This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jacqueline Lindsay: Kindness.

[0:01] Jacqueline Lindsay: Why kindness?

[0:02] Jacqueline Lindsay: Because it makes a difference for connection.

[0:05] Jacqueline Lindsay: Kindness can change lives.

[0:07] Jacqueline Lindsay: It's contagious.

[0:07] Jacqueline Lindsay: The sign says you'll be glad you did.

[0:09] Jacqueline Lindsay: Kindness is the key to a healthier, happier world.

[0:13] Jacqueline Lindsay: Why kindness?

[0:15] Jacqueline Lindsay: While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear.

[0:19] Jacqueline Lindsay: Kindness is something we all know.

[0:21] Jacqueline Lindsay: But do we know why it matters?

[0:23] Jacqueline Lindsay: I'm your host, Jacqueline Lindsay, co-founder CEO of Kindness.org.

[0:27] Jacqueline Lindsay: And you're listening to Why Kindness.

[0:33] Jacqueline Lindsay: Hello, friends. This is Jacqueline Lindsay, and you're listening to the Why Kindness Podcast.

[0:39] Jacqueline Lindsay: You're probably wondering why I sound like I have an intense cold.

[0:43] Jacqueline Lindsay: And that's because, surprise, it's not actually Jacqueline at all.

[0:46] Robert Peterpaul: It's Jacqueline's friend, Robert Peterpaul, that kind of rhymed.

[0:50] Robert Peterpaul: I'm so honored to be sitting in Jacqueline's chair today, taking over the Why Kindness Podcast to bring you a very special episode of Why Kindness, this World Kindness Week.

[1:01] Robert Peterpaul: Say that five times fast.

[1:02] Robert Peterpaul: Why kindness, World Kindness Week, why kindness in honor of a really exciting new venture that we have planned for you all.

[1:08] Robert Peterpaul: I am privileged to be the social media director of kindness.org, which has been certainly one of the highlights of my digital career.

[1:15] Robert Peterpaul: I became connected to the org very organically because I have my own podcast called The Art of Kindness, and my journey here has had a lot of synergy, which I bring up because I feel like it is what kindness.org runs on.

[1:27] Robert Peterpaul: Everything is very intentional and all our partnerships and people are very meaningful.

[1:32] Robert Peterpaul: So I won't blab on about me. I just thought you should know who this Muppet in your ears is.

[1:38] Robert Peterpaul: Today I am joined by what I consider to be a trifecta of terrificness.

[1:44] Robert Peterpaul: Three friends, co-workers, change makers, doctors that I admire immensely.

[1:50] Robert Peterpaul: I'm going to let each of them introduce themselves so you can get used to each voice in your ear.

[1:55] Robert Peterpaul: Spoiler alert, you'll probably recognize at least two of them.

[1:58] Robert Peterpaul: And in that intro, I'll have you each also answer the question that's always asked on this podcast to stay consistent.

[2:06] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, it's the title. Why kindness?

[2:08] Robert Peterpaul: It only feels right to start, I think, with the birthday boy here.

[2:12] Robert Peterpaul: That's right, we got a birthday in the house. Dr. Oliver Scott Curry, please begin by introducing yourself and then answering the question, why kindness?

[2:20] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here again. Yeah, my name's Dr. Oliver Scott Curry, and I'm Chief Science Officer for Kindness.org.

[2:29] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And why kindness? Well, um, I can't remember what I said last time, but because it's a very accessible and rewarding way to make the world a better place.

[2:41] Robert Peterpaul: I love that. And I hope it was different than last time. That's so beautiful. If you want to pass it on, anybody who feels moved and step into the audio void.

[2:50] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Okay, hello. Thanks for having me. I'm Dr. Chloe San Miguel. I'm the research manager at kindness.org.

[2:58] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And in terms of why kindness, I think if it's not a good enough reason that it's good for everyone around you if you're kind, it's also good for yourself. So there's sort of selfish motivations to be kind as well, I think.

[3:14] Robert Peterpaul: That's so true. And it's science, correct?

[3:18] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Yeah, correct.

[3:21] Robert Peterpaul: Well, let's see up certainly last but not least, our CEO and co-founder, the hostess with the most is Miss Jacqueline Lindsay.

[3:29] Jacqueline Lindsay: Thank you. I'm so it feels a little funny being on the side of the interview, but I'm so excited to be here in this capacity. Um yes, Jacqueline Lindsay here.

[3:41] Jacqueline Lindsay: I think you all know me. I'll go straight to my why kindness. Um I sincerely feel it's the most important through line to solve every modern problem in society.

[3:52] Jacqueline Lindsay: And I just think our world would be immensely better if it was at the forefront of how we showed up as humans every single day.

[4:01] Robert Peterpaul: I couldn't agree more. And especially this week, World Kindness Week, it's more important than ever. And also this birthday we'll say.

[4:09] Robert Peterpaul: Now, with all these answers, I just want to set the tone that we do reserve the rights to change our minds. It's ever evolving, so there's no pressure there on you all.

[4:18] Robert Peterpaul: I know listeners have heard a bit about your backstory, Jacqueline, your powerful story, the origin story that led you to kindness.org, and Dr. Curry here as well as had an episode. Please go back and listen if you have not to those.

[4:29] Robert Peterpaul: So Dr. San Miguel, would you mind briefly sharing with us your journey to kindness?

[4:35] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Yeah, absolutely. And you can call me Chloe for up again. Um please do.

