This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm Morgan Harper Nichols, and you are listening to The Art of Kindness.

[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the universe a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:39] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, friends! Woo! A happy December! I hope everyone had a lovely Thanksgiving and is gearing up for the holiday season ahead. I know I'm still full from the turkey, but you know, it's time. Woo! Can't hit that whistletone note, but that's why we have Mariah Carey. In this household, we've already watched some holiday flicks. Lindsay Lohan is back, y'all. That's all I'm gonna say. Spread the holiday village at Bryant Park and are set to go to more than one cookie exchange in the coming weeks. While seeing loved ones and doing all the holiday festivities is wonderful, I also want to remember to bask in the glow of the little things. Gratitude is the quality of being able to see light in the little things.

Morgan Harper Nichols said this. Now, if you came across this quote on her Instagram page, you'd have seen it scripted over an amber-colored background that makes you feel like the sun is shining on your face. Morgan sits at the crossroads of art and words. She is a storyteller in the purest sense. But don't get me wrong, she loves a good meme, too. Yes, praise the creative gods. Today's guest is Morgan Harper Nichols. Morgan Harper Nichols is an artist, writer, and creator based in Georgia. Diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and sensory processing disorder, Morgan's work often explores themes of embracing life's narrative and creating room to breathe. She began creating art and poetry in response to social media messages she received in 2017, and since then, her practice has expanded to include digital art, collage, coding, and 3D environments.

Morgan is the creator of the app Storyteller and the online shop Garden24. Her Wall Street Journal best-selling book, All Along You Were Blooming, is one of several published works. She also currently serves as vice president on the board of TWLOHA, a mental health organization. Morgan is passionate about the intersection of art, storytelling, and health, and her long-term goal is to teach and develop resources that explore how we create and interact with narratives in our lives. Watch some of today's conversation on our YouTube and social media pages at Robert Peterpaul and at Art of Kindness Pod. And you know, it is the most wonderful time of the year for giving and leaving five-star reviews of your favorite podcast and maybe sharing that podcast with a friend or two or seven or seven hundred and fifty thousand. It would mean a lot to me. Now, without further ado, please enjoy the magnificent Morgan Harper Nichols.

[3:56] Morgan Harper Nichols: My grandma and I, we always put books to our heart, and then we say, What do I need to see right now? And I opened up your book, which we love in this household. And the passage I won't read yourself to you, but it was all about slowing down and seeing what the moment had to offer. So maybe maybe we needed a beat.

[4:12] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, exactly. Maybe the internet was giving us a gift.

[4:16] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes.

[4:17] Robert Peterpaul: I agree with that. I agree with that.

[4:19] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes.

[4:20] Robert Peterpaul: So where are you? Are you in your own little studio at home? It looks so nice.

[4:22] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, yeah. Home studio just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. So yeah.

[4:27] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, that's yeah. We've lived all over and moved back home to Georgia about two years ago.

[4:35] Morgan Harper Nichols: So yes.

[4:37] Robert Peterpaul: How about you?

[4:38] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes.

[4:38] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I've always been curious about it down there. We're in Connecticut, so we're on the East Coast.

[4:43] Morgan Harper Nichols: Nice, yes, yes.

[4:45] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I followed a gal here, and I am not disappointed. Worked out.

[4:48] Morgan Harper Nichols: That's great.

[4:49] Robert Peterpaul: That's great. Yes. It's nice when it works out that way. And you have you have a podcast as well, I've been listening to, which is so lovely.

[4:57] Morgan Harper Nichols: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I'm trying to get some new episodes up for the fall soon, but yes, yes.

[5:02] Robert Peterpaul: Oh podcasting. Well, I do too, and I'm so excited that you've taken the time to join me on mine. What an honor, Morgan. I figured while I have you who I see every day in my Instagram feed or in this beautiful book that we have here, I thought a nice place within this subject would be art and storytelling as a remedy and sort of the stories we tell about ourselves and how that informs our self-kindness, how kind we are to others. And so I just wanted to set that little tone there before we begin. And before I learn from you, I also will say, again, bowing down, so excited to meet you. This book, I knew your work from Instagram, but this book here, if you don't have it, everyone go run, don't walk, go buy All Along You Were Blooming.

Or you might not have to walk anywhere because you can buy it on your phone, honestly. First of all, I just I have to tell you, I saw my wife reading this beautiful book, this pastel tome, I'll call it, before bed each night. And you know, we're little readers, we have reading parties, so we'll read together. We're nerds like that. And it's just her way to unwind from the day. And she was so excited to share it with me. And as she did, we started reading it nightly together. We would pick a passage and read it together. And we fall off the wagon sometimes, but there have been some family things recently. And I will say it's the first thing she picks up to kind of calm herself down. So just I gotta start out with a thank you because you're touching more people than you probably could ever know.

[6:25] Morgan Harper Nichols: I wow, I am I'm speechless. I really am. That means so much to hear because it's something that I came to writing as a place of trying to name emotions and going through difficult experiences and not knowing, not having the words for it. And it's through art and creative writing that's helped me not find all the solutions, but feel less alone. So it's when I hear someone say what you just said, it's just like such a full circle moment because it's like that in a way, it's like that moment, the thing that you've been trying to do is being reflected back to you. So that just that means a lot to hear. So thanks for sharing that.

[7:13] Robert Peterpaul: Well, thank you for sharing your gift with the world. I think it's such an act of kindness. So I was thrilled when you agreed to come on our little pod here. And now that I sort of gave you many compliments, and they're all genuine. I really mean everything I've said. I wonder how are you at accepting compliments? You seem very gracious, but I'm guessing you get a lot of them every day. Is that sort of a journey for you?

[7:35] Morgan Harper Nichols: That's such a good question. That's such a good question. I'm glad you asked that because I think that's something I've grown in. Because I do think that it was very hard for me to receive them early on, but just because I just for me, the whole like just being a forward-facing creative person is a challenge for me. I'm not organically like you, you talk to some, you know, creators, and you know, they're like, Oh, I knew I was made for the stage, you know. Like that's how they start off. They start in that place, it energizes, they find it electrifying for me. It's terrifying, like it's like the second, like I have nightmares about just standing on stage.

[8:17] Robert Peterpaul: Oh wow, so it's oh, so that is a lot of work for me, and I do feel like I've grown in that way of just learning how to just receive, you know, it's that is a lot of work to just receive something and not feel like you have to do anything with it, it's just like receive it and say thanks. Like that really connects with how I want to feel and it reminds me that the work I'm doing, it matters, and then also too. One thing that I I've what like I really actively listen. So when people are sharing, I listened for, you know, you shared, you know, reading before bed. And I'm like, oh wow, like a rhythm, like thinking about how you're moving through all these daily rhythms and then reading it. So I started thinking about it a whole lot.

And I'm just like, it's kind of like being in this world of just like receiving for a moment, you know, it's just like letting yourself take it in. You don't have to overthink it. You don't have to come up with the perfect response. Just if you can, just show some gratitude and say thanks, thanks for reflecting my work back to me. That means a lot.

[9:28] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's so beautiful. I think that's a great reminder for everyone in life, you know, whether I'm at the stage door and someone says good job and I kind of shirk it off because it's more work to sort of be like, oh no, I was sick today and you know, and make up a million excuses. It's also about the other person. So it's such a gift to just let that wash over them. Like I know it means a lot for me, and it'll mean a lot for my wife who I tried to get in here to just pop over and say hello, and she was like, I couldn't, I can't. She was too excited. But it does really, it means a lot. So thank you for accepting those moments. And I think everybody in life, if we were all actively listening a little bit more, what a brighter place it would be in this day and age.

