This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to The Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big, spinning planet in the universe a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:30] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, friends. I am so thrilled to be back with you on the mic after battling a pretty nasty case of the flu. I still have it a little bit, but never fear. I was able to record today's conversation. Now, it was not the flu's fault, but this conversation was infected by a digital bug, a virus, some may say, and for the first time ever, we're actually missing part of the interview. We lost our guest's audio with about 10 minutes to go, and they were 10 great minutes. Our conversation did continue. We played the compliment game. We had an amazing compliment from our previous guest, Helen J. Shen. Go listen to that episode if you have not already. However, I came back onto our platform to see that it did not record.

It just simply didn't record. So it's me talking to myself, which I can play if you want to hear. You know, my wife hears it all the time through the door of my office. I'm often talking to myself, trying to talk to myself kinder. That's a journey. But anyway, I just had to share that because if it seems like the conversation ends a little abruptly, that's why. Clint was very generous with his time, and he actually stayed on later than he had to. But unfortunately, it just didn't record, and I'm bummed about it. Alas, the conversation is still amazing, because today, like I said, we have Clint Ramos. Clint Ramos is a Tony Award-winning costume designer, set designer, producer, and producing creative director of Encores! at New York City Center.

With over 250 productions to his name, including Eclipsed, Sunday in the Park with George, Maybe Happy Ending, just to name a few I loved, Once on this Island, Clint's work has helped redefine what leadership, collaboration, and care can look like in the theater and beyond. And also on screen in films like Respect, starring Jennifer Hudson. Okay, sorry, I'm going to rein it in. In this episode, we explore how his upbringing in the Philippines, his commitment to social justice, and his belief in kindness as a practice, not just a performance, have shaped both his artistry and leadership. I'm already going to need to have Clint back, and not just because, you know, our episode stopped recording toward the end, but because there were just so many winding avenues to go down with this really insanely creative soul.

Speaking of creative souls, make sure to tune into our social media pages to see some creative posts. I am so grateful for this conversation and grateful you're tuning in. Please join us in our little kindness community on social media at Art of Kindness Pod and at Rob Peterpaul. I'd also love if you could do the act of kindness of sharing this show with a friend and spread the kindness all around. Now, without further ado, please enjoy our conversation with the kind Clint Ramos.

[3:43] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, Clint. How are you?

[3:50] Clint Ramos: Hi, how are you?

[3:52] Clint Ramos: I am so good. I am such an admirer of your incredible body of work. I'm not going to lie. It did paralyze me a little bit when I was doing research because, listen, we have costume designer, we have set designer, we have producer, we have father. I mean, you wear so many hats, so it was kind of scary to know where to start.

[4:06] Clint Ramos: Yeah, I do. Life is short.

[4:08] Clint Ramos: You know what? I agree. Have dessert first. Do everything you can in this pretty wild world. But what I appreciate most about you is that you really do seem to lead with kindness and love. So just thank you for being here. I'm thrilled to unpack that with you today.

[4:22] Clint Ramos: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I know no other way, but, you know, and humor and humor. That's all we got. I'm the same. I'm a little Muppet over here.

[4:34] Robert Peterpaul: Well, you know, from growing up in the Philippines to now, I wonder just to start, how would you define kindness, Clint? And how do you think that definition has evolved for you over the years?

[4:45] Clint Ramos: You know, I love that question because a lot of it, too, I feel like is inevitably cultural, right? So, you know, growing up in the Philippines, like I think a very sort of Catholic country, you know, and also an Asian country. So you have a confluence of like, you know, a barometer of morality, I suppose, you know. And I think I always talk about like, you know, this idea of like nice versus kind versus good, you know, and that I think all of us human beings, you know, regardless of culture, regardless of whatever, I have to believe or I choose to believe that at the base of it all is that we have innate goodness, you know, whatever is sort of like, you know, a diversion from that is probably just because of nurture, right?

But our nature is an innate goodness. But kindness, I think, is like something that, to me, the way I kind of define it is a nurturing of that innate goodness, you know, so that it manifests itself through the many ways that we experience kindness, which is empathy, you know, which is a settling of the soul, you know, and a feeling that somehow you are taken care of, right? Like, I think that's how we experience it. And I think if we know and we can identify how we experience kindness, then we can probably, you know, figure out how to deploy it, you know?

[6:35] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah.

