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[0:00] Cassadee Pope: Hey, it's Cassadee Pope, and you're listening to The Art of Kindness.

[0:10] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the universe a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:38] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, friends, and Hey Monday. It's Monday, and our guest was in a band called Hey Monday, so that felt appropriate. Welcome to what's potentially the season finale of the Art of Kindness Podcast. Oh, don't worry, we're going to be back really soon, actually, with a kind slate of new episodes. But summer is winding down, fall is winding up, and I've already got my pumpkin spice latte in my hand. It's actually not a latte. I like pumpkin spiced iced coffee. I'm not like a big milk person. Anyway, I feel like I kind of dropped the ball on joining you in this kind audio space. So we're going to officially just take a beat. I couldn't be more thrilled to end on a kind note, a singing note, with today's guest who has quite the voice.

[1:43] Robert Peterpaul: Hailing from West Palm Beach, Florida, Cassadee Pope rose to fame as the first female winner of the hit reality show, The Voice. After fronting pop punk band Hey Monday, which we talked about, and releasing a chart-topping solo country album, she's made a powerful return to her roots with her pop punk album Hereditary, a raw and emotional exploration of life, love, and legacy. Cassadee's recently enjoyed lighting up the stage in a different way, starring in the off-Broadway productions of Titanique as Rose. I'll never let go, Jack. And now in Rolling Thunder, a rock journey as Linda. I had the privilege of catching this fun docu-show at New World Stages with my buddy Bryce, and walked away from the theater pondering the Vietnam War and all of the folks who were a part of it, including my Uncle Steve Greenberg.

Shout out. I miss him. You can find out more about this show in the show notes. Now, friends, until we return, I want to say you can find us having a positively unhinged kind time on social media at Art of Kindness Pod and at Robert Peterpaul. Seriously, I would love to connect, so let's be friends on there, and we can continue this little kindness community. Oh audio hug. Now, without further ado, please welcome the kind Cassadee Pope.

[3:38] Cassadee Pope: I'm just in love with your voice, so this is surreal to have it in my ears right now.

[3:44] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I love that. Well, thanks for sticking around all these years. It's been a long time since Hey Monday days.

[3:50] Cassadee Pope: Oh, the world has seen a lot of changes and we're all kind of just holding on.

[3:55] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, you know, since we were at Homecoming.

[3:58] Cassadee Pope: Oh my god, homecoming. That was so cheesy.

[4:00] Robert Peterpaul: I make a lot of dad jokes. You'll find that out soon.

[4:02] Cassadee Pope: I do love those.

[4:03] Robert Peterpaul: That's all right. No need to apologize. Thank you so much. But I wonder, you know, Cassadee, I'm sure you get a lot of love for Hey Monday, for The Voice, for now Rolling Thunder. How are you at accepting compliments in this industry?

[4:18] Cassadee Pope: I've gotten better at it. I used to be terrible. I used to do the thing where, you know, if someone compliments your hair, like, oh my god, it's so dirty, I saw I have to wash it. And then just over the years, right? It's like the kind of knee-jerk reaction when you've especially as an artist, when you've been in an industry that tends to be critical and will comment on will give unsolicited comments on your looks. And so, like for me, it took a while to be able to thank people because I know even just complimenting someone can not come naturally to certain people. And if they do compliment you, it's like that's a compliment in itself for them to even say something outwardly nice to you. I think we all think nice things about everyone we see, and we don't think to say it out loud sometimes.

So I've learned to be better at just taking it and you know, you could take a compliment with humility or not. You could take it and be like, oh my god, thanks. I know I'm having a really good hair day. You know? That's okay to say as well.

[5:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, rock it out. I think that's so true that it takes a lot of vulnerability on both ends, right? Because especially now with you in the theater community, just going to the stage door and talking to someone you just watched on stage for a while is vulnerable. It's like a little anxiety producing sometimes. So to not accept that from somebody, it just, you know, it's that awkward dance. We've all done it at the stage door where we're like, oh my gosh, no, I cracked and my voice is like super tired tonight and but it just makes it easier to say thank you, which I think you've learned to do.

[5:49] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[5:49] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. You wanna respect someone for stepping out of their comfort zone, maybe and giving you that compliment.

[5:56] Cassadee Pope: So as your dog steps out of the frame, your dog is.

[5:59] Robert Peterpaul: And he's gonna know he's he does this on when I'm recording anything, he decides I'm gonna try and scratch at the door to go on the balcony. Come here, Cuppy.

[6:08] Cassadee Pope: Well, you could totally let Cuppy out if you need to.

[6:11] Robert Peterpaul: It's New York City, you know.

[6:13] Cassadee Pope: I know. It adds a fun ASMR ambiance, honestly.

[6:17] Robert Peterpaul: You want me to sit out there? I'll sit out there. Right here too. They're definitely gonna break in at any moment.

[6:21] Cassadee Pope: No, I'm so grateful you're here. And one of the things we always start out doing on this show is just getting everyone's definition of kindness because I think it means something different to everybody. So I would love to know for you, Cassadee, what does it mean and how do you think it's evolved over the years?

[6:38] Cassadee Pope: For me, I don't think I knew what kindness was a long time ago, but I know I felt it from people and now living life for 35 years, I feel like kindness comes in the form of empathy. I've never I feel like any time is able to see things from your perspective or really be able to make you feel understood. Like that feeling is to me unmatched. And it's to me it's love, it's kindness, it's care, it's nurturing, you know, anybody that's able to hold space for you to be able to like tell them your experience and for them to meet you with like a either like I've been there or I'm you know just not even like insert themselves into their response. That to me is kindness and it's like a massive warm hug every time I experience it.

[7:42] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. I love that. That's a beautiful definition.

[7:44] Cassadee Pope: Thanks.

