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[0:06] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to The Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the sky a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:49] Robert Peterpaul: This will likely be the last episode of 2022. I can't believe it. So I just want to take a moment to say how grateful I am to each and every one of you for listening. Doing this show is such a joy for me and such a creative outlet for me. And I love that you love it too. I want to take a moment to acknowledge and read some of the beautiful reviews that we have gotten this year because the people who take the time to do that really go the extra mile, and it is so lovely and wonderful. Anthony, hi Anthony, called our show Positively Life Changing. Oh wow. He said, listening to this show every day has truly changed my perspective for the better. Robert is the host with the most. Oh, he and his star guests bring so much positivity to the world.

I love the kindness tips and can't wait for more episodes. Spread kindness. Ah that was amazing. Thank you so much, Anthony. Wow, yes. Spread kindness. Honestly, I feel like I'm gonna cry, so I can't read any more of those out loud right now. It's a little bit surreal. I'm leaving my body and I need to do this intro. So we're gonna leave it there. Thank you all so much to your listeners who again have left us reviews on the platform of your choice. It is so kind. I am so grateful. And again, it is my absolute pleasure to share this show with you. And we can't wait to bring you even more episodes in 2023. What of course, what are we here for today? What's this? What's this? This episode is all about the star of Tim Burton's's The Nightmare Before Christmas and many other projects like The Princess Bride, Chris Sarandon.

Chris Sarandon was born and raised in West Virginia. He eventually earned a degree in speech at West Virginia University, and then a master's degree in theater from The Catholic University of America. After graduation, Chris toured with numerous improvisational companies and broke onto the regional theater scene. In 1968, Sarandon settled in New York City, where he obtained his first television credit on the series The Guiding Light, which led to some other TV movie roles before he made his turn in Dog Day Afternoon in 1975. The performance earned him nominations for Best New Male Star of the Year at the Golden Globes, and even the coveted Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. Some of Chris's other on-screen roles over the years have included the long-running series ER, co-starring with Dennis Hopper in the 1983 movie The Osterman Weekend, starring opposite Goldie Hawn, I love her, in Protocol, and the cult classic horror film, Fright Night.

Of course, Chris is forever remembered for his endearing turn in The Princess Bride, leading the film Child's Play, and then voicing the main character for one of the most beloved holiday films of all time, Tim Burton's's The Nightmare Before Christmas. Chris voices the iconic role of Pumpkin King Jack Skellington, blending beautifully with Danny Elfman's singing voice. Since its 1993 release, this film has been minted as a holiday classic. Chris continues to keep Jack Skellington's legacy alive, reprising the role in Disney video games, Disneyland Halloween events, and for various film merchandise items. Go search Nightmare Before Christmas on Google, enter the shopping button, and you will find some amazing things. I'm just saying.

[5:01] Robert Peterpaul: Which includes wife Joanna Gleason, who you may know from her own illustrious career. I have watched The Into the Woods Bootleg. She is in that cast, and she's phenomenal. She also starred with Chris on Broadway. Chris infuses his love for family and food into his new podcast, Cooking by Heart, which you can stream now across podcast platforms. But please listen to this episode first. We cover so much ground together in this chat, and I hope it gives you all the holiday feels. In fact, I hope this is a little dream before Christmas. Huh? See what I did there? Huh? Please stay tuned after our chat for a special holiday kindness tip with my love Cassie. Cassie Peterpaul. Ha ha, because we just got married. Okay. Now without further ado, please welcome the kind Chris Sarandon.

[6:04] Chris Sarandon: Hello. Hello, good morning. Hi Robert, how are you? Nice to meet you.

[6:09] Chris Sarandon: So something funny just kind of clicked for me because I was walking downtown one day, and I see a poster that they're having a screening for The Nightmare Before Christmas around Halloween time, and you were hosting it.

[6:20] Chris Sarandon: Oh, I live in Connecticut.

[6:22] Robert Peterpaul: That's right.

[6:23] Chris Sarandon: Yeah. So I just thought that was kind of a funny thing resuming from like across the 95 here.

[6:28] Chris Sarandon: Yeah. And uh we're having another live podcast in January on the 21st with Jacques Pepin.

[6:35] Chris Sarandon: The renowned chef author, extraordinary man. I'm at the moment reading his childhood memoir as well as his moving into his adult years, and it's what a fascinating, extraordinary man he is.

[6:52] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, that's so cool. Is it gonna be at the community theater there?

[6:55] Chris Sarandon: We're doing it at the community theater. It's gonna be a live event on January the 21st, in downtown Fairfield, Connecticut, and Monsieur Pepin is also going to be signing his newest book, Art of the Chicken, which is, which is, you know, you start to look through it and it's just so amazing because there are these extraordinary paintings that he's done. He's been an artist as well as a master chef all of his life, and it's a wonderful book and he's an extraordinary man, so I'm very much looking forward to it. But more to the point, what are we talking about today? I'm looking forward to talking with you today because I am such a big fan. I mean, you are just such kind of your own unique bright wonderfully weird light in this industry and you have been for so long, and I want to thank you for all you've done to kind of like inject that light into our world.

[6:57] Chris Sarandon: Well thank you. Thank you, and I love that description by the way, wonderfully weird light. It's perfect.

[6:57] Robert Peterpaul: Okay good, I'm glad. I saw weird was on your IMDB page and weird is like one of my favorite words, and I mean it with all the endearment.

[8:09] Robert Peterpaul: No, okay good. You know, because from The Princess Bride to The Nightmare Before Christmas, which obviously I want to get into since it is the holiday season.

[8:17] Chris Sarandon: I don't take it as being pejorative at all.

