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[0:05] Jesse McEnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McEnally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:09] Jesse McEnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[0:13] Jesse McEnally: How are you doing today, Andrew?

[0:15] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I am doing just absolutely excellently.

[0:19] Jesse McEnally: Well, that's good.

[0:20] Jesse McEnally: That's good. I have a question for you, actually.

[0:23] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, really?

[0:24] Jesse McEnally: How do you take a speck of sawdust out of your brother's eyes when you've got this giant plank swinging out of your own?

[0:31] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I'd probably like reach in and try to pluck it out and see which eye it's in with my feet.

[0:37] Jesse McEnally: You hypocrite! First, you have to remove the speck of sawdust from your own eye so you can look properly to remove the shit from your brother's.

[0:48] Andrew DeWolf: Is that what hypocrite means?

[0:51] Jesse McEnally: I guess so. This week we are talking about Godspell.

[0:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:00] Andrew DeWolf: Day by day.

[1:04] Jesse McEnally: Day by day.

[1:07] Andrew DeWolf: Oh dear.

[1:10] Andrew DeWolf: Three things I pray.

[1:14] Andrew DeWolf: To see thee more clearly.

[1:18] Andrew DeWolf: Have the more dearly.

[1:22] Andrew DeWolf: Follow thee more dearly.

[1:26] Andrew DeWolf: Day by day. Godspell is a musical with music and lyrics, mostly by Steven Schwartz, and a book by John Michael Tebelek.

[1:36] Jesse McEnally: Uh, the musical is structured as a series of parables, primarily based on the Gospel of Matthew.

[1:42] Jesse McEnally: The parables are interspersed with music set primarily to lyrics from traditional hymns, with the Passion of Christ briefly appearing at the end of the show.

[1:51] Jesse McEnally: It premiered as a musical at the Cherry Lane Theater on May 17th, 1971.

[1:55] Jesse McEnally: It transferred to the Promenade Theater three months later and closed on June 13, 1976 after 2,124 performances at the Promenade.

[2:06] Jesse McEnally: So that is a fuckload of performances before even hitting Broadway.

[2:10] Jesse McEnally: Um, after the film was released in 1973, there's a Broadway run on June 22nd, 1976 at the Broadhurst Theater that didn't do quite as well.

[2:19] Jesse McEnally: Um, and that closed on September 4th, 1977, after five previews and 527 performances.

[2:26] Andrew DeWolf: So much less.

[2:26] Jesse McEnally: It was nominated for the 1977 Tony Award for best original score, which it did not win.

[2:31] Jesse McEnally: And the plot of which is the gospel according to St. Matthew is presented in a series of skits and songs with Jesus and his disciples presented as loving clowns for some reason.

[2:40] Jesse McEnally: In this musical featuring songs by Steven Schwartz, conceived and originally directed by John Michael Tebelek.

[2:46] Jesse McEnally: Andrew.

[2:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[2:47] Jesse McEnally: What do you think of Godspell? This is your first time like experiencing this, and for clarity's sake, Andrew watched the film and listened to the 2011 revival.

[2:58] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, yeah, I've actually uh I've had a bit of time between when I've watched it and when we're recording this.

[3:06] Andrew DeWolf: So I have actually listened to more than just the 2011 revival.

[3:09] Jesse McEnally: Okay, what's your favorite version?

[3:13] Andrew DeWolf: I I I'm sorry to throw this at you so early, but they're all so different. Honestly, uh for the songs that I like, I think the movie version's the best one.

[3:21] Jesse McEnally: Really?

[3:22] Andrew DeWolf: I mean at least the original, the original Broadway run.

[3:26] Jesse McEnally: I disagree. I think the Broadway and the off-Broadway are not particularly good.

[3:30] Jesse McEnally: I think the movie soundtrack is mixed the best, but leaves out a lot of the songs that I like.

[3:36] Andrew DeWolf: I guess I I I just like like three of the songs because they're just the most fun.

[3:41] Jesse McEnally: And that's understandably.

[3:43] Andrew DeWolf: So I take it you're mostly leaning negative on this one.

[3:46] Jesse McEnally: Um, I don't think I'm negative on it.

[3:50] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[3:51] Jesse McEnally: It's very cheesy in good ways. Like it it is actively trying to entertain you.

[3:58] Jesse McEnally: Um, my actual issue with it in some ways is that it feels like it's trying to entertain you because it wants to get a message across.

[3:58] Jesse McEnally: It feels like it's trying to entertain you, but it's in a certain way where it's like Sunday school is trying to entertain you.

[4:14] Jesse McEnally: It's like, yeah, look at these clowns dance around, but also Jesus is pretty cool, huh?

[4:20] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew, you weren't religious growing up, I'm willing to bet.

[4:23] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, not at all.

[4:24] Jesse McEnally: Okay. So you weren't forced to go to like these Christian camps over your summers where they just play you like acoustic guitars renditions of Jesus stories.

[4:33] Andrew DeWolf: No, and I never had to perform Godspell at my church either, so yeah.

[4:38] Jesse McEnally: Um, this is what it feels like. It feels like you're at church camp, and then they're like, We've got a surprise for you.

[4:44] Jesse McEnally: A bunch of clowns are gonna come, and then they they like are like, alright, clowns, and then they're teaching you fucking Jesus stories.

[4:50] Andrew DeWolf: God damn it. It reminds me of uh Everything Is Terrible, where they have like, you know, they have like Colby the computer, and he comes out and he's like, Let's read the book of Proverbs.

[5:01] Jesse McEnally: It's like Veggie Tales. It's trying to trick you into listening to Jesus.

[5:06] Andrew DeWolf: Oh man, I have discussions with my friends about Veggie Tales where I'm like, you know, it's really not that good, and they're like, What are you talking about? It's amazing.

[5:12] Andrew DeWolf: And it's like, I mean, I guess if you watched it when you were five years old at church because you were so bored anything would be better, but I mean, I think the fact that it didn't quite lean into the Jesus stuff as much as you'd expect, so people can fuse that for being quality.

[5:30] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, I suppose. I suppose that is one thing with Veggie Tales. I don't know if you can give that to Godspell though.

[5:37] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no, no.

[5:39] Jesse McEnally: Um, it's actually quite interesting. Um, so this is one of three times in the entire history of Musicals with Cheese that we're re-recording an episode, like a second time.

[5:49] Jesse McEnally: Um, first one was Hello Again because I was just too drunk. Second one was Into the Woods because we wanted that one to be really good.

[5:57] Andrew DeWolf: And it just wasn't amazing.

[5:58] Jesse McEnally: If we just do it again, we'll do it better.

[6:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[6:01] Jesse McEnally: And this time it was just because you and I gotten into a fairly heated debate about the content of this.

[6:07] Jesse McEnally: And then I think wrong.

[6:09] Andrew DeWolf: That and Jess's mic got cut out for like half the episode as well.

[6:12] Jesse McEnally: Yes, that was really just a lot of issues caused us to do this one again.

[6:16] Jesse McEnally: So this is us doing this again. And I don't want to reenact things, but I also kind of want to relent to something.

[6:24] Jesse McEnally: I rewatched the movie today, earlier today. Um, and I tried to watch it with the mindset of this is propaganda.

[6:33] Jesse McEnally: I had never watched Godspell thinking like I am going to watch propaganda.

[6:37] Andrew DeWolf: And that opening scene is pr is it it rubbed me the wrong way.

[6:42] Jesse McEnally: It's explicit, isn't it? Like it's very explicit.

[6:45] Andrew DeWolf: You did a poll on Twitter.

[6:47] Jesse McEnally: We're gonna talk about that later.

[6:49] Andrew DeWolf: We have to talk about that.

[6:50] Jesse McEnally: Okay. Uh, um, but I do want to bring up like they cut out the Tower of Babel, which I know you've got a ton of issues with um as a I think the Tower of Babel opening makes it even more explicit, but I I could be wrong on that if you have different a different story about it, but I just don't like the message that the movie's sending, which on the surface is like, oh, just forget your rose and go be happy.

[7:12] Jesse McEnally: But in it, it's like, no, give up your passion and your dreams to go get baptized is like what it is.

[7:19] Andrew DeWolf: Throw away your purse, throw away your connections, throw away everything. Go into a fountain and get baptized by some cult leader.

[7:26] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. And I mean, I think the movie does a great job of portraying the Jesus crew as like a weird hippie cult.

[7:34] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it does ring true of Drew Jim Jones and all that.

[7:38] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, I mean, it's obviously not like not the negative aspects of that, but like if you look at it, you're like, are these guys following Charlie Manson or something? Like, you know.

[7:46] Andrew DeWolf: But the movie does a trick on you where they kind of make you think that the guy that's Judas is actually Jesus, because he is dressed a bit more like Jesus.

