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[0:00] Danielle Barlow: Again, like you know, you never know where opportunity comes from. I made my way. I ended up here, right? I ended up in New York working in the Broadway community. That was not, you know, the specific goal. I did not try to go from here to here to there.

[0:17] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I'm your host, Gennean Scott.

[0:42] Gennean Scott: Today I'd like to welcome our guest Danielle Barlow, a theater manager who serves as the director of Stage Directors and Choreographers Foundation here in New York City. Prior to SDCF, Danielle served as the interim associate producer at Woolly Mammoth Theater in Washington, DC. She received her Master of Fine Arts in Theater Management from Yale School of Drama in 2020. During that time there, though, she held several positions. She was an associate director of development and alumni affairs. She was a company manager and a fellow at Steppenwolf Theater Company. Most recently, Danielle was featured as one of American Theater Magazine's 10 rising Black women to watch in theater. Danielle, I'm so excited to have you here today.

[1:40] Danielle Barlow: Thank you, Gennean. I'm really happy and honored to be asked to be here, so thank you.

[1:45] Gennean Scott: Oh my goodness. So I want to go ahead and I want to just I want to jump right in if you're good with that.

[1:52] Danielle Barlow: Please.

[1:53] Gennean Scott: All right. So did you always know that you wanted to work in the business side of theater?

[2:00] Danielle Barlow: I did not. I, like many, grew up in a, um, grew up doing theater. I was in a musical theater troupe from the age of like eight to eighteen. So I would like go around. I grew up in Maryland, I went around the DMV, like dancing, singing, acting, you know, doing musicals at school, doing musicals outside of school. So I was like a very, very strong performer, theater lover. Um, so I grew up in theater, doing theater. Um, but it wasn't until college, really the end of college, that I realized that I could do business and theater together. I went into school as a performer and learned quickly that I, uh, I didn't have the muscle to do the kind of hustle of being a performer. Um, but, uh, so quickly pivoted to directing, but I also was double majoring in business, and I started to realize that there are things that I could do that connected, and I was like, oh, there are jobs that like someone has to make the theater happen, right? And that didn't happen naturally, there weren't classes in school about this, but by the time I got to the end, I realized that there were jobs, like someone had to make the theater run.

[3:18] Danielle Barlow: Um, and I and it piqued my interest in terms of like how I could combine like an interest and a love together. You know what? There are so many people, and even I've been noted saying this on, um, throughout the podcast, had no idea that their arts administration was a career.

[3:37] Gennean Scott: Yep, yep, a hundred percent.

[3:39] Danielle Barlow: And that's part of why we were doing this podcast and highlighting these jobs because so many of us don't know that it's a career. We think, okay, I have a passion for the arts. I was a dancer. I want to dance. I'm going to dance. That's what I'm going to do. And then I guess it's sort of what you said is like, I'm like, I don't have the energy to do this grind. What is interesting is that the shows get on the stage because there are people on the business side who get them there.

[4:12] Danielle Barlow: So there's actually, I've been having a lot of conversations recently about how there is a creativity in our work. People have been asking, you know, you know, uh, are you an artist? Like what I call myself an artist. And I personally, as a manager, um, I would call myself artistic. I would call myself creative. I don't know that I now I do not speak for all managers, all administrators. I consider myself to be artistic and creative, which is why I can have an opinion and feel like I am informed when potentially I am deciding, or in the room when you're deciding artistic endeavors or types of shows that theaters should be doing or how to do them. But I think that there is something that feels, you know, there's art and then there's business, right? But like our art is a business. And I think that there is something, you know, that feels like it's not creative or not artistic about the business side, but I think there's a lot of artistry and creativity in it.

[5:10] Danielle Barlow: So I agree with you 100%. I agree with you 100%. When you there is a finesse to this side, and there's a there's a there's a dance that has to be done with navigating everything, with navigating the creative piece and navigating the managerial and the business side, and I think you have to be you have to know both worlds in order to speak to both. Um so I think you have to be somewhat creative in order to do this arts administration work because it really does take both sides of your brain.

[5:52] Gennean Scott: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, that's right. So, what are like your responsibilities as you know as the foundation's director?