[8:17] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, right. I just really admire your work so much and I even started listening to your podcast, which everyone should go subscribe to, Cooking by Heart, and I feel like I've gotten to know you more and your family, and it's just such a cozy wonderful conversation. You know, a lot of podcasts can be very interview-like and I try to keep mine at that crossroads between interview and conversation, but yours is always such a spiraling conversation that just feels like you're sitting around a table and probably eating, honestly.

[8:46] Chris Sarandon: So that's the sort of feel I'm trying for.

[8:48] Robert Peterpaul: So thank you.

[8:51] Chris Sarandon: Well, you're succeeding. You're succeeding in getting that at least to me. And I guess I could just keep complimenting you this whole time.

[8:57] Robert Peterpaul: But before I do it.

[8:59] Chris Sarandon: Go ahead.

[9:00] Robert Peterpaul: All right, let's do it. No, I would love to just know how are you at accepting compliments as someone who I'm guessing has gotten a lot over the years.

[9:08] Chris Sarandon: Well, when you balance out the amount of rejection that most actors go through, when I'm no exception, I've spent my life, and when I say my life, the vast majority of my life as an actor, from the time I was in my early 20s till now. And during that time, rejection is a constant theme throughout. Every time you go in for an audition, or you wait to hear about whether you've gotten a role or not, whether you're going to be working. I tell the story all the time, and forgive me if I'm repeating if any of your listeners have heard it before. But when my middle daughter was, I guess, five or six, and she and a friend and the friend's mom were out for some ice cream or a pizza or whatever after school, and they were sitting there, and the mom was talking to the girls about their fathers and what their dads did.

And the woman turned to her own daughter and said, You know what daddy does, don't you? And the old friend of my daughter said, Yeah, yeah, he makes wires in houses. And the mom said, That's right, dad's an electrician. And she turned to my daughter and she said, And you know what your daddy does, don't you? And she said, Yeah, he looks for work. Well, that's the reality of my life. I, you know, spent a lot of time either away from home so that my kids didn't see me for a while, or at home, promoting myself or promoting my ability to have the next job. And I don't say this in a way that is regretful in any shape or form, because one of the adventures of being an actor is you don't know what's next, and so it keeps you in a way on the precipice of hopefulness mixed with anxiety, and I don't think that's a terrible way to live because that's what being alive is.

It's we teeter between wanting great things to happen to us, wonderful things, we want our lives to be perfect, and the realities of having to deal with life, whether it's sickness or in my case, for instance, there was a time in my life where I went through a major financial difficulty. And always you come out of those times, be they the high times or the low times, learning something. And if you absorb that lesson, then you're better for it. And if you don't, well, you know, that's a problem.

[12:04] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I agree. I think it's leaning into the love because they say there's only really two emotions, love and fear, and it's kind of like what you were just describing as hopefulness and anxiety, sort of the same like yin and yang, right there.

[12:16] Chris Sarandon: And so if you learn to lean into the love, which I think can be tricky as an actor because, like you also just said, it becomes very insular. You have to learn to promote yourself and believe in yourself, but then sometimes that can be taken too far. Like I was just shooting something in LA and you know, without going too much into it, I was seeing how people learn to be so guarded, and that when they're interacting with a new day player or the onset photographer or whatever it is, it just comes across as inhumane in a lot of ways. And so it's hard to find that balance. And I know you've kind of discussed that, especially with your Oscar nomination, which is iconic and such an amazing achievement.

And you kind of talked about how that gave you like a big head and kind of grappling with coming back down to earth in some ways. Right. It's a tough balance. And for someone that's achieved so much like you, I would love to know how you feel like you snap yourself back into kindness if you've ever had to. I mean, you seem like a very lovely person all around. So I don't know if it's work. I, you know, uh, and I guess this goes along with what I was just talking about about the duality of existence as an actor between hopefulness and sadness and regret or fear of not working again, or you know, whatever it is, that those two polar opposites that you talked about. And I know that even at this point in my life, when I go into a new group of people, for instance, I just finished doing a pop culture convention.

And there at the convention were a number of luminaries, people who are much more famous than I am and I still harbor feelings of not inferiority so much as golly, can I approach that person? Can I talk to that person? And if you give in to that and anxiety then it doesn't leave much room for communication and connection and by extension love. So you have to put yourself out there and that's one of the things that actors have to do and we're constantly doing it because we're constantly thrown into situations with new people and we all have anxieties about having that kind of constant social pressure. And I guess part of what happens as you get older is either you give in to those feelings of anxiety or you become not so much inured, not so much that you don't feel them as you go, well you know what have I got to lose by approaching this person or talking to somebody or being part of a social interaction that might benefit me or it might not. You never know but you don't know until you try.

[15:35] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love it. You don't know if you until you put yourself out there. It's not easy. I don't think it's easy for anyone. I mean you talk to people who are extraordinarily famous. And they will say, and I have in my life spoken to people like that, and they will say there is always somebody who I admire or whom I am in awe of, or whom I feel uncomfortable around. Um so, you know, it works itself out over time, I guess. I’m at an age now where I don’t worry as much about what other people think of me.

[16:13] Chris Sarandon: Hmm. I think that's an important lesson because it is true, no matter who you talk to, and I've talked to some really kind of legendary people, and then you find out they experience imposter syndrome or whatever it is. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's kind of like if you're approaching things with that filter of oh, I can't talk to that person. They might think down on me, they might not know who I am, whatever it is. You're gonna see those signs even when you're talking to that person. Oh, they looked away. They do, and you're just gonna build this case that kind of matches what you're thinking.

[16:41] Chris Sarandon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I just finished doing this pop culture convention, and there's always a, I won't get into it at any rate. We've I think sort of exhausted this part of the conversation.