[7:45] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, we all know. I mean, I could pull out Webster, but that's how I see it. You know, I do have it open in another tab because I often forget. I'm like, what am I here to talk about today? I don't know. Why do I have a microphone? But I think it's interesting looking at your career that's been through so many evolutions and different phases, and it's so cool to do research on you just because of that. It's so interesting. I wonder, is there an act of kindness that kind of stands out to you as changing your trajectory and getting you on this path?

[8:13] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's been a few things, and I was racking my brain before this, being like, what was like one that really stood out to me? And I think because I can be so critical and I have a tendency to be perfectionistic and hard on myself if I make like a mistake. There was this one moment when I did The Voice where I felt really insecure about a performance. It was after I sang a song called Stupid Boy, and it was a little bit further on in the competition. I had made it through pretty far, and I just I felt like I didn't really hit a note well enough. And I guess maybe I went back to the dressing room and I was a bit down on myself. And word must have gotten to Blake, my coach, and Blake Shelton eventually came into the dressing room and was like, I heard you're being a little hard on yourself, and I heard that you're not happy with your performance, and I just wanted to show you iTunes and show you that you're number one on iTunes right now, and you need to just like just embrace the fact that like something that you see as like a flaw, other people hear as like a character in your voice, like it's something that makes you unique and special.

So try and not focus on that and just focus on like how you're affecting people, and this is like really affecting people, and it really helped because yeah, it's just it's just something we do as entertainers. We try and pick out the ways we can improve, but that can cross into a very negative territory. So that was really nice.

[9:46] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's a great example, and I think it's really cool as someone who often also suffers from perfectionism at times, and I'm like, what even is that? What even is perfect? I know it's helped me to realize like we're just not good judges of ourselves because how many things do we get wrong throughout the day? So it's like, why are we choosing to believe that this moment where I had something similar recently on a not the same level at all, where I sang at a concert and I'm looking at the video, and I sort of was like, can you edit this one moment out? And they're like, that moment was so fun. And so it's sort of like embracing the imperfections, especially in this AI world, right? Where it's like that's what's gonna make things stand out as human.

[10:25] Cassadee Pope: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like when I first heard Rolling in the Deep by Adele, it really took me by surprise the amount of times my brain went, oh, oh that was pitchy, oh that was pitchy. And then in my soul, I loved it and I was feeling it and I was like I love this but like the perfectionist thing kicked in and I was like this song is a hit. Like what am I even thinking? Like what of what is this? What is this trained ear that is like betraying me right now? And so I look at people like that who had the chance to be like let's redo this or I'm gonna tune this or can you comp together something that sounds perfect. And they chose not to in the name of art and then in the name of authenticity like that to me is always a great thing to remember and come back to like the people that are so successful and you look at the you know things that give them character or some people might see as flaws and they're killing it you know they're selling out stadiums she had a Vegas residency you know so it's just things like that that unfortunately get the best of us but we have to always come back to what it's all really about.

[11:44] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah it's so true. And there's a lot of quote unquote you know even Broadway stars singers who maybe aren't technically the best singers but they're such great storytellers and they're vulnerable which again in looking at your career something I admire about you is that you at least don't seem afraid of being vulnerable or bold in your work and I think that's something a lot of us you know muggles out there have to learn how to do and so I love to kind of pick your brain just by hearing where you think that came from your ability to just be vulnerable so effortlessly from the outside looking in, but I'm sure it's not always that way.

[12:19] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, I mean, there are certainly topics that I have strayed away from in my songwriting that because I do feel like I share a lot, but there are certain things kind of off limits. But I don't know, I mean maybe it's my upbringing. My family, like my mom has always made me feel really comfortable coming to her with any feeling, any, you know, thing that I was going through with a boy or friends, I mean I would always go to her with it. So I always felt like I had a very safe forum with her growing up. So when I was getting into the time of making music and releasing it, I guess I didn't really think about the amount of people that might hear it. I was just thinking about what I felt comfortable sharing with the people in my life at that point.

And I started sharing stories about myself from like seventeen years old. So I guess I started young and it just always remained like the thing that I do. But I guess I think in general I'm an open book. Like I am not great at surface level conversations. I can have them but for me they're really depleting. So I think small talk is very depleting.

[13:37] Robert Peterpaul: It is it's like I need a nap after like it's so I know you gotta move to the end of the dinner table and find the person that will just like go really deep with you for you know two hours and then you're like oh my gosh I didn't eat my food.

[13:50] Cassadee Pope: Yes.

[13:51] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. I know exactly yeah and so that's how I am.

[13:55] Cassadee Pope: So like that's how I am in my music. I think it's just easy for me to get in a session and sit there with the songwriter friend and we co-write something that's really personal because I'm just like, here's me. So yeah, I think that's I've always been pretty open.

[14:10] Robert Peterpaul: I love that. And I think that's probably, you know, part of the reason why you spoiler alert, everybody, won The Voice, and were the first, I think, female identifying winner of The Voice. That there should transition. Obviously, you know, that show is about stellar voices singing-wise, which you have, but it's also about the voice in the sense of your point of view and your story. And I worked on America's Got Talent for a couple seasons, and I saw sort of firsthand how producers would kind of like steer things or try and like eke people's stories out and then find a connection point that would, you know, connect with the viewers.

[14:45] Cassadee Pope: I just wonder like what being on that show kind of taught you about unlocking like how you want to show up as a storyteller and a performer in the industry.

[14:56] Cassadee Pope: I mean, I will say there were some really um I learned a lot by sharing so much on that show and realizing once you open that door, it's open. Um because I did talk about some pretty personal things on there, and I've always said such great things about The Voice and the way that they treat their artists because I really did feel taken care of and nurtured, but there was a day where I was very sleep deprived and exhausted, and they kind of got me in a vulnerable place and I just divulged some things about my dad, and it taught me that you know it's fine, it's good to be an open book, it's good to be vulnerable, but it's also good to view you giving that to someone as like a gift that they either deserve or they don't.

