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[0:06] Jess Mackinally: Hello, I'm Jess Mackinally.

[0:09] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:10] Jess Mackinally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew introduced to musical theater.

[0:14] Jess Mackinally: And Andrew, how are you doing today?

[0:17] Andrew DeWolf: I am doing pretty, pretty good, you know.

[0:21] Andrew DeWolf: I just got back from solving racism for the, uh, what is it, the fourth time on this show?

[0:26] Jess Mackinally: Um, I mean, did you do it by, uh, dancing, or did you do it by being a fat white woman, or did you do it by going to Uganda and bringing Mormonism? Which way did you do it?

[0:35] Andrew DeWolf: Well, uh, this time I actually adopted a, uh, a little black boy.

[0:42] Andrew DeWolf: Um, now we're a happy family and racism is dead.

[0:47] Andrew DeWolf: Racism is dead in America.

[0:51] Jess Mackinally: This is sarcasm, by the way. This is not a real belief.

[0:56] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no, not at all.

[0:59] Andrew DeWolf: Um, in case, like, I feel like we're mitigating our critique of this musical right up front, um, which is literally just the last ten minutes of it.

[1:09] Jess Mackinally: But this week, by Patreon request of one Mitchell Young, we are talking about Ragtime.

[1:17] Jess Mackinally: Cue the music, Bree.

[1:21] Andrew DeWolf: I see his face.

[1:28] Andrew DeWolf: I hear his heart beat.

[1:35] Andrew DeWolf: I look in those eyes.

[1:42] Andrew DeWolf: Oh wise they see we'll win he is old enough.

[1:53] Andrew DeWolf: I will show him a merry car.

[1:59] Andrew DeWolf: And he will ride on the wheels of a dream.

[2:15] Jess Mackinally: Ragtime is a musical with music by Stephen Flaherty and lyrics by Lynn Ahrens.

[2:21] Jess Mackinally: Um, and a book by the incredible Terrence McNally, may he rest in peace.

[2:25] Jess Mackinally: It was based on Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow.

[2:27] Jess Mackinally: It opened on Broadway in previews on December 26, 1997, followed by the official opening on January 18, 1998.

[2:36] Jess Mackinally: It was the first production in the newly opened Ford Center of the Performing Arts.

[2:41] Jess Mackinally: It closed on January 16th, 2000, after 834 performances and 27 previews.

[2:47] Jess Mackinally: At the Tony Awards, the musical won awards for Best Featured Actress for Audra McDonald, original score, book, and orchestrations.

[2:55] Jess Mackinally: And the plot of Ragtime is based on the novel by E.L. Doctorow.

[2:58] Jess Mackinally: This musical tapestry depicts an African American family, a Jewish immigrant family, and a wealthy suburban WASP family in turn-of-the-century America.

[3:11] Andrew DeWolf: And what is WASP?

[3:13] Jess Mackinally: White Anglo-Saxon Protestant?

[3:16] Andrew DeWolf: That sounds right.

[3:17] Jess Mackinally: I think, yeah.

[3:18] Andrew DeWolf: You don't hear that used very often anymore.

[3:21] Jess Mackinally: I mean, you do, but you don't, if that makes sense.

[3:24] Andrew DeWolf: It's used ironically very often.

[3:26] Jess Mackinally: Alright.

[3:27] Jess Mackinally: What did you think about Ragtime?

[3:31] Jess Mackinally: Because as we mentioned up front, this is a Patreon request.

[3:33] Jess Mackinally: Um, I listened to the album many times before this, but never really dove into the show until now.

[3:39] Jess Mackinally: And there is a lot of pressure on us, because this is a lot of people's favorite musical, to be honest.

[3:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um, are we gonna have the hashtag controversial opinions today?

[3:52] Jess Mackinally: Um, I'm not even sure.

[3:54] Jess Mackinally: I think that we will have to do a little bit of ribbing.

[3:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[4:00] Jess Mackinally: Um, maybe a lot of bit.

[4:02] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe a lot of it.

[4:04] Andrew DeWolf: But I don't know if my problem is with the musical itself, in that like the music is generally pretty decent all the way through.

[4:15] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I mean, a lot of the staging and things, and I watched two different versions of this one, um, and they both looked quite nice.

[4:23] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, it's all decent.

[4:25] Andrew DeWolf: It's just, uh, I mean, you mentioned the ending.