[10:06] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[10:08] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's something listening as a form of kindness really, it has been very something I've been thinking a lot about lately because it's very I only speak English, so I don't know how it's like in other languages, but within the English language, it's we have like a lot of words that get used for lots of things. So even if you're just saying, like, oh, I'm having a good day, like that same phrase could be applied to someone who's just having like, you know, oh, I got I feel like I got enough sleep, or like, I proposed and they said yes, you know, it's like that same phrase can cover such a wide, wide range. So I've just been becoming more intrigued about like how can I ask people, what do you mean by that?

Like, how has it been good? If there, if there was, if you had to assign the goodness of a day to a color, what color would you say it was? And it's been really interesting as I've just been experimenting with that, even just like I'm a parent, like I've been doing that with my son, and just asking him if he likes something. I'm like, what do you like about it? Like you said it makes you feel happy. Well, what color is happy today? And so sometimes he'll even be like, What? I don't know what you're talking about. But it's just like this fun, it's like there's room to imagine more possibilities with the way that we speak, the way that we talk to one another, even in little things. So I've been really interested in that lately.

[11:41] Morgan Harper Nichols: It's become, it's become like, because something I've noticed too about questions in particular is that oftentimes in a lot of contexts, if someone asks you, "What do you mean by that?" It's a lot of times it's in an argument kind of setting, you know, like someone's trying to get you to say something so then they can take something, what you said in terms of it's like that's not the only way that we can interrogate. Sounds like a weird word to say, but yeah, it's like that's not the only kind of interrogation there is. Like, there's other ways to kind of open up just in our talking with one another and our writing and our speaking. So yeah, I've been doing a lot of that lately.

[12:19] Morgan Harper Nichols: So but try not to try not to annoy everyone with it, because sometimes I love it. Having questions is fun, and I mean, I got a lot for you, so get ready. But I think it's interesting because curiosity to me is almost it's a it's a key a lot of the time to to a door. But some people can see it as you banging on the door, you know, not trying to knock it down versus allowing it to open. And I think curiosity and having questions for people is such a kindness.

[12:44] Morgan Harper Nichols: It's you're right. It's very interesting to think about in this world, how it's received sometimes as combative.

[12:50] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, you know. But before we get into all that nitty-gritty, and you mentioned being a parent, I think this question might be particularly relevant to kind of lay the soil for our conversation here today. What is your definition of kindness and how do you think it's changed over time?

[13:07] Morgan Harper Nichols: Such a good question. I've been thinking about that. And I would say that as a kid, and just in my young adult years, kindness was something that I wanted to share with others, but I often felt like it maybe wasn't something that I was—I don't know how to explain it, but it felt like it was something that, okay, you have to learn how to do it a certain kind of way, and you have to. If for instance, I grew up in the South, and in the South in the United States, there's a lot of hospitality culture. And for me, as someone who's more introverted, and I also was diagnosed with autism, ADHD as an adult, like having a lot of people—if you see me looking around, it's just, yeah, looking at all these features.

[14:05] Robert Peterpaul: I'm the same, I'm the same.

[14:07] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, and it is inviting someone over to the house, like for dinner, that takes a huge load on me. Like, and I it takes me a long time to recover. Even if it's something I want to do, and it is something I do, it takes me longer to recover from the average person. So this is how I explain how I used to think about it versus how I think about it now. So we had some guests over the house a few days ago last weekend. And after everybody went home, I was—I just kind of like did nothing. I just had to like lay there and I noticed my husband, like he just kept going with the rest of his day. And I was like, wow, like it's so interesting how differently our bodies and you know we how differently we respond to that. I need a lot more recovery time, even though we both equally enjoyed it. I just need more recovery time.

[14:56] And the way that I would have used to have interpreted that moment was that I need to be more like him in order to be kind and keep going, you know. It's like we have a child, so in that moment he's able to like kind of be more engaged, and I was just kind of like, I just need a minute. And I think a younger version of myself may have perceived that as, um, as okay, well, you have a lesser kind of kindness in a way, because you're not able to do what others are able to do. Similarly, when it comes to art and performance and things like that, at times my stage presence, I get really like nerdy and specific and go on these tangents and things, and then if I'm speaking at an event and the next person is speaking like this, and everyone is weeping three minutes in, and I see them after, and they just have so much poise and grace, and people are just—they're so warm. I'm like, oh, why can't I be like that?

[16:06] Robert Peterpaul: And so well, we love a tangent here.

[16:08] Morgan Harper Nichols: So yeah, it was—it took, in a way, it kind of like it's a form of comparison in a way of seeing other people be kind and fit spending so much time on that. And I think where I've changed now is really thinking of kindness as a kind of thoughtfulness, and it kind of goes back to that old phrase of like it's the thought that counts. I do think that matters when it comes to kindness because you don't always know how your kindness is going to be perceived. It's like sometimes you might be doing something from like the kindness of your heart in like the most sincere way, but it's vulnerable because you don't know how other people are going to see it.

[16:51] So that thought part, that thoughtfulness part is where it comes in. And that's how I think I understand it now. Like there was one time where on social media, this was years ago. This is like right around like when the lockdown started, and it was—we were approaching like graduation season, and I did this post where I was just talking to graduates, and I was just like expressing like, hey, like I—this probably has to be a difficult time for you all, and you know, you're not getting the graduation that you wanted.

[17:25] And it was interesting because most of the comments I received at that time, a lot of them were like, No, actually, it's fine, like I didn't want to go anyway, like I'm an introvert. Like it was one of those moments where I was like, Oh, but this is a moment where the thought of what I was doing mattered because it's like, hey, my thought was just to like, you know, hey, I see you.

[17:43] Yeah, and even though their response was like, we're good, you know, yeah, it was fine. And I was like, an older version of me would have felt much worse about it. It would have been like, oh, look at you trying to be encouraging and it didn't go across the way that you wanted it to. And now I see, I'm like, you know what? I know what my intentions were. And I learned from that experience. And the person on the other side knew what my intentions were too. So yeah, I think thoughtfulness is how I would describe it these days.

[18:12] Robert Peterpaul: That's so interesting. And you brought up so many things that we talk about on here a lot, which is that there's a difference between being kind and being nice. And there's a difference sometimes between our perceived kindness and our intentions. And I think you kind of just shed a lot of light on what we've danced around here, which is that as long as you know for yourself that your intention was pure, you can move forward. And it doesn't always matter. I mean, we hope everyone can move forward, but sometimes that's their own journey, and you just have to focus on yours.

[18:42] Morgan Harper Nichols: And it's complex, right? In this world, because we all want to be kind to each other, yeah, but kindness does mean different things to everyone. No person I've asked that question to over the course of this podcast has said the same thing.

[18:53] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, some people have said my mom, some people have said listening, some people have said, you know, but not use the same word. Some people have said consideration. So it's such a personal thing that I almost wish we could all walk around with little roadmaps.

[19:06] Morgan Harper Nichols: So every time you go into a classroom, you say, just because I'm not smiling and I'm quiet, it doesn't mean I hate you.

[19:12] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, but that's the art part.

[19:15] Morgan Harper Nichols: You know, that's the art part is that like when even our—the way that we express ourselves, like in the clothing that we wear, in the things that we do, it's like there's room for that, and like training ourselves to be able to see all of the different kinds of ways it can come to life. I think that that's really beautiful.

[19:33] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, me too. And also I wanted to ask you, you brought this up before. What color do you feel right now? Because I'm feeling yellow.

[19:44] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, I would say yellowish green. I know that's a weird color.