[6:36] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. I love so many of the things you said there. I'm going to create a rip-off calendar of pretty much every quote you just gave us because it was brilliant. And, you know, I will trademark it now. I'll give you I'll give you 10 percent. I'll give you all the money.

[6:49] Clint Ramos: It's all your money. I'm just going to make it. Thank you so much for coming today and I'll see you later.

[6:55] Robert Peterpaul: No, I think it's interesting, the settling of the soul, really. It actually settled my soul to hear you say that. But sometimes it's ironic because that actually looks like chaos, right? Like settling the soul and nourishing the soul to me is theater and entertainment. And that can be extremely chaotic. So it's interesting. And even hearing you talk about kindness culturally.

[7:14] Clint Ramos: Yeah.

[7:15] Robert Peterpaul: Part of the disconnect, I think maybe in the world is that we all have different definitions of kindness. So it's sort of like you might come in as a leader and think you're being kind, but then someone might experience kindness differently. So it's like, how do we meet in the middle? Have you found that to be tricky? Have you found like little hacks for that?

[7:32] Clint Ramos: I love the little hacks. That is to me the trickiest thing, you know, because I think we all come to it with our different rubric, you know, of what kindness is and what ultimately how we ultimately experience that. There are moments, there are times that we experience the kindness post the event, you know, and we're like, oh, right. That decision was made to spare me from this, you know, and that comes later. So I don't really know. It's like an everyday struggle, right? For me, I'm very conscious of this kind of, and this is a very American thing, of this, the valuation of niceness. You know, I think a lot of folks conflate niceness with kindness.

[8:27] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's something we talk about a lot on here. It's very Sondheim of you too, you know, you're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice. Nice is nice. You know, nice is nice to have, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's, you know, that it's automatically kind, right? So for me, I think kindness is really being able to think 100% think of the other person or the other party, you know, and their journey, right? And ultimately lead to, and I know this sounds hokey.

[9:02] Clint Ramos: I love hokey.

[9:03] Clint Ramos: But their spiritual growth, you know what I mean? Or their spiritual condition, right? And this goes back to what you said about chaos and, you know, like, I think when we immediately, particularly in New York City, immediately the moment we walk out of our apartments, like, and we are faced with the onslaught of what this city gives, right? Chaos already begins, right? I'm talking about external chaos. I'm not even talking about the internal chaos when the voices get really loud at night, you know what I mean? And so to me, it's hard. I don't have a hack, you know, but I always really think about, okay, so I've just experienced something that's intense, right? And I've experienced something and this person made a decision to actually, made a decision that affects me, right?

And I have to think about, was that an act of kindness? Or was that just like, you know, an act that was self-serving, you know? And everything that I experienced, like, I think becomes kind of like fall, like it becomes fodder for how I behave, you know? And it's not, it's never perfect, you know? I think a lot of people would, you know, a lot of people wouldn't look, at least for me, the way I think about myself. Like, I don't think a lot of people say, oh yeah, he's kind, you know? But I think a lot of people would define me as like extremely passionate.

[10:40] Robert Peterpaul: And, um, well, you know what? I think it's really funny that you say that, because in researching you and getting to know your career, which has touched me in so many ways that I didn't even realize, the word love is kind of splashed everywhere. Like you talk, I mean, not just here lies love, but you talk about going where the love is, you know, which we'll get into. That's almost a hack in itself is just reframing your brain and saying, go where the love is. And okay, like this might be a harsh note, but it's coming because I have a love for the project or whatever, X, Y, and Z. Like, I think you maybe inadvertently have that as a compass. And I really love that.

[11:18] Clint Ramos: Thank you for saying that, because I always forget that it's all about love, right? Like I think particularly, you know, I really gravitate towards leaders who lead with love, you know, they could be really messy leaders, you know what I mean? Organizationally challenged and all that kind of stuff. But, um, I feel like if the root of it is like this idea of love, and it goes back to what I said about like, really just absolutely believing, you know, making that decision to believe that every human being is made out of goodness, you know, is at the root of every human being is goodness, then, then you can kind of like sift through the muck, you know, when you've taken a breath, and really just like, say, Oh, yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? It hurts less, you know, it, it becomes less personal, you know?

[12:15] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, yeah. It's like a flashlight in the dark. You know, speaking of light, there's a big light behind you. Can you just paint a picture for the listeners?

