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[0:05] Jess McInally: Hello, I'm Jess McInally.

[0:07] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:09] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones.

[0:10] Jess McInally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, the podcast where I try to get Andrew and Brie to like musical theater. And today we have an extra special guest.

[0:16] Andrew DeWolf: Very special guest.

[0:17] Jess McInally: Yes, all the way from Canada. We don't get many Canadians on the show, sadly enough. Um today we are joined by one third of S Donna Caston, the creator, writer, editor, everything of Your Movie Sucks on YouTube. It's Adam Johnston.

[0:27] Adam Johnston: Yeah!

[0:28] Jess McInally: I made it!

[0:30] Adam Johnston: Woo!

[0:32] Adam Johnston: Canada is very far away. I have to drive like two and a half hours to get to like Seattle.

[0:37] Jess McInally: It's so far away. It's ridiculous. And we had you come all the way to New York, so I mean my god. Um so like you are the reason why we're here today. Um I suggested this musical and you agreed to do it. What is this musical that we're talking about today, Adam?

[0:54] Adam Johnston: Uh Dancer in the Dark, directed by Lars von Trier. Uh noted troll human person, uh Danish film director who's very interesting. And um yeah, it stars Bjork in like I think maybe her only acting role ever. Maybe that maybe she did like two, but uh after this one she took a hiatus, she uh she didn't like working on it very much. And uh apparently she'll be in the new uh Robert Eggers film, but oh and I'm sure we're gonna go into like the treatment on set and a ton of other things, but right now Brie cue the music.

[1:39] Brianna Jones: I'm holding my dress in wonder I wonder what to dangerous Dance to the Dark is a musical with music by Bjork and lyrics by Bjork, Lars von Trier, and Sion. Um the script was written by Lars Von Trier as well as directed. It premiered at Cannes on May 17th, 2000, with a wide release the following December. It won the Palme d'Or and Best Actress at Cannes. It was nominated for Best Original Song at the Oscars, where Bjork famously wore the swan dress and laid an egg on the red carpet. I'm sure.

[2:31] Jess McInally: So the plot of Dancer in the Dark is about Selma, a Czech immigrant on the verge of blindness, who struggles to make ends meet for herself and her son who inherited the same genetic disorder and will suffer the same fate without an inexpensive operation. When life gets too difficult, Selma learns to cope through her love of musicals, escaping life's troubles, even if just for a moment, by dreaming up little numbers to the rhythmic beats of her surroundings. And that's all I really want to say about that. If you haven't seen the movie, go see it now. I feel like all three of us are gonna recommend it to you and just be like you're you'll probably spoil it here, so yeah, and we don't want you to experience this without spoiler, so don't go further. Um all right, Adam. When did you first watch Dancer in the Dark and what drove you into it?

[3:13] Adam Johnston: Hmm. Um Wow, I guess I was probably like 15 through 17, one of those ages. Definitely, definitely in that age range. Uh I was starting to discover some more kind of like weird and out there film. This might have uh films. This might have been uh my first von Trier, I think. I think it was the first one I that I've seen. Um and yeah, it was just shown to me by a friend who uh she had uh I don't know how she had discovered it, but yeah, shown to me by a friend at the time and uh thought it was very unique and interesting, very emotionally powerful, uh very raw and brutal, which I like, so you like a good feel-bad movie most days.

[4:01] Jess McInally: Yes, yeah. All right, you and I have that in common, because I found this when I was in high school, just turned it on like a big projector screen in my backyard, sat and watched it, and I was like, oh, that was pretty good, and then I watched it like 20 more times over the next few months. It is strangely for a two and a half hour movie, it flies by like super quickly. And yeah, even if you've never seen a Lars von Trier film before, um you get the style, the dogma 95, everything shaky cam style, and the immediate like juxtaposition with the musical numbers, even without like diving into like Antichrist or uh Melancholia. You kind of get what this guy's bringing. Um Andrew just watched it yesterday for the first time for this show, and I am super curious as to his initial reaction.

[4:50] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I made probably the bad choice to watch it with my girlfriend, and she was very upset about it. It was very very uh very powerful. Uh I actually really enjoyed it though. I think it's very good, but it's like you almost get into like a state of shock after the first time you see it, I would say. Like it was a real downer. Um I guess we have to get into the plot to explain why, but basically the whole thing is like they want to gut punch you for two hours, uh, and they succeed.

[5:21] Jess McInally: So I mean, that's a fair enough review of it. Um it's fun to show theater kids this, because we usually roam in the world of like theater and like the musical theater structure, uh, where the most depressing show they've ever seen is Le Miz, and then you can just pull this one out. Hey, I've got a musical to show at this theater kid party. You guys think Le Miz is depressing, let's go. And just ruin everyone's week. All that performative energy. It kind of is an anti-musical if you really look at it.

[5:52] Adam Johnston: I mean, structurally, it's kind of sound musical-wise. Like, I know tonally it is like, yeah, the total anti-musical, but Lars Von Trier embraces the filmic techniques of like the Busby Berkeley style, and fails in a lot of ways trying to do it, but he does embrace them, and the way that he uses songs does push plot forward in a way that Busby Berkeley style musicals didn't at the time. So this has more in common with like Rogers and Hammerstein than it does with like the musicals that Selma's obsessed with, which were just like, let's stop the world for a bit.

[6:29] Jess McInally: Yeah, although I don't know, it took a long time for the first song to even appear in the film, which is pretty cool, and I enjoyed that aspect to it, you know, if you're walking into it not knowing that it's a musical takes you by surprise. And I think that's kind of somewhat the purpose of having that delayed song to open things up.

[6:48] Adam Johnston: It's even it's it's more jarring because you don't see it coming because they don't open up with it.

[6:53] Jess McInally: Yeah, the movie serves its purpose regardless of whether or not there's music in it before that point, and so you think why not? Why w you know, why not just continue things the way that it would go? You're not expecting that. But it does set you up to expect there to be some kind of musical thing, even though it is diegetic. The opening scene isn't just a straight Rogers and Hammerstein like song performance, like rehearsal in the reality. But it is both setting the stage like there will be music, like this is a promise. You're gonna you'll get there. We didn't hire Bjork for no reason, but you're gonna have to sit through a lot of setup before we get there.

[7:29] Adam Johnston: So that's what I think that purpose of them singing my favorite things in that opening number, as well as just setting up her general tastes that we're gonna subvert later.

[7:39] Jess McInally: Yeah, and they point out how she sings weird. She is not ideal casting choice for Maria, uh just throwing that out there.

[7:49] Adam Johnston: I don't know what that director was thinking and his frustration sympathy for me.

[7:55] Jess McInally: Yeah, he was just being nice, right? That's like revealed later on. He was just doing it because he knew that she liked musicals a lot, or he felt bad or something like that.

[8:03] Adam Johnston: I mean, everyone kind of feels bad for Selma in this. I feel like Selma's either idealized by like Peter Stormare or pitied by literally everyone else.

[8:12] Jess McInally: Yeah, well, I mean, there's like a lot of empathy that people show her. Um there's a lot of rules that are like bent or broken for her sake because they realize that she's going through tough times, you know.

[8:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. So Andrew, do you want to just break down what the this is all building to in your most direct blunt terms that I know you'll spit out?

[8:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, I can explain. Yeah. So I mean, we got the basics of it. Uh Selma's going blind. Um, she's living in America. She had moved there, and she's living on someone else's property, renting from a uh police officer and his wife. Um she's saving up money for her son's uh surgery that he needs. Um and the police officer um basically he's gonna lose his house because his wife is spending so much money and he doesn't have his inheritance anymore, so he decides he's gonna just steal from this blind woman. Um and that all leads to a confrontation where uh in the heavy spoilers, she kills him uh and takes the money and then pays for the operation, and then she goes to prison and gets the death sentence, and that's kind of the end of the movie.

It is all just leading into that death sentence, and that's the end. But then again, framing-wise, this is one of the happier Lars von Trier endings, because she sets out with this goal and goes through some things that bumps in the road and then achieves it by the end.

[9:39] Jess McInally: Um as far as a musical theater structure is concerned, she has her want, she goes through the hero's journey to get that, and she succeeds in getting it with consequences, of course, but it is resolution.

[9:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, there's very, very heavy consequences that will make you uh not feel very happy by the end.

[10:04] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's a really good ending, I think.

[10:06] Andrew DeWolf: It is.

[10:07] Jess McInally: No, uh I mean I'm not disagreeing. Uh it's fantastic, and I didn't do it justice at all. You should definitely watch it if you're listening to this.