[19:49] Robert Peterpaul: It's weird.

[19:49] Morgan Harper Nichols: Green's my favorite color. That you see when you're looking at sun filtering through the leaves on a tree. That's my—like that's my favorite color, that range. I'm actually kind of wearing it right now. This is a little bit more green than that, but that is like a very particular color that to me is just like this very like awakening kind of joy. And I just, yeah, I love that. I have a tree outside, and I see it. I see like the light pouring in through the leaves, and I'm like, that—that spectrum of color right there, yeah, that's how I feel.

[20:30] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that stripe of sunshine. I love that. I've been actually watching the leaves more and more. I just think they're—when you're having a bad day and you look up and you see all these leaves on this one tree moving together, there's something kind of meditational about that, and also a reminder that all these leaves are hanging out. I'm just one little speck. It's gonna be okay.

[20:48] Morgan Harper Nichols: Absolutely, absolutely.

[20:49] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Looking back, is there an act of kindness that you feel like changed your journey in the arts and kind of led you to where you are today?

[20:58] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm sure there were—I hope there were a lot of them, but so many. So, so many. And I would say that the moments that stand out to me, I'll just go with one that popped in my head first. And I've shared the story before, but it really was that it was—I was in community college, and I had—this was my third school, and I was about to give up on at least pursuing art in any kind of professional capacity. I was like, this is just not sustainable. Like I felt like I just couldn't keep up with so many things. And at the time I didn't know I had ADHD, I didn't know I was autistic, so all of that was a barrier as well that I didn't even know was there. But I had this class in my community college. It was like—it was like American literature or something like that, just like one of your standard core classes.

[21:48] And I had to write a poem for the class. And he was like, I don't know if you've ever thought about being a writer, but reading what you just wrote, you should. He was like, the way you wrote that, and like he just like broke it down. I'd never really had anyone break down what I wrote that way. And in the—in that moment in between classes, he just like laid out all the different ways you could be a professional poet. Like he was just like, you could go to grad school, you could do this. Like it was just things that I had never thought of. And I think of that as kindness because he did not have to do that, and he also did not know how I was going to receive it.

[22:30] Like we know how, you know, young adults, teenagers get used to like, oh, thanks, you know, whatever. But he done—he didn't have any idea how I was gonna receive that or respond to that. And I was very receptive, and I ended up taking his advice, and I've let him know several times through the years, all these years later. But yeah, it's just became—it—that's in me just became such a key moment for me because I was like, I want to be that. It's like where are those moments that I have in between one thing and the next thing, like in between classes, where I can just share with someone, I'm like, hey, just in case, I just want to let you know I see what you're doing, I see it, and there's something here, and in case this is helpful, here you go. And that—that was a very special moment for me, and I've held on to that a lot, and I continue to try to share that in my work and in other ways all the time.

[23:32] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you for sharing that. It—the power of teachers, right? I mean, teachers are really the backbone of our world, and they can be a little underappreciated. So I always love when the act of kindness someone shares here is about a teacher because the power of seeing someone too, you know?

[23:47] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah.

[23:48] Robert Peterpaul: Actually seeing a person for being another person, which your work does so beautifully somehow. It's like so universal and yet so specific, which is my favorite kind of art, you know.

[23:58] Morgan Harper Nichols: Speaking of specifics, to have a weird clunky transition here. I'm wondering, do you have sort of specific small daily doses of kindness before we get into the big stuff that you personally feel like kind of nurture your own well-being and creativity?

[24:12] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, you know, I'm really into—it's so silly and typical, I guess you would say, but just like funny, just random funny videos. Like I have so—like my sister and I, like our entire texting thread, it's just like memes, just back and forth. And I mean, it could just be the most—like we'll find like—I think one of our main meme genres is like just super hyper-specific nostalgic stuff that like only like a few people would know and like we're sending you.

[24:48] Robert Peterpaul: I need to know some memes.

[24:49] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, oh I'm trying to think of some. Just like I'm—I can't even—there's like this one show, I can't even think of the name of it now. But it would be like think like—not this specifically, but think like Magic School Bus era.

[25:02] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, Miss Frizzle.

[25:03] Morgan Harper Nichols: Like that, yeah, like that era. So not that show specifically. I can't think of the specific show we were talking about the other day because it was—it was more rare, but yeah, we'll just like find like these most just random just movie clips and just all kinds of stuff. Or, um, like I'll have like if I'm just—I've been doing a lot of cleaning and like sometimes like stuff from childhood, like some of her like journal entries stuff will end up in my stuff, so I'll just like take a picture without any context and just send it to her.

[25:35] Morgan Harper Nichols: So yeah, it's a lot of that. Um, and then this one is and also on that, like so this is gonna be kind of silly. But listen, I'm a silly goose. I love watching like reruns and like just shows over and over, like Gilmore Girls, like that's probably my go-to. Just I like turning that one on because it doesn't distract me too much because I know what happens in every episode. So if I get engrossed for a minute, I can like I'm like, I know what's gonna happen, so I don't have to keep looking. It's so that town is not too far from us, actually, right now as we speak, the town they based it on here in Connecticut. There we go. There's my Connecticut connection. That's why I had a positive feeling about it, and um so yeah, I'll just like turn that on.

Like sometimes while I'm just working on like the most serious things, like I will just turn on either that or I'll turn on like YouTube compilations of funny videos and just like have them like in the background of like animals doing things, and it's it's just interesting for me because I'm like, wow, everything I just said involves some kind of screen, and that's something that we kind of typically say as like, oh, you know, you know, less screen time, okay, okay, okay, I know, I don't know, less screen time. But it's just for me, realistically in my life right now with my work and just being a parent of a young child and like being realistic about my time. I've had to kind of modify, you know, where are these places that I'm getting filled up and that I'm feeling energized.

And it's okay if it's a screen, it's okay if it's something really small that's just happening at your desk. I don't think that's like lesser than. So yeah, that's what that's what I would say. It's it's been for me right now.

[27:21] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you for saying that because my wife and I bond a lot with well, she'll send me so many funny videos, and for some reason, I don't know why I'm always responding to everyone else on my phone first, but her DMs of all the videos I don't always look at right away. She'll sit me down every day, and we have to watch them together, and she's like, You better like each one we watch them, and then it's become a thing now. I just don't ever answer, and then she's like, I sent you about 20 videos, sit down and then we laugh together, and then we watch on the screen, and then we feel guilty, sort of like what you're saying is oh, we're just bonding with the screen, but that's such a nice way to be together and also not expel any energy, yeah. And uh, you know, we call the TV our healthy screen because it's not as in your face, it's a little further.

[28:02] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, yeah, I agree.

[28:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[28:04] Morgan Harper Nichols: Come on.

[28:05] Robert Peterpaul: So I agree with you. I love I love that, and I love the acceptance you've given us all, and permission, I should say to do that.

[28:12] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, I actually get that question a lot when it comes to my art because my art is mostly digital. So I even if I do like I even if I'm doing like acrylic painting or something, I call myself a digital mixed media artist because I'm scanning the work in, and it's ending up in some kind of digital format. And I because of the way that I make my art, a lot of people don't know that they may not know that digital something is involved. So I have a lot of people who are like, oh, I'm so glad that this is like you know, art and I'm so tired of being on the screen, and I'm like, oh my all my work ends up being on the screen. Um so it's it's kind of one of those interesting things. That's it's like, yeah, I I definitely have not tried to stare at the screen all day, but I don't really have this like really super strict, like no screens. It's like, no, sometimes realistically speaking, a screen might be involved in finding those moments that you know fill you up.

