This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ray Mercer: Once I started dancing, I started to realize that this was going to be my ticket out. I didn't know how it was going to happen because, once again, my parents were not of this world. So I'm sitting at home trying to escape a reality, watching TV.

[0:20] Gennean Scott: Welcome to The Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here, we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I'm your host, Gennean Scott.

[0:44] Gennean Scott: I am so excited to be back from our summer hiatus. I hope you all have stayed hydrated because this, my friend, is a marathon and not a sprint. So today, I have the honor of speaking with director, choreographer, writer, creative director, teacher, actor, singer, dancer, influencer, and former Juilliard School of Dance major, Gregory Butler. Gregory is currently the Associate Choreographer for the six-time Tony Award-winning musical, Chicago. He has been a part of Chicago since 1996. He has mounted this production in Moscow, Denmark, Korea, Amsterdam, Germany, and, of course, here in the U.S. Hey, it's so good to be here. And joining Gregory, I have Ray Mercer. Ray is a native of Omaha, Nebraska.

He started his training at the University of New Orleans. He is presently in his 20th year as a dancer and fight captain in Disney's The Lion King on Broadway. Ray is a choreographer for the Ailey School's Professional Division and resident choreographer for Philodanko. He is the artist-in-residence at Omaha Performing Arts and Tall Poppy Artists. The Smithsonian Museum has commissioned and archived Ray's work. So listen, people. People are like, look, this intro is long, but let me tell you, I'm going to give you both your flowers right here and right now, okay, because the body of work that you all have put out and the contributions that you have given not just to Broadway but to your community, you deserve to be saluted. And I thank you both for being here with me today.

[2:39] Gregory Butler: Of course. This is awesome.

[2:44] Gennean Scott: I want to look back at where you all came from and how you got here. I was pulling up stats recently and looking at the number of men who just dance, not even Broadway, but just dance. And then I was trying to find the number of men of color who dance, and I couldn't find that. But what I did find was that 26 percent of individuals who identify as male are dancers and then 12.5 percent of dancers, that's everyone, 12.5 percent identify as Black or African American. How in the world did you find dance, let alone Broadway? Like how, how, how, how?

[3:42] Ray Mercer: You know, I don't know. I think that, I think it goes back to that age-old saying when, you know, you don't find something, it finds you. You know, I think it, I don't know if I found dance, but I think dance found me. You know, I was, I was a gymnast. I was on my way to the Olympics. I was training to go to the Olympics and living in Omaha, Nebraska. And I was 17 years old, and a friend of mine took me to a small studio in Omaha, Nebraska. And I walked in, and it was a ballet class, and of all things. And I absolutely fell in love with it. You know, I fell in love with the physicality and, and, you know, and, and the work that it required. And from then, walking out of that studio that night, I knew I wanted to be a dancer. You know, I think that night it found me.

[4:44] Gregory Butler: Born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, you know, a child of the 60s. And, you know, in the 70s, look, my family didn't know of dance, didn't know of entertainment, didn't know of anything. And my childhood upbringing was dramatic and had a lot of friction. So I was always, at an early age, I had already looked for escape through television and through fantasy. So that seed for me to find a way to escape my reality, because it was so harsh, was already planted. And at age 14, I was attending Durfee Junior High, and Betty Fuller was the female gym teacher. She had, she taught dance. She had, I was her sound person, which back in that day meant needle on, needle off. It wasn't too deep. But one day, Mrs. Fuller was talking to the young ladies about her dance studio, the Fuller Dance School.

And I was, it just sparked interest. And so I went up to her after the class, and I asked her, I said, can I come? And she was like, well, you know, it's only girls, but we also teach karate, which is how they would coerce boys into this dance world by teaching something masculine, something sports-like. It's like, oh, we'll trick them. And so she said, yeah, come. So I started taking karate for like six months, but the dressing room was, I had to walk through the main studio, and I would always watch the girls dancing. And I was like, Mrs. Fuller, I want to do that. And she was like, okay. And that's how I started. So dance found you too then.