[6:02] Danielle Barlow: Sure. So, yeah, so SDCF, for folks who don't know, um, is the Stage Directors and Choreographers Foundation, which is the nonprofit of the union for stage directors and choreographers. So we're super small, and but our goal is to support stage directors and choreographers throughout their career. So that looks like programming, public programming, we give out awards, um we have a podcast, you know, there's a ton of there's a ton of stuff that we do, and my job as the director is to both vision and execute. So the visioning is there are so many directors and choreographers, both in New York City and throughout the country, and there's a lot more need than there is, you know, resources to give.

And so I have to make decisions about what's the focus, what's our priority right now? It's all a priority, it's all important. We want to support every single director and choreographer across the country if we could, right? But we have limited resources and limited time, and there are a lot of individuals. So part of my job is visioning what our goals are, what are we trying to accomplish, and how what's the best way to do that, and then also executing them. So that whatever we decide we want to do, both myself and the board, then how to actually execute those things through like the kind of specific programming and resources that we provide.

[7:25] Gennean Scott: So one of the programs that you have is the Lloyd Residency Program.

[7:29] Danielle Barlow: Yeah, it's the Lloyd Richards New Futures Residency Program. A lengthy name, but uh named after a really important um director in the American theater, Lloyd Richards. Um, and this program is uh something that uh started in 2020, and it was it sprung out of a big report that SDC and SDCF did called the next stage report, which is super interesting, but it kind of tracks the livelihoods of stage directors and choreographers. And one of the big things that came out of it was um you know, mid-career artists and artists of color are not getting the support that they should be getting, right? You kind of hit a ceiling, and you can't get from smaller stages to larger stages. You can't get continual learning, things like that.

And so, with all of that, the foundation made a commitment to create a residency that would support mid-career artists, directors and choreographers of color, um, to figure out what one of the needs were, right? There's again always a lot of. But so this one specifically focuses on a year-long residency with a director or choreographer of color and an artistic director. Because one of the things that we realize is that there are a ton of artistic director positions opening up across the country, and folks are understanding the inequities that are in who's being represented in those positions, and they're like, we want to bring you on, right? But they're not being set up for success because either they don't have the experience and so they're not getting hired, or they don't have the experience put in the position and could be set up to not succeed because they are not being given the support or any kind of onboarding or opportunity to learn and fail, right?

And so this residency specifically focuses on giving someone an opportunity to spend a year with an artistic director as part of an artistic team to learn about the business, how the institution works, and how to also be creative in the art and how to manage all the priorities of running an organization at the same time so that they can say that they've had some experience and some access to those types of conversations and hard questions and challenges that they can bring into them whenever they're looking into artistic leadership moving forward.

[9:50] Gennean Scott: That's awesome. Throughout your career, you've like held many roles within theater management. You've been a company manager, uh, associate director of development and alumni affairs, and an associate producer. Can you describe the differences between the positions that you've held and why it's so important that you, and I say you, I mean you as a Black woman are there in those roles.

[10:21] Danielle Barlow: Yeah, you know, that's uh I feel like kind of explaining even each of those positions could take me like what I will say is that you know again, I think that there's this idea that it's like they're the performers on the stage and they're directors and their designers, and like what the audience sees is like what's on the stage, and there are like so many positions, like every business, right? You need marketers, you need people to raise money, you know, you need people to manage the artist. Like there's so many different positions that you hold, and I think that they all kind of hit different aspects of like how a business runs. And so one of the things just like the difference between these positions, right?

One supports the artist, one supports the raising of funds so that we can do the work, right? One is about making sure that the work is happening and there's communication between all the different players to make sure that the vision gets up on the stage from page to stage, right? And so it kind of runs the spectrum. And I think that your question about why it's important that I specifically am in those roles, is that you know when we are working with artists that come from a wide variety of backgrounds, very diverse, you know, and and they're like this is the important thing. We want to we want to put it on our stage. It is equally as important that the folks are in all of the rooms that are putting the work on stage are reflected, and uh like you know, racially, gender, ethnicity, you know, like there has to be not homogeny on the back side, even if it looks good on the front side, because it ends up with issues on the back end, right?

That you either do or don't feel as an audience member, but making sure that artists feel comfortable and they feel safe and they feel like they can say the things that they need to say, right? You know, I I was the company manager for uh um a production of Twelfth Night that was predominantly black artists, right? Conversations about hair and like things that you need. And now you should you should be able to talk to anyone about this, right? But in but having me in that role as a black woman made it easier for people to feel comfortable to me to say what they need, to be able to express things maybe in a way that doesn't have to feel so coded. They can just speak truthfully and honestly, and like what a comfort I would think that that would be to someone, right?