[10:15] Andrew DeWolf: Well, if they're here at this point, I'm assuming they have watched it, and from those...

[10:15] Jess McInally: Oh come on, nobody actually listens to spoiler warnings.

[10:25] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I do. But I am also of the belief that spoilers don't innately ruin a movie.

[10:29] Jess McInally: They don't.

[10:29] Andrew DeWolf: They I don't think they do either, but um, so who who m who cares at this point? So let's talk about Lars von Trier and his stylistic choices.

[10:39] Adam Johnston: Um, this is the third part of the trilogy, the Golden Heart trilogy, about like women that are sinners and saints at the same time, which is basically like she is this altruistic, like woman that is also a murderer, so there's the oxymoron of that.

[10:54] Jess McInally: I have not seen the other two in the trilogy, but I know this one was the big finale and the one of the bigger different pieces.

[11:03] Adam Johnston: Um and this is different from most of Von Trier's films, if I remember correctly. The only other ones I've seen are Antichrist and Melancholia, and it's just apples and oranges with them, but you can still feel the same stylistic choices, as well as like the Stellan Skarsgård and Udo Kier of it all.

[11:22] Jess McInally: Which uh which films are in the trilogy? Because I know Breaking the Waves has to be.

[11:24] Adam Johnston: Uh because that's very similar. But then I'm looking online here. I don't know if this is like the an anything official, but I'm seeing like the idiots is also in the trilogy, which I would say that like that's so different.

[11:39] Jess McInally: That's that's doesn't feel like it's a part of the same thing, but I don't know.

[11:43] Adam Johnston: Yeah, apparently it's Breaking the Waves, The Idiots, and Dancer in the Dark are the things that's so weird. Breaking Breaking the Waves is very similar to Dancer in the Dark, but The Idiots is not at all.

[11:54] Jess McInally: Is it thematically?

[11:55] Adam Johnston: I I haven't seen these either.

[11:57] Jess McInally: Well is it like thematically similar in any way, or is it just the similarity is that there's a female character that is both a sinner and a saint?

[12:03] Adam Johnston: Um that both sins and is also saintly and different.

[12:07] Jess McInally: Yeah, The Idiots isn't really about that. Maybe I should watch it again.

[12:11] Adam Johnston: It's uh it's a little different.

[12:13] Jess McInally: Maybe that's not how the audience perceives it, but that's how he saw it.

[12:17] Adam Johnston: I don't know. You could you could take any number of meanings from I guess The Idiots or any number of one of Lars von Trier's films, but like I guess particularly The Idiots. Um depending on just how much you bullshit, I guess. You could say it's anything.

[12:31] Jess McInally: I mean, he also bullshits himself into a corner quite a bit.

[12:35] Adam Johnston: Um there is the infamous place where he admits to being a Nazi and understanding Hitler, where I feel like he had a point and just lost it at a certain point and just said a bunch of redonkulous, stupid things.

[12:47] Jess McInally: Um do not confuse that for me defending von Trier.

[12:51] Adam Johnston: That's just what I interpreted that moment as.

[12:54] Jess McInally: Um I guess we should talk about the relationship between Bjork and Lars von Trier on set of this film, which was very contentious, very mean, mostly because von Trier was like, She's not an actor, so I I just basically bullied her until she was actually feeling the way the character was feeling.

[13:14] Adam Johnston: And then Bjork was like, No, you shouldn't have done that. And even like when this was premiering at Cannes, like there were interviews, like that was the conversation where they're both on stage where she's like, You you should apologize. He's like, No, you're you did good in the movie, I'm not apologizing.

[13:30] Jess McInally: A true artist.

[13:33] Adam Johnston: And of course, much later she'd be like, Yeah, y this Danish filmmaker that will remain unnamed despite me being only in one film, really, and he's the only Danish filmmaker totally abused me. I'm not gonna say his name though.

[13:47] Jess McInally: Not gonna say his name, but yeah, it's definitely this one guy.

[13:51] Adam Johnston: And yeah, I hope she has better experiences with uh Robert Eggers.

[13:55] Jess McInally: Yes.

[13:55] Adam Johnston: Yeah, that's gonna be great. Robert Eggers seems like a real real cool guy.

[14:00] Jess McInally: Um, but uh better than Lars von Trier, let's just say that, but that's not a hard line to beat, to be honest.

[14:08] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[14:09] Jess McInally: Um, so I'm often like struck by this film and its stylistic choices. Um Adam, do you want to talk about the Dogma 95 movement and what that was and how its influences are still here?

[14:22] Adam Johnston: Uh yeah, so basically Dogma 95 was created by uh Thomas Vinterberg and I think Lars von Trier were the two that created it. Um and basically it was kind of like a uh film movement where they felt as though uh movies were losing what made them important, uh, and what should be communicated through writing or characters was instead communicated through things like overusage of music or editing or uh you know film quality or spectacle. And so basically it was like a challenge, I guess, to create films while stripping away as much of the spectacle as possible.

[15:00] Adam Johnston: So in their manifesto, uh they listed several rules, um, some of which included things like uh you can only use natural lighting, uh, you can't bring in lights from anywhere else, it just has to be whatever lighting is already there.

[15:14] Adam Johnston: Uh you can't take audio that isn't being recorded while you're filming, so you can't do like uh like non-diagetic music or anything like that.

[15:25] Adam Johnston: Um and a lot of these rules existed, and you know, you can't credit the director.

[15:31] Adam Johnston: But uh what's interesting about Dogma 95 is I don't think there's a single film that follows all the rules, even though they've certified as their organization, they're like, This is Dogma number one and this is Dogma number two, and then you know, Harmony Kareen's Julian Donkey Boy, they called the Dogma 95 film.

[15:48] Adam Johnston: Every I I don't think there's a single one that follows all the rules perfectly.

[15:52] Adam Johnston: Like uh Thomas Vinterberg later admitted, like, yeah, we brought in one light on one day.

[15:56] Adam Johnston: But you know, the the the idea exists uh of of trying to create a film where you're not doing anything like showy or flashy, and it does have this nice personality to it uh on these like cheaper looking cameras, and um, you know, it's kind of kind of like uh it doesn't look polished, and I think that that adds personality to it.

[16:19] Adam Johnston: So Dancer in the Dark is not a dogma 95 film.

[16:22] Adam Johnston: Uh even them the their organization uh which no longer exists, they didn't consider this one to be.

[16:28] Adam Johnston: Um but Mars Vun Trump has always uh enjoyed doing things kind of in this weird style where he would uh contrast like really abrasive camera movements and cuts with uh more uh stationary uh and professional camera movements and cuts.

[16:47] Adam Johnston: One great example would be Antichrist, where the contrast between uh just like the these scenes near the beginning where it's like mostly close-ups and like super shaky, the cuts happen in ways which are just like totally unconventional, where it's like you're cutting from one thing to the same thing without you know, it was it it's not neat and tightly edited or professional, and then you get to the shots in Antichrist where it's like uh they actually like invented new filming techniques for some of these, like these weird slow-mo and like crazy camera smoop swooping stuff where it's like, oh wow, so it's not these other parts weren't done because you weren't talented, they were done as an intentional obvious choice.

[17:24] Adam Johnston: So that's right.

[17:24] Adam Johnston: I don't know.

[17:25] Adam Johnston: That's kind of cool about it.

[17:26] Adam Johnston: It's also the juxtaposition scene in Melancholia with like the opening very super slow-mo scenes compared to like the yeah, back to dogma 95 style handheld cameras following Kirsten Dunce around.

[17:38] Adam Johnston: Um but I I liked that you had that in like like comparison between like the very dogma-esque shooting handheld for everything that's not sung, and then as soon as it's sung, we crank out the saturation 25% and we lock down the camera.

[17:55] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[17:55] Jess McInally: Although I would argue um if he had made this film when he had access to the same technology and I guess his own skill level or talent as he did when Antichrist existed, I think that this would have turned out pretty differently.

[18:09] Jess McInally: Because although the intent is really obvious in this film with the stationary cameras, and um I guess also because they involved uh dance choreography, they wanted to make sure that uh cuts were more consistent, like basically just film it happening once and then use these like 500 cameras that they have everywhere, right?

[18:26] Jess McInally: I feel like they still could have had like something that looked like more polished, and I guess like if you're trying to imitate the genre still, like I think I think they could have done a better job with it.

[18:37] Jess McInally: A lot of the shots seem like way too close still because they're trying to fit as many cameras in there as possible without looking at the other cameras in the frame.

