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[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:02] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:03] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones.

[0:05] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew and Bri to like musical theater. How are we all doing today, guys?

[0:14] Brianna Jones: Oh, well, you know, I'm very excited to talk about the ethical implications of child labor on the early Victorian era Britain.

[0:19] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm very excited to just listen to y'all talk about that.

[0:22] Jesse McAnally: I want more.

[0:24] Brianna Jones: What do you want, Jess?

[0:26] Jesse McAnally: More!

[0:27] Andrew DeWolf: More what?

[0:28] Jesse McAnally: What the fuck was he eating?

[0:30] Andrew DeWolf: Food, glorious food.

[0:32] Brianna Jones: Food, glorious food.

[0:34] Jesse McAnally: That's like the only good thing to come from the show, isn't it? That one song?

[0:38] Andrew DeWolf: I disagree. There's a couple other ones.

[0:40] Brianna Jones: I'll be honest. The only two songs I can still remember are Food, Glorious Food and Be Back Soon for whatever reason.

[0:47] Jesse McAnally: In case you hadn't figured it out by our very subtle clues and the backgrounds, if you're on Patreon video, this week we are talking about Oliver.

[1:02] Jesse McAnally: Oliver is a British musical with music and lyrics by Lionel Bart. The musical is based upon the 1838 novel Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens. It premiered in the West End in 1960, enjoying a long run and successful long runs on Broadway, tours, and revivals after being brought to the US by producer David Merrick. Major London revivals played from 1977 to 1980, 1994 to 1998, 2008 to 2011, and on tour in the UK from 2011 to 2013. Additionally, its 1968 film adaptation, directed by Carol Reed, was highly successful, winning six Academy Awards, including Best Picture. Oliver received thousands of performances in British schools, becoming one of the most popular school performances ever put on. In 1963, Lionel Bart received the Tony Award for Best Original Score. Many songs are well known to the public. Oliver was one of eight UK musicals featured on Royal Mail Stamps issued in February 2011, which is wacky.

[2:41] Jesse McAnally: And yeah, it's relatively iconic. I feel like we all had a general idea of what this was before we even like we're sitting down to watch it.

[2:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, I'm more familiar with Oliver and Company, you know, that adaptation of Oliver, which I don't even know if you can really call it an adaptation of Oliver. It's like barely.

[2:56] Brianna Jones: We're hoping to do a commentary on that soon because Andrew's really passionate about that.

[3:02] Andrew DeWolf: OK, I owned a VHS of that movie and basically only that movie for like a long time and I watched the shit out of it.

[3:07] Brianna Jones: Is it good?

[3:08] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's fine.

[3:10] Jesse McAnally: And let us say right at the top, this is a Patreon request from Joseph Evans Green, one of our recurring patrons, high tier patrons, who also this is a second request. His first one was We Will Rock You. So you're two for two here, Joseph.

[3:21] Andrew DeWolf: Joseph, what are you what are you doing, man? What's going on, big guy?

[3:25] Brianna Jones: You and your dream coaches live in your best life. Joseph, we got to talk, OK? What is this?

[3:31] Jesse McAnally: So, Jess.

[3:33] Brianna Jones: Yes.

[3:34] Jesse McAnally: What do you think about Oliver?

[3:36] Brianna Jones: Oh, you're pulling that shit on me.

[3:38] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah. It's your turn.

[3:40] Andrew DeWolf: What what is it that I texted you right when I finished it before you watched it?

[3:44] Jesse McAnally: I think you just said it was boring, but I can't quite remember.

[3:48] Andrew DeWolf: And I stand by that. It took me three attempts to watch the film. I watched the film and then I watched a stage production because it took me a good while to find that. And then I listened to the cast recording of the more recent I believe it was the 2009 London revival of Rowan Atkinson.

[4:06] Brianna Jones: How much of that time were you asleep?

[4:08] Andrew DeWolf: Like I survived it. I listened to it when you're on a bike and you're going like 13 miles an hour. It's like, OK, I stay awake for this.

[4:14] Jesse McAnally: OK, OK.

[4:15] Andrew DeWolf: And it's dull to say the least. There's not very much that happens. All of the thing about how Dickens had to write books in his day is much like Victor Hugo with Les Mis. He was written by are paid by the page. So the more he wrote and the more meandering subplots he would write, the more he would get paid.

[4:34] Brianna Jones: Yeah.

[4:35] Andrew DeWolf: So that's why you jump from little boys to girl and bar to like robbers and artful dodgers and all that shit all over the place. No structure.

[4:43] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And it's just it is a slog to get through because there are so many characters that have no purpose. I mean, we keep cutting back to these characters only for the climax to be between like the town folk and this one guy that we've barely seen.

[5:01] Andrew DeWolf: Like the main villain, I think, has maybe one song in the entire show and it's in the second act.

[5:06] Brianna Jones: But he has a presence, Andrew.

[5:08] Andrew DeWolf: No, he feels his presence.

[5:10] Brianna Jones: No, he fucking doesn't. He does not.

[5:13] Andrew DeWolf: So, Andrew, tell me what happens in Oliver.

[5:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oliver is a boy who works at a workhouse. I assume he's forced to work there or he's like an orphan or something.

[5:20] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, he's an orphan. So it's it's like, you know,

[5:23] Andrew DeWolf: and you hate orphans.

[5:24] Jesse McAnally: I do hate orphans. So they do deserve the workhouse. That's fine. But, you know, he doesn't like the workhouse, which is also fine.

[5:30] Andrew DeWolf: Then the people that run the workhouse like sell him off to a grave digger.

[5:34] Jesse McAnally: If I'm not mistaken, basically.

[5:36] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And then he doesn't like them. So he runs away from them and then he meets like a child thief gang run by a guy named Fagan, and he kind of rides with them for a little bit until he robs some richer couple and gets caught.

[5:51] Jesse McAnally: No, he doesn't get caught like another boy like robs him and then like blames it on Oliver.

[5:56] Andrew DeWolf: OK, yeah. But he's the one that gets blamed for it. He gets he gets caught for the robbery.

[6:01] Jesse McAnally: He gets what he did. He gets the yeah.

[6:04] Andrew DeWolf: And then the rich couple is like, we're going to take care of him because I don't know, we just want to, I guess.

[6:09] Jesse McAnally: And then the whole time there's this guy, Bill Sykes, who is also part of Fagan's gang kind of eventually shows up.

[6:14] Andrew DeWolf: And there's another character, Nancy, who I haven't even mentioned yet, but she and Oliver talk sometimes, I think.

[6:20] Jesse McAnally: And she's dating Bill Sykes because she loves Bill Sykes, even though Bill Sykes is like actually abusive and horrible. He like physically beats the shit out of her.

[6:29] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Like so, you know, that's cool. Bill Sykes is the bad guy. So at least there's that.

[6:34] Jesse McAnally: And then Bill Sykes kidnaps Oliver for some reason.