[4:27] Andrew DeWolf: I think that there's some problem elements throughout because of the way they want to handle the subject matter.

[4:34] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[4:35] Jess Mackinally: The ending is kind of where it epitomizes it, and it's like, oh, that's what you were going for.

[4:40] Jess Mackinally: Now let's talk about this separated as from this piece as is, and talk about its influence or inspiration, the book, um, Ragtime.

[4:51] Andrew DeWolf: Which I know nothing of this, so, um, it was written by E.L. Doctorow, and this is a rare production, revolutionary in a way, in my opinion, because Doctorow was very involved in this production.

[5:03] Andrew DeWolf: Um, mostly because he was very unhappy with the way that the film adaptation about ten years beforehand had been handled.

[5:12] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and after comparing the two, um, I can see why.

[5:17] Andrew DeWolf: And he, Doctorow, is very happy with the final version in this musical and how it is.

[5:23] Andrew DeWolf: So while saying, yeah, Terrence McNally's the official book writer, it was kind of musical by committee.

[5:30] Andrew DeWolf: Um, both as they did many, many different productions, as well as just everyone in the room spitball opinions until they got what they got.

[5:40] Andrew DeWolf: So this feels like a musical made to satisfy everyone, therefore it satisfies no one.

[5:45] Jess Mackinally: And I feel it's because of that.

[5:47] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, it definitely satisfies some people.

[5:49] Andrew DeWolf: You said that this is some people's favorite.

[5:51] Jess Mackinally: Exactly.

[5:51] Jess Mackinally: Which I'm trying to figure out what people would like so much about it, because that's eluding me a little bit.

[5:59] Andrew DeWolf: I cannot imagine this being many African American people's favorite musical.

[6:04] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I don't think so, just up front, I mean, when you talk about like racism as a subject, yeah.

[6:11] Andrew DeWolf: I don't want to accuse the show of being racist.

[6:15] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[6:15] Andrew DeWolf: Because I think that's a very extreme, and it obviously has an egalitarian mindset to it.

[6:22] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I don't think it's intentionally trying to be racist.

[6:26] Andrew DeWolf: I just think it's, um, it kind of undersells some aspects of racism in its message.

[6:33] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and sort of pretends it can be solved in a very, um, like individual sort of way.

[6:40] Andrew DeWolf: And I guess we have to get into the story to explain why we would think that.

[6:45] Jess Mackinally: Um, before we do that, really quick, what year do you think the original novel was published in?

[6:51] Jess Mackinally: If you had to like give a general time that you think, oh yeah, that feels like the time.

[6:57] Andrew DeWolf: Cause I had a different opinion, and I'm curious what yours was.

[7:01] Andrew DeWolf: I would say like late 80s.

[7:03] Jess Mackinally: Mid-70s.

[7:05] Andrew DeWolf: Mid-70s, okay.

[7:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like seventy-five.

[7:07] Jess Mackinally: And it was a huge—this was probably very progressive for the 70s.

[7:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[7:13] Jess Mackinally: Um, I just think in the modern context, our framework has changed pretty drastically.

[7:20] Jess Mackinally: Um, let I'm gonna let you describe the plot of this now.

[7:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um, surprisingly, some of the characters that I would consider our lead characters are one of the only characters without names.

[7:34] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so you know, you have a family.

[7:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, go ahead.

[7:38] Jess Mackinally: That's just a thought that hit my head.

[7:40] Jess Mackinally: Um, maybe it's not worth bringing up right now, but all the main white characters are nameless, just father, brother, and all that, but all the lead people of color and immigrants are very specifically named and have like all this history.

[7:55] Andrew DeWolf: Do you think that is an intentional choice?

[7:58] Andrew DeWolf: If it's an intentional choice, it's kind of a bad one because it's basically, it's though that those characters are audience inserts, um, or something like that, which implies that the audience has to be white.

[8:13] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[8:14] Andrew DeWolf: That's a fair point.

[8:15] Andrew DeWolf: I just have no idea what to do with that information and, uh, how to feel about it.

[8:20] Jess Mackinally: There's a lot of things I don't know how to feel about it.

[8:23] Jess Mackinally: It's a very, I think that it's in the rest of the show too.

[8:27] Jess Mackinally: It's a very like subconscious racism, you know?

[8:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and I would not doubt that the white characters are not named because the writers, um, are expecting the audience to relate to them the most.

