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[0:00] Jess McEnally: Hey guys, we're gonna get you right to the show real quick, but I gotta make a quick announcement here.

[0:04] Jess McEnally: In this podcast, I make a false statement.

[0:07] Jess McEnally: Not only a false statement made, but the same false statement made numerous times over and over.

[0:14] Jess McEnally: I know the guy that gets things wrong all the time got something wrong again.

[0:18] Jess McEnally: But I wanna thank Kyle Summers on our Patreon for pointing it out to us and letting me get ahead of this before all of you start getting the cross in the nails, you know.

[0:29] Jess McEnally: Now the statement I said, which is completely untrue, is that Holy Musical Batman followed Twisted, which is a hundred percent an untrue fact.

[0:40] Jess McEnally: It is in fact incorrect.

[0:42] Jess McEnally: There is in fact a full musical in between Holy Musical Batman and Twisted with the Harry Potter Senior Year Star Kid show.

[0:49] Jess McEnally: So that is just an incorrect statement, and I make it very often.

[0:53] Jess McEnally: However, I still believe the sentiment is true, and I felt the same way, except I felt it in comparison to Starship in a very potter sequel, where Holy Musical Batman still feels like a significant step down from those two.

[1:06] Jess McEnally: So the point stands, but um I said it by comparing it to the wrong thing.

[1:11] Jess McEnally: So I am ready to step onto the pyre and be burnt if that is what is called for.

[1:17] Jess McEnally: And please feel free to call me a doo-doo poo-poo head all over Twitter because I deserve it.

[1:24] Jess McEnally: But aside from that, um Andrew and Ethan have great things to say, so why don't you listen to them?

[1:28] Jess McEnally: Alright, let's get on to the show.

[1:35] Jess McEnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McEnaly.

[1:38] Andrew: And I'm a Batman.

[1:40] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones because I saw that it was written in the notes that I should say that.

[1:46] Jess McEnally: And welcome to Musicals of Cheese, a podcast where I tried to get Andrew and Bree to like musical features.

[1:50] Andrew: Who's Andrew?

[1:51] Andrew: I'm Batman.

[1:52] Jess McEnally: And today we have a wonderful returning special guest who I am very happy to bring back.

[1:58] Ethan: Hi everyone!

[1:59] Jess McEnally: It's Robin, everybody!

[2:02] Andrew: Hi, Robin.

[2:04] Ethan: Hi, Robin I'm dad.

[2:06] Jess McEnally: Um, but no, we have Ethan from Sideways back again in probably the fastest turnaround we've ever had for a guest, because you were just here in like March.

[2:13] Ethan: Oh, I love talking about music and musicals. This is this is my shit.

[2:17] Jess McEnally: We're so happy to have you here. It's wonderful.

[2:19] Jess McEnally: And our Rosewater episode is probably one of our top best episodes ever.

[2:23] Ethan: It was fun.

[2:24] Jess McEnally: It's a good musical.

[2:26] Ethan: It is it is totally I said it before, I'll say it again. It is a diamond in the rough. More people need to see it.

[2:31] Jess McEnally: Absolutely. Um, is that what we're talking about today, though, Ethan?

[2:34] Ethan: Absolutely not. Today we're talking about a Magnum Opus, one of the greatest musicals written in a contemporary age. A beautiful work of pristine art.

[2:44] Ethan: We are talking, of course, about the musical Batman.

[2:49] Ethan: Batman.

[2:54] Ethan: And these catching those crooks with his grapple and books. He's here to save the day. Makes me for save.

[3:04] Ethan: Holy Musical Batman.

[3:11] Ethan: Holy musical Batman.

[3:18] Ethan: Holy Musical Batman is a musical with music and lyrics by Nick Gage and Scott Lamps, and a book by Matt Lang and Nick Lang.

[3:25] Ethan: Holy Musical Batman is a parody musical based on DC Universe's Batman comic books, as well as the 1989 film and 2008's The Dark Knight.

[3:34] Ethan: The name Holy Musical Batman is a reference to the 1960s television series Batman with Adam West and Burt Ward.

[3:40] Ethan: Robin would often make that pun. Like, we all know that. It wasn't funny, but it wasn't funny even back then.

[3:47] Ethan: But really, this musical is about Bruce Wayne, who really just wants to find a friend and wants to find super friends.

[3:54] Ethan: The musical was performed on March 22nd to 25th, 2012, at the Hoover Leppin Theater in Chicago, Illinois.

[4:01] Ethan: It was produced by Starkid Productions and directed by Matt Lang.

[4:04] Ethan: The musical stars an ensemble cast featuring Joe Walker as the Batman and Nick Lang as his sidekick Robin.

[4:11] Ethan: The group put on the entire musical on YouTube um in around April 13th of 2012.

[4:16] Ethan: So think about it like that. This is a pre-Avengers world that this was made in.

[4:17] Ethan: This is a pre-Dark Knight Rises world that this was made in. Pre-Justice League 2. Pre LEGO Batman, pre-Harley Quinn series.

[4:29] Jess McEnally: So that is the world we're living in with this.

[4:32] Ethan: Man, if they had just waited, this could have been even better.

[4:36] Jess McEnally: Yes.

[4:37] Ethan: If they had just waited the satire you could have done on the DC universe. Man.

[4:45] Jess McEnally: Yeah. It rings a little hollow before like all of this, because now we actually have a full-on Batman v Superman.

[4:54] Ethan: That isn't very good, but it feels like I mean, it feels like there's a lot of potential for spoofing that this doesn't do because of the time it came out.

[5:05] Jess McEnally: And that's not its fault. I would have loved to see a Martha joke in this musical.

[5:10] Ethan: It would have been perfect.

[5:11] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[5:12] Ethan: There could have been a whole Martha musical number.

[5:13] Jess McEnally: It would have been, yeah.

[5:15] Ethan: It's it's it's dated as far as humor goes, because of it's just missing all of that, all of that ripe satire material.

[5:24] Jess McEnally: I mean boy fixed stuff. I think they should do it again. We can call it like you can call it like holy fuck musical Batman, and and like just now it's darker, you know.

[5:34] Ethan: It's it's interesting to look at it kind of like from the massive catalog of Batman licensed and Batman themed, like everything, all the cartoons, all the comics, all the movies, uh like the whole Batman series for the last gajillion years.

[5:48] Jess McEnally: I don't know. Because when you when you look at like Batman the Animated Series, you're like, oh yeah, this is really cool. And then you think of the Dark Knight, Christopher Nolan films, think of the Justice League, and you're like, oh, it goes downhill from here really fast, you know?

[6:00] Ethan: And so kind of looking at this musical in its own, I don't want to say time capsule, but in its own context, is really really fascinating on what it is that they're riffing, you know.

[6:11] Jess McEnally: Yes, I a hundred percent. You know what this reminds me of?

[6:14] Ethan: What's it remind you of?

[6:14] Jess McEnally: Like tonally it's kind of like um those college humor sketch sketches with Batman?

[6:23] Ethan: What I forget what they call them, Batman or something like that, where it's just like these jokes about Batman, but he's dumb.

[6:30] Jess McEnally: You know, and I feel like they have a lot of that going on in this one.

[6:33] Ethan: Yeah, he's kind of a meathead.

[6:35] Jess McEnally: Yeah, it's just like, hey, it's Batman, but like what if he was like stupid?

[6:42] Ethan: Well, one of my favorite remarking jokes throughout the whole musical is just how everyone's like, oh fuck you.

[6:48] Jess McEnally: Yeah, which is kind of it's kind of what they would do in the college humor sketches.

[6:53] Ethan: So I but I think those are from around the same time period, the 2012 time.

[6:59] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[6:59] Ethan: Yeah.

[7:00] Jess McEnally: Before the dark days.

[7:02] Ethan: Yeah, before the Empire. Um, but Ethan, you're the one that requested this that we cover this today. So I'm assuming you've got some passionate thoughts about it, and I want to hear them.

[7:12] Ethan: I have some very intense passion thoughts. Do you want to just like dive into it into the into the making bones of it?

[7:16] Jess McEnally: Okay.

[7:16] Ethan: Yeah. So what do you got?

[7:18] Ethan: So the thing is about this musical is when I first saw it, I saw it like 2013, 2014. My little brother showed it to me.

[7:24] Ethan: And he was like, Oh, you like comic books and you're like getting a music degree. You're kind of a dork. This is perfect for you.

[7:30] Ethan: And I was like, it was like Christmas break or something like that. We put it on the TV, and I'm like, oh god, like a two-hour YouTube video, crap. Now I have to be polite.

[7:39] Ethan: You know, I'm thinking, oh, this is 15 minutes, it's a skit, you know, laugh, haha, that was great, and then never show it to any of my friends. I watched the whole thing, and I was just like constantly dumbfounded at their ability to either not make it totally stupid or play into how stupid it is.

[7:58] Ethan: Because there's just no way to make this work, right? Like you you just hear the title, oh, a Batman musical. It's like a Spider-Man musical, right? And instead of the Spider-Man musical, which I've never seen, it it doesn't take itself in the slightest bit serious.

[8:14] Ethan: And that's really, really important. And so while you're watching it, it's just constantly filled with like I don't know how to even call it like musical like I don't want to use tropes, but just musical coping mechanisms, I guess.

[8:28] Ethan: And so like one of the things that I love about this musical, like more than anything, is literally the first five minutes.

[8:34] Ethan: Because the first five minutes does everything it possibly can to set your expectations as low as possible while also desensitizing you to what it is you're about to see, right?

[8:46] Ethan: Because like you're literally watching a bunch of 30-year-olds in costume playing superheroes on the playground. That's what this musical is, basically, right? Superman goes whoosh, Batman's throwing invisible batarangs, right? All the goons have their Tommy guns and like right-ta-ta-ta-ta-right. Like that's stupid. That that doesn't, that looks stupid. It looks silly, right?

[9:05] Ethan: But by establishing that that's how they're gonna do things, when it comes back later in the show, you're kind of already sitting there like, ah, this is what it's gonna look like. I can kind of switch gears. Your threshold for suspension of disbelief has to be through the roof, depending on how you look at it, um, in order to kind of get what it is that they're trying to riff on. You know what I mean?

[9:26] Jess McEnally: I mean, yes, and a lot of that comes from, and here's where I'm coming from. Let's let's frame it like this. Um, let's say Andrew Lloyd Webber. Um, you see School of Rock on its own, you think, oh, that's a fun musical adaptation of School of Rock.