[6:38] Andrew DeWolf: They didn't want Oliver to tell on them where he's where they're like little child army is.

[6:43] Jesse McAnally: Oh, OK.

[6:44] Andrew DeWolf: Like, honestly, I didn't even this. Once you get to the second act, I like barely even followed what was happening. Bill Sykes kidnaps Oliver, I guess, for that reason. He didn't want them to find Fagan's hideout.

[6:56] Jesse McAnally: And then Bill Sykes hangs himself from an accident.

[6:59] Andrew DeWolf: No, he gets shot.

[7:01] Jesse McAnally: No, he gets shot. And then like he was trying to cross between two beams and then get shot in the process while he has a rope around him.

[7:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And then he falls and he's hanging from the rope and then they shoot him again.

[7:13] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And then that's just a double tap it.

[7:15] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[7:16] Jesse McAnally: Oh, and he killed Nancy.

[7:18] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah. He beats Nancy to death for no reason. She does not. That is not a character that needs to be beaten to death.

[7:25] Jesse McAnally: What happens in the book?

[7:26] Andrew DeWolf: I look that up. It does. That's in the book.

[7:29] Jesse McAnally: So Ebenezer Scrooge deserves to be beaten to death.

[7:32] Andrew DeWolf: The thing is, in the book, there's like an explicit like Fagan lies and says that Nancy is going to betray Sykes.

[7:38] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. I don't think that's in here.

[7:40] Andrew DeWolf: No, Bill Sykes just kills her for no real reason.

[7:43] Jesse McAnally: And then he killed her because she was helping Oliver.

[7:46] Andrew DeWolf: Like, yeah, well, you know, Oliver really didn't do anything either. But, you know, it was more like you, you threatened my dick size woman by like, you know, standing up to me. Fuck you. I'm going to beat you to death with this symbol of my hubris.

[8:02] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. There's also some stuff in there about this other couple, which I think is the couple that runs the workhouse and is so fucking ridiculous and irrelevant. And it just shows up like even towards the end of the show, they're still showing up and they have nothing to do with fucking anything.

[8:18] Andrew DeWolf: And I don't even. And then the show just ends. It's just like, oh, it's over.

[8:23] Jesse McAnally: So, Andrew, I posted your initial reaction to the end of Oliver on Twitter.

[8:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[8:28] Jesse McAnally: And ask people to guess what it was. They eventually got it because Emily Clark, friend of the show, Emily Clark, basically was like, oh, this is the only show it can be. And then put that out there. And one of our fans basically said, yeah, something was resolved. Andrew's wrong.

[8:43] Andrew DeWolf: What was it?

[8:44] Jesse McAnally: The conflict of Oliver versus homelessness resolved.

[8:48] Andrew DeWolf: He wasn't homeless at the start of the show, though. He was he was at a workhouse.

[8:52] Jesse McAnally: It's basically he had a house, not a home.

[8:55] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, yeah, but if you want to argue that he was homeless, he wasn't homeless like he was even given he was at two different homes. He was even sold off to another home. He just didn't like that home. So he ran away like you can't say that like, oh, at the start, he's homeless. And then at the end, he's not like he doesn't become homeless until like midway through the show.

[9:13] Jesse McAnally: What do you think of the character of Fagan, who is like one of Dickens most iconic characters for God knows why?

[9:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. If you go to his Wikipedia page, there's a whole lot of stuff about anti-Semitism. So that's really cool.

[9:25] Jesse McAnally: What? Please elaborate on that, sir.

[9:28] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, you want to help us with this Fagan on Wikipedia?

[9:31] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Fagan on Wikipedia. Let's let's fit. Why is that he anti-Semitic?

[9:36] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe I don't understand. I didn't read the book and I'm not pretending to.

[9:40] Jesse McAnally: Is it is his character Jewish?

[9:42] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, yeah, he wants money, but.

[9:45] Jesse McAnally: OK. Literally, if you look up on the Wikipedia page and look at the look at the watercolor that was painted in 1889 of this character, is his name literally Fagan the Jew? Did he literally looks like it? What is that caricature, the smiling merchant or whatever? Merchant of Venice, whatever it is, it's like the really fucking racist. Like, do you see that?

[10:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's a racist.

[10:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[10:09] Andrew DeWolf: That's kind of what he looks like in the show, though, isn't it?

[10:12] Jesse McAnally: I trim the beard a bit.

[10:14] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe I.

[10:15] Jesse McAnally: Wow.

[10:16] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe I just wasn't thinking anti-Semitism when I was watching this children's musical.

[10:21] Jesse McAnally: OK, well, while I was watching, there's an entire Wikipedia page called Racism in the work of Charles Dickens.

[10:27] Andrew DeWolf: Holy shit.

[10:28] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Other than that, though, we'll go we'll go pay on that because I mean, that's that's one thing. But in the musical, it's not really played up that way. So to be fair.

[10:38] Andrew DeWolf: But I don't quite understand why he's so popular. He really should be the main villain. They should just do away with the Bill Sykes character and just have it be Fagin as the villain.

[10:47] Jesse McAnally: But you I feel like they want Fagin to be more like a Tenardier like character. I know this predates Les Mis by many years, but.

[10:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but like Fagin himself is a thief, which, OK, if you want to argue that like, you know, thievery is not necessarily a villain thing. Fine. But he also is abusing children to do the thieving for him. So, you know, that's that's still child labor.

[11:09] Jesse McAnally: Can I talk once again about the anti-Semitism of this character?

[11:13] Andrew DeWolf: Sure. What do you got?

[11:15] Jesse McAnally: So the composer of the show, Lionel Bart, he wrote the book, he wrote the music, wrote the lyrics. He is a Jewish man and he wrote the songs for the character with a Jewish rhythm and Jewish orchestration, basically embracing it and trying to reframe it. In spite of this, Jewish playwright Julia Pascal believes that performing the show today is still inappropriate, an example of a minority acting on a stereotype to please a host society, saying that U.S. Jews are not exposed to the constant low level anti-Semitism that filters through British society.

[12:01] Andrew DeWolf: But in contrast, David Schneider, who studied it with for a Ph.D. in Yiddish, found the Dickens novel wherein Fagin is simply the Jew is a difficult read, but saw Fagin in the musical as a complex character who is not the baddie. So there's still a lot of debate going on about that.

[12:17] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's definitely interesting. And I think the musical tones it down. I mean, I haven't read the novel, obviously, but yeah, we let's say like we have no history of the show.

[12:27] Andrew DeWolf: I specifically do not. We were given this as a patron request and we're kind of like, it was boring.

[12:32] Jesse McAnally: Funnily enough, it's actually in the Disney version, Oliver and Company, which is the one I'm actually most familiar with. Fagin is the good guy, like the hero.

[12:41] Andrew DeWolf: Bill Sykes is portrayed as like a mafia boss who is abusing Fagin and Fagin owes him money, basically.