[4:41] Robert Peterpaul: She is a doctor though, don't forget it.

[4:44] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Thank you. It was, you know, a lot of school. So it is nice to hear it every once in a while. But um, yeah, so I found kindness.org when I was still finishing up my PhD when I was still in graduate school, and I was just sort of scoping out the job market, which is scary to do, but sort of keeping an eye on things, getting ready to graduate.

[5:04] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And I thought a job listing for at the time, just a part-time research assistant. And I thought, well, I can do that right now. I don't need to wait to graduate to get in there.

[5:14] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So I applied very eagerly and I felt really strongly about it that I was I really hoped I would get at least an interview so I could learn more about the organization and just talk with everyone if nothing else.

[5:26] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Um and it just worked out perfectly and I'll be able to come on more and more hours and then eventually full time and just yeah synergistically like you said it just lined up perfectly and and now I've been here oh over over a year.

[5:39] Robert Peterpaul: I don't think like two yet.

[5:42] Robert Peterpaul: And we're so glad you're here. And I think that kind of perfectly teases up for our next question, which is that I know for me when I first connected with the organization and Jacqueline I felt like it was a rare experience because when do you get to sort of hop on a call with the CEO and the leader almost immediately.

[5:59] Robert Peterpaul: And this sort of brings up a question I've had for a while, which is when I look at you Jacqueline, our kind leader who everyone in this audio room admires and so many people do.

[6:08] Robert Peterpaul: What is sort of your secret sauce to being such a kind leader? I know we have research to support the fact that kind leaders are better leaders overall, but I'd love if you could kind of distill your approach to leadership here.

[6:21] Jacqueline Lindsay: I will say I just think it's an easier way to show up. I know that I got to where I was in my career because of the kindness of others who were willing to give me their time and mentorship and wisdom and support and I do genuinely feel it's a healthier, more fun way to live and lead and be a part of a team and culture.

[6:45] Jacqueline Lindsay: Some days it's hard and I have to try really hard to show you know with a smile um if I'm having a tough day or something like that. But then I remember we're also all people bringing in our own things and so I think the power of kindness is that it's not always about showing up with a smile.

[7:02] Jacqueline Lindsay: It's more just showing up real and being messy sometimes and being okay to know that we're all humans navigating this big, messy, complicated world.

[7:12] Jacqueline Lindsay: And we're showing up at this organization. Everyone's here, I feel with no ego. And so I don't need to have ego in this. You know, my heart and desire is for the mission and doing work that makes a difference in the world.

[7:28] Jacqueline Lindsay: And I just want to do that alongside people who are smart and committed and passionate. So if I get to do that, which I do every day, three of you are walking, breathing examples of that, it's humbling.

[7:38] Jacqueline Lindsay: And my desire is to hopefully lead in a way that inspires everyone to want to show up and do their best.

[7:44] Robert Peterpaul: Well, thank you for doing that. It's so special. And I feel like I probably sound like a broken record here because every time I talk to you on Slack, I'm like, I appreciate you, you're the best, but you are.

[7:53] Robert Peterpaul: And I think I bring it up this week because World Kindness Week is a special time where we get to inspire new kindness leaders. We're hoping everyone can activate kindness, and you two doctors certainly are leaders as well.

[8:06] Robert Peterpaul: So feel free to chime in here. But what's interesting to me is that I would imagine being a leader of an organization called kindness.org.

[8:14] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, even sort of when I asked you the question, I saw this like, I don't know, I'm just sort of me across your face, which is probably why you are who you are.

[8:22] Robert Peterpaul: But I feel like it can come with a lot of pressure, right? I mean, our mission is to study kindness, and the pressure to be kind is I think relatable as a person across the board.

[8:31] Robert Peterpaul: I find you do a beautiful job with this. I mean, I sort of will compare you to um the people's princess, Princess Diana, in a way, that's right. I did just compare you to Princess Diana.

[8:40] Robert Peterpaul: I just feel like you um you're very attainable and yet you still sit in a power position, which is really hard. And so I wonder how you navigate that pressure.

[9:02] Jacqueline Lindsay: Uh well, I credit my parents for teaching me you never look down on someone unless you're helping them up. And so I do genuinely just approach a person as a person.

[9:13] Jacqueline Lindsay: I don't care about their title, their pocketbook paycheck, like their accolades, none of that's relevant to me. I just try to look at everyone as a person.

[9:25] Jacqueline Lindsay: And I think seeing that has allowed me to really treat everyone equally and with dignity and worthy of respect and care and compassion. And I hope that that translates in how I show up as a leader with my team.

[9:39] Jacqueline Lindsay: And second to that, or you know, related, I would say from day one, I've really embraced the idea that you hire smarter than you. So I know I'm not the smartest person at the table, and I'm here to be inspired by everybody.

[9:54] Jacqueline Lindsay: So I want to work alongside people that make me better, and there's mutual respect. So it's not so much top-down, but it's all of us around the table bringing our different talents and skills and knowledge to do this work collectively and collaboratively.

[10:11] Robert Peterpaul: So at the top of your answer, you actually mentioned things that are measurable, which is really interesting, I find. I don't even know if you realize doing it, but measured things that sort of are holding value, and we're gonna get into that while I bring that up here.

[10:23] Robert Peterpaul: But before we do, perhaps we throw it to the people that are definitely at least smarter than I, the doctors, our organization, to set some context. If you listen to the show, you know this, but it starts and ends with the science of kindness, and I think that's what makes it so special and unique.

