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[0:00] Tim Jackson: Hi, I'm Tim Jackson and you are listening to The Art of Kindness.

[0:09] Robert Peterpaul: Hello beautiful people. Welcome to The Art of Kindness where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the universe a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul and I'm so glad you're here. Hello friends. Thank you for tuning back in during what I would call the biggest week on Broadway. It's Tony's week and we are so lucky to be speaking with a Tony Award nominated director who happens to have created one of my favorite shows this season. I cannot say enough kind words about this person. We dive deep into what it takes to be a kind leader on Broadway, on the West End, just in your own daily life and I truly enjoyed my conversation with the terrific Tim Jackson.

[1:17] Robert Peterpaul: Tim Jackson is a Tony Award nominated director and choreographer whose work spans stage and screen including productions in the West End, off Broadway and on Broadway. That's right, he's currently as beloved as a slice of red velvet this season for a work he developed, directed and choreographed called Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York.

[1:58] Robert Peterpaul: If this show were a cake, the batter would be humanity and the icing would just be the beautiful music and moments that it creates. I cannot say enough kind words about this show and I hope you get to go see it friend. If not, please go back and listen to our interview with one of the stars, Christiani Pitts, who is just the most wonderful person and also nominated this season. You can find some behind the scenes from that conversation, this conversation and so many more on Instagram at Rob Peterpaul and at Art of Kindness Pod. Oh, oh, I see a spider. There's a spider in the studio. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go kindly take care of the spider situation. I hope you enjoyed this episode friend and I wish you a wonderful Tony's week. What are you doing? Are you having a watch party? Call up a friend, watch with somebody, it's more fun that way. Now without further ado, here's the terrific Tim Jackson.

[3:00] Tim Jackson: How are you doing? I'm so glad to finally meet you.

[3:09] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, likewise. It's lovely to meet you.

[3:10] Tim Jackson: Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Just got back from the States just today.

[3:16] Robert Peterpaul: Oh my gosh, you had a whirlwind trip.

[3:16] Tim Jackson: Yes, yeah. So I flew, I went in yesterday literally for the lunchtime Tony nominee thing and then flew last night and then I came back and did a day of rehearsals for Something Rotten and now I'm here.

[3:26] Robert Peterpaul: Gosh, well, that's not rotten to be busy, but will you do that next week then for the Tony's?

[3:32] Tim Jackson: Yeah, yeah, I'm flying Thursday evening and then Friday we've got a rehearsal so yeah, it's exciting.

[3:37] Robert Peterpaul: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here today and congratulations on all the well-deserved fanfare for Two Strangers.

[3:42] Tim Jackson: No, it's exciting to be here.

[3:48] Robert Peterpaul: I feel as though I need to start by asking you Tim, I was going to end this way, but how are you kind to yourself in these times when you're flying all over the world and doing so much?

[4:01] Tim Jackson: Oh, I think I just make sure that I'm patient with myself and don't have unrealistic expectations of what I can and what I can't do, I guess. But I don't find it, I haven't been finding it hard. It's been really exciting and there's been lots of travel but I've loved being in New York for all this Tony's Wonderful Madness and I'm in rehearsals for Something Rotten at the moment and that's just been such a joy and so either way I'm going, I'm looking forward to where I'm going to get to and I'm excited to get there so I don't have to be too kind to myself because my life feels pretty blessed at the moment, if I'm honest.

[4:33] Robert Peterpaul: I love that, I love that perspective. I feel as though you may have the Energizer Bunny blood that I have.

[4:37] Tim Jackson: Yes, I think there's a bit of that, yeah.

[4:42] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's like it feeds you to keep going. Is this the Something Rotten with Marisha Wallace?

[4:48] Tim Jackson: It is, yes.

[4:48] Robert Peterpaul: I love Marisha, she's so talented.

[4:52] Tim Jackson: Oh, she's so wonderful, I'm so glad she's doing it.

[4:52] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, we did a concert version of it last year in the West End and she was in that too and it was just wonderful. So yeah, it's the first time Something Rotten's going to be in the UK.

[5:03] Tim Jackson: What?

[5:03] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it never happened so weirdly we're sort of thinking that it's a new musical even though it's been written for such a long time but yeah, I'm having an absolute blast, it's so fun.

[5:13] Tim Jackson: Oh, I love that. I remember when it first came to New York and I was seeing the ads everywhere, you know, it was saying worst show ever, this is gonna suck and they did like a reverse ad campaign and no one knew what it was. It was so good.

[5:21] Tim Jackson: Yeah, it's so smart. I can't wait to see what you do.