[7:56] Jesse McEnally: He's got the beard, the long hair, and all that. And he's and they the initial scene is him walking into the city with the uh with the cart, and you're like, oh, well, that's Jesus coming into town, and everyone's gonna be able to do it.

[8:08] Andrew DeWolf: And he's like teleporting everywhere and like dancing with people, like intervening in their life and dragging them to be baptized.

[8:15] Jesse McEnally: And to be fair, that's not that's not Judas at that time. That's John the Baptist.

[8:19] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, it that is like an amalgam of John the Baptist and Judas squeezed together into this new version of the character.

[8:29] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, which I don't really know John the Baptist that well, so I'm not sure if that makes any sense at all.

[8:35] Andrew DeWolf: He gets beheaded. That's that's what you need to know.

[8:40] Jesse McEnally: Fair enough. He he does baptisms, Jesus goes into the fucking desert for 40 days, he comes back.

[8:46] Jesse McEnally: Where's John?

[8:51] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, oh man. You missed so much shit, dude.

[8:59] Jesse McEnally: I was fighting Satan out in the desert.

[9:02] Andrew DeWolf: Like, literally.

[9:04] Jesse McEnally: Oh, what kind of what bad things could have happened while I was gone?

[9:08] Jesse McEnally: Um, I'm contemplating with this, because for so long, I've never really seen this as a religious piece.

[9:14] Jesse McEnally: And you and I got into pretty heated debate where I'm like, it can be secular.

[9:18] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and you're like, no, the text itself makes it so it can't be secular.

[9:23] Jesse McEnally: Am I right?

[9:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's what I'm saying. I still stand by that.

[9:26] Jesse McEnally: I I don't know if you've changed your mind at all, but I stand 100% by that this cannot be performed in a secular manner.

[9:32] Andrew DeWolf: It is strictly religious.

[9:34] Jesse McEnally: I think framing could be it, but that no in the way that I'm imagining it, no one would ever put it on this way.

[9:39] Andrew DeWolf: So I I'm relenting and starting to agree with you that it is so ingrained in the actual biblical text in a way that something like Jesus Christ Superstar and even Children of Eden is not that you can't remove it, because this is literally teaching you a lesson as an audience guy.

[9:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think the difference is, and I wouldn't argue that Jesus Christ Superstar or Children of Eden, uh children, even maybe more so, but even that one, I wouldn't argue that those are strictly religious pieces.

[10:04] Jesse McEnally: Those are just telling a mythologized story.

[10:08] Andrew DeWolf: Whereas this is explicitly going through teachings for the vast majority of the show.

[10:13] Andrew DeWolf: So I feel like you can't say that oh, it's just telling the story of Jesus, because it's really not.

[10:20] Jesse McEnally: It's telling the teachings of Jesus, which makes it more explicitly religious.

[10:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, but also I feel like this specific way of doing it, where they in theory you could frame it where these people are literal insane folk.

[10:37] Andrew DeWolf: Like literally without changing anything in the content in just the way that you frame it, you can make it seem like this is not the way to go about it.

[10:45] Jesse McEnally: That is the only way I can see you removing the innate religiousness.

[10:50] Andrew DeWolf: Then you're almost making it a explicitly anti-religious piece though, so it's almost like...

[10:59] Jesse McEnally: But the thing is I I really like the show, and I'm not one that is a very religious man.

[11:04] Jesse McEnally: In fact I would even say I am not a religious man. I'm not saying I don't enjoy the show, because there are actually songs that I've been revisiting 'cause I just think they're really fun.

[11:13] Jesse McEnally: But like I on some level it's more difficult for me to enjoy the show because I'm not a Christian and I don't appreciate being propagandized to.

[11:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so it's more difficult for me to be like, yeah, let's watch that again, you know? But I kind of am wondering if I wish this were kind of um sh something about something else with this kind of m song stuff.

[11:37] Jesse McEnally: I think specifically because they are like if you it's an adaptation of a book at and along in front of it and in all honesty if you view it as like a very accurate adaptation of a book, it's like, oh yeah, that's fine.

[11:50] Jesse McEnally: This book um has an intense shit has been done because of this specific book.

[11:56] Andrew DeWolf: And if you adapt it directly, there's a lot of political context to go along with that.

[12:00] Jesse McEnally: Yeah.

[12:01] Andrew DeWolf: Positive and negative, but I mean it's you know, it it isn't it's it isn't like they're making a story about Roman gods or something where it's like this is irrelevant.

[12:12] Jesse McEnally: Like nobody believes in this anymore really.

[12:15] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, this is the m one of the major religions in the world still. I mean, let's imagine that this was about Scientology.

[12:23] Jesse McEnally: Like literally, they just adapted like books by L. Ron Hubbard and the writing of L. Ron Hubbard directly to stage and added music to it.

[12:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, so like Book of Mormon, but like really not a parody.

[12:35] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, not a like a sincere, like, let's do this, and then you could either accept it and just go on your life.

[12:42] Jesse McEnally: Or, you know, just I don't know. There's that side of it where I'm like, I'm trying to disconnect it from the religious nature of its innate religious nature. And it's not like we haven't covered musicals that are religious. Like literally last week we did Prince of Egypt, um, the third and final of Stephen Schwartz's Bible trilogy, which is Godspell, Children of Eden, and Prince of Egypt. Like we've done all three now. With Prince of Egypt, though, and the reason why I don't if I'm remembering correctly, we didn't have a big religious discussion during Prince of Egypt.

[13:14] Andrew DeWolf: No, we had a content discussion there mostly.

[13:16] Jesse McEnally: Well, yeah, but I think the reason why you don't need to have one of those with Prince of Egypt is because it's not teaching uh morals about like what we should and how we should and should not act in our real life. Prince of Egypt is just a story. It's the story of Moses, which is a religious story, but so is the story of like Achilles or something like that. Like those are technically religious stories, but you can tell them in a way that isn't like, you know, oh you should believe this.

[13:48] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, okay, I get what the f the reason why then. The fact is this isn't a story, and they just throw a crucifixion at the end. This is just a bunch of statements and lessons that happens to have a crucifixion at the end.

[13:59] Jesse McEnally: Well, yeah, that like in Jesus Christ Superstar, they don't really go through Jesus' morals, like his lessons that much. At least I don't remember them really doing any sort of focus on that. It's more just like this is Jesus' life, this is what happened. You know? And that's what makes it a story rather than, you know, a sermon.

[14:22] Andrew DeWolf: But then it has elements that are counteracting the sermonizing that the text is doing, especially in the movie. Like there's a scene where Judas is prompted to slap a girl's ass while baptizing her, and then he does it. Like shit like that kind of f*cks with my brain a bit with this, where I'm like, but I mean Veggie Tales is about talking vegetables. I mean, you know, sometimes you add that in to keep the audience awake.

[14:50] Jesse McEnally: I think the exact words of keeping the audience awake is an interesting one. But then again, a lot of the time it counteracts with the music. Like, let's say a song like Turn Back Old Man, which is a very sexy sounding song if you're not listening to the lyrics where it's literally just like a Bible passage.

[15:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[15:08] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, I mean, and I'm not saying there's nothing to enjoy about that in and whatever. I just we had that discussion, and then are we gonna go over the Twitter poll?

[15:17] Andrew DeWolf: I want to go over the Twitter poll.

[15:18] Jesse McEnally: Let's talk about the Twitter poll right now. So I put a Twitter poll out there. Because I wanted to know what the rest of the world thought, because Andrew raised some really good opinions, and the Patreon's probably gonna get that old recording just for them to look at and be like, oh so that's the difference between them. Yeah, so join the Patreon if you want to hear that debate. Um and I asked, is Godspell inherently religious? Is it secular? Does it depend on the production? Overwhelmingly, people said it depends on the production. Like that was the number one. Number two was it's too religious. And they got some really good responses there. I thought it was some very interesting responses.

[15:52] Andrew DeWolf: I'm very curious as to how you could say it depends on the production, because unless they're changing the text of the show, I just can't see it.

[16:02] Jesse McEnally: I mean the text is changed in every version, no matter what, um, but they don't change the meat and bones that bothers you, which is the sermons.

[16:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, which part of me thinks that some people are maybe like Christianity is very, very ingrained in our culture. Right. And I'm imagining a version of this show where it's Muhammad and he's doing all of his teachings from the Quran. It'd probably be more interesting.

[16:31] Jesse McEnally: Well, well, it's just it would be more interesting to you because you're it's not ingrained in your culture. It's not it's something new to you. Like, how many times have you heard the teachings of Jesus? I mean, my god. Um I'm wondering if it's something where like no one would ever say that it uh something that just goes through and does the teachings of the Quran is well, it depends on the production. Sometimes they have more goofs and gaffes, and it's like, okay, but it's still like it's Muhammad teaching his teachings to the audience. Like it's a sermon, you know, and I feel like it has something to do with the fact that people are just so used to and so blind to the teachings of Jesus, it's just like common sense to them that they can't see like through it. They can't see like this is this is directly them teaching the Bible to me, because it's just well, I mean, it's just common sense. I mean, that Jesus' teachings. I mean, that's not religious.