[15:50] Cassadee Pope: And I'm not saying they didn't deserve that information, but I felt like looking back, it might have been asked out of the wrong motives or from the wrong place. Um they just wanted to help me win the show. And I think that's like to anybody it would sound like well that's a really good reason to ask you that and to try to get that out of you. But at the end of the day all it did was kind of put some eyes on my personal life and drudge up things and kind of get my dad acting a certain way.

[16:29] Cassadee Pope: Um and so it just like at the end of the day that wasn't really what was best for my personal life. Did it help me win? Probably like I even Christina Aguilera was saying she can relate to that to the dad stuff. Um so yeah it was it was one of those things where I was like I in the moment I felt so I trusted. I was so trusting with everybody on that show. Um and then looking back I was like well that might not have been the best like way to use my voice. I don't know.

[17:00] Cassadee Pope: I know a lot of people who were very kind and like I thank you for speaking out on this. I'm going through the same thing or I have gone through or I'm a dad and I've been acting this way and I'm you know um and I've had a couple of songs that have touched on it since then that people can relate to and it's hard to like have the hindsight and be like, was it for the best, was it not? But it was just something I learned.

[17:25] Cassadee Pope: Something that I clocked and I was like okay, you know, I don't have to tell everybody everything all the time. It's like maybe you can pick and choose who deserves that information.

[17:34] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I think that's smart and it's a fine line, right? Because it's you and it's part of your story. But then when it brings other people into it, it's tricky because you're sort of like I what sort of like do I own and am I just able to freely say without hurting like I think about this all the time, family members or other people, but then it's like so deeply a part of you and affects you so deeply that you're like it feels inauthentic not to share this. So I get that that's probably a struggle.

[18:01] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, and like there's so much context that that gets lost that you're you know, you're not gonna share, you're not gonna share the whole story. And even if you do, you can't really um talk about the ways where your perspective has changed and you did this therapy session and then you learned this, and then it's just like such a complex subject when you're talking about relationships and um you can't divulge every waking moment of that time.

[18:29] Cassadee Pope: It's just like impossible. So you once it's out there, you're kinda letting it go. Like you're letting people create their own narratives, which is it can be scary and and it has sucked in certain situations, but um but yeah, I mean, I if I'm being like true to myself, I don't I don't think I regret it. I don't think I regret it. It was just hard.

[18:51] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[18:52] Cassadee Pope: It's hard.

[18:53] Robert Peterpaul: That's good. It's good not to have regrets from what I hear.

[18:55] Cassadee Pope: But I also hear yes.

[18:56] Robert Peterpaul: From the people that have told me them.

[18:58] Cassadee Pope: They, whoever.

[19:01] Cassadee Pope: The proverbial day, the ones that are.

[19:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, there we go.

[19:04] Cassadee Pope: You know, I feel like it's been interesting again to do some research on you because you seem to have had a lot of intentional shifts. So even if you put personal information out there or say something you think is wrong in the moment, and then people label you, you don't seem to like stick to those labels, which is so cool.

[19:21] Cassadee Pope: And I wonder, like, even like prior to, you know, this conversation, going back to Hey Monday, you know, and then now you're on off Broadway. It I would just love to you talk about kind of trusting your gut and dare I say following your voice in regards to your career because it's it's not easy for everybody. And I just think it's really cool when someone can kind of like intentionally try new things and succeed.

[19:46] Cassadee Pope: Thanks. Um I think it was like probably four years ago where I started to really feel this like yearning to diversify my career. And you know, I started I started writing with and for other artists more and um writing for like sync placements and um trying to just like be creative in different ways because all I've ever identified as is like a musician and putting out my own music and um and then I started taking acting classes which really opened up this whole other avenue and this whole other like door in my brain where I was able to create but in a whole different way and and and to be able to find ways to empathize with like characters that I I've never met, people that I don't relate to really at all, but like found a way to um by learning like scenes that I had to do in class.

[20:46] Cassadee Pope: And so like pivoting throughout my career has mostly been about I you know coming from a place of lack and being like why am I not fulfilled right now? What's missing? And then kind of going into something that makes me feel good in the moment and then like, you know, 'cause I have I've done I did rock music with my band Hey Monday and we kind of hit a ceiling and it just wasn't really fulfilling anymore.

[21:14] Cassadee Pope: Um and yeah of course like some of that is is thinking about how to support myself and and be like a functioning adult who can like pay my rent and pay my bills.

[21:26] Cassadee Pope: Yeah that that thing um so there's obviously that part like if it's not working and I'm not happy then we need to adjust. If I'm happy and I'm not making money how can we adjust where I can still do what I love but like I'm able to pay my bills.

[21:44] Cassadee Pope: So it's really like I and and you know therapy like over the years really figuring out how to listen to that inner voice and to um listen to that like inner knowing that I that I never listened to until I was probably I want to say like 27, 28. Like I genuinely didn't really hear it until then.

[22:07] Cassadee Pope: Um yeah which is interesting because we trust to like the negative things sometimes so easily early on and we don't trust maybe like the good intuitive thoughts.

[22:16] Cassadee Pope: Yeah and like I think I think in the industry whether you're a musician or an actor um something that happens when you're really young is you get very used to feeling safe and in trusting like your manager or an A&R. Like you feel like as long as they're paying attention and they're telling you what you should and shouldn't do you're gonna be fine.

[22:39] Cassadee Pope: And then and because taking agency at that young of an age is so terrifying because you you don't feel like you know anything. And because I think I had a bit of that like angst where I thought I knew about like relationships and and who to date or whatever. But like I didn't I knew that I had a lot to learn about the world and traveling and and just life.

[23:04] Cassadee Pope: So like I really craved that that almost that um paternal uh figure in my career and so like then realizing that that's not sustainable and that can lead you down roads that you wouldn't have necessarily chosen for yourself then you're like faced with okay well who am I and what do I want?

[23:26] Cassadee Pope: Um and that was like a very hard process but that's when things started to get really really great and even in like the relationships that didn't work out during that time and the the music that didn't blow up during that time like I look at that that time up till now even and I just everything was meant to happen.

