ghost you're when they walked when they walked through those gates that to me is like the window going to heaven and um i it's funny i've written a couple scenes uh um i there's a story i wrote called um the dreamer of oz that um i'm being approached on now for uh for a uh a a musical version play version of it that john rider started and um it's about frank bomb who created the wizard of oz who was I mean first of all john ritter was the kindest person in the world and he plays this role so beautifully but he's saying goodbye to his wife at at the end and um it's just the way that I would want to say goodbye to my Lizzie and um but John just plays the scene so beautifully I I don't know if you can find the end on YouTube but if you can watch it because it's it's it was a little movie that we made for very little money for NBC for the holidays but Tom Shales from the Washington Post called it the most glorious uh movie ever made for television and it's just like whoa that was I mean we got beautiful reviews for it Richard based on uh on my story what a beautiful screenplay uh we wrote the story together and Jack Bender who went on to win a bazillion Emmys for uh the Sopranos and for uh lost and for Game of Thrones directed it um and uh so anyway.

[31:32] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, no, I'm gonna look that up right after. That's so magical. And I don't know if you know, you can find the Hocus Pocus screenplay online that you wrote. At least I think it is there. And I've read it so many times and have had it open, and it's such a beautifully put together, well written screenplay that's slight that's a little different than the movie, obviously. It's my one of my favorite things to read. So I I think that's beautiful that you give credit to your inspirations because a lot of people don't do that. And it's very kind.

[31:59] David Kirschner: No, I well I for well, first of all, it's the right thing to do. Yeah. I just I don't know, so many people have been so kind to me from the time I was a little kid. And I I really took note of it. I remember I was roller skating once in a roller ring, and I just couldn't do it. And I remember this big kid, I was probably seven. This big kid was probably 12, just came over to me, and I I was having a problem even trying to get up, and he put his hand out to help me stand up. And I just even as a kid, I just remember thinking, wow, that's so nice. Look, you know, there have been plenty of people that haven't been nice. So but that that was so nice, and it just it's one of those things that I I will remember to the end of my days of people that have just been so kind to me. And that that's my first, aside from the likes of my grandmother and parents, but just uh another kid doing something so nice.

[32:56] Robert Peterpaul: Oh yeah, you never know what's gonna touch and affect you, and I think it's good that you remember that maybe more so than the bad things, and it's a reason why I wanted to start this podcast and have these conversations just to promote kindness more and get people thinking about it. And I luckily experienced a lot of kindness growing up too, and when my brother was sick before he passed away, it wasn't necessarily people donating money, but it was just the smiles or the hugs or people dropping off dinner at our house that really kind of hit home. It's like these simple acts of kindness in a lot of ways throughout this big dramatic time, which for some reason I remember him and his illness as like a musical in my head. I I don't know why, but there's so much kindness kind of embedded through the grieving process.

[33:38] David Kirschner: So before I ramble on about I love hearing that. And um, I mean it it hurts my soul and touches my soul at the same time.

[33:49] Robert Peterpaul: How old was your brother when he passed away?

[33:52] David Kirschner: You know what's really strange? When he was diagnosed with cancer, he was nine. And then when he passed away, he was eleven on 9-11 at 9-11 p.m.

[34:02] Robert Peterpaul: Wow.

[34:03] David Kirschner: Wow. Isn't that really strange? And he was just the happiest kid, always had a huge smile on his face, and loved Hocus Pocus. I mean, these movies are really what kept him going in the hospital. It's what we would all do is like sit around and cram into his bed and watch movies. And so the power of that was never lost on us. But yeah, that that numbers thing is just so weird, the 9-11 thing. And I actually looked, I wasn't in the room when he passed away. And I'm sorry if I'm getting into too many details, but I was with my cousins and my family, and I just remember we were watching a movie, and something compelled me to turn and look at the digital clock at 9-11 when he passed away. I just happened to look at the clock.

And then the next morning my parents came in and told us, and we all had had a chance to say goodbye because he was sedated. And it it's like what you were saying before. What do you say to somebody when they're laying there and you know you're never gonna see them again? It was so profound and weird, and I I I every day since either look at the clock at 9-11 by chance in the morning or at night. So it's a strange thing, but I do feel him with me. And it's I think it's again why Hocus Pocus gets me even more now because of the the symboling dynamic.

[35:17] Robert Peterpaul: What was your brother's name?

[35:19] David Kirschner: Thomas.

[35:20] Robert Peterpaul: Thomas, okay.

[35:22] David Kirschner: It's just important me to have.