[12:20] Clint Ramos: Yes, I am. I see costumes. I'm in the chorus fitting room at the Metropolitan Opera. And because I'm designing Tristan and Isolde, the costumes for Tristan and Isolde, which premieres in March. Yeah, that's where I am, you know.

[12:42] Robert Peterpaul: I love that. No, I'm glad we could paint that picture because I think it's pretty magical for people listening from all over the world to just picture themselves now in that fitting room with you. It's not glamorous. It's got like really like white fluorescent light, which I label homophobic. And then there's just so much like clothing and chaos around me, you know, because we try to fit so many people every day as we're deep into production now, you know.

[13:14] Clint Ramos: Yeah, clothing and chaos. And Clint is, you know, maybe your memoir. I don't know. Now give me 10 percent. Something we also have in common is I believe you come from a family of lawyers. And I always feel like there's kind of a fascinating crossroads between the law and acting, of course, but also the entertainment industry in general. Do you kind of feel like I love talking about this because I rarely talk about it, right? Let it rip.

[13:52] Clint Ramos: Well, Janine Tesori, a longtime collaborator and friend of mine, when she attended, you know, when she came to my wedding and then we talked about it, she's like, oh, my God, that was one of the most amazing weddings. I got married in 2014 to my husband and who happens to be a lawyer. And she said, I've never been in a room where like half of the room are like lawyers and half of the room are artists and theater people. And I've never really, you know, I've never thought of it that way. Like the law and lawyering and all of that has always been a part of my life. You know, my mom's I mean, like everybody, like even in the extended family, they're all lawyers. Right. And I have like, you know, family members who are also artists.

But I think part of what's great about growing up with lawyers and the law is that justice is defined at an early age, you know, a sense of justice and what's right and wrong, what we've, you know, and I think that kind of contributed to listen, I'm not perfect. Like I've done a lot of bad things in my life. Right. But like I knew they were bad. Right. And and but also like I've also I never had an illusion that that that that that was not bad or anything. But but to me, what it really kind of helped me and this goes towards this idea of kindness. Right. Because justice is kindness to me.

[15:29] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Justice is justice. Right. Like justice is justice because the barometer of what's right and wrong is being, you know, moved every now and then, you know what I mean? All right. But I think as human beings, as we tap into our own goodness, we know what is just and unjust. And sometimes the law is actually not just. It needs to evolve just like everything else.

[15:57] Clint Ramos: I think that's brilliant. I think justice is almost kindness on a global level when we all come together and reassess these things. And it's interesting, too, because your whole journey to me before we kind of catch up to where we are today really is rooted in that justice. And that, you know, I think it was especially around the time of the people power revolution was when you started to get into the theater. Yeah. I don't know. To me, that was an early act of kindness. And looking at your journey was the theater teacher that sort of saw you observing a lot and pulled you in. But I I'm curious, like, what did that sort of awaken in you to be a part of theater, using it as a powerful tool for change? And now you have power. Like how does that kind of track for you? I don't know. Does that make sense?

[16:39] Clint Ramos: No, no, no. Yeah, I know. I was just like, oh, my God, you have I have power. And that's always like weird. Yes, I think you are. Yeah, I think we all do have power. Right. And we all have like our own thing. So, you know, so. But except like fluorescent light bulbs, maybe they shouldn't have power. Like I think it's so glad. OK, but I think you should design a fabric with Velcro every time you go into one of these rooms that you can put over them. That makes it look like a beautiful. It's literally like, why does it need to be white light? Like, can it be like a little moment? Like, you know what I mean? But going back to this idea, I love that you talk about that drama teacher because it was such an act of kindness.

Right. Like I find myself particularly when I was growing up, growing up like I was. I was queer, right, and I was also overweight, you know what I mean? And although I grew up in a homogenous country, you know, I was a minority in my own family. So in many ways I was already like othered that way. Right. And when I was like when I was sent away for school at a very young age, like I was 11 years old when like, you know, my family said, you need to go to school there because of many reasons. And I went and I was lost and homesick and everything. And that drama teacher saw that I was seeking a sense of like home, you know, and he basically said, I don't know who you are, but you seem to be hanging around a lot here.

Come over here and do this. Right. So what what began as like this act of kindness of like a sense of community, you know, ultimately led me to this idea of like, oh, right, you can have both. You can create art, you know, and you can create community at the same time. And in many ways, because I learned that at a young age, I never really thought that one should be doing it otherwise. Right. Creating art, that community. It's always about like community to me.