[5:26] Tim Jackson: Yeah, it's lovely, it's a really fun show and actually when I watched it, I watched it on Broadway, I was sat in rush seats and I remember thinking, oh my god, imagine if one day I got to do this. So the fact that it's happening is bananas to me, I feel so lucky. So yeah, it's so exciting.

[5:43] Robert Peterpaul: Banana cream pie cake, we gotta get the cake because it's also wonderful. Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York. I cannot say enough lovely, sweet, delicious things about this show. I know I'm not alone here but I think what I truly admire most, Tim, is the way you've kind of infused kindness into the Tony's conversation. I've listened to a lot of interviews with you and whether you know it or not, you're always talking about how kind everybody you work with is and I think that's probably part of the magic to this show because you can see that as an audience member. But I just wonder, to set context, what is your definition of kindness and how do you think it's evolved over the years?

[6:20] Tim Jackson: I guess in my head, being kind is to be trying to make someone else's life better in some way, shape or form. And I think trying to do that without trying to get something back or trying to gain from it but just in a really straightforward way, trying to see someone where they are and trying to improve their life in some capacity. And I guess maybe that would be my evolution with it is that maybe the younger version of me would have been being kind to someone but also hoping that they might like me or hoping that it might make things better between us or something. And now I feel like it doesn't matter how someone else is going to respond to me. I should still be trying to be kind to someone else at all points. And I guess that's the, if there is an evolution, I guess that would probably be it.

[7:14] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Now, thanks for bringing it back to that part of the question. I can totally relate to that. And the joke is kind of that it does give back to you. I mean, there's science behind kindness is contagious, kindness coming back to the receiver. So I love that answer. I wonder, in regards to Two Strangers and looking at that journey, because you've been with the show for quite some time, is there, and I'm sure there were a lot, but if you want to take a second to reflect, is there an act of kindness that you feel like this production wouldn't have happened without?

[7:42] Tim Jackson: I think there was an act of kindness for me and in the openness from our producers and from the writers to have me helm the show. I think that certainly felt kind. I came on board as a dramaturg and when I came on board, they were very straightforward with me. The producers were very straightforward that they would probably look for someone who'd done more directing than I had at the time. But I just loved the material. I fell in love with the material so quickly. And I think I read about 10 pages and I was like, oh my gosh, I called the producers. I was like, please let me do this. I love it so much. And then I was just in it and so enthused by it. And I did three workshops and by the third, halfway through the third workshop, they were like, we think you're the right person to do that.

And I think it involves a certain degree of kindness to be open and to see the potential in someone and sort of be open and available to the possibility of someone exceeding your expectations, I guess. And all the way through, I felt so supported by that producer, Tim Johansson, and by Tommy, who was one of our early producers on the show, and by the writers. I mean, they've all just been the best. It's always been a joy. It doesn't feel like work.

[9:05] Robert Peterpaul: No, I think that makes the best work. It makes it a joy to watch. That's the formula. And I think when you lead with the love, it's like they're seeing the love you have for the piece and they're leading with that kindness to give you the shot, but it's like instead of leading with the fear. And I think that's a great example of that. I wonder, and I'm guessing the answer is yes, but as a leader, was kindness something you thought about going into this big Broadway process? I mean, I know it started on the West End, but yeah, how did you think about kindness as a leader, Tim?

[9:34] Tim Jackson: I think I think about it all the time. I think if someone were to describe my rehearsal process or my room as anything, I think the thing I would want most of all would put them to say is a kind or a safe space or somewhere where they can, where people can feel they can do their best work. It means like everything to me, because I feel like I'm not interested in anyone not having a good day. Like I think it takes a lot to make theatre. I'm not playing a tiny violin. We all absolutely love it. I feel so lucky that it's my job. But like you're asking people to be vulnerable and to show something that's the most precious of them, whether they're an actor or a musician or a director or a choreographer, whatever, everyone is offering something of themselves.

So if they can't feel safe and protected in that space, then like I think we have no hope in people being their most brilliant self unless they feel like they're being treated kindly. So I really care about it. And I'm very, it's one of the first and foremost things I think about when assembling a team or assembling a cast. Like I obviously want people to be brilliantly talented, but I above all want them to be kind because I know for sure, I just know in my heart of hearts that if people are kind to each other, they will make the best work. The joy and love and heart will find its way into the work, onto the stage, into the auditorium, and those people will walk out into the world and they will feel that like the infection from something that has happened months ago in a casting room or in a first meeting with the designer. All right. Do you know what I mean? It all permeates through everything. If you've got lovely people, you're going to make lovely work. I really believe in it.