[9:41] Jess McEnally: But when you hear it's from Andrew Lloyd Weber, the guy that did Jesus Christ Superstar and Phantom of the Opera and all these things, it's like, okay, no, no, no, no. And that's how I came in feeling this, because they were riding very, very high at this point, the Star Kid Productions.

[9:57] Jess McEnally: And this is the first one I believe AJ Holmes did not do the music for. And it feels very different from it. Whereas Twisted is it could work as its own musical. It is that high quality. It has the emotional gut punches, it has the comedy side of it as well as all this.

[10:14] Jess McEnally: And they follow it up with this, and this, as good as it is, and it has some very high highs, they still fall into a lot of their same tropes where this is very overlong. Every scene I feel like goes on about three to five minutes too long.

[10:25] Ethan: Yeah.

[10:31] Jess McEnally: And I feel like they kind of rush through the song so much that there isn't many songs in it.

[10:36] Ethan: That that is a big criticism of the show, is that there's no numbers. There's like five per act, four per act.

[10:42] Jess McEnally: Which is like nothing for a two-hour show.

[10:45] Ethan: Yes. And I and it's it this story that they have, which is fun and engaging and a great parody of like superhero tropes, especially in uh pre-Avengers, pre-Avengers endgame or like all that time.

[10:58] Jess McEnally: Yeah, they're pretty good, but they basically took this and made it into the Lego movie or the Lego Batman movie five years ago.

[11:06] Ethan: Same, same.

[11:06] Jess McEnally: If you did this now, it would just be Lego Batman the musical.

[11:11] Ethan: The story beats are so eerily similar.

[11:15] Jess McEnally: Like if I wrote if I wrote this musical and then I went and I sat in the theater and watched Lego Batman, I would be furious because they there are a lot of really suspicious similarities between this show and Lego Batman.

[11:26] Ethan: Like all the story beats are like the exact same. It's really weird.

[11:31] Jess McEnally: One of the ballsiest moves that it did was kill off the Joker before the story started, just so they didn't have the crutch of the Joker, which is something I remember first watch was like, alright, that's smart.

[11:42] Ethan: Did they though? Because I kept waiting for the reveal that Sweetooth was the Joker, and it just never happened.

[11:49] Jess McEnally: I think I think that Suitooth kind of became the Joker. You know, sort of like thematically.

[11:54] Ethan: Like he had his own Harlequin and everything. So it kind of like was the Joker, but they're but it wasn't. I think that they just had a bunch of candy puns, and they're like, Well, we can have the Joker do these, but I don't know.

[12:06] Jess McEnally: Well, I mean, those candy puns were impressive. Say what you will, just from a performance perspective, like him just constantly pulling chocolate bars out of his sleeves for like five straight minutes was just it was something else.

[12:17] Ethan: Like that's that's a lot of practice to get that down right.

[12:20] Jess McEnally: It's funny, and I'm waiting for them to adapt him into the actual Batman universe because it wouldn't surprise me.

[12:28] Ethan: It fits.

[12:28] Jess McEnally: He it does fit. They're absolutely right. Batman villains are incredibly one-note puns. And they're also right about one thing that no other like product has really brought up is that Superman's the only competent one in this job because we don't know any of his villains because he does his fucking job.

[12:47] Ethan: Yeah, kind of, right?

[12:49] Jess McEnally: I mean, it's weird how this sort of has the exact same ending as Justice League, where it's like, ah, Superman showed up. I guess everything's fixed.

[12:57] Ethan: Yeah.

[12:58] Jess McEnally: But kind sorry, go ahead.

[13:00] Ethan: When Superman exists in your universe, how do you really end a story without that being the ending?

[13:06] Ethan: You constantly need Kryptonite in every single story, and that's exactly what it turns into.

[13:11] Jess McEnally: Yep.

[13:11] Ethan: Yeah. But kind of kind of coming back to what you're saying about the story is um I'm not familiar with Star Kids catalog. The only other musical I've seen all the way through is The Man Who Hates Musicals.

[13:22] Ethan: And I feel like not the best choice.

[13:24] Jess McEnally: Not the best choice. I thought it looked like the funniest.

[13:27] Ethan: I think that this show and that show both have a very similar problem in how much they kind of rely on this irreverence. They don't take anything seriously. It's kind of like some of those Marvel movies where they don't let themselves like sit and have a sincere or serious moment. So, like when you're when you're watching um the man who hates musicals, there's the one scene where they're like supposed to kiss and she like pukes blood on him and she's like, Alright, fuck it, go save the day. And this musical kind of felt like that all the way through. Like there were definitely moments where it needed to have like a sincere moment where Batman was like, Oh, dude, Robin, I actually really do like having you around. And it just kind of came off as like, bro, we're so fucking cool. Yeah, fuck yeah, Robin. Uh you know, like it never came off as a real moment, you know what I mean?

[14:11] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[14:12] Ethan: I will say that they have taken steps to fix that, um, both to positive and negative results. Um, positively, I'll say Twisted really does have some deeply sincere moments, and I've But Twisted is before these those. But also Black Friday, I think has some deeply sincere moments that they want you to take deathly seriously, but it isn't as effective there because of all the irreverence beforehand. And quite often they tend to replace a joke with just saying a swear.

[14:42] Andrew: Well, they do that in everything though, like that's even in twisted.

[14:46] Ethan: See, I kind of like I'm really not a fan of that because it I mean, looking at this from just a business perspective, it really limits the marketability. It would otherwise more or less be a show that you could take kids to or at least bring a family along, but because they're constantly dropping F-bombs, you can't really do it, you know.

[15:03] Jess McEnally: Yeah, well, I mean, you could literally sell this musical and be like, hey, do you want to make a Lego Batman musical? Except for you'd have to cut all the swearing.

[15:12] Ethan: Yeah.

[15:13] Jess McEnally: And other than that, it's like perfect. It's it's it is the exact same story. Just like it was it was really shocking me. Like, I was upset watching it, like, like even down to Alfred getting his own costume and being a superhero by the end.

[15:28] Ethan: Yeah, I mean, there is also that weird kind of racist thing with Alfred and the Irish.

[15:37] Jess McEnally: I think I think we have to bring this up.

[15:40] Ethan: Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's a big yikes moment. I'm like, ah, that really took a hard left turn, guys.

[15:45] Jess McEnally: That's this is what I was like. I was like trying to be like, oh, well, it's a character, and like, oh, but it's like not though.

[15:53] Ethan: Yeah, they're it's they're they're trying, they're trying to do something like superficial. It's like you can't have that be superficial. If you're gonna do something like that, you have to like address it. You know, it would almost be funnier if like the whole cast came on stage and they were looking at Alfred like, bro, what the fuck? You know? But maybe that's the point.

[16:09] Jess McEnally: 2012 is a different time, guys.

[16:11] Ethan: Maybe that's the point, though. Maybe they're pointing out that uh dressing up and pretending to be a British person and dressing up and pretending to be an Irish person is all the same, you know, and like we should have looked at those two the same way.

[16:25] Jess McEnally: I don't think I don't think they did that.

[16:27] Ethan: No, they'd need to they need to do a lot more in order to make that statement. Look, I'm just I'm just trying to throw something out there, guys. Jeez. Um let me frame this a little better. And I feel like Brie will. I'm very interested in what Bree thinks, because I think she might have watched this at gunpoint from us.

[16:44] Brianna Jones: Uh that's sad. I'm sorry.

[16:48] Ethan: So Brie No one should be forced to watch musicals.

[16:50] Brianna Jones: Yes.

[16:52] Ethan: For context, because this will affect you and me. This entire production company started in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and just out of the University of Michigan basement suite. And you and I both know what Ann Arbor people are. They they're fake woke, and then they just say racist shit and then pretend it's okay. And I feel that a lot in here where they just kind of think, oh no, I'm fine. We can say this. And then hire no what black people or anything like that. Just so what did you think, Brie?

[17:22] Brianna Jones: Uh yeah, I definitely uh kind of saw that. But mind you, I watched it at 1.25 speed. I watched it very fast.

[17:30] Ethan: Oh wow.

[17:32] Brianna Jones: That's how I get things done. Um, but I definitely felt it felt like an S N L skit to me almost. But more offensive and some more offensive.

[17:42] Ethan: They could say the F word.

[17:44] Brianna Jones: Yeah.

[17:44] Ethan: Yeah, but I definitely saw it as like an SNL skit almost. Like that's the vibe I got.

[17:49] Jess McEnally: Mm-hmm.

[17:50] Ethan: Well, SNL is fake woke, so I feel like that fits, right?

[17:53] Brianna Jones: Yeah.

[17:55] Ethan: They'll just say that they're on your side and then throw Donald Trump as the host, and that won't have any repercussions, will it?

[18:02] Jess McEnally: Um Yeah. I mean, do we did we even explain what we're talking about?

[18:07] Ethan: Alfred dresses up as a as a Chinese man, is that right?

[18:10] Brianna Jones: Yep, that that happens.

[18:11] Ethan: He puts on like a spirit Halloween hat from 2007. Yeah. You know. And then like, does he come out and he's I I don't think he goes so far as to be like Ching Chong or whatever, but like I think he does.

[18:17] Brianna Jones: I think he does his accent a little bit.

[18:27] Ethan: Okay, yeah, good. Very cool. But I was I was definitely sitting there just like, okay, we're gonna like make fun of the fact that Alfred Drace, right? Yeah, we're gonna like address this and call it out. No, he just at the end it's just like this sounds like a job for my racist stereotype. And then we never see him again. It's it's it's totally it's totally just like this, you guys need to have this be something else. Maybe we should have done another rewrite on this, you know.

[18:53] Jess McEnally: Yeah, you know, just pass it to another friend or something. You know, at least I didn't at least I didn't like write a song like Ching Chong Wing Long the song or something like that. You know, that would have been bad.

[19:04] Ethan: I This isn't breakfast at Tiffany's, Andrew.

[19:11] Jess McEnally: It's it's weird. It's weird trying to figure out because it's it's so strange because like you said, looking at this in hindsight, right? They told, and this is really difficult to do, right? They told a really good Batman story, right? They basically anticipated Lego Batman like five years ahead of the time ahead of time, and like the the the in terms of like looking at the Batman extended universe, they have so many cool little references, if you're paying attention, that I absolutely love, but then they turned around and did like the Alfred stuff, which is awful.

[19:49] Ethan: They have like if you're gonna do an Obama impersonation, you gotta nail it. And I think that was on purpose. I think they literally just did like a George Bush impression and then said, It's your president, Barack Obama. Okay, because like I feel like that was an intentional joke.