[10:38] Robert Peterpaul: I'd love to know if there has been one piece of research that either of you have worked on in regards to kindness that felt the most pivotal to you. I know they're probably all your babies, but it would be great to get one piece of research that you feel like really struck you, even the first that comes to mind today.

[10:56] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Uh Rob, I wanted to make a meta point before we get there, just from what Jacqueline said about how to be how to be kind.

[11:04] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Please do.

[11:05] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And I just wanted to say that for me at least, it comes from doing science. So I think there's a stereotype of scientists that they're know-it-all, they're arrogant, they're masters of the universe, they meddle with things they shouldn't understand and tell everyone what to do.

[11:20] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: But that's an example of science gone wrong. The reality of science is you're always dealing with things that you don't understand, and most of the time you are finding out that you're wrong, and most of the discoveries you make are how wrong you are.

[11:33] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So doing science, doing research enforces humility, intellectual humility. You're constantly reminded that you never know if you're right and you're often wrong, that anything you think you could always be wrong about anything you think.

[11:47] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: That's true in principle and when it comes to hardcore science, but I find that's also the case just on a more interpersonal level.

[11:53] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Like it's always the case that your plan or your suggestion or whatever could be you do your best, but it could be wrong, it could be improved upon, and it can be improved upon by others.

[12:03] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Trying to be scientific, trying to figure things out is very much a commitment to, for example, being open to other people's ideas because good ideas can come from anywhere and you don't have a monopoly on them.

[12:14] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Chloe, you can tell me tell us whether I managed to whether I can't carry that out. But that's certainly my intention, and that comes, you know, I'm that's mainlined from basic philosophy of science.

[12:24] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you for sharing that. I feel like you can't complete the circle if you're not open. Does that make sense?

[12:34] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: No, I just I think that there's the adage of the more you learn, the less you know, and no one's been in more classrooms than people with PhDs and have been forced to learn and learn and learn.

[12:43] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So I think we we're very aware of the limits of our knowledge and what we don't know and who could be a better expert than us, you know, on different topics.

[12:52] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And when you said like these people smarter than me, I made a little bit of a face because it was like, oh no, we're not smarter than you, we're just smart in different ways.

[12:58] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: We're you know, we have a very sort of focused research area. I would never know how to produce a podcast or host one.

[13:05] Robert Peterpaul: So no, I appreciate that. I'm a very self-deprecating little Muppet, which um I don't know, it's just part of my DNA, I guess.

[13:12] Robert Peterpaul: But I would love to know if either of you sort of have that pivotal piece of research. It can be a recent one or a first one that made you feel like, okay, this is fertile ground, this is exciting.

[13:23] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Generally speaking, it's a very exciting time to be working on kindness and pro-social behavior and cooperation and morality and all and all the things, just because whereas once upon a time it was a purely sort of philosophical area of inquiry, now there's tons of amazing research on genetics and computer simulations and animal behavior and psychology and neuroscience and anthropology and economics and blah blah blah.

[13:50] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Um so there's just tons we know about it that we didn't um before. So there's lots of amazing examples. I think one of the things that I've learned about more recently and is very striking is just how early the capacity for kindness in various ways emerges in infants, some only a few months old.

[14:10] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So there's experiments, for example, showing that babies, four-month old babies, have the beginning of a sense of fairness. They can they they watch little vignettes where puppets are given different numbers of cookies, um, and they are they are they notice and are surprised when, for example, the cookies are not given out evenly, when one of the puppets is treated unfairly.

[14:30] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And it's similar for other aspects of kindness, not just fairness, but helping groupmates or helping members of family or turning favors or recognizing who owns things and what you know what constitutes stealing, lots of different types of good behavior and bad behavior.

[14:44] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Um so the fact that these things spring up, you know, so early before babies can eat, you know, obviously before they can they can talk, um, is is amazing to me.

[14:53] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And although it's not conclusive, it certainly suggests very strongly that the or supports the theory that humans have a range of innate capacities for kindness that come online surprisingly swiftly.

[15:06] Jaclyn Lindsey: That innate kindness is so special. I feel like sometimes we're almost polishing the fossil in some people in a lot of ways, because everyone has the kindness within them. And so all this research sort of helps to peel back the onion layers. Too many metaphors coming in here. My grandma always talked about how if one baby cries in the incubation room at the hospital, then all the rest will cry because of that empathy. I don't know if that's a true study. You can cite me on that, but I know I certainly always ask these questions to Chloe, our doctor. Saying Miguel, I can't stop. Because we have so much fun month to month, sort of thinking of how our signs can show up on social media at least. Has any research stood out to you recently that you really vibed with?

[15:49] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Well, you know, when you asked the question, I thought you were asking research that we've been like a part of or done ourselves. So my mind got kind of stuck on that better project that we've done. Um and I think it just coming into kindness.org and seeing how Kind Lab operationalized kindness for me was sort of very interesting and neat because I was sort of familiar with positive psychology of the field and sort of pro-sociality measures, which is the boring word for kindness in academia. Um and there's sort of self-report measures where you're sort of taking people's face value words, you know, would you do this kind thing or this kind of thing? Yes or no. Whereas in Kind Lab, not just jump the gun and get ahead here, but in the kindness questionnaire and the KQ, we operationalize kindness in a really sort of interesting way that builds off of past research on welfare trade-off ratios, and it was just new to me and more exciting than the typical self-report measure, which is what I had always worked in and with. So, uh yeah, just our way that we're actually defining it is really interesting.