[17:26] Andrew DeWolf: An argument is made in our responses that it while it is an inherently religious musical, that does not mean it is an evangelical musical. Um, you don't you can do this production without feeling like you have to give money in the tin for your tithes.

[17:41] Jesse McEnally: I do agree with that. Um, and there's different forms of Christianity. I mean I think that this does its best to fit with all of them. Um so I don't think it's like explicit propaganda for a specific church. Like this isn't a Catholic show or an evangelical show or it's a Presbyterian show. Let me let me be clear there. It is that the writer, maybe, yes, but I don't think he really puts it in there as much. I think the style of music and the choice of the presentation is episcopalian, to be honest.

[18:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I think any churchgoer could enjoy this and not have any issues with it.

[18:22] Jesse McEnally: I think Catholics would have a lot of issues with it, to be honest. My girlfriend is a Catholic and they performed it at their church.

[18:28] Andrew DeWolf: That's crazy to me.

[18:29] Jesse McEnally: See that that is wild to me. So I don't think I don't think it's specific enough. Uh but I think it's so transformative in its nature. Like, I can't imagine taking a five-year-old to see Godspell and them connecting with, oh, is that Jesus? Is this about Jesus? Because it's just the aesthetic choices that we have so conflated with Bible and biblical stories, is just not present here.

[18:54] Andrew DeWolf: Well, yeah, but I think this was a time when they were doing a lot of that. Like Jesus Christ Superstar has him as like a rock star, you know?

[19:02] Jesse McEnally: Like, yeah, they were playing with the idea of what Jesus was a little bit. But this show is sprung out of this show would not exist without the show that came before it, which was Hair, which is a decidedly ultra-liberal show, uh where they start the show by burning their draft cards and then they get naked and all that stuff. It's a tribe musical about community, and this is another tribe musical about community, um, with a lot of the same tropes and a lot of the same aesthetic choices there used, um, just with Jesus. It's the choice.

[19:02] Andrew DeWolf: A little bit.

[19:38] Jesse McEnally: It kind of does feel that way. It's uh we'll do Hair one day. I just want to make sure we have a lot of fun. It's like uh it's like Christian rock.

[19:46] Andrew DeWolf: No, because Christian rock feels like evangelical.

[19:49] Jesse McEnally: It also feels evangelical to me in a way.

[19:52] Andrew DeWolf: Uh this doesn't.

[19:53] Jesse McEnally: And that's the thing. But I get why you and other people, like guests of the show, Angelina Mean, um, said it's always come off as incredibly religious to her, which is why she has issues with it. And I can see that too. Um I I d it's such an interesting show, and it's not and uh it there's nothing I can compare it to that we've done in our catalog either. It is kind of on its own island here. So I'm yeah, think that's why I'm having so much difficulty with it.

[20:21] Andrew DeWolf: But now, what I think is really cool about this show uh is that it seems like we just wasted a huge portion of this episode talking about whether or not it's religious that we would have been talking about the plot. But that is a plot. There's no plot.

[20:34] Jesse McEnally: So we don't have to worry about that. The plot is uh John the Baptist shows up and baptizes a bunch of people and then baptizes Jesus, and then Jesus teaches with a cast of unnamed characters except for Judas. Um he does all his teachings and then they perform a very short version of the Passion. Uh, and then it ends. Uh that's the first one. But there's so much the fact that it is so nondescript, so generic, so like non-plot-based, means you can do interesting stuff with it. Like, if I was directing Godspell, I'd do some crazy balls to the wall stuff if I was given the choice. Um, I heard of one production where they don't know who Judas is until the final number the final Last Supper scene, and whoever gets the bread first ends up being Judas. Like, that's such a fun idea where it's a different thing every night. Um, but I can see atheists putting their own touches on this and making it atheistic.

[21:34] Andrew DeWolf: Well, my issue with that is not that you couldn't do it, it's that you're kind of boxing in philosophy in a way. Uh, you know, the show itself isn't necessarily not atheistic. Cause you could just you could just say, oh, well, Jesus isn't actually God at the end, uh, and you know, I mean, they never show the resurrection.

[22:01] Jesse McEnally: That is another thing that that a lot of religious groups had tr problems with with this show.

[22:05] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly.

[22:06] Jesse McEnally: And that's great, but that doesn't make it not religious, because it's the teachings that make it religious, not the fact that Jesus is God that makes it religious.

[22:17] Andrew DeWolf: Are there any problematic teachings that you've experienced with this show?

[22:21] Jesse McEnally: Uh yes, I actually do have issues with.

[22:21] Andrew DeWolf: Let's talk.

[22:24] Jesse McEnally: Let's talk about that. With the New Testament teachings. I mean, the one specifically shown in the show.

[22:29] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[22:30] Jesse McEnally: Well, why don't you go through and we'll see which ones I had an issue with? I I have one in mind for s for sure, but why don't we just run through it?

[22:38] Andrew DeWolf: How about we actually save that?

[22:40] Jesse McEnally: Actually, we're at the 22-minute mark. We can make this a bottom heavy heavy episode. Why don't we go into a mid-show and then we'll go through each song and talk about like what it's trying to do, how effective it is.

[22:51] Andrew DeWolf: Sure.

[22:51] Jesse McEnally: Do we want to do uh reviews?

[22:53] Andrew DeWolf: Oh shit, you're right.

[22:54] Jesse McEnally: You're right. I forgot all about that. Um, so Brie isn't here again for like timing issues. So I'm doing the brief again.

[23:01] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for Bree.

[23:08] Jesse McEnally: It's time for previews.

[23:11] Andrew DeWolf: Wow, that's a great, great song.

[23:14] Jesse McEnally: Clive Barnes of the New York Times said of the original 1971 off Broadway production. Although I would not for a moment presume to doubt either its integrity or sincerity. I found its whole concept of whimsy and of Jesus as being a regular fellow too coy and knowing. It is never irreverent, merely naive and platitudinous in its mixture of Jesus Christ Superstar, Lovable Circus Clowns, and Billy Graham. Personally, I thought the whole premise with Razer was rather nauseating. But I very freely admit I have an unnaturally weak stomach in this respect. I mean, let me profess this with saying critics did not love this show and really haven't connected with the show over the years. Um there's one exception that will is kind of hilarious to me that we're talking about next, but I can see why this is off putting and why audiences gravitate to this more than critics.

[24:11] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it's very cheesy and there's no plot. So I can definitely see critics being like, ah, this is not for me at all.

[24:21] Jesse McEnally: Um, but one critic who thought that the movie version was really for them. Um so this is a couple years after that original 1971 off Broadway production, and this is from Mr. Roger Ebert himself. Um he's got some weird reviews sometimes.

[24:30] Andrew DeWolf: He he Yeah.

[24:37] Jesse McEnally: Didn't he's Phantom Menace like four stars out of four.

[24:40] Andrew DeWolf: No, he gave it three stars. He gave uh Revenge of the Sith four out of four stars.

[24:44] Jesse McEnally: Okay, yeah, yeah. Which maybe is more justifiable. I don't know. But Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times said of the film The thing about Godspell that caught my heart was its simplicity. Its refusal to pretend to be anything more than what it is. It's not a message for our times or a movie to cash in on the Jesus movement. Or quite even quite a youth movie. It's a series of stories and songs like the Bible is, and it's told with the directness that simple stories need, with no tricks, no intellectual gadgets, and a lot of openness.

[25:19] Andrew DeWolf: It occurred to me about an hour into the film that maybe young people will pick up on this. Tattoos were big in the 70s, little butterflies and stars. Why not face paint zigzags and pinwheels and flowers? Anything to brighten up this miserable world, which is what Godspell is saying anyway. I think he was just really in the mood to enjoy something that day, to be honest.

[25:42] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, it's a bit weird. I will say the movie has some cool stuff going on, though. I like some of the dance scenes that they put out, and you know, I don't know. The worst part of the movie is the theatrical stuff. As soon as they're like doing like the gospel talk and they're like putting on their little skits, it like drops. But any song number works really well.

[26:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I especially like um what is it called? Uh all for the best, I think has a really good a really good dance associated with it.

[26:10] Jesse McEnally: Oh, did I have I ever told you how I first saw All For the Best the song number?

[26:15] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[26:15] Jesse McEnally: It was in the very early days of YouTube. And I think you should probably know where this is going if you're a horrible person.

[26:21] Andrew DeWolf: Oh god, is this like a joke we're gonna have to cut from the episode?