[18:44] Jess McInally: And so some of it kind of seems messy, which kind of seems like almost like counterintuitive if you're trying to contrast the messiness of the previous scenes with that.

[18:53] Jess McInally: You're gonna want I don't know.

[18:54] Jess McInally: It it feels like he wasn't completely there yet skill level wise to be able to really pull off like a ideal contrast between two filming styles.

[19:03] Adam Johnston: Yeah, and I think the the technology doesn't help because the camera quality just doesn't look yeah like the the big musical number that he wants it to look like, you know.

[19:12] Adam Johnston: Yeah, it still looks like really kind of cheap.

[19:16] Jess McInally: I mean, yeah, that's that's the way to put it.

[19:18] Jess McInally: I I think there's like uh a disparity between like 'cause sometimes I think he's very good at setting up shots and figuring out where it goes and how to edit them together.

[19:27] Jess McInally: Um and other times it's just bad and like, oh you just threw a hundred cameras here and got what you got.

[19:32] Jess McInally: And the f the latter is the I've seen it all scene on the train where it's just like, oh, uh you didn't really look at what you were getting, uh you just threw cameras down on this train, got as much as you could and then called it a day.

[19:44] Adam Johnston: Whereas with musical one, sorry I interrupted.

[19:47] Jess McInally: Oh no worries.

[19:48] Jess McInally: Clecker, crash bang, like the the the shots that I have in my memory are all kind of like shitty looking.

[19:54] Jess McInally: They have weird angles, like they're like up in the corner of the ceiling.

[19:58] Jess McInally: Like it it's not how you would shoot a dance number in any other kind of movie, I don't think.

[20:02] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[20:02] Adam Johnston: But I will say the one that does feel like a dance number that like if just shot with like a little bit of a wider lens uh with the same exact shot composition is the Uldrich Novi uh courtroom um dance number.

[20:16] Adam Johnston: That feels like a properly shot dance number.

[20:19] Adam Johnston: Maybe it's just cause he knew he had Joel Gray on the set who knows his shit and was like, Oh I gotta gotta actually show up to work.

[20:25] Jess McInally: I think it was a combination of having the right amount of people and the right amount of space to film.

[20:31] Jess McInally: Uh the train, you know, the train sequence was like only two people, but like how are you gonna shoot that?

[20:36] Jess McInally: You know, like you know, you don't have a lot of places to put these cameras, and then the uh factory scene was like, okay, well, where are we gonna put the cameras here?

[20:45] Jess McInally: Like how much equipment are we gonna move around?

[20:47] Jess McInally: And there's also like a hundred people at the same time.

[20:49] Jess McInally: It's like that's yeah, I it it seemed too chaotic and messy to get something that looked really uh intentional, you know.

[20:56] Adam Johnston: Yes.

[20:56] Adam Johnston: Whereas the courtroom is just the perfect balance.

[20:59] Adam Johnston: I think the courtroom is like the best like musical number.

[21:02] Adam Johnston: I think um the the the factory scene is the most effective at like waking you up and being like, okay, this is what the movie is, it's chaos and it works.

[21:11] Adam Johnston: Um the one that I feel like just doesn't work um visually for me in any way is I think it's called Scatterheart, um, the one right after she murders the police officer.

[21:22] Adam Johnston: And it's like two people very simplistic, but I also feel like I'm spying on her a as she's singing the song rather than like watching her It's like you're on his uh indoor security system watching the uh song number one.

[21:37] Jess McInally: Yeah, so that's kind of what it is.

[21:38] Jess McInally: I felt like I was watching that that Chris Watts movie where they're like all in the cops um of body cam.

[21:48] Adam Johnston: I my issues with that song are more along the lines of like the lyricism and the tone, uh and just how they clash together in weird ways that don't seem like they fit.

[22:00] Adam Johnston: Um, which I mean, like you could say that about a lot of Bjork's musical style in regards to this film being like a musical sort of thing.

[22:09] Adam Johnston: Um, but this song in particular is one where it like it just seems to clash the most for me.

[22:14] Adam Johnston: Because like the lyrics and the tone, it's just like maybe you if you had a different tone, you could have the lyrics work where it's like I've called the police, but like because of because of the tone of the song, it's just like it's so weird because she's not saying it, you know, you'd want something like a bit more either energetic or you know, almost kind of like thrilling in a way or or uh urgent for for lines like that, where it's like, come on, hurry.

[22:40] Jess McInally: But it's like this weird kind of droning, like somber.

[22:44] Jess McInally: I think a lot of the songs are like that, but this sorry.

[22:48] Adam Johnston: I I no, that's fine.

[22:50] Adam Johnston: I think the argument for that scene, and I could see an argument being made by Bjork and Lars Vontrier being like, well, we kind of don't want people to mistake this for what's literally happening, as many Americans will just take, oh, it's happening in front of me.

[23:02] Adam Johnston: This is what's literally happening.

[23:04] Adam Johnston: So that kind of droning dreamlike speech is like, yeah, there's no way this is reality.

[23:09] Jess McInally: I don't think that's an issue if you change the tone of the song.

[23:13] Jess McInally: I I don't think many people thought that the clacker crash bang, whatever whatever thing was like reality.

[23:18] Adam Johnston: Um I'm just saying the lyrics seem to like conflict with the tone.

[23:22] Adam Johnston: It's just uh it seems so weird to put that there.

[23:25] Adam Johnston: Um I I like what the song builds into.

[23:27] Adam Johnston: I like when the strings come in near the end, uh, and she's singing what I had to do, or whatever.

[23:33] Adam Johnston: Like at that moment, then it's like, okay, I'm feeling something emotional.

[23:36] Adam Johnston: But like for the majority of that song, it's like, this is weird.

[23:39] Adam Johnston: You know, that's mostly what I'm I'm thinking.

[23:41] Jess McInally: Would it be better if the kid wasn't singing the chorus on his bike the entire time?

[23:46] Adam Johnston: That's goofy.

[23:47] Adam Johnston: Him just like on the bike, he's like riding his bike in circles, singing.

[23:53] Adam Johnston: And it's like the the um the the time signature is just so weirdly atypical, and like it's just I don't know.

[24:01] Adam Johnston: It's just it's a bizarre song for like such a such an important moment in the film, you know?

[24:07] Jess McInally: I don't know.

[24:08] Jess McInally: But have have you listened to the album version where it's basically Bjork where it's basically Bjork sings every line of that, there's no like cutting away when it's like it's uh whole different feel and it feels a lot more intense, and I'm like, why wasn't this the way it was done in the movie?

[24:24] Jess McInally: Where it's just all her when I'm hearing like some of the other actors singing in the film, it's a little not professional.

[24:32] Adam Johnston: Peter Stormair is the is the worst.

[24:34] Adam Johnston: Like I I love him, he's a great actor, but my god, he kind of ruins I've seen it all for me.

[24:39] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's a weird movie.

[24:40] Jess McInally: Because it's like there's there's so much like obvious production value and effort and thought put into so much of it, but at the same time it's also like kind of a indie myth.

[24:51] Adam Johnston: It's it they're both both of those things existing at once, you know.

[24:56] Jess McInally: An indie myth is like the perfect perfect description of a great movie in my opinion.

[25:01] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[25:01] Adam Johnston: A lot of stuff clashes, but I think the end result still still works.

[25:07] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[25:08] Jess McInally: Um I I I really want to talk about um Joel Gray in this movie, who is in here for five seconds, uh just so I can reel back in the theater fans for a moment.

[25:18] Jess McInally: Um do you know who Joel Gray is, Adam?

[25:20] Adam Johnston: No.

[25:21] Jess McInally: Okay, okay.

[25:22] Jess McInally: I uh this is gonna be fun.

[25:23] Jess McInally: He is a Broadway actor who also won an Oscar for cabaret.

[25:28] Jess McInally: Um he is mostly known for dancing.

[25:30] Jess McInally: He's Jennifer Gray's dad.

[25:32] Jess McInally: Um just for that.

[25:34] Jess McInally: He is one of the best and oldest, like original Broadway actors to still be like working in the business, and just seeing him pop up in this movie and his vocal quality is just so much on a different level that it blends so perfectly with Bjork's, like it it just brings me so much joy every time I get to that moment.

[25:53] Jess McInally: Like it is technically the last happy moment before the movie ends, so is it in the uh courtroom scene?

[26:00] Adam Johnston: Yes, he plays Noble.

[26:02] Jess McInally: He's Novi, right?

[26:03] Adam Johnston: Yeah, yeah.

[26:03] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[26:04] Jess McInally: So they you bring in this big Broadway star to play this big musical star.