[16:57] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yeah, I think this is the perfect time to bring up the questionnaire in the room, which is all of our research and work, it really feels like it has led up to this magnificent moment in time that you all have really shepherded, and I'm gonna help hopefully amplify. First of all, what is a KQ? Let's tell the people out there what they can expect to find on Kindness.org this week. I'll throw it to Jaclyn because she hasn't spoken in a bit.

[17:26] Jaclyn Lindsey: What I'll do is give the background and context of how the KQ came to be, and then I'll have Kind Lab speak to more about what it is and how to contextualize it for the audience. Um, so Oliver and Dr. Curry and I have worked together now eight years, and I felt my narrative of our working relationship is I had this really tall order for him when he officially joined us as a consultant, which was I need your help measuring kindness. And this was in response to wanting to position kindness as something that was indeed measurable. I think when kindness.org started, we were always committed to the science of kindness. But to Chloe's point, it was going beyond the positive psychology side and really looking at precision and a container for people to operate around within themselves.

What is kindness? Because it felt understood by everyone and yet personal to everyone, and everyone seemed to think of kindness differently, but we all knew what it was. And I really hope that kindness.org could be a launch pad for people to engage with kindness in a new and fresh and innovative kind of way. And I also wanted to be able to report back on the impact of kindness. If we're guiding people to choose kindness with acts like holding a door open for someone or smiling at a stranger or saying good morning to a neighbor, why? What is that really doing? What benefit is it offering? How effective are these choices? Could we start to create some kind of, uh, I don't know, rubric or, uh, tool guide for people?

And these were all the things that I brought to Oliver. Can we measure? Can we show the benefit of action? Can we show how this kind act can have an impact on somebody? Can we look at this across different kinds of people, different recipients? Can we look at it on ourselves and just really big theoretical stuff on a whiteboard? And over the past several years, that is what Kind Lab I think has set out to try to do is to figure out how do we measure it, and how do we then to the real through line of who kindness.org is, take the science and apply it into solutions, tools, products that are for the lay person to engage with. So taking it from an academic publication to then how does this matter or show up or mean something to the everyday person, wherever they are in the world, to come be a part of this journey with us. And then it was in the hands of Kind Lab to figure out. So that's how I would contextualize where we're at with this week and what we're launching.

[20:09] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Yes. Well, how did you figure that out, Kind Lab, that my Dr. Duo? I would love to know because it really is so accessible, it's so fun, it's so clean, it's so easy. It takes minutes to take this. And I know you've spent a lot more than just minutes. You spent many minutes on this process. Please elaborate for all of us.

[20:28] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Well, maybe I'll kick off Chloe. So, yeah, so like Jacqueline says, I think people tend to think of kindness as something fluffy and soft, and it can be, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's also a real thing, a real personality trait, a real thing you can do in the world that has consequences for you and others. Um, like I say, it's been the subject of a lot of very serious research. So, what we try to do is really combine two worlds, like combine the latest and best experimental psychology on measuring kindness with a more sort of accessible front end. So sometimes it's like the combination of cognitive science and Cosmopolitan magazine in that you get the best of both. And the basic idea behind the kindness questionnaire and your KQ when you take it, um, is that we think of kindness in terms of the ABCs, action taken to benefit others at some cost.

So it's paying a cost to benefit others. And previous work had measured the, and people differ in how kind they are, they differ in how much cost they're willing to pay for a given benefit to somebody else. So some people are very kind, they'll pay a large cost, even if it's just a small benefit to somebody else. Other people are less kind, they'll only pay a large cost if it's a large benefit to somebody else. And previous work had measured all this stuff with money. They'd use sort of money sharing tasks to say, for example, would you give up five dollars if that meant a stranger received ten dollars? Would you give up seven dollars if that meant a stranger received eight dollars? Um, and so on.

And by looking at people's answers to those kinds of questions, they could put a precise figure, a ratio on what cost willing people were willing to pay to benefit others. So what we've done is we've taken that exact same logic, but we've applied it to everyday acts of kindness. So things like would you hold a door open for, uh, in this case, a neighbor? Would you cover a neighbor's tab? Would you look after a neighbor's pet? Would you lend your neighbor a cup of sugar or whatever it is? And what we did was first of all, we gathered together a thousand different kind acts, things that you could do for others, including for your neighbors, and then we had ten thousand people rate these acts for how costly they were and how beneficial they were.

So now we have this huge database of a thousand acts of kindness rated for their cost and benefit, which allows us to do things like, um, figure out what are the easiest things to do, which are the most challenging things to do, which things are most beneficial, which things have the best, get the most bang for your buck. But it also enabled us to pull acts from that database to use as a questionnaire, and then we can ask people, okay, we can present people with a list of increasingly challenging things to do for neighbors or anyone else and see which things they're willing to do and which things they're not willing to do. And usually, you know, people are willing to do the low cost, high benefit things, but as the cost increases and the benefit decreases, people say, okay, yes, I'd do this, I'd do this, but I wouldn't do that.

I'll stop at this point. And people stop at different points. But because we have this information in the background about the cost and benefits, we can put a precise figure on how kind they are. To cut a long story short, that translates into your KQ. So it might be you might end up with a KQ of, uh, 50% or 75% or 100% or 110%. And what that means precisely, it's not just an arbitrary figure like, oh, you've scored seven out of ten. Um, it precisely means the percentage is how much you care about others relative to how much you care about yourself. So if you were to get a score, for example, of 100%, that means you care about other people the same 100% of the amount you care about yourself.