[6:48] Ray Mercer: Yeah. And I also, I say dance saved me, seriously, because, you know, it was a lot of drama going on in my household. And I had angels in my life, and it started off being Betty Fuller, and then it went to Carol Maruso of the Detroit City Dance Company, and then Phyllis Stowe. I know Carol, I guess it's a company. Love me some Carol. That's how I met Warren Spears, Arena Theater. You know, I started to branch out. And then Phyllis Stowe was like a second mother to me of the Unique Dance Theater. And she brought me in, and she saw something in me and was my guardian angel for until I moved away at age 20.

[7:38] Gennean Scott: How did you overcome the whole, men don't dance, boys don't dance, they play football, they do this, or Black men don't do that? You know, like, how did you overcome that? Because I'm there, I know several young men, they have the desire to dance, and some of their parents support them. And some of their parents, you know, say no, because it's not what we do. Although I think we do everything.

[8:03] Ray Mercer: Oh, of course. How? How?

[8:06] Gregory Butler: You know, honestly, my mother said no to me dancing. And it was my father who said yes. My dad, which is so not the story most of the times, my dad was like, Gregory has found something that he wants to do. Let's let him try this. And I don't know if I overcame it as much as I just muscled through. Because it was my passion, what I realized was my passion to dance was stronger than the hate I was receiving and the teasing and bullying that I got. And here's the deal. I tell kids all the time, you know, once you start this, something happens with the masses, talents trump everything. It's like, once they start to see, oh, Gregory Butler can dance, and Gregory Butler's with all these pretty girls, you know, it's like, all of a sudden, the boys are like, oh, yo, man, you know, and I'm like, child, please.

You know, but it started to, I started to, for lack of a better phrase right now, make a name for myself in my school life, because they knew me as the dancer. So I don't know, I carried a lot of that teasing, taunting, shame, all that stuff that happened to me, it, I carried it with me through my lifetime, until I worked it out in therapy. And it also now informs a lot of the work that I do. For some reason, I think I had the wherewithal enough to not pay attention to any of that. And my defense was just to be the best one in the room. I always, I worked hard, you know, and I guess my biggest defense was just to work hard. I was always trying, striving to be the best one in the room, whatever that meant. You know, was it work ethic, or artistically, or, you know, whatever that was, my efforts were always, you know, trying to be the best that Ray Mercer could be.

[10:23] Ray Mercer: Right. And I will say also, once I started dancing, I started to realize that this was going to be my ticket out. I didn't know how it was going to happen. Because once again, my parents were not of this world. So I'm sitting at home trying to escape a reality, watching TV. So on that TV, I would see, you know, Lawrence Welk, you know, Johnny Carson's show, all the pageants, every pageant in the world, because I love me some pageants. And I would see variety shows, I would see Solid Gold dancers. And I that's where I first saw Sammy Davis Jr., Lena Horne, you know, Bob Fosse, Gwen Ver, all these people. And I'm like, I don't know how, but that's where I'm supposed to be. So whatever that was, that is the thing that moved me forward.

Because I did get teased and taunted a lot for that simple reason. But I look back now, and I see how brave that little boy is. And it just fills my heart, because I was so full of fear. But I was doing it anyway. Now, and let's be true, I started off in modern, and I've always been a better performer than I was a technician. I had my little tricks, but I was never the most flexible girl in the room or you know, I didn't and you know.

[11:42] Ray Mercer: I started doing acros, so I had that to my advantage. And I was always just a better performer. The actor in me was first and foremost. And then the dancer kind of caught up. So, in the 70s in Detroit, I was, you know, being a little black boy who wanted to do this, everybody used me. You know, Carol would use me for a lot of things. I met, she had Warren Spears come and choreograph a piece for the company. And he saw me, and he wanted to use me. And then that connected me with Rima Veeder, because Rima, who was a Fosse dancer, was Warren's assistant. And then she was my connection when I moved to New York to go to Juilliard. I mean, it all, God just went bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. At 16, I was playing the violin.

And Ben Vereen, who was one of my idols, was doing his show at the music hall. And I snuck into the theater, went downstairs, and they had obviously either had a Sitzprobe or were just working on music because the orchestra chairs were out. I went to the violin one chair, saw the book and stole it. I took it. And my thinking was, I'm going to give it back to Ben Vereen. I went, I went to my dance teacher, Phyllis Stowe, and she was like, are you out of your mind? So she had me write a letter and we sent it back, had my phone number. Ben Vereen called me. And that started a relationship with Ben Vereen. Come on, this man that I saw on TV. That's awesome. I don't recommend that people go around.