[26:24] Jesse McEnally: No, keep this in, but it's not my joke. It was just something that existed on the internet. And I always thought this is just how All For the Best ended, because I was very young at the time. Um it was just all for the best normally, and then at the end they're on the like construction of the two towers, then they just cut in 9-11 footage at the end.

[26:41] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I I remember those days. People really thought that was funny. Like cutting in 9-11 footage was the funniest thing in the world.

[26:51] Jesse McEnally: Ever. And now looking back, it's like, oh man. Yikes. God, gross some taste. Jesus Christ. What the hell is wrong with you people?

[27:01] Andrew DeWolf: But first I didn't make the connection, so I'm like, wow, that that Jesus movie. Yeah, that really is. Godspell's really uh really went off the rails there. How did they get that footage?

[27:13] Jesse McEnally: Alright. How about you read Bruce Weber's review of the 2000 production?

[27:19] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Bruce Weber of the New York Times said of the 2000 revival, absent the crucifixion, which closes the show on a discomforting downbeat. It always has, of course. Godspell with his energy and jokey exhortations for people to behave well in the world, uh ends up creating an atmosphere that recalls nothing so much as the Muppet Show.

[27:42] Jesse McEnally: We will not accept Muppet Hate on this show like that.

[27:45] Andrew DeWolf: Is that Muppet Hate, though, or is that up at praise?

[27:49] Jesse McEnally: No, I think it's like this is just as good as the Muppet Show, and that's not a that's not a compliment.

[27:55] Andrew DeWolf: You see, I don't know if you can say that anything comparing something else to the Muppet Show is calling it bad. Because the Muppet Show is like universal. It's it's amazing. Everyone considers it the greatest piece of art ever made, so.

[28:09] Jesse McEnally: I agree. Um, how about I talk about Charles Isherwood's review of the 2011 revival?

[28:13] Andrew DeWolf: I'd absolutely love to hear what Charles Isherwood has to say. I I very very much respect their opinion.

[28:24] Jesse McEnally: Sure. Um Charles Isherwood said of the 2011 revival, and while Godspell is earnest in when it comes to the tough stuff, um, like that crucifixion, the juvenile spirit of the show never.

[28:36] Andrew DeWolf: He literally says, like um the crucifixion.

[28:40] Jesse McEnally: That's what's actually written. The juvenile spirit of the show tends to infantilize its moral and spiritual subject matter, turning the story of Jesus' life and his followers' education and the rewards of faith into a series of schoolyard games. Remember Pictionaries?

[28:58] Andrew DeWolf: This guy. Even if much of its language is adapted straight from the modern versions of the Bible, some of the lyrics are based on hymns. Godspell brings to mind a somewhat less venerable but also popular dispenser of moral lessons to its happy flock of followers.

[29:16] Jesse McEnally: Sesame Street!

[29:17] Andrew DeWolf: Double Muppet! They're just they're dunking on Jim Henson.

[29:21] Jesse McEnally: Um They don't like the Henson on Broadway.

[29:25] Andrew DeWolf: So basically, this person is upset that they're being too fun when talking about Jesus.

[29:34] Jesse McEnally: How dare you have a fun musical on Broadway?

[29:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Especially about Jesus. It should be dark and sad, like the Passion of the Christ movie with Mel Gibson.

[29:48] Jesse McEnally: We've Yeah, I I agree. People can't have fun. It's not like Jesus was a miserable guy through most of his life.

[29:55] Andrew DeWolf: He wasn't a brooding fellow. He wasn't Zack Snyder.

[29:58] Jesse McEnally: I mean, uh I'm now I'm imagining Zack Snyder's Passion of the Christ, which would just be the same movie that they made already.

[30:05] Andrew DeWolf: It would just be Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ. It's just the same thing. What is there's a ton of slow-mo in Mel Gibson's movie too.

[30:12] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, I yeah.

[30:14] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[30:14] Jesse McEnally: Oh, we gotta we gotta brand.

[30:20] Andrew DeWolf: Brent Brandley.

[30:21] Jesse McEnally: Oh, yeah, I remember this one. This he's this is just bizarre. New York Times theater critic Ben Brantley said of a 2020 uh Pittsfield, Massachusetts production. Note that time, 2020, last year. But historical and social context counts for a lot in how a work of art is perceived. If you've been stranded in a desert island with nothing to drink, a communion chalice of grape soda might taste like the finest champagne.

[30:44] Andrew DeWolf: Having experienced theater only via computer screens for some 150 days, I was thirsty for any kind of in-person encounter with flesh and blood practitioners.

[30:52] Jesse McEnally: In reimagining a string of biblical life lessons and folkified hymns and gospel songs for the age of coronavirus, Mr. Filderman and company are speaking to the contemporary fears bred by isolation and inaction.

[31:04] Andrew DeWolf: As a metaphor for how so many of us have been living since March, this form of theatrical communication feels both heartbreaking and valiant.

[31:12] Jesse McEnally: We adapt, we make do, even as we long to return to the age of the handshake and the hug.

[31:18] Andrew DeWolf: That's not a review.

[31:19] Jesse McEnally: It's not a review.

[31:21] Andrew DeWolf: I'm a I'm Ben Bradley!

[31:24] Jesse McEnally: So uh Ben Bradley, what'd you think of Godspell?

[31:27] Andrew DeWolf: I wanna go outside!

[31:32] Jesse McEnally: That is basically a good summation of how New York Times review. You ask them what do you think of the show? They come up with some unrelated statement, and you're supposed to make the connection.

[31:42] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, Ben, what did you think of uh what'd you think of the show?

[31:44] Jesse McEnally: Oh, I had a terrible morning. My breakfast was overcooked.

[31:52] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no.

[31:54] Jesse McEnally: It's that's too much of a connection to be on it.

[31:56] Andrew DeWolf: Too much of a connection.

[31:59] Jesse McEnally: Have you ever noticed that the sky is orange sometimes?

[32:05] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no.

[32:08] Jesse McEnally: No, it's like, here is Ben Bradley. What'd you think of God's spell?

[32:11] Andrew DeWolf: I stare into lights and then I see the little blotches all over the place.

[32:17] Jesse McEnally: Can find your own connection there, but it's there.

[32:22] Andrew DeWolf: Do we agree with those reviews, Andrew?

[32:24] Jesse McEnally: Ben Brantley's review, I absolutely agree with. I want to go outside.

[32:29] Andrew DeWolf: I want handshakes and hugs, and yeah, God's like this is the summation of his review.

[32:34] Jesse McEnally: Godspell ain't great, but I want theater, and you know what? Trash tastes like treasure when you're eating it.

[32:40] Andrew DeWolf: Really cool. When it's the first time you've eaten in a year.

[32:43] Jesse McEnally: Well, um, I think the one I agree with the most is the one that says it's kind of like the Muppet Show because I can see it.

[32:53] Andrew DeWolf: It's like the Muppet Show, but like for Jesus?

[32:57] Jesse McEnally: Muppets for Jesus.

[32:59] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, how would you do the Passion of the Christ with Jesus or with Muppets?

[33:04] Jesse McEnally: Oh. Can we just not do the Passion of the Christ? Like the whole origin of that and like what it represents is just bad.

[33:12] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, they've already done it, uh, Jesus Muppet Christ Superstar.

[33:15] Jesse McEnally: It's a thing that exists.

[33:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh god.

[33:17] Jesse McEnally: Okay. Well, it doesn't have to. We can we can only want to say.

[33:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, my.

[33:23] Jesse McEnally: Alright, we're gonna do a mid-show.

[33:25] Andrew DeWolf: On that note, let's go on to a mid-show.

[33:34] Jesse McEnally: Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors at Patreon.

[33:39] Andrew DeWolf: Patreon's where you can go if you'd like to donate to us and get some extra perks.

[33:44] Jesse McEnally: We have commentaries, we have the Patreon with cheese podcast, where we're covering uh Galavant right now, but in the past we have covered Fosse Verdon and Glee.

[33:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um and yeah, we do we just do a lot of stuff. We did a uh Wizard of Oz with Tom and Jerry commentary recently. That was that was something.

[34:03] Jesse McEnally: Um, alright, our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Terry Needleman, John Donna, Max Lunig, Lighton Accles, Danielle Rennox, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Task Gear, Fire of September, Monica Thoreau, Amina Maniri, Brent Black, Haley Murray, B Way Flicks, Lithanial Stacey Coomb, Joseph Evans Green, Carrie Ahern, Christine Malmadell, Cole Birchfield, Mary Lou Choquette, uh John Vanels, Heck UI Go by Elijah now, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Andrew Van Barrison, Tablam, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Christina Francis, Scoot and the Technicolor Green Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, Corey Wilmarth, Alison Staller, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, John Vanels, Thesbian, Ren Cullen, Wait in the Wings, Lady Malvolia, Spectacle Machine, Jacob Stroop, Robert Benjamin, Rochelle T, Jessica T, Genevieve Hartnett, Cass, Michelle Young uh Pardon me, I keep doing that one wrong.