[26:09] Jess McInally: It is great and was shocking for me the first time I watched it, 'cause I was like, Oh, we're just gonna get like all all the usual von Trier favorites.

[26:18] Jess McInally: You're gonna get the Udo Kirs, you're gonna get Stellan Skarsgard, Peter Stormare, like all the people you kind of expect, and then out of nowhere hear Joel Gray, what what?

[26:27] Jess McInally: And he just bursts out this big tap mo moment where we get to pay off all the tapping rehearsals we've seen beforehand and just see one knock it out of the park.

[26:35] Adam Johnston: That is the one scene that feels like a Bubsy Berkeley style musical number with dance breaks and everything.

[26:42] Adam Johnston: It's like absurd that the court they bring in old Rich Novi, though.

[26:47] Jess McInally: Might the only one thought that was like absurd.

[26:50] Adam Johnston: It's weird.

[26:51] Adam Johnston: Uh but I think we found that there's nobody else with that name.

[26:57] Jess McInally: Yes.

[26:57] Jess McInally: Yeah, like nobody else exit like I don't know.

[27:00] Jess McInally: What if her what if she actually did have someone named Old Rich Novi and it's just a coincidence?

[27:05] Adam Johnston: Like I I don't know.

[27:06] Adam Johnston: They knew that she was too stupid to defend herself properly.

[27:10] Jess McInally: Yeah, so they were they were honestly just flexing on her.

[27:13] Jess McInally: It was like a it was a gamer moment, you know.

[27:16] Adam Johnston: Yeah, they leveled up.

[27:18] Adam Johnston: They leveled up, they flexed on her.

[27:20] Jess McInally: It's like, yeah, we got old Rich.

[27:22] Jess McInally: He's gonna tap on the desk.

[27:23] Jess McInally: So Andrew, you brought up troubles you have with the courtroom scene earlier.

[27:27] Andrew DeWolf: Um, just about like logistics.

[27:30] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, just logistically, there is a lot the defense could have brought that they just did not.

[27:36] Andrew DeWolf: And I know she's lying and she doesn't want to tell the truth or whatever, but like they never find the money, and there's all this like romance stuff that they imply, so I feel like they could have got her at least second degree and maybe save the death penalty.

[27:49] Jess McInally: I don't know.

[27:50] Jess McInally: They do say uh after that her lawyer was terrible, and they tried to get the open, so they do say that, and I I tend to agree, but I don't think her lawyer even gets a line in the entire court scene, so I'm I mean, what do you imagine his defense would be?

[28:08] Andrew DeWolf: Um, she won't let me say anything, nor will she tell me what's going on, Your Honor.

[28:14] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, in her defense, uh, she's won't let me talk.

[28:20] Jess McInally: Um, all right.

[28:21] Jess McInally: It's time to go into a weird segment of the show, which is always kind of weird in our show when we talk about film straight adaptations, but it's where we compare our opinions to those of the critics when this came out.

[28:31] Jess McInally: It's time for breviews.

[28:33] Jess McInally: It's Tom Falls.

[28:38] Jess McInally: It's Tomful Previews.

[28:40] Jess McInally: Now, Adam, have you ever read like actual proper reviews of this movie?

[28:45] Adam Johnston: No.

[28:46] Adam Johnston: Okay, this is gonna be fun.

[28:48] Jess McInally: Alright.

[28:50] Jess McInally: No, um, it's gonna be a weird mix.

[28:53] Jess McInally: Um so Bree, you're gonna take this first one, and I'll take the second one from Roger Ebert, because I won I I love Roger Ebert's crazy way of writing.

[29:01] Brianna Jones: Okay, sounds good.

[29:02] Jess McInally: Also, you didn't say breviews like you normally.

[29:05] Jess McInally: You're right.

[29:06] Jess McInally: I brews that's my favorite part every week.

[29:10] Brianna Jones: So, okay.

[29:12] Brianna Jones: Um, so we have one from Kenneth Turer.

[29:16] Brianna Jones: Is that her is that him?

[29:17] Jess McInally: Okay, cool.

[29:18] Jess McInally: Alright, so LA Times top critic Kenneth Turer said, Lars von Tur.

[29:18] Brianna Jones: Lars Von.

[29:26] Jess McInally: Lars von Trier.

[29:27] Jess McInally: We're already there.

[29:28] Jess McInally: We got there.

[29:30] Jess McInally: I'm already killing the pronouncing pronouncing names.

[29:34] Brianna Jones: Truer.

[29:35] Brianna Jones: Like Greer, the cheese.

[29:37] Jess McInally: That's gonna be my cheese writing.

[29:38] Brianna Jones: No one take that.

[29:39] Jess McInally: No, I won't take it.

[29:40] Jess McInally: Lars von Greer.

[29:42] Brianna Jones: Okay, so Lars Vontier's dancers in the dark.

[29:46] Brianna Jones: Uh, the most morose, morose of musicals is exasperating and it's contradiction, so frustrating and it's fakery, so deeply irritating in its pretensions is frankly hard to know where to begin to dissect it.

[30:03] Andrew DeWolf: Um, the only... Wow. Yeah, that's pretty rough, right?

[30:08] Adam Johnston: Yeah, and this is like the morning after its premiere at Cannes. This isn't like with five years of hindsight. This is like fresh review next day.

[30:17] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[30:18] Adam Johnston: The only actor to survive two hours and twenty minutes of this tedium is Bjork, called on to carry a misery-laden picture without any acting training to fall back on. Bjork, by all reports, had to more or less live Selma's tortured life to get it on film. Bjork was not acting anything; she was feeling everything, is how Von Trier explained the process in Cannes. And that made it extremely hard on herself and everyone else.

[30:53] Andrew DeWolf: In a musical, nothing dreadful ever happens, says Selma during a break between the tortures of the damned. When I worked in the factory, I used to dream of being in a musical. After all she's been through, who has the heart to tell her she couldn't possibly stand the one she's in? I think that this guy just didn't get it, and I hate just being that dismissive, but I feel like he was caught in the mood.

[31:18] Adam Johnston: And have you ever read about what happened at the Cannes screening, Andrew?

[31:18] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[31:18] Adam Johnston: What happened?

[31:24] Andrew DeWolf: At the end, it was equal parts cheering and booing. It was like every Cannes premiere.

[31:31] Adam Johnston: That's like, that's like why you go to Cannes and fake and do. Um, it's incredible, but I feel like he was caught up in that wave of like, uh, I think I'm leaning negative. Where I can't imagine how I'd react to such a visceral film in an audience where the tension is that tight. Have you ever seen this with like a full audience, Adam?

[31:54] Adam Johnston: Uh, no, I haven't.

[31:55] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[31:56] Adam Johnston: The closest I have is when they screened it in one of my classes, and just like watching the rest of the room was an incredible experience, and that was like my fifth time seeing it, so it was like I'm not even watching the movie at this point.

[32:08] Andrew DeWolf: Did a lot of them hate it?

[32:10] Adam Johnston: Yeah, like a lot of them were just too emotional, like, why did we watch this? And the teacher was very much like, this is to show you Verite style. This is to show you like that not everything needs to be shot. It was a great teacher, a wonderful teacher of cinematography that was just showing different cinema styles, and it doesn't all have to look like Roger Deakins to be an effective story, which is great, but you could have shown a Sean Baker film and done the same thing without torturing us, like, theoretically. Um, you could have traumatized us and given us that same lesson.

[32:43] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it was great to watch other people's reaction, but you could cut the tension in that room with a knife.

[32:49] Adam Johnston: That's great.

[32:50] Andrew DeWolf: Um, the next day we watched Crash, so there was a very mixed bag in that class, I'll say that.

[32:57] Adam Johnston: But which one?

[32:58] Andrew DeWolf: Um, the bad one.

[33:00] Adam Johnston: Okay.

[33:01] Andrew DeWolf: The one that won Best Picture. You know, the bad one.

[33:03] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: Um, alright. Now I'm gonna read the Roger Ebert review from that same screening the next day, which I've also cut out the part where he just randomly calls characters by the R-sler, which was weird.

[33:17] Adam Johnston: Oh, does he?

[33:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he calls Peterson's character the Arsenal.

[33:25] Adam Johnston: That's hilarious.

[33:26] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. That's a nice thing to say. Um, nailed it, Ebert.

[33:32] Adam Johnston: Yeah, he's not always the most cautious about those things.