No, don't be stealing. Don't be trying to go in buildings and doing things. We shouldn't do that. But again, you know, here's this little boy in Detroit, Michigan, unafraid. I give him so much applause now because I, you know, I know how fearful he was, but don't steal.

[13:54] Gennean Scott: Right. I mean, so who were some of your influences? Because I too am from Nebraska and we're kind of a flyover, you know, we're not like the, we're not like the home of Motown or, you know, or anything like that. It's, it's, it's really different.

[14:12] Ray Mercer: Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that, you know, I always think of that. I always go back and I say, God, I'm from Omaha, Nebraska. When I have conversations with people and they, and the first thing they say, are there any black people? Do people say that to you? I say, no, there are no more left. They're gone. There's no one there. Talent is everywhere. You know, it really is. And it's just a matter of how much tenacity you have and how much, you know, you know, what, what drives you, what pushes you forward and those to get you out. And, you know, I don't even, you know, even when I go back to Omaha, I always say, you know, it's not a matter of getting out of Omaha. It's just exploiting the talent that you have.

You know, sometimes you don't want to leave, but there can be talent right there in that city. You know, New York is not the end all. It really isn't. You know, who's to say that you can't be the best dancer in Omaha, Nebraska, whatever that looks like. But thinking back, I was thinking about when we were talking about fear real briefly, and then we'll get back to who my influences were. Fear. My grandmother used to always say, if you can't beat fear, you have to do it scared, you know, and had if you can't, if you can't beat it, and I just carried that in my pocket all my life. If you can't beat fear, do it scared.

[15:41] Gregory Butler: Snatching wigs. Honey, I'm writing that down right now.

[15:48] Ray Mercer: So that's what I, you know, there's a lot of situations where I, I'm still scared today. I got a production meeting that I have to go through at the end of the week. I am petrified, I'm gonna walk into that production meeting and be scared, but get all I need to get from it. So I think that's been my, you know, my force or my push forward through my career is that, you know, there's a lot of situations that I probably shouldn't have been in the room, or I probably, but I walked in there scared. And, you know, sometimes I walked out, didn't get what I wanted. And sometimes I walked out with a lesson. Sometimes I walked into the room and got exactly what it is that I needed. So I guess my advice through my grandmother is, if you can't beat fear, do it scared.

It'll carry you, it'll carry you through. Some of my, so some of my influences, I, I hate this question because I always forget people. You know, I always, I always forget people. So my answer is always, I'm always inspired by, you know, I'm inspired by this conversation today. You know, I have, you know, there's, being in the city, I'm constantly inspired by tremendous artists who are doing beautiful things, you know, and I, and if I, if I say one person, then I forget the other. But if I say one, one person, you know, it kind of, it throws everything into a box. There are contemporary, like always, my go-to is always Ulysses Dove. I always loved his work. He is one of the most, you know, his, his vocabulary and his, his storytelling and his approach to dance was always one of my, you know, when I, you know, as a concert dance choreographer, sometimes I, my go-to is always him, is always my answer.

But it's many people for me. It really, it's every day somebody different. I love, and here's the thing, Ulysses Dove is not a name that people hear often. And, and I think, and before you, before you jumped on, we were talking and we were talking about how, you know, how individuals just get, you know, they get written out of, out of narratives.

[18:19] Gregory Butler: Right, right. And, and, and so I, I'm glad, I'm glad you, I'm glad you mentioned and it'll give somebody something to go Google and learn. Always, always. I really, I really would encourage you if you don't know anything about him, it's just to Google him. I just want to tap on something, if you don't mind, that Ray was talking about, talking about that fear, because, you know, I, I think I know for myself that fear was not just about me not being enough in my talent place. It was also, I grew up in a world, we grew up in a world where my experience as a Black person was not valued in a lot of ways. So I was not seeing my stories. I was turning on TV. Yes, I was fantasizing about being there, but look at what I was fantasizing about.