[35:00] Andrew DeWolf: Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Hayden Wilder, uh, Katie McDonough, Genki Geist, Staccus, Timothy Keyes, uh, Jeffrey Machado, um, Jacqueline Spring, uh, Jacqueline Spring, uh Ton Van Essen, and Jesse Taylor.

[35:19] Jesse McEnally: They give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here, musicals of cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, page only commentaries or episodes today early. Video episodes, you can see our faces right now, and try to figure out why I wasn't there for most of this.

[35:33] Andrew DeWolf: Um, um come join us over there at Patreon. Andrew, is there anything else you want to say?

[35:38] Jesse McEnally: Oh, yeah, we got merch buyer merch on our merch store.

[35:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's actually pretty nice merch, too.

[35:44] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, we've had nothing but nice comments about it.

[35:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um we have the new shirt, the wiz uh, the stinkeroo boss.

[35:51] Jesse McEnally: Where do we find these reviews? Like, where do you find is there like a like terrible reviews.com or something for everything like yeah, it's called the New York Times.com.

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: Fair fair.

[36:06] Jesse McEnally: All right, let's get back to the show.

[36:16] Andrew DeWolf: So I love the tower of Babylon, Babble, Babble, Babble, Babble, Babble, Babble, Rabble, high above the rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, babble, rabble, babble, babble, rabble, babble, greatest mind of history.

[36:40] Jesse McEnally: So they life, sweet mystery.

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: So listen to me.

[36:44] Jesse McEnally: So listen to me.

[36:48] Andrew DeWolf: Know how life should be.

[36:49] Jesse McEnally: Oh, what does it matter if they don't agree?

[36:58] Andrew DeWolf: So the musical starts um with a prologue um called The Tower of Babel. Um it's just that this all these philosophers come together with their own point of view, like the fighting about dogma and all that crap that conflicts with the other the others.

[37:14] Jesse McEnally: I think like um who's in it? You've got L. Ron Hubbard, you've got a bunch of others.

[37:20] Andrew DeWolf: Um Isaac Newton, isn't he one of them?

[37:22] Jesse McEnally: No.

[37:23] Andrew DeWolf: Uh oh my goodness.

[37:26] Jesse McEnally: I I remembered, and now I've forgotten already.

[37:30] Andrew DeWolf: Um my goodness.

[37:32] Jesse McEnally: But they are all fighting with one another, and at the height of their violence and despair, the point was that the arrival of a new philosopher was heralded, which was Jesus.

[37:40] Andrew DeWolf: It's coming down here to prepare you.

[37:42] Jesse McEnally: So, in order of appearance, Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, Galileo, uh Hegel, uh Gibbon, and Elron Hubbard, uh Sarder, Marianne Williamson, and that's all.

[37:56] Jesse McEnally: Those are all of them. And when Stephen Schwartz came onto the show, which was he can't join the production after it had already existed at Carnegie Mellon, and he was asked to write a bunch of new songs for it. And originally it was just a monologue set by all those philosophers, and he's like, "Alright, I'm gonna turn that into a song somehow." And his intention was not to make fun of them, but to show their philosophies in a fun way. Never deriding them, but also showing Jesus as the one we're focusing on today. Which was an interesting way to do it, but I also feel like a lot of, uh, I should probably cite my sources. A lot of my references here are gonna come from these fan letter responses that Stephen Schwartz has posted on his website where they had questions and concerns about specifically Godspell, and he wrote back to them.

And I will say a lot of this comes up with him making stuff up just to appease this one individual person. But this one I can see, like specifically. I know you have a big issue with this song, and I'd love to hear you explain that.

[39:02] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so my big issue with the song is it as a framing device, not necessarily just as a song itself, but as the way it is used. So what I don't think it's that good of a song, to be honest. It's not like catchy or anything. So whatever. It's not even a movie. Not that that means nothing for one. You could say that, but they felt like they didn't have to put it in there, so I think it's a fun pun with the Tower of Babel, Tower of Babel, all that. I think that's a good idea where you've got like all these different ideas, and then Jesus coming in to kind of like it. Well, it's also related to the Tower of Babel story where like communication is lost because of the Tower of Babel and the creation of multiple languages.

You know, it's a metaphor as well. I think it's a funny song. I think it's a really clever song. I agree with you, it's not like literally it's probably the worst song in the show, if you ask me. But I don't hate it, and I'm glad it's here, and I think it works as a funny idea for an opening prologue. I have the issue with it where, um, and it's really the issue with the whole show, but I think that this is like the strongest piece of evidence that this is not a secular show. This is basically all these philosophers, they fight and they fight, and then basically it ends with a mockery of them, and then Jesus appears. And it's like, okay, so all these philosophers are wrong, you shouldn't listen to them, you should just listen to Jesus. Because he's the one that's—

[40:39] Jesse McEnally: But let's not pretend they don't make they don't show Jesus' philosophies in a fun way or a goofy way.

[40:47] Andrew DeWolf: They don't make fun of them, though.

[40:52] Jesse McEnally: They don't make fun of them here either.

[40:54] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. One, they make fun of them by having them go like babble babble babble, rabble, rabble, rabble, which is like it's just like, oh, all they're saying is garbage, it's just blah blah blah blah blah.

[41:06] Jesse McEnally: No, it's more that they're fighting with each other.

[41:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I guess. But it's really up to interpretation, I suppose. But it's also kind of this populist message where at the end they all say, so high in my lovely ivory tower of babel, high above the rabble. So the rabble being everyone else, and they're up in the ivory tower. Tell me you haven't heard people say this politically on like Fox News or something like that.

[41:31] Jesse McEnally: Of course I have.

[41:32] Andrew DeWolf: And then, you know, they say, "We're the greatest minds in history, solving life's mysteries, listen to me. I know how life should be. What does it matter if we don't agree?" So basically the whole thing is framing like philosophers are wrong, they think they're better than you, listen to Jesus. And that's my issue with the song.

[41:52] Jesse McEnally: That's fair. I just don't think it's a bad song.

[41:55] Andrew DeWolf: I do not like the message, and I do not like that that's the opening framing device of the show.

[42:01] Jesse McEnally: Would you be able to accept the message if it was a catchier tune for you?

[42:04] Andrew DeWolf: I wouldn't be able to accept the message, but I would enjoy the song more.

[42:09] Jesse McEnally: That's fair. Speaking of songs that you enjoy and you prefer the framing device to, let's talk about "Prepare Ye."

[42:45] Andrew DeWolf: This song's just a bop. I really like it. I won't say anything about the message because I don't think there is that much of a message. It's just, you know, it's John the Bible.

[42:59] Jesse McEnally: It's one sentence.

[43:00] Andrew DeWolf: I know, it's John the Baptist going to baptize people. So there's no message here. And this is the song on the Matthew 3:3 and Isaiah 40:3. I wanted to point that out.

[43:10] Jesse McEnally: That's fine.

[43:10] Andrew DeWolf: And I mean, I don't have an issue with it being from religion.

[43:14] Jesse McEnally: No, I just wanted to frame it.

[43:16] Andrew DeWolf: It's a great song. It's very catchy, and they should open the show with this and cut Tower Babel and never speak of it again.

[43:24] Jesse McEnally: Tower of Babel is important. Let's be clear.

[43:27] Andrew DeWolf: Sure. But it's not important enough for the movie, and that's all I give a shit about. Because that's the one I watched. So whatever. We've got to talk about "Save the People" briefly.

[43:37] ♪ Musical number: "Save the People" ♪

[44:19] Jesse McEnally: "Save the People" is just kind of right from the text, and it's not right from the biblical text, it's straight from Episcopal Hymnal 1940, number 496. So it's specifically an Episcopalian hymnal, as opposed to other forms of religion. So other people have trouble with that.

[44:37] Andrew DeWolf: Did they change the music? Or is it like literally just it's just a hymn taken and put in directly into the show?

[44:44] Jesse McEnally: They changed the music. They just left the words from the hymn.

[44:48] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[44:49] Jesse McEnally: Which is interesting because it isn't in the Bible specifically, it's a specific episcopal yeah, hymn.

[44:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, I don't have much memory of this song. Like, I don't think it was bad. I just I remember where it was. It's like John the Baptist talks to him and then baptizes him, and then they sing this. But yeah, it's like and it's also the gathering of the people after the baptism, kind of like, um, but then we literally have to talk about "Day by Day," which is a super important song. It is from another Episcopalian hymnal, number 429, from Richard of Chichester.