[11:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. That's so beautiful. That was also beautiful. I mean, you said, I think you said, I have no interest in someone having anything other than a great day, which is just such a good quote that I'm going to write a tattoo on my forehead. And I felt that. I mean, I had the privilege of.

[12:04] Tim Jackson: The importance of this which… Yeah, they are the most fantastic people. And they genuinely do really care about each other. And that's made my job so joyful. And it's made my job easier. It's that there's just like an unadulterated love that is happening, not just between Sam and Christiani, but with the amazing standbys as well. There's a real affection in the building. And I think it comes from the writing at its genesis, is that they've written a show, Kit and Jim, who are just the best people ever, have written this show that's full of heart and humanity. And so the people who are going to connect most of that are people who have a capacity and an empathy and an openness. And so that those people who walk into an audition room and they can bring those parts to life in the way that these six people do, I think they just have to have kindness within them and they have to have a generosity of spirit.

And so it's a lovely, it's a lovely cohesion between those people because they, yeah, they've all sort of fallen in love with each other. And I get so excited to go backstage as well. Like whenever I'm back there and there's, you hear laughter and people being sweet with each other and thoughtful. And yeah, it's an amazing space, I must say. It really is.

[12:24] Robert Peterpaul: And I think you're so correct in that it does hinge on the story, which runs on these two strangers, Sam Tutty and our friend Christiani Pitts. So Christiani said that in real life, and I know you've talked about this a bit, she's actually more like Sam's character and vice versa. And as an actor, I'm always interested in that contrast, right? I think playing the opposite is more interesting. I wonder from your POV, can you speak to casting actors to almost play the opposite on paper and how it's sort of how you see it makes for a more textured arc?

[13:30] Tim Jackson: Yeah, well, do you know what? It's so interesting, because I've heard both Sam and Christiani say that. And I think they contain multitudes. And actually, I think that they, they both have both aspects of what the characters need to be, which is why I specifically really wanted them to play the roles. So yes, I think Christiani is really sunshiny and like glorious and fun. And, and that might not be how Robin registers at the top of the show, and she's maybe a little more guarded. But actually, I wanted to make sure that we were casting the person who could realize the character at the end of the show. And so I and I think that's the same with Sam, like Sam can have a Sam is very wise and grounded and, and can be very centered, even though the Dougal of it all can feel like fireworks and cheeky and puppyish.

So I think, so I think they have it in them. But I think we all have it. We all contain multitudes, don't we? And so I guess it's my job is to go fishing for those things and, and be a sort of reflector to those people and be like, well, you're also this and you're also that. I feel like the more multi-dimensional the characters are, the better. But I'm sure that everyone has a, that there are parts that we wish sit easier within people. And I don't think I tend to cast tight, but I just, I tend to be just sniffing out an essence, I guess, or a capacity to, to see something positive within the character.

[15:24] Robert Peterpaul: I'll wait for your cologne line to come out then.

[15:28] Tim Jackson: No, I mean, you said, you said going fishing, which reminded me to it's like, you're not putting a hat on the hat. It's like, I'd rather see a fisherman that doesn't have the yellow jacket and the beard. It's like, you want to watch someone that you, you know, the story is telling that. And so to have these two that maybe present differently and then by the end can go there, I think it's just brilliant. They've also spoken about the fact that you're so open to conversations and questions throughout the process. Is that kind of your favorite way to collaborate with everybody to talk things out? Are you sort of malleable to people's needs?

[16:07] Tim Jackson: Oh my gosh, completely. Yeah. I think it's my, it's my job to provoke excellence in others. You know, like it's like, it's, I can't force anything on someone else. They have to find it for themselves and want it for themselves. And then it's only ever going to be a million times better than if it was my idea, if it was their idea and that they found it from their truth. And that's actors or it's designers or it's anyone really. Like you, I think, as I guess it's that I, that's how I want to approach directing anyway. It's just, just sort of be like, anything's possible. And if we all throw it, then there's no bad idea. And like, just to, to recognize, I mean, the people I'm working with on this show are just so extraordinarily brilliant. And so I, yeah, I guess anyone involved is just more like, well, what, what else? What more? And just to test spark communication and start the spark conversation and see what can happen.

[17:55] Robert Peterpaul: I love that. I do think in a way, excellence in the realm you're working in, though, isn't always immune to the things that come with the pressure, especially like a Tony season. And this show, again, so well-deserved and I'm so excited for you all. I feel as though, you're welcome. It's probably hard in the cases where you see an actor being unkind to themselves and not saying this happened with your process, but as a director, as I know, you've coached actors and worked in so many capacities, which gives you that brilliant multi-perspective when you feel like someone's getting in their own way or being unkind as an artist. What's your go-to direction or piece of advice if you have one?