[18:40] Clint Ramos: And then the stuff that we were doing, you know, I saw it move so many people. It was like protest street theater, you know, and it was electrifying. And that was my first experience of theater making. And ultimately, like three years later, you know, the revolution happened. Right. So like I saw a direct conduit between what we were doing, the community that I was beginning to be a part of and the art that we were creating had direct impact on big things. And made me like have such a high expectation on what theater making should be. You know what I mean? And and to this day, I chase that. And I think when you think about like like justice work, particularly social justice work, you know, a lot of folks really think of it, you know, and not a lot of folks, but maybe I don't know, you know, but there is a connotation that it's like this kind of like a rabid, you know, very burn the house down kind of like energy.

Right. And I'm not going to deny that there is that, you know, because that is sort of like how you awaken people, you know, that there is a fire, you know. Yeah. But I think rooted in that is really this search for justice. And I think because I equate justice with kindness to me, revolution is an act of kindness.

[20:07] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's another great definition there. And it's such a phenomenal way to start as an artist because, you know, budgets get bigger. Things can get more glamorous as an end product. But if you don't have that that moving storytelling, then you might as well go on the street and watch a street show that's like raw and coming from the heart, because that's what it's kind of all about. So to learn that early on versus maybe going into like a beautiful, splashy theater right away is super cool. And I think it should be almost like a part of training for all artists. I don't know if we can.

[20:36] Clint Ramos: Yeah, like I always feel theater, you know, like when we think about theater, we really have to like boil it down to kind of like, you know, the human being. Right. Like I think theater is or even like theater and the way we make theater or the way theater is foundational, you know, and even theater design, it's really like it is just human beings being human beings and interacting. Right. And design, for instance, you know, because I've gravitated towards design is really nothing but a container for that kind of humanity, you know. So in many ways, like theater is really about like when you look at every single show, whether it's abstract, whether it's like Castellucci or like Broadway shows or anything like that or any downtown theater, whatever across, you know, history, it's really about some human being or human beings bumping against the container that they're that's containing them.

I mean, it's that tension. Right. And you talk about like this idea of chaos. I think, you know, when you put a human being inside a container, there will always be both conflict, you know, and also resolution, you know. And I think that's essentially what theater is. You walk into an elevator and there's another person who walks after you and the two of you are going up to whatever floor you're going up. That's theater to me. You know, there's like there is something there that's happening. There's a contact that's happening. You know, all of that to me is like is just right, you know, for like for this exchange of humanity.

[22:14] Robert Peterpaul: That's really cool. I wonder, you know, the ripest to me as we're sort of on this topic and talking about your your upbringing in the Philippines and then the revolution, it must have been so surreal to then work on Here Lies Love, which centers on sort of exactly that kind of contrasting tension, Imelda Marcos. I mean, as a costume designer, because like she's fabulous as a fashionista, what kindness and care, what did that kind of look like while engaging with such complex history on that production?

[22:45] Clint Ramos: Here Lies Love is a project that will probably never leave me. Right. You know, I went to a school that was like, you know, funded by the government and that the government then was being led by the Marcos's, you know, this kind of regime, you know, led by these two human beings. Right. And in essence, like that regime kind of paid for my secondary education. Right. And I remember meeting Imelda Marcos as a young kid, you know, when she was pinning medals on students, you know, and it was what she talks about, which is like wacky to a lot of people. Really, it was reality to a lot of folks. Right. Like this idea that she was a star, you know, that was coming down to the masses because the masses were so bereft and poor that they needed a star to look up to.

That was real. You know what I mean? A lot of people say, oh, my God, that is wacky. What a megalomaniac. Sure. But also that was real. You know what I mean? So when people like experienced her and smelling good, looking good. All of that manufactured through the money that was stolen from the people. It has a certain effect, you know, and so I always had this kind of conflicted relationship to the marcuses or at least that part of Philippine history, you know, and I carry that with me because I was born into martial law. You know, I didn't know anything else. I was born into the regime. That was a 21 year regime. The revolution happened when, you know what I mean? Like when I was still in my teens, you know, and so I didn't know anything else.

Right. But I've always carried this, this conflict, you know, this, this, this, this. It's never kind of like black and white. And so when David asked me, I was right out of grad school when I got that job.