[23:49] Cassadee Pope: Like I don't look back and and I'm not like what a waste of time or or you know that that well how did I not see that person wasn't treating me right like it it was such a growth period for me and it was educational and it was like necessary for me to go through that stuff.

[24:06] Cassadee Pope: So going back to your original question it's like you kinda have to um you kinda have to like go with whatever's working for you in the moment and then think about all the things that could go wrong of course I'm not saying just like be just like fly by the seat of your pants if that's how you how you navigate and you've it's successful.

[24:28] Cassadee Pope: Great magic carpet ride, yeah. Um, but you know, make make informed decisions as best as you can, but like don't get hung up on like will I regret this in ten years. Like you're gonna regret your haircut in like a year.

[24:42] Cassadee Pope: So you might as well just live your life and not care if people you know have something to say about it.

[24:48] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love that so much. I think I heard the other day someone saying that like trying something new is the best thing you can do for yourself because it it's one step closer to being good at something or right at something, and being good and right is like the antidote to anxiety.

[25:04] Robert Peterpaul: Like when you know you're good at something, you're not as anxious anymore to go on stage or sing or whatever it is.

[25:09] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[25:09] Robert Peterpaul: So I think it's cool that you've done that.

[25:11] Cassadee Pope: And I also think it's really cool that my nanny always says she's like this amazing older woman. She's like, I am my own husband.

[25:17] Cassadee Pope: And I think I love that.

[25:21] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, it's really great.

[25:22] Robert Peterpaul: That's good in this industry. You kind of like you have to be your own agent, even when you have a team.

[25:27] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[25:27] Robert Peterpaul: And it makes me wonder like, how do you handle those difficult conversations when I imagine you have a team that's trying to steer you down a certain path after The Voice or whenever it is, because they're like, Oh, you you have this offer, this makes sense, and you're just like, I don't want to do that. That's not like the story I want to tell. How have you navigated that as you've found your agency?

[25:47] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, I mean, with all the trust that I would put into team members, um, I would still voice my opinion. And so so I always I guess because um I started in the industry so young, I had gone through so many things before The Voice. Like I had obviously you know about Hey Monday, but before Hey Monday, I had I had Hey Tuesday, I had Hey Tuesday, Hey Saturday, and those were just those days didn't really make sense.

[26:14] Cassadee Pope: Hey Monday was the best day to choose.

[26:16] Cassadee Pope: No, yeah.

[26:16] Cassadee Pope: Um just Monday.

[26:17] Cassadee Pope: But yeah, before Hey Monday, there was this whole other career that I had. Like I was I was signed before that even, and then I was um I was with these managers that were from West Palm where I'm from, and we had a big falling out.

[26:30] Cassadee Pope: And so like it was just I had learned so much already. Um so if I disagreed with something like post The Voice when I disagreed with something that like a manager would would ask or an agent would propose I would definitely push back and there were times where I we didn't agree and I just like didn't do the thing.

[26:50] Cassadee Pope: And then there were times where they told me why and it made sense and then I do the thing and it still didn't work. And um so it just it was just that kind of thing where like it was a trial and error period in full plain view for everyone to see which like sucked but it is what it is.

[27:08] Cassadee Pope: Like I did something that was that had a huge platform then like flew to Nashville and all of a sudden it's off to the races and I'm I don't really have much time to kind of dip my toe in at least this one single see how it does.

[27:21] Cassadee Pope: Oh it didn't do well okay maybe let's pivot like it had to work or it was another Voice failure because people already see like people coming out of The Voice and it not being successful.

[27:32] Cassadee Pope: Um so like it was there was a lot of pressure.

[27:35] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[27:36] Cassadee Pope: So but it but it was like a push and pull through the whole process.

[27:40] Cassadee Pope: So at least I voiced my opinion.

[27:43] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah voice is a buzzword. Everybody take a shot I feel like I was saying voice.

[27:47] Cassadee Pope: It's it's it's interesting like to hear you say that because trusting your gut obviously you hear that you're supposed to do that. Stay true to yourself. We all know this it's like from Shakespeare.

[27:56] Cassadee Pope: But we have a lot of young artists that tune in and I think I even know for me, it's it's really scary to push back at your agent or your manager because there's this fear that they're gonna drop you because you're sort of like just you know, amongst the crowd or whatever it is.

[28:10] Cassadee Pope: And to hear you share this story, even about having the falling out early on, and then now look where you are still.

[28:16] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, I feel like some of us could have that and just think, okay, that's it. Like this is the end, everyone's gonna hate me on blacklisted and totally it's not true.

[28:24] Cassadee Pope: It's I think it's part of kindness to yourself is like having these difficult conversations and just navigating in a way that feels authentic.

[28:32] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, and I think like learning basic communication skills like is always helpful.

[28:37] Cassadee Pope: Who would have thought of thought in America in this economy?

[28:41] Cassadee Pope: Like literally learning how to push back in a in a productive, constructive way and not and not, you know, I think you do have to navigate I don't say these people, but you do have to navigate the suits in this industry.

[28:56] Cassadee Pope: The suits, that's good.

[28:57] Cassadee Pope: And and not come back come at it as a in a combative way, unless unless you need to, like, unless they're being disrespectful and like abusive and whatever.

[29:06] Cassadee Pope: But like if you're coming at it from like a team player point of view and you just you want this to work, then I don't see why you can't voice your opinion.

[29:14] Cassadee Pope: And if they have a problem with that when you're doing that in a respectful way, that's just them having a power struggle, and that's them like not being right for you anyway.

[29:25] Cassadee Pope: I just feel like it's never bad to just say how you feel about something if you're doing it from a place of kindness, circling back to what this is all about, you know? Like that's never a bad thing to do.

[29:38] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, try and handle everything with kindness. And I think, you know, if you didn't, you might not have pivoted, which then wound you up here in our beautiful theater community. So welcome again back to Broadway.