So you care about other people the same as yourself. Um, if you get a KQ of 50%, that means you care about other people half as much as you care about yourself. And you can get anything. You could also, you could even, you could have a KQ of 110%. That would mean that you care about other people more than you care about yourself. That's really interesting too, because that result actually may beckon the work to do a little self-kindness on yourself to make sure you're also not giving them an empty cup.

[24:36] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Yeah, there isn't a perfect number, there isn't the exact right amount. Um, and yes, you could, it's possible to be in principle, it's possible to be too kind just as it's possible to be, uh, too unkind or not kind enough. It depends, the optimal amount of kindness depends on your exact situation and what kind of person you are and what opportunities, social opportunities you have in your world.

[25:00] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yeah, thank you for breaking that down. I think what I'm also very curious about is this decision to focus on neighbors this time around. I know that's rooted in the research you just described, but Chloe maybe you can share the conversations you're having in Kind Lab about your hopes for the evolution of the KQ as it continues to grow. What sorts of questions are you hoping to add in or explore because I imagine it'll just keep growing and growing.

[25:28] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Right. So yeah, we tested the KQ with a number of different types of recipients, so family members and friends and neighbors and strangers. Um, and sort of the issue we're running into with family and friends is, uh, in a way we didn't find like the limit of how kind people will be to their friends and family. Everyone was reporting they would be very, very kind to their friends and family, which is good, um, but doesn't help us with, um, sort of getting a range of scores on a measure, right? So we wanted one that there would be a greater range of scores there. Oliver, you use, yeah, they were people, people were much kinder than we expected to family and friends, so they went off the top of the scale. So we have to recalibrate that one.

[26:10] Jaclyn Lindsey: Right.

[26:11] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Yeah. So neighbors is the one we're watching this is the KQ, which is great because people have different relationships with their neighbors, right? I just moved to this neighborhood. Um, I can count on one hand the number of times I've spoken to most of my neighbors. Most of ours are nonverbal interactions with waving and filing. So my score might look very different than it had when I lived in an apartment complex and was friends with the person across the street and hung out with them on a regular basis. So that relationship sort of matters. So expanding the KQ to encompass more relationships, closer relationships and then also relationships with strangers where you don't have much of a relationship.

[26:51] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yeah, it is so situational like you're saying which I think is wonderful because to Dr. Curry's point, there is no right or wrong answer. I wonder to get your best score, this is personally what I think I sort of struggled with, which is that I can go into this quiz almost lying to myself. So do you have any advice on when someone sits down to take the KQ how they can get their best score, how they can not lie to themselves, you know, how they can just sort of be very honest when they're answering these questions. I wonder if there's like a mindset that because we've all taken it that anyone's found to help them.

[27:28] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Well, I think if you, you know, if you want to find out how good a lawyer you are then if you want to find out how kind you are then you know obviously give your honest answer and make, you know, I found when doing it just imagine you're in that situation where the opportunity presents itself and what what's your impulse? What do you, um, what do you think you would you would honestly do? I think most psychology measures will instruct you to go with your gut to go with your first instinct um and not overthink it too much and get hung up on well in this situation, I might be able to say, or adding in other variables that aren't in the question in front of you. So just sort of going with your gut and yeah, trying to place yourself there. And then yeah, if you if you want to fly, you can.

[28:18] Jaclyn Lindsey: You know, it's funny for me to be taking the KQ this morning. I know how to get the high score. Um, but I had to sort of place myself in these situations and be truthful. And that's the only way you're gonna get your actual measure.

[28:33] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, going with your gut is great advice across the board in life. And I would love for the three of you to go with your gut as we enter a little flash round. Ding ding, chink ching. One thing kindness.org is also famous for that I've experienced at least virtually, are these lovely holiday parties where we have these really fun games, mostly developed by shout out Melissa, shout out to Melissa. And so I would love to sort of close this out with a little KQ flash round. As we've been talking about, kindness in relationship to neighbors is sort of the focus of the KQ as of now. Note neighbor, I believe, is still sort of left up for interpretation. It could literally be your neighbor, but it could be a bit more broad, I believe, in regards to these questions.

So I'm gonna ask questions, and whoever buzzes in first, which is just talking, honestly, will answer. Whoever answers the most wins something, and we'll see what that is. Uh, I would appreciate you could just pop in with whatever comes to your mind first. Doesn't have to be long, it can be super quick, and we'll we'll kind of fly through it. But hopefully it's fun for all of you. And this was developed by me, so it is not a science-based questionnaire. Let me put that little asterisk in here right now. Okay, are we ready? All right. The first one is, and again, whoever wants to jump in first, please dive into this wild kind ocean.

[29:59] Jaclyn Lindsey: Um we uh helped um our neighbor clean up debris um in their yard uh after a hurricane hit.

[30:09] Robert Peterpaul: That's beautiful, Jaclyn.

[30:11] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yes, I know that's so so timely, and so many people out there are helping each other in that regard, I'm hoping right now, which is wonderful.

[30:17] Robert Peterpaul: On the opposite side, starting off with a little softball, a kind act a neighbor has done for you.