[45:30] ♪ Musical number: "Day by Day" ♪

[45:57] Jesse McEnally: It is the last musical theater song to really hit the charts. As performed by the original cast. It was the off-Broadway cast that hit the big Billboard charts. There have been show tunes since that have charted, but they were covers of by other artists, such as "Somewhere" from West Side Story by Barbra Streisand. Never the original cast. This is the last original cast to be on the Billboard chart.

[46:21] Andrew DeWolf: Oh come on, Chess. I mean, Greatest Showman, like the whole album's on there.

[46:25] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, not Hugh Jackman. That's the thing. It's not the original cast. And I think we're talking stage.

[46:30] Andrew DeWolf: I know. I was picking a joke.

[46:32] Jesse McEnally: Uh, you're being an asshole.

[46:34] Andrew DeWolf: True. Yeah, "Day by Day." It's fine. It's like a ballad number, which makes it nothing.

[46:44] Jesse McEnally: It's a ballad that becomes a group number.

[46:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I mean, I think the more fun songs in this are more upbeat, but this one's fine, and I can see why it got popular when it did.

[46:57] Jesse McEnally: It feels like right out of the musical Hair. Once again, Hair was also a very popular album. Like the songs from that hit the Billboard charts and are still played. Like if you listen to Oldies, like "Age of Aquarius," all that shit is still playing on the radio today. This feels right alongside all that. So it makes complete sense.

[47:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Of course, of course, the best song in the show, "All for the Best." It was one of the few original lyrics by Stephen Schwartz written especially for this, and you can kind of feel it. It feels the most theatery of the songs in here.

[47:16] ♪ Musical number: "All for the Best" ♪

[48:13] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I like this one a lot because I think this is the most neutral song in the show. Because it's the closest one to giving an opposing viewpoint.

[48:24] Jesse McEnally: Yes.

[48:24] Andrew DeWolf: And I think that the show is portraying it not well, not in a vacuum. The show portrays it as Judas is wrong and Jesus has the correct opinion. But if you listen to this song in a vacuum, it's like I just feel like Judas just makes more sense. It's just like, yeah, like this other guy's just telling us that like everything's gonna be great when we're dead. It's like, well, how do we know that?

[48:52] Jesse McEnally: Cause I told you so. It's my friend.

[48:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. So Judas just has a better—

[48:56] Jesse McEnally: He's my dad.

[48:59] Andrew DeWolf: Judas just has a better point, and this song is a frickin' slammer when performed well.

[49:07] Jesse McEnally: Yes. I do not like the version of the very sort of thing. I do not like it when they take it down tempo. I think it does hurt the song a lot. I think you lose a lot of the patteriness and the kind of like vaudeville style of it as soon as you like slow it down. There's the version from the new one where they like changed out the ukulele like fast strumming for like the slow guitar like strums, and it's like bump bump bump, but that's kind of how it's like why did you do that? I disagree. Don't do that. But yeah, the one from the movie slaps. And the visuals, like them on the World Trade Center at the end, it looks incredible. I love the screen behind them that's showing their silhouettes when they're dancing. That's like a really good visual. Also like him on the roof in a pool when he's singing when Judas is singing his verse is like pretty striking and memorable as imagery as well.

[50:28] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, this song is the high point of the show, in my opinion.

[50:50] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. The intense zooms, the actual zooming, like where you've got one guy probably ten miles away on another thing, and they've got this ultra zoom just finding Jesus and Judas, like, or zooming out of them and seeing how small they are in the world. Very, very striking imagery too.

[50:34] Andrew DeWolf: Um, very good. And I like it in a vacuum, and I like it in the show, so it's just good.

[50:46] Jesse McEnally: I want to talk very, very briefly about "Turnback Oh Man," cause that is from another Episcopal Paleon Hymnal. Um, which is this song, I don't even know quite what it's about, but it does feel the lyrics do kind of jive incorrectly with the actual music, if that makes sense. The message does not fit the music. Turn back, oh man. Forswear thy foolish way. Old now is earth and none may count her day. Still will not keep me. Well, good evening, sir. How's your seat? Turn back, oh man. This is my good side. Turn back, oh man. Forswear thy foolish way. See ya later. I'm going to the front of the theaters.

[52:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I feel like they just wanted to make the song more fun, though. Um, they have a lot of songs in this that are kind of just like hymns that they do relatively straight, and this one is the one that they kind of changed to be more sexy. Um, so. Yeah, and that's weird for a Jesus story for one. And a lot of people have confused that to be like, oh, is that Mary Magdalene? Cause prostitute, and he's like, no, no, no, no, no, it's true, but it's not, no. Mary Magdalene is in this story, but not as her.

[52:40] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. So. And Jesus' one little verse there, like, it just it's this song is a mess, but I love it. Like, I do actively love this song. I just don't like the message mixed with the music. I just like it feels like it should be like a burlesque number, and it isn't.

[52:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. But that's the thing with like so many of these songs not having much of a story purpose. It's like you never really get songs that like do something. Um, let's talk quickly about "Beautiful City," which I find interesting, and I don't quite know when to bring up in this show, but it is one of the better songs in the show. It's an original lyric by Stephen Schwartz. We don't be able to faster. We need to be wrong. We've got our special bastard. In each other's eye, can be a beautiful city. Yes, we can. Yes, we can build a beautiful city.

[54:07] Jesse McEnally: It has been adapted a thousand times. It was written especially for the movie because they cut, um, I believe they cut "We Beseech Thee" because they thought it was too theatrical, and if that movie, if they're cutting something out because it's too theatrical, it must be really theatrical. Um, and he wrote it just as this like, yeah, life is great, but we love singing and we're so happy, it's a great world. And he, Stephen Schwartz, actively hated the lyrics he wrote, he actively hated how like kind of unrepentantly upbeat it was, like it felt real cheesy for him. Um, but after the Rodney King riots, he did a revision of it, um, which is in the more recent productions, um, used very, very well in the 2011 production, where it's like much more dour song about like I hope one day we can be better.

Um, and maybe not, but I'd like it one day. Um, and so far it's an interesting song because you can put it anywhere in the show. Um, Stephen Schwartz is giving carte blanche for you to put it anywhere, wherever you want. You want it at the beginning, put it at the beginning, throw it at the end as like a thing. And I don't, and anywhere I can imagine it working pretty well. It could work as an "I Want" song, it could work as an 11 o'clock number. It's not a song. Well, one part of me thinks that you can do that with a lot of these songs, like you could just kind of mix the order. Um, but this song, especially, isn't even a teaching or anything. It's just it is just like, yeah, we can be great one day. Like, and that's that's like it. And it's like that's the only message it has, like, you could just yeah, you can just put that anywhere.

[55:43] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it's also about like, wow, the world is a mess right now, but you know it comes out of the ruins and rubble, something great.

[55:49] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting. I think it's cool that it's a song that was written for the movie that they added into the stage show afterwards, which is interesting. Yeah. As well. That never happens.

[56:01] Andrew DeWolf: Uh yeah, at least very rarely. I think "You Must Love Me" from "Evita" is the only real big one. You don't see suddenly on "Les Mis" on Broadway anymore. Like, because that's a bad song, not to be fair. I think the song has to be better than the than the movie in a way.

[56:18] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about "By My Side."

[56:23] Andrew DeWolf: Where are you going? Where are you going? Can you take me with you from my hand is cold and need. Where are you going?

[56:49] Jesse McEnally: It is the only song that neither Stephen Schwartz wrote that did not write the lyrics and music to. It was written by Jay Hamburger. Um, and it is from the character of Mary Magdalene. So when he was brought in to write the songs, he came across this one, which was already written for the production. Um, he felt that he could try to write another song for the moment, but he thought that one was just so beautiful and already existed. Why not keep it? Um, and it's still there. And this is the only song where it's specifically Mary Magdalene singing. This is meant to be Mary Magdalene.

[57:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Which it's interesting because there's another song that makes you think that it's her, but it isn't.

[57:32] Jesse McEnally: Yes. And then there is this song that is her. So, you know. It's also interesting just the process of writing the songs for this, because it's just it seems like such a mishmash of nonsense. I mean, and that's part of the reason why I really wanted to re-record it. I wanted to get it right when we talked about it today. Because I got a lot of this wrong last time.

[57:58] Andrew DeWolf: I think you were just kind of randomly crediting different people last time we talked about it.

[58:02] Jesse McEnally: I was. I was like so exhausted. That was a very long record session, dare I remind you. Because the "Prince of Egypt" episode is like an hour and twenty.

[58:10] Andrew DeWolf: Now it was an hour and fifty when we recorded it.

[58:13] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, I don't even know how that ended up being so long. Well, yeah, I'm not sure. Do you have any other songs you want to mention?

[58:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I got a couple. Um, um, really only one more, and that is specifically "By My Side" is one of the few plot centric songs, and having it be Mary Magdalene is actually slightly important to the storytelling because in the middle of it, we have Judas coming out and saying, I'm gonna go kill Jesus now.