[29:48] Robert Peterpaul: Which I know you're in Titanique, and now you're in Rolling Thunder. It makes me curious. You mentioned starting acting classes as sort of like a toe in the water, and I have a lot of dancer friends I've talked to who have then pivoted to acting. And it's such like a different skill, and yet you need it, right? Like you need your body for acting. But I've seen them kind of like struggle because it's technical and whatever. So I wonder, you know, having now seen you on stage, like there's just such beautiful power in when you're still and just singing, you have this like you almost have this like Dolly Parton quality to your voice that's so amazing.

[30:25] Cassadee Pope: Oh my god, it's like that's storytelling.

[30:30] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah. Well, no, you kind of have that. So I just wonder sort of like how you found the process of marrying that with being in a story, like when your voice so naturally already is telling a story on its own. Like, did you find that to be tough? Did you enjoy it? I don't know. That's even a question.

[30:45] Cassadee Pope: No, I did. I did. I've always gotten that from people, which I'm so grateful for. Like, oh, you know, you can tell a story really well when you sing. And I never really thought of it as acting. I've just always felt like I'm just feeling what I'm singing, and then so much of all of acting is emoting, right? And really like getting across that feeling that you're in in that moment. So like what I really love about singing and acting is it is like a stillness that I sometimes I have a hard time doing in my concert setting because I want people to jump and have fun. And I think like if as long as I'm moving, I'm not boring. But in this space in the theater space, sometimes like just the most still you can be, and using your voice and the inflections and your facial expressions, like that's way more impactful. So that's been a really great thing and a great challenge.

[31:49] Cassadee Pope: Like I did a work session for a Broadway show that I would love to get someday. I got really far, but I fingers crossed, any fingers crossed. Let me get my cigarette out. I have stories as well.

[32:00] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, of course. We all do, we all do.

[32:02] Cassadee Pope: But that was a really fun session because the director literally had me just like say the lyrics and act them out. Because he just wanted me to like let go of the performative way of doing it. He's like, you sound really good, but like let's dig into what the song's really saying. And it was like a pop song that's like a popular, you know, pop song on the radio. So it was like, oh, right, okay. Let's see what the song is even about. I thought I was acting it out, but maybe it was too much, you know. And it was a really great exercise. So like I and I've loved being a student again, you know. I feel like there's so much in the music industry that I'm still learning too, but I have been in it more than half my life and this is like this is so new to me.

And I've loved being new at something again, like we were talking about earlier. I really because it's challenging that perfectionist side of me where I don't I'm scared to take a risk because I don't want to look stupid or fail. You can't think that way in acting. So it's really been a beautiful challenge.

[33:06] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah. I love that beautiful challenge. That's a good title for an album, I'm just saying.

[33:10] Cassadee Pope: Oh, write that down. Write that down and approach it.

[33:15] Robert Peterpaul: It's interesting too, right? Because like you could tell the same story on stage every night as we move into Rolling Thunder here. But learn something new every single night. You're saying the same lines, singing the same song, but there's just that magic of the audience, the things going wrong, which is so fun. So yeah, it's like you gotta you're kind of forced to stay curious always in the theater because you'd think you know everything and let me tell you, you know, that set piece could fall down any second.

[33:41] Cassadee Pope: So it's yeah, yeah, there was there was something last night it was so funny. I don't know what was in the air, but our Rolling Thunder starts off with like a musical number, "Magic Carpet Ride." We have handheld mics. It's very like it's giving rock concert, you know? And I think people got kind of lost in that and like started taking out their phones and filming us and it was like kind of chaotic. Their ushers were running around trying to get people to turn their phones off and it was like funny, but it was also one of those things where it just it does it's so distracting. And then we had to go into the storytelling part where we go into dialogue and it's like it's more of a serious thing and it was still kinda going on in the audience.

So like that was that was really interesting and all of us just having to just keep it together and not be distracted by it. You know, it's just like I do I have really come to love those moments in musical theater 'cause it's yeah, doing you you can get stuck in the minutia of doing it the same thing every night. I try to stay consistent, especially for cues and stuff like that, but I do try and like come at things a bit different every night, just so that I'm like always really digging into the character development and all of that.

[35:04] Cassadee Pope: This was a really fast turnaround too. This was only like a month and a half between rehearsals and like going to previews. So I only I've only had Linda in my body for like a month and a half, almost two months. So yeah, we're still finding new things, which is fun.

[35:24] Robert Peterpaul: That's really fun. I mean, I guess a new thing the night I saw it, which was a little while back, and I was so delighted to go. I went with my friend Bryce. It was the night of that like awful hurricane flood in the city. Do you remember that? Like the subways flooded.

[35:36] Cassadee Pope: Yes.

[35:38] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. The thunder was literally rolling, Cassadee.

[35:41] Cassadee Pope: It was rolling that thunder.

[35:43] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. That thunder was rolling. My next dad joke for you.

[35:46] Cassadee Pope: That was good. Well done.

[35:48] Robert Peterpaul: Well, it was okay. Thank you so much. I'll take that. But I it you know, after seeing the show, I did I've done like these decades concert series that immersive with like projections. There's no story. But what moves me about that material is that there's kind of nothing else like it because the people of that decade come see it. And it's not surprising to me that they would then like take their phones out or get it and dance or whatever it is. Like something about these kinds of stories connect with people on like a totally different level.

[36:16] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[36:17] Robert Peterpaul: So what has that experience been like? I mean, there's a moment at the end when you guys finally kind of like open it up to everybody a little bit.

[36:24] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[36:25] Robert Peterpaul: Like you probably look out there and see people being transported every single night.