[20:05] Jess McEnally: Yeah, because those are those are definitely a couple times where like it didn't just suck me out of the musical, but I was like actively disliking it, you know.

[20:11] Ethan: Yeah, because they put did the same thing in Black Friday, where they had literally the same actor doing the same voice and just like different president, huh?

[20:24] Andrew: I mean, every president has been George W. Bush, like let's just admit it, guys.

[20:32] Ethan: Anyways, um, I I really I I get what you're saying about all that, and I feel like these people know their shit. Like they've read more comic books than Zack Snyder and Chris Nolan combined, in all honesty.

[20:45] Jess McEnally: Absolutely they are intelligent people that actually enjoy the material.

[20:50] Ethan: Um, but the thing is, it it just feels very dated in in a world where the internet wasn't quite as prevalent as it is now, where everyone has a take on uh different Batman stories and everything else. Can I say I feel like it's too much of a soft parody? And especially with the the swearing and all that, I wanted like a hard satire, and they kind of hint at it early on. They're like, they're like, Aren't you like a mega billionaire? And and you're just going around shooting people. And like, that's like what I'm looking for. And then they just kind of soften it up as the as it goes. They're like, oh criticism of Batman kind of thing.

[21:28] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[21:28] Ethan: Yeah, like a real, not like a parody where it's like, oh, well, Batman's fun and we love Batman. And I want something that's like, hey, Batman is like actively bad for his community. Like, oh, my Patellar tendon. Oh god. Like that.

[21:41] Jess McEnally: I mean you just read the Dark Knight Returns at that point, if you want that.

[21:46] Ethan: Well, yeah, I I don't know, but that's that's kind of what I wanted. And it started going that direction, and then it stopped. And I was like, oh. But then it just jumps to like Robin sucks, you know.

[21:55] Jess McEnally: And I'm like, uh, okay. Did you guys know what the reference did you guys get the reference with the Robin vote? Like everybody coming in for the poll. Was that the Damien, uh, not Damien, um, Jason Todd.

[22:06] Ethan: Yeah, it was a giant Jason Todd reference. Are are you guys both up on that?

[22:10] Brianna Jones: I'm not up on that.

[22:10] Ethan: What do you what do you got? So, um so comics are like crazy, and there are like thousands and thousands of different timelines and different stories, but from what I remember, and from what I gathered, it's a Dame or Damien, not Damian Wayne. Um Dick Grayson, yeah. Dick Grayson was the original Robin, and at a certain point, he's basically like, yo, fuck this, I'm gonna go be Nightwing. And so instead of having Batman and Robin, it's Batman and Nightwing, and Nightwing goes over to Bloodhaven, I think the town is called, and he's like his own hero, or something like that. And so Batman doesn't have a robin. And if I remember correctly, like some kid is trying to steal the wheels off of the Batmobile while Batman's just out on parole.

This is what I heard. I'm not, I haven't read the comic, so I could be very wrong. And so Batman's like, yeah, you'll do. And so Jason Todd becomes the new uh Robin. But the fans fucking hated it. They hated Jason Todd. And like the Jason Todd was like dark and dingy and like didn't listen to Batman. He was like rebellious and all that. And so they ended up having a storyline called Batman and Death in the Family, where through a 900 number, fans would call in and vote as to whether or not the Joker would kill the Robin.

[23:28] Brianna Jones: Right?

[23:28] Ethan: So no, no, no. So what happens is like it's like it's I'm I've got the Wikipedia article over. It's like four issues. Issue number three, there's like a 900 number that where fans can come in and vote. Joker's like actively torturing Jason Todd, and then the van the fans vote to kill Jason Todd. And so in the fourth comic, the Joker kills Jason Todd. I think he beats him to death with a crowbar or something like that.

[23:52] Brianna Jones: Yep, that is 100% what happened.

[23:54] Ethan: It's like super fucking brutal. No, he beat him to death with a crowbar, and then he beat him to death with a crowd. He bled to death. It was it was 100% one of these, like, he's fucking dead. We're not bringing him back, it's over. Shut the fuck up, you know. And then they brought him back.

[24:09] Brianna Jones: Yeah, yeah, no, no.

[24:10] Ethan: So then they have one of these, like, oh, multiple person multiple personality, multiple dimensions come together, and then people who are dead come to live and stuff like that. So then Jason Todd becomes the Red Hood, and it's spoilers for Batman, the Arkham Knight, he's the Arkham Knight. Um, but yeah, so this whole like Robin voting thing was totally a subplot from like another Batman story while they're doing Lego Batman trying to show how much Batman loves Robin. So yeah, it was like lit levels on levels on levels, and I'm not sure that they were all working at the same time, but it was really interesting to see them try and like fuse a bunch of stories together. You know what I mean?

[24:50] Jess McEnally: I think that's funny that the fans voted to fucking kill Verage. History is more interesting than the show.

[24:56] Ethan: Yeah, yeah.

[24:58] Jess McEnally: They should have done like something more meta with that. Fucking the Joker like looks at directly at everyone as like you did this.

[25:11] Ethan: Can we talk about the performances for a minute and how some of them are pastiche and some of them are trying to do their own thing, but then Sweetooth is on a whole different fucking level.

[25:21] Jess McEnally: Sure, sure.

[25:23] Ethan: So like for me, when I saw Sweetooth, I was like, I really like this performance, and I can't figure out why. Now suddenly I was like, I can't I I really like this performance, can't figure out why. Love his performance, can't figure out why. And then I realized it was my favorite one of my favorite performances ever growing up. He's just doing Jim Carrey as the Riddler from Batman Forever. That's like the whole thing. You're like you're watching Jim Carrey be Sweet Tooth. That's that was the whole thing. But it worked. But he's doing touches of Cesar Romero's Joker, especially with like his physicality. Like there's this one movement he does in the America song where he specifically moves his hand in the Cesar Romero way.

And I thought, and this is where my other influences from the Star Kid uh catalog influenced it. Jeff Blim is a great actor, and he goes on, he wrote the music to um uh Black Friday and guy who didn't like musicals, and he starred in them as well. Um, and he was also Aladdin in Twisted. He he's a good actor, a good performer. But when he's doing his comedy role, um, he tends to just do a Jim Carrey impression in all of them. Uh it's especially noticeable in the trail to organ um where he's just doing Jim Carrey and Liar Liar basically the whole time. I thought this was like specifically a Riddler reference. I thought it was being super clever.

[26:37] Jess McEnally: Yeah so I think he was doing a Cesar Romero reference but he can only do a Jim Carrey voice.

[26:45] Ethan: Yeah all right so yeah yeah no I definitely definitely read Ridler. I loved um Robin who is Robin um Nick Lang.

[26:54] Ethan: He also wrote the book.

[26:56] Jess McEnally: Okay.

[26:56] Andrew: All right.

[26:57] Ethan: I thought Robin was like the perfect amount of like awkward and weird. I feel like he really threaded the needle.

[27:05] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[27:05] Ethan: It's just like, yeah, I don't think I'd want to be around him, but you know, funny to watch. But like that's kind of like the character, right? He's supposed to be kind of insufferable, which is why only someone like Batman could like him.

[27:19] Andrew: You know, yeah, because Batman is insufferable.

[27:21] Ethan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, see the role for me that seemed like impossibly difficult was Superman.

[27:29] Andrew: Like how do you? I wanted more Superman.

[27:31] Ethan: Yeah, yes, I wanted more Superman. But I think, yeah, he, it's hard to play a sad Superman.

[27:39] Andrew: Yeah, you're like a sad, lonely, uncool Superman who's constantly leaving voicemails on other people's phones.

[27:45] Ethan: It's like you're on stage talking to yourself, making yourself depressed. Like that's a tough role to play, and I think he did a great job.

[27:53] Andrew: And that's Brian Holden. He's one of the founding members and he wrote a few of them. He's directed a few of them, and he's a big, big behind the scenes guy in this, and he occasionally just jumps on for smaller roles, and he knocked it out of the park with this because he kind of has like that cleft jaw of Superman, and but he also is very good at playing the punching bag in almost every scene.

[28:18] Jess McEnally: Okay, yeah, no, that's definitely, yeah, it's a good way to describe what he was doing.

[28:22] Ethan: It was really good.

[28:23] Andrew: I really liked it.

[28:26] Ethan: The costume design is one of those things that I think is really effective here where they are literally in tidy whiteys, and I loved that.

[28:35] Andrew: I love because it's, it's a, yeah, it's kind of an obvious joke, but it's like if they didn't do it, you'd be upset.

[28:43] Ethan: Yeah, it totally, totally adds to like, I don't know if meta joke is the way to say the way to word it, but they're definitely working with the whole we know that we're standing on stage on theater, we're like five feet away from each other, and you're staring at my junk, that kind of costume, and it works, it totally works without like, you just can't take it seriously, especially Robin who's not wearing anything underneath the Titan, right?

[29:13] Andrew: The part where he just rips his clothes off and like has that underneath.

[29:17] Ethan: He already has it on, beautiful.

[29:19] Andrew: Oh, it's a beautiful one.

[29:20] Ethan: That was probably, probably the best joke.

[29:22] Andrew: I'm not sure.

[29:24] Ethan: The best visual joke, at least.

[29:26] Andrew: Like they expect you to laugh just because of the way that his plane looks and stuff like that.

[29:31] Ethan: And as far as visual gags look go, that one's the top one.

[29:34] Andrew: It's just the scene before that just went on way too long.

[29:38] Ethan: I'll give you that.

[29:39] Andrew: I really liked the dancers holding bats in the background while Batman was singing.

[29:44] Ethan: That I thought was hilarious.

[29:46] Andrew: That was like a hundred percent like using what you've got, you know what I mean? Just like how do we make this even more absurd?

[29:53] Ethan: The only thing that I think is like, like all this is good, especially it hasn't aged well, but I think it's still generally good, and I don't want to harp make it seem bad because it isn't. But the one thing that I think was even badly aged at the time is making fun of Christian Bale's voice.

[30:11] Andrew: Like doing that voice throughout the entire thing.

[30:13] Ethan: Yeah.

[30:14] Andrew: What are you talking about? This is always funny.

[30:19] Ethan: Yeah, I'll definitely give you that's the one thing that didn't age well.

[30:22] Andrew: It would have because you can definitely see them making like a Ben Affleck joke nowadays, you know, or like having him walk in on in like a Lego costume if they're gonna do it now.

[30:31] Ethan: It's definitely like it's weird to make a Christian Bale joke, but then also make like a George Clooney bat nipple joke.

[30:38] Andrew: Right.