And the other thing that I get to do in these positions is I can set standards, I can set protocol, I can set, you know, things so that then the people who are coming behind me, regardless of how they identify, now need to meet that, especially if it's been positive, right? If people are like, oh, we really liked when Dani did blank, then like, then you should also do that, you know, and so that will kind of help being able to be in these different roles in these different positions. I have a power, um, opportunity and responsibility to make sure that whomever I am serving feels seen, feels comfortable, feels respected, and that part of the thing that I do is I put myself, I have put I have chosen to put myself in predominantly white spaces, and I am and part of my role is navigating all of these conversations.

So that my hope and desire is that artists of color are getting access to resources because I have made space to make them comfortable to do so, that I have made space that they are able to have those conversations and everyone is prepared for them. You know, I can't do it all, but that is my goal. That is my that is that is my um uh my purpose for putting myself in those spaces.

[14:03] Gennean Scott: And that audience is why she was named one of the 10 rising black women to watch in theater.

[14:13] Gennean Scott: No, seriously.

[14:14] Gennean Scott: Seriously.

[14:15] Gennean Scott: I mean, you were you were named that.

[14:18] Gennean Scott: You are that.

[14:20] Gennean Scott: But I mean, that passion and what you said about being purpose, being purposeful and putting yourself in spaces where there may be low to no representation. It strikes.

[14:34] Gennean Scott: It strikes a real chord because oh god, the overused thing, you know, to quote Hamilton, you gotta be in the room where it happens, right?

[14:45] Danielle Barlow: Yeah.

[14:46] Gennean Scott: But you also have to be able to stay in that room.

[14:51] Danielle Barlow: That is an art.

[14:53] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[14:54] Danielle Barlow: Yeah, it's not, it's not easy. And I think that, you know, my again, it's like there are a lot of places that have a lot of resources, and my hope and desire is that the folks who deserve should have access to those resources get them. And it's really not the first step is getting the play in the door. The first step is you know, someone saying yes to the opportunity and say, right? And then it's like the then it's like everything that comes after that, right? And everyone in the organization has an impact on what that experience is like for artists, and so being able to, you know, it's one of the reasons why I want to keep putting myself in leadership positions because then I have the um ability, I have the opportunity to, you know, set precedent, make changes, be really thoughtful about how I feel um uh something should go.

And I could be in communication with the artists I feel that should be represented through in these opportunities, and that and that, and there's a there's a strength in that. There's a uh there's a power in that.

[16:04] Gennean Scott: Absolutely, absolutely. So, can you talk about the importance of networking and mentorship and how that has impacted or made an impact, you know, on your career?

[16:21] Danielle Barlow: Sure, absolutely. I mean, it is it is all made a like real direct impact on kind of every part of my career, like since I got out of college. Um, I think that one of the big there are two big things that I would say. One is that um you never know who knows someone, right? And so I think that you all, you know, there's an idea. I think I had an idea of like what I was gonna do with my life, how I was gonna get there, like I had all these plans, and I was like, I'll go from A to B to C, and like that is not what happened, right? In like the most wonderful ways, actually, but a lot of it was because I was doing my work, right? I was I was into my work, and then someone said, Oh, hey, could you come do this thing?

And I was like, Okay, and so someone I knew, and then I go over here, but it's not who I expected. It was not the person that I was working to be, right? But because you, you know, there is always opportunity, even if it's not in the thing that you're expecting that you want to do. There it doesn't hurt to be kind, it doesn't hurt to be nice, and it doesn't hurt to like do your job well, right? Because people take notice of that, and so I think that this idea of you know, when you find yourself in spaces, even if you're not hearing people say, Oh, I'm doing the exact thing that you want to be doing, you never know where an opportunity comes from. So that that's kind of happened throughout my career and kind of in the most specific way that happens often is that I met um the executive director of SDC in grad school and she reached out to me about the opportunity that I'm in now kind of in an in an interim capacity and then I applied to you know hold the position formally but that came from that came from um networking right that came from me following up and saying that like you are someone that I think is smart you're someone that I think um I could continue to learn from and I wasn't looking for a job at the time you know it was just if you run into someone that you think vibes with you it is worth keeping the connection and is before you need something you know and that will and you just never know what com you never know what comes from that so I you know I would just say that the networking piece of it is kind of like you never know who knows whom you know if something is interesting or exciting to you follow it right take the things take time so don't if the first conversation doesn't lead to anything that doesn't mean it's nothing you know I think that all of that is really important and then just in terms of mentorship I think that that um you know it's a tricky thing because I think that sometimes people hope that mentorship will allow them to just get on whatever path that the mentor was on.