[33:36] Andrew DeWolf: So he said, some reasonable people will admire Lars von Trier's Dancer in the Dark, and others will despise it. An excellent case can be made for both positions. The first press screening at Cannes was at 8:30 AM. After the screening, the auditorium filled with booing and cheering so equal in measure that people started booing or cheering at each other as well. I sat in my seat, ready to cheer or boo. When I made up my mind, I let the movie marinate and saw it again, and was able to see what Von Trier was trying to do. Having made a vow of chastity with his famous Dogma 95 statement, which calls for films to be made simply with handheld cameras and available light, he is now divesting himself of modern fashions and plotting. Dancer in the Dark is a brave throwback to the fundamentals of cinema, to co-heroines and villains, noble sacrifices and dastardly betrayals.

[34:45] Adam Johnston: Whatever.

[34:47] Andrew DeWolf: It's alright.

[34:47] Adam Johnston: He's not doing much anymore, anyways.

[34:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah. Where has he been?

[34:52] Adam Johnston: He'll come back in, uh, after his long hiatus, right?

[34:56] Andrew DeWolf: You know what? He just had too much of the YouTube drama and decided to step back for a while. He got canceled on Twitter, but for saying the R-surf in the Dancer in the Dark review.

[35:08] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[35:08] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, we're gonna, yeah, we're getting a cancel in the second time. Let's get this. Spread the word. Get this out there.

[35:12] Adam Johnston: Yeah, yeah. Cancel Roger Ebert.

[35:14] Andrew DeWolf: Um, he didn't like Rent, so cancel him.

[35:19] Adam Johnston: Oh, that'll get our audience going. Fun fact, that was something like that people at the time were really angry about for no reason was the fact that he gave a thumbs up or gave a positive review on the show, but gave a negative review on his website for the movie Rent, and like everyone in the community was just really ticked off.

[35:38] Andrew DeWolf: That's hilarious.

[35:39] Adam Johnston: But the movie Rent isn't good, so...

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: No, it isn't.

[35:42] Adam Johnston: No, it is very bad.

[35:45] Andrew DeWolf: But people on the internet are insane even back then.

[35:48] Adam Johnston: On that positive note.

[35:50] Andrew DeWolf: On that positive note, um, let's go into a mid-show announcement and get some money.

[36:00] Adam Johnston: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a shill at you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. In case you don't know, Patreon is a place where you get free shit from us. Uh, well, not free, you paid for monthly, kind of. Andrew, what do we have up there?

[36:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh boy, well, we just put out some new commentaries on musical theater fails and blunders, bloopers, I suppose you'd call them. Uh, trailer reactions, a bunch of crap.

[36:28] Adam Johnston: Trailer reactions.

[36:31] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, we're gonna have some more stuff up there too. We're trying to get to it.

[36:35] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[36:35] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, but who's supporting us currently?

[36:38] Adam Johnston: Well, our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Terry Needleman, John Donna, Terry, Late in the Ackles, um, Danielle Rennes, Jess the Stampede, Elon Cassidy, Task Gear, Fire September, Monica Thoreau, Mina Meneary, Brent Black, Hailey Murray, B Way Flix, Athaniel Stacey Coomb, Joseph Evans Green, Carrie Ahern, Christine Malmadal, Mary Louis Choquette, John Van Alz, Heck U. I go by Elijah Now, Russ Walker, Misa Gohelm, Mi Emily Gracie, Andrew Van Barsen, Temple AM, Kyle Summers, Janay C, Christina Francis, Scoot and the Technical or Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, Cory Wilmart, Alison Stellar, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, John Van Alz, Thesbian, Ren Cullen, Wait in the Wings, Lady Malvolia, Spectacle Machine, Jacob Stroop, Raphael Mitt Martinez Salaz, uh, Robert Benjamin, Rachel T, Jessica T, Genevieve Hartnett, Cass, Michelle Young, Chai T, Cup Hayden Wilder, Katie McDonough, Genki Guy, Stackis, Timothy Keyes, Jeffrey Machado, Jacqueline Spring, Toon Van Essen, Jesse Taylor, and that's it.

[37:33] Andrew DeWolf: And these folks give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, such as patron-only commentaries, our episodes a day earlier, even earlier, come join us over at Patreon. Also, we've got a ton of merch on our merch store. Just go to Musicals with Cheese dot com and click the merch button.

[37:51] Adam Johnston: Alright, let's get back to it.

[38:38] Andrew DeWolf: First and foremost, which is so incredible, so like teasing of other things, and also just very weird when it pops up in a bunch of other things, because it's basically treated as a pop song at this point. Um, I remember it being in a Michael Moore documentary, um, the one about like other countries being better than America, and then just when he's like wrapping up his thesis statement, I'm like, is that is that fucking dance from the dark you're playing at the end?

[39:06] Adam Johnston: Interesting.

[39:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it is, uh, it's one of my favorite pieces of music, honestly, in the movie. Um, I wish more of the music was like that. Because it does kind of like imply this more formal traditional musical kind of style to it that I think really could have worked, uh, but then it wouldn't really be Bjork music anymore.

[39:28] Adam Johnston: Uh, so most of it had to be weird. But then at the end credits of the movie, there's kind of like a nice combination of the two. Um, you know, I don't know. I like the string instruments a lot.

[39:37] Andrew DeWolf: So I completely agree. It is one of the most big feeling, and for an overture, it is weird that it only kind of sets up the finale, which I find very fascinating, but also very effective. What do we think about like the visual style of the opening credits?

[39:54] Adam Johnston: Because I remember that kind of both engaging me and throwing me off. I didn't get it right away, but after learning the plot, I feel like it's, is it meant to imply going blind almost, is my thought? Because like visually it's hard to tell what's happening and they kind of fade and crossfade really slowly between things.

[40:17] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[40:17] Adam Johnston: I'm willing to bet money that it's there because Lars Von Trier thought it looked cool.

[40:22] Andrew DeWolf: Um, he does.

[40:24] Adam Johnston: I might be reading more into it than needed then.

[40:27] Andrew DeWolf: He really likes the painted titles and like, you know, intro cards and stuff like he does a lot of this in a bunch of his movies.

[40:35] Adam Johnston: Um, yeah.

[40:36] Andrew DeWolf: So it's not this, this isn't like an outlier or anything, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[40:42] Adam Johnston: Okay.

[40:42] Andrew DeWolf: But it worked.

[40:43] Adam Johnston: I had a cool explanation and everything.

[40:44] Andrew DeWolf: I thought it was that.

[40:46] Adam Johnston: I mean, I think it might be wrong.

[40:50] Andrew DeWolf: My perspective doesn't invalidate yours.

[40:53] Adam Johnston: That is, yeah.

[40:54] Andrew DeWolf: I say it does.

[40:55] Adam Johnston: You know what? Andrew, your opinion is invalidated now. Just shut your fucking mouth.

[41:02] Andrew DeWolf: I, uh, I did actually like it though. I was a little confused at first, but I guess my post hoc explanation, uh, I fixed it in my own mind, so I'm gonna keep it.

[41:13] Adam Johnston: I mean, I think that's not a bad way to view it, because I remember, oh, what is it? Is it a Jim Jarmusch film, the blue, blue where it's just nothing but the color blue for the entire time because he was going blind due to AIDS and that's kind of the color he saw, so there is a justification, maybe I'm gonna pretend.

[41:34] Andrew DeWolf: I'm gonna pretend.

[41:35] Adam Johnston: I liked it. I hurt my eyes though, a little bit. I was trying to read words and something because it looked like there might have been words, but there definitely weren't any words.

[41:45] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, that's good.

[41:46] Adam Johnston: Alright, let's go on to the next song.

[41:48] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Kvalda, um, which is her friend's name, correct?

[41:53] Adam Johnston: It's what she calls her friend; it's not actually her name.

[42:43] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, this is the song in the factory, right?

[42:49] Adam Johnston: Yes, the most Bjork song ever Bjorked.

[42:53] Andrew DeWolf: I like the music style. I know it's kind of just Bjork songs, but I think it's interesting. You don't hear much of it in music theaters, so it's different.

[43:03] Adam Johnston: I don't know. I mean, it doesn't feel like they're trying to sell you something. This isn't just like, um, A Star is Born where it's just like buy this Lady Gaga album that is also the soundtrack of this film, where this is literally just a Bjork album that is the soundtrack. It doesn't feel that way. It feels like, yeah, that would be kind of how this character would interpret it.

[43:23] Andrew DeWolf: I also like that the noise that is integrated into the song is the noise that is always whenever they're in the factory, even like well before it and after that. That it's always that same rhythmic style.

[43:34] Adam Johnston: Yeah, it teases it beforehand, and on second watches, you can definitely pick up like, oh, that's just the song right now. Even though we're not getting into it yet, you know, early on in the film. It's those little teases.