[29:09] Robert Peterpaul: So yeah, and you make art so accessible that way, which is another wonderful thing about you is that you're sharing all these gifts on social media and it's absolutely free. So maybe somebody that can't afford even just to take the time to go to a museum can go to your feed and experience something.

[29:24] Morgan Harper Nichols: It is such a huge thing. I mean, it's like if I did if I were just like retired and I I probably would not even look at a screen. I have like 20 foot canvases and the most expensive oil paints, but realistically speaking, that's not most people's lives, and a lot of times, like something like a tablet or your phone is just going to be more accessible for you know being attached to creative expression in some way, even if it's not the whole thing. So I I am proud of that, and I I the other side of it is I get a lot of people who get excited when they find out. I'm like, no, I use here's how you can use a free app on your phone to create some artwork that you can share with your friend or put on social media or print out. And it's always really exciting to see people find that out.

[30:15] Robert Peterpaul: Well, I have to say, your art is not only on the screens, but it is transformative, it is healing, it is so powerful, as I've already been telling you throughout this whole conversation. I shared that I was gonna have you on the podcast, and listeners and friends and people responded in droves and heaps saying how much they love you. And most of them actually shared a story about what you got them through and what you healed in them. And that's sort of the reason why I wanted to talk about your art as a healing power. I know you you are open to receiving people's stories and you create art based off of people's stories.

[30:50] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, but is that something you think about? The the power of kindness and sort of almost like the therapy like result of your art a lot of the time. I mean, really deeply personal stories I received. I'm sure you receive that every day.

[31:04] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, it's that is something that continues to mystify me. Um I I haven't, I don't really know what like how to put it in words, what's happening there, other than I I do believe that in a world filled with rules, responsibilities, and things beyond your control, art is a space that allows you to kind of take a breath from that. And in a way, I see making art and this whether it's poetry, whether it's film, whether it's you're you're making a room. Like it's not just a thing, it's a space that people are entering into. Even if they can't physically hop into the painting or physically hop on stage.

[31:58] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah, that would be cool.

[32:01] Morgan Harper Nichols: That would be cool. I would definitely love to do that. So if anyone out there has any technology to do that, I don't know, maybe that'll be a good idea.

[32:08] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[32:10] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes.

[32:11] Morgan Harper Nichols: Um, I would love to make some some of that. But it's it creates a space. And and I think that that is that's how I how I approach it because at times it's like I'm like, well, I don't know that that person, their story a lot of times. Like, even if someone shares with me a story, oftentimes it's just a few words. Like I'm having to really use my imagination as to how to speak to a story that someone's only share like a few words, and I'm like, I I can make a space though, I can make a room with this piece of art with what I've made, where you feel like you're allowed to feel that, and you feel like you're allowed to acknowledge this year has been really hard, and I don't have to like force myself to be positive about it right away.

Like I'm allowed to say this sucks. I'm allowed to say I wanted that to happen, and then the opposite happened, and now I just don't want to do it right now. Or like I don't want to lecture right now. I just want someone to listen. Like you're allowed to say that. So that's what I'm that's what I seek to do.

[33:16] Morgan Harper Nichols: And I'm also really inspired by by fiction. So I was like a uh very avid fiction reader as a kid, and I was really into like fictional world building and making fiction. So even when I am writing in response to something that someone shared with me or something I've seen, I'm also thinking about that imaginative, fictional, like what if component because it's like that it's fiction that allows us to kind of like imagine what could be beyond what is, and it's it becomes a space. It's like when you're physically reading a novel, you're entering into a world, you're entering into a space.

[33:56] Robert Peterpaul: So that's what I hope it is, and and it just it means a lot to hear that other people can can feel that, like they feel like they can experience it.

[34:09] Morgan Harper Nichols: And I think I I think one time I really that that stood out to me the most was a rare occasion. I've only done this a few times, where so I will make artwork and in response to something someone shares with me, and I will send it to them before I send it anywhere else. And one or a few times I I did this thing where I didn't put any words on it, and I just did colors, so someone shared with me their story, and I spent all this time like painting it, and I remember it was like a lot of shades of blue, and I just I was like, I think the emotions in the colors itself, I think what I'm trying to say, there are no there are no words for it, and I sent it, and their response was like, This is exactly what I'm feeling. Like this. And it wasn't even like a figurative, it was an abstract piece, really with one color palette. I was like, Yeah, I can't take credit for all like that's not that is beyond me. I'm like, that is bigger than just me.

[35:17] Morgan Harper Nichols: And I found that to just be so moving, and it takes the pressure off, even of like you have to be this perfect artist who has to like say everything. It's like, no, make a space, like just make a space that people can feel like they can almost kind of like project in a way. It's like project their own emotions onto it. It's like I don't know if you ever did this when you were a kid, but probably I feel like every time my sister and I would like get like a new show that we like to watch, like Powerpuff Girls. Like we would always like a sign, we would project ourselves onto the character, you know. She's like, I'm Bubbles, and it's like I'm Buttercup. Like you're like, who am I in this? And I think in a lot of ways, as adults, we're still doing that. Like, we're still like, who am I in this thing that I'm seeing in the world?

[36:05] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, so when you see things that have flowers or colors that you really like, or something in nature that speaks to you, it's like, oh, I can see myself in that. It's like I might not literally be a tree, but I want to be someone who feels rooted, but also has branches that can sway and change.

[36:28] Morgan Harper Nichols: So yeah, I I think about that a lot. It takes the pressure off of like, okay, you have to perfectly communicate to all these people. It's like I can't do that, but I know that enough people out there know what a tree is. Enough people out there enjoy yellow or enjoy green, and they can kind of or the yellow green of the leaves in the sunlight.

[36:50] Robert Peterpaul: Exactly.

[36:51] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, and they can kind of bring something into that.

[36:54] Robert Peterpaul: Well, it also takes a lot of pressure off of the viewer, the spectator, because sometimes with art, like we were saying before, this art is so accessible and brings people down many different paths, and it's yeah, it's personal, it's universal. But there can be a pressure to sort of see quote unquote the right thing, or read a poem and find the right answer and analyze it the correct way. And by creating a space, which is also the name of your lovely newsletter, at least it was, which everyone should subscribe to when I do. And I get it every morning, and I start my morning with a deep breath and a read. I uh I think it it there's no right or wrong. And that's a gift.

[37:32] Morgan Harper Nichols: I like to live in in the gray, not everything's black and white. And if you can sort of be in a space where you can have your own canvas, you know, I'm picturing, I want to go to a like an interactive installation of your work where you're like in the world.

[37:44] Morgan Harper Nichols: That's the dream.

[37:46] Robert Peterpaul: It'll happen, I'm sure.

[37:47] Morgan Harper Nichols: That's the dream.

[37:48] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, there is this, there is this uh Japanese art team. That's probably not the technical way they say it, but it's called they're called team lab. And my my dream is to like intern at Team Lab in my old age, but I'm just like I I'm like, whatever they're doing, I want to do that.

[38:07] Morgan Harper Nichols: Like they do all this really interesting, like immersive art experiences. So at some point I do want to do that because I think that we could use some more interactive art experiences in the world. Um there's nothing wrong with art on a canvas on a wall. I enjoy that too. There's ways to interact with that, but I do think about that quite a bit. So maybe someday. Well, I used to work with David Correns, who's a set designer. He did like Hamilton and he helped. I am obsessed with set designers.

[38:40] Robert Peterpaul: Oh really?

[38:40] Morgan Harper Nichols: I went to go see Wicked off Broadway. And I mean, I love Wicked, but all I could think about was the set design. Like, I was just like, do you all see that clock? I'm like, what? I get so distracted by set design.