I think that you're like ah if I just get the mentor they will tell me exactly how to get to the thing that that you want that is exactly what they have, right? And I think that the beauty of mentorship, um, kind of uh like high level to wherever you are if you're looking up, you know, I think that there is such an opportunity um to learn what they have learned from their experiences that you can take with you, as opposed to necessarily being like then you just apply for this and then you do this thing and then you do this thing. I think there's so much knowledge to be learned from folks who have done things that you're interested in, what they learned, so you can either so you either don't make the same mistakes or you can figure out how to navigate the opportunities.

So I think there is that kind of like up down, if you will, mentorship, and then there's also like peer-to-peer mentorship. When you're going through things together, I I also think there's an opportunity in that as well, and that is something that should be um thought about just as important like it that's just as important as kind of like oh you know, someone who is more experienced than you, that type of mentorship. I think there's value in both.

[20:12] Gennean Scott: You know, you mentioned two things. One not being afraid to say yes to opportunity, and sometimes our fear, you know, it it stands, it stands in the way of us being able to say yes.

[20:25] Danielle Barlow: When you come from a marginalized group, that fear, that fear of instability becomes very real.

[20:35] Danielle Barlow: And the other thing that you mentioned that I'd also like to hit a little bit on is, you know, the networking and things like that. Well, what if you're not in the tri-state area? Or what if you don't, or you feel like you walk into a room and you're like, I don't know anybody. Can you talk a little bit about how one could network?

[20:59] Danielle Barlow: I will say that I went to a college where everyone after college, almost, almost, who worked who was in theater went to New York. I'm from Maryland. I did not go to New York. I was not ready to go to New York; I didn't know what I wanted to do. I will be completely honest, I don't know that I expected to be here, right? Like I was interested in theater kind of period, right? Not necessarily New York specific theater. And so I did my work in DC. And I think that, you know, I'll just say kind of generally, you again, like, you know, you never know where opportunity comes from. I made my way, I ended up here, right? I ended up in New York working in the Broadway community. That was not, you know, the specific goal.

I did not try to go from here to here to there, right? But because I was in DC doing my work, the theater community, it feels vast because it expands, it covers the whole country internationally, but it is actually quite small, right? Like at the end of the day, so many people know people. And so doing my work well in DC is what got me here, right? And so I think that the networking, you know, if you don't know anyone, there is, you know, I've been thinking a lot about curiosity, be curious, right? If you meet someone, just be if they're saying something that's interesting, be curious, right? Like, just I think it takes that like first step to walk up to someone and say, hi, you know, like I'm here at the I've either been invited to this event, I've decided to come to this event.

If you had that idea, other people had that idea, so they are there for the same purpose as you are. You know, I think that again, when you run into people that you think are interesting, try to keep in touch with them, right? Even if you don't have a ton to share, every six months, once a year, just check in. You never know, you know, and again, like I spent a majority of my career up to, you know, up to grad school in DC. So I was not in the tri-state area, but I had I was making connections and I was working in the theater in DC, and that led me to get connected and suggested that I apply to grad school that connected me to, you know, so these things come in ways that you may not imagine.

No path is linear, and I think especially today, the way that theater's even being everything is getting kind of like upended, rewritten, changed, and so this idea of being like we all do A, then we all do B, then we all do C is just like not the it's it's not how how it really works anymore, right? There are certain things that'll continue to be true, going to grad school, working in specific offices, like those things will continue to be true, and there are so many other ways to get access. I think the way that the internet works, right? Like there are so many things that connect us, you know, across the country and the world that you don't have to be only in New York to be in New York. You can there are many ways to get yourself there over time in your career, and you have lots of time, right?