I was fantasizing about being a part of the Brady Bunch. I was fantasizing, you know, about being engulfed and placed into the white world, the white society, because that's what was told to us was the best. And then you're, I'm a little Black boy who has friction at home and I want to escape it. So all of a sudden being Black is not the thing. I want to idolize being white. So I also was walking into a predominantly white field afraid that I wasn't enough, you know, afraid that I had to not be my authentic self or this stereotype that you see. So I would end up whitewashing myself as we say, in order to fit in. So that fear was not just me going, oh, I'm not talented enough or I'm not this. It was a bigger picture going around, you know, that we're now just now uncovering.

[20:16] Ray Mercer: Yeah. I think too, one of those things is, you know, you see this all the time, you know, especially with Black male dancers. For a long time, I was caught up in, you know, because I was a Black male dancer and I looked a certain way that I would always have a job. And, you know, for a long time, I was like, you know, well, you know, they'll always need male dancers. They'll always need, you know, they'll always, particularly Black male. And then when I got to New York, I figured, oh, shit, I'm going to have to work. You know what I mean? You can't just walk into a room because there are 10 other guys that look like me who are just as talented as me, you know? And so I always encourage young dancers, work is, there is no formula.

There's no, I get this question all the time, Ray, how have you done it for so long? Or what, you know, what is it? There is no secret. I wish there was a secret because I would patent it, but there is no secret other than hard work. You just have to do the work. And the more important jobs, the bigger jobs, you know, you can't rely on your aesthetic or walking in a room as a male dancer. You have to do the work. You absolutely have to do the work, period.

[21:36] Gregory Butler: Yeah, no shortcoming. Yep. And they say, Ray, how have you done it? I, you know, sometimes it irritates me. I worked, I worked hard. Nothing was handed to you. Nothing was handed to me. I wish it was, and I wish it was that easy, or I wish I had a secret, but I don't, I don't have no secrets. I don't. I just worked hard. I really did. It's continued to.

[22:01] Gennean Scott: All right. So Gregory, you made your Broadway debut in 1986.

[22:11] Gregory Butler: Yeah. With the musical Raggedy Ann. Come on. Directed and choreographed by the five-time Tony Award nominated Patricia Birch. What was that like?

[22:22] Gregory Butler: Oh my God. Your first moment. I remember the final callback. Joe Raposa wrote the music and Patricia Birch, like you said, was the director choreographer. We, back in the day, they used to do auditions at theaters, at Broadway theaters. So we were at the Nederlander theater and it was an all day situation. I didn't even, I mean, it was my first, I'm like, oh my God, what is this? I walk in, there's Gail Benedict, another Fosse dancer. And I'm like, oh my God, it's Gail Benedict. So, you know, we're all doing our whole thing. And then at the end of the day, Pat and Joe lined us up and came up to the stage and said, congratulations, you're our company. That has never happened to me since. And I remember going outside, walking on the street, and this is, you know, when New York was really New York and getting on the pay phone, getting on the pay phone.

[23:24] Gregory Butler: I just got cast in my first Broadway show, you know, and it was everything. It was everything. I mean, it was like this little boy from Detroit, this little black boy from Detroit, had finally stepped into his dream in a lot of ways, you know. And the beautiful thing about it is the opening number was a Fosse-esque number. It was, she had us in bowler hats and gloves, and I was the first person to walk on stage. And I got to do all this Fosse vocabulary that Pat had created. Little did I know that, you know, years later, what would happen. And I just, that's when I look back and go, it's divine intervention because it's more than me. It's more than me. And I look back with perspective now and I go, God, you worked that.

You worked that. How you planned my life out. And I was ready to derail it. Many times I tried. I really did. But having that, the fact that I kept going forward gave God the opportunity to do what God does. And I know this is not about that, but that's how I live my life. So the experience was everything. It was everything. And working with Patricia, who also cast and ranking in her big break in over there. I mean, it's like the dots connecting. Ridiculous.

[25:03] Ray Mercer: 20 years. Yeah, I know. It's crazy, right? That's the whole deal. With the Lion King. Yeah, it's crazy. Janine, it's so crazy. Thinking back, it was my first and only Broadway gig and I was a flight attendant at the time. I was a flight attendant and I was flying all around the world. I would fly into New York for auditions. I was based in Detroit, Gregory. Oh my goodness. I was based in Detroit and on my days off, I would fly into New York for classes and I would spend the night with friends and audition. And I—

[26:00] Gregory Butler: See, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but see people that right there is the work. Who flies in for class? Go ahead. Some don't go five blocks for class.