[24:40] Clint Ramos: And David asked me to work on it in his studio. I was hooked and that project has never left me and that's like over 20 years ago. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was trying to rack my brain if we met because I worked for David Korins at the time when it was at the Public Theater. I was on his social media. So, David Korins asked me to work on it before that, like he asked me in 2001, 2002, right? He didn't even know what he was going to make. He just said, listen, somebody recommended you to me, you know, which was Jessica Hagedorn, a mentor of mine, Filipina novelist, amazing novelist. And she said, you should talk to this kid. We just got out of NYU because, you know, he was like, I need a costume designer.

I said, okay, great. You know what I mean? And he didn't know what to do, but he was really fascinated by her. And I think this is going back to the idea of kindness. He was really interested in that kind of idea of like, here's this woman who has done a lot of bad things, to be honest, you know what I mean? Like, how do human beings turn into these kind of people? We also, as human beings, want to simplify that because it's better for our brains to compartmentalize it and say, oh my God, these evil people, like they, you know what I mean? They spring out of the ground or like, you know, fully formed as like these monsters, but they're not, you know what I mean? They're little girls first, you know what I mean?

They join beauty contests first, they're poor, you know what I mean? Like they dream of a Prince Charming, you know what I mean? And I think when we think about like particularly present American day politics, it's really important to understand, you know what I mean? This process of dehumanization and simplification actually happens all the time. It happens on many sides, right? That's what to me is like how folks can justify in their brains how they can justify actually separating families, you know, imprisoning folks, you know what I mean? But also on the other side, it's also easier to justify saying, hey, you know, we have these, you know, monsters basically running things, right? But I don't know, and this is going to be controversial, I'm sorry, Robert, but I don't know at what point we can actually say, hey, like, can we take a breath and like really look at what is driving all of that, right?

Like all of it. What is the root of everything? And I bet you something happened. Even like the imagery coming to my mind is like, if you don't look at who's driving the car, you're just in another car and like you're not going to stop the car. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so Here Lies Love really is like that for me. Like it's this constant like thing, right? But more than anything, I think what that project has really given me, the biggest gift that it has given me is a deep compassion for my people. You know, a lot of beautiful, a lot of folks think, oh, they're just, you know, victims, how can they still be a developing country? You know, how can this happen? And how can that happen? And look at them, you know, they're a race of people who are basically nurses or who are basically like housekeepers and nannies and all of that.

All of that is, you know, all of that has truth to it, right? Like they are a race of people who are meant to both only sing and serve. But what that, but being, having done Here Lies Love for a long time, and I still carry it with me, it has given me this deep, deep compassion for my country, you know, my home country, and the Filipinos, like how did we, how are we who we are now, right? And that's a gift. I used to be, when I first moved to America, I, you know, which was in the 90s, all I wanted to be was the best. I'm like watching Mariah Carey at the Olympics. I'm like, what happened, girl? We used to rock it, Broadway, you know, on our way to Canal Jeans, we used to rock it. But anyway, what I was going to say was that when I first moved to the US, all I really wanted to be was a blank sponge.

I wanted to be, to make me. I don't want to be where I came from. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, you can, you can make me into whatever. I wanted to be that blank sponge. And I know, you know, a lot of that was because I didn't know, I had a, I had a, I had in my young brain, I had formed an idea of myself as a Filipino, as a person of color, was based on a lot of what other people were saying, right? I didn't really think of it, you know, as like, okay, so what is behind it? You know what I mean? But all of it, you know?

[30:11] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, that's interesting. And I actually have a lot of questions about that alone. I have too many questions for you, which is part of the issue here, Clint. It's an embarrassment of riches. But while we're sort of at Here Lies Love, which I think it does lie, it lies, it's not running, it's gonna lie with you. It's not gonna run away. It's not here, runs away, love, maybe, I don't know. You know, in looking at that work, and just your body of work in general, I find another thing I admire about you, because I try to do the same, is that you quote, unquote, fight with joy. Like, it's like you use joy almost as an act of resistance and revolution, like you said before, which is similar to, you know, kindness as a revolution. Even having bold sort of campy designs in these very dark stories. Is that intentional? Is that something like you often think about?