[17:05] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean what listen, wherever you want to go, but I love that you do those also. I was admiring that because it's so important with the work you've done to continue that connection, and you've been able to do that over the years by attending these events and being kind to your fans, and you know, we've certainly kind of gone down a rabbit hole already, but I usually like to ask at the top, just to start out, since we are kind of exploring themes of kindness, how would you define kindness if you had to?

[17:32] Chris Sarandon: To me, kindness begins with the golden rule. For one of a better way of describing it, that is do unto others as you would have them do unto you, the biblical admonition. Because that leads to empathy, that is a sense of understanding where the other person is coming from, and by extension, leads to I think kindness. I’ll go back to this talking about these conventions because there's something I talk about probably too much, but I think it's important.

[18:14] Chris Sarandon: Yeah, and that is that I've worked in the theater and I've worked on films and television, and when you're in the theater, you have a sense of communication with your audience because they're there every night, it's different every night, and you are in a sort of symbiosis with them. You are exchanging information that is emotional, that's psychic, that's intellectual. There's a lot of stuff going on between you and an audience. But when you do television and film, you are basically just in communication with the people you work with, all of whom are really interesting and are craftsmen, are artists, but you don't have that sense of what your audience gains and what you gain from them, and what these exposures in these conventions do is that gives you a chance to meet fans of the work that you're in, and to first of all, understand what it means in their lives, but also it means as much to it, it should mean as much to the person who is giving the autograph or talking to the fans, because it's about the understanding that we all need to be seen in some way, shape, or form.

[19:39] Chris Sarandon: And a lot of people live lives where the vast amount of enjoyment they get in a day is watching a film or seeing a play or listening to music, which is what the arts do. And if it's just to allow them to step back from the pain of their life or the humdrum of their life, or whatever it is that gives them some relief from, then it's a service. We are in and in a way, in the exchange between the artist and the fan, that's a service as well. They provide a service for me because it makes me understand that I'm part of a big picture, that it's not just about me, that this signature that I've signed or this interchange that I've had with the fan or fans is not just about meeting somebody, quote unquote famous, it's about that they're just I'm just like them, and they're just like me. And that's important. And that to me is the beginning of possibilities for kindness.

[20:58] Robert Peterpaul: I love that you see it that way because you do see it as this superpower where you're on stage doing a talk back, and even if it's an accident, you make eye contact with someone in the audience, that's gonna fill them with so much joy because it makes them feel seen, and that's something that people that don't have this recognition can't do. So it is this really beautiful gift, and I'm glad it is a reciprocal gift, you know, for you too.

[21:22] Chris Sarandon: Right. And it's not just, you know, it's not just about somebody going home with an autograph and going, oh, look what I've got. I met so and so. It's also about that was a special time in my life. That was a special moment in my life that makes me feel better about myself. And by the way, it makes me, Chris Sarandon, feel better about myself as well.

[21:45] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[21:45] Chris Sarandon: Yeah to be able to have that interchange. Well, if I had told my little self who loves Nightmare Before Christmas that I'd be talking to you, I certainly probably would have passed out. And I've had a couple of these moments recently where I know you must know David Kirschner, obviously from Child's Play, who's such a lovely man, and we're friendly now, and he came on here because I'm a Hocus Pocus nerd and I love all those dark, weirdly wonderful things.

[22:09] Chris Sarandon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I looked up to him and you and so many people, and I would love to know for you, who's had this incredible career that many actors dream of. And I know growing up you were a movie buff who wanted to have that too. As someone who kind of has that now, I know it's different when you're in it and it's the years have piled on, but is there somebody that stands out to you as kind of being your mentor or someone that showed you kindness along the way that you feel like put you on a certain path and changed your life?

[22:37] Chris Sarandon: I think of two people, and I thought about I've mentioned this in passing. So again, if anybody who's heard these stories will indulge me. One was the guy in my very first acting class in college who took me aside and said, You're good at this. You should keep doing this. Why are you doing and by extension, why are you involved in the sort of what not inanity in a way it was because I was involved in politics and I was doing all sorts of you know self-aggrandizing activities on campus. I was coordinating, you know, such and such, and I was doing this and I was doing that, and I wanted to be student body president, and I, you know, I was just like full of myself. And this guy basically said, step back and look at what you have and use it, because if you don't, you'll regret this for the rest of your life.

And not only did he say that to me, but he also put it into motion because he said, Okay, I want you to be in a play. And I was in a, you know, played a small part in a play of his, and I enjoyed it a lot. And then the next play, he said, I want you to play the lead in this play, and I had to make a choice. And thank the universe, thank God, whatever higher power you believe in, that I stopped and went, this feels right. And I went forward and it became my life. So that was the number one, his name was Professor Chuck Neal, Charles Neal at West Virginia University when I was an undergrad in college.

[24:29] Chris Sarandon: And then I also took a course, a poetry course, just for the grade, by the way. All you did was just go to the class. And the professor's name was Patrick Gaynor, we'll never forget it. He did not have a personal interaction with me, but he gave me through his work a sense of being of synthesizing at the time a duality of who I was, which was that I was a Greek, full-blooded Greek, son of first generation, son of immigrants, who uh uh was also lived and was brought up and and raised in a state, a small, relatively small state in a coal mining town. And I I didn't know quite who I was. Um I I when I was a little boy, my parents would parade me around and and say, okay, tell them who you are, and I would say I'm 100% American and full-blooded Greek.

