This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:07] Bret Shuford: What's up, y'all? Welcome to episode two of the Broadway Husbands Podcast.

[0:11] Stephen Hanna: I'm Stephen Hanna.

[0:12] Bret Shuford: And we are the Broadway Husbands.

[0:17] Stephen Hanna: Woo! We are just your all-American married couple making their living in the arts and pursuing a growing family.

[0:24] Bret Shuford: On the Broadway Husbands Podcast, we offer advice from our ordinary lives under extraordinary circumstances.

[0:31] Stephen Hanna: We are living proof that you can love who you love and love what you do.

[0:36] Bret Shuford: Make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss our weekly episodes.

[0:40] Stephen Hanna: And if you really love us, make sure you leave a review on whatever podcast network you listen to.

[0:46] Bret Shuford: Take a screenshot and tag us on Instagram at Broadway Husbands.

[0:49] Stephen Hanna: At Broadway Husbands. Woo!

[0:51] Bret Shuford: And just a proud note to say that we are very, very proud to be members of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:59] Stephen Hanna: That's right. VPN has all kinds of amazing podcasts for you to listen to, including us.

[1:04] Bret Shuford: Hey. The goal of today is that we're gonna tell you guys our coming out stories.

[1:18] Stephen Hanna: Ooh, but first, when we do you're gay.

[1:21] Bret Shuford: Wait, you're gay?

[1:22] Stephen Hanna: Just that last night.

[1:24] Bret Shuford: Oh, just last night.

[1:27] Stephen Hanna: After 12 years of being together just last night.

[1:32] Bret Shuford: Yeah, we just came out to each other 12 years after being married to each other.

[1:35] Stephen Hanna: Um so today we're uh actually want to give you a little bit of an update.

[1:41] Bret Shuford: If you haven't subscribed to us on YouTube, we've had we've been making YouTube videos for a long time, and you can check us out there.

[1:48] Stephen Hanna: In fact, some of the videos from our podcast will be on there as well as we continue to roll these out.

[1:54] Bret Shuford: Um, but we've also been vlogging for a while now about our journey to become fathers with an organization called Gays With Kids.

[2:04] Stephen Hanna: So if you don't know gayswithkids.com, you can check out some of our vlogging on there.

[2:10] Bret Shuford: Um, but we are excited because we had to take a little bit of a pause from a hiatus baby journey.

[2:17] Stephen Hanna: And we are now actually back on the bus, and we're gonna be uh telling you guys more about that and what that journey is like for us.

[2:25] Bret Shuford: We're choosing surrogacy, so you'll learn a little bit a little bit about what that is in another episode.

[2:31] Stephen Hanna: Um, but we're excited to sort of update you guys about that.

[2:35] Bret Shuford: And I just got a new job.

[2:37] Stephen Hanna: I'm going What?

[2:38] Bret Shuford: Yes, yay.

[2:39] Stephen Hanna: What is it?

[2:40] Bret Shuford: As of the time this uh recording is live, I will be in the Broadway company of Wicked.

[2:46] Stephen Hanna: What?

[2:47] Bret Shuford: Yes, that's so cool.

[2:49] Stephen Hanna: Congratulations.

[2:50] Bret Shuford: Oh, thanks, Stephen.

[2:53] Stephen Hanna: And I'm so excited.

[2:55] Bret Shuford: And then we're also gonna tell you guys a little in another episode about our sabbatical we took from New York City last year when we moved to Charleston, South Carolina.

[3:03] Stephen Hanna: That's right. We were in Charleston all last year, and we will definitely be talking about that and letting you know how great of a place Charleston is and what our experience was living in the South.

[3:13] Bret Shuford: And why we came back.

[3:17] Stephen Hanna: Brett was like a southern soldier who took me past the Mason Dixon.

[3:22] Bret Shuford: And I thought I wasn't gonna come back, but I just had to come back up north.

[3:26] Stephen Hanna: All right.

[3:27] Bret Shuford: Steven loved that joke when we moved down there because that's the funniest thing ever.

[3:31] Stephen Hanna: He's from Pittsburgh, and he would tell everybody he's just a southern soldier that came up here and took me back down.

[3:37] Bret Shuford: But now this Yankee took me back up that's above.

[3:41] Stephen Hanna: So here we are. We're back in New York and we're doing episode two.

[3:44] Bret Shuford: And now our segment we call Spotlight on Love.