[30:39] Ethan: You know, it's like if you're gonna make fun of different Batmans, like do it over and over again, like if his costume kept changing, you know, like if just for like one scene for absolutely no reason he's got bat nipples, that would have been hilarious.

[30:49] Andrew: But to just have the one voice, it kind of feels like if he just kept screaming Martha over and over again, like we get it, it works, but let's do something else now.

[31:00] Ethan: Should have done a gag where he couldn't move his neck where his neck's just like back, something like that.

[31:06] Andrew: But no, you gotta go for the low-hanging fruit.

[31:09] Ethan: I think that's Starkid's motto.

[31:12] Andrew: It isn't though, like with the Harry Potter stuff, I feel like they were really ahead of their time, and all the jokes in the Harry Potter stuff kind of hold up.

[31:20] Ethan: Not so much because JK Rowling is a piece of shit.

[31:23] Andrew: Um, but we also need to think about Twisted, which I don't think anything in there was low-hanging fruit, so to say.

[31:31] Ethan: So you're saying that like by their whole catalog, this doesn't rate very high for you.

[31:36] Andrew: No.

[31:37] Ethan: Okay.

[31:37] Andrew: I wouldn't even call this top three. It is not the bottom bottom of the list though, because Annie still exists, which I think is actively bad.

[31:47] Ethan: Annie.

[31:47] Jess McEnally: They did it in Annie?

[31:49] Andrew: Yeah.

[31:49] Ethan: Um, wait, like Starkid didn't Annie, not just Annie Annie.

[31:52] Andrew: Yes, they did an Annie about Anakin Skywalker.

[31:55] Ethan: Oh.

[31:57] Jess McEnally: I gotta watch that.

[31:58] Ethan: That sounds great.

[31:59] Andrew: Tell me why it's not.

[32:00] Ethan: Oh no, you hyped him up for it, Jess.

[32:02] Jess McEnally: Oh see this.

[32:04] Ethan: Well, A, it bothers me specifically because it's not a real musical, just like diegetic music sung over scenes, which bothers me, and it's all right.

[32:12] Andrew: It's kind of like the Emperor's Google.

[32:14] Ethan: Yeah, but it's a Broadway show or it's a theater show, so it's like, come on, sing for me, goddammit.

[32:19] Jess McEnally: Okay.

[32:20] Ethan: And also the joke is um Darth Vader is doing a Patrick Warburton impression, and that's the joke.

[32:27] Andrew: Ah, okay.

[32:29] Ethan: And Tarkin wants to be friends with Vader. That's the joke.

[32:33] Andrew: Huh. See, yeah, I kind of get it.

[32:36] Ethan: Well, when I was watching this show though, the thing that really got me that made me like they kind of really, really impressed me was I don't want to say the word diagesis, but how they negotiated suspending the audience's disbelief.

[32:54] Andrew: You know, and that's why I really feel like the opening was so strong, and why it that carried throughout the rest of the show.

[33:00] Ethan: Um because it is really, really silly, and I think that working toward making it a little bit more serious in a few specific parts could have been better.

[33:13] Andrew: Like they introduce all of the rogues, and then Sweet Tooth comes in way too late.

[33:18] Ethan: 44 minutes into the two-hour show, he comes in nearly an hour in.

[33:22] Andrew: Yeah, it's, it's he, he's basically like the act one's end, you know?

[33:28] Ethan: I'd love just a sequel or they just do Sweet Tooth, just Sweet Tooth.

[33:32] Andrew: Do a Joker, you know, but a Sweet Tooth.

[33:35] Ethan: The origin story of Sweet Tooth, and it's like super dark.

[33:39] Andrew: It's like he murdered people with the candy cane on a, well you could, you can do like a parody though.

[33:39] Ethan: Do like a parody of the city.

[33:45] Andrew: Oh, he'd like a movie.

[33:48] Ethan: Oh I want this.

[33:52] Andrew: His skin is just sugar.

[33:53] Ethan: Yeah, you can have him stab people with candy canes, right?

[33:57] Andrew: Well, he has that big candy cane.

[33:58] Ethan: Right.

[33:59] Andrew: Oh, oh, and then in the end he dies by pouring water on him and he melts.

[34:04] Ethan: Well, let's get Gorenson on here.

[34:06] Andrew: What's her name?

[34:07] Ethan: Ludwig Gorenson.

[34:09] Andrew: Let's get her in there and just compose a bunch of strings with a candy cane.

[34:14] Ethan: You've got this. This is the idea.

[34:15] Andrew: This is the return of Starkid.

[34:18] Ethan: Oh, yeah, no, yeah. Return is return, uh, Holy Musical Batman 2, Revenge of Candyland, and then the whole, his whole empire is called Candyland, and all the villains are themed off the Candyland board game.

[34:32] Andrew: Because that was one that was genuinely one joke I really liked in this musical, is how they were like, oh, all of the rogues just happened to be public domain names. Here's Sherlock Holmes with the Heat Ray.

[34:41] Ethan: I thought that was really funny.

[34:43] Andrew: Which is fair. You got Mad Hatter in that. It was like Mad Hatter, Sherlock Holmes. Wasn't Huckleberry Finn in it at one point?

[34:50] Ethan: Did I hallucinate that?

[34:51] Andrew: You may have hallucinated that.

[34:53] Ethan: I don't remember that.

[34:54] Andrew: I don't remember much though. I've, I'm two glasses of wine in.

[34:57] Ethan: Well, let's go into a mid-show announcement and then talk about the songs.

[35:00] Jess McEnally: Sure.

[35:02] Andrew: All right.

[35:08] Ethan: Batman, what are you doing here?

[35:10] Jess McEnally: Are you gonna tell us about Patreon?

[35:11] Ethan: I'm gonna tell you about, I got something in my throat, sorry.

[35:16] Ethan: I'm gonna tell you about Patreon.

[35:19] Jess McEnally: Um, well, Patreon's where you can go if you wanna donate to us and get extra perks and stuff.

[35:26] Ethan: We are starting some other show that I still can't remember the name of.

[35:29] Jess McEnally: Just what is it?

[35:30] Ethan: Fossey Verden.

[35:31] Jess McEnally: We haven't recorded any episodes.

[35:32] Ethan: We haven't recorded any episodes as of right now, but there's still gonna be one posted before we even post this.

[35:37] Jess McEnally: Hopefully.

[35:38] Ethan: Um, just do you want to read our current patrons?

[35:41] Jess McEnally: Do you want me to go through?

[35:42] Ethan: Holy Patreon, Batman.

[35:44] Jess McEnally: I'll read the patrons.

[35:45] Ethan: Oh, he's got it.

[35:46] Jess McEnally: Um, our current patrons are Terry Needleman, Max Lunig, Benjamin Lair, Lily Accles, John Donna, Terran the Duck, The Fantastic Jess Lightning, Ewan Casty, Haley McDonald, Taskir, Fire September, Mina Maniri, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, Haley Murray, Allison Wonderland, B Way Flicks, Lithaniel Stacy Coombe, Luna Rox 222, Ira Gale Drew Whiter, Carrie Ahern, Christine Malmadell, Mezzanine Theater Diary, Mary Lou Choquette, Ann Nunnelly, Cole Birchfield, John Van Alz, Holly Stisticly, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Grace, Andrew Van Barsen, Emily Stack, Kyle Summers, Mr. B, Janae C, Kyle, Christina Francis, Jessica A, Skyler, Liz Lynn, Cory Wilmarth, Alison Steller, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, Ren Collin, Thesbian with a B, Crystal Stapleton, Elizabeth Loving Good, Victoria Tribble, and Alex.

[36:40] Ethan: Thanks, Alex.

[36:41] Jess McEnally: Thanks for coming on, Alex.

[36:43] Ethan: But they gave us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks such as Patreon only commentaries, come join us at Patreon.

[36:52] Jess McEnally: Alright, let's get on to the show.

[37:00] Andrew: Alright.

[37:01] Jess McEnally: Well, let's talk about the opening number sideways.

[37:04] Ethan: Ethan, you have an actual name.

[37:07] Jess McEnally: What?

[37:09] Ethan: Do your fans know your name?

[37:11] Ethan: Uh, the ones that watch me stream and play video games.

[37:14] Jess McEnally: But Holy Musical Batman, that is a really interesting.

[37:17] Ethan: That's a very interesting opening number, wouldn't you say?

[37:20] Jess McEnally: It sh is one shot.

[37:27] Ethan: Two shots in the night, and they're gone.

[37:31] Jess McEnally: And he's all left alone.

[37:34] Ethan: He's just one boy.

[37:38] Jess McEnally: Two dead at his feet, and the blood stains estre.

[37:46] Ethan: And there's nothing.

[37:49] Jess McEnally: No, there's nothing.

[37:51] Ethan: He can do.

[38:01] Jess McEnally: This okay. So the thing about this musical is that I'm looking at the Wikipedia page and it says it has nine songs.

[38:07] Ethan: I would give it closer to eight, right?

[38:11] Jess McEnally: Just in terms of how they work.

[38:12] Ethan: And so what we're basically looking at here is we're looking at like a Disney movie number of songs stretched over a two-hour musical.

[38:22] Jess McEnally: It is over two hours.

[38:23] Ethan: Over two hours, right?

[38:24] Jess McEnally: Absolutely.

[38:25] Ethan: So with fewer musical numbers, each one becomes even more important.

[38:30] Jess McEnally: So now there's more weight on each song to like tell a story, serve a function, have something happen.

[38:37] Ethan: And it doesn't happen in every single one of these numbers.

[38:40] Jess McEnally: Like in the first one, Holy Musical Bad.

[38:41] Ethan: But you have to have a few songs that are just jokes and have no story relevance at all, right?

[38:46] Jess McEnally: You don't though.

[38:46] Ethan: You don't.

[38:47] Jess McEnally: No, no, you do though, Jess, right?

[38:49] Ethan: Well, no, no, you don't. Hold on. There is a case for doing something like that, right? Like you think of um, uh, what's the Olaf song at Frozen?

[38:59] Jess McEnally: In summer, but that's a character introduction song. That's actually very important, right?

[39:03] Ethan: Right, right.

[39:03] Jess McEnally: But it is like the whole song is just one giant joke of he doesn't understand what happens to Snowman in summer, right?

[39:09] Ethan: Yes, but that has much more impact than say the weird song they give him in Frozen 2 that has no purpose, right?

[39:15] Jess McEnally: Exactly.

[39:16] Ethan: So the thing is that you can have a song that is like 90% joke, 10% okay, that's what the comic relief character is, right? It's sort of like a mini I want song, yes, and it doesn't really happen here.