[30:23] Jaclyn Lindsey: Um uh I have a very kind neighbor called Joe who works in a coffee company, and she she gives me a delightful range of coffee beans.

[30:33] Robert Peterpaul: Oh okay.

[30:34] Jaclyn Lindsey: The irony is not lost on me that that's a cup of Joe.

[30:41] Robert Peterpaul: Or a kind coffee.

[30:43] Jaclyn Lindsey: Kind coffee little plug there.

[30:44] Robert Peterpaul: I am drinking kind coffee right now.

[30:45] Jaclyn Lindsey: Not not lying, I love it.

[30:48] Jaclyn Lindsey: Mushroom based.

[30:49] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, the next one is what's the kindest compliment you've been given by a neighbor.

[30:55] Jaclyn Lindsey: Saying I've uh had neighbors uh a neighbor c compliment my kids.

[31:03] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yeah, so you just feel so proud.

[31:05] Jaclyn Lindsey: Like mom moment that they have noticed them.

[31:09] Robert Peterpaul: That's the best.

[31:10] Robert Peterpaul: Okay, a kind welcoming act to a new neighbor that you've received or given.

[31:17] Jaclyn Lindsey: I think I'm I lived in the college apartment, and I was people were moving in as I was moving out, and I just gave a lot of my stuff to people.

[31:27] Jaclyn Lindsey: And it was sort of benefited myself as well because one less thing, I have to move, but they got you know, window air conditioning units and and such out of it.

[31:35] Jaclyn Lindsey: So that's I think it was a win-win for both of us.

[31:37] Robert Peterpaul: That's so kind.

[31:39] Jaclyn Lindsey: I just got a flashback to my mom throwing everything from my college drum bright into the dumpster as we were moving out.

[31:46] Robert Peterpaul: Not doubt my mom.

[31:48] Robert Peterpaul: What is the word that comes to mind besides kind or kindness when you think of your dream neighborhood?

[31:54] Jaclyn Lindsey: Community.

[31:55] Jaclyn Lindsey: Um, in that I'm very lucky to live in a very uh nice village where everyone lots everyone knows each other, all our kids go to the same school, there's lots of overlap, we go to the same do's, we pick up each other's kids from the school, and so just that sort of network creates so many opportunities to help and be helped.

[32:15] Jaclyn Lindsey: Um it's extremely valuable and appreciated.

[32:20] Robert Peterpaul: I love that.

[32:21] Robert Peterpaul: And looking at a community, if you were throwing a neighborhood block party, what theme would it be?

[32:28] Jaclyn Lindsey: I think ding thing.

[32:30] Jaclyn Lindsey: I'm gonna have to go with whatever holidays nearby.

[32:32] Jaclyn Lindsey: I love a seasonal holiday theme.

[32:34] Robert Peterpaul: There we go.

[32:35] Robert Peterpaul: I love that a pop culture or famous figure that you think would make the ideal neighbor and why.

[32:41] Jaclyn Lindsey: Oh, ding thing, Mr. Rogers.

[32:42] Jaclyn Lindsey: Famously the best neighbor.

[32:45] Robert Peterpaul: Oh yeah.

[32:46] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yeah, that's a really good one.

[32:48] Jaclyn Lindsey: I'll I'll I'll ding and say I'd love the Obamas next to me.

[32:51] Jaclyn Lindsey: It just they'd be great neighbors.

[32:54] Robert Peterpaul: Well, you share your book list and I like just I want to say Jim Henson for some reason, but it might be because you mentioned Muffets earlier.

[33:04] Jaclyn Lindsey: That would be so funny.

[33:05] Jaclyn Lindsey: And I'll just say Dolly Parton, because we're all Dolly.

[33:08] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[33:09] Robert Peterpaul: Or any of you.

[33:11] Robert Peterpaul: Uh uh, what's one small science based act of kindness everyone around the world could do for a neighbor this week and beyond?

[33:20] Jaclyn Lindsey: Go ask if you can help them with anything.

[33:22] Robert Peterpaul: I love that.

[33:23] Robert Peterpaul: I'm I'm gonna have all of you answer that because it's it's the science.

[33:27] Jaclyn Lindsey: Strike up a conversation with someone with a neighbor that you haven't spoken to before.

[33:32] Jaclyn Lindsey: Um because uh who knows, it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

[33:38] Robert Peterpaul: Hmm.

[33:39] Robert Peterpaul: I love that.

[33:39] Robert Peterpaul: What is I'm thinking of shows like Boy Meets World and then also what's the one?

[33:43] Robert Peterpaul: Was it Tool Time?

[33:44] Robert Peterpaul: There's the Tim Allen show where he always talks to the neighbor.

[33:47] Jaclyn Lindsey: Home improvement behind the fence.

[33:49] Robert Peterpaul: Those are some of the best scenes.

[33:50] Robert Peterpaul: It's just connecting with the neighbor.

[33:51] Robert Peterpaul: You don't even see the face.

[33:53] Robert Peterpaul: Chloe, I feel like you you also can answer this question well.

[33:57] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And it's sort of similar to Oliver's.

[33:59] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: I think introducing yourself to a neighbor that you don't know because that will sort of open the door to other future acts of kindness.

[34:06] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: It's hard to be to be kind to someone you've never even touched face with before.

[34:10] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So rip that band aid off.

[34:13] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And the and the research shows, experiments show that although people are often reluctant to do that, if they do, they they're glad that they did.

[34:20] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: They uh find it much more rewarding than they thought they would.