[58:37] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. And it's triggered by him watching Mary Magdalene and Jesus connect, where he fundamentally disagrees with that. Um, he doesn't say that aloud, but that is what we're meant to interpret, and the reason why that is Mary Magdalene.

[58:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. What do you think of that?

[58:52] Jesse McEnally: I think they could have been more explicit with it, and I think it's odd that they didn't give Judas a number explaining it. They just have him like say one line, but whatever. I went to the Pharisees and asked, What would you give me to turn them in? Um, Judas when he comes back singing the uh entry of the gladiators.

[59:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that that is specifically a movie thing.

[59:21] Jesse McEnally: Which was so weird, and I mean, I get it that in the movie they're like clowns and it has this weird clown thing. And I wanted to talk about that briefly. You have do you have any insight on the clown thing? You did all this research. Why are they clowns?

[59:38] Andrew DeWolf: I think clowns are just more accepted and a part of hippie culture in a way, which is kind of what they were aiming for. I mean you laugh, but it kind of was a big part of hippie culture, especially in their designs and their flower child styles. It does kind of look clown-like, and I think that was a connection that um Teblack made, and he's like, well, why don't we just do embrace the clownery a bit more and kind of turn it up to a 50 and make it a little bit more like let us entertain you. Um and I think just showing it as a bit of a circus, like in the movie you have him as a literal ringmaster at certain points. So I think that's just an interesting framing device.

[1:00:18] Jesse McEnally: Yeah. Um I don't think there's a specific reason or a metaphor that they're trying to make aside from let's try to entertain people, but also Jesus. The entry of the gladiators thing just kind of threw me a little bit, and it's like, why?

[1:00:33] Andrew DeWolf: Cause evil.

[1:00:44] Jesse McEnally: Afro circus, Afro Circus, Afro, broken up, poka, poka not afro.

[1:00:48] Andrew DeWolf: That's uh uh Madagascar three or two.

[1:00:51] Jesse McEnally: Yes. That's three.

[1:00:52] Andrew DeWolf: Madagascar three, as written by the director of marriage stories.

[1:00:57] Jesse McEnally: Alright. And um, one last song before we wrap this all. "On the Willows."

[1:01:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[1:01:07] Jesse McEnally: We are lives for our captors there.

[1:01:24] Andrew DeWolf: And our torment.

[1:01:36] Jesse McEnally: Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

[1:01:47] Andrew DeWolf: Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

[1:01:56] Jesse McEnally: Sing us one of the songs of Sion.

[1:02:06] Andrew DeWolf: But how can we What a Downer? Why did they do it? That's all I can say about it.

[1:02:12] Jesse McEnally: It's interesting. Um, because it's from the 137th Psalm. Um, and it's interesting because it is sung by the band while in every production. It is happening while everyone's saying their goodbyes, and Jesus is like, I'm gonna die, and everything last supper and all that. Oh blah blah blah. Um, and they don't feel like it's good to interrupt the action of that moment, so they have the band sing it.

[1:02:38] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm just trying to imagine like a high school putting this on and forcing the poor instrumentalist to sing "On the Willows."

[1:02:49] Jesse McEnally: I was in a um I was in a wind band uh in college, and we just randomly did a song where every uh horn player would have to stop playing and just sing a line.

[1:03:03] Andrew DeWolf: And it was the most strange thing.

[1:03:09] Jesse McEnally: Did they sound good? Is the question.

[1:03:11] Andrew DeWolf: I think it was only like two notes, so it wasn't hard to hit, so they were able to do it.

[1:03:15] Andrew DeWolf: But I remember the conductor, well the band director like yelling at them, like, if you can play it on your instrument, you could sing it. Come on! More! Put Annunciate! Come on! And it's like these are just instrumentalists, and he's just like yelling at them that they're not singing well. I learned to play the trumpet so I didn't have to learn to sing.

[1:03:40] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, that's it. That's the last song I wanted to talk about. Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on Godspell and your cheese rating?

[1:03:49] Jesse McEnally: Oh boy, howdy. Um it's good, but I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone who isn't a Christian.

[1:04:02] Andrew DeWolf: That's crazy.

[1:04:03] Jesse McEnally: I disagree.

[1:04:04] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, you're gonna you want to convert them?

[1:04:06] Jesse McEnally: Uh recommend it to all the people. I think look at the 2011 production and kind of take it with a grain of salt.

[1:04:16] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that's fine. I would say if I mean some people don't want to see Christianity. Like, I mean, I wouldn't have to do that.

[1:04:25] Jesse McEnally: I feel like Andrew, you know Christians listen to our show, right? They're out there.

[1:04:29] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, of course. I'm not saying that.

[1:04:32] Jesse McEnally: And like, I'm just saying, like, if I if I was approached by like a Hindu or something, and they were like, hey, what should I see? Uh I'm going to see a show. I I don't think I would ever say, like, oh well, Godspell's good. Like, no, I I mean, if you're a Christian or if you're okay with the Christian messages, fine. If you're not a Christian, you I don't think I could recommend this to you. I'm sorry.

[1:05:00] Andrew DeWolf: But what do you recommend as yourself?

[1:05:05] Jesse McEnally: Uh I'm just gonna listen to All for the Best, and that's it. I'm done. Uh that's the only one I'm listening to. I'm done with this show.

[1:05:10] Andrew DeWolf: Really?

[1:05:15] Jesse McEnally: My god.

[1:05:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:05:18] Jesse McEnally: I mean, how does it compare to Steven Schwartz's other musicals we've covered on here? Because this was the big one. This was like the first one, and it became a surprise hit before hitting Broadway and all that. This one we've done Wicked, we've done Children of Eden, we've got Prince of Egypt.

[1:05:31] Andrew DeWolf: This one is better than Children of Eden and not as good as Wicked or Prince of Egypt.

[1:05:36] Jesse McEnally: Okay.

[1:05:37] Andrew DeWolf: Wow, you're in the stage musical version of Prince of Egypt.

[1:05:39] Jesse McEnally: Um well, no, I'm I'm the movie.

[1:05:42] Andrew DeWolf: The stage it's not as good as I mean, no, no. The stage version of Prince of Egypt is not as good as this.

[1:05:49] Jesse McEnally: Um because I think just the high points in that are equivalent to the high points in this, and the or maybe a little bit better, but the low points are so low, like I don't even know.

[1:06:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:06:02] Jesse McEnally: I feel like the low points, and this is just a short show. Like, this doesn't feel very long too. Or that one feels like eternity fun, you know? Like, I can give it that.

[1:06:13] Andrew DeWolf: Uh as far as a cheese rating, um boy, is there a cheese associated with Jesus? Could I give it cheeses?

[1:06:22] Jesse McEnally: I I won't veto it.

[1:06:24] Andrew DeWolf: Won't veto it. Alright, I'm gonna do the dumb joke. It's gonna be cheeses. I'm giving this Jesus Christ.

[1:06:28] Jesse McEnally: Jesus Christ.

[1:06:34] Andrew DeWolf: Jesus Christ.

[1:06:36] Jesse McEnally: Um so I take it you like Superstar better than this.

[1:06:39] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, absolutely, Superstar is better.

[1:06:41] Jesse McEnally: My god, I didn't think you'd prefer an Andrew Lloyd Webber thing, to be honest.

[1:06:44] Andrew DeWolf: Dude, I mean that has King Herod's song in it.

[1:06:48] Jesse McEnally: Which is pure cheese.

[1:06:49] Andrew DeWolf: It's like the embodiment.

[1:06:51] Jesse McEnally: Who is the better religion trilogy now that I'm thinking about it? Andrew Lloyd Webber or Steven Schwartz?

[1:06:59] Andrew DeWolf: That's a tough one. So like Jesus Christ Superstar and uh Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat are both and Evita.

[1:07:08] Jesse McEnally: That's their religion theater.

[1:07:09] Andrew DeWolf: Uh trilogy.

[1:07:10] Jesse McEnally: And Evita is definitely good too.

[1:07:13] Andrew DeWolf: This one oh man, you've got to really you gotta carry the weak link here.

[1:07:18] Jesse McEnally: You know, like how do you how do you carry uh Children of Eden?

[1:07:23] Andrew DeWolf: Uh yeah.

[1:07:25] Jesse McEnally: I don't think Prince of Egypt is good enough to carry Children of Eden when you also have Evita on the other side.

[1:07:32] Andrew DeWolf: So yeah.

[1:07:34] Jesse McEnally: It's weird when Joseph, which is your favorite musical of all time, is like the weak link.

[1:07:40] Andrew DeWolf: It's just really fun.

[1:07:41] Jesse McEnally: It's not my favorite of all time, but it is a very fun show.

[1:07:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um whereas Children of Eden, if I remember right, is very boring.