[12:48] Jesse McAnally: And also they do away with the whole child labor ethics because it's their dogs. So instead it's like a dog fighting ring.

[12:55] Andrew DeWolf: I haven't seen the movie, but I'm assuming the dogs want to help him.

[12:58] Jesse McAnally: So it's kind of the dogs want to fight. They're like Pokemon.

[13:02] Andrew DeWolf: That's what Michael Vick said in court.

[13:05] Jesse McAnally: They don't fight. They still steal.

[13:08] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that was a tangent and a half, but I feel like we all learned something there. Not going to lie.

[13:12] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. You know, I did a little research for this one.

[13:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah. You brought your a game.

[14:38] Andrew: Here. But Fagin as a character, like I don't see him as like evil or anything like that. I mean, like from the point of view there, he's nice to the kids and all that.

[14:51] Jess: Yeah, I think really the argument that could be best made against him is that, you know, he is abusing children because it is, I mean, it is still child labor, which I think we can all agree is wrong, whether it's criminal labor or non-criminal labor. It is still wrong. And that's kind of the worst thing that he does. I think in the context of the show, thievery is not really seen as that bad. So because it's got a Robin Hood mentality, like they're stealing from the rich. So really what's bad about him is the same thing that's bad about the other. What is his name? Bumble or whatever the fuck?

[15:28] Andrew: Yeah. House like it's basically just kind of like the same thing. And I honestly think it's more fun to watch.

[15:34] Jess: Yeah, I think you could even if you planned out the show a little more than just kind of throwing shit at a wall, you could have like a Fagin and Bumble kind of point counterpoint kind of thing where they're kind of the same one in the same, but doing different things. I don't know. Whatever. So let's talk about Lionel Bart for a minute, the guy that wrote the book, the lyrics, the music, everything.

[15:55] Andrew: Sure. That is very rare in the theater community, for one. Like the only examples that are coming to the top of my head is like Lin-Manuel Miranda and Hamilton and Jason Robert Brown in My Marriage is a Sham. And I cheated a lot. The musical the last five years.

[16:12] Jess: Yeah. Which are both. Well, not both Hamilton's longer, but the last five years is like a short like one act, isn't it?

[16:18] Andrew: Yes. And I'm sure there's more. But those are the only two that really come to my head because there really is a focus on the lyricist and book writer and the songwriter. Like even Sondheim, as much as we love his work here, he has never written his own book.

[16:32] Jess: Yeah. So this was a real labor of love by Lionel Bart. And fun fact, despite all like we know of this musical, like even if you weren't in this podcast, you know, this musical exists.

[16:45] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I've heard I think Food Glorious Food itself is a pretty big, like mainstream pop thing. I've heard that song for sure. It's in it's in Ice Age 3, I'm pretty sure.

[16:57] Jess: Maybe two. It might be Ice Age 2. I can't quite remember. But more or less, he died without earning a cent off of this.

[17:02] Andrew: Seriously?

[17:03] Jess: Yeah. Because like, you know, theater is a finicky thing, especially in the 60s.

[17:07] Andrew: Damn. A real passion project, huh?

[17:13] Jess: Yeah. This is like a real big thing. He earned like 16 pounds a minute for the show. And that's it. A one-time payment. He got no royalties and he died relatively young at like age 68 in 1999.

[17:24] Andrew: Damn, he never made any money. He's gonna hire himself a fucking lawyer.

[17:30] Jess: Jesus Christ. Yeah, it's fucked up. But the fact is you've got his songs that live on. And I feel like the songs really do live up. But I don't mean to talk shit about the dead. But I feel like this could have dealt with a book writer to come in and, you know, fix it all up.

[17:40] Andrew: Can we talk about just how many fucking characters there are in this goddamn show? I mean, who we got? You want to list all the named characters?

[17:51] Jess: Okay, well, starting from who's introduced right away. I mean, Oliver and then Mr. Bumble, the workhouse owner, the woman there. What's her name?

[17:59] Andrew: Widow something.

[18:01] Jess: Widow Corny.

[18:06] Andrew: Yeah. Then there's Mr. Sourberry and Mrs. Sourberry, who are the funeral home people. They have a work hand that comes in for like one scene who is also.

[18:15] Jess: Yep. Also a named character. Then we have the Artful Dodger and Nancy and Bill Sykes, who are all part of Fagin's gang. So there's like four more people right there.

[18:30] Andrew: Don't forget old Sally, the nurse at Oliver's birth.

[18:36] Jess: Oh, yeah. And then what are the name of the rich family? You get the Bedouins, both of them as well. Mr. and Mrs. Bedouin.

[18:41] Andrew: Um, Grimwig, the foppish doctor. And then the beetle is a character as well.

[18:49] Jess: Yes. So how many fucking characters is that?

[18:54] Andrew: Too damn many. But the thing is, we remember most of them.

[18:59] Jess: Um, barely, though, is the thing. And some of them like some of them come back and some of them just don't.

[19:05] Andrew: Yeah, I think the Sourberries don't come back. I don't think the Bumbles come back, though. They get married and they have like us. They have their own song, don't they?

[19:10] Jess: Yep.

[19:11] Andrew: Oh, my God. What we're saying is, and a lot of that stuff is cut in the movie, like I will say that.

[19:15] Jess: Well, it should be.

[19:20] Andrew: This is the thing where I do not enjoy the show as a whole. I do not think it works in the show. I think the movie works better as boring as the movie is. I think the problem with Oliver Twist, as far as I can tell, and this is based off this adaptation and the Disney adaptation that I've seen, is Oliver is not the main character.

[19:42] Jess: No. And there really isn't a main character. I mean, the closest thing, like structurally, the musical don't make sense. Let's talk about that for a second.

[19:48] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, there is no there is no like. We got two opening numbers.

[19:54] Jess: Basically, you have Food Glorious Food, which is an introduction to the workhouse, and that's followed up with Oliver, an introduction to Oliver. Pick one. You could have one or the other. You can't have both.

[20:03] Andrew: I think Food Glorious Food is the I want song.

[20:09] Jess: I disagree. I disagree because we got like five songs later to Where is Love, which should be the I want song. And the movie restructures to be the second song ish if you consider Food Glorious Food slash Oliver, Oliver to be the same one.

[20:23] Andrew: But the problem is that song is like fucking 30 minutes into the show. So I don't think you can count it. But it is the I want song for all and it is the first song that can be considered really.

[20:34] Jess: And I want song. It's also the first song that only Oliver sings.

[20:39] Andrew: Yes, is the first real solo in Oliver is supposed to be the main character. I think at least this show is structured as if he is, even though he really doesn't do anything. He just kind of runs around and shit happens to him.

[20:52] Jess: He reminds me of Pinocchio where he's just dragged from thing to thing. Dumb, dumbly.

[20:57] Andrew: Yeah. But even Pinocchio has like an actual goal that he's working towards.