[35:24] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you.

[35:24] David Kirschner: Yeah, he's so we started a foundation. This is I wear this bracelet in his honor, but our tag is inspire a smile because that's kind of what he did even in that really dark time. But thank you for asking about it. That was very

[35:36] Robert Peterpaul: Oh no.

[35:39] David Kirschner: It moves me greatly, and and the the it has, as I said, two effects. It hurts my soul and and and it's so beautiful the way that you've presented the story of what you went through and just even being cognizant of the of the nurses and doctors that were kind to your family at such an impossible time. I mean, it inspires everything I do and and write and and act in and uh every day, you know. There's not a day I don't think about it, but I do I I've taken up so much of your time, and I do want to read you this quote that hopefully will move you as well. And this is also pretty obvious, so I don't think you'll have to go into a huge guessing game with me, but it's lovely, so and you deserve it.

[36:28] David Kirschner: Okay, here we go. David Kirschner is a prince. Does that right away sound like anybody? Because I feel like the term prince is probably only used by a select few people, but I'll continue.

[36:41] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, please.

[36:42] David Kirschner: I'm sorry, no, not yet.

[36:44] Robert Peterpaul: No, okay.

[36:44] David Kirschner: We worked together on Hocus Pocus One, and I have never met a showbiz, quote unquote, person as organically warm, sincere, and all around lovely as David. He handled every bump with a gentle breeze of humor. I got to know him and his family, who he adores, and kept waiting for that show biz to come out of his veins. But David is an authentic, organic and kind person. Here is my favorite story about David. And maybe oh, and this will give it away. Wait. Do you think you know who it is yet?

[37:21] Robert Peterpaul: I I don't know if it's Doug Jones.

[37:23] David Kirschner: I I don't know.

[37:24] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, here okay. This this will probably give it away. I'm gonna take out the name because that'll be a dead ringer. But uh, here's your here's this person's favorite story. A couple of years after we did Hocus Pocus together, I got a call from him saying, Hey, can we fly you out to Canada to do a little cameo in my film? I said, Of course, Angel, anything for you, David. Okay, I'll fax I'll fax you the script. Yep, those were the olden days of fax machines. I watched as the fax machine slowly chugged and read, Bride of Chucky.

[37:56] David Kirschner: Oh god!

[37:57] Robert Peterpaul: I have only seen one scary film in my life, and after that I knew it was too much of a scaredy cat to see anymore. And now I'd be in one. But I had a blast, and again, anything, anytime for dear David of mine.

[38:13] David Kirschner: Kathy and Jimmy.

[38:15] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, I just wanted to make sure I read the whole script that she wrote for this.

[38:19] David Kirschner: Yeah, wow. Beginning sounds like uh something that uh Doug would say, but um, yeah, uh Kathy used to come for dinner to our home, and she would bring her dog, whose name I think was Floyd, and the dog would sit at the table with us.

[38:35] David Kirschner: Wow. It's just, I mean, that was her plus one. And she was incredibly well mannered, and Liz and I are obsessed by dogs. And so uh we loved it. But yeah, just uh, you know, she's so funny in the film, and just you know, she and and the Roomba twins um are just they're so funny together, and you know, she's such her character is such a suck up to Winifred.

[39:00] David Kirschner: Um anyway, there's some changes even in that relationship that you'll see. But um yeah, that was very nice. You know, when I was on the set visit, just whispers were swirling about how kind she is and how she was treating the crew and just the way she was kind of very down to earth. And I thought that was cool to hear because she kind of exudes that happy energy, but also always fights for important causes with her platform. So it's cool to hear that too, that she can just have fun. And I know she improvises a lot in the films and oh, so much. I mean, that line, I mean, Neil Cuthbert in the first film wrote a lot of really funny stuff. A lot of people were brought in, best people to add, you know, humorous bits, and Bet is just quick like that too.

But Kathy, I remember when they first go to the witch's house, and Kathy's smelling, and she says, "I smell children," she sniffs again, she says, "seven, maybe seven and a half." I just love that. I mean, that's Kathy, she just did that, and then Thora pops up and she says, "Oh, Shishka baby." And I just, you know, she's so quick. She's so funny, and um, yeah, no, just yeah. Very kind, really nice. That was nice, by the way. I will have to thank her for that.

[40:29] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, I mean, it's magic on screen, just the three of them and the story, it's the perfect recipe. And this was the perfect time together. I know I've gone way over. I'm so sorry. I usually don't do this, but I...