[34:25] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: It really can change the whole energy in the room.

[34:28] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: I know when I'm on my walk, if I smile at someone, I mean when I used to have a mask on during the pandemic, it was sort of eye-bulging, and that was maybe a little creepy looking back.

[34:35] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: But whenever I do smile at someone now, I feel so much better as I continue my walk, and then they smile and they smile at someone else, and it's that beautiful ripple effect.

[34:44] Robert Peterpaul: As we have just completed this flash round, I will say the winner is wait, okay.

[34:49] Robert Peterpaul: This just in.

[34:50] Robert Peterpaul: Each of you has actually taken our KQ.

[34:53] Robert Peterpaul: I have all of your scores here and can reveal who KQ has deemed at this moment in time the kindest.

[35:01] Robert Peterpaul: And that will be our actual winner.

[35:03] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[35:06] Robert Peterpaul: The moment we've all been waiting for.

[35:10] Robert Peterpaul: The human with the highest kindness quotient is each of them have sent me their scores this morning, fresh out of a cup of Joe, the kind coffee.

[35:22] Robert Peterpaul: To no surprise.

[35:25] Robert Peterpaul: Jaclyn Lindsey!

[35:27] Jaclyn Lindsey: Woo!

[35:29] Robert Peterpaul: I do want to flag.

[35:31] Robert Peterpaul: May I share each of your scores?

[35:32] Jaclyn Lindsey: Is that or is that okay?

[35:33] Robert Peterpaul: Sure, yeah.

[35:34] Robert Peterpaul: As of now.

[35:35] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[35:36] Robert Peterpaul: I do want to flag this because I think it's it's really cool.

[35:39] Robert Peterpaul: Jaclyn at 89% won.

[35:42] Robert Peterpaul: Chloe was in the middle with 73.

[35:45] Robert Peterpaul: And Oliver was at 64.

[35:48] Robert Peterpaul: And I think that's really special to hear because the people that actually created this quotient took it seriously and answered honestly.

[35:58] Robert Peterpaul: And we're not just trying to tell you that we all received 100%, which might not even be the right answer.

[36:04] Jaclyn Lindsey: So how what how are you all feeling getting your scrolls?

[36:07] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: There really isn't a winner.

[36:08] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: I misspoke early one, and 64% is actually the best score.

[36:16] Jaclyn Lindsey: I thought so.

[36:17] Jaclyn Lindsey: I thought so.

[36:18] Jaclyn Lindsey: I mean, it is your birthday, so maybe we should round up.

[36:22] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: I uh I want to say a general thing, like um, I think that sometimes uh a cynic might think that that oh people people don't care about others at all, and that they might expect that people taking this test would all come out with zero percent.

[36:37] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: They don't they don't care about other people at all, they wouldn't put themselves out for others at all.

[36:41] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And it's easy to believe that sometimes if you just look at the the headlines, but I think one of to me, another interesting finding in general is that uh that's not that's not the case, and in all of the research that's been that's been done using this this kind of uh methodology, the the typical KQs are always in double figures, always somewhere north of um 50%.

[37:03] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And even so I'm trying to think of the lowest ones, even I think the lowest ones I've seen are something like 30% to strangers.

[37:09] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So even it's not the case that people would do wouldn't even cross the road to to help a stranger uh you know in distress.

[37:17] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: That there's a there's a baseline of kindness that that everyone practices and uh sort of can rely on that's that's way above uh zero, and then beyond that, it you know it's all gravy when you're talking about not just strangers but colleagues or neighbors or family or friends.

[37:33] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Um it's really very uh the results are really very encouraging, and um we're all reflecting different aspects of that normal curve, but the but the average is is um heartwarmingly high.

[37:48] Jaclyn Lindsey: That is heartwarming to hear, very heartlifting.

[37:50] Jaclyn Lindsey: And I think what's important to note too is what we're saying, that this round of KQ is focused on neighbors.

[37:56] Jaclyn Lindsey: So there's a question about taking in a neighbor's child.

[38:00] Jaclyn Lindsey: Just because you aren't in the position to take a child in doesn't mean that you aren't gonna help find the child a home.

[38:06] Jaclyn Lindsey: It does it doesn't mean that you're not being kind to your own family by not adding to it.

[38:10] Jaclyn Lindsey: I mean, there's sort of other outliers that we can remember when we get these scores as well.

[38:18] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Yeah, I think I'd love to add to that.

[38:20] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: I hadn't taken this until today.

[38:22] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So that really honestly, this is my first time going through it for neighbor.

[38:27] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: It felt fresh and new, and uh taking it, I went with my gut and I try to be really thoughtful, like that one about the ch taking a child in.

[38:36] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And what I wanna remind anyone who takes it, kindness is so many things.

[38:44] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And this is one facet of how you take action to help other people and uh your willingness to help other people.

[38:53] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And sometimes people argue with me, they're like, Well, you should focus on teaching compassion for people.

[38:58] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And I think all of the idea of kindness is choice and and how we take action to help others.

[39:05] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So if you feel compassion for someone but don't do anything about it, that person's not getting the benefit of your compassion.

[39:13] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: So this is really meant and intended what I felt to think about it more.

[39:18] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: How do I show up as a neighbor?

[39:20] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And to get into a dialogue with myself and maybe those around me.

[39:24] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: How are we choosing kindness?

[39:26] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: How are we taking action to help others?

[39:28] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: How are we showing up as a neighbor?