[18:34] Tim Jackson: I'm always just saying, think of the other person, like think of whoever else is in this circumstance with you. If it's another actor on stage, I'm like, just think about doing it for them and elevating that person. I said it to Sam and Christiani on opening and on their first preview, and I hope they're carrying this through, through this like crazy Tony season, which is just like, if you, it's really easy to become so focused on how you can become better. And I think if you can think, how can I make this show better for this other person? And how can I facilitate them to be the best that they can be? I think that's where things level up. And I think it's the same for characters, right? Like I think Sam singing about to go in, in act two of the show, he could sing that song, thinking of just about himself and how sorry he feels for himself, that he's had this, like, this very surprise.

It's no spoilers. Or he could, or the character could be thinking, God, I don't want my mum to feel worried about me being in this other country and far away and worried. So I'm going to be brave for that person. And I think that's where it gets, that's where I find the yummy place because we're all being brave all the time, right? Like I, the thing I want to see on stage always is characters being, showing courage. And because I think that's the most human thing ever, is to try and make, make things better for other people by like, putting up a veil or, or just being brave. And so I think that's, that's what I'm always looking for. And so I think that's the, that's the way to exercise kindness.

For, for our way to exercise kindness practice, I think, is to think, well, how, how can I do this for someone else? And then I don't have to be constantly judging what I'm doing and what and how I could be better.

[19:21] Robert Peterpaul: Tim, take my microphone, take my headphones. I feel like you need to host this podcast. I love that. That was so, that was brilliant. And I think the way you put that, putting on a face for others and, and equating that with being brave is, is super cool. And that's certainly true in the show, as well as this message of the ability to be changed and to change even a complete stranger. It makes me wonder whether you were in New York City or even now, have you had any encounters yourself with strangers that you feel like left you changed for the better?

[19:54] Tim Jackson: I've had so many encounters with strangers. And like, I feel like that's the privilege of working in theatre and working in an environment where I just move from different, like projects all the time is I, I will meet in any job, I will always meet a handful of people who will have some sort of special impact on my life. And some of those people are, like, I met a fan from, a super fan of the show the other day. And like, she is this amazing person called Savannah. And they just were like, so, just to see the excitement for the show is so, it was so invigorating for me and so intoxicating. And I, it made me feel really proud and it made me look at the show through fresh eyes. And that's just one of the many strangers that I've sort of met along the way.

And yeah, I feel like the, the show is amazingly, like introducing people to each other. And like people meet at stage door, and then they become friends, or they, they link up on socials and stuff. And I, and I think I've had that a bit, like, I've bumped into people outside the theatre who've been, who've been talking, like, talking about the show or talking about going to see it. And I, and I've just, I've, it's, the show has made me more open to spark conversation with strangers. And just try and like, look people in the eye and like, make connections as much as possible. Because I think we spend our time like, so consumed by things outside of what our immediate world is, which is why, what drew me to Two Strangers actually, is I was just like, Oh God, we need this. It's just two people who are just connecting for, for 48 hours.

[21:25] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. And there's elements of course, with the phone, there's no spoiler alerts with phones, but it navigates that so well that like for a show with just two people, there's rarely, you know, the emphasis on someone else that's not on the stage. I mean, there's these other characters, but that's so hard to navigate without having them constantly like singing into their phone or whatever it is. And it's done so beautifully to the point where, like you said, as an audience member, you are looking to the person next to you, you're making sure everybody's okay. I felt like because I did get up, not in the middle of the show, but right before to go to the bathroom, people weren't like, necessarily, you know, they don't love when someone gets up to go to the bathroom.

By the end of the show, it was like, Hey, everyone's kind of smiling. And yeah, it is changing people. And I'm always wondering with folks from coming from the UK, do you see that famous difference between like UK and US audiences? Is that something you experience?

[22:17] Tim Jackson: I am experiencing it in like a really exciting way. I feel like there's just this openness to musicals and this excitement that feels really genuine and really, it's super buzzy and super fizzy to walk into that theatre at the moment. And there's this essence and this vibration in the air that people feel like something exciting and brilliant is going to happen. So there's an openness to receive the work on that level. And that can happen in the UK as well. I'm not saying that we're all Grinches by any means, but I do think there's this, there's this electricity around Broadway where people are like up for it. And from the very first jokes in the show that are delivered so...