[21:03] Jess: It does. Yeah. He wants to be a real boy. I mean, I guess, you know, that makes sense. I mean, if they can't, that show will not show that like movie. They kind of just fucking wizarded away and that at the end. But, you know, he still was working towards that or trying to in the book. He gets like hanged by the neck and then he just won't die.

[21:23] Andrew: Well, yeah, he's not a real boy. He can't die.

[21:27] Jess: Yeah. That book's real messed up. I'm excited for Guillermo del Toro's musical stop motion adaptation. I think that's going to be great.

[21:32] Andrew: I think all fairy tales are really fucked up and Disney has kind of ruined them.

[21:39] Jess: Yeah. All right. It's time for our favorite segment of the show. It's Brie views where she compares reviews of critics to what Chastening interrupts to say and see where they line up.

[21:46] Bree: Brie’s views. Roger Ebert reviewed the film, saying the weakness in the stage musical Oliver is that they made too much of Oliver and didn't quite know what to do with him. Reed establishes Oliver as a bright, attractive young boy, gives him some scenes so we get to care about him and admire his pluck, and then focuses his movie on the characters who are really interesting. Fagin, Bill Sykes, the Artful Dodger, and Nancy. The movie belongs so much to Fagin and the Dodger, in fact, that when we see them marching down the road in their last scene, we think the movie should stop right there instead of giving us a final look at Oliver.

[22:30] Andrew: Describing the 1984 revival, Frank Rich of the New York Times stated Oliver is not unpleasant, just dull. Indeed, the first 40-odd minutes of the current production is as afflicted by rigor mortis as the stiffs in the Undertaker's Emporium where the orphaned hero briefly works. The evening gathers some steam once its two savvy stars, Ron Moody, Fagin, and Patti LuPone, Nancy, make their belated entrances. But even then, Oliver never becomes arousing. The only sustained outpouring of joy occurs in the full cast song melody of The Curtain Call. At a critic's preview, the audience's biggest hand was accorded to the villain Bill Sykes' dog.

[23:32] Jess: Did he, though? Like, we barely see him interact with those other characters.

[24:02] Andrew: 50,000 dollars. And this guy, Fagin, decides he's gonna pretend to be Oliver's real parents. And then throws him off a bridge.

[24:10] Jess: Yep. Then Poonjam comes down and saves the day.

[24:14] Andrew: Okay, honestly, though, is Annie just, uh, Oliver, but they cut out the first act, essentially?

[24:19] Jess: It's Oliver, but better, Andrew.

[24:21] Andrew: It kind of is, though, and I hate to say that.

[24:26] Jess: Yeah, I was about to say, I didn't think we'd ever come to a thing where we compared anything positively to Annie.

[24:29] Andrew: The thing with Annie, though, is they don't have, Annie doesn't have Fagin, and Fagin is a fun character.

[24:34] Jess: But it has Rooster, and he's a fun character.

[24:38] Andrew: That's true. Um, this is why I think that we should, we really should talk about Oliver and Company, because Oliver and Company makes Oliver into a cat that doesn't even fucking talk. Like, the entire show, it maybe has three fucking lines.

[24:52] Jess: What should I wear? Why should I care? Billy Joel is Dodger, like.

[25:00] Andrew: Why is he just Dodger? Is he no longer artful because he's a dog?

[25:04] Jess: Yes, dogs cannot be artful because they can't play piano.

[25:07] Andrew: Because they're too fartful. Alright, on that note, let's go on to a mid-show announcement.

[25:16] Jess: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a shill at you. Um, yeah, like, we've got a Patreon, and we also have a lot of people on there, and what do we get from Patreon? You get commentaries, you get a weekly podcast that only the patrons get.

[25:30] Andrew: You get to see Jess fucking drunk as shit every month.

[25:36] Jess: No, no, no, no, that's not happening again. Please understand that I will never be.

[25:41] Andrew: So fucking wasted. I will say, I did run a poll after the first Patreon meetup. Everyone enjoyed it.

[25:50] Jess: So, if you guys want to have fun and play games with me, Andrew, Bree, and a special guest, once a month, come join our $10 and up tiers. Like, we got a lot of stuff. And we also have some brand new tiers on Patreon. $20, you can suggest a musical that me and Andrew do. Like, right now, we're only covering Oliver because Joseph Evan Green wanted us to do it. And it, yeah, thanks Joseph.

[26:14] Andrew: $50 if you stay on for one month at the $50 price point. You can make us read whatever you want on the podcast. One full paragraph, and we'll just say it. Like, you got to propose to your girlfriend? How about Andrew and I propose for you?

[26:30] Jess: Man, I can't think of a worse idea. We would fuck that up so bad.

[26:35] Andrew: You guys would probably break up immediately.

[26:38] Jess: You guys would say some inappropriate shit, and then, yeah, they'd break up.

[26:43] Andrew: $100, Andrew, and they get to be a guest on the show.

[26:47] Jess: You want to sit here and talk about a musical with me and Andrew, pay $100 for a full month, you can do it.

[26:52] Andrew: Jess will be drinking that entire month in anticipation.

[26:57] Jess: Literally, every day until I get there, and then I just can't talk. It's going to be great.

[27:01] Andrew: So who's currently on our Patreon, Andrew?

[27:04] Jess: Oh, let's see. We have quite a few. We've got Terry Needleman, Max Lunig, Benjamin Lerer, Lily Ackles, John Donah, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Hayley McDonald, Taskier, Fire of September, Mina Mineri, Monica Theroux, Brent Black, Hayley Murray, Allison Wonderland, B-Wave Flix, Nathaniel Stacey Coombe, Lunarox222, Irrigale, Druay, Whiter, Carrie Ahern, Christine Malmodel, Mezzanine Theater Diary, Mary Lou Choquette, Anne Nunnally, Cole Birchfield, John Vanals, Holysticality, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Grace, Andrew Van Baaarrrson, Emily Stack, Kyle Summer, Mr. B, Janae C, Kyle, Christina, Frances, Jessica A, Skyler, Liz Lim, Corey Wilmarth, Allison Stuller, Nothing is Certain Except Beth in Taxes, Retton Cullen, Thespian, Elizabeth Levengood, Victoria Tribble, Alex, Joseph Evans-Green, Waitin' the Wings, we know him, Jamie Holland, and Spectacle Machine.

[28:05] Andrew: They give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese and pay Bri and keep her listening to our nonsense once a week.

[28:14] Jess: And just know, with your contributions, you're making sure that Bri has a house over her head right now. Just think about that.

[28:20] Andrew: And I don't go hungry.

[28:24] Jess: But we do have one other way, if you'd like to support us, and you don't want to get nothing out of it. Not that you get nothing out of the Patreon.

[28:31] Andrew: I was about to say, they get a lot of shit out of our Patreon.

[28:33] Jess: But if you want something physical, you want to have something in your hands from it. We had a fucking merch store. Let's go.