[3:50] Stephen Hanna: All right. So here's a question. We got from one of our followers on Instagram.

[3:55] Bret Shuford: Here it goes.

[3:57] Stephen Hanna: I don't have a gaydar.

[3:59] Bret Shuford: Steven, what's a gaydar?

[4:00] Stephen Hanna: A gaydar is something, a sense inside of you that goes off when you are next to somebody or close to somebody, and you can tell whether or not they are gay.

[4:12] Bret Shuford: So as I get closer to Brett, as I scooch closer to him and goes, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, yours is really loud.

[4:24] Stephen Hanna: Oh, really?

[4:25] Bret Shuford: No, actually, mine isn't that loud. I think I have terrible gaydar.

[4:28] Stephen Hanna: But that's what it is, right? Just in like a total side note.

[4:33] Bret Shuford: So that so our follower wrote that I don't have a gaydar.

[4:37] Stephen Hanna: I've never had a good one, anyway.

[4:40] Bret Shuford: But Steven's clearly is uh on par with that.

[4:44] Stephen Hanna: And there is this really cute guy who comes through my check stand.

[4:49] Bret Shuford: Now, he comes through our the guy who wrote this check stand on the weekend.

[4:55] Stephen Hanna: We don't know what a check stand is.

[4:56] Bret Shuford: We don't understand what that is.

[4:58] Stephen Hanna: But um Yeah, we were reading it, and I was like, I don't know. We're just gonna keep going.

[5:02] Bret Shuford: Yeah, we talk, but our conversations never go long or deep because once I'm done ringing up his order, I have to move on to the next one.

[5:09] Stephen Hanna: So number one, how do I find out if he's even gay?

[5:13] Bret Shuford: I don't just want to full out ask and embarrass myself.

[5:16] Stephen Hanna: And number two, how do I know if he's interested?

[5:20] Bret Shuford: Well, my experienced unexpert advice would be my first instinct was to um, you know, for some reason I think that it's a coffee stand and not a check stand.

[5:36] Stephen Hanna: So I think that this person, you probably know their first name, and you can probably sort of um look them up slash stalk them on social media and figure out who they are that way.

[5:50] Bret Shuford: And then also I think I don't know if that's great advice, but that's literally where my brain goes.

[5:55] Stephen Hanna: And then that's what you would have done.

[5:57] Bret Shuford: Yeah.

[5:58] Stephen Hanna: And then I think you can also tell by the way somebody looks you in the eyes.

[6:01] Bret Shuford: Like, are they looking at you like they want something from you?

[6:06] Stephen Hanna: Like a little bit sexual, or are they looking at you like they just want your attention because they're they just want your attention and they're friendly, right?

[6:16] Bret Shuford: Yeah.

[6:17] Stephen Hanna: Is that is that weird?

[6:18] Bret Shuford: Yeah, I think you would know if somebody was interested because they'd flirt.

[6:22] Stephen Hanna: Yeah, right.

[6:22] Bret Shuford: Is he flirting because he's nice, or is he just talking to you, or maybe you're yeah.

[6:27] Stephen Hanna: My big suggestion is like, why don't you just like hang out with them and be friends?

[6:32] Bret Shuford: Why does it have to be romantic?

[6:34] Stephen Hanna: Why does it why does it matter if he's gay or not?

[6:36] Bret Shuford: What if if you you're feeling a pull towards him?

[6:38] Stephen Hanna: Why don't you just say, hey, let's have coffee?

[6:40] Bret Shuford: I'd love to just you seem cool.

[6:42] Stephen Hanna: Because that's sort of what happened with Brett and I.

[6:44] Bret Shuford: I mean, I wasn't gay before, and no one's scared.

[6:47] Stephen Hanna: Oh, please.

[6:48] Bret Shuford: No, no.

[6:50] Stephen Hanna: And that'll lead us into what what?

[6:54] Bret Shuford: What?

[6:55] Stephen Hanna: No. What do you think lead us into what?

[6:57] Bret Shuford: Well, no, we have well, we're not done with this.

[7:00] Stephen Hanna: Okay.

[7:01] Bret Shuford: We've got to finish talking to our listener.

[7:02] Stephen Hanna: So I my to Steven's advice is stalk him on on Instagram or Facebook.

[7:07] Bret Shuford: Not stock, but just look into it and it'll be very clear very quickly.