[39:29] Jess McEnally: Like this is where things got really, really interesting for me in terms of breaking it apart. Like with Holy Musical Batman, like I said, the whole intro, it sets up your expectations.

[39:38] Ethan: Okay, it's, it's not gonna be high budget wire work, you know.

[39:43] Jess McEnally: It's not gonna be a stunt show, yeah.

[39:44] Ethan: 3D printed props or anything like that. Um, but Holy Musical Batman, it's, it's a, it's the company, there's really no characters, it doesn't introduce anyone, it's really like an expectation setting number, which is really, really polarizing, I think is the word I want to use, because narratively it does next to nothing, but because it's Batman and you already really know about Batman, you know what's going on with Batman, it sets the tone for what this Batman is.

[40:15] Jess McEnally: Does that make sense?

[40:16] Ethan: Yes, and in that sense, like I said, it's very similar to the first number in Lego Batman.

[40:23] Ethan: Where it's literally Batman shows up, beats everybody up, and he's like, "Oh, I'm Batman." Like, that's the that's the song, right? That's the number. Um, that Lego Batman absolutely 100% ripped off this. I'm not saying 100%, but those guys definitely saw this musical. Yeah, yeah. You know, like with I would say without question. I would definitely say they saw the music. I mean, if they made it about the relationship between Superman and Batman, I'd agree more, but since it is more about the Joker in Batman, I'm like, all right, maybe not. It's the Robin thing for me. Um, but yeah, I was I was kind of like, you know, you hear holy musical Batman, and the first thing in your head is like, okay, Batman has to sing, right?

You're walking into the show, you're going to hear somebody dressed up in a Batman outfit, take off the cowl and sing to the audience, and it's gonna be serious, and you gotta take it serious. Like, how do you navigate that? How do you write that number? You you don't, but they they did by introducing it through Alfred, right? I mean, no, this is through the townspeople, where they're like, holy music. No, no, no, the second number. Oh, all right, we're moving on. We're combining the two numbers only night because holy musical and Batman, the song is just telling you that it exists. Yeah, that Batman exists, and we are in a musical right now, right? Right, right. Yes, which you could have gotten from the title, but really the song is the tone setter.

[41:53] Ethan: Now we move on to the character introduction.

[43:06] ♪ Musical number: "Dark Sad Lonely Night" — performed by Ethan ♪

[43:06] Ethan: It's like it's like a thematic set piece song. You know? It's like you already know Batman, but this is what our Batman's gonna look like. You know what I mean? Yeah. But then "Dark Sad Lonely Night" is an I Want song, as told through the eyes of Alfred. But it's not just an I want song for Batman, it's an I want song for Superman as well. Yeah, it it it it was ambitious. I would say it's ambitious. Yes. I saw like when you when you I'm trying to figure out like what you would call Superman, because he's not the antagonist. Is either was it the tritagonist, the third guy? I mean, who would be your second guy? I mean, I don't want to say Robin, but Robin, it's Batman and Arcanine. Robin doesn't come until halfway through act one and has no arc, which means Superman very much has an arc.

Right, and Alfred similarly doesn't have an arc, but a lot of emphasis is put on him early on in the show. Man, I think Superman is the antagonist. I would I I think I we could say Tooth is the antagonist. No. No. No, Sweet Tooth is more of like a hurdle. Sweet Tooth is like a secondary antagonist. Yeah, I'd say that. Superman is the actual antagonist, because really what ends the show is Batman defeating Superman. Wouldn't it becoming best friends? If instead of like starting with holy musical Batman, we went Hamilton or Jesus Christ Superstar style and make it from Superman's point of view about like this is who Batman is, and I don't disagree with him, but I also want to be his best friend.

And then we see that like need become like a big thing. Does Superman disagree with Batman, or does Superman just upset that everyone thinks Batman is cool? Yeah, I don't feel like they established it super well. I don't think Superman actually has any disagreements with Batman. Superman is just like, I wish everyone else thought I was as cool as they think Batman is. Yeah. I mean, I'd be envious if my peer was that much cooler than me and liked me so little. Right, Andrew?

[43:38] Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that's comparable though, Jess, because I I'm like way cooler than you. Whereas Batman is like not that much cooler than Superman, if we're real.

[45:18] Ethan: Yeah, I guess. Billionaires are never cooler than anyone.

[45:23] Jess McEnally: Yes. I did. I did like the bit where they're like, oh, you should just be born a billionaire. That was really funny. That's the kind of thing I was looking for, and then they did it like once and then stopped.

[45:36] Ethan: Like you want like a complete deconstruction of Batman.

[45:38] Jess McEnally: Absolutely. I feel like it hasn't been done. Like it definitely could be done, and it hasn't.

[45:44] Ethan: Dark Knight Returns, read it, son.

[45:46] Jess McEnally: I'm sure, but that's that's like actually Batman though. I need like a satire of it.

[45:50] Ethan: It is 100% a satire of it.

[45:53] Jess McEnally: Yeah, it is. From the inside, though. I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't feel the same. It's like if you had a satire of Batman. It's like the Brady Bunch movie where they got the rights of the Brady Bunch, but they're doing a satire of the Brady Bunch.

[46:04] Ethan: Yeah, or like Starship Troopers, I guess, yeah.

[46:07] Andrew: Rogues are we? What do we think about this?

[46:11] Ethan: This town's been chewing on bad casserole for far too long. But tonight, we provide a little palate cleanser. Moving on to the dessert course. We're gonna give this city something sweet to suck on, baby. Rogues acceptance. Gather, unite! And take a mental snapshot of this most auspicious night. We got like the numbers now. The battle can begin.

[46:47] Andrew: We hope and common me.

[46:53] Ethan: How long did it take for this song to show up after "Dark Side Lowlands"?

[46:57] Andrew: 35 minutes.

[46:58] Ethan: Like it is 35 minutes and show. Yeah, they they needed to. I definitely feel like some things needed to be rearranged here. There's like a solid like 15-20 minutes between the first songs and this one. And it's like, oh right, right, right, right, right. This is a musical music. Musical.

[47:14] Jess McEnally: Right.

[47:15] Ethan: Well, it's so it's so weird because "Rogues Are We" introduces the villain's sidekicks before the villain. But it's all the villains that we know before we introduce the new villain that we made up, especially for this this dooba dob or makeup.

[47:33] Jess McEnally: Right, right. But I'm just like the fact that it's backwards is interesting.

[47:37] Ethan: Yeah. You know, instead of g instead of like giving Gaston a number, it's LeFu.

[47:41] Jess McEnally: Well, LeFu sings the Gaston song, doesn't he?

[47:45] Ethan: Right, but the but the song's purpose is for Gaston. "Rogues Are We" is not for Sweet Tooth. I mean, it is kind of because he introduces himself and then he kind of adds like a quiet reprise at the end of it, doesn't he?

[47:56] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[47:58] Ethan: I mean, it's kind of that, but also I feel forgive me if I'm assuming too much about the songwriters, but I assume they had like this idea of Batman musical. So here's a bunch of songs, and write the show around these songs. He'll be like about the villains, and this will be about the two heroes.

[48:13] Jess McEnally: Right.

[48:18] Ethan: Or it's like where the beats are. But then that makes them even more important, which means that everything, all the material that appears in the song is like critical to the story, and "Rogues Are We" not so much. Like you look at all the characters singing, and you're like, they they they like their criticizing in the Batman canon. Most of these characters do literally get one or two lines, and they're just puns.

[48:42] Jess McEnally: Well, yeah, but they wrote the song to tell a bunch of puns from those characters, and then they introduced Sweet Tooth so they can start telling all the candy puns they came up with.

[48:52] Ethan: Yeah, right. I could see that. See, that's that's that's the thought. Um, the dancing in this is kind of lame. I just want to throw that out there.

[49:00] Jess McEnally: I wonder how much the costumes held them back.

[49:04] Ethan: Probably a lot.

[49:06] Jess McEnally: The costumes are really nice. I liked them. I thought they were good. Like for the tone of the of the of the show. Like um, who is it, Mr. Freeze has a big ass helmet on him.

[49:14] Ethan: Yeah.

[49:17] Jess McEnally: And then Catwoman has like a cat staple to her shoulder.

[49:20] Ethan: Yeah. There's only so much you can do before those props start going flying across the stage, you know.

[49:25] Jess McEnally: And also they have to be easy to change into because all these actors are doubling like nine different roles. Like you got Gordon being played by another villain.

[49:34] Ethan: It's look, I'm just saying that they have a dance number and they're kind of like just kind of shuffling.

[49:43] Jess McEnally: Oh my god, don't bring that up.

[49:45] Ethan: No, we're not allowed to talk about that.

[49:48] Jess McEnally: What?

[49:48] Ethan: What is this something I don't get?

[49:49] Jess McEnally: What? What's going on?

[49:51] Ethan: It's a nostalgia critic reference.

[49:53] Jess McEnally: Oh, is it?

[49:55] Ethan: Alright.

[49:56] Jess McEnally: Okay.

[49:57] Ethan: And we don't bring him up on this show.

[49:59] Jess McEnally: We don't talk about the super villain shuffle.

[50:01] Ethan: I'm sorry.

[50:02] Jess McEnally: No, we don't. We do talk about the dynamic duet, which is the strangest act one opener or act one closer I've ever seen.

[50:17] Ethan: We're like bug lost brothers who found each other and love each other like families.

[50:25] Jess McEnally: You are my bros.

[50:27] Ethan: Me, amigo.

[50:29] Jess McEnally: And where I go, it's where we go.

[50:32] Ethan: And it feels as though it was asked to be so so very nice.

[50:38] Jess McEnally: Out.

[50:44] Ethan: It doesn't even do anything to close the act. It's just like, here's Robin.

[50:49] Jess McEnally: I agree.

[50:49] Ethan: I agree. I I feel like this needed to come a little sooner.

[50:55] Jess McEnally: Yes, a lot sooner. Don't have like a half an hour in between some of the numbers. Have this be sooner and then have a new act one closer that actually closes the first act.

[51:04] Ethan: Well, the American Way closes act one perfectly. It's just that they didn't have enough songs to finish the show.

[51:11] Jess McEnally: They should have put the dynamic duet like either right after Rogues Are We and have Rogues Are We way earlier.

[51:18] Ethan: Or even just put it between, like, I don't know.

[51:21] Jess McEnally: Or just right after Sad Dark Lonely Night and be like, "Yeah, I'm sad. Oh, wait, no, there's a Robin." What were they doing in between Dark Sad Lonely Night and Rogues Are We?