[28:42] Andrew: We're selling so much shit on there.

[28:45] Jess: It is actually a lot of stuff. We got blankets, tote bags, t-shirts with a bunch of different designs. We've got masks.

[28:52] Andrew: Pet hoodies. I mean, come on. What do we not have here? And it's on teespring.com slash musicals with cheese store. Is that right?

[29:02] Jess: Yeah, something like that. I don't know. Apparently, remember like a few months ago when I was like, I don't want to be involved in this. I did it in a day because Andrew was so fucking lazy. He didn't ever do it.

[29:10] Andrew: Yeah, that's what it was.

[29:14] Jess: Alright. Yeah. Buy our shit and send us pictures of you wearing.

[29:18] Andrew: Yeah, we're excited to see people wearing it, and I'm gonna get myself one of those fucking blankets because they look damn nice.

[29:24] Jess: I know, that's like the first thing I knew I wanted.

[29:28] Bree: I want the tote bag.

[29:30] Andrew: The tote bag is cool.

[29:31] Jess: So I think I'm gonna order that.

[29:32] Andrew: Alright, well let's get back to the show then.

[29:39] Jess: Food, Glorious Food.

[29:40] Bree: Food, Glorious Food.

[29:41] Andrew: Is a weird song.

[29:43] Jess: To stop us from getting a thrill.

[29:46] Andrew: When we all close our eyes and imagine.

[29:52] Jess: Food, Glorious Food.

[29:56] Bree: Hot sausage and mustard.

[29:59] Andrew: Woah, we're in the mood.

[30:02] Bree: Cold jelly and custard.

[30:05] Jess: Peas, pudding and savourloys.

[30:08] Andrew: What next is the question?

[30:11] Bree: Rich gentlemen have it boys.

[30:15] Jess: What do you think of it as an opening number?

[30:17] Andrew: Bad opening number.

[30:19] Bree: It doesn't really make sense.

[30:21] Andrew: I mean, it makes sense, but it doesn't set anything up other than that they want food.

[30:26] Jess: Yes, and it's like, we gotta have all.

[30:29] Andrew: Logically, I understand why it's here.

[30:32] Jess: We gotta set up like all the artful Dodger boys that we're gonna see in act.

[30:36] Andrew: Later in the act and give them something else to do.

[30:39] Bree: Aside from saying, I'll do anything and all that.

[30:42] Jess: Be back soon.

[30:43] Andrew: Yeah, like we need to give them a little fun choral part in the opening part of the musical.

[30:49] Jess: I get it logistically.

[30:51] Andrew: Oliver is a much better opening number than this, which is just like, oh, we want food.

[30:56] Bree: And really, it's just aiming to hedge us up for when he says I want more.

[31:01] Jess: I also kind of feel like food, glorious food as a song is really fun.

[31:05] Andrew: But you could have had the thief gang sing it later in the show.

[31:09] Jess: Yes, you didn't have to put it here.

[31:12] Andrew: Like you could have fit it in somewhere else.

[31:14] Bree: And also, it's very fair for me to say this is very early on in the world of musical theater.

[31:20] Andrew: Like Oklahoma was only a few years before this and all that.

[31:23] Jess: Like this is still a musical theater in its infancy.

[31:27] Andrew: So when I say all these things, yeah, it's hard to see it.

[31:30] Bree: It's easy to say it like, what is it, 50 years later?

[31:33] Jess: Yeah.

[31:34] Andrew: What it does help with, though, is if you're trying to do a revival of this.

[31:39] Bree: Yes.

[31:40] Andrew: It might be OK to restructure a little bit.

[31:43] Jess: Apparently, Cameron Mackintosh is trying to remake this as a film starring Samantha Barks as Nancy and Stephen Daldry, the most boring director I've ever seen, directing.

[31:54] Andrew: So maybe he could do that.

[31:56] Bree: Yeah.

[31:57] Jess: I think a little bit of restructuring could help this show a lot, actually.

[32:00] Andrew: Well, you seem to like Oliver quite a bit.

[32:03] Jess: I don't even like the song.

[32:04] Andrew: I just think it works better as an opening number.

[32:06] Bree: Yeah.

[32:07] Jess: I don't think it's a particularly good song.

[32:09] Andrew: I think Food Glory's Food is more memorable as a song.

[32:12] Jess: But I think Oliver is better as an opening number to a musical titled Oliver.

[32:18] Bree: Oliver, Oliver, never before has a boy wanted more.

[32:22] Andrew: Oliver, Oliver, won't ask for more when he knows what's in store.

[32:27] Jess: There's a sore tea chimney, long overdue for a sweeping out, which will push him up.

[32:33] Andrew: And one day next year, with the rats, he'll come creeping out.

[32:37] Bree: Oliver, Oliver, what are they doing this terrible day?

[32:41] Andrew: Is it weird that like Oliver doesn't get his own songs till so late, though?

[32:47] Jess: Yes, it is.

[32:48] Andrew: And we just start we start focusing on Mr. Bumble, who is not a major character.

[32:53] Bree: Secondary character at best.

[32:55] Andrew: Like I wouldn't even call him secondary.

[32:59] Jess: Like and he gets the next like three songs.

[33:05] Andrew: It's a bad choice.

[33:07] Bree: And the movie corrects that by basically after Oliver.

[33:10] Andrew: There's just a little bit of boy for sale and then just straight into where his love and it works better.

[33:16] Jess: Yeah.

[33:17] Andrew: I mean, that's if I were looking at this, I think that would be the first thing I would do is just drop all the shit with Mr. Bumble.

[33:23] Bree: I would cut Mr. Bumble from the second act, too, because honestly, what the fuck is he even doing there?

[33:28] Andrew: What? Why get rid of this character?

[33:34] Jess: He's bringing the laughs.

[33:35] Andrew: He's bringing the chuckles.

[33:36] Bree: There is no laughs to be had when he's here.

[33:39] Andrew: I'm sorry.

[33:40] Jess: This really isn't a comedy show.

[33:41] Andrew: It's not that funny.

[33:42] Bree: What are you talking about?

[33:44] Andrew: A girl gets beaten to death.

[33:45] Bree: Hilarious.

[33:46] Jess: Honestly, y'all are missing Bree's face right now.

[33:53] Bree: Reading women isn't funny.

[33:56] Andrew: Isn't funny until they die.

[33:58] Bree: Then it's funny.

[34:00] Jess: OK, OJ Simpson.

[34:03] Andrew: Well, nothing was ever proven.

[34:08] Bree: He he he lost the civil court case.

[34:11] Andrew: So, yeah, something was proven.

[34:13] Bree: He is the reason.

[34:14] Andrew: Remember when he wrote that book and it was just titled I did it and then there was like if but it was like tiny.

[34:19] Bree: That was a request by the Goldman family because he was really just going to title it if I did it.