[43:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um, visually, like the way that they kind of turn this like a gray-looking thing and that without really affecting the colors or bringing in like Nizon Sen, like different variations, kind of make it feel more alive. Um, that is a strange choice where literally they will change nothing about the production design to try to make it more musical. They will literally only change the way it is shot as well as the color correction to imply fantasy musical segment.

[44:13] Adam Johnston: But I think it works.

[44:14] Andrew DeWolf: I think it works really well. Everyone also starts dancing. I mean, I don't know if you picked up on that.

[44:19] Adam Johnston: Yeah, I mean, that is fair.

[44:27] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I think also, aside from Joel Grey, um, the woman that plays Kvalda, Quelda, is the best singer outright outside from Bjork and Joel Grey.

[44:39] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[44:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, lots of energy. I liked this track. Um, but yeah, I mean, like I don't know.

[44:48] Adam Johnston: I do like the music in it, but I still wish it was something a bit different. I feel like the full potential of this film could have been realized if it was a little less Bjorky sounding. So let's say hypothetically, they keep Bjork in the lead role, keep her voice, and they bring in like a Mark Shaman or someone that can replicate like real intense original Broadway. I don't have any issues with her voice at all. All my favorite artists pretty much have like really weird distinct voices. The favorite singers that I listen to, it's just the style of the music itself that I find to be like a little clashing, and yeah, you can justify it because her character's weird and they say at the beginning that she has weird ideas about music and the way she sings is different and blah blah blah blah.

Like, yeah, it's justified in the film's universe, but I'm just saying, like personally, from my own perspective of what I would want out of it, I feel like there was a lot untapped in terms of how emotionally powerful a song could be especially with this universe and story.

[45:52] Jess McInally: I feel like you have like a specific composer sound or even like kind of movie sound you have in mind for like your ultimate person.

[45:59] Adam Johnston: Oh man, I mean like the overture at the beginning, like if it was more like that or even like the end credits, you know, like it's touching on what I would want. I would like it to sound a bit more orchestral. You know, it's difficult to describe, but I just feel like it's a bit conflicting for my own personal taste. If I'm thinking about the most emotional parts of the movie, I'm not thinking about any song. I'm not thinking about any scene during a song except for maybe the end when it was just her voice, right? Like those are the most emotional parts of the movie, to do with the core plot elements of like the betrayal and how she sacrificed everything for her son and how the police officer is using his power and taking advantage of her and how she is given a way out and winds up doing the right thing anyway because she sacrificed everything and then her hanging at the end.

Those are all the most emotionally powerful parts of the film. But in a musical, I should also be thinking about the songs as being the most emotionally powerful parts. But they're not, and sure the songs are good, like there's some catchiness to them. They're not terrible songs, they're very Bjorky. A lot of people love Bjork. But at no point in the actual songs in this musical that are taking place during these emotional scenes and plot beats, at no point am I really feeling the full potential of what music could offer in one of those scenes. And I love the movie. I'm just like, I feel like there's some potential that wasn't fully realized.

[47:24] Jess McInally: I think in a few of the songs, I disagree that it shouldn't be. I like the industrial feel of it because she is imagining the music from industrial instruments essentially. So I feel like the way they do that, it kind of works, at least in a few of the songs. Though I think part of the reason the music isn't as memorable in these emotional parts is because they don't put the music in the emotional scenes. You know, like there's no song to some extent during those.

[47:53] Adam Johnston: I don't know if I fully agree with that. I'm not saying you have to kill any of the industrial sounds, even. I guess part of what my disagreement here would have to just be like in terms of the chord progression, like what are you communicating emotionally with that clacker crash bang thing? Like the chorus of that obviously has a lot of energy, a lot of happiness. We feel that this is like this musical world that she's living in. But then you get into the verse and it's just like this weird, like kind of mysterious, like, uh, yeah. And it's like, what am I getting from that emotionally? And again, like with the, uh, you just so weird. I don't know.

[48:35] Jess McInally: I agree with that one because the melody in that one is just wacky. I don't know. I would write it differently, is all I'm saying.

[48:42] Adam Johnston: Maybe, I mean, I kind of see what you're saying, but maybe if Bjork was the one performing those elements, both those elements are the ones that are decidedly not performed by Bjork. Maybe she's the only one that could pull it off. I don't know. It is obviously very jarring anytime anyone else is singing that isn't Bjork. Sometimes they pull it off pretty well, but it is often that it doesn't quite feel right to the ear.

[49:10] Jess McInally: Yeah. I see what you're saying, and I agree. I would love a more orchestral score to this. But I feel like there is the fight push and pull fight of like there has to be a tri real world trigger auditory for every song. I think that is the truth for all of them. I don't think you have to get rid of that. I think you can still incorporate those things. I don't think that those are mutually exclusive.

[49:35] Adam Johnston: So what you'd want is to keep the industrial style beats but incorporate strings?

[49:35] Jess McInally: Yeah, I mean like, yeah, you incorporate more strings. You can do that. Have less weird chord progressions and time signatures. Like I'm not trying to say like, oh, you can't do any weird or interesting things. I'm just saying like there are parts in the movie where I would like to be feeling the raw emotions of something, but instead I'm just going, oh, this is interesting and weird. You know, like that's what it's driving my mind towards, and I would prefer to get the full experience of what narratively I should be getting out of the scene.

[50:10] Adam Johnston: Yeah. No, I mean I agree with that actually. Especially in the more like after she kills the guy, that song especially should just be more straightforward. And then even like the ending, like the 107 steps, like that song is like what is even going on? I don't know. I mean I don't mind that one, there's not a lot going on in that one.

[50:31] Jess McInally: Not a lot.

[50:32] Adam Johnston: Yeah, but it's building up to something and I don't really know if it builds up very well. I mean it's a countdown, so to say it works in a way where it kind of is. I am so flipping curious to Adam's opinion on like Bjork's soundtrack version of this where she masters all of them because there are much more orchestral elements added in.

[50:54] Jess McInally: Especially, I've never heard it. Why didn't they use that in the movie?

[50:58] Adam Johnston: Because I feel like Lars von Trier had a budget, B, like had an aesthetic that probably did not fit into as much as that. And like probably Bjork was worried too much about acting and performing and writing these songs that she didn't quite get a chance to get all of her songwriting people involved in mastering it the way that she has without any outside elements bringing it.

[51:22] Jess McInally: Yeah, I honestly would have just assumed that if I bought a soundtrack for the film, it would have been the same shit. I had no idea it was.

[51:28] Adam Johnston: No, it is not. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worst. Yeah, I'm very curious about it. I'll check it out later. It does bother me a bit like that.

[51:40] Jess McInally: You just have this Selma Songs album that Bjork made.

[51:45] Adam Johnston: Interesting. Um, but I do want to talk briefly about "I've Seen It All," um, the Oscar-nominated song from this.

[51:55] Jess McInally: You've never been to Niagara Falls.

[52:02] Adam Johnston: I have seen what it's water that's I fall tower the MISTA. My pose was as high on my buried system.

[52:49] Jess McInally: Um, but she sang that song wearing the Swan Dress at the Oscars, and it was a moment, and she did a very good job with that song. I think the orchestration, even as she performed it live, was better than what was in the movie. I think it's one of the better songs in the show, and one of the ones that is actually a reaction to plot points in a way where it feels like a proper musical number. It seems the most fitting in terms of like my earlier criticisms about the weird tones and sounds. It's like this, you know, it still incorporates the train sounds. There's a lot of musical elements in it that are more traditional, and it's able to do both, and it feels like it fits properly. I'm gonna I think this is the best song in the show, or the one that I remember the most.

[53:41] Adam Johnston: Yeah, at the very least. I do want to talk about musical theater structure just to try to frame this thing that is definitely not written as musical theater structure into it.

[53:51] Jess McInally: It doesn't fit musical theater structure at all, though.

[53:53] Adam Johnston: It does.

[53:54] Jess McInally: Oh, go off.

[53:56] Adam Johnston: You've got the overture, which sets up the themes, like in theory. Valdo sets up the rules of the world, what she does for a living and how she escapes. Technically, that sets up the world in the same way as like tradition from Oklahoma or from Fiddler on the Roof. Like it is effective. And then "I've Seen It All" is the I Want song, where she said, "You don't want." Well, an I Want song just basically says goals and opinion.

[54:21] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[54:21] Adam Johnston: Like what is gonna set us on the road. Yeah, it happens more than an hour in, but structurally, it's sound, and then we have our 11 o'clock number, which is next to the last song, and then we have New World that wraps it all up. This is a musical theater structure, whether they intended it or not.