[51:30] Andrew: I can't even really.

[51:30] Ethan: Superman had the scene with Green Lantern.

[51:35] Andrew: Yeah.

[51:37] Ethan: Yeah, like who cares? Well, that's the thing. They put such an emphasis on Superman in the Superman story that for Superman to not really get more numbers or to be more significant in the show is really. Well, Act One is a lot of Superman, and then Act Two, it's kind of like, wait, where'd Superman go?

[51:52] Jess McEnally: He's just not here.

[51:53] Ethan: Well, that yeah, that kind of ties into Robin's sucks, right? Like, Robin sucks as the act two opener, but it doesn't it it's not paying anything off. Like nothing is really set up. You know, you walk into act two and you're like, oh, okay, people don't like Robin now for some.

[52:06] Andrew: Everyone doesn't like Robin now.

[52:08] Ethan: I mean, what did he do?

[52:09] Andrew: Oh, he didn't do anything, they just think he's lame.

[52:10] Ethan: Okay. See, what could have been cool? What could have been cool would be if they move dynamic duet like back in the act one, like the compress everything in act one, have an act one end, or even finish with the American Way, but have something happen in between dynamic duet and the American Way that like ruins Robin's public image because Batman's not trying because it's just him and Robin hanging out.

[52:32] Jess McEnally: And have Sweet Tooth be involved.

[52:34] Ethan: Exactly.

[52:34] Jess McEnally: And then have Sweet.

[52:40] Ethan: Yes. Right. And everyone's like, everyone's like, oh my god, Robin's terrible. He's ruining Batman. And then you close Act One with The American Way.

[52:49] Ethan: You open Act Two with Robin Sucks. Robin sucks as the scapegoat. Then you can have a new number with Sweet Tooth in Act Two singing about how great he is and how because people love him, he's managed to sell his candy to them that is going to make their heads implode. Boom.

[53:05] Ethan: And it's kind of like the Joker thing that where he sells shampoo.

[53:09] Jess McEnally: Yes.

[53:10] Ethan: But that just triggered another explosion in the back of my mind that this is not the first Batman musical.

[53:17] Jess McEnally: Wait, what?

[53:18] Ethan: Is it not?

[53:19] Jess McEnally: Yes, in the late, I think the late 2000s, like mid to late 2000s, WB musical department, which is now only really done Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Um Beetlejuice, which is actually very good, commissioned an adaptation of Batman 1989 to become a musical.

[53:41] Ethan: What?

[53:42] Ethan: Sounds like such a bad idea. Why do they do that? And Tim Burton was actually very interested in directing it himself.

[53:49] Jess McEnally: What?

[53:50] Ethan: Yes.

[53:50] Jess McEnally: Oh my god, wait, what? Hold on, I need this in my life. I'm looking at it. Did it happen?

[53:53] Ethan: They there's a demo with a bunch of songs, but then they kind of moved on from it. And one of the songs I remember specifically is Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?

[54:05] Jess McEnally: Sung by the Joker.

[54:06] Ethan: And I'm like, I hate this. I hate this so much.

[54:09] Jess McEnally: What is it?

[54:09] Ethan: Oh my god. Oh my god. Can we can we put this in? Free. Put a little clip of the horrible, the horrible Batman musical that never existed, please.

[54:20] Jess McEnally: We are not amused.

[54:23] Ethan: Let me put it to you this way. Where does Chicago get all of that meat? How does Venezuela get all of their heat? And when is a deed is find all their feet? You'd like to know the answers now. I wouldn't your boy, so tell me when does he get all those wonderful toys?

[54:55] Ethan: I mean, it never happened because once again Tim Burton kind of was like, uh, maybe this isn't the best thing for the brand right now. And the Dark Knight was kind of jumping off and becoming it a thing. Because at this time they were still thinking of the George Miller Justice League and all that. So they weren't really sure what to do with the Batman brand.

[55:15] Ethan: Hold on, hold on. In in 1988 to 2002, period, Jim Steinman worked on a musical based on the Batman comic book series to have entitled Batman and produced by Warner Brothers. Uh theater ventures and new armored WB aimed at competing with Disney, who strangled on Broadway with such Disney theatrical productions as Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, and Aida, and was and was and remained strong. They were trying to compete with Disney with Batman, which of course, great. Steinman would of course contribute music and lyrics. Tim Burton was reportedly chosen to direct, although he later downplayed the actual knowledge of the project.

[55:51] Jess McEnally: Sounds like him.

[55:52] Ethan: He was embarrassed. He was like, Oh, that would that actually sound like a terrible idea. What I never I never wanted that. According to Steinman, uh, the show is about 70% done. Oh my, they were going to open in 2005, but it fell through. Because Batman Begins happened.

[56:11] Jess McEnally: Wow.

[56:12] Ethan: Yeah, basically. They gave they gave the race to Christopher Nolan.

[56:16] Jess McEnally: Oh my god, what? I have to find these demos.

[56:20] Ethan: Yeah, um, they're not great. I don't think they would have made a good musical. Um I don't like the 89 Batman movie to begin with. I don't I think Batman Returns is the best pre-Nolan Batman movie in all my opinion.

[56:35] Jess McEnally: Batman Returns is my favorite.

[56:37] Ethan: Batman Returns is fucking amazing, and I feel like everyone chat on it for all the wrong reasons.

[56:42] Jess McEnally: Well, they wanted something more kid friendly, I think. I feel like.

[56:45] Ethan: Yeah, and we got Batman Forever, which sucks dick. Except for Jim Carrey.

[56:49] Jess McEnally: I was a huge fan of the game. Jim Carrey was the only one that knew what movie he was in.

[56:54] Ethan: Yeah.

[56:56] Jess McEnally: That's a good way of putting it, yeah. Oh, speaking, speaking of Batman Forever, uh, just because I was thinking of Two Face, Two Face had the best lines out of all the villains in this musical.

[57:06] Ethan: All the two dollar bills from the second national bank. That shit was hilarious. I loved it. He's like, hang on, I'm double parked, and I'm like, that that's the dumbest joke you could possibly make. They're winning. This is this is perfect. If you stole all the $2 bills from any bank, you'd you'd leave with maybe $2.

[57:22] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[57:25] Ethan: So let's talk about the American way. Because I did. Therefore, I win. We could have been friends, Batman. But let him know this is what happens when you don't return people's phone calls.

[57:42] Jess McEnally: Tonight, it's called no. I'm unfishing my awesome new terrain blood. Tonight. Tonight, I'm gonna save my bro with this all the city has got to go. And I'm American. And in America, I do what I like.

[58:11] Ethan: I feel like it stood out. I I'm not sure it totally blended in with the rest of the show. Let's think if we took one day more out of Le Miz and then just put it halfway through the second act, and then nothing. That's what the American way is.

[58:28] Jess McEnally: It definitely feels out of place. I'll put it that way.

[58:30] Ethan: Out of order, maybe.

[58:33] Jess McEnally: Yes, I I I it feels it works in the story, like in a narrative, that is where that song would be. And I feel like the second act or the end of act one should be with Robin getting kicknapped, so we're interested, like, oh, what's gonna happen in act two? It makes sense. It's just it doesn't belong in the halfway through the second act. Structure-wise, it's fucked up.

[58:53] Andrew: Yeah.

[58:54] Jess McEnally: Thanks, Andrew. I'm glad you interacted.

[58:58] Andrew: I I don't have much else to say, I agree.

[59:02] Ethan: It's kinda, and then the rest of the show is kind of like Batman giving Superman a pep talk.

[59:08] Jess McEnally: Pretty much. You know. I feel like after this song, it's kind of just like, why does the rest of this even here? I mean, I get it, but I like to be a man a lot. Like, even though the course is literally just fuck you.

[59:22] Ethan: I see a scare boy. Behind the cape and the cow. Fuck you. I'm gonna kick your rents. Fuck you. I'm taking you in. You wanna be the man, you've got to be the man. I'm gonna show you what it means to be a man, man. I've learned a lot about life. Since I got myself a bro.

[59:50] Jess McEnally: You mean your tiny little side kick. You guys are so adorable.

[59:56] Ethan: It's weird. Like, if you're kind of looking at it from a character arc, Batman's arc finishes when he's like, I'm gonna go save Robin. That's kind of it, because he's realizes, like, yep, I'm he's done the Lego Batman thing, right? I'm lonely, I need a friend. Robin is my friend, I'm no longer lonely. I can't just sit here in my cave alone all day. And when he once he has Robin, that's it. Like, that's Batman's arc over. All his wants, all his needs, everything. When it comes to saving the planet, that necessity is satisfied by Superman, not Batman.

[1:00:30] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:00:30] Ethan: Well, Batman's incapable. I guess that you could say that's part of his arc, is he has to accept that he's not as powerful as Superman.

[1:00:37] Jess McEnally: Oh, okay, that's a good point. I didn't think of that.

[1:00:40] Ethan: It's not really that important though. But then that but then that makes the Robin arc sort of like the subplot. Even though that's really the main plot.

[1:00:49] Jess McEnally: Mm-hmm.

[1:00:51] Ethan: But they start the Superman one earlier, so maybe that one is the main plot. I feel like they just were super ambitious with this, and they should have chose either the Batman Dark Knight Returns, Batman v Superman arc, which they put in there, or the Robin becomes the soul of my life part. And then they're like, we'll do both. Just kind of like how Batman v Superman Donald Justice wanted to do everything, but ended up doing nothing in the end.

[1:01:15] Jess McEnally: And also Wonder Woman's there.

[1:01:18] Ethan: Maybe it is a satire of Batman v Superman, and we just didn't know it. It came out four years before that movie was even around, but a satire. I like the Super Friends stuff.

[1:01:31] Jess McEnally: Super Friends is good.

[1:01:31] Ethan: I like Green Lantern. Like, I felt like he was a fun interpretation of that character that has never been done right in movies.

[1:01:40] Jess McEnally: Oh, yeah.

[1:01:41] Ethan: He's like, I can make Heineken or what was the other one? Rolling Rock.

[1:01:44] Jess McEnally: Anything green.

[1:01:45] Ethan: Well, he only he only makes Rolling Rock, I'm pretty sure.

[1:01:48] Jess McEnally: Heineken or Rolling Rock.

[1:01:51] Ethan: That's and then Spider-Man shows up because you know, fresh off his own musical, and he's like, here I am.

[1:01:59] Jess McEnally: Now, Spider-Man was actually a recurring theme in the Harry Potter musicals where they just kept comparing um Harry Potter's life to Spider-Man's life.