[26:11] Ray Mercer: Yeah, I was flying in. I was flying in for classes. So then I eventually ended up in Chicago and Lion King had an audition back in 2003. Lion King had an audition and everybody in that city, every Black person that I knew was at that audition. And it was an all-day thing. And then at the end of the day, I looked around, which was probably a hundred guys to start off with because they did the guys separate from the girls. And then I looked around and there was five of us left. And I said, wow, this could be real. And eventually there was five of us. And then probably about a month later, I was coming off a trip on my way to New York to take class. And I checked my cell phone and they said, Ray Mercer, we would like to congratulate you.

You know, you are down. And that single phone call, I remember where I was. I was in the airport parking lot and across the street I could see a McDonald's. And I remember exactly where I was when I got that phone call and how I felt and how that one phone call would change my life forever. It almost brings tears to my eyes right now to think about it. And then I think so. I tell people, you know, when you're in situations or even people at work, you know, when you're doing a show for so long, I tell them sometimes that you have to think about what it felt like when you got that phone call. What did that feel like? You know, and why God chose you, you know, and out of all the black people that are doing the work, all the black people who have done the work, why at that particular time, in that instant, did he choose you?

And because he chose you, what are you going to do with it? So I have to constantly remind myself that I have a job to do, you know, because I was gifted with something extraordinary. And with that, I can move forward and I can change lives. And so I honor it. Really, it's a sacred, it's a very, very sacred thing.

[28:42] Ray Mercer: One real quick thing, I think about full circle moments. I was a young boy, probably about, I was in middle school, and I got on my first plane ride to New York. And my aunt lived here. She lived in the Bronx. And she, I spent the week, the week with my cousin over the summertime. And she took me to see a Broadway show. It was the Tap Dance Kid. And we went to go see the Tap Dance Kid. And I remember sitting in the audience and seeing people that look like me. And I was like, Oh, my God. If you just don't, people say this all the time about, you know, it's important that you see things that look like you. And had I not seen that, you just, it's so, it's, it's imperative. But long story short, we were at the Minskoff Theater, you know, and, you know, sitting there.

Fast forward, all this time later, I am at the Minskoff Theater in the Lion King. It's crazy. So, I know, it's just moments like those that you need to pay attention to, you know, and acknowledge and share. I wish people could see our reactions, because we are fanning out here. It's like we are like, yes, yes, Ray.

[30:11] Gregory Butler: You know, if I can just interject right here and just because right before Chicago, I had done a national tour of applause. I had stopped dancing for a while because it was, I was singing, acting, and doing that whole thing. And I was like, you know, let me put the dancing aside. And then I saw in backstage that Anne Reinking was choreographing Applause, a national tour. And I, Anne Reinking was an idol. I had her posters and all that. And I went to, Luigi's took a jazz class because I was like, oh my God, I had to get back in shape the day before. Big mistake, big mistake. She was so sore for that audition. Well, I go in, there's Anne Reinking, and I'm like, my head's blowing off and I'm trying to be cool.

We do the first combination to Chicky Chicky Owl, I can't think of the name of the song right now. And she cuts me. I was devastated, devastated. So I'm walking to get my bag, that slow walk, long walk we do when we've been cut. I'm getting my bag and I'm about to leave. And Anne comes up to me and she says, excuse me, do you sing? And I said, I do. And she said, do you really sing? And I just went, I do. And she was like, stay. So I stayed. I ended up getting the show and she partnered me with our star, Stephanie Powers. And the two of us had this little duet that we had to do. And I was doing what I do naturally, which is help figure it out. We were just figuring it out and dot, dot, dot. So it came time for them, and the show closed on the road.

It didn't work, but the producers were Fran and Barry Weiser. And they were the same producers for Chicago. So when we closed, Barry came to us and said, look, we're closing the show, but we have this other show that's doing okay for us and we will do our best to keep you all employed. And so they called me in for the first national and I ended up getting it. The general manager called me and he said, you've been offered the role of Harry and also dance captain. I said, I will take the role I will turn down the dance captain. I've never done it. Thank you. And he was like, let me give you some advice. When Anne Reinking asked you to dance captain her show, you do not say no. And I was like, okay.