[31:07] Clint Ramos: Yeah, it is intentional, you know, that I find something to chuckle at, you know what I mean? Like, I find something that is quirky or fascinating, even when I did like this very dark, you know, when I designed Eclipse, which was one of the darkest stories, you know what I mean? It was about like African women being like, you know, sex slaves, you know. And I found, because that's, I think, who we are as human beings, right? Like, we can be in the darkest, darkest thing. And the reason why we remember it as dark is because there is a contrast to those lighter moments within it, you know what I mean? And so I think that's what art is, you know, it just can't be like an onslaught of misery, like I think, because that's just not how the world works, right?

[32:02] Robert Peterpaul: No, when you're in the dark, you're looking for the light. Like when you're in the misery, you're looking for something to make you laugh, you're not looking for another thing.

[32:06] Clint Ramos: Right. And I'm not like making light of like really awful things in the world. But when you really break it down to like those societal, like human things, right? Every situation, whether you are being colonized, and your people are being killed within those little camps, there are people who find joy in little things. Even those folks who are like close to like, you know, and I say this, because I think that is what being a human being is, you know, I think that there has to be that there has to be that and those little sparks of joy. And, you know, I've worked on very joyful, a lot of like joyful things, like maybe happy ending, you know, I think the designs that I do for Summer for the City at Lincoln Center, where I transformed the whole campus, that's all driven by joy. You know, it's like, really, it's like, it is about it is about kind of like a push and pull between the dark and the light. And I think light has color.

[33:19] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. Light is not a white light, like this homophobic light on top of me. Like light is color, you know?

[33:29] Clint Ramos: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I love that. And you have a lot of color throughout your, I think it's 250 production CVS like receipt resume of things that you've done, Clint. I go to your Instagram, and I'm like short circuiting like a robot and maybe happy ending because I'm curious about encores. And then I'm curious about a chorus line that I'm curious about, maybe happy ending, then it's like Tristan. And I won't ask you to pick a favorite, but like, what's been your favorite? No, I'm just kidding. I wonder, like, in looking at all of this, how do you practice self-kindness and sort of sustain yourself through this volume of work, while also being a dad, you know, being a leader, but just someone who's so relied on others? What like, how do you recharge?

[34:10] Clint Ramos: Oh, my God. Well, when I became a dad, and I got married, I think one thing that I really did was when I put our kid, you know, when we put our kid to bed, and my husband says, are you coming to bed? I don't, I take back two hours, at least two hours of that time. And I've made a decision that I'm just going to sacrifice sleep for that. So I have that time for myself. And I had to do anything, you know, like, you know, be caught in a rabbit hole of like research, or just like following a particular artist and just like going into their Instagram or whatever, or like, literally, you know, like working some with my hands, you know, like, craft projects or something like that. Or, or anything, if I could garden at night, like I would.

But maybe I need to figure out what that is. But I think there's a way that's one thing that I do. And the other thing that I do is, this is really crazy. And I love crazy. Okay, well, I think about like this question of like, am I a good person? And I really run with it. You know, I read it recharges me to think about to kind of like fantasize of like, maybe I'm not a good person. It really centers me, you know what I mean? Because I need to myself all the time. And it somehow recharges me when I, when I, at the end of it, you know, say, right, I'm actually good. I'm a good.

[35:51] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, you list all the things for yourself that you've done to make good in the world to make good in the world, but also like, the most minute things, the things that affect us in the most direct way, like I have a huge fight, you know, for example, I have a huge fight with my husband, and we say awful things to each other or whatever it is, right. And in that moment, like after that, like at the end of the day, you kind of like, oh my God, I really, it's intense. Like, I don't think I'm a good person. How, how was I able to, like, say things that was so hurtful to that person? Right. And then I, then you go through the process of digging, like, oh, I said that, because I came from this place of like, whatever, right.

And it's always like that kind of thing, right. But I will never say, I think it's really, to me, we're in such danger when we go, when we say, no, no, no, no, no, what I did was absolutely right. You know, that I was in the right, in the path of righteousness. I do that, like when I scold my kid, you know what I mean? Like every single thing that I, you know what it is, you know what I mean? It scratches in your conscience, it scratches in your soul, like in the back of your brain, it's like there.

[37:01] Clint Ramos: I don't know, you know, I've developed this ability to kind of like compartmentalize that as part of the work or part of like, that's just shrapnel in the battle of life, but it's not, you know what I mean? Like, we're not built out of armor, you know, and so to me, that really is like a recharge for me, like a reminder that, oh, right.