And that was the duality of who I was. And this guy was uh a chronicler of the history of folk music, but particularly as it pertains to West Virginia. And he would go around and record people in their homes who uh would sing songs on this old you know, monstrous tape recorder that he had to lug around. This was in the 60s, the early 60s. And uh those songs he showed us were uh came down to them through many centuries of being passed orally through their parents, their parents' parents, their parents' parents who immigrated to this country from Scotland, from Ireland, from Scandinavia, wherever. And and suddenly I felt like, oh, so I'm part of this tradition, this this West Virginia old, very old music poetry tradition, but I'm also part of this ancient Greek tradition, and they're not so dissimilar because the ancient Greek ballads, you know, I was I I went on a trip when I was a kid, uh uh when I was 13 to Greece, uh my father's homeland and my mother's, and uh there was a display of f dances on the on the foot of the Acropolis, and the man who was announcing, and as these dancers came out in pantaloons and they were playing uh uh reed pipes and and bagpipes, uh uh, you know, very old stuff, okay.

And he said, these dances are the dances of the closest approximation of what we have to the dances that were on the plains of Troy. And I thought, whoa, you know, we're going back to Homer and uh the great sort of ancient ancient traditions, and not so different from the traditions that this Patrick Gainer was talking about. So it was a real sort of wonderful kind of, oh God, this is what I've been looking for for my life. This is who I am. I'm a I'm a combination of all these things, and it's okay. Yeah, it's okay to be a combination of all these things, which is what's wonderful about being an American. Is that despite the fact that there are people out there who are fighting against uh immigration, that that's what's been the lifeblood of this country for its entire existence, is people who come here for sh for for shelter against religious persecution or political persecution or for whatever reason, or just poverty, and who have worked hard and have become part of the fabric of the country on the one hand, but on the other hand, have still observed their own traditions.

I still observe traditions. That's what I talk about in my podcast. I talk about to people about when they were growing up, and what were their conditions? Yeah. So that's a long-winded answer to your question.

[28:32] Robert Peterpaul: Oh my gosh, I have so many follow-ups in my brain that we obviously don't have time for. But I think something that keeps coming up too is just people have duality and people don't have to be one thing, and you don't have to paint people in a box like a lot of us for some reason like to do now, because it's easier and when we're, you know, civilization built on things being very easy. But it's interesting too, because certainly the craft of acting was built on the Greeks. And you know, you you've said before your first real role was kind of in growing up and trying to play that American when you were out in school, and that's very common with actors as well. I mean, Meryl Streep has said her first role was the cheerleader in high school, the popular girl.

Yeah. And uh it's it's such a cool confluence to hear how your journey has ended up because you ultimately found that solace in a big American thing, which is the entertainment industry, but then yet it's built on your culture. So I just I think it's pretty much.

[29:29] Chris Sarandon: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. I'm analyzing you right now in front of you, but um you know, whatever. You I know you were on uh one of my favorite podcasts inside of you, which I think goes a little bit further, so it's fine. You know, one of the hardest things I think to do as an actor is like we kind of touched on, even though you're you're being pointed in that direction by this act of kindness is not standing in your own way, and that's something certainly acting classes have not incorporated until maybe now they're starting to so absorb absorp absorb the kind absorb the kindness let it flow through you and and understand where it's coming from and also how you can use it to to move along in your life in a positive way you talked about it fear absorb the love not the fear of whatever it is that you're worried about and you and use that energy because we certainly take in all the negative energy and don't forget that for some reason so I like that it's and and we're living in a very negative time as well.

[30:29] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah it's very true but you know one thing that's positive is it is the holiday season it's Christmas time and I know everybody's playing the nightmare before Christmas on their TVs 247 for the most part so I'd love to kind of dissect a little bit of that with you if you'll indulge me.

[30:43] Chris Sarandon: Yeah yeah yeah so first of all you know I read a lot on it but I guess just to start out how did you kind of go about creating Jack Skellington's speaking voice because I know you sort of felt like you were picked almost because you had to match the songs that were already recorded I believe.

[30:57] Chris Sarandon: Right, right. So what was that process like well it it's interesting because I think it was a matter of uh if for want of a better word natural selection in that the the timbre of my voice the sound of my voice was close to Danny Elfman's uh who had already recorded the songs so they needed a voice that's had that kind of that kind of flow with Danny's and so luckily just you know I'm I'm predating my heredity as much as anything uh you know what what I was blessed with when when my voice developed into a young adult male or an older adult male for that matter. Uh so that's a good title, crediting my heredity. Almost rhyme. And so I give that probably the most credit in that I I think it's a matter of of serendipity of luck that what what when they heard my speaking voice doing Jack, they said, Oh, this is this is gonna work with Danny Elfman's voice.

Uh uh and also the fact that uh I'm an actor and I'd had a lot of experience and I gave the character some some life. Uh uh I guess the the combination of those two. I can't speak for the people who cast me, but I can I can say that was my experience.

[32:13] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. And did you feel that too, especially working with Disney? I mean, I was just at the Academy Museum and they have the whole history of animation there. And have you been?

[32:22] Chris Sarandon: No, I haven't yet. I haven't had a chance to.

[32:23] Robert Peterpaul: Well, you are on Nightmare Before Christmas is on display. I mean, they have all of Jack's heads in a glass case, like certainly lined up in this way.

[32:32] Chris Sarandon: They don't have all of them. I've got four of them.

[32:34] Robert Peterpaul: Oh no, okay.

[32:35] Chris Sarandon: I've got four.

[32:36] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, well, look at that. Don't tell them they might ask you to donate it.

[32:40] Chris Sarandon: No, they have enough. They have a lot of them, but I'm sure there were some four hundred, I think.

[32:44] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, wow.

[32:44] Chris Sarandon: Together. Yeah, there were a lot. I mean, it just blows my mind how that was done. But you know, you you read about how voice actors, you know, maybe it was like Ariel and The Little Mermaid was one of the first times the the voice actor sort of was like carted out and did press and was was uh notable. So I was wondering for you while you were doing it, was there like this excitement to be in a Disney film where you kinda like, I'm not sure what this is, but it's weird and I like it. You know, what was kind of your mindset?