[38:59] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, me too.

[38:59] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm like, I have so much respect for it. It is just it's a magical world they're creating. There's so much to it. So that's fascinating that you have close up view.

[39:11] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, and I will say he's a brilliant man. He has a whole team. I mean, he admittedly doesn't even really know how to use any like CAD or any of the design software. He just has this brain and these ideas that he can communicate. I bring it up because he designed the Van Gogh immersive experience in New York City.

[39:30] Morgan Harper Nichols: Wow, okay. That is incredible.

[39:31] Robert Peterpaul: Maybe there's a collab there.

[39:34] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, I would love to know more about that because I am yeah, I'm just I'm a fan at this point. Like, I'm just like, this is I'm like, this is really cool work. I have no idea what's going on, but it looks amazing.

[39:45] Robert Peterpaul: Well, that's how I feel about your work, except I feel like I know what's going on, even if I'm always not on the nose. And I'm just really curious. We've touched on it a bit, but what is your relationship with inspiration? Is it sort of a lightning that strikes you? Are you like a lightning chaser, always looking for it? Or are you kind of a lightning bug, maybe to continue this metaphor where you can just turn it on whenever you want?

[40:09] Morgan Harper Nichols: I wish it was that. I will say that. I okay. So I I'll try not to go out on a tangent here. I have a lot of thoughts. I have a lot of thoughts on inspiration. So the word, as someone who, like many people who are creative, struggle with staying inspired, being inspired. That's that's me. So I'll just start off with there. I absolutely deal with that. And secondly, I'm like, I'm gonna figure this out though. I'm like, I want to solve this problem. So I started looking up the word inspiration, and I was surprised to find that, like I was talking about earlier, English language, we keep using the same word for 80,000 things. Yeah, I was surprised to find that it also means it's also a form of describing inhalation, like inhaling, like in a respiratory sense.

So I was like, that's kind of interesting. I was like, inspiration is actually more about the input, I in inspiration than it is output. So I was like, inspiration is just me taking in the world around me, and then my art is me figuring out what parts of that to exhale.

[41:15] So I try not to think about inspiration when I'm at a page, I'm not like I need to be inspired. I have been inspired because I have been inspiring all day, and it's just a matter of figuring out how to channel what I have inspired into something to exhale. So, what that looks like practically is a phone with 100,000 screenshots, like of everything. Like I'm taking screenshots, pictures all the time. I have, I think I forgot some flashes during this conversation.

[41:49] Robert Peterpaul: I didn't want to say anything.

[41:50] Morgan Harper Nichols: No, I'm just kidding. Yes, I've been screenshotting this entire call. Um, I niece does that on FaceTime with my niece. I just see screenshots, screenshot, and it's like I'm like, okay. I love that, I love that. I'm taking notes all the time, and it's not even a matter of like going back and looking at every single one or even organizing all of them, especially when it's digital. I don't worry about organizing every little thing, but it's just a matter of like being in a practice of inhaling and inspiring. So it's like if I'm watching a movie that I enjoy and I'm feeling emotions, that is inspired. I'm inspiring. That it might sound weird to say, but it's like I'm taking that movie in. And a little thread of that as inspiration might show up on a canvas later. So that's kind of how I see it.

[42:40] I'm all about a major theme for me is taking the pressure off as much as possible. I'm like, life is stressful enough.

[42:45] Robert Peterpaul: Thank you.

[42:45] Morgan Harper Nichols: Life is stressful enough on its own. We do not have to make this more complicated than it has to be. So yeah, that's something that I love that. I really try to practice as much as possible. Like, how can I just inspire, take in? That could just even be like flipping through a book, um, flipping through an old magazine. Just like, don't worry about where it's all gonna go. Just open yourself up to inspire, to take in.

[43:14] Robert Peterpaul: Wow, I needed to hear that. I think probably a lot of people listening needed to hear that. And it also takes the pressure to go with your theme off of the well, you sort of said this, but off of what you create, and it puts it on the process because we're supposed to enjoy the process, take in the process.

[43:31] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, and then whatever happens, happens. And I think that's a great reminder of that. You put that so brilliantly that I'm gonna re-listen to that about 80,000 times and then put it in my AirPods and fall asleep through it every time.

[43:42] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, well, I'm glad I was able to share it. Because it's been stressing me out too. That's where it comes from. I'm like, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm like, I know it's important, but we gotta figure it out.

[43:52] Robert Peterpaul: I can imagine too. How has your process sort of been informed by the fact that now you have this community and this pressure of people? There's a famous poet, his name's escaping me. You might know the name, but he was like considered one of the best poets of all time and had this sort of one-off, and then he went and retreated and didn't want to be famous. And he was like, I can't coexist with both of them. And then he would come back and publish a book and then leave.

[44:14] Morgan Harper Nichols: Sounds about right.

[44:15] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. So how do you balance that?

[44:17] Morgan Harper Nichols: Oh my goodness. Energy coming your way.

[44:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, yes. I will give you like just like a random list, but it's just like the most practical for me when it comes to the internet component, which is we all know a lot. One way I deal with that is just having a bunch of accounts. Like there's sometimes where I get mental blocks where I start overthinking things. So I'll just like post on my apps account of like it just feels like less pressure over there. Uh sometimes if I'm working on like a book or something and I'm getting stuck, I will just I will sometimes literally make up a fictional story about a character who has to write this book and then make the character write the book.

[45:00] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I love it.

[45:00] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'll just open up a work doc and I'm like, okay, it's time for um Harriet to write this story, and this is what this is how she would do it, because Morgan doesn't have a clue.

[45:11] Robert Peterpaul: I love that.

[45:13] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm always looking for other ways like that. Like I had a whole point. Um, I just finished my master's degree and thank you, thank you. I had a whole point where I was just deep in my studies and I was just like, I just want to delete every app. I'm so sick of all of it. I'm just so tired of it. And I created I created a TikTok account for a potato.

[45:37] Robert Peterpaul: Um, and like you know, like a bag of potatoes, like just like a regular bag of potatoes from the store.

[45:42] Morgan Harper Nichols: To find this tangent, I deleted it because I accidentally deleted it because I was logged into too many accounts on my TikTok, but um, and then I couldn't get back in it, and I don't know what happened to it, but I have screenshots of it somewhere.

[45:55] Robert Peterpaul: Um I did a podcast episode on it. I do talk about it in depth, but it was to find it. The reason why we're potato people over here.

[46:03] Morgan Harper Nichols: I threw a potato party for my wife for her 30th birthday this year.

[46:06] Robert Peterpaul: Are you serious?

[46:07] Morgan Harper Nichols: It was a surprise party, and she's screaming about potatoes. And I was like, I guess I have to try and make up a potato party.

[46:12] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's hilarious.

[46:14] Morgan Harper Nichols: I bought a potato dish.

[46:15] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love it.

[46:16] Morgan Harper Nichols: Okay, so y'all really are potato people. I love it. Yes, I just did it to just like make social media fun.

[46:23] Robert Peterpaul: Like you're like, I hate potatoes.

[46:25] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, no, I do. I do love potatoes, but I didn't like bake them or anything. And that's what was funny about it. Every time I would tell people, like, oh, it's just like recipes for potatoes. I'm like, no, I'm I literally started it to just make social media fun and like to just not make it so serious because it does get, I mean, as you know, once you have a brand, it's yeah, it is your job and it's creative all at once.

[46:50] Robert Peterpaul: So having those things that are just like strictly just for fun.

[46:54] Morgan Harper Nichols: I've created a Sims 4 YouTube channel one time.