[7:12] Stephen Hanna: The instant, you know, instantly you see the well we also don't know how old he is.

[7:15] Bret Shuford: I mean he could be like a teenager or something.

[7:18] Stephen Hanna: And then my advice is why don't you just make friends?

[7:21] Bret Shuford: Yeah.

[7:21] Stephen Hanna: And then see what happens.

[7:23] Bret Shuford: Yeah.

[7:23] Stephen Hanna: It doesn't need to be so serious.

[7:25] Bret Shuford: And maybe it's just fun to just have somebody that you look forward to like getting a cup of coffee, and you're like, ah, he's really cute.

[7:32] Stephen Hanna: And maybe it's just that.

[7:34] Bret Shuford: I love that you do you went from a check stand to a coffee.

[7:37] Stephen Hanna: Like, well, because what's a checkstand?

[7:40] Bret Shuford: I don't know what that is.

[7:42] Stephen Hanna: Okay.

[7:45] Bret Shuford: Anyway, so if you want relationship advice and dating advice from our completely unqualified unexpert selves, but we're very experienced.

[7:54] Stephen Hanna: You want me to tell you what a check stand is?

[7:56] Bret Shuford: Yeah, what's a check stand?

[7:57] Stephen Hanna: Okay, so I googled it and it says a business or place where a podcaster ser podcaster a business or place where a product or service can be purchased, also called point of purchase.

[8:12] Bret Shuford: Got it.

[8:12] Stephen Hanna: But it's very vague.

[8:15] Bret Shuford: So he could be checking his check.

[8:17] Stephen Hanna: Is your is your listener like British?

[8:19] Bret Shuford: It sounds like a British thing to say.

[8:21] Stephen Hanna: I don't think he's American.

[8:23] Bret Shuford: Maybe they're not American.

[8:24] Stephen Hanna: Okay.

[8:25] Bret Shuford: Or all right.

[8:25] Stephen Hanna: Well, it's the same thing.

[8:30] Bret Shuford: Check coffee.

[8:30] Stephen Hanna: A check stand is where someone goes to check things out.

[8:34] Bret Shuford: Got it.

[8:34] Stephen Hanna: And it sounds like he's it sounds like you're checking his out.

[8:40] Bret Shuford: All right.

[8:40] Stephen Hanna: Well, if you want relationship and dating advice from our completely unexpert selves, DM us on Instagram at Broadway Husbands, or email us.

[8:47] Bret Shuford: Steven, I can't read that.

[8:49] Stephen Hanna: Oh, uh, or email us on BroadwayHusbands.com, and we just might choose your question for the next episode.

[8:55] Bret Shuford: Awesome. To guarantee you receive our advice.

[8:57] Stephen Hanna: Consider becoming a patron on Patreon.

[8:59] Bret Shuford: And you can join us live to ask your questions.

[9:02] Stephen Hanna: All right. On today's episode, we are going to tell you our coming out stories.

[9:10] Bret Shuford: So, as you've heard, we're called the Broadway husbands, so that means we are gay.

[9:15] Stephen Hanna: And um, there was I don't know if there was like a particular moment in my life that I really knew I was gay.

[9:23] Bret Shuford: Um let's so let's kind of go through like let's just start with our earliest gayest memory.

[9:23] Stephen Hanna: Earliest gayest memory.

[9:30] Bret Shuford: Which I mean earliest gayest memory.

[9:32] Stephen Hanna: Well, like, what does that mean?

[9:33] Bret Shuford: Does that mean like when's the moment you were like, ooh, he's cute. I like that.

[9:37] Stephen Hanna: Um I mean, oh I definitely can remember.

[9:46] Bret Shuford: I don't know. I'm sure I can remember.

[9:49] Stephen Hanna: We were doing Gypsy at the Port Arthur Little Theater in Port Arthur, Texas, and the boy playing Tulsa, right?

[9:59] Bret Shuford: I just was like infatuated. I was like eight.

[10:04] Stephen Hanna: And I would just stare at him and follow him around like a puppy dog.

[10:07] Bret Shuford: And he I I mean it must have been pretty obvious at that point.

[10:12] Stephen Hanna: This little boy is like following Tulsa around.

[10:15] Bret Shuford: Know what I mean?

[10:16] Stephen Hanna: Yes, I do.

[10:17] Bret Shuford: Do you have a memory like that?