[33:10] Chris Sarandon: My mindset essentially was first of all, just the good fortune of being a part of something that Tim Burton's did, because I've always been a big fan of Tim's. Uh and uh also to work with Henry Selleck, the director, who had a uh uh uh extraordinary history of stop action animation before and after Nightmare. He's also the creator of Coraline, um James and the Giant Peach. Uh uh Henry is a master of this medium. And so the combination of being able to work with both of them was just so fortuitous. Uh, I I didn't really have a sense of the Disney, for want of a better way of describing it, the Disney machine, until I started doing these Comic Cons, and people would bring um merchandise that Disney uh as I will say now cranks out because there's stuff that I see at every one of these things that's new and different each time.

You know, there are there are doorknobs with Jack's face on it. There are uh models, different models of Jack. There are extraordinary Funko. There's a Yahtzee game. There's I mean I've seen it's crazy the amount of merchandise that exists and that keeps coming out. I just did uh uh they use my voice for a number of products that are that came out this Christmas that had never been and that had come out before.

[34:35] Chris Sarandon: Wow. Uh that are that were uh actual, I think toys that had the voice in it in them. I'm not sure exactly what they were, but at any rate, uh there's a constant stream of so it it's it's the popularity of the movie because kids discover it when they're little and then they grow up and now their kids watch it, uh, in addition to the products that Disney keeps producing, the merchandise, which I think um fosters this uh the the continuing uh interest in and love of uh The Nightmare Before Christmas, Tim's Tim Burton's's the nightmare before Christmas yes and and you're a big part of that too I think in this giving back like we've talked about with the conventions and keeping the legacy going and you know I mentioned Jody Benson Ariel was on here recently she does the same thing and and I think having that ambassador who is showing kindness and out there you know keeping the legacy alive is a big part of it so thank you for doing that.

[34:41] Chris Sarandon: Oh my pleasure and and touching on Tim Burton's uh who's obviously trending again with Wednesday and then Henry Selleck recently had a lovely film come out again they're both incredible was there something kind of unexpected that came out of this experience or during this experience that sticks with you know I'm sure I'm sure you had a notion in your head of what it would be like to work with a Tim Burton's in this darkly twisted world but was there anything looking back that sort of surprised you in the way they work?

[34:41] Chris Sarandon: I I guess it was the the I I had done one other voice voiceover character uh and uh it was a very different experience in that essentially I went into a studio and I I knew these guys uh who were doing it I I think it was a low budget animation and I knew them from I can't remember exactly where I knew them from but at any rate I went in and and did it in a studio and I was playing an old old sort of minor codger kind of uh which I loved doing I love playing character roles with voices and so I'd had that experience but it was very limited and then to go in uh and over a two-year period, you know, every three months, I would fly up to San Francisco from at the time I was living in in Los Angeles, and I would record with Henry Selleck.

[36:56] Chris Sarandon: And that was a very different experience because I was literally taking two or three scenes, and we were doing it literally line by line over and over and over again, giving him different choices. So Henry would say, try it this way. Hit this word, don't hit that word. And so it was on the one hand, you're being controlled in a very specific way as an actor, but on the other hand, it frees your creativity in that. I mean, I guess the only analogy I can draw is that, for instance, when this there are no way analogous in terms of the actual experience, right? But this is a loose kind of connection. Back in the day when the Iron Curtain was alive in Eastern Europe, artists found ways to express themselves despite the restrictions that they were given.

It's the same with music. That when Beethoven and Mozart were writing, there was the quote the sonata form, which was a way of creating music in which if you were writing a symphony there were four movements, the first one was fast, the second one was this, the third one was this, and then the fourth one was that. Well, those were the rules. So they had to operate within those rules, but what they ended up having to do was figure out a way of expressing themselves in a unique way within that strict framework. And so that was the challenge in doing a job like this, where I had to listen to Henry because he had the big picture in mind. He knew what this was gonna look like. But he wanted to have a sense of my input into that world on the one hand, but at the same time he wanted me to fulfill the structure that he had in his head.

So he would say, you know, try it this way, try it this way, but then give me three or four different takes where you're just just go with it, just see what happens. And so in some ways it was very freeing and fun and improvisational, even though I had a very sort of restricted kind of area in which to operate, I was given free reign. So that was it was very cool, and that's I wasn't expecting that.

[39:27] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's an actor's dream. I mean, you bring yourself to it and then you contrast it against auditions where you're going in and you're like, what is the tone of this? What do they want? I don't have the information. And so you're you know, and it's like a singer, they get the song with the notes, but they put their spin on it. So that sounds like such a beautiful collaboration, and it certainly is a timeless film. And I'm sure you get asked this all the time, and I know Tim has been asked this every Christmas probably, but and he said he wasn't on board. I don't know if that was recently, but he didn't come in, he didn't come in until the very end.

[40:00] Chris Sarandon: Yes. Tim wasn't actually there. Tim Burton's wasn't, and then I worked with him a little bit toward the end once everything was put together.

[40:08] Robert Peterpaul: So go ahead, go ahead.

[40:09] Chris Sarandon: Oh no, you're fine. Sorry, I probably didn't say it right, but what I was meaning too was like he wasn't always on board with the idea of doing a follow-up film or a sequel, and I know your work still lives on through the toys and then the video games and everything you lend your voice to. But what are your thoughts on that? I mean, in this world where everything's being rebooted, there's a Hocus Pocus 2 that just came out. I mean, people want it. So I know there's a certain artistic integrity that goes against that sometimes. But do you have any thoughts? Or you're just kind of whatever Tim wants.