[34:24] Andrew: And then the Goldman family is like, no, you're going to make the if really small and then just put I did it on the cover.

[34:32] Bree: Because it's great because they run the entire Simpson estate.

[34:36] Andrew: And yeah, good for them.

[34:38] Bree: I guess we got to talk about the iconic ones now.

[34:41] Jess: Consider yourself.

[34:42] Bree: Consider yourself at home.

[34:49] Andrew: Consider yourself one of the family I've taken to you.

[34:55] Jess: So strong.

[34:56] Bree: It's clear we are going to get along.

[35:01] Andrew: Consider yourself.

[35:02] Bree: Consider yourself part of the furniture.

[35:08] Andrew: There isn't a lot to spare.

[35:12] Bree: Who cares what ever we got?

[35:16] Jess: We share if it's a chance to be.

[35:19] Andrew: Yeah, this is where he first meets the Dodger.

[35:22] Bree: Yes.

[35:23] Andrew: Full Dodger.

[35:24] Bree: The artful Dodger.

[35:25] Andrew: And this song goes on for what it has to go on for 15 minutes, right?

[35:29] Bree: It doesn't end.

[35:30] Andrew: They get the whole town involved and like everyone starts singing it.

[35:34] Bree: And I'm just like, what is fucking happening right now?

[35:37] Jess: You're being entertained, Andrew.

[35:39] Andrew: Don't you love theater?

[35:40] Jess: You're being entertained.

[35:42] Bree: It's good.

[35:43] Jess: It's the escapism you thought you wanted when we started this show, Andrew.

[35:47] Andrew: I think now I kind of feel like what you're saying when you don't like that.

[35:51] Bree: They start dancing for no fucking reason.

[35:54] Andrew: Because like this, they're just dancing for no fucking reason.

[35:59] Jess: And I don't mean to be negative about this show.

[36:02] Andrew: I get it.

[36:03] Jess: It's iconic and likely will last much longer than all three of us combined.

[36:07] Andrew: Like life importance.

[36:09] Jess: Like it will last beyond all of us.

[36:11] Bree: And we're just snarky Internet idiots.

[36:13] Andrew: But you know what? It's fun to be snarky about shit that is fucking dated as fuck, though.

[36:17] Jess: I mean, come on.

[36:18] Andrew: It is.

[36:19] Bree: I think the song's catchy, like legitimately catchy.

[36:23] Andrew: Yeah, it's a fun song.

[36:25] Bree: I don't quite understand what it's about.

[36:28] Andrew: It's just kind of a feel good song, I guess.

[36:31] Jess: Well, we got like three feel good songs right in a row.

[36:34] Andrew: Yeah.

[36:35] Bree: Because I think you've got to pick a pocket or two does everything that this song does.

[36:39] Andrew: But like again.

[36:41] Jess: Well, no, you got to introduce the Dodger.

[36:43] Andrew: He gets his own song and then Fagin gets his own song.

[36:46] Bree: And then the Nancy in the group gets his own song.

[36:48] Andrew: And then Nancy in the group and Oliver gets his own song.

[36:53] Bree: Yeah.

[36:54] Andrew: And it's just like, why?

[36:56] Bree: Why is this happening?

[37:01] Jess: Let's just mash together.

[37:05] Andrew: It's a fine life and I do anything because we because consider yourself and you've got to pick a pocket or two are basically a continuation of each other.

[37:09] Bree: Got to pick a pocket or two.

[37:11] Andrew: Boys, you've got to pick a pocket or two.

[37:17] Bree: Why should we all break our backs?

[37:20] Andrew: Better pick a pocket or two.

[37:22] Bree: Says crime doesn't pay.

[37:27] Andrew: Robin Hood, what a crook.

[37:30] Bree: Gave away what he took.

[37:33] Andrew: Charity's fine.

[37:34] Bree: Subscribe to mine.

[37:36] Andrew: Get out and pick a pocket or two.

[37:38] Bree: You've got to pick a pocket or two.

[37:42] Andrew: Boys, missed.

[37:46] Bree: You've got to pick a pocket or two.

[37:50] Andrew: Robin Hood was far too good.

[37:53] Bree: He has to pick a pocket or two.

[37:56] Andrew: My merry men.

[38:01] Bree: Take a tip from Bill Sikes.

[38:04] Andrew: You've got to pick a pocket or two.

[38:05] Bree: I actually like a bit better just because I think Fagin has a bit more fun with the song and it doesn't have as much over the top whole town dancing for no reason.

[38:10] Andrew: And you also hate kids in general when they sing.

[38:17] Bree: I mean, it's not like I hate that, but yeah, I don't know.

[38:21] Andrew: Just kids don't have a developed voice, you know?

[38:24] Bree: And I also feel a little awkward.

[38:26] Andrew: It's like, how late at night are these kids up on stage?

[38:28] Bree: You know, like, what's going on here?

[38:30] Andrew: Child labor for the arts is still child labor.

[38:33] Bree: You know, make a point, Andrew.

[38:36] Andrew: I feel like you should start picketing the shows of Annie and Oliver and if I could just get Annie to stop playing forever,

[38:42] Bree: it would be my life dream come true.

[38:49] Andrew: No, Andrew, what they're going to do is they're still going to play Annie.

[38:51] Bree: It's just they'll have full grown ass adults in life.

[38:54] Andrew: That would be funny as shit, though.

[38:56] Bree: I'll watch that.

[38:58] Andrew: Oh, Danny Warbucks.

[39:00] Bree: And they're like fucking 18.

[39:03] Andrew: I'm so glad I'm a it's going to be like Chris O'Donnell in the Batman movies.

[39:09] Bree: Thanks for adopting me.

[39:11] Andrew: Thanks for adopting me, my dude.

[39:13] Bree: I gotta go to the bathroom and shave.

[39:18] Andrew: What do you think of I do anything?

[39:22] Bree: I'd do anything for you, dear.

[39:26] Andrew: Anything for you.

[39:28] Bree: Mean everything to me.

[39:32] Andrew: I know that I'd go anywhere for your small.

[39:37] Bree: Anywhere for your small.

[39:40] Andrew: Everywhere I see.

[39:43] Bree: It is the iconic one, is it?

[39:46] Andrew: I've never read it before.

[39:47] Bree: I don't think I only heard about it because Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[39:51] Jess: Oh, I wonder if I've ever told you about this.

[39:53] Bree: Oh, God.

[39:54] Jess: Fucking wonderful thing.

[39:56] Bree: Andrew Lloyd Webber did in the UK for many years.

[39:58] Jess: Anytime he was doing a big revival or bringing back a show like Superstar, he would basically have a mini American Idol session of who is going to play the big leading role in this.

[40:10] Bree: Oh, my new production.

[40:12] Jess: He did one for Jesus Christ Superstar.

[40:14] Bree: And he had like all these Jesus is from around the world come audition.

[40:17] Jess: And they all had to compete against each other.