[23:07] Tim Jackson: Excellently by Simon Cristiani. Nonetheless, the audience is in the room and on side, and they're like, let's lift this musical up. And I feel really lifted up by those audiences, by the Broadway community. I've met so many people already who have just welcomed me with open arms and being kind, I guess.

[23:32] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I love to hear that. And I mean, just hearing, even hearing you now talking about the show and thinking about my next note that I have here, I just got to say, the way you navigated this direction is just utterly brilliant. I mean, you have two people, you have one set, which we need to hold space for the suitcase set. That was the first thing I wrote down. Sutra Gilmore? Is that the person? Okay. I don't even know. Chef's Kiss, genuine. I mean, on paper, I'm guessing that this show, it could almost read like a film, right? You're like, oh, this is going to need a big budget. They're here, they're there, they're running across the city. Can you share, I guess, first of all, how you came together and funneled it down into this concept that just works so seamlessly?

[24:12] Tim Jackson: Well, she is the most incredible person and the most incredible artist and just the best. And we worked together on Merrily We Roll Along a couple of years ago. Well, actually, we've been doing it for 13 years together, but it ended up on Broadway. And I was desperate for her to do Two Strangers, and I was so pleased that she did. And we actually, the way we came to the set, we had three whole, like proper long meetings where we didn't come to the design yet. We were just talking about what the show meant to us and what parts that were connecting for us. And it was all about vibe rather than being like, what is it that has to happen? Yes, there were so many things that did need to happen. We needed a set that pushed the actors downstage center as much as possible so the comedy would land.

And we both knew that we wanted a double turntable because we wanted the show to move and feel fluid and liquid and forever moving. But we didn't know what they, we had to find it. We had to find what their language was for the piece. I knew I wanted Sutra to do it because she is the absolute master of economy mixed with elegance and abstraction, like this way of making something that feels like an installation piece of art. That feels so subtle and nuanced and sort of control. I can't say enough about her. I think she's the absolute bee's knees. And I think what we came to it because we were talking about luggage and that characters feeling like left luggage or feeling left behind. And also we were talking a lot about New York and how like that's a city built of immigrants who brought their luggage to this place.

And luggage itself is so like it's imbued with so many feelings. Luggage can be a symbol of things that you're taking away and you're leaving somewhere or you're arriving somewhere or like an airport in itself is that like this amazing liminal space where you could be stood next to someone who's the most excited they've ever been in their life because they're about to go on an epic journey. But then you could be stood next to someone who's leaving someone they love and going away. And so that it's like a melting pot of all these different emotions, which is so it just served us in such a brilliant way to sort of set it sort of in a baggage reclaim area. But it just meant that we could have this box of tricks.

And we both are really passionate about a set being a playground for actors, because we want to celebrate. First and foremost, we both want to celebrate actors. And because that's what we go to. I well, I believe we go to theater to see humans being humans and and watching and communing. Amen. And I'm like sharing in watching someone express empathy and and express some human condition. And so as long as the set was something that could facilitate them going on this epic, wonderful journey and and celebrate New York, I guess, like New York is full of secrets and surprises, isn't it? It's like an airport. It's a melting pot.

[27:14] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, exactly. Like every time I turn a corner in New York, I'm like, oh, there's a secret. There's a surprise. And I feel like that's what this set delivers in the most amazing way is that it does. It's always doing something unexpected. And so you go in thinking it's going to be one thing and it's something else. And I think that's what the characters are. And that's what the play is like. People go in being like, oh, this is going to be a cute romcom show about two strangers. And then they come out being like, oh, wow, this is actually like full of twisted turns and it's an epic tale. And yeah, that's I love it. It's scrumptious.

[27:47] Tim Jackson: Yeah, I know. I wanted to get up there and climb on those suitcases. It looks like a literal jungle gym. And it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said to the reminder of seeing it's sort of very transitory and it's a reminder that a connection with a stranger is just that. And it can just exist in this one moment. Or maybe we'll get a Netflix spinoff with the two of them having adventures. I don't know. That would be fun, too. But there's such beauty in that. And it's also not lost on me that it sort of is literally a cake on a revolving cake stand in a way. I don't know.

[28:12] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's definitely that. I love how you choreographed around the jungle gym specifically and how you created so many moments with this one stationary piece. What was that process like? Like what came first, the chicken or the egg in the sense of, OK, we know this suitcase is going to open up into a bar. These two are going to be the subway seats. Is it like just very exploratory? How did you figure all that out?