[39:30] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: And I think that was encouraging.

[39:33] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Like you can't game the system, you know.

[39:35] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: It's just meant to really start to get you to think about your own kindness and hopefully motivate you to do something a little different um when you go home and show up in your neighborhood.

[39:45] Robert Peterpaul: Uh that that's what I held on to, and that's what I would encourage listeners to remember.

[39:50] Jaclyn Lindsey: It's so special.

[39:51] Jaclyn Lindsey: Yes, the whole goal is to activate that kindness.

[39:53] Robert Peterpaul: I think Dr. Curry wanted to activate it another answer here.

[39:56] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So I'm gonna pass it there.

[39:57] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Yeah, another one.

[39:58] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Um my transitions are so corny.

[40:00] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Okay.

[40:00] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Yeah, it's like, you know, if uh talking about corny, if you know, if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, does it really make a sound?

[40:06] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: And I think about that uh when it comes to compassion.

[40:09] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So if you feel compassion but don't do anything about it, did you, you know, does it did it really happen?

[40:14] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Does it if it's it's not acted upon or instigated?

[40:18] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So all all these things correlate, you know, people measure there's there are other measures of empathy and compassion and generosity and um uh and and and pro-social behavior.

[40:30] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So all these things pull in the same direction, but we really wanted to focus on translating some of those deeper motives into action, seeing how they show up.

[40:39] Robert Peterpaul: Speaking of the action of it all, I'd love to end our time together.

[40:43] Robert Peterpaul: Well, I wouldn't love to end it because I always enjoy being around you all, but I'd love to go around and share a tangible kindness tip.

[40:51] Robert Peterpaul: This is something I ask for on my own podcast, that listeners can this week and beyond do to make the world a little kinder on their own corner.

[41:00] Robert Peterpaul: So this can be a science-based one.

[41:02] Robert Peterpaul: I would love for each of you to leave us with an action.

[41:05] Robert Peterpaul: And while they're thinking, I will say that listeners, just by tuning into this episode, you've already committed to kindness in a way, and that is an action as well.

[41:14] Robert Peterpaul: So kudos to you.

[41:19] Jaclyn Lindsey: My tip would be to get your take your KQ, get your KQ, and then commit to do one kind act in response to it.

[41:28] Jaclyn Lindsey: I'll leave it up to everyone to figure out what that means for themselves.

[41:36] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: I uh will go ahead and say one that and this isn't something in the in the KQ or one back by our research, but something I've just been trying to remind myself to do, and that is say the nice thing out loud.

[41:48] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Um, because I often will sort of think uh a nice thing, a kind thought about someone in being.

[41:53] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Oh, I love her shoes or whatever, and then I I keep it to myself, and it doesn't count, this tree in the forest.

[42:00] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: So to just say it out loud if you feel a little awkward.

[42:03] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: Yeah, it's just something I've been reminding myself to do.

[42:07] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: I I think my generic tip is when you're in that moment when you you might do something, you could go either way.

[42:15] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: If you have the opportunity to do something kind and you're thinking, will I, won't I?

[42:20] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Just like uh on the sign of kindness and just give give it a whirl.

[42:25] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Um do do one step further than you normally do and see how it feels.

[42:30] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: Um experiment with kindness and find the the the level that's right for you.

[42:39] Robert Peterpaul: You all three just laid a beautiful path.

[42:41] Robert Peterpaul: Take the KQ, and then it it ended with your recommendation here.

[42:45] Robert Peterpaul: And I think it reminds me as well that don't be afraid to go back and take the KQ again after some time has passed or after you've committed to kindness a bit more because we're all ever evolving, these scores are changing, the KQ will likely change in a certain period of time anyway.

[43:02] Robert Peterpaul: So I think that's important to know.

[43:04] Robert Peterpaul: And I will add, please also make sure that you challenge a friend to take the KQ after you've done so, help us activate kindness around the world.

[43:14] Robert Peterpaul: This was just a bowl of sunshine.

[43:16] Robert Peterpaul: I admire and respect you all so much.

[43:19] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you for letting me take the mic and be a little Muppet over here again.

[43:24] Robert Peterpaul: Third time I've said Muppet, if you're keeping track.

[43:26] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you all for tuning in, and please remember to go to kindness.org and get your KQ right now.

[43:33] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you all.

[43:34] Robert Peterpaul: Any any other final words?

[43:35] Jaclyn Lindsey: Thank you.

[43:36] Dr. Oliver Scott Curry: You were wonderful.

[43:37] Dr. Chloe San Miguel: This was amazing.

[43:39] All: Happy World Kindness Week.

[43:42] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness Podcast.

[43:47] Robert Peterpaul: To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guest, definitely check out our show notes.

[43:53] Robert Peterpaul: We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference.

[43:59] Robert Peterpaul: We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day-to-day.

[44:02] Robert Peterpaul: We write back to every email, so let us know what you think.

[44:05] Robert Peterpaul: And please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[44:08] Robert Peterpaul: This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness.

[44:16] Robert Peterpaul: Visit our site today at kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community, which spans more than a hundred countries.

[44:23] Robert Peterpaul: It's free to join, and one of the many benefits includes being the first to get access to our latest research tools and even episodes of this podcast.

[44:31] Robert Peterpaul: We are so excited to get you involved in building a kinder world.

[44:35] Robert Peterpaul: Please tune in next time as we continue to explore this big question: why kindness?