[37:20] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I think that's very relatable for everybody, like we can, you know, we all just take a second, even just reflecting, you know, in this world where the moment we have downtime, we can pick up our phones and, you know, scroll Instagram and look at the 75,000 projects that Clint's doing or, you know, go to TikTok, whatever, you know, I think being bored is underrated. And having those moments to just stop and reflect on your day is kind of getting lost. And I think that also contributes to how we show up the next day in the world, because we're just not taking these moments. So I love that reminder for everybody listening.

[37:54] Clint Ramos: I talk to myself so much. I'm, you know, a lot of people, I don't know, I just literally verbalize things to myself, like I talk to myself so much.

[38:07] Robert Peterpaul: That's nice. I think, you know, being a dad, father, you know, friend, all these titles are the best. But another pretty good one is being a Tony winner. And I do wonder, you won for Best Costume Design of a show, you touched on a play, Eclipse, starring Lupita in 2016, I believe. Did that moment change how you see yourself or talk to yourself with kindness?

[38:31] Clint Ramos: I find it there to be an interesting parallel when you talk about being othered, even within your own family growing up, to then having this moment that, I mean, maybe like negative 0.5% of the world experiences of being accepted by everyone. How did you sort of find that you went about through your career and through life after that post-Tony? Does it carry a lot of weight? I mean, I know there's a celebration.

[38:55] Clint Ramos: Yes, it does. You know, I'm not gonna lie and say, oh, no, that's just another, you know, awards don't matter. You know what I mean? Like, it mattered to me. Like a lot of people were, you know, like noticed me or whatever, because that was, you know, my first nomination out of the gate. You know what I mean? And like, I didn't really imagine that I would be, you know, I had done Broadway shows before Eclipse, but I had never imagined that I would be a Broadway designer. You know what I mean? Like, I never thought I would work on Broadway. Like, it would have been nice, but like, I knew the odds were slim for me, you know, just because of the way things work. But like, that to me, that to me, really, it made me feel like, oh, right.

[39:51] Clint Ramos: Like, I think enough of my peers think that I have, you know, that my work is worth something, you know, and particularly for theater people, you know, or for a lot of us artists, you know, a lot of our identity, which we conflate with personhood is attached to our work, you know, and so it did, it mattered to me. It also, I also knew that, you know, because of that kind of like visibility, and that sort of like shift, you know, that, that I could do more things, you know, I could say more, you know, and people, more people will probably listen, you know, but, you know.

[40:39] Robert Peterpaul: Well, and that you did even in your speech, I don't want to gloss over that in your acceptance speech, you did what we've been talking about this whole time, which was sort of use your art as activism in a way, because you shouted out Orlando, which at the time had just had the major shooting. I mean, it's sort of like, even in that moment, that was so all about you, you used it to then try and make good in the world, which I don't want to gloss over.

[41:02] Clint Ramos: Yeah, no, I think, you know, Jesus, I forget how horrific that day was, because we were, you know, getting ready for this fancy event. And then all of a sudden, you have to think about all of those.

[41:18] Clint Ramos: It was crazy. I was in Orlando, I was at, well, we were at Disney World, but it was, I can't even imagine, you know, so it was, yeah, I mean, and to not, you know, to, I think silence equals death, as we all know, but like, I think also, like, I think, you know, I think about this a lot now that I have a kid, you know, and then I'm, you know, married, and, and, you know, there's, there's a lot of bigger forces that I'm involved in, you know, that, and I think a lot about, like, oh, how much easier it is to be silent.

[41:44] Clint Ramos: You know, but also, I think a lot about like, well, how can I not be silent? In how many ways can I actually say the things that I want to say, you know, and, and a lot of it is like, through my work, you know, from the decisions that I made to how I, how I curate my staff, to who I mentor, to, you know, the way, you know, Jenny Gerson and I program Encores!, you know, that's the other two, it's like, I'm very fortunate that I work with like minded people, you know, like I have a long relationship with, with so many people who basically, we, I don't have to explain things to them, because they are going to make the right, the same decision that I will, like, oh, who should we cast here? Who should we ask to direct? What should we do? You know, who are we going to put, you know what I mean? How do we program American Songbook or whatever it is, or to the smallest thing of like, which vendor are we going to use for this particular costume? You know what I mean?

[43:16] Clint Ramos: All of that, you know, is, is a voice. All of those are voices like that is like how we can also not be silent. You know what I mean? It's not Instagram post.