[28:44] Tim Jackson: We actually we played around a lot. And I sort of I once once the concept of design came through, we then just talked about what then what was necessary for it. And then obviously you decide all these things and you get in the room. And once you're there, you're like, oh, we could use this in a completely different way. So I think that we were we had a really clear idea of what the most beautiful version of those stacks would be and what would facilitate the most interesting transitions. And then we we played around with it a bit and was we tried to be as flexible as possible. There was a lot of maths involved for me and my amazing associate director, Asma at Gabrielle Mackell. And we there was a lot of me with a model like slowly twisting around being like this is this and like Asma recording it being like this is the speed I want it to go.

And then it would speed up here and it needs to be on this degree angle for this to happen. And it got very, very nerdy. And that's how the choreography had to be. Is it like you wanted each person to be at exactly the right point, exactly the right time. And then hopefully no one notices it and they just go, oh, this is all seamless and lovely. But it's taken a lot of thought.

[29:49] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, my gosh. There's a moment where Sam just reaches out his hand and the suitcase is right there. It's like the timing is so satisfying. Oh, I'm sure it did. Well, over the course of time, is there a cut suitcase that you missed? Was there like a delightful surprise that you just couldn't get to work? I don't know how well she could have fit in there, but I'm curious.

[30:09] Tim Jackson: You know what we know? We actually we didn't we didn't cut. We we've this show has grown as we've grown. Like the ideas were there right from the beginning. But it's been enjoyable to sort of lean into the snow globe of it all. And so I guess I guess it hasn't it's got better, I think, and it's got richer. I don't think there's anything I've cut that I don't miss because I think it's always again for me, it's always about economy. Like what's the simplest, most clear way to tell the story? And I think we we got to a place that I felt really comfortable with. But in terms of adding, we we definitely added things. Honestly, I was so obsessive about snow. And I think my my collaborators probably what there were times where people would have been like, are you kidding?

And I did have people going, how many more times are you going to make it snow? But I just I really wanted to be super magical. And there turns out there are loads of different types of stage snow and there are loads of different ways, different ways to make it snow. And so just trying to make I just wanted to deliver on something really beautiful. And I and the snow, I thought was the best way to do that, because for me, like snow in New York is pretty magical. I know for New Yorkers, it's like, yeah, but it means it's all sludgy and gross. But it's iconic, you know. But as a Brit, like exactly as a Brit receiving New York through the movies, primarily like that, I felt like I needed to have that sort of cinematic like elegance and exactly the right amount of it. And I wanted it to fall exactly the right speed. And yeah, yeah. So we did lots of beautiful, lots of different trials to make that happen.

[31:54] Robert Peterpaul: Well, because it is in the wintertime and this, as you know, this surprise, this holiday season, the Christmas of it all, was it always set during that time? Because it does feel like the perfect time in the sense of, you know, you can feel like the loneliest person in the world during that season. So was it always Christmas?

[32:11] Tim Jackson: That's really smart. Yes. That was one of the big ingredients is the fact that it's a it's a potentially very lonely time. It was actually set for a while. The show was called The Season, and it was set on Christmas Day. The wedding was Christmas Day. And there was a early song, which didn't make it into this show, but it was about like, the idea of Christmas already. And for one character Dougal, that meant a really positive thing. And for the other character Robin, it was like, here comes another Christmas where I'm going to be away from the people I love. And yeah, and we ended up taking it away from Christmas Day itself because we realised that that's not really what the show was about. It was just a means to open that can of worms and sort of start that expression.

And but the essence of it still lingers in the air in terms of what it delivers is that thing of like, you can feel super cosy at Christmas or winter, or you can feel super isolated. And those characters both feel one way at the top of the show, and then perhaps feel differently at the other end of the show, which I think is what's exciting.

[33:36] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's like the chimney opens at just the right times, you know, you let Christmas in at the right time. And I don't think I'd seen a story where it is Christmas. And it celebrates that in a way that, you know, is that here's to the story, but it's not centre stage. You know, Christmas isn't the thing, which is hard to achieve. So I mean, that's that also deserves some kudos. I wonder throughout this process, from the suitcases to everything we've talked about navigating, is there an act of kindness you've had from somebody in the show, you know, it could be more recently that you feel like helped you maybe during a difficult day of tech?

[34:04] Tim Jackson: I mean, yes, like a million, there have been a million times where someone's been kind to me, I feel like I've already mentioned Asmaret, but Asmaret, my associate director, showed me limitless support and kindness and encouragement. And just sent was a very centering force during the whole process. And, and I think the cast, you know, like they, they have a Herculean amount to do in this show. And they are, well, it makes me feel emotional. But I'm, they, the way that they handle it all is just so wonderful, because they remain kind and open and flexible and

[34:41] Tim Jackson: Thoughtful and caring all the way through, whilst also carrying the weight of such an enormous show on their shoulders. What they're doing every night is staggering. They make it look so easy, but it's so crafted and so detailed. We've gone through the script with the finest tooth comb, and nothing is happening by accident. There's nothing that they just drop in. It's all sculpted so carefully, and yet for them to be delivering something on that level and still come in with a warmth and kindness and patience. I know that I have high expectations of people, just like I would expect people to have high expectations of me too. And they dug in again and again, and they're like, yes, let's keep going and really empowered me.