[36:29] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, it's I mean, I love the thing I love about like a jukebox musical. I know that we're not calling that this that, but people are singing along and I can feel their joy and I can feel like their nostalgia kicking in. We did one show we gave tickets to veterans to then stay after the show for a Q&A. And the thing that really moved me hearing over and over again was like you all touched on so many different perspectives of the war, you know, the people that stayed back, the people that got drafted unwillingly, the people that enlisted. They were like you told all the stories that needed to be told and like that was something that was really important to us when we were in the rehearsal process and there was a lot that we changed during that process was just making sure that it was an accurate depiction of the time and making sure that we were being sensitive with the storytelling.

You know, we have three incredible black actors in the show touching on the fact that there was still that that was their first time like with a fully integrated unit and how hard that was the obstacles they faced. And so it was it was it's always really validating to hear people say like I saw my story was told tonight and thank you for that.

[37:53] Cassadee Pope: Yeah and just like I think you're right. If you've if you were alive during that time or you were old enough to remember what happened, the little clips we play of Nixon and LBJ and Martin Luther King like you probably saw those. Like they probably were watching TV when those came on and that's I can't even imagine how moving that would feel you know I mean it's just so it's really cool to experience every night. And I can I can always tell like the people who are hearing these songs for the first time and enjoying themselves are people that have heard them for years, and it's just like it's so rewarding either way.

[38:39] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it is. And I know like when we're older, we'll see flashbacks to like Snucky commercials and TikToks, and we'll be like, oh my gosh.

[38:46] Cassadee Pope: No, but it's oh gosh, it's so it makes us sound like we haven't gone through anything as millennials.

[38:52] Robert Peterpaul: I know that's that's all I could pull from Cassadee because there's two, I can't go back to the back.

[38:55] Cassadee Pope: We don't want to go dark.

[38:56] Robert Peterpaul: We don't want to go dark.

[38:57] Cassadee Pope: I can't even imagine.

[39:00] Robert Peterpaul: We do, we got stories.

[39:01] Cassadee Pope: We've seen shit.

[39:02] Robert Peterpaul: We've seen a lot of shit. And actually, that's one of the things I really enjoyed about this was that not just seeing shit, but like experiencing all these different perspectives, and then at the end to be hit with these stats of how many people died. There's such a poignant moment at the end too where you guys acknowledge these veterans. I mean, it's like even if you weren't a part of that generation, it affects you on such a level that you're like, first of all, there's a lot of parallels to what's going on today. So you're kind of like, how can I now move through the world having seen this show? And being in it, what has that taught you? Sort of how is it informing you as a person?

[39:40] Cassadee Pope: I mean, it's I I'm going back to my first like what we first talked about, the empathy part, like that's I I don't have any family members that served in Vietnam. I didn't grow up hearing stories from them. I grew up I obviously learned about it in school and all of that, but I don't have any close connection, like direct connection to that time. So I think for me it's been a really beautiful learning experience to just like hear how people felt about it, how people feel now, how veterans feel now now that they're home and they might not necessarily feel supported by our government and by resources and feel some people feel like they look back on their their years serving with fond memories, and it's just like it's so different for everyone.

And I think that's that's what my takeaway is is just even though you haven't gone through that specific thing, like I haven't. I can still find ways to relate and still find it in my heart to like be able to feel what they're feeling and it's different. I'll never, you know, I don't think I'll ever go through anything like they did if they've served in Vietnam or anywhere, but just finding ways to relate is just like something that I've found to be really transformative during this time. Because it's so easy to like get up there and be like, okay, who knows who's in the crowd? Maybe there's a casting director who might see me and okay, I gotta do this and that, and make sure that I'm saying these lines right.

And then you like hear these stories or see people reacting, you're like, okay, well, that's like the even more impactful thing. Like that's really what that's why people create things, you know. It's it's for other people to feel them, to give them that space to to find joy, feel joy, feel sadness, whatever. So it like it brings you down to earth, which I've really enjoyed.

[41:47] Robert Peterpaul: That perspective shift, and like a lot of the people going to see this are going because they want to be transported back to that time and feel something.

[41:53] Cassadee Pope: Yeah.

[41:54] Robert Peterpaul: And so to have you sort of open-hearted, relating, you know, having your empathy first approach is special. And I wonder, because you've done this so beautifully, obviously on The Voice and in the past, but I feel like tackling iconic pop songs, it should be easier, right? Because we all love them and relate to them, but I feel like it's a bit more challenging because now it's in the sense of a different story. So how did you kind of like break down these iconic songs as Linda? Like, did you have any bit of a journey with that?

[42:20] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because there's some times where I'm singing something and it's not really exactly what I'm going through in the moment. And so it was it was a challenge for me to be able to be like, okay, what am I saying symbolically here in my head as I'm saying this lyric where I can convey this like grief or I can convey this joy, but the lyric isn't really saying that, you know, because I think that's that's that is a big hurdle for anybody creating a musical with like songs that already exist is like plugging them into points in the show that drive the narrative, drive the story forward, but like don't necessarily say everything that it needs to say. Yeah, like don't make it too cheesy and funny and yeah, yeah.

And like and making them make sense in that moment is the actor's job, you know, it's our job to yeah, just be thinking of what that feeling is that we want everybody to see, and maybe we're singing a lyric that's not exact, but that was sort of my approach was like, okay, let's just kind of forget what the lyrics are saying in this moment because it takes me out of it and just sing it and then feel the thing that I'm feeling inside. So I think everybody's been doing that really well. Like there's yeah, there's the song "We've Got to Get Out of This Place," and it the point the moment it happens is after something really sad, and it's such an up-tempo song, but the lyrics are actually very deep and like people are gone too soon that kind of sentiment and so that song actually is fitting it's just like the vibe of it feels like it shouldn't be there but I think that's kind of that's life like that's that balance so it's just it's just play you know it's just worth just figuring it out and we play with it and it works.

[44:23] Cassadee Pope: That's sort of like the I think one of the artistries of that music of that generation is that there's such a contrast. I mean a lot of those songs like war is such a bop but then when you really think about what they're talking about you're like oh should I be singing like yeah yeah it's so interesting and Linda sort of at the at the core of this show I think her act of kindness if you will is her commitment and her waiting and I think waiting is such a skill in this industry. What do you feel like your relationship with waiting and patience as an artist has been like I know this is a a big question but okay okay thank you.