[10:18] Stephen Hanna: I don't have a memory of like that kind of thing when I was younger, but I have a memories, or I have memories of um different like actors, you know.

[10:28] Bret Shuford: Like I was like obsessed with David Charvet from Baywatch.

[10:34] Stephen Hanna: Like, yes, I'm definitely gay.

[10:38] Bret Shuford: Cause I, yes, gay.

[10:40] Stephen Hanna: I just want to be like in a red bathing suit next to him.

[10:45] Bret Shuford: Um you know, and I was there was a bunch of people on Melrose Place that I was like totally obsessed with.

[10:54] Stephen Hanna: Um in real life, though, I I think it was a little trickier.

[10:59] Bret Shuford: I mean, like when you got older, when did you actually start to like come to terms with it?

[11:04] Stephen Hanna: When's the first time you told somebody?

[11:06] Bret Shuford: I think the first time I told somebody I was 15 years old, I told my friend Jen Porteus.

[11:13] Stephen Hanna: Um, because I I had a crush on two people.

[11:18] Bret Shuford: I at the time I was dancing at the School of American Ballet, and I used to go to see the ballet every single night because I wanted to be a ballet dancer.

[11:25] Stephen Hanna: And um, so there were two dancers in particular that I had like huge crushes on, and I told my friend Jen Porteus that I thought I was gay because I liked this or had a crush on somebody who I didn't know that I saw from afar.

[11:42] Bret Shuford: Um, and that was the first time I ever old were you again?

[11:45] Stephen Hanna: Like 15.

[11:46] Bret Shuford: 15.

[11:47] Stephen Hanna: And um, and then quickly after that, I went back in the closet.

[11:52] Bret Shuford: Um, you know, so that was kind of like my story.

[11:55] Stephen Hanna: Like I would come out and then I would kind of go back in.

[11:58] Bret Shuford: But why would you go back in?

[12:00] Stephen Hanna: Because I I guess like shame, embarrassment.

[12:04] Bret Shuford: It's really interesting because I grew up in an environment where you'd think that it would be pretty um accepted, but I just really didn't feel comfortable at all, like with it.

[12:17] Stephen Hanna: So I just went back in, dated girls, pretended like I didn't say that and didn't happen.

[12:23] Bret Shuford: And I did a similar thing where I I remember I was 13, I told my mom, I think I liked boys, and she said, You're too young to know.

[12:33] Stephen Hanna: You need to go to church, you need to pray about it.

[12:35] Bret Shuford: And yeah, crazy.

[12:38] Stephen Hanna: And so I was like, Oh, okay, I guess I'm too young to know, even though 13 is like when you know a lot of things, and um no matter who you are.

[12:49] Bret Shuford: And um so I went so I did the same similar thing where I kind of went back in, I talked to people about it, and I was so unhappy because everyone was so horrible to me, like you know, the church, and it was just in the south, you know.

[13:03] Bret Shuford: So I went back in the closet and I dated girls, quote unquote dated girls, meaning we drove around and listened to Les Mis in the car, and like maybe I'd feel a boo, but like that was it.

[13:18] Stephen Hanna: Yeah, but then when did you actually like accept it?

[13:22] Bret Shuford: Hmm, when did I accept it? I think I accepted it probably when I was not until I was like 21.

[13:31] Stephen Hanna: It's so crazy to me.

[13:33] Bret Shuford: So weird. I mean, I think in the ballet world, like in the ballet world. I've lived in New York since I was 12. I just never felt um like I thought that it would, I think it I don't know. I just didn't feel comfortable. I don't know if it was with myself or if it was just I didn't want people to know, and I was a f I think that I always felt like if I said that I was gay, people would always say, Oh, he's that gay guy. And I never wanted to be known as that. I wanted to be a good one.

[14:07] Stephen Hanna: Because you're the only gay guy in the ballet.

[14:09] Bret Shuford: No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. But I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I always felt like once people came out or identified as gay, you know, I just always thought like that's then that's all they were about. And like I wanted to be about everything. Like I didn't want to just be about like, oh, I'm gay, and like now I'm just gonna talk about this. So I think I don't I'm not saying it was a good thing, but I just think that I I just wasn't comfortable. It took me a long time to be comfortable. I was afraid of people judging me. I was afraid of what my parents would say. Um, so I you know, I kept it from them and lied, you know.