[1:02:08] Ethan: Wait, what? Really?

[1:02:10] Jess McEnally: Yes. Um he's like Is it really that similar?

[1:02:13] Ethan: I feel like it's not that similar.

[1:02:15] Jess McEnally: It's not, but the joke is that the Harry Potter character is obsessed with the Spider-Man movies.

[1:02:21] Ethan: Oh.

[1:02:24] Jess McEnally: And he's like, We're you and I are just he's talking to Ginny, and he's like, You're just like Mary Jane and I'm Spider-Man, and I have to dump you to like go on my life. And then she's like, but you get back together in Spider-Man 2. He's like, Yeah, but then Spider-Man 3 happens and everything sucks, and I hate it.

[1:02:41] Ethan: I just like Spider-Man 3.

[1:02:43] Jess McEnally: Spider-Man 3 is the best one.

[1:02:45] Ethan: Because it was so fun to make fun of Spider-Man 3 in 2010. Spider-Man 3 has the dancing thing, which is like the greatest thing ever put on screen. Let's dig on this.

[1:02:56] Jess McEnally: Exactly. It's got all the Sandman stuff, which is all great. Um, I mean, Spider-Man 3 is the best one. It's got tofu for grace, the weird Venom stuff, and it's the weird Venom stuff is phenomenal. It's got it's got the less campy Green Goblin.

[1:03:09] Ethan: Yep.

[1:03:10] Jess McEnally: And that's that's a downfall. I think that having James Franco as the Green Goblin is a negative. I feel like just the dance scene where he goes in and dances on his girlfriend is just like And then hits her.

[1:03:22] Ethan: Don't forget that hits her.

[1:03:24] Jess McEnally: He hits her because it's like the you know, the dancing on part was like just the the cake, and then you hit her for the icing, right?

[1:03:31] Ethan: Jesus Christ.

[1:03:34] Jess McEnally: Like, I don't know. The Spider-Man 3 is the best one, in my opinion.

[1:03:37] Ethan: Yeah.

[1:03:38] Jess McEnally: It's definitely the closest to a musical, I'll say that.

[1:03:43] Ethan: Spider-Man. Spider-Man 3, the musical. Let's go.

[1:03:46] Jess McEnally: That's that's turn off the dark in all honesty.

[1:03:50] Ethan: I have I still haven't seen that.

[1:03:52] Jess McEnally: You you you shouldn't.

[1:03:54] Ethan: Yeah, you still don't have to see it.

[1:03:56] Jess McEnally: No.

[1:03:56] Ethan: You can go your whole life without seeing Spider-Man.

[1:03:58] Jess McEnally: No one's making dark.

[1:04:00] Ethan: Nobody's making me. I can't I can't find it anywhere. I keep wanting to watch.

[1:04:03] Jess McEnally: Do you really want to listen to music by fucking Bono and the Edge?

[1:04:07] Ethan: Yeah, they put two out there. They put free music from Bono and the Edge on your iPhone, and no one no one fucking. No one wants that.

[1:04:14] Jess McEnally: So you're like, what you're gonna seek out worse music by them?

[1:04:18] Ethan: Like Yes. I absolutely want to see that musical. The thing is, you can't just see that musical is the problem. There were so many revisions to it. I want to see the original version with Julie Tamore where Arachne had a whole fucking tap dance number where she was talking about buying shoes. I want to see that version, because that sounds insane. But the version we got was like a universal stage show attraction that just retold all of fucking the first Spider-Man.

[1:04:46] Jess McEnally: You know what? It feel that show feels like a big budget Star Kids show.

[1:04:50] Ethan: I mean, it doesn't have as many fuck words.

[1:04:53] Jess McEnally: No, it doesn't, but it also has like all the same weird campy shit, like mixed in with stuff that they want you to take seriously.

[1:05:02] Ethan: Alright, Ethan. If you are gonna ever watch Spider-Man Turn Off the Dark, you have to prelude it with reading Song of Spider-Man by Glenn Berger, who wrote the book and explains exactly how the good ideas that they had originally became what they became slowly over time and over people having cold feet over things. It's a great book. It reads like butter. You're like, you'll get it done in one night.

[1:05:28] Ethan: Yes. I'll I'll read that.

[1:05:31] Jess McEnally: Yes. And then you watch the version, the bootlegs that are out there, and you'll be like, uh, okay. This is what they were trying to do. It's not even like they're trying to do. Oh, I see how it became this. I don't like this, and this will never be good. I see why it's terrible. They tried to make something good once five years before this played. Once upon a time, this didn't suck.

[1:05:56] Jess McEnally: Okay. Alright, guys, we gotta wrap this up. We got we got stuff to do tonight.

[1:06:01] Ethan: Alright, super friends. Let's team up and figure out what our thoughts were.

[1:06:06] Jess McEnally: Okay. Before that, now you guys have what what DC superhero are we all? Um, I'm gonna let Breeze start.

[1:06:14] Ethan: Which DC superhero?

[1:06:16] Jess McEnally: Yeah, you can't be a Marvel hero.

[1:06:18] Ethan: Okay, well, hold on. I don't know DC superheroes.

[1:06:20] Jess McEnally: You're talking to the wrong Batgirl right here.

[1:06:23] Ethan: Then you're Batgirl.

[1:06:24] Jess McEnally: Batgirl is a DC superhero.

[1:06:26] Ethan: Okay, I know, but I'm not Batgirl. Hold on. You're Batwoman then.

[1:06:31] Jess McEnally: Is there also a Batwoman?

[1:06:33] Ethan: There is, isn't there?

[1:06:34] Jess McEnally: There has to be.

[1:06:35] Ethan: There is if they've they've taken like every version of the word man and they've turned it into the battery.

[1:06:41] Jess McEnally: I'm a bat they them.

[1:06:48] Ethan: Batman, Bat Boy, uh, Batgirl, Batwoman.

[1:06:53] Jess McEnally: Bat boy's a musical, so let's let's be clear there.

[1:06:56] Ethan: Bat boy is a hero as well.

[1:06:57] Jess McEnally: I mean, superhero. Someone go before me.

[1:07:00] Ethan: Hold on. Um, all right. I think um I want to. Just to tell me what hero what he thinks I am. I don't want to pick for others.

[1:07:09] Andrew: That sucks.

[1:07:09] Ethan: No, I'm Shazam.

[1:07:10] Andrew: Fuck that.

[1:07:11] Ethan: You don't get to be Shazam.

[1:07:12] Andrew: Shazam's a little boy.

[1:07:14] Ethan: You're you are not a little boy.

[1:07:15] Andrew: I'm a little boy at heart.

[1:07:17] Ethan: If you say Shazam, do you turn into a little boy and like this is your superpowered form?

[1:07:24] Andrew: That's really sad if this is a super powered version of myself. Let me just say that.

[1:07:30] Ethan: Um, no, I'm Shazam. Andrew, your turn.

[1:07:32] Andrew: Uh, I want to be Aquaman.

[1:07:35] Ethan: Yeah.

[1:07:36] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:07:37] Ethan: Why?

[1:07:38] Andrew: I want to know why.

[1:07:40] Andrew: Uh, because stay hydrated. I don't know. In in the Justice League one, he's kind of like, you know, buff and it's got long hair. That's about all I care about.

[1:07:55] Ethan: Alright, Easter.

[1:07:56] Andrew: I would like to be oh, sorry, I figured it out. I want to be cyborg.

[1:08:00] Ethan: Perfect. A plus.

[1:08:02] Ethan: Uh I'll be blue beetle.

[1:08:07] Andrew: There you go. I'll I'll play the hipster hero.

[1:08:10] Ethan: Beetle Beetle.

[1:08:16] Andrew: You obviously don't know every word to the Sweetie Todd musical.

[1:08:21] Ethan: Okay, yeah. Got it. There, yeah.

[1:08:23] Andrew: No, that's actually I do, and that's why I picked Blue Beetle because Sweetie Todd, yeah.

[1:08:28] Ethan: Alright, everyone. What is our overall thoughts on holy musical Batman and our cheese rating? Ethan, you're first.

[1:08:34] Ethan: I'm going to give it a plus and minus eight. I think it is a highly, highly polarizing musical. I think that what it does well, it does very well, and what it doesn't do well is uh intensely racist. Um if I were to give this a cheese, I would give it a bat cheese. It is an all-purpose utility cheese that Batman keeps in his utility belt.

[1:09:06] Andrew: Perfect. Attracts mice. Alright, Bree, you're next.

[1:09:12] Bree: I am thinking a craft singles. Um good on grilled cheese. Oof. And maybe some a McDonald's burger, but really wrong and uh and anywhere else. So it's good for camp, but not good for much else.

[1:09:33] Andrew: I get I get what you're trying to say.

[1:09:35] Bree: Yes. Right. Alright, I want to go next.

[1:09:38] Andrew: You're up next, Andrew.

[1:09:39] Andrew: Alright. Um, I feel like this is uh mildly funny. It's got some jokes that haven't aged horribly. You know, the king of backhanded compliments, Andrew DeWolf. Yeah, I don't know. I wish it was a little more serious. I feel like I've seen a lot of like super goofy versions of Batman, especially now. And Batman is probably the most parodied superhero of all time. Like, I don't know. It's not terrible though. It's uh it's got some funny stuff in it and some racist stuff in it, which is not good. Uh, and I'm gonna give it uh it's not even really a type of cheese, but I'm gonna give it Alfredo, because Alf Alfred get it.

[1:10:23] Ethan: I get that. I'll I'll accept that answer.

[1:10:25] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, okay, I guess that's up to me. I I like it. I don't love it, and I just know that StarKid can do better, especially in the music department. I feel like they really kind of just like compare to Twisted, man, you know.

[1:10:39] Ethan: Well, compared to Twisted, all their Harry Potter stuff, and like the guy who didn't like musicals in Black Friday. I'd even put this below both of those, and I know you didn't love those either, Andrew.

[1:10:50] Andrew: But I like Black Friday a lot more than music.

[1:10:53] Ethan: Well, Black Friday is quite good, but Twisted is just perfect.

[1:10:56] Andrew: Yeah. Twisted is their best work that I've seen.

[1:11:00] Ethan: I have not seen the Harry Potter stuff, so the Harry Potter stuff is good. It's like baby pictures. Like, this is really good for what you were doing at the time, and like with the budget he had at the time, it's really really good.