[45:02] Robert Peterpaul: Not great.

[45:04] Cassadee Pope: Um God I'm it's a it's a struggle. It is a struggle. It's like the song from Shrek where she's like the waiter I don't know if you know that musical yeah but it's just I've not seen it but I know exactly what you're talking about everybody sings it. You just saw it.

[45:20] Robert Peterpaul: Oh yeah no I'm the one person in the dressing room who probably hasn't heard the the song from the musicals that you're singing but um I'm still learning.

[45:28] Cassadee Pope: I'm still learning. I I am I know it's it's annoying because I know that there's like like um a rhyme and a reason and there's like there is a plan and there's something like working to in my advantage I know that's happening and I know I feel it but then there's this other part of me that's like but I can't just sit back and like hope that happens like I've gotta push through doors and kick them down and and make myself known and and I will I will I'm I can't even think of a time where I kicked a door down and it led to something amazing. It's always been the moments of surrender, moments of like, okay, I'm gonna I'm going to go to acting class and I'm gonna do my best to hone in on my craft and then literally like the way it all happened was I I focused on that, I did my best, I'd made I made a reel just to get myself on camera because I have no credits, and did all of this, submitted myself for a million things that I never heard back about.

[46:38] Cassadee Pope: And then I went to this like gala where I sang because I came as like an artist representing um it was like the entertain entertainment community fun gala and I sang representing Warner um Warner, yeah. And then I met a producer and she's the producer of Titanic, and I mentioned that I'm an actress and that I'm working on that and then fast forward I get I like got asked to audition for something and this and that was like five months later. And that was when I w I wasn't like, you know, begging her for a meeting. I wasn't like hitting her up every week. It's like so I I I get frustrated with myself. I get like, come on, Cassike, you know that this is not this isn't the the road to where you want to go. Like it's always been do find joy, do what makes you happy, like try and get better at whatever you're going working towards, and then it'll happen. But I don't always take my own advice.

[47:38] Robert Peterpaul: It's easier said than done sometimes.

[47:40] Cassadee Pope: But I think it's really cool that you you mentioned surrender, and I think a lot of people equate that with defeat, but you said surrender in a very active way. Like I think surrendering can be active. It doesn't mean you're just gonna lay on the couch with you know peanut butter-filled pretzels, which is super specific. And like I totally do that. Maybe something. Sounds like you like those. But Nutella, what are we doing? But you know, I feel I feel like it can be active, like it can still be moving you forward. And there's something to be said for knowing when to just take a pause.

[48:10] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[48:10] Cassadee Pope: So being sort of a leader and then a boss in the sense of putting together your concerts and being your own quote unquote brand, which is such a tricky funny word sometimes. I I guess what's your favorite kind of collaboration, especially as you go into the theater world? Like, what's your favorite way to work with someone and now in this like very tight-knit ensemble? What what are you enjoying?

[48:31] Cassadee Pope: I I love being up there with an ensemble and it being all of us and um it not feeling I don't feel the pressure of like, oh, we didn't sell out, you know, if that if that was my concert and I was on tour. A big barometer of like success is if you sell out your tour, sell out your concert, and I don't have that pressure here. I am doing my job and I'm enjoying it. And if the houses aren't full, like I I'm not in charge of promo. I'm not paying money to get those ads out there. It's it's I do not miss that. I will tell you that. Like I don't miss being my own marketing person, my own social media manager, my own everything. And in this and this current chapter of my life, all I am doing is being an artist.

And that is something I haven't been able to do in really long time. So I'm really enjoying that. And again, like being a student again. Like I I I love getting notes. I love applying them because I I think in in music, like I've been doing it for so long that like I rarely get a producer being like, Hey, can you sing it this way? 'Cause they're like, you sing the way you sing and people know your voice and that's the way it is. So no one ever gives me any direction. So I just I do what I do. But in in acting, it's like I get to mess around with things that like if I my instinct was to go this way and you tell me, hey, try it this way, that's fun for me. That's not like terrifying or like I I'm not gonna not try it because I disagree with you. Like I just that that to me is just is um again playing and like like okay, let's see, let's see how this feels in my body. So like I really enjoy that too. That's been awesome.

[50:29] Robert Peterpaul: That's really fun. And and and it sounds like it's been awesome, but I'm guessing it's not all sunshine puppy sh and roche.

[50:37] Cassadee Pope: No, sorry, this is a really bad transition. I'm wondering, Cassie. I don't know. Probably blacking out. I wonder how are you kind to yourself? You know, this is a long Broadway run. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of energy, late nights, um, you know, there's a lot of stuff that comes with it. So whether it's now or when you're on tour, just what are the things you do to fill up your own cup?

[50:57] Cassadee Pope: I d I try and not book myself up like with social stuff too much. Um I I it's important for me to see my friends, and it's important to have those times where you unwind and like catch up with people you love, but I definitely am more conservative with doing that these days and people totally understand and no one's made me feel bad about it, which is great. I mean, I'm I I stay in touch with friends and everything, but like I'm not seeing a friend every week. Like I'm maybe like it's once like every couple weeks or a month or something. Um that ensemble becomes like your friends and your family, so you sort of feel like you're still being social even though it's a job.

[51:39] Robert Peterpaul: Exactly.

[51:40] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, like you're you're hanging out backstage and you, you know, two show days, you're with them basically the whole day. So for sure. I don't feel deprived of s a social life, thankfully.

[51:51] Robert Peterpaul: Um, good. That's that was my main question.