[14:48] Stephen Hanna: I mean, I feel like you're pretty lucky though, because you weren't living with them, so you didn't have to tell them.

[14:54] Bret Shuford: It was easy for me not to tell them, so I didn't. Because I had this struggle where I was living with them, and my brothers had three brothers who all like were so straight and football players and baseball players, and the pressure was on, you know, to be what they were, and I was not interested in any of the things, literally any of the things they were interested in. And I remember just the pressure I would feel to try to normalize myself, and so I was, you know, quote unquote back in the closet, but then I would like I got on the thespian state board and I was doing drama club and I was doing choir. I mean, come on, and I was doing dance competitions. I mean, hello. And and yet I was trying to like, oh yeah, I'm just like a creative type guy, whatever.

But then when I would go to those places, I would go to those like conventions or the camps or whatever, there would be other gay people there, and I would be so excited to actually be able to be myself for just like two days before I'd have to go back to Orange, Texas, and be like this thing that I wasn't. And it was horrible. I mean, it was like for four years I had to pretend I was something I wasn't.

[16:08] Bret Shuford: And I just remember like there was this moment in my senior year of high school where I was playing Joseph in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat at the Beaumont Community Players, and I was very proud to be the lead. And there was a guy in the cast who was in college, and he was clearly openly gay. And this is 1997, six. And um, and he would listen to he had all the cast recordings of everything. I remember I loved that. I thought it was so cool. He had the London cast recording of Children of Eden, and I love Children of Eden, and he had like all these different cast recordings, and we would listen to you know, we'd compare the different London casts to the Broadway casts, and he would it was so silly.

And my mom saw me hanging out with this guy, and she came up to me and she said, you know, in my room one day, and she was like, My senior of high school, what's going on with you and this gay thing? And I was like, Oh, I'm pretty sure I am. I just had come to terms with whatever, I didn't care anymore. And she started crying, and she said, Oh, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. This is worse than when my father died.

[17:30] Stephen Hanna: Oh my goodness.

[17:31] Bret Shuford: Oh my god. And I was 17, and I I don't know where I had the wherewithal to say this, but I was like, this is nothing to do with you.

[17:40] Stephen Hanna: You said that?

[17:41] Bret Shuford: Yeah.

[17:41] Stephen Hanna: Oh wow.

[17:42] Bret Shuford: She's like crying in front of me. I said, This has nothing to do with you. This is March of my senior year of high school. And I had booked my first professional gig at Galveston Island outdoor musicals. And there's like several people that I worked with that summer who I'm still friends with who are still in the community. And I remember I just could not wait to get to that moment where I was like gonna go and like do what I was supposed to be doing my whole life. And my I didn't really talk to my mom like those last like two months before uh I graduated, and then the night of graduation, I drove to Galveston and started rehearsals at this thing. And I remember there was a guy there, he was the music director who's since passed, and he was like a mentor of mine that summer, and I remember talking to him about my family and how upset I was.

I wasn't really talking to them, and we'd all been very close. And this is the best advice he ever gave me is this is for all you guys listening. He said, you know, when you come out, and if you care about the people you come out to, it becomes your responsibility to educate them. And he said, Your parents just don't know anything. It's called ignorance, and you need to help educate them so they have an uh a choice. And he recommended a book, which we'll put in the show notes. It's called The Family Heart. And I read this book and I called my mom. I said, if I send you this book, will you read it? I sent it to her, she read it. She called me and she said, crying. She's like, I never understood that it wasn't a choice.

Like, I and she just all of a sudden got it. I mean, there's been a lot of growth that's had behind that as you know, had to happen since. But that was a huge deal for me because they were I was you know, I'm so close to my family.

[19:30] Stephen Hanna: Yeah. Um but the coming out story was like really rough at that time. And I feel like you're in in one way you're really lucky because you weren't kind of subjected to that pressure, but you had this other pressure.

[19:43] Bret Shuford: Well, yeah, I mean I wasn't subjected to that pressure, but I had some sort of internal pressure, and I think it manifested its way into other issues in my life, but um, you know, I just never felt comfortable. And then I finally told my brother, I think when I was like 20 or 21, and then I know that we both told my dad together. Um, and then my dad said, Well, we can't tell your mother, don't worry, we won't tell her. And so we never told my mom for the longest time. So, and then I was like pretty open with most everyone except my mom, and then um I was like 23. I was going through a lot of um emotional problems at the time, and I called my mom because I was upset about something, um, and I was crying, and uh she said to me, you know, Steven, I think everything would just be better for you if you just got a girlfriend.