[40:59] Chris Sarandon: And whether it would be me in a sequel or not, I don't know. But at the same time, I respect Tim's thoughts. I mean, this happened, for instance, with William Goldman with The Princess Bride, where there was a great demand for a sequel. And he tried to create a sequel and ultimately gave up because he felt that he couldn't, for want of a better way of describing it, crack the story. He couldn't really, you know, he had a title, he had a sort of idea of what he wanted. It was called Buttercup's Baby. And ultimately he gave up because he wasn't able to really come up with an idea that satisfied him down the road. And I don't know how Tim feels about doing a sequel. I've heard various things, but you know, they could be true or not.

[41:49] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, the nightmare before Thanksgiving. I mean, you never know. We could get a Sally spin-off with the lovely Kathleen O'Hara and you and your baby, which I just found out is at the end of the movie of a kid in the epilogue.

[42:02] Chris Sarandon: Oh, I didn't know that.

[42:04] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's in the music and the soundtrack. I guess they didn't use the song in the film, but just in doing research, there were so many fun facts I didn't know.

[42:11] Chris Sarandon: Uh-huh. Now, you know, I think to me the movie, and it probably went over my head as a kid, but it kind of screams besides the character screaming, it sort of screams this message of embracing who you are and not trying to fit into someone else's shoes or Santa hat for that matter. Is that something you felt like you've struggled with in the public eye or as an actor?

[42:32] Chris Sarandon: Of course.

[42:34] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[42:34] Chris Sarandon: Absolutely.

[42:36] Chris Sarandon: And something that I still struggle with. For instance, as I've gotten older, roles have become less available just for demographic reasons. I've gotten older, the roles that I play, I can't play 25 anymore, I can't play 45 anymore. I can maybe get away with somebody in his 60s, but they're not a lot of roles written for men in that age group of my type. So at some point, it was for instance, the reason I came up with the podcast is because I needed a creative outlet and didn't know what to do, and I was sort of languishing during the pandemic. And my brother-in-law, my dear brother-in-law, said, Why don't you do a podcast? And I didn't know what to do. And he said, Come on, you know, you're Greek, you cook for us whenever you come, so you're a cook.

I'm not a chef, but I am a cook. And you grew up in a restaurant. So what else would you talk about on a podcast? And then I realized I grew up in a restaurant, which means it's what the most vivid memories of my life in and food are when I was a kid. So that's what I talk to people about. What was it like when you were a kid? What was it like at around your dinner table? How did it affect your adult life? Are there things that you still cook or savor as an adult that you loved when you were a child? So many stories come out of it, the of this conversation, by the way, and the people involved, the you know, parents or friends, or if you went to a friend's house for dinner sometime and you discovered it's you know, there's a lot of stuff that comes out of it, and it's become very satisfying for me because the conversations are fascinating and the people are fascinating.

[44:21] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it is so true. That's the wonderful thing about having a podcast is it does take a lot of creative energy and it leaves you feeling very satisfied.

[44:29] Chris Sarandon: And yeah, you have to learn, you have to be curious and learn.

[44:33] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah. We listen, I never want to stop being curious. I think once you do, you're probably in a coffin. Not to get morbid, but you know, your podcast is so wonderful, and I I'm glad you brought it up again because when I was listening to it, I think it was the Thanksgiving episode with your kids. You're right, so many things do come up, and you started discussing a bit the set dynamics with your family and how saying a production's vibe or tone really trickles down from the top, the leader, which I think is across the board in all industries.

[44:48] Chris Sarandon: No, endeavors, yeah, everything.

[45:03] Robert Peterpaul: So, what do you think as someone who's worked on a lot of sets and Broadway shows and regional theater and has all this experience? I guess what do you think makes a good leader and what would you like to see more of across the board to kind of make it a kinder industry?

[45:17] Chris Sarandon: Well, since the subject of this the show is kindness, yeah. I think that a good leader has a vision, obviously, of what they want to accomplish, but not a vision that is so rigid that it doesn't allow for collaboration, and the best people who work at the top, to me, anyway, are the ones who appreciate others' contributions, who are able to delegate in the expert fields of the people who are working for them. You know, the great, great directors, for instance, in film and on the stage for that matter, rely on people who are great at what they do, who are great at casting, who are great at designing, who are great at lighting. If you look back at the history of film, for instance, you know, the great great directors of our film industry, not just here, but in Europe and in Asia, all over the world are people who had working with them, extraordinary people who were artists at what's in their particular field.

And so to me, the only directors that I've ever worked with, and they're very few, by the way, who were not able to do that were the work showed it. The work was not collaborative. I mean, every movie that we've talked about today, and others, you know, not only the Nightmare Before Christmas, but The Princess Bride, Dog Day Afternoon, Sidney Lamette and his extraordinary group of people that he worked with and his casts, you know. If you look at the casts of Sidney's movies, he always picked the exactly the right people. It's about collaboration and also empathy, the ability to listen. They're all of paramount importance. That's what to me what creates a good leader. That somebody the sort of person that people want to follow.

[47:32] Robert Peterpaul: My wife.

[47:33] Chris Sarandon: Oh, I'm such a big fan of your wife. Joanna Gleason, she just made a movie and her cast loved her. The tech people loved her. This was her first film ever.

[47:43] Chris Sarandon: Wow. She's also a master teacher, an acting teacher. And so I think her experience came through there, but also her ability to listen, her ability to empathize and also her ability to be honest without being hurtful with people was you know so I'll give her a plug her movie's called The Grotto. It's gonna be out soon and it's really wonderful.