[54:40] Jess McInally: I mean, maybe they did intend it. I mean, I'm sure when they wrote the songs, they didn't expect it to be an hour in when they get to that first one, but here's an argument. Why not have Qualda be like the first time we see her in the factory and she just ha and move that song up so we kind of set up the non-diagenic singing a little earlier.

[55:03] Adam Johnston: I think it's less impactful if you do it that way.

[55:07] Jess McInally: I don't know. I like that it delays it. I like that it lets you soak up the characters and narrative a bit before getting into that. It makes it more jarring.

[55:16] Adam Johnston: I mean, I was about an hour in, I'm like, wait, is there even any more songs in this?

[55:22] Jess McInally: No, I mean I agree.

[55:23] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[55:23] Jess McInally: I was like an hour in though, and I'm like, is this a musical or is it just about musicals? And then then they start singing and it's like, oh, okay. And I am not in any way suggesting it is better to do that. I'm just like, in theory, could we do that and would it change anything for negative or positive?

[55:38] Adam Johnston: So you're when you're saying when we move it to the stage, which we're of course going to do at some point. If Bjork and Lars von Trier decide they want to collaborate with Julie Taymor to turn this into a stage musical, you move Kelda to the beginning. And Bjork writes ten more songs, and it's just as nightmare inducing as usual.

[55:59] Jess McInally: I think they did do it on the stage version of it.

[56:03] Adam Johnston: Really?

[56:03] Jess McInally: Yeah, they have a DVD that I haven't watched. I don't know who did it.

[56:07] Adam Johnston: Unmarked.

[56:09] Jess McInally: But I definitely have a DVD that I picked up not too long ago.

[56:13] Adam Johnston: Oh my god. I would watch a hell out of that.

[56:16] Jess McInally: I found it on eBay, I think, but I was like, yeah, I'll watch this.

[56:31] Adam Johnston: There's not like anything like Andrew, it goes by your rule that all musicals end in a court case.

[56:37] Jess McInally: Like literally, that is your...

[56:37] Adam Johnston: It doesn't end in the court case, so that's more like halfway.

[56:42] Adam Johnston: Well, two-thirds in because it ends in something better than a court case, an execution.

[56:44] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[56:47] Jess McInally: Yeah, yeah, just like Parade.

[56:50] Adam Johnston: Yeah, it's if it's Parade.

[56:52] Jess McInally: Yeah, I guess they don't need to bring this to Broadway. Parade already exists.

[56:56] Adam Johnston: Um, I mean talk about the in the musicals scene, both of them really quick.

[57:41] ♪ Musical number ♪

[58:05] Adam Johnston: She will always be there too.

[58:26] Jess McInally: Well, they just split one song into two different scenes, basically.

[58:30] Adam Johnston: Well, yeah, but they also kind of change the instrumentation and the way that it vibes and you've got a duet going on and a dance break. I feel like you don't need the first one, but I'm happy it's there. I had weird feelings about it, especially this time, and I feel like I felt this way watching it many different times. But if I'm supposed to believe that her, if I'm supposed to believe that the musical scenes that we're seeing are a representation of her escapism from the, you know, mundane aspects of her life, how she's doing all these things for her son and putting her into a state of mind where she needs to escape at the factory, blah blah blah. It all makes sense up until that scene where she's escaping from watching the musical that she supposedly wants to be watching and starts thinking of other music.

Where it's like that narrative just seems so weird because like I thought that that was your escapism, but now you're escaping from something that every moment of this movie is you is saying that you actually like. So why are you daydreaming then if she likes seeing it?

[59:44] Andrew DeWolf: So I don't I don't know if I like it being there. The second one escaping from her own room I like but yeah maybe she's escaping from her own guilt like emotions and guilt but she wasn't why not escape to stay was she was like the Yeah why not escape into the music that's actually playing right why make up your own song narratively I mean like it's it's at the service of her saying they'll always be there to catch me and then she gets cut right like that was the then she yeah that's what it's a pun it was made to that that's why they put it there is just for that moment.

[1:00:18] Adam Johnston: And that's a good moment but man if if they would have structured it around differently and like let's say the stage director was like oh no just stay here for a minute I promise we'll show you this later and then she had to sit there doing nothing for like a minute and then it turned into that escapism that would have you know you would have had the exact same moment at the end but it would have been a bit more narratively justified I think.

[1:00:44] Jess McInally: Yeah I agree.

[1:00:46] Andrew DeWolf: But also I the the second one is just so good. The second one is like the best scene in the entire movie for me. And like 20 different being very strange that they got this tap dancer to fly over to this court case but other than that I mean it's fun you got the tapping scene on the desk I mean it's that's a fun number.

[1:01:04] Adam Johnston: I mean yes but also like all the extras are into it and well choreographed whereas like the choreography and all the other scenes is dubious to like bad.

[1:01:14] Andrew DeWolf: Um I think the choreography is actually good and I've seen it all just shot terribly. Like where you got all the dancers on the train, and I'm like, that's such a cool idea dancing on a train, and then he just shot it badly.

[1:01:26] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[1:01:27] Adam Johnston: Um and this, like every single person, it's on point. Every cut is driven and it feeds the momentum. And I feel like this is this in Falda are the only two like ones where the momentum builds with the edits, and it doesn't become quite as chaotic as Valda, but it does it feels right.

[1:01:46] Andrew DeWolf: It feels correct. And you've got that and that is the last bit of happiness we got. And then we have 107 steps, which is a great rhythmic piece. Um wonderful noise soundscape. But I get what you were saying, Andrew, of oh, it's just counting.

[1:02:05] Adam Johnston: 30 31 33. 39 40. 462, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46. 49. 531. 54. 55.

[1:02:30] Andrew DeWolf: I like it. I don't have any real issues with this. Like it. I just I felt like it could build more. Uh with I don't know, that'd be more dark, but I guess maybe you don't need more darkness at all.

[1:02:50] Adam Johnston: I feel like if you made it more dark, it would be a hat on a hat.

[1:02:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:02:54] Adam Johnston: You probably would. I don't have any issues with this this one at all. Um also want to give credit to the character actor that plays the prison guard that walks her down. Um, like I watched her and I'm like, I know I've seen her somewhere, and I don't know. She's like a Zemeckus favorite, where she's like in a bunch of Zemeckis films. She's most notably like the bus driver from Forrest Gump, but she's like incredible in these final scenes. Like absolutely a very necessary character in the film, I feel.

[1:03:46] Andrew DeWolf: And then if this next song doesn't break you, then I mean you're just not you have no emotions. Next to last song in New World, like I feel like they're hand in hand together.

[1:04:57] Adam Johnston: Live singing. Like the one time I think in the entire show, aside from like the when the dog bites and all that where she's singing live. Um the one time it's truly diegetic within the world and the most painful song to listen to.

[1:05:12] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[1:05:12] Adam Johnston: No issues with it at all. Love it. Works works really well for what it's doing. Um great reincorporation about you know how she wanted to like walk out of the theater in the second to last song so that it's always playing forever. And I love how that's tied back into this. Um yeah. Great. But nothing no issues with these last ones at all.

[1:05:34] Andrew DeWolf: I think that I get Andrew's Andrew brought up to me before that he thought it was a little cheap that she just runs up to her and gives the glasses to her. Like, oh, your son, he's okay. It feels like they wanted to tack on that she gets some sort of some sort of happy ending. And I kind of get that, but I out of that moment. Um and it wouldn't be like the most illogical thing in the film.

[1:06:02] Adam Johnston: So no, I mean there's more. Uh yeah. I guess after being punched in the gut for two and a half hours, I was like, man, that was weird that they tried to give me a lollipop.

[1:06:14] Jess McInally: But it's not even like a happy moment. It's like really bittersweet too, you know?

[1:06:18] Andrew DeWolf: I feel really is. I feel like I I get more emotional from that than it's it's not like to dampen the emotions. It's not to make you feel better, really.

[1:06:27] Adam Johnston: I don't know. And it is what triggers the last song, because I don't think she would have sang the last song if that didn't happen.

[1:06:33] Andrew DeWolf: So the next to last song, pardon me. I wanna say uh th my first watch, which was probably an incorrect interpretation, was that that character had lied and just A, she waits until literally the last moment she can to just say this to her, and she just kind of all she has is the glasses, and I'm like what if she's just lying to try to like make her friend feel good in the last moment? Because A, she didn't have all the money together for the surgery, and I don't believe like the doctor would just be like that's enough. We're America.