[43:29] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. No, it's an action. It's a show. Don't tell, you know, that's sort of the old artist, more of a writing standpoint added show. Don't tell. But I love that you're showing it through your work. And you just mentioned it as producing creative director of Encores!, which is such an amazing title to hold at the New York City Center. You've helped kind of usher in a totally new era for that program, I think. And what does kind leadership look like to you now, as your influence has grown? Like, do you have any tangible things that you think more leaders could do to create kinder, safer rooms?

[44:01] Clint Ramos: Yeah. Widen your embrace. Literally, widen your embrace. That's what we did at Encores! You know what I mean? Listen, in the last five, six years that, you know, we entered leadership, again, I'm so, so lucky, because when Lear de Bessonnet asked Jetty Gersten and I to join her at Encores!, we were, we were in sync and locked in our steps. You know what I mean? And it was one of those things where I was like, oh, this is kind of like amazing, because, you know, you know, we all made a decision. We were gonna swing hard. And if we swung hard, and, you know, the chips fell the other way that we would all, you know, be in front of it. You know what I mean?

[44:50] Clint Ramos: But one of the things that we're very, very, very proud of is that, you know, in the last five years, or in the last six years, we've actually brought in more people to engage with the series than there has been in the last 30 years of its existence.

[45:08] Robert Peterpaul: Wow. That's huge in this time.

[45:13] Clint Ramos: There are folks who have never done Encores! before. I've never, you know, there were folks and now a lot of like, to us is really like, okay, so who else can we invite? A lot of people think that we like go into like, you know, like some sort of coven and we kind of like figure out the season. No, it's really actually more porous and more casual than that. Our seasons have been planned with the community, because we have an open door policy. Like, everybody has my phone number, Jenny's phone number. When Lear was there, Lear's phone number, and artists would just text from directors to composers to the music directors to actors. You know, we'd get a call from Billy Porter saying, I want to do this.

Or we'd get a call from like, you know, everybody, like, you know, somebody said, what if we do Titanic? How can we do, you know, a Titanic with 100 people on stage, including an orchestra? You know what I mean? Like, how do we? It all comes from the artists. And that's, to me, what has been, I think, you know, part of your question about like kindness. It's really like widen your embrace, like let more people in, you know.

[46:46] Clint Ramos: You know, in the Philippines, okay, and I'll bring it back to the Philippines. In May, you know, in May, it's called fiesta season, where every single town in every province in those 7,000 islands, they all have patron saints, right? And every day in May, it would be a feast of a particular patron saint. And what Filipinos do during that time in every town and everything is literally open their doors and have food 24-7. So anybody can just walk into anybody's house and literally be entertained. You know what I mean? And so I think about like how we do create like institutions and programming here. You know, I think if we let the community lead, you know, and if we let the community basically tell us what they want, we will be programming things that they will want.

[47:25] Robert Peterpaul: What a novel idea. And, you know, I think it's so wild. Like, you know, when we said to Austin. Oh, my God.

[47:39] Clint Ramos: The people power revolution of theater, led by Clint.

[47:43] Clint Ramos: Yeah. Well, not just me, but like a lot of people who think like me. Like, you know, like Austin Spiro took over social media, you know, at Encores! when we first started. And he said, you know, what should we do? And we were like, well, ask people what they want, you know?

[48:00] Clint Ramos: And so people literally like in our Instagram, in our Twitter would be like, hey, you know, we really want Titanic. We really want Titanic. Or when are you going to do like Urinetown? Or can we, you know, all of it. You know what I mean? Like every single show really comes from.

[48:22] Robert Peterpaul: The community.

[48:24] Clint Ramos: Yeah. And you see, I mean, even with this podcast, it's like, I'll ask what guests do you want? And it's like, oh, people want to maybe happy ending. And then, oh, people actually tune in more for the things that you're putting out there that they want.

[48:34] Clint Ramos: It's such an interesting thing, specifically with you and maybe happy ending, actually getting to that before it's almost 12 and we got to go is Michael Arden. I mean, I got to pop into the tech rehearsal for maybe happy ending for like two hours. I think maybe there was one or two moves teched because it was such a tech heavy show. And I witnessed firsthand how Michael Arden.

[49:00] Clint Ramos: Oh, are we good? Oh, you're not being recording. I think we're back.

[49:08] Clint Ramos: And if you're not, then the interview just ended. And you know what? Sad. Until next time, remember, everything is going to be OK.