And they were like, let's do this. We trust you. You've got us. And that just, it made my life so easy. And I was intimidated coming to Broadway. And everyone was like, oh God, it's going to be scary. And I didn't find it scary. I had the nicest time. And every day I felt lucky. And I looked around the room and I had an amazing associate, an amazing team, amazing actors. I love the writers so much. And I was like, this feels easy in a nice way. Yeah. And that's a blessing. Yeah. So everyone was showing me kindness on literally a day-to-day basis. Everyone was showing me kindness.

[36:11] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I'm glad to hear that, Tim. And I feel like we are so blessed to have you and people from the UK on Broadway, because what y'all bring to us, whether it's on stage or films is, you know, unparalleled in a lot of ways. And just being there and seeing these two, Christiani and Sam, meet people after, and then be so excited still to walk outside and meet the strangers at the stage door. And then I saw a matinee have another show that night. It's not always like that. Again, it's like, sometimes you just have to go and do your job, which is OK, too, and then rest. But there is like something so special that you guys, that you have really fostered at the lead with everybody else. So it's wonderful to see.

[36:52] Tim Jackson: I think everyone has fostered it. It's been a collective endeavor, for sure.

[36:57] Robert Peterpaul: It's like the Who's at the end of the Grinch. You're all holding hands.

[36:59] Tim Jackson: Yes, it is. It's very cute.

[37:02] Robert Peterpaul: I do always want to try that roast beef. I don't know why. It's a cartoon, Tim. I have issues. Anyway, I'm going to throw out a surprise game. It's called the compliment game. And remember, because you participated in this for us before. Basically, I'm going to read a quote from someone that I will say is involved with the show we've been talking about, you know, to make it a little easier. And then you have to try and guess who said it. OK.

[37:12] Tim Jackson: OK.

[37:17] Robert Peterpaul: All right. I think you got this, but you can ask me questions and I'll try and help you. All right. OK. Do my best. And I do have a hint if you need it. OK, here we go. Never in my career have I left an audition with a greater desire to work with someone as I did leaving my first meeting with Tim Jackson. As brilliant as a creative as he is, it's his heart and attention to humanity that is something otherworldly. Tim brings so much heart and compassion to his work. It makes everyone in his orbit follow suit. Ask anyone who's worked with Tim and they will concur. One of my favorite things about this visionary is just how many things he's good at. He can, if he wanted to do everyone's job, but instead stays in his lane and leads with grace.

That would be incredibly difficult for the average person. But Tim makes it look so easy. There is no exaggeration when I say working with Tim Jackson has made me a better actor and a more empathetic human. I am so thankful and honored to be doing this work with him and to call him a friend.

[38:41] Tim Jackson: Oh my God. Just a little one. Well, it's so nice. It's a little compliment. It's hard to receive compliments, isn't it? I usually ask, how are you receiving compliments? That's usually my first question, but I got too excited. Wow. I guess we're finding out. That's so nice. It's really, really nice. Well, I would hazard a guess because I've heard some of these things before directly from Christiani, but I don't know whether it was Christiani.

[39:14] Robert Peterpaul: Ding, ding, ding! This is the Broadway's Tony nominated Tim Jackson. That's how I refer to him, is what she gave me as the hint. Christiani, you said it perfectly, such a sunshiny, sparkly, beautifully talented person. What she just said is just an absolute example of how generous and kind and thoughtful. For her to have taken time to say that, it's really amazing. I felt exactly the same when she walked into that audition room. I was just like, oh, something electric is happening here. And it's because I could sense her warmth. And I was like, I know I will be able to do my job the best that I can do because she is offering me something so special and kind and authentic. I mean, she's like, she's an amazing mother.

And I think she mothers everyone to a certain extent, but in the best possible way, you know? She's always looking out for everyone else and trying to make everyone else happy. And she's so smart. And I could just go on and on about her. But I feel like, yeah, there was something in the room that day in that audition that felt really magical. And I know that Sam felt it too. And it was so lovely that he was there for final auditions because it was just like, there's alchemy that was like, we're gonna have a lovely time together. But the only reason I know that she, I thought it was her that might have said that is because she is also really a great communicator. And she has very kindly said some of those things to, maybe not all of those things, but like, has said some of those things to me directly, which I'm really appreciative of.