[40:20] Bree: And for when he revived the Wizard of Oz, who's going to be Dorothy?

[40:23] Jess: Place your votes at home.

[40:25] Bree: And for this, it was who's going to be Nancy in the revival of Oliver.

[40:30] Jess: And it was the show is titled I do anything.

[40:34] Bree: Bro, that's pretty cringe.

[40:35] Jess: It was pretty cringe.

[40:37] Bree: That's where a lot of like British famous people came from, like Samantha Barks, who would go on to play Eponine in the Les Mis movie.

[40:44] Jess: That's where she's got her start.

[40:46] Bree: Oh, well, you know, that's Britain for you.

[40:49] Jess: Can't stop him, can you?

[40:51] Bree: No, I find this song cringe in a weird way of like it's like when your mom's friend is like, oh, you're alive with me to like the five year old.

[41:00] Andrew: Yeah.

[41:01] Bree: Why is why does I'm just looking at why does Bill Sykes not have a song here?

[41:06] Andrew: I don't know, dude.

[41:08] Bree: We have like five songs introducing Fagan's gang and Bill Sykes doesn't have anything.

[41:14] Andrew: He doesn't even I think it's like the mindset of once your villain starts singing, they stop being scary, which eventually we've grown out of in like modern days.

[41:23] Bree: But I can see the argument for that.

[41:26] Andrew: But the villain song is always the best song.

[41:29] Bree: Well, they didn't really have villain songs yet.

[41:31] Andrew: Like you think about it like this.

[41:33] Bree: At this point, the only villain song really on Broadway was Lonely Room from fucking Oklahoma, which is a great villain song and one of my favorites.

[41:41] Andrew: But that was the only one.

[41:43] Bree: Fair, fair.

[41:45] Andrew: Looking at the list of songs, Bill Sykes has fucking one song and Nancy has like twenty five.

[41:50] Bree: Yeah.

[41:51] Andrew: And they don't have any songs together, even though they're supposed to be a couple.

[41:54] Bree: I mean, they're not a good couple.

[41:57] Andrew: Well, no, but even bad couples usually get songs together.

[42:00] Bree: Alright. I know you want to talk about Be Back Soon because it's your favorite song in the entire show.

[42:05] Andrew: I just for some reason remember this song.

[42:07] Bree: Be back soon.

[42:09] Andrew: I don't I don't know why I remember this song.

[42:13] Bree: You can go, but be back soon.

[42:15] Andrew: You can go, but while you're working this place, I'm pacing round until you're home.

[42:20] Bree: Satan sound fairly well, but be back soon.

[42:24] Andrew: You can tell where danger's lurking.

[42:26] Bree: Do not forget this tune.

[42:28] Andrew: Be back soon.

[42:30] Bree: I could be.

[42:32] Andrew: I could be.

[42:34] Bree: We love him, so we'll come back.

[42:37] Andrew: He's in the place.

[42:40] Bree: It's just a.

[42:42] Andrew: I will be back soon.

[42:47] Bree: You can go, but it's also this is the fucking act one closer.

[42:54] Andrew: The robbery is.

[42:55] Bree: But yeah, this is it's dumb.

[42:57] Andrew: This is the last song that's like song.

[42:59] Bree: Yeah, just like what?

[43:03] Andrew: It's so pointless to aren't there.

[43:05] Bree: They're literally just singing about how they're going to come back soon.

[43:07] Andrew: Well, then it's immediately juxtaposed because Oliver doesn't come back.

[43:10] Bree: I get it.

[43:11] Andrew: They're trying to cram.

[43:12] Bree: Yeah, they're going to be back, aren't they?

[43:14] Andrew: They promised.

[43:15] Bree: Yeah, it's it's it's like when they when fucking Black Widow was like, I'll be back in a minute.

[43:21] Andrew: Ha ha.

[43:22] Bree: And then she was.

[43:23] Andrew: Yeah, we know she wasn't because the movie never came out and will never come out.

[43:28] Bree: Oops.

[43:31] Andrew: I don't really want to linger on this song too much, but I do want to talk about the structural change of it in the movie compared to the musical.

[43:39] Bree: Sure.

[43:55] Jess: Is there a cause for why she's singing it? Like, really? I think she's just kind of like, let's hang out and be fun.

[44:23] Andrew: Yeah, honestly, I don't fucking remember at all. And honestly, the only part of that has impact that had any impact on me during act two at the opening here is when Mrs. Bedwin starts singing "Where Is Love?" Because it's like, oh, that's a song that I remember. OK, oh, we're back in the story. OK.

[44:48] Jess: Yeah. But in the movie, they move "Oompah-pah" to like close to the end, basically as a distraction song so she can sneak Oliver away from Bill. So she gets this bar all up and dancing and singing so she can sneak Oliver away. So they moved it from the pointless start of act two, which technically is where it should be in a stage musical, to an actual plot relevant piece. And basically the last time you see Nancy alive.

[45:13] Andrew: Yeah, I think that as the last song she sings, it's not very good. I mean, it's kind of like look at her ingenuity and smarts as opposed to her just singing as long as he needs me.

[45:29] Jess: Yeah. Let's talk about that shit now.

[45:59] ♪ Musical number: "As Long As He Needs Me" — performed by Nancy ♪

[46:39] Andrew: That song is kind of depressing.

[46:41] Jess: That song is horrific. And people have sung it on their albums. Barbra Streisand sings it. People perform it live. And it's about a girl justifying why she's with her abusive boyfriend.

[46:50] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I can understand a song like that existing as long as it's framed properly. I don't know if I can say that this is framed properly.

[47:03] Jess: It is not. Because I've heard the song independently of this musical for years. And I was like, oh, it's just about a girl. It's like dedicated to her boyfriend. Then I watch it in context and I'm like, what the fuck? Oh, it's about a girl that's dedicated to her abusive boyfriend that then kills her.

[47:15] Andrew: Yeah. Right before he kills her. She's singing like as long as he like. And I've never done nothing wrong. I never betrayed you. And then he just beats her. He's dead. In the apparently in the book, there is a scene because everyone likes Bill Sykes' dog. There's a part where Bill Sykes kills his dog or attempts to as well. So, you know, I'm glad the movie and the musical didn't do that because that would be one step too far. You can abuse women, but as soon as you get into animal abuse, the man, that character is unredeemable.

[47:45] Jess: I mean, Bill Sykes is pretty unredeemable, but yes, he is.

[47:50] Andrew: That was irony, Jess.

[47:50] Jess: Yeah. Although I guarantee people actually would have responded more, more heinously to a dog being killed than a woman being killed. But, you know, that just says something about our society.

[48:01] Andrew: Yeah. There's only one more song to talk about, literally just one.

[48:12] Jess: Actually, it's a lie. I got one other one.

[48:17] Andrew: Are we going to talk about reviewing the situation or.

[48:22] Jess: Yes, but I want to talk about one before that. I lied.