[48:08] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[48:09] Chris Sarandon: She's so wonderful in everything and it feels like we see her on screen so much because I mean we all of us leader nerds are always watching the Into the Woods YouTube video that she's in and so recognizable in so I'm glad that you plugged that because she deserves it and it is true I think the honesty is a huge part of it and and vulnerability is a huge part of kindness and it just it takes a lot and I know it takes a lot for each of the hundreds of people that probably come up to you at these conventions to actually say what you mean to them. So it's wonderful that you're someone who's listening and receives it and it is that like reciprocal interaction that exchange of love at the end of the day.

[48:48] Robert Peterpaul: And yeah exactly yeah and I feel that when I watch your movies and I'm so thrilled that I got this little slice of life with you.

[48:56] Robert Peterpaul: So I would just love if we could end our time together by you sharing a tangible kindness or wellness tip that you would like for our listeners to take with them and incorporate into their day.

[49:11] Chris Sarandon: I go back to the first thing we very first thing I we talked about when I said the golden rule. When I talked about, you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Think about how the other person feels in whatever exchange you're in. And it doesn't necessarily have to mean that you will sublimate yourself to it as much as understand. There's an analogy here with playing all sorts of characters if you're an actor, that if you're playing a bad person, the bad person, the villain, is the hero of his own story. So you have to understand where that person is coming from in order to play that person fully. And that goes for the people you meet in everyday exchanges. You have to understand where they're coming from and how they would like to be treated because you want to be treated the same way.

[50:11] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[50:12] Chris Sarandon: And also if I can you you you mentioned in your email to me any organizations that I'm oh yes, for sure. I just want to respect your time, but please that's okay.

[50:25] Chris Sarandon: No, because it goes back to your initial premise for the show, and that is these are almost all are organizations that deal with people who can help themselves by a boost from someone else. There's an organization called Finca, which provides microfinancing for mostly women all over the world to start their own businesses.

[50:39] Chris Sarandon: Wow.

[50:39] Chris Sarandon: There's an organization called Heifer, which buys animals for people to start. For instance, if you're buying a cow for somebody, they'll be able to start selling their milk, which will enable them to help support their family, or a sheep that will enable them to start a herd, which will enable them to make a living that way. Again, it's helping people help themselves. And also, of course, organizations like Doctors Without Borders, which I you know, I have no way of expressing just how much admiration I have for people who have a skill in which they could make a fortune in this country or any other first world country in the world, but who go to third world countries gratis and work to save people's lives. To me, they are the angels of the earth.

[51:49] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, yeah, those are the heroes, those are the people that should have the millions of followers on Instagram and the all the fans in recognition too, because it is like you're saying, just our society's built on that. And you mentioned teachers before, and you said your wife teaches, and my new wife, she was recently a teacher, but you know, it's sad and dismaying to see how they're treated a lot of ways in society, especially with the pandemic. And so to kind of embrace them and support organizations like you're saying is really important, and I'm glad you brought that up. It it's a way of spreading kindness in the world.

[52:23] Chris Sarandon: Yeah, and having those tangible things they do. I mean, my family has a nonprofit for kids with cancer that you know we talk a lot about on here, and we've always tried to do things, you know, hire a babysitter for the one year old that's getting chemo while their single mom is working at the diner and can't be with them. So have someone with them all day. Those tangible things, you know?

[52:44] Chris Sarandon: Yeah, yeah.

[52:44] Robert Peterpaul: And those are what you mentioned in yours. So everyone, please go check those out. Please check out Chris's amazing podcast. Watch Nightmare Before Christmas this time of year and stay on the lookout for everything you have coming up. Thank you. That's cooking by heart on Chris Sarandon.com.

[52:59] Chris Sarandon: Cooking by heart. You can go to all the platforms, also not only audio podcast, but also on YouTube as well.

[53:05] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, perfect. And I'm gonna I'll drop all those links in the show notes. So as you guys are listening right now, you can go to more information. You can find the links pretty easily and hear a little bit more about Chris. And I just want to thank you for being you and such an awesome role model in our industry because we need more people like you that are not only lauded and successful, but good people at the same time. So I appreciate you.

[53:24] Chris Sarandon: There are plenty of us out there. Don't despair.

[53:27] Robert Peterpaul: No, I won't. Listen, we've had a lot on here and you're now. Listen up, don't despair everybody. You can rewind that over and over again if you need to. But thank you so much. This was wonderful.

[53:39] Chris Sarandon: And thank you, Robert.

[53:40] Robert Peterpaul: All right, buddy. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day.

[53:43] Chris Sarandon: Thank you. Bye-bye.

[53:44] Robert Peterpaul: Bye.

[53:50] Robert Peterpaul: And now it's time for your kindness tip of the week. That was so much fun talking to Chris. And now I am gonna have even more fun. Well, equal amounts of fun. Well, I mean more fun because it's my wife with the love of my life. Please welcome back to the show the incredible Christmasy Cassie Peterpaul, not Carol anymore.

[54:17] Cassie Peterpaul: Nope. Not a Christmas Carol anymore.

[54:19] Robert Peterpaul: Well, you still are at heart. You're my little Christmas Carol.

[54:23] Cassie Peterpaul: Hello, listeners. Speaking of Christmas Carol, Nightmare Before Christmas, also a great Christmas movie. We talked about it a lot today. We're gonna go watch it, hopefully after this.

[54:33] Cassie Peterpaul: Yes, you introduced it to me. I had never seen it.

[54:35] Robert Peterpaul: She hadn't, which is wild.

[54:36] Cassie Peterpaul: Yeah. It's got Katherine O'Hara too, if you love her from Schitt's Creek. Such an amazing cast of voice artists. Anyway, I recommend watching that this holiday season. Cassie is here to deliver another wonderful special kindness tip just for you. So let's listen up because I don't even know what she's gonna say.

[54:51] Cassie Peterpaul: Yeah.

[54:55] Robert Peterpaul: As is normal.