[1:07:05] Adam Johnston: So part of me is like uh what if she just lied to kind of like calm her down and make it go easier?

[1:07:13] Jess McInally: But maybe I'm wrong in that interpretation.

[1:07:15] Adam Johnston: That's possible, although honestly I feel like that makes it like worse. At least give her the happy ending if you're gonna do that.

[1:07:22] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, the thing is we don't see the kid again. The kid is barely a character in this. He is a plot device to get her through a lot of torture.

[1:07:31] Adam Johnston: True.

[1:07:32] Andrew DeWolf: Which is fine and it works. There's possibilities for anything if it's not explicitly shown in the movie. What if the police officer's still alive and it was all just a really elaborate prank in that?

[1:07:42] Adam Johnston: That is a great prank.

[1:07:43] Andrew DeWolf: Got him. Alright, let's wrap this on up. So everyone, what is our overall thoughts on Dance in the Dark and our cheese rating?

[1:07:50] Jess McInally: Um I'm gonna make Andrew go first just so Adam gets the pointless thing of the cheese rating.

[1:07:55] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, uh, sure. Uh geez, what am I even Okay, well, as far as the movie goes, uh I don't know. I I I really liked it. It I watched it yesterday and I'm still getting over it. It's uh it's really well done. Uh if you like heavy movies, uh, you will enjoy. Uh if you don't, probably don't watch it. But yeah. As far as uh a cheese rating, oh boy. So we're supposed to pick a cheese that is like how you feel. Literally, it's just us kind of making fun of ratings at the end of playing videos in my tests.

[1:08:28] Adam Johnston: Yeah.

[1:08:28] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know if I can give a cheese that makes is is this powerful. I don't know. I'll give it like a give anything pepper jack. I'm really never given a pepperjack before. There you go. And this it hurts it hurts your mouth, but you still enjoy it.

[1:08:43] Adam Johnston: There you go.

[1:08:49] Jess McInally: That is fair. Alright, Adam, do you think you're ready?

[1:08:53] Adam Johnston: Um sure. Yeah. Love the movie. Uh one of my favorites uh from Lars Von Trier for sure. That an anti-christ. There are some ways that it could be improved. Uh but I mean overall it's generally what it tries to do, it succeeds at doing. Uh very powerful and emotional. Um yeah, very well made overall. And I'm giving this uh camel's milk cheese. I I I I love it. I don't even need a reason.

[1:09:26] Jess McInally: I get it.

[1:09:28] Adam Johnston: That feels perfect.

[1:09:30] Jess McInally: Um so Bree, how did you like our discussion and your cheese rating on that?

[1:09:35] Brianna Jones: You know what? I really enjoyed this discussion. I um I feel like sometimes you guys don't typically sell me on a movie or um a musical, but this one I feel like you guys really sold me. I love the fact that this has that it was so like emotionally impactful, especially on Andrew. Um this one hurt me, okay? Like I I'm emotional guy. This hurt. I should have shot you a text to be like, yo, this film, this film will not make you feel good.

[1:10:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, I like that kind of stuff, but you know, it doesn't it does, in fact, um pretty well, and I I didn't know what to expect. But I love that. I I love a movie that will make you feel something, uh, even if it is uh sadness. Um, so I said my cheese rating earlier and I didn't want to do any research, so we're going with Lars Von Greer.

[1:10:28] Jess McInally: Great.

[1:10:30] Andrew DeWolf: That might be one of your best cheese ratings yet.

[1:10:32] Jess McInally: Um it's also probably the only time we can use that pun on the show.

[1:10:35] Andrew DeWolf: So we will never Lars Ron Trier film.

[1:10:38] Jess McInally: I don't think we'll he's unless he's gonna do musical.

[1:10:42] Adam Johnston: And if so, I would happily go see it.

[1:10:44] Jess McInally: I hope him and Bjork Men Bridges.

[1:10:47] Adam Johnston: I doubt they will.

[1:10:48] Jess McInally: Um doesn't doesn't seem like that will happen.

[1:10:51] Andrew DeWolf: No, never in a thousand years.

[1:10:52] Jess McInally: Um, but my cheese rating is Mainland Special Reserved Creamery Kember Cheese.

[1:10:59] Andrew DeWolf: Um, from New World Creamery.

[1:11:02] Brianna Jones: Um, because there is a song in this show called New World.

[1:11:06] Jess McInally: Very well researched.

[1:11:07] Brianna Jones: You did a great job.

[1:11:08] Jess McInally: I give myself a C minus.

[1:11:09] Andrew DeWolf: Adam, thank you so much for being on the show.

[1:11:12] Adam Johnston: You were great.

[1:11:12] Jess McInally: You brought so much like intelligence to a merry dumb show that we usually do. We appreciate that.

[1:11:17] Adam Johnston: Um promote all your stuff. Tell everyone where they can find you.

[1:11:22] Adam Johnston: Uh I have a YouTube channel, it's called Your Movie Sex. Uh I trash movies, but I also recommend movies. Uh type YMS, that'll be the first thing there. Also I have a gaming channel.

[1:11:33] Adam Johnston: Adam plays. It's spelt weird. A D-U-M-P-L-A-Z-E. I also make music. Uh my artist name is an unkindness. A N Space U N K I N D N E S S.

[1:11:45] Adam Johnston: Uh I just released an album last year, all by myself. Very, very independent. Um I have a podcast called Sardonicast. We talk about movies. We also talked about Dancer in the Dark on a previous episode that Anthony Fantano joined for. That's one of the first episodes we did.

[1:12:00] Jess McInally: And uh I don't know. What else?

[1:12:04] Adam Johnston: Nothing.

[1:12:04] Jess McInally: Alright. Um, whenever we have guests, I like to give like a personal recommendation of one of their videos.

[1:12:10] Jess McInally: Um, so I think your Kimba video is one of the most well researched video essays to ever exist.

[1:12:17] Adam Johnston: And uh it is a lot to kind of dive into. It is a very long video, so if you're into that, go for that.

[1:12:23] Jess McInally: But if you want to back up like goofed your video, cool cat videos are fantastic.

[1:12:28] Adam Johnston: Yeah, those are older though. Kimba is newer, and I've I've listened to that at least twice.

[1:12:32] Jess McInally: That's really good.

[1:12:32] Adam Johnston: I mean, I remember watching it the first week it came out and being like, I gotta watch that again. I gotta I gotta start that one from the beginning.

[1:12:38] Jess McInally: This is a long road to find out whether or not it was a ripoff.

[1:12:43] Adam Johnston: Yeah, it was necessary.

[1:12:46] Jess McInally: I killed it.

[1:12:47] Adam Johnston: 100%.

[1:12:48] Jess McInally: Um, you know who else killed it? Our wonderful patrons.

[1:12:51] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you for listening.

[1:12:52] Jess McInally: Um please follow us on iTunes Spotify Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. We're on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, and YouTube page musicals with cheese.

[1:13:01] Andrew DeWolf: We have a patron only podcast called Patreon with Cheese, where you get to hear us talk about Gallivant at the moment, but I think we're gonna move on to the tangled animated series after that.

[1:13:09] Jess McInally: Um, musical theater lives at gmail.com. Our title card was created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Go send her some love at Jolene Casco on Instagram.

[1:13:18] Andrew DeWolf: Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. Thank you for doing that.

[1:13:21] Jess McInally: This show is produced by the absolutely wonderful, the incredible, my best friend in the world, Brianna Jones. Thank you, Brie.

[1:13:28] Andrew DeWolf: Our theme song for Brie Views was created by Robin Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off yet for talking about Lars von Trier depressing depression porn.

[1:13:43] Adam Johnston: Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this up?

[1:13:47] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Synectic, New York.

[1:13:50] Adam Johnston: We're all we're all hurtling towards death.

[1:13:54] Andrew DeWolf: If the movie itself didn't depress you.

[1:13:59] Adam Johnston: You put me on the spot, I had to think of something.

[1:14:02] Andrew DeWolf: Wow. Did you guys know that we're all going to be dead someday?

[1:14:05] Adam Johnston: Oh, that earth will be in a black hole.

[1:14:08] Andrew DeWolf: Finally.

[1:14:10] Adam Johnston: Hopefully it's like by execution.

[1:14:12] Andrew DeWolf: Before you're dead.

[1:14:15] Adam Johnston: Before you take your 107th steps.

[1:14:18] Jess McInally: Alright, guys. We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:14:22] Andrew DeWolf: Bye bye.

[1:14:30] Adam Johnston: I've seen it.

[1:14:32] Jess McInally: Oh, there is nothing to see.