[48:28] Andrew: OK, what do you want to talk about?

[48:28] Jess: The secretly best song in this show that literally has no point to be in it is pointless, but I love it anyways, and is the only one I like re-listened to and re-watched.

[48:32] Andrew: OK.

[48:32] Jess: "Who Will Buy?"

[48:38] ♪ Musical number: "Who Will Buy?" ♪

[49:56] Andrew: I don't remember this song.

[49:59] Jess: It's no plot relevance. It just falls over you. But like in the moment while it's happening, I'm like, this is like the most gorgeous song. It is secretly the best sounding, prettiest, like a number in the entire show. And it's just like this big number like who will buy these red flowers? And it like it starts with just Oliver and then the rest. It's like consider yourself, but a lot more melancholy and pointless.

[50:27] Andrew: OK, let's talk about this, though. Why is this completely pointless, irrelevant plot song this late into the fucking show?

[50:34] Jess: Yes, that was what I was going to bring up in the movie. They put it right after the intermission because the movie has an intermission. And I think it works so much better there.

[50:46] Andrew: OK, yeah, that makes sense.

[50:46] Jess: And it stands out better there. And it's just prettier there, too. I think the real reason it's here, though, is because Oliver doesn't have a song in act two. If this is in here.

[50:57] Andrew: Yes.

[50:57] Jess: Which I mean, there goes him being the main character, right? All right. All right. Revealing the situation.

[51:03] ♪ Musical number: "Reviewing the Situation" — performed by Fagin ♪

[51:41] Andrew: I don't really like this song, actually.

[51:43] Jess: Explain. I'm curious.

[51:56] Andrew: It doesn't really have much purpose. And literally the entire song is just he's like, oh, am I going to change my ways? And then the end of the song is just, oh, I'm not going to change my ways. And that was it.

[52:08] Jess: I think this I'm going to agree with you that I agree that content wise, I don't love it lyrically. This is possibly the one song where the lyrics really stand out.

[52:18] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, they play around with it a lot. It's not like bad, but I don't know.

[52:23] Jess: And I appreciate that because I'm like, wow, those rhymes are like actually really good.

[52:27] Andrew: The song kind of feels like the entire show, though, where it's just like nothing happens.

[52:32] Jess: I mean, stuff happens. It's just, you know, it's like dive into the head of Fagin and like we know what this guy's about for the moment he came on screen. Not going to lie.

[52:42] Andrew: Yeah. And that's really the last song of note in the show because everything else is a reprise. Mr. Bumble comes back for a reprise because, you know, everyone wanted to see him. Nancy gets fucking killed after reprising her song. Fagin does the same song again. Then the show's over. Food, glorious food.

[53:06] Jess: Yeah. They do have the big set piece with Bill Sykes hanging from a rope. You know, that's cool.

[53:10] Andrew: Wow. Call Cameron Mackintosh. Yeah. Fuck the chandelier crashing. Fuck that barricade. Like we got a man dangling from a rope.

[53:22] Jess: Yeah. I mean, back when this came out, that probably was like a big deal. It was like, wow, what are you talking about? You can go into the city square and see that any day you want.

[53:29] Andrew: Well, that's I mean, that's real, though. This is this is like fake stuff.

[53:34] Jess: All right, Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on Oliver and your cheese rating?

[53:40] Andrew: Oh, my goodness. Oh, boy. Oliver is bland and I didn't feel very much going in or coming out of it. I can't say it's like bad because it's like the music is is fine and there's some songs that are pretty good. I don't know if I would call this like a classic, though, like this is this is like an old show. That's like it feels like a proto musical, like they haven't quite figured out how to actually tell a story yet. I don't know. There's too many fucking characters. If they cut out like half of the characters and then told a tighter story that I think I could get behind it. But as it is right now, it's it's a slog to get through. And I don't think I recommend it as far as the cheese goes here.

Go cheese.com, right? That's the good one. Yeah, that's that's the king of all the cheeses that is king of cheese. You got to give it some bland cheese, though. I mean, British British cheese, I'm sure is bland as fuck. I guess I'm going to give it aged British cheddar because that sounds pretty fucking bland. And this this show has not aged well. So that's fair.

[54:49] Bree: How would you rate our discussion?

[54:55] Jess: I'm going to give you a stinking Bishop because while the show itself was not great or smelly, like the stinking Bishop cheese, you guys take first place and reviewing it.

[55:05] Bree: Wow.

[55:05] Jess: Like it took first place in the smell festival in Britain or something along those lines.

[55:14] Bree: I was totally lost. But yeah, I'm done good with it.

[55:19] Jess: Well, just just what do you think of the show?

[55:26] Jess: I think the show is not age great. I can imagine it being very groundbreaking. I can see that it is really an actual labor of love from Lionel Bart, and he deserved a lot more attention and praise for the work that he did while he was alive. And I'm glad that his work lives on. But as a show itself, it's a bit of a slog to watch. Not going to lie.

[55:43] Jess: Cheese. There's only one cheese I can rate it. And I am going to send you all the link in the Zoom chat.

[55:49] Bree: Oh, boy.

[55:49] Jess: And Bree is going to use that clip and play it right now.

[55:56] ♪ Musical number: "Cheese, Glorious Cheese" ♪

[56:47] Andrew: Wow. Great job, Jesse. You really dug up the gems on this one.

[56:55] Jess: I like how even when I win, you won't let me win. You will never give me a sincere reaction on this show ever. You know, that's fine.

[57:03] Bree: Well, well, that's fine.

[57:03] Jess: Our patrons.

[57:08] Bree: Yes, our wonderful patrons. Thank you, guys, for listening. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. Our Twitter is Cheesy Musicals with an extra E. Patreon is Musicals with Cheese. We got a lot of shit. Listen to the mid show. We talked about that a bunch. Our Instagram is Musicals with Cheese. Our YouTube page is Musicals with Cheese. We have a patron only podcast currently about Fosse Verdon. We got some cool shit. And Andrew and I might be doing a commentary on Oliver and Company to coincide with this.

[57:26] Andrew: Oh, it's going to happen. It's coming. It's probably going to come out right on the same day. I'm hoping for that. I hope the schedule will work out.

[57:34] Bree: Our email is MusicalTheatreLives at Gmail.com if you hated what we had to say about Oliver because it was your favorite thing and you sang "As Long As He Needs Me" at your spring summer concert and you're really butthurt about us insulting it so much. Shoot us an angry email. Our title card is created by the absolutely incredible Jolene Casco. Follow her on Instagram at Jolene Casco. This show is produced by the absolutely wonderful, the incredible, the wonderful Brianna Jones. So if there's anything that you like editing wise about this, maybe maybe you should send her a tweet about how great she is.

[58:14] Jess: All right. Thank you guys for listening. Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this up, you guys?

[58:17] Andrew: Food, glorious food. Tastes mighty inviting.

[58:26] Jess: All right. And we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.