The best advice I've ever been given in my life. And it worked out. And I asked Annie, we were doing off Broadway doing Here Lies Jenny starring Bebe Neuwirth. And I was a part of that original cast. And one night Annie and I were just sitting and I said, why did you ask me to be dance captain? I said, because I'd never done it. There was nothing on my resume that said dance captain. She said, it was because I watched how you handled Stephanie. I watched how you communicated with her as you all were dancing together and how you helped her. And I thought that's the person I want to dance captain my show. So I tell people all the time, pay attention in the room. You never know who's watching, who's listening, who's talking about you and where the next job is coming from.

I'm not saying be something you're not. When I have auditions, I will walk the halls, you know, all of a sudden Gregory's got to go to the bathroom and get water because I want to watch people in their natural habitat. I want to see how you're acting out in the hallway. And then when you come in the room, I want to check you out. Are you polite? Because, you know, I want to know who I'm going to spend my next six months with, you know, whatever it is, you know, so Annie taught me a huge lesson with that. And I obviously forever grateful for that. With your positions, with where you all are, especially with the longevity that you both have in this industry, you know, with great rewards come great responsibility, right?

What, how do you use your position? I mean, we talked a little bit about, you know, needing to use our position, but how do you use your position to mentor other young dancers, other young black dancers? I mean, how do you use the platform that you've been given to give back? What does that look like for you?

[35:00] Gregory Butler: A lot of it, you know, I guess my first instinct was to say is to lead by example.

[35:06] Gregory Butler: You know what I mean? My other instinct is education. You know what I mean? What you do in, you know, masterclasses and things like that and sharing. And to me, whenever I have a masterclass, I've haven't touched many. Usually they come with a residency. If I'm teaching a residency or I'm choreographing, you know, I'll throw in a couple of masterclasses. But I think beyond the steps in teaching choreography and things like that is the, I always have a Q&A at the end, you know, so that we can share and share their experiences. I guess my giveback is the exchange of experiences, you know, what I've had and the knowledge and, you know, those things that I have experienced, you know, just sharing those in classes and such.

That, you know, I guess that would be my biggest giveback. First and foremost, for me, I have to, and no ego in this, I have to recognize the magnitude of the gift that has been placed in my life. Chicago has been a huge life-changing experience for me. I was, you know, able to perform the show for 14 years. I've been with the show for 25. I, you know, got to come in and re-rehearse the company for the Broadway reopening after the pandemic, which that was months after Annie had passed away. And I have to also recognize, and I say this a lot and it becomes white noise after a while, but I will continue to say it. For me, I have to give props to this little Black boy from Detroit, Michigan, who is now the Associate Choreographer for Chicago, the musical, and the lineage that has.

So I have to show up with that. So I have to give back with that too. And I do the same thing that Ray was talking about. When I do workshops and teaching, I recognize that I am probably not the face they think they're going to see when they say Associate Choreographer for Chicago, the musical, but when I show up, I show up. I need like Oprah and them say, you know, with the 10,000 behind me, you know, I show up with the Louis Johnson's, you know, everybody, you know, Frank Gaston's, all these giants who have gone before me. So, and I want other Black dancers to know that this is possible for you, which is why I have to stay visible, because it's easy for me to just boohoo it, because it's so much a part of my experience that I don't give it its props, which is weird to say, but you know, I'm just living my life.

But I have to go, you have this opportunity now, this experience, so now use it so that other little Black boys can know that this is possible for them. And it wasn't, and like Ray said earlier, it wasn't handed to me, you know, so I do that in my teaching, I do it in my writing, I do it on social media, you know, I do it in any platform I am blessed to do it in, you know, that I just finished rehearsing Angelica Ross, our new Roxy for Broadway, and one day we were just chitting and chatting, and I'm, and we just marveled at the moment that here she is, this Black actress going into this iconic show as Roxy Hart, and she's being taught by me, a Black gay associate choreographer. I mean, it just, by us being in the room together, it broke down so many things, you know, I mean, it doesn't get better than that, meaning what we're expiring to and what we're stepping into, you know, so we had a moment where we had to recognize, you know, so that then we can go out and let others know it's possible.