[46:57] Robert Peterpaul: Oh like I just made like two, this is like two years ago.

[47:01] Morgan Harper Nichols: Just like made two videos.

[47:04] Robert Peterpaul: I love Sims so much.

[47:06] Morgan Harper Nichols: And so yeah, it's that's how I balance it because that there is there could be a major imbalance when it's like your job and it's something that literally millions of people could see. So creating the other side of it where it's like this is just for fun, this is just or maybe it's just for research and development, just to see what's out there, just let yourself be curious. Um that has been helpful for me. It's been and it's been helpful for me very specifically to do it in the same place that's been stressing me out.

[47:40] Robert Peterpaul: So Instagram, for instance, you know, it's like social media Instagram and TikTok as a creator, they do kind of stress me out a little bit, especially the way things are going now, because they really prioritize sending your content to people who have no context of you. So that that can be harder if you're trying to have a community because you now have to factor in. Okay, if I share this, it is likely even if I have two followers now that a million people who don't know me could see this.

[48:10] Morgan Harper Nichols: So that can that's a whole new dynamic that is becoming more common on these platforms.

[48:17] Robert Peterpaul: So what I start to do with like my fun accounts is just like make a random fun account, just kind of do something just to kind of remind myself like let this be where you just kind of explore creatively.

[48:29] Morgan Harper Nichols: And if it takes more time or courage on the bigger accounts, then let it let that be. Like, don't pressure yourself to feel like you have to keep adapting and contorting to every little social media change. So that's how that's how I at least try to deal with all of it.

[48:45] Robert Peterpaul: Well, no, that's very similar actually to something my wife did a couple years back, which I think was maybe how she started following you. Um was that her social media feed, it was probably during the pandemic, was just getting so dark. And so she did a social media cleanse and she said, I'm only following accounts that bring me positivity and joy.

[49:02] Morgan Harper Nichols: Wow.

[49:02] Robert Peterpaul: Wow. Because it's what you consume. And whether you realize it or not, you're inhaling it, you're taking it in. And to have at least a couple nice things on there, whether the algorithm brings you them or not, is important.

[49:14] Morgan Harper Nichols: Exactly.

[49:15] Robert Peterpaul: So yes.

[49:16] Morgan Harper Nichols: That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, you put out so many wonderful things on social media, like before when you were talking about just letting yourself feel how you feel. I remembered your little hey post with the yellow background, I think.

[49:28] Robert Peterpaul: And you had this great no.

[49:29] Morgan Harper Nichols: I remember a while back. And it was basically just like a lot.

[49:33] Robert Peterpaul: I'm really proud of that post.

[49:35] Morgan Harper Nichols: Like I was, I don't know where terms of inspiration, I'm like, yeah, I guess there's a lot of things just culminating at that moment. Um, but yes, thank you.

[49:43] Robert Peterpaul: No, thank you. Is that what you follow? Because I was curious. I know sometimes you sort of have themes, but do you look at it like monthly? Is it just organic for you? How do you kind of choose what you want to explore?

[49:54] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm getting there. I'm trying to get there. I have not been good at thinking too much ahead. For me, and I know you mentioned ADHD too. I don't know if this is something like time is just like a weird thing, you know. It's just like I think about time, I'm aware of time, but it just kind of gets really jumbled. So what I have been doing, and I'm proud of myself because this is I just reached a year of it. I finally did it. On so I have my app called Storyteller, and that is I have a um on that page, I've been doing like a free daily affirmation for a year. And I kept that up for a year and I planned it out a month in advance. That's the first time I've been able to do that.

[50:35] Morgan Harper Nichols: Wow. Um, I didn't write out the full thing like a month in advance, but I had like, I'm talking about this this day for 30 days. That's the first time I did it. So I just got to that point, seven years in of like somewhat of like a content calendar.

[50:52] Morgan Harper Nichols: Even that sounds weird. Oh, but this is nice to hear because it's taking a long time. It took a long time. It always hits what you're doing, and it's always relevant and organic. And someone could look at your page and think it's perfectly curated and planned out. Oh no, no, no. But maybe it's not, it's not supposed to it's supposed to be a space like we're talking about, and that can be powerful on its own. That said, do you sort of have I don't want to call it a warm-up routine, but maybe because I'm a performer, I'll call it that. Something that gets you into the creative mindset. Is it scrolling for those funny videos? Or do you have it's you know, it's a it's actually probably very boring answer.

So sometimes those are the most interesting. I have a series of spreadsheets of everything I've ever made. And what I will oftentimes do is I would just go back through those spreadsheets. Like I don't even I don't wait for the emotional inspirational part, like because that that's just gonna take forever to come sometimes. Like sometimes I'm just like, oh, what have I where did I leave off? You know, so I have been doing like my app for a few years. I have quite a bit in there, and then I've been doing social media for a few years, and then I have my books. So I kind of see it as like this is all accumulating, and it doesn't have to be like you have to invent something new all the time. A lot of times I like actually today I had this experience where I scrolled to someone's social media post, and the first post was like just kind of like a call in, and I was like, Oh, I can't wait to read this.

And I swiped, and then the first thing they had to inspire you was something I said. I was like, Oh, oh wait, I needed to hear that. Like, thank you me. Yeah, so that's kind of how I see it. It's like, like, this might sound kind of strange for some people, but even if you're not a writer, there are things that younger you probably said that could inspire you today. Like, even if you're someone who's like, I'm not a writer, I've never said anything meaningful or profound, I highly doubt it. At some point, there could have been just one little thought that you had at 15. It could be something funny, like it could be just something hilarious and offbeat and just totally you that you said at 15 or 22.

That if you heard it today, you'd be like, of course, of course that I said that back then too. So that's kind of how I started to see my writing now as someone who has been journaling since I was eight years old. I've been keeping up a journal or diary of some kind since 1998. I was eight years old. With the little lock. Did you have the one with the little rubber in the 90s where they had the little yes, yes. I every every millennial girl journal thing that you can find. I probably had it or want or wanted to have it. I'm like trying to pick it. And they're like on their clear cell phone in their bubble chair. You know, you know, those are the good old days. Oh, those were the good old days.

So yeah, I've been doing that ever since then. And what I found is like that's how I find inspiration. It's like from like older versions of myself. If that makes sense, like there's things that like back in those early days of lockdown, like there's things that I said around like April 2020 that I couldn't have articulated that way today. But then I go back and I read it and I'm like, oh, but it still connects with today. I can see how this still applies today. So that's something I try to encourage people to do, whether they're creative or not, is like just start keeping some kind of record of your thoughts, your ideas about things because they you have there's more inside of you than you realize.

There's more, there's more wisdom inside of you than you realize. And you're gonna go back and read some of the stuff and be like, no, doesn't apply anymore, or you know, and that's okay. April 25th, I ate a bag of Cheetos. Exactly. Did that again today? A lot of it is that, and that's okay too. But just being in the practice of like writing those things down, like you never know you know how those things are gonna impact you later. So that's that's what I do. And then the second thing I have, I have like another spreadsheet. That's brilliant. I need to say it because so many people ask the question, what advice would you go back and tell your younger self? And I think you flipping the script there is it just connects with me on such an intense level because you're right.

Yeah, we can teach ourselves that life is answering the question you brought up before who are we? Yeah, that's life. Figuring that out, exploring it, and you never probably will, but yeah, pursuit is the point. Absolutely. And so then thing number two, I just had to say that. Oh, I'm so glad you did. I'm so glad thank you. And it's just another version of that, and that's just keeping up with quotes that other people have that have said to me that I find very meaningful. So I have like a list of, and and I don't separate them. I have a list from famous people that really spoke to me, like everyone from Tony Morrison to Audrey Lord, like every everyone that people would know all the way down to people that are just in my have been in my everyday life, and and including moments.