[1:11:11] Andrew: Yeah. But you you can't hold that up to the quality of what they have when they're given a hundred thousand dollars through Kickstarter to make a project like Twisted. But so my cheese rating is a cheese called the Robin from Deer Creek. Um it is named after the wick Wisconsin State Bird, which returns each spring as a sign of the end of winter.

[1:11:33] Ethan: Robin sucks.

[1:11:35] Andrew: Robin does suck. But it goes well with um domestic beers, ales, and lagers, and has won many awards because cheese win awards now.

[1:11:46] Ethan: It's true. Do we get a candy pun? Can someone do a candy pun before we end this? I feel like we have to.

[1:11:52] Bree: Uh uh, what do we got?

[1:11:57] Ethan: You know, I liked that they use now and later. Now and later are my favorite candy.

[1:12:02] Bree: Yeah. I feel like they never get any respect.

[1:12:05] Ethan: Do you get?

[1:12:06] Bree: I get a few now and more later.

[1:12:10] Andrew: Alright, there we are. We got we got our pun there.

[1:12:14] Jess McEnally: Ethan, I know you've got a ton of things to promote out there. I love your work, and I'm always so glad to have you on here because you are a funny, very smart, very intelligent person that's like able to talk music and not make me feel dumb for not knowing it.

[1:12:27] Ethan: Oh, thank you.

[1:12:28] Jess McEnally: So tell us all about your stuff.

[1:12:30] Ethan: I uh I have a YouTube channel called Sideways. If you just type sideways into YouTube, it's a picture of a sideways altoclef. That's me. I talk a lot about music, specifically like film scores and light motifs and stuff like that, but I do uh every now and again uh stumble into the world of musicals and talk about musicals and musical film and stuff like that. Come check me out. Um I have a Patreon, I have a Twitter, I stream on Twitch at once every several months. So come on and critique how badly I play video games. Yeah, that's it. Thanks for having me on. I love it so much.

[1:13:04] Jess McEnally: Ethan, anytime you want to come back on, if you got something to say about a musical, you always have a home here, no matter when or where you're just you fit into this groove pretty well.

[1:13:13] Jess McEnally: I've got to ask a question before you go though.

[1:13:15] Ethan: Uh-huh.

[1:13:16] Jess McEnally: Why Altoquef?

[1:13:18] Ethan: Like, why are you the worst?

[1:13:21] Jess McEnally: Yeah.

[1:13:23] Ethan: No answer.

[1:13:24] Ethan: I I when I was coming up with a YouTube channel, I was looking for like things that'd be like read music, but yeah. Not be just like a blank music note or something like that. And so I saw an Altaclef and I was like, oh, that's something nobody really knows. And then I turned it on its angle. I was like, there it is. Alto Clef is just like just use trebleclef, but like lower it in octave, and it's basically the same range and everything. Altoclef is worthless. They need to get rid of it.

[1:13:50] Andrew: There are a lot of trombonists who disagree with you.

[1:14:07] Ethan: You phone euphonium's not better than trombone.

[1:14:09] Ethan: Trombone is a garbage instrument. Throw it away.

[1:14:09] Andrew: It is.

[1:14:10] Andrew: Oh my god, when I was in school, I used to uh we used to have huge debates about uh trombone versus euphonium and how terrible you phonium is better, uh tubo's better, it's not tubo's okay.

[1:14:10] Ethan: It's not and I mean, like though, it it kinda is though. Like sounds better.

[1:14:15] Andrew: Right. Hey Ethan, did you watch did you watch the last five years yet? I recommended it to you after your lay Miz episode.

[1:14:22] Ethan: It's on my to-do list. I still haven't seen it. Um if you understand the plot in any way better than Andrew, you've already wrong you've already won.

[1:14:30] Andrew: Oh, okay. Wonderful. Oh, actually, I have a question for you. Um, if you had to, how would you turn this musical into a Muppet show?

[1:14:40] Ethan: Oh, right, right. We have to do that. Um I want to see Batman as uh I want to see him as Fozzie, and I want to see Superman as Kermit.

[1:14:54] Andrew: Superman Kermit would be good.

[1:14:56] Ethan: Yes, but I want to see Alfred played by um Oh shit. Alfred has to be a guest, dude.

[1:15:03] Andrew: No, no, Alfred has to be what's his name, but I can't America Man.

[1:15:07] Ethan: Oh Sam Eagle.

[1:15:12] Andrew: Uh you've got you've got a lot of villain roles to fill, and not not a lot of Muppets to use for all of those.

[1:15:20] Ethan: Sweetums would be Sweet Tooth.

[1:15:22] Andrew: Of course. So um Scarecrow.

[1:15:26] Ethan: I don't you could put some.

[1:15:28] Andrew: Swedish fish.

[1:15:30] Ethan: No, no, no, no. Scarecrow, you'd want to put uh uh Uncle uh what's his name? Uncle Death or Swedish chef. I don't even remember what his name is.

[1:15:35] Andrew: Uncle Death?

[1:15:39] Ethan: He's so spooky, Muppet.

[1:15:41] Andrew: I know who you're talking about, but I don't remember his name.

[1:15:44] Ethan: Totally lost. The Muppet Lord goes deep.

[1:15:46] Andrew: Muppet lore goes very, very deep.

[1:15:49] Ethan: But there's not a lot of women, which is the problem.

[1:15:51] Andrew: That is the problem.

[1:15:52] Ethan: They're all chickens.

[1:15:53] Andrew: All women are chickens.

[1:15:55] Ethan: All women are chickens or Miss Piggy. That's like the only and Miss Piggy clones.

[1:16:01] Andrew: Yeah, or the weird sexy Miss Piggy they added for the new Muppet TV show.

[1:16:06] Ethan: I'm sorry, Miss Piggy. Did you just wait, sexy Miss Pop Miss Miss Piggy? Did I hear that?

[1:16:10] Andrew: Well, not for the new no, it's not the new Muppet show anymore, because now there's a new new one.

[1:16:14] Ethan: Yeah, they got the new new Disney Plus one. But I'm talking about the one they had on ABC.

[1:16:18] Andrew: Muppets Muppets the Office.

[1:16:19] Ethan: Yeah, the Muppets the Office where Kermit found a new pig woman and she's got a smaller nose and she's fuckable.

[1:16:27] Andrew: Yeah. Have I been living under a rock? What the fuck is going on?

[1:16:30] Ethan: And Fozzie accidentally sends signs up for like grinder gay porn, and he's like, Look, they were looking for bears, but that wasn't right, but it wasn't.

[1:16:39] Andrew: Is it like millennial muppets? Is that the ideal?

[1:16:41] Bree: Please, Bree, show us a picture of the new pig pig.

[1:16:45] Bree: I'm already working on it. Hold on. She's on it.

[1:16:47] Ethan: Ethan, you have to see this fuckable pig.

[1:16:50] Andrew: You need to fuck this pig.

[1:16:56] Ethan: Oh god. Okay, if I was gonna turn holy musical Batman into some kind of Muppet show?

[1:17:01] Ethan: Yes, I would I would Avenue cue it.

[1:17:04] Andrew: Wait. There she is.

[1:17:07] Bree: Oh my god.

[1:17:11] Ethan: Oh my god.

[1:17:14] Andrew: It's a person.

[1:17:16] Ethan: What the fuck? They made a fuckable Miss Piggy.

[1:17:19] Andrew: Am I wrong? Is did I describe it incorrectly, guys?

[1:17:22] Ethan: The related images. Which actress does she look the most like?

[1:17:32] Andrew: Why does Kermit want to have sex with pigs?

[1:17:34] Ethan: Why?

[1:17:36] Andrew: Don't kink shame him.

[1:17:38] Ethan: Frogs don't fuck pigs.

[1:17:39] Andrew: She's got glasses!

[1:17:40] Ethan: Okay. Why?

[1:17:45] Andrew: Don't scroll too far here. We're gonna see some things.

[1:17:50] Ethan: Wait, why? What purpose does this serve?

[1:17:56] Andrew: It's to make Miss Piggy jealous of Kermit's new person.

[1:18:01] Ethan: There's like what two girls that are Muppets? There's the yeah, yeah.

[1:18:06] Andrew: Oh my god.

[1:18:09] Ethan: Oh mess.

[1:18:10] Andrew: Oh my god. I can't do this anymore.

[1:18:13] Ethan: I don't know how you didn't know this is this existed.

[1:18:17] Andrew: What do you think she has her own category on Pornhub?

[1:18:24] Ethan: Yes. No, n wait. Hold on.

[1:18:27] Andrew: She looks like she does.

[1:18:29] Ethan: Denise.

[1:18:30] Andrew: She has an OnlyFans, at least.

[1:18:32] Ethan: She definitely has an OnlyFans. And Kermit has to deal with that.

[1:18:35] Andrew: Kermit doesn't have a deal with that.

[1:18:37] Ethan: Kermit runs it.

[1:18:40] Andrew: Oh and welcome to Denise's OnlyFans.

[1:18:49] Jess McEnally: You know who definitely has an OnlyFans? Our wonderful patrons. Thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese, or on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals. Our Patreon is Musicals with Cheese. Come join us over there. Our Instagram is also Musicals with Cheese. Our YouTube page as well. Um, please email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. We haven't had many positive emails lately, so if you could send us something nice, that would that would help us a lot. Um this show is produced by our wonderful producer Brianna Jones. Thank you so much for being with us. Um thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on our platform where we talk about how much Kermit would fuck this sexy pig. Um Ethan, thank you so much for joining us. It really was a joy today.

[1:19:37] Ethan: Thank you for having me. I love learning about new Muppets.

[1:19:40] Jess McEnally: So is is she gonna be added to your Muppets spank bank?

[1:19:44] Ethan: Oh, absolutely not. Putting that one up on your plasma, having yourself a jack attack.

[1:19:51] Andrew: Oh god. Ethan, is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this all up?

[1:19:57] Ethan: No, I'm good. I've learned enough today.

[1:19:59] Bree: No, I'm cutting you guys off since this time.

[1:20:05] Jess McEnally: Andrew, anything you want to say?

[1:20:07] Andrew: Martha!

[1:20:08] Jess McEnally: Martha!

[1:20:09] Andrew: Why did you say that name?

[1:20:10] Jess McEnally: Why did you say that?

[1:20:12] Andrew: Where did she say that name?

[1:20:14] Jess McEnally: Where is she?

[1:20:15] Andrew: Where's Martha?

[1:20:16] Jess McEnally: It's his mother's name.

[1:20:18] Andrew: Where's Martha?

[1:20:21] Jess McEnally: Alright. We'll see you guys next time on Musicals with Cheese.