[54:57] Cassie Peterpaul: Yeah, it's a surprise. She prepares them and I get it. I get to relax. But if you hear any noises in the background, those are our new kittens, by the way, which I know I've talked about on here. They are currently playing and running around. So that's what that is. So the jingle bells are them playing with their toys.

[55:14] Cassie Peterpaul: It could be Santa on the roof.

[55:15] Robert Peterpaul: Okay.

[55:16] Cassie Peterpaul: So as the holiday season approaches, or we're in the throes of it now, or really wherever you whatever point of the year you're listening to, I find Walt Whitman's quote that Ted Lasso adopted, of course. Be curious, not judgmental, to be a very good motto. I used to have a poster hanging in my classroom with it, and it was actually more for me than the students, I think. They always stared at it because it was the only thing on this one wall. But as you encounter family, friends, strangers, anyone, this holiday season or again wherever you are in the year, approach their thoughts and their journeys with curiosity.

[56:06] Cassie Peterpaul: Oh my gosh, there they go. Um jingle bells. Not judgment. And it's easier said than done. But I like the simplicity of the phrase because it's an easy reminder for yourself. So if somebody's undergoing a change of identity, a changing career, they're exploring new things, they're thinking about moving anything, instead of saying, why are you doing that, or I guess you can approach it that way, say, oh, what brought you to that decision? What are the things that you're doing to make this possible? How can I support you maybe if you're ready to do that? And just asking them questions like that instead of forming a judgment right away is I think the easiest way to open up your mind and to really understand other people's journeys.

[56:57] Robert Peterpaul: I love that.

[56:58] Cassie Peterpaul: I think add the little like stocking the little curve to the period. So instead of making a statement, ask a question.

[57:05] Robert Peterpaul: Yes.

[57:05] Cassie Peterpaul: You know, be filled with the wonder of the season and be curious about people. And I think being curious, oh, one of our cats just pokes through this little vest that's on a chair that they're not supposed to be on, but they love it, it's their favorite place, and that was pretty cute. But yes, I do think asking questions is something we're lacking in society because nobody wants to listen to each other, they just want to shout their statements. So be someone who listens for somebody else, and that might get you a little farther, you know.

[57:33] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, and I'm thinking like I am so quick to put my own opinion, I think. Like if somebody is newly vegetarian, I could say, oh, I could never give up steak. But like instead, I can train myself to say, oh, what brought you to that decision? How is it going? Before putting my own stamp on the situation.

[57:56] Cassie Peterpaul: Yes, and I think people are more sensitive than we sometimes realize. And so when we make these offhanded comments, which we might just think are funny self-deprecating statements, like I could never do that. Right. They actually might take offense and think, oh, maybe I'm doing something wrong. So it is important to share who you are, but I think you have to balance that out with actually hearing people out and being curious. And I think staying curious is the way to stay creative, successful, whatever that means, and ultimately have a much more interesting life.

[58:28] Robert Peterpaul: Agreed.

[58:28] Cassie Peterpaul: So I love that. I think that's the perfect kindness tip to take with us into 2023. Unfortunately, this is the last time we will be talking to you in 2022, I think, with our cats that are playing.

[58:40] Robert Peterpaul: You never know, maybe we'll pop up in another episode.

[58:43] Cassie Peterpaul: But as the season really gets busy, I think we're gonna take a little break and come back. So I want to thank you all for tuning in as always. Again, I am so grateful for each and every one of you. I wish you peace, joy, and happiness, as Dolly Parton says in I Will Always Love You or Sings. And I just want the best for you all as we go into this new year, this fresh start, and kind of keep that curious attitude.

[59:11] Robert Peterpaul: So thank you, Cassie. I'm grateful for you too.

[59:14] Cassie Peterpaul: I'm grateful for you.

[59:16] Robert Peterpaul: My new wife, which is wild. It'll be our first year as a new wife.

[59:19] Cassie Peterpaul: Sounds like you have an old wife.

[59:20] Robert Peterpaul: I know. I keep saying new wife, and I wonder in the back of my head, people are thinking, new wife, was he married before? I just don't know how else to describe newly my newly wed.

[59:29] Cassie Peterpaul: Yes. My new woman.

[59:30] Robert Peterpaul: No. Oh, no, that sounds bad. It's been nine minutes.

[59:33] Cassie Peterpaul: Okay, it's okay. We're gonna figure that out.

[59:34] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Anyway in 2023. As we figured that out. If you have any suggestions, honestly, get at us on Instagram. At Art of Kindness Pod at Robert Peterpaul. I think Cass is private, but you could probably sleep her down if you wanted to on there. And anyway, thank you. Let's land this plane.

[59:52] Cassie Peterpaul: Let's land Santa Slay.

[59:53] Robert Peterpaul: Ho ho ho. Happy everything to everybody out there. Enjoy your celebrations. Take in that time with your loved ones. And I think being curious, perfect time to start doing that is at the holiday party.

[1:00:06] Cassie Peterpaul: Yeah.

[1:00:06] Robert Peterpaul: Go in there if you know who you're gonna see. Write down some questions for each person, maybe just have them in the back of your head. And it could be a much more interesting and informative time.

[1:00:18] Cassie Peterpaul: Agreed.

[1:00:19] Robert Peterpaul: All right. And as always.

[1:00:22] Cassie Peterpaul: And as always, we will end this episode, the final episode of 2022, by saying everything.

[1:00:30] Robert Peterpaul: Until next time, please remember everything is gonna be a okay.

[1:00:36] Cassie Peterpaul: Bye.

[1:00:37] Robert Peterpaul: Love you all.

[1:00:38] Cassie Peterpaul: Nailed it.

[1:00:39] Robert Peterpaul: Woo!