So on that same spreadsheet, and I think it's just called quotes. It doesn't have a famous name, and it's not all quotes, but I have like stuff like the friend in college who gave you that mixtape, and that's how you found out about Sufan Stevens. Like I just have things like that just written out every time I think about it, and it's all there together. I don't I don't hierarch it amongst you know, hierarchy of like famous people versus right. No, it's all there, and that it's kind of like this inspirational board. And making a spreadsheet keeps me doing it because like there have been previous versions of this where I tried to make it too artsy, but then sometimes it gets too fixed. But it's but a list, just keeping a running list, that's something like anybody can do all the different versions of me with ADHD can remember to do.

It's like okay, that I know. Once I get bored of that, a list I can remember that. So yeah. Yeah, I relate to that on multiple levels. I mean, so many things you've touched on are such self-kindnesses. I also think a huge part of self-kindness, and for someone like you who's in the public eye now, it requires boundary setting. So, how do you kind of navigate your personal and professional life now that you have this community and this following, and you're such an open book and so vulnerable and so articulate and artistic and all the things, and at the same time, you're a living human who has to protect your heart. Have you found that journey to be difficult? Yeah, you have such good questions.

That's oh, thank you. That is such a good question. Yeah, it's it for me, it's it's knowing having for me, boundaries looks like having a place for things and how knowing where things go. So, for instance, I do not see social media as a place to connect with friends in a deep way. Some people do that, and that is okay, but I've decided that that's not what I do. Like for me, it's in group chat text messaging. For me, it's on the Marco Polo app, you know, if it's going to be on my phone, um, if it's not, you know, or in person. So I decide like that's not where I do that. So I don't feel the pressure to say, like, always be on Instagram to try to keep up with every single thing. I'm like, if I want to find out what's going on in my friend's life, like I do try to be in the habit of texting them and not just waiting for a social media post.

And I'm also like that, even when it comes to um just people like reaching out to me. Like, I've start to share with people like, hey, like DMs are getting really hard because the filters on Instagram don't really filter everything right. So I'm like, if you email me, there's a chance it could be seeing more. I don't see everything, but I just start to say like as many little things as I can, like, hey, this has a place, that has a place, and that helps me kind of focus. So I'm very clear about like how I see Instagram in particular. Like, I'm like, this is a space where I share the visual and creative writing part of my work. And that's about all I have time for, because even with that, there is so much upkeep that comes with that.

There's there's checking for typos and posts, there's responding to questions because sometimes I might turn a piece of work into a sticker, and it's like, well, what size is a sticker? So you're answering questions. It's like just with those two things. Like, like that is a full-time job. So I'm very serious about that. And and I also allow if if it needs to change in the future, it can. Like maybe someday I'm gonna wake up and be like, you know what? I really want to start sharing my Sims 4 content with my companies. We're waiting. Tempting as it is, I don't do it because I'm like, I need to have boundaries around this thing. And if I add another thing, then that's gonna keep me here more.

And I have other things I need to do in life. So yeah, it's in some ways I feel like it's kind of like a boring answer, but it really is the most realistic for me. Like I don't like um, for instance, with TikTok or any new social media that comes up, I am like it's a place where I'll explore, I'll try some things, but I'm not going to put pressure on myself to like make my TikTok exactly like my Instagram. It's like it's it's okay to just be like, yeah, I I put some things there, I explore there, but I don't have to treat it exactly the same everywhere and be everywhere all the time for everything. That's just not sustainable. So really knowing where when and where you're gonna do certain things, that that has been very helpful for me.

[1:00:54] Robert Peterpaul: This is helpful for everyone. That I mean, it continually the theme is taking the pressure off. And that maybe that's part of the healing you provide because pressure is a killer, you know.

[1:01:03] Morgan Harper Nichols: So that's very true.

[1:01:04] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I I think that was a that was a wonderful answer, even for people that aren't in the arts and just on social media with friends who say, Oh, you didn't like my last post. You didn't see I just posted that. Why are you asking me that? Yeah, it's like, oh, well, maybe I'm not as invested as you are in social media, and that's okay. Exactly. At the same time, and I know we're actually approaching time here. Do you have like five more minutes?

[1:01:25] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, I'm good. I'm just gonna get a sip of water really quick.

[1:01:27] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's okay. Sorry. Chuck, chuck. No, I'm just kidding. Makes me wonder, you know, being a role model, sort of as an artist on social media and then having this community and this responsibility, do you see and feel the need to kind of foster this kindness and this love within your own sort of comments and community? Sort of what are your thoughts on that?

[1:01:46] Morgan Harper Nichols: Oh, yes, that's something I I think about a lot. And I will say, like, I try not, I try not to be like social media doomer person, like, but that's an area where it is honestly gotten so difficult because a lot of the a lot of the things that I used to try to do to really foster community on on Instagram in particular, it's a lot harder, specifically because like your posts are just getting shared to people who don't have context, which if it's like a meme, that's fine. But it's like when you start talking about things that people might be leaving comments about their trauma or their different experiences, I am very protective about that. Like I I want people to feel safe to comment. So I try to now I I've really started to like if something if I think that a topic could someone might want to share sensitive information, I have started to put some of those things on Substack or in my mailing list or in my app.

And I I'm I try to offer as many free options as I can where to take that pressure off because a lot of times if someone, especially if someone is not um, you know, on social media professionally, they may not realize that I'm leaving this comment here about something going on in my life, but then if this if this post goes viral, then there could be people coming and responding to me with really harmful things. And for me, I'm like, I can I can take any comments that I because I expect I was like, okay, yeah, it's social media, people can say anything, but I don't I don't want other people to like I don't want to put them in that. So yeah, and then they start defending you, and then it's a exactly, yeah. And it just turns to a whole thing, and and that's always and that's always every time I've tried to like even address that a lot of times people be like, oh, we'll defend you.

[1:03:39] Morgan Harper Nichols: I'm like, it's actually not me. I'm like, I signed up, I sign up for this. You know, when you sign up to be a public figure, you sign up for people to, of course, you don't want all the wild stuff that can happen, but there's an awareness that of like, okay, people who don't know me are gonna say things, but yeah, it's something different if someone's commenting their personal story, and then people are that they don't know are just like, well, you should try this. And then there's so many bots too, and space. So I try not to be like social media, like doom, doom, doom. But I will say it has become harder for me to like say, hey, let's all leave comments about this. So what I try to do is just foster those spaces elsewhere.

So I send out a free email every day. And in that free email, thank you. In that free email, I encourage people like respond and you know, respond to me, and I'll respond to a lot of people there. And to me, I feel like that's the same thing. Like it still has that same level of like, yeah, you know that you are free to respond to this, and I welcome that. It may not always happen on, you know, it's like Instagram is 14 years old now. It's like these things are gonna change. So it's just for me, it's a matter of like, okay, that may have been Instagram in the early days, but maybe as time goes on, the places where we connect more deeply, you know, those platforms might change, and that's okay.

[1:05:02] Robert Peterpaul: Well, and I appreciate you creating your own kind spaces, you know, with the Storyteller app and your newsletter and just your community because you're right. I mean, it's sort of how we perceive it, but it can be hard when other people's perception isn't the same, and then they come in with this other energy that maybe you don't want around there.