[51:53] Cassadee Pope: Yes. And something that I it took me and still still not used to it, took me a while to get used to was calling out. Um, and I just had to call out. I I d had no choice. And the amount of support and encouragement from everyone cast, um, crew members, everybody being like like this is a normal thing. It happens, people call out. This isn't a concert where you you're on tour and you're gonna lose all the money that you put into this tour because you're canceling this one show. Like this is kind of how it goes. And you you don't come back until you feel like you can really come back. And I'm like, what do you what? Like it's just I it didn't compute, you know. So um that's that's another thing.

Um so fee, not really like going into a shame spiral if I get sick and have to call out and don't want to risk getting the rest of the the cast sick, or I don't want to, you know, go up there and not do the best I can do and make the musical worse, you know. So stuff like that. That has been overall has made me more kind to myself.

[53:17] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

[53:19] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, it's important because I mean, as someone who recently had COVID and had to learn how to get out of things, which was also another reason why it was okay that we rescheduled because I would have had even more brain fog than I still have. This one's this one's been bad.

[53:33] Robert Peterpaul: I'm so sorry.

[53:34] Cassadee Pope: Oh, you're you you don't seem like you have brain fog. That's crazy.

[53:38] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, thank you.

[53:38] Cassadee Pope: Snap crackle pop. I'm here. You're there you're doing it. It's tough, but yeah, I think you do have to learn how to be kind to yourself in that way. And I'm so grateful that you've gotten to be welcomed by this Broadway community, and with that in mind, I have a surprise game.

[53:56] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[53:56] Cassadee Pope: It's called the compliment game.

[53:58] Robert Peterpaul: Ooh.

[53:59] Cassadee Pope: And I reached out to someone in your life for a loving statement about you, maybe from the Broadway community, which is maybe how this segue connected. And I'm gonna read it to you, and then you just have to guess who said it.

[54:11] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[54:12] Cassadee Pope: Okay, but I do have a hint to make it like a little bit easier. And this one, this was from a friend, a previous guest slash friend, who uh what knew what this was, so they got excited. I almost said the pronouns. Okay. They got excited, but I can yeah, I can give you this hint if you need it. I don't know if you will.

[54:27] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[54:28] Cassadee Pope: Okay. Oh, and you get like three guesses.

[54:31] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, good.

[54:32] Cassadee Pope: Yes or no questions. There's there's really no rules, but people freak out if I don't say rules, but I I don't know anything.

[54:38] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[54:39] Cassadee Pope: So there's rules. Three three guesses only.

[54:43] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[54:45] Cassadee Pope: Everyone's beautiful in their own way. It's the compliments game on me. Yay! Okay. It's the compliment. Compliment. Yay! Mump. You're one of the most down-to-earth and unabashedly goofy humans I've ever met, whose talent matches the immense goodness in your heart. Whatever a day throws at you, witnessing you navigate those challenges with grace brings an immense gratitude working alongside you. You break my heart in the best way every day.

[55:20] Robert Peterpaul: Well, then the rest is kind of a hardcore hint. Should I keep going? Do you need it?

[55:23] Cassadee Pope: Um is it Daniel Yearwood?

[55:28] Robert Peterpaul: With the last 20 minutes of Rolling Thunder.

[55:31] Cassadee Pope: Yes, it's Daniel Yurwood! I just said it's Daniel. I can't believe I guessed that right.

[55:37] Robert Peterpaul: That was r that was actually very impressive. I didn't even finish it.

[55:40] Cassadee Pope: Oh, okay. Okay. Let me just finish.

[55:43] Robert Peterpaul: You want me to start from the beginning?

[55:45] Cassadee Pope: No. I'm so so bad at taking compliments. What did he say?

[55:48] Cassadee Pope: Oh he said, You are the best human on earth. Um, they should let Drew carry a Kleenex in his pocket because y'all are in it and incredible each show. People better get ready with some tissues as you hold these audiences in the palm of your hand. What? P.S. You're always invited to the dance party. Sincerely, P B buddy, little smiley face, Mr. Daniel Yearwood, who is just such a gem of a human.

[56:14] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you, Daniel.

[56:15] Cassadee Pope: Thank you, Daniel. Well, he mentioned that he uh he gets sad when he comes out at the end and I'm crying. Not hopefully it doesn't spoil anything. Um could be crying for any reason. But yeah, he mentioned that. That's kind of what like got me thinking it's him. But that is so sweet. Isn't he such a gem? I gotta give him a big hug. Speaking of kindness, like he's such a kind soul.

[56:39] Cassadee Pope: And the voice of an angel. Oh my goodness. I'm so glad that he's in the show in this track, because he's shining, as are all of you. And to quote one of your older songs, because I'm so corny, run, don't walk, people. Anytime you get to see Cassidy sing, including in Rolling Thunder, but you don't have much time left. So please get tickets to this show. Cassidy, it's been such a pleasure, and I would just love if we could end this time together by you sharing a tangible kindness tip. So something for our listeners to do on their own corner of the world to make it a little bit better.

[57:16] Cassadee Pope: Um, next time you think something nice about someone, say it out loud. Even if it's sitting at home and you think of a friend and you think about like this funny thing they said once, or you see someone walking down the street and you love their shoes, just just tell them, reach out to them, let them know in the moment because those thoughts come and go so frequently, and we we forget to let them out. So, yeah. And imagine if we all did that, how happy the world would be.

[57:21] Robert Peterpaul: So happy.

[57:21] Cassadee Pope: Walking down the street, it might be too much. You might have to say, okay, okay. I just need to be alone right now. And everyone's like, I love your shoes, I love your hat.

[57:50] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's true.

[57:51] Cassadee Pope: Yeah, it might be too crazy.

[57:54] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's a little too crazy.

[57:55] Cassadee Pope: But if you're feeling crazy, try it out, everybody. I think that's an excellent tip. And I am so grateful that you took the time to do this. Thank you, Cassidy.

[58:01] Cassadee Pope: Thanks for having me. Break a leg on the rest of your run.

[58:05] Cassadee Pope: Thank you so much. This was lovely. Until next time, remember, everything is gonna be a okay.