Lots of time, and you don't even have to be in a large metropolitan city, you know. Yeah, I mean, we cannot overlook regional theater. I came from Omaha, Nebraska. I mean, we are we're a pack, we're a performing arts center, but we can't overlook, you know, these regional theaters and the work that is being done across the globe, really. Absolutely.

[24:35] Gennean Scott: Can you talk a little bit, you've mentioned grad school a couple of times. Can you talk a little bit about the importance and what skills or training that you learned from grad school that's helped you to advance your career?

[24:51] Danielle Barlow: Yeah, so you know, I think one of the things that is tricky these days is that there are not a lot, you know, there's not a lot of opportunities to try and fail. And one of the biggest gifts that grad school gave me was the ability to try and, you know, fit, you know. Am I gonna say I failed over and over again? Not necessarily, but like I had the ability to try and kind of see where it landed, what worked, what didn't, in the way that I manage, in the way that I operate, in the way that I, you know, how I want to do my work, you know, how I want to lead, how I want to be a manager. And so, you know, I found myself interested in going to grad school because you do not have to go to grad school, right?

You don't have to go to grad school for a career. But I went to grad school because I was sitting at my desk, kind of like ready to think about like the bigger problems of the theater, and I wanted to kind of just like level up, like I wanted to jump from an entry-level position to a leadership position, and I knew that grad school could help me do that quickly, you know, and so what Yale did specifically was allowed me to learn a bunch in the classroom, but then we had these professional work assignments, which is how I was the company manager, which is how I was the associate director, you know, of development, and I was able to try things. So the things that I was learning in school about leadership and management, I then got to implement them in a space that had real stakes because Yale Repertory Theater is a very real regional theater.

And at the end of the day, I was also a student. So I had some fail safes in there, right? Like I had some opportunities to try things and learn and grow. So then by the time I was coming out of school, I felt pretty confident in myself as a manager, right? Myself as a leader, and so and I will be a lifelong learner. I am not like I learned everything in three years, I got no problems. But like I think that I the biggest skills and takeaways from school were being able to develop my, you know, in the same way that artists do develop my craft, like how I want to be, and I had opportunities to try things and be like, oh, that doesn't work. Okay, like here's why that's tricky, and then by the time I got out, I felt comfortable being like, here are the things that I'm well equipped to do, um, and kind of in whatever position I find myself in.

[27:12] Gennean Scott: Oh, it's which is okay. Yeah, that you know what there are as you're telling as you're saying this, and you're telling I'm thinking of several individuals that I know that have come out of school undergrad and are still trying to find themselves. And I'm like, have you looked at grad school? It gives you an extension and it gives you that opportunity of exactly what you said. You get to try with the safety net.

[27:44] Danielle Barlow: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think that, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have heard this, which is like if you could do anything other than theater, you should do that because it's so hard and it's so that like we all hear that, right? And I'm like, and so that opportunity made me go, you're gonna spend three years just doing theater. And so if by the end of that you decide that's not what you want to do, like you'll learn pretty quickly if this is what you want. And by the end, I was like, nope, this is this is what I want, you know, and that's really helpful. So that kind of like developing and learning about yourself and how you want to move in the industry and what you think your kind of like goals are really crystallize themselves throughout those, you know, grad school is one way in which to do that.

[28:28] Gennean Scott: Absolutely. So my final question, and it's the last question we ask all of our guests. It is what one piece of advice would you like to share with the black future leaders of Broadway?

[28:35] Danielle Barlow: One piece of advice. I think I would say, you know, um be curious, be like always be a student. I think that, um, you know, put yourself in spaces where you want to be until you are like, I can't be, or I need to make my own space. There are so many ways to get um in to and be a part of the Broadway community. I think that when you find what you are passionate about, like go for it, be curious about all aspects of how that thing works, because that is going to give you the best chance of finding yourself where you want to be, where you need to be, where you're gonna have the most impact. So I think that this, I, you know, the curiosity is really important, and I think that staying true to yourself, so again, be in the spaces that you feel you need to be in, but also know when to tap out and say, this is not where I need to be, I gotta be over here, I gotta be over there, and just allow yourself to, you can always learn. Like, there's always so much to learn, and it, you know, it's lifelong. So um, just be curious.

[29:50] Gennean Scott: 100% agree. 100% agree. I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at bpn.fm slash bvb so you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.