[1:07:52] Jesse McEnally: Yeah.

[1:07:54] Andrew DeWolf: Need some cuts.

[1:07:55] Jesse McEnally: Um I think the songs in Children of Eden are wonderful, though. I think it's much like this one where they just got a great score.

[1:08:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I risk I remember being pretty bored by that show.

[1:08:06] Jesse McEnally: Um I don't know.

[1:08:07] Andrew DeWolf: I don't remember much of that show, to be honest. I just remember it being like a weird like mismatch of the Genesis book.

[1:08:17] Jesse McEnally: Is this a sequel to that?

[1:08:19] Andrew DeWolf: Is this technically a sequel then?

[1:08:21] Jesse McEnally: I mean, I would say that this is the most direct sequel you could make, yeah. I mean, they do Genesis and then honestly, he's done the whole, he's gone the whole Bible, basically. You know, he went he did Genesis and then he did the Moses thing, and then he he went to the New Testament. You know, like he skipped some stuff, but like he got the major stories all of 'em.

[1:08:39] Andrew DeWolf: Then he went to the newest testament, which was the Wizard of Oz.

[1:08:43] Jesse McEnally: Well, yeah, Wizard of Oz is technically the third book. The Mormons are all wrong about this.

[1:08:48] Andrew DeWolf: The third book is Wizard of Oz.

[1:08:52] Jesse McEnally: I praise you, Osman. Thank you for all your blessings.

[1:08:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:08:57] Jesse McEnally: Um my cheese rating is H. Cheddar, um, from the Willow Creek Cheesery, because on the Willows there.

[1:09:06] Andrew DeWolf: What did you think of the show though?

[1:09:08] Jesse McEnally: Um, the show, it really depends on the version. If you're watching a very good version, well, here's the issue with it. I think that no matter what, you could put on a decent version of this. You and I and Brie just pulling shit out of a box and making things up, could figure out how to do a very good version of this. Just because it is kind of that metamorphosized.

[1:09:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you could do it with dogs, you could do it with Muppets. Honestly, I think the Muppets would do a really good version of Godspell.

[1:09:36] Jesse McEnally: Okay, let me ask you this then. What'd you think of the movie? Is it a good representation of the show?

[1:09:42] Andrew DeWolf: No. The movie's fun, but I don't think it's a good movie. So if someone was like, I'd like to see Godspell, all I have access to is the movie, would you say don't bother? Or would you say the movie's worth watching still?

[1:09:53] Jesse McEnally: The movie's worth watching, but no, it's like full of seventies stuff.

[1:10:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:10:01] Jesse McEnally: In the same way that The Wiz and Jesus Christ Superstar is full of seventies stuff.

[1:10:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:10:06] Jesse McEnally: It is not the perfect representation of what that story is. Also, like all those trying to be goofy voices that the cast is doing all the time, which is just weird.

[1:10:15] Andrew DeWolf: I don't even think it's that as much.

[1:10:17] Jesse McEnally: You can make those work in a more modern production. It's the specific pop culture references where we just stop and like some, I had to Google some of them. Um, and I'm like, fuck, that has not aged well. They do a Three Stooges reference where they're like, slowly I turned, step by step, and I'm like, they spend the full like 30 seconds quoting a full Three Stooges sketch, and I'm like, you know, just pick something timeless.

[1:10:43] Andrew DeWolf: And the thing is, this show is intended to never be timeless. They wanted to update with every additional version. So I'd say if your local community theater is putting it on, yeah, check it out.

[1:10:54] Jesse McEnally: So if your church is putting it on, maybe don't check it out.

[1:10:58] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so I was over at my cousin's house once, and we were watching Nickelodeon, you know. And it was a blast, you know, and my great uncle comes over and he's like, you guys should be watching some good TV, and then he just grabs the remote and changes it to The Three Stooges.

[1:11:26] Jesse McEnally: That's my story.

[1:11:28] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[1:11:28] Jesse McEnally: Uh, what the fuck.

[1:11:35] Andrew DeWolf: What the, what is your uncle? There's so many questions. Did you turn it back or did you just keep it on The Three Stooges?

[1:11:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, it wasn't even good. It was like, oh.

[1:11:51] Jesse McEnally: The only reason why I knew that specific thing was a Three Stooges sketch from Godspell is because my girlfriend's dad always quotes it just as a joke to his family. So it's just something I know as like three separations apart. I would never get that as someone just watching it.

[1:12:09] Andrew DeWolf: And I've caught the odd Three Stooges short. Um, like I've gone to plenty of film festivals, and sometimes they're out of prints, uh, or they're out of copyright, so they'll just throw them before the films start.

[1:12:20] Jesse McEnally: And I'm like, oh, that was entertaining for what it was, and then the films will start, and that was obviously the best part of the entire evening. Film festivals for students are terrible.

[1:12:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:12:29] Jesse McEnally: Fun fact.

[1:12:30] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I could have guessed that.

[1:12:33] Jesse McEnally: I've seen your films, Jess.

[1:12:35] Andrew DeWolf: I know.

[1:12:39] Jesse McEnally: Alright, Andrew. You know who definitely hasn't seen my films?

[1:12:45] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[1:12:46] Jesse McEnally: Our wonderful patrons, thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. If you could leave us an iTunes review, that would mean a lot to me. We're on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese. We have a patron-only podcast, Patreon with Cheese.

[1:13:03] Andrew DeWolf: We just posted a full-length commentary on Back to Oz, the full like Passic and Paul's musical they did right before La La Land and The Greatest Show.

[1:13:14] Jesse McEnally: Disappointment that they did.

[1:13:17] Andrew DeWolf: It has one fucking good song though.

[1:13:19] Jesse McEnally: That like that fair song, A Fine Affair. That is actually a really good song. They should take that and put it into a show that isn't that.

[1:13:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's very, very bad.

[1:13:28] Jesse McEnally: But Jason Alexander is the Gnome King. Come on.

[1:13:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, if only it was good.

[1:13:36] Jesse McEnally: Man, that's a Ben Brantley review right there.

[1:13:39] Andrew DeWolf: So, Andrew, what'd you think of Back to Oz?

[1:13:41] Jesse McEnally: Oh man.

[1:13:42] Andrew DeWolf: What? Sometimes I stare directly at the sun, I keep my eyes open. Uh, but then when I close my eyelids, I can still see it.

[1:13:51] Jesse McEnally: Great review for The New York Times, Ben Brantley. Um, shoot us an email at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our title card is created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Go send her some love at Jolene Casco on Instagram. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. We love you, Juliet. Thank you for keeping track of that.

[1:14:08] Andrew DeWolf: This show is produced by the amazing Brianna Jones. Thank you, Brianna, for being wonderful. Sorry you're not here today, but we miss you to death. Um, thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform. We are very grateful to you for not kicking us off yet.

[1:14:21] Jesse McEnally: But it's coming.

[1:14:22] Andrew DeWolf: It's bound now. We've got something in the works that they're gonna have to kick us off for.

[1:14:26] Jesse McEnally: Yeah, just you wait.

[1:14:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um, alright, Andrew, is there anything else you want to say?

[1:14:35] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[1:14:35] Jesse McEnally: Alright then. We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:14:47] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew.

[1:14:49] Jesse McEnally: Andrew. Some men are born to live at ease, doing what they please. Richer than the bees are in honey.

[1:14:55] Andrew DeWolf: Never going old, never feeling cold, pulling pots of gold from thin air, the best in every town, best is shaking down, besides making mountains of money.

[1:15:02] Jesse McEnally: They can't take it with them, but what do they care? They get the center of the meat, cushions of the seat, houses on the street where it's sunny.

[1:15:10] Andrew DeWolf: Summers at the sea, winter's horn free, all this, and we get the rest. But who is the land for the sun and the sun for?

[1:15:17] Jesse McEnally: You guessed, it's all for the best.

[1:15:20] Andrew DeWolf: Very good.

[1:15:20] Jesse McEnally: Dadu. Very good performance.

[1:15:23] Andrew DeWolf: What, why didn't she sing along?

[1:15:25] Jesse McEnally: Because I don't know who's supposed to be.

[1:15:26] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know the other ones.

[1:15:27] Jesse McEnally: That's the only verse I know.

[1:15:29] Andrew DeWolf: Man.

[1:15:30] Jesse McEnally: I don't listen to the Jesus one.

[1:15:34] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I could do the Jesus one, you know.

[1:15:37] Jesse McEnally: Alright, maybe next time.

[1:15:39] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, guys. Next time we cover Godspell, we're doing it.

[1:15:42] Jesse McEnally: Yep.

[1:15:43] Andrew DeWolf: Did you ever, did you ever notice that Godspell, it's just gospel?

[1:15:47] Jesse McEnally: What, right? Isn't that crazy?