Because I think sometimes it's easy to forget to tell the people that you admire the most or that you care about, or that sometimes it's difficult to express that to someone directly, isn't it? And she's very good at that. She's very good at letting you know that you're appreciated. And as I said earlier, that's what has buoyed me through the process. And the writers, I know that they feel so grateful to all of the cast and everyone involved that people have shown them that they love their work. And yeah, it's a, we all need oxygen, don't we, in order to survive. And I think Christiane is a big old canister, that's for sure.

[41:47] Robert Peterpaul: You know, kindness is oxygen. I love that, that analogy. And I do feel like there's something we talk about a bunch on here, which is that when you get to a certain point, sometimes in these high profile settings, whatever you want to call it, that can be the first thing to go out the window. It's like we stop when something goes wrong, but we don't always stop to say, okay, this, this new talent did this, or this Tony nominee, like, I really admire you, whatever it is. And so it's beautiful to have a space where that is happening. Because that's, I mean, that's really what it's all about, is like that just like reveling in the goodness together. So I'd love to see that you guys do that for each other. And I'm sure you're so excited to reunite at the Tonys. I mean, how are you feeling? It's so close.

[42:29] Tim Jackson: It feels so exciting, and so fun. And like, the fact that we got the eight nods, and so lots of people have been recognized for their work. I think that feels really great. And it was a lovely surprise to be nominated. And I feel, I feel so chuffed. But I just, I think it's just this thing of being part of it. That's the most exciting thing is just to feel part of this crazy thing that I used to watch on YouTube. And I used to watch the Tony Awards and watch the clips with my friends and be like, imagine if one day, so the fact that this is all happening is completely bananas. I'm really trying to lean into that and be like, revel in this, this is an extraordinary thing to be happening. And you're very fortunate and have fun rather than find it a stressful thing or an intimidating thing.

Just be like, yeah, it is, this is a real privilege and a pleasure. And I get to hang out with all these cool people who I really admire, and celebrate it with my friends. Like, what's, what's better than that?

[43:34] Robert Peterpaul: That's the magic. I mean, you've all won. I don't, I just, I don't even know how, like, Lost Boys and Two Strangers can be in the same, like, everything is so differently done in a beautiful way that it's like, I know that sounds so cheesy to say that you've all won.

[43:49] Tim Jackson: No, I feel like that. I totally feel like that. Yeah. And if we hadn't been nominated, I still would have felt incredibly proud that we were even in the running because to be on Broadway is wild. Absolutely wild. We started this little show in like, tiny, like tiny underground studio theatres, which had like 30 people in the audience paying like a couple of pounds to watch a workshop. And now we're on Broadway. It's just, it's completely nuts that this is happening. So anything that's happening is all just, just another layer of blessing, I guess.

[44:25] Robert Peterpaul: Of cake? No, a blessing.

[44:27] Tim Jackson: Sorry, not to bring it back. I'm so cheesy. But I love this show so much. And I'm so blessed that I get to share some time with you, Tim. And I'd be very grateful if we could end our time by you just sharing a tangible kindness tip. So something you would like everybody out there listening right now to do on their own corner of New York City or the world to try and make it a little bit brighter.

[44:48] Tim Jackson: I think in the most basic terms, I would just say, give everyone you meet the benefit of the doubt of not knowing what is happening in their day at that time. So if you could just treat them, treat people as equally as possible. That's, I mean, easier said than done, I'm sure. But that's what I try and do. Like we meet, meet someone where they are, and whatever, whatever that is that day for them. I think that's a, that's a nice way to go about life.

[45:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, it's like grab the cake someone's presenting you and walk with them.

[45:24] Tim Jackson: Could be a little, it could be the Matilda cake, which Matilda, the cake in that movie, it's my dream to eat that.

[45:29] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. You never know what someone else needs to you. So if you, yeah, that's, I think that's an easy way. And sometimes that's just smiling at someone, isn't it?

[45:38] Tim Jackson: True.

[45:39] Robert Peterpaul: Well, thank you so much, Tim, for the art you've given the world for giving us this story. And these times it's, I can't even stress how important it is to go see the show and get the powerful reminder of humanity and how we're all better together. So I wish you the best of luck. And I'm so glad I got to spend time with you today.

[45:57] Tim Jackson: Yeah, it's been so nice to chat. Thank you.

[45:59] Robert Peterpaul: Yay.

[46:01] Robert Peterpaul: Until next time, remember, everything is going to be A-OK.