[20:39] Bret Shuford: And I kind of flipped out and I said, Mom, I have a boyfriend, I'm gay. Um I didn't say it even that nicely. I think I said it with a little bit more bite. Um, and we then didn't talk for about two months. Um, and then eventually we started talking, and it was a similar thing. She didn't, and it wasn't that my mom didn't understand. She was in, I think, uh a huge denial, and I think that uh her perspective is that it was all her fault. Like being gay is is wrong. Um, so you know, that's taken a long time, obviously, to get over. Um, but my brother is a social worker, so he quickly bought her um books. I don't know the titles of them. I will have to ask him. Um, and so she read them, and you know, we got through it and we got over it, and you know, and now they're very loving, and they've always been loving, um, be very accepting, and they've always been accepting of Bret and I's relationship.

But you know, it's interesting. I think that most people I think I don't know, it was like I felt like my whole thing I couldn't come out be for myself. Like I was just not it was really weird. I think it's like I I don't know. I was like, I then I'm gonna be known for that, or like I I don't know what's that.

[21:57] Bret Shuford: Well, that's the thing when you're that young, that's what people do. Yeah, you know, be it's so hard to be young and know who you are and know what you want to do.

[22:09] Stephen Hanna: Right. I mean, that was the thing I always ran against was people would be like, you wouldn't take me seriously, or when I said no, this is what I want to do. And and I think it's really hard. I I can't imagine I think a lot of people say it's wanna say it's so much easier, and yeah, it it's easier for people now because there's an open dialogue about being gay in the public forum. Right. But I don't know that like internally, like even if I grew up today, then it would be it would have been different because the shame is is still there. It's still I guess it depends on where and who you're around all the time. But but culturally, I think our culture teaches us to feel ashamed. I think it's uh it's a collective thing that is just a slow process. It's just a slow process.

[22:52] Bret Shuford: Yeah, for sure. But that's one of the reasons why we wanted to start this podcast and start doing what we're doing is to sort of help eliminate a lot of that shame because we get it.

[23:01] Stephen Hanna: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it took me a long time to come to terms with it. And then it took me a a while to tell people and then it took them a while to get over it and and accept me. And yeah, I think you have to really be cautious of who you talk to and have who you trust. And but I think it's important that the only way I believe the only way shame is eliminated is by putting voice to it. So finding someone you trust, finding somewhere to go to talk to that was super powerful for me.

[23:30] Bret Shuford: Yeah, I think that I think that the reason why I had such a hard time was with it was because I didn't talk to people. I all I wanted to do was um dance and and I did at the time and I was fortunate enough that like my life allowed me to kind of not talk and I not I didn't talk for you know many many hours a day and I worked and I was able to kind of push everything to the side until I wasn't um so I think that that was like part of why it was so hard for me I wasn't able to talk about it and then I turned to other things that you know weren't maybe a healthy choice. Maybe but we'll get into that maybe some other day.

[24:17] Stephen Hanna: Find a community find a community go to a therapist if you're able to see a therapist um, you know but I but it is important that if you if you are in a safe place where you're not risking yourself or anybody else to be open about it because I think it's important that the only way we're going to dispel the collective conscious of shame that exists and sort of permeates our culture is by openly speaking up and supporting other people who are in our community. And just know that your voice matters.

[24:49] Bret Shuford: I think that that's part of always my issue is that I just feel like my voice doesn't really matter. I think that's something that always goes on in my head. Like, uh, I don't really have anything important to say. People don't really want to hear from me. But you know, I mean, whether or not they do, I I don't know if they do or not. But you know, it it get out there, talk to people, create a community, find the people who will accept you. And um your voice matters.

[25:13] Stephen Hanna: Your does it? It matters to me.

[25:16] Bret Shuford: Well, thank you.

[25:17] Stephen Hanna: Yeah, I love you.

[25:18] Bret Shuford: I'm just saying, you know, those are the demons inside my head a lot of the time. So I get it.

[25:25] Stephen Hanna: Well, so that's our episode for today. If you like this, make sure you subscribe and go out there. Love who you love and love what you do.

[25:37] Bret Shuford: Bye.