[40:38] David Kirschner: No, I love chatting with you. I wish you lived next door. We can watch Hocus together and yeah.

[40:46] Robert Peterpaul: Lots of spooky Halloween movies.

[40:48] David Kirschner: Yeah, if you're ever in New England, we'll make you dinner, we'll have you over, and hopefully we'll have a dog by then, but not yet. We had a hamster during the pandemic, which was its own tale.

[40:58] Robert Peterpaul: Oh.

[40:59] David Kirschner: Then something like that ends well.

[41:01] Robert Peterpaul: Oh no, they just don't live long, but it was quite lovely.

[41:06] David Kirschner: Yeah. Her name was Butter.

[41:07] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, what kind of dogs do you have, by the way?

[41:10] David Kirschner: Um, they're mutts. They're mutts. I mean, they're one is small, one is tall. Um, and they look nothing alike and they're brother and sister, but a female can get pregnant by another male suitor up to three weeks after they're already pregnant.

[41:27] Robert Peterpaul: I did not know that.

[41:29] David Kirschner: And uh, so they have different daddies with the same mommy, and they're inseparable. And the little one, Debbie is her name. Uh huh. Uh Deb, she cleans his ears and eyes every night. They sleep with us. There's no room for us in our bed. I'm really fighting for a king-size bed, and Liz says no, I want to be next to you. And I said, I'm hanging off the bed every morning for Ollie. His head is on my pillow and he's facing Liz. And I'm literally hanging off the bed, but I don't want to say anything because I feel like they had too rough a life and I just want them to have the best life possible. Honestly, we don't go anywhere. We are always here because we feel bad to leave them. And if we go down, if we go just quickly get something to eat for an hour, they look at us like, how could you leave your children?

What kind of parents are you? And I feel it. I just, I love them so much. They are my, and I think because our children are grown, our grandchildren are growing, and our teenagers, and so I just love loving things. So I, and they provide me with that idea of nurturing something that needs nurturing.

[42:42] Robert Peterpaul: That's real, that's so beautiful. I think you just struck a chord in me about something about myself. I love loving things. Like I think it's too much love for my fiancé sometimes. Like I just love, I always want to like be hugging someone or something like that.

[42:56] David Kirschner: I'm the exact same way. No, I'm sure I'm annoying in that way with my family because I just always, I just love loving them. I just love loving them and I, and yeah, I, yeah, it's like come closer. No, come closer. No, they're like, I'm literally next right next to you like our shoulders are touching. I'm like closer.

[43:18] Robert Peterpaul: I think that's so cute. Well besides getting a dog, I would love if you could just end our time together with like a tangible kindness tip. So if you have anything you would love for listeners to take away and incorporate into their day that could kind of make the world bit by bit a little bit brighter or gloomier I should say for you because that's your right.

[43:26] David Kirschner: Yes, and gloomy means wonderful. Yeah. I think just look around you and be aware and cognizant that there are people that if you go to a restaurant and the best person puts water down, my guess is most of the time people don't look up at them and look in their eyes and say thank you very much and have a great day. And it's, I mean, I don't wake up thinking, oh, what can I do to be kind today? One, I think I was certainly born a certain way, but I was also taught just to be aware of what's around you and be thankful all the time for that. It makes me crazy when I go to dinner and a server brings the meal and puts it down and the other couple that we're with just continue to talk without saying thank you.

I get, I almost get a claustrophobic just this feeling comes over me and I just for them I say thank you. I do it constantly and some of my friends make fun of me, but I'm always thanking anything that's not nailed down. But I do and I am thankful. I'm thankful, I'm thankful to still be here. I've been through a lot of surgeries and have been cut open a lot of times and I'm so thankful to my doctor who I think is a genius that keeps me walking 50 miles a week and allows me to be able to go into the gym and lift weights because of spine problems. And um, I, you know, I'm, I it's just look, I think I was born a thankful person and a person that is aware, but I, you know, we're all works in progress and we all have to just keep working to be the better best people that we could be.

And I think without going into politics right now, but I think that the world is and this country is in a bad place and there's lots of hate and division. And um, and that makes me sick. It just, it really does. I because I there's so much to be kind and thankful for and be aware of other people's choices and how they live their lives and um, and to support that.

[45:56] Robert Peterpaul: Um so yeah, this is a conversation I can go on for from the next two hours.

[46:02] David Kirschner: I listen, I could talk to you for the next two days, but I am getting the vibe that the mayor in Hocus Pocus, there might be some kind of mirror holding up to society with that storyline since I know there's a male mayor and something with power. I don't know.