And a lot of times when I post on social media, it's not so much, yes, I have an ego, let's just say it, but it's not so much about the ego as it is about reaching people and letting young dancers know, young Black dancers, female and male, that this is possible.

[40:06] Gennean Scott: Yep, yes. Exactly. So before we wrap up, I always have this one last question, and you all have given so many little nuggets that you may be like, I don't know, go listen to the podcast again. What piece of advice do you have for the future Black leaders of Broadway, whether they be choreographers, writers, creative directors, dancers, dance captains, singers, what piece of advice, what one piece of advice would you like to offer up? Mine is this, it's kind of twofold, but like I said earlier, that there is no secret formula, you know, and if you are asking me, if you're asking me, you know, what I need to do, or am I working hard enough? If anybody asks me, are you working hard enough? If you're asking me that question, you're not.

You have to, hard work is the formula. And two, I would encourage people to not put a timeline or expiration date on any of your dreams, on anything. I mean, if you want to get your Tony Award when you're 102 years old, that's exactly when you should get your Tony Award. Amen. If I had to put a timeline on any of my goals or aspirations, I wouldn't be dancing in Lion King, I wouldn't be signing in later on today and hopping in a giraffe right now, if I had to put a timeline on any of my goals or my dreams. So there is no timeline, there is no expiration date, you just continue to work hard and work smart. I love it.

[41:55] Ray Mercer: Yeah. You know, I want to say this because I think he's remarkable, and this may be a part of the question, it may not be, but forgive me if not. I was doing, I'm a part of this documentary coming out called Back to Broadway that Time did around the six, I think, six or seven shows that opened right after the pandemic. And we did a talkback during the Tribeca Film Festival, and it was led by Andre DeShields and Cynthia Erivo. Andre said something that I just thought was so, it just echoed what I was thinking. And he said, is there change? Is there transition happening on Broadway? Yes. Is there transformation? That is the question. Because transformation takes time. What we are seeing right now is change and transition.

It is going to take time for Broadway to transform into what we imagine it to be, the utopia of inclusion. With that, I say to everyone, I encourage you, as Ray was saying, to hang in there. Look, I am 60 years old. I could have said no before. I could have stopped. But two years ago, I redefined my vision. And I looked at my life and I said, wow, I want to be able to give to myself what I am so able to give to others in my professional position. And I said, so what do you want? I want to keep acting. Okay. New headshots, new agent and sub tapes. And we're starting the book. So I don't have a, I took off the timeline on it. And then the other thing is say yes. Yes. Builds careers. It builds lives beyond what we have planned.

I said no to so many things because I was afraid and didn't feel worthy. And that would be from my experience. I would say to the next person, say yes. And then the last thing is take ballet class because you're going to need it. I don't care. Take the ballet class. And remember grandma's words. That's right. Do it scared. Yes. That's it. Because that's the thing. Do it scared. Do it scared. I love that. Grandma might've just came up with our title.

[44:44] Gregory Butler: Honey, I'm ready to go. What's grandma's name? Emma Turner.

[44:50] Gennean Scott: All right. We're going to put Dash Emma Turner. We're going to quote her. We're going to give her her props. I love it. I love it. I just want to say to Ray, I've seen you in the peripheral and I just want to give you props. I mean, I see you. Yes. Is what I want to say to you. And I am so honored to be here with you. But by seeing you do what you do, I feel like I'm able to keep doing what I'm doing and do more because you're doing it.

[45:30] Ray Mercer: Yes. And you beat me to it, Gregory. I was going to say the exact same thing, but I feel the exact same way about you. And it's moments like this that I think we all recognize collectively that we're doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing. And this is a perfect example as we conclude that it's when we see each other, you know, it's that acknowledgement that that when affirmation comes, you know, then you can affirm that you are right where you're supposed to be.

[46:00] Gennean Scott: Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. It's so honored to be able to talk to both of you. And I thank you.

[46:08] Gregory Butler: Thank you.

[46:15] Ray Mercer: Thank you for what you're doing, too, for putting life on it. Yes.

[46:21] Gennean Scott: I'm a Black artist. I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me. And I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at BPN dot FM slash BBB so you'll never miss an episode while you're at it. Tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.