[1:05:19] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah. But I will thank you just for always being a bright spot on social media. Because I know if I go to my little explorer button or I see you in my newsfeed, I see your signature colors, I just I know it's gonna make me feel okay. Oh, I felt that today with your newsletter, everybody. Everybody get you said something similar to what we were talking about, which is that it's okay to sort of I think not the answers and what will be, what will come will come. Anyway, I read it. Okay, so anyway, um as we wrap up here, because I know I gotta let you go, which is sad, I could talk to you for like another year. But when you think about the legacy you want to leave with your work, which I know starting off this sounds like a big question. What is it?

[1:05:59] Morgan Harper Nichols: No, I know you're so passionate about also developing specific resources like we were just discussing that explore the intersection of art and health, which I think is very similar to the theme of this podcast. How do you think kindness plays a role into that vision?

[1:06:16] Morgan Harper Nichols: That is wow, that's such a good question. And I can say when I think about legacy, for me, the word legacy and teacher are connected. So the story I shared earlier about my professor, that to me is the kind of kindness that I want to share through legacy. It's like if I can help someone else feel like they can have their own version of what I do. It's like if they've seen anything I've done, and they're like, wait, but what's my version of that? I'm like, that right there. That's what I'm going for. Because I think that's where things get passed on. And I consider myself to be very, very privileged that I've gotten to meet, like I got to meet one of my favorite, favorite songwriters ever. Um, and it was a moment where oh John Foreman of Switchfoot. So Switchfoot. Yes.

[1:07:10] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[1:07:12] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. I dare you to move. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's sing it. Yes. Okay. Okay. Sorry. So I just got overtaken. No, that's it. I know. And it's like that feeling. And I got to have like whole conversation with him. And I walked away feeling like I want to keep making my version of what your work made me feel like. And I want to keep pass that on. Like that feeling I had, that empowerment that I felt when I discovered your music when I was going through a really hard time as a teenager. And that's what I want to help pass on. It's not about me. It's about how can it pass on? Like through me, yes, but beyond me. So that's that's kind of what I hope. Like one of my favorite moments is when I I get like DMs from people or or emails, and they've like made their own version of my artwork.

I that to me, I'm like, yes, please. That's amazing. Like take it, make your own. Like do do better than I've done. Like go go on. Like keep it going. I really get excited about that. So that's kind of what I hope my legacy to be is to just pass it on.

[1:08:27] Robert Peterpaul: I think that's wonderful, that collaboration, and it's very generous of you. And you've been so generous with your time, which I think it's one of the kindest things you can do for someone. So unfortunately, I gotta let you go. But I would love if you could just end our little shared space together by sharing a tangible kindness tip. So something you would like listeners out there to do every day on their own corner, just to make the world a little brighter.

[1:08:51] Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. I would say every day, find a way that you can leave a kind comment on something. So that could be on some social media page, maybe like a creator who has like 200 followers. That little comment of saying, like, I really like your art, they're gonna remember that like people remember those things. A non-internet version of that is just saying to someone like, hey, I really like what you said yesterday. That meant a lot to me in that meeting. Thanks a lot. And that's all that's just kind comments. I think I think I like kind comments because that's something that it's a way to develop the muscle of just like being kind without like attachment. Like, you don't know if they're gonna respond or if they want to go deeper with it, or if they'll circle back later.

You don't know, but that's how you can get in a practice of just being aware and noticing things that are meaningful to you, things that feel kind to you in the world, and you just want to speak to it. So just one kind comment a day.

[1:09:55] Robert Peterpaul: That's amazing. Kind comments, and it has alliteration. Yes, I really like the specificity of that. No one said that yet. Championing other people is also why we're here. We gotta lift each other up. And that said, I just so admire you, and I truly feel privileged to be in a world where you exist and we can find your art and your words because they are transformative and they don't ever feel what's the word. I know it's it's coming from you and it's it's healing for you in a way, but it gives so much, and you're changing the world. So it's amazing to watch you grow, and I can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you for being here.

[1:10:34] Morgan Harper Nichols: Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this. I was looking forward to this, and I'm so glad we were able to chat today. I really am.

[1:10:41] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, me too. And I just again, I'm gonna be following you, not in person, that's so creepy, online forever, and just now I'm spiraling.

[1:10:54] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week. Did you know that science shows when we give to others, it improves our well-being. Did you know that? Not only is giving to others good for the receiver, but it comes back to us. And again, it's not why we do it, right? We talk a lot about that on here. Although I say, if you need a little pick me up this holiday season, why not decide to just do something good as a remedy? You know? It'll only have amazing ripple effects out there. Now, giving can come in many forms. We can give our time to someone, we can give money to someone. There are so many organizations out there that will be looking for your donations this giving Tuesday and beyond.

And that's wonderful if you have the means to do so. Actually, while we're here, I do want to shout out the incredible L. Morgan Lee, who we featured in our live Broadway con episode a while back. El Morgan is such a light in the Broadway community, such a talent. I'm talking Tony Nominee, okay? Woo! And also an incredibly beautiful and vulnerable soul. She really puts out so much joy and cheer on social media, which we need more than ever. And so it was all the more powerful recently when I came across a video of hers explaining that she needs our help. She put aside her shame and her pride and decided to ask for help. And I thought it was one of the most heartbreakingly beautiful things to witness.

Her hand is reaching out to us as she has fallen on hard times. And for someone of her stature, magnitude, power, you know, whatever you want to say in this industry, to make a video like this when so many artists around the world are also struggling, it's powerful on a lot of levels. First of all, it's powerful in the sense that all the people that look up to her are now getting a real life glimpse into the daily struggle of an artist behind the glitz and glamour that we might see on red carpets. There's a lot more going on. I saw this during the pandemic. I know myself, obviously, there were no theatrical productions and no TV or film project shooting. I mean, that's a big reason why I started this podcast was to have a creative outlet.

And I also saw friends that were on Broadway delivering packages for Amazon, going back to their restaurant jobs. And all this to say, I really applaud that Elle Morgan did this. Thank you for doing this. I know it must have been incredibly hard to put out there. And I'm sorry that you had to put it out there. And I wish that you weren't in that position. But I love that you are asking for help. And I think that's a great lesson for everyone out there. It is kind to yourself to ask for help. And you know what? It's also kind to others because people want to help you. I know helping others makes me feel the best ever. I mean, that's my favorite thing to do in life, I think, is helping others, right?

How good does that make you feel to help someone do the dishes? How good does that make you feel to donate money? How good does it make you feel to see the person struggling with their groceries and hold the door open for them? Or go the extra step and carry the groceries for them. These things make us feel good. So again, it's kindness on so many levels. And I know this was a bit of a tangent, and I hope it made sense. I just want to shout at the fact that Elle Morgan put this beautiful video out on her Instagram. She started a GoFundMe so we can all go help her in this lull period where she needs us. So please, if you're in the position to head to the link in her bio on Instagram at LMorgan Lee.

We are sending so much love your way, El Morgan. On another level, I think we can give to others by simply shouting out our friends and highlighting the people that are working so hard in this world to achieve their dreams. And so this time of year, it makes me want to shout from the rooftops right next to Santa. Hoo, ho, hoo, about my friend, the Cozy Christmas Podcast. If you're looking for the most warm, fuzzy listen, check it out wherever you listen to podcasts. You may even hear a familiar voice in a certain episode. So please, no matter how you do it this holiday season, give. Remember to give to others. It also gives to you, and it helps us build a kinder world. You have given me so much by tuning in and sharing space with me today.

[1:15:54] Robert Peterpaul: I'm gonna play that on a loop, honestly, as I just go throughout life. Thank you, Morgan Harper Nichols. Thank you all for listening. And remember, until next time, everything is gonna be A okay.