[46:15] David Kirschner: I feel like that could be coming as well.

[46:18] Robert Peterpaul: But hey, yeah, no, no, you're right, Tony Hale is the mayor, and he also plays a really cruel and mean version of a town mayor at the beginning of the film when the girls are 16. And um, and uh anyway, another one that that's great. I mean, there's so many great additional people in this version of Hocus. I can't wait. I'm so sorry. I could keep talking to you forever, like I keep saying, but I will just say to follow up on your kindness tip. I'm very aware of my gratitude right now, and I'm very thankful that you took the time to do this and you were so kind and open. And when we hopped on the phone, you just immediately felt like an old friend, and that's really special, and that doesn't always happen.

So I'm grateful to have spoken with you and to know you a little bit now. And I can't wait to see Hocus Pocus 2. And I thank you just for being such a great role model in this industry because now we have this amazing talent on so many levels, multi-hyphenate that we can look up to, who we also know is a kind person, which is way more important than talent and all this other stuff. So thank you.

[47:29] David Kirschner: That's so kind of you. That's so nice of you. I yeah, there's no other word. And uh, and I've so enjoyed my time chatting with you, and I hope this is the beginning of a long friendship.

[47:41] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I hope so too. Love to your family and your dogs.

[47:45] David Kirschner: Thank you, and to your fiancé and your family.

[47:47] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

[47:49] David Kirschner: All right. When are you getting married?

[47:51] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, to bring back the 11th thing, we're getting married on 1111 22. So this November.

[47:58] David Kirschner: Oh, that's so exciting.

[48:00] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[48:00] David Kirschner: In New England.

[48:01] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's in New England.

[48:03] David Kirschner: I so envy you.

[48:05] Robert Peterpaul: And on 1111.

[48:08] David Kirschner: So happy for you.

[48:09] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you so much. That means the world. And this was just amazing, and I wish you a magical rest of your day.

[48:16] David Kirschner: You too. You're a sweetheart. Like really special soul.

[48:19] Robert Peterpaul: Oh thank you. I feel the same about you.

[48:22] David Kirschner: All right, I'm gonna I'll pull myself off, otherwise I'll never let you go.

[48:27] Robert Peterpaul: Take care, thank you.

[48:28] David Kirschner: You too, stay well.

[48:35] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week.

[48:45] Robert Peterpaul: Ah, I just love David. Just as he so kindly gives credit to all of the things that initially sparked inspiration for Hocus Pocus. Today's kindness tip is to give credit where credit is due. We all like a little credit, right? I mean, I know I want a good credit score, first of all. What what? I always wanted extra credit in school as well. I mean, I wanted a credit card since I was really little. I was like, swipe that thing and let me buy some Hocus Pocus merch, right? That's not what I'm talking about. I think it's so important that we show appreciation for the people that have inspired us or given us a good idea. I urge you to stop right now, and I'm going to work on this as well, and think of someone who you can spotlight.

For instance, if you have a friend over to your house and they compliment your decor, tell them who really picked it out. Don't say, oh yes, I got that in Prague. I mean, maybe you did, I don't know. But tell them, oh, so-and-so gave this to me. Or, you know, my awesome fiancé Rob picked it out. Or for my artists out there, if you're working on a play and someone has a really great note or idea, make sure to tell them you think it's great. And give them credit, should it get some praise. That said, for this specific episode, I want to give credit to some of my people. Thank you to my mom for coming along with me in such a spontaneous way on my Hocus Pocus 2 set visit all that time ago. I'm going to share pictures from that, by the way.

If you want to see, head to my Instagram at rapetpaul. I wanna thank Allison and my Broadway Podcast Network family for helping to spread the word on this episode. Allison was able to get us an amazing exclusive in People magazine, which should be live right now. Ah, so exciting. Thank you to the amazing Hocus Pocus fan account, my friend Hocus Pocus Guide for the support on this as well. Such a magical page. To my amazing siblings, since you know Hocus Pocus is all about sibling dynamics, I love you. To Cassie, my love, as always. And last but not least, I gotta give credit to you all for listening. Thank you. You have credit because you had a good idea to press play on this. Seriously, I appreciate you so much.

Oh, audio hug. Now fly into the night. Go watch Hocus Pocus 2, and then please come back for more spectacular episodes here on The Art of Kindness Podcast. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm about to go bake some sweet ology Halloween cookies in preparation for my party, which again, I cannot stop thinking about. Until next time, please remember, everything's gonna be a-okay.