[8:46] Jess Mackinally: I agree.

[8:47] Jess Mackinally: Um, describe the plot for us, Andrew.

[8:50] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[8:51] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so you have a family, mother, father, um, and they're, um, kid.

[8:57] Andrew DeWolf: And then younger brother, younger brother is the mother's, so he's more of an uncle, sort of, but yeah, younger brother is the mother's younger brother.

[9:06] Andrew DeWolf: If they were trying to put it from the point of view of the kid, and it's like mother, father, uncle, and they didn't do that.

[9:11] Andrew DeWolf: Because honestly, that confused me too, because I initially I thought that it was like the, um, mother's son, but I was like, this doesn't really make sense.

[9:21] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but no, no, it's her younger brother.

[9:24] Andrew DeWolf: So younger brother is uncle, kind of, if you look at it that way.

[9:29] Andrew DeWolf: So there's kind of three different plots.

[9:32] Andrew DeWolf: One of them is following that family.

[9:33] Andrew DeWolf: Um, there's another group of, um, uh, African Americans is probably what they would call them in the show here.

[9:40] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, Colehouse.

[9:42] Andrew DeWolf: I don't, I don't know what the proper terms are anymore.

[9:45] Jess Mackinally: You're trying your best.

[9:46] Andrew DeWolf: I'm trying my best.

[9:47] Andrew DeWolf: I believe, um, black people is the preferred because that makes the most sense.

[9:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so, uh, that's, uh, Colehouse and, uh, Sarah.

[9:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[9:59] Andrew DeWolf: Who are sort of a couple, although not necessarily at the beginning.

[10:04] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I would say that they are the primary couple in the musical theater sense, despite Colehouse not even showing up until most of the way through act one, which is weird.

[10:14] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, but he has a very prominent role once he shows up.

[10:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[10:18] Andrew DeWolf: So, and especially in comparison to the movie where he is like the first co-lead.

[10:24] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[10:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and then there is, uh, one other, um, I think it's a, I believe a Jewish immigrant.

[10:31] Jess Mackinally: Mm-hmm.

[10:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and I'm not entirely sure where from, but I assume somewhere in Europe.

[10:36] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[10:36] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I think they said he Yiddish or Hebrew.

[10:42] Jess Mackinally: So Israel?

[10:43] Andrew DeWolf: That sounds good.

[10:44] Andrew DeWolf: I don't, I'd not.

[10:45] Andrew DeWolf: I'm trying to remember back to the movie.

[10:47] Jess Mackinally: Based on the setting.

[10:49] Andrew DeWolf: Latvia.

[10:50] Andrew DeWolf: It can't be Israel.

[10:51] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[10:52] Andrew DeWolf: So, um, because the time, the time period it can't be, it cannot be Israel.

[10:56] Jess Mackinally: No.

[10:56] Andrew DeWolf: Republic of Latvia.

[10:58] Jess Mackinally: Latvia.

[10:58] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[10:59] Andrew DeWolf: And, um, I am sorry if I'm gonna butcher the name here.

[11:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's, it's, uh, Tateh's good.

[11:05] Jess Mackinally: Tata.

[11:06] Andrew DeWolf: Tata?

[11:06] Andrew DeWolf: That sounds right.

[11:07] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and those are the three, and oh, and he has, uh, a daughter who is not named.

[11:13] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so the three stories kind of intertwine.

[11:17] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but I would say the main driving force story is that of, uh, Colehouse.

[11:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and that's the one I'll probably get into the most here.

[11:26] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Sarah, uh, has a, uh, baby out of wedlock, which of note the time period here is, uh, what, in like 1910s?

[11:36] Jess Mackinally: Um, maybe actually probably 1900s, because it's not, it's like before even World War One was even like a consideration.

[11:46] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[11:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so you know, out of wedlock, uh, and they're, um, you know, black people at this time, it's, it's, that's bad, you know, not a good situation to be in.

[11:58] Andrew DeWolf: And she tries to leave it on the doorstep of this WASP family.

[12:02] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it actually depends which version you're watching as well.

[12:05] Andrew DeWolf: In the Broadway version, uh, the baby is partially buried in a garden.

[12:10] Jess Mackinally: That's fucked up.

[12:12] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, which I feel like they kind of tamed it down a bit for the more modern one where that's left on the doorstep.

[12:19] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, because in the movie it's left on the doorstep as well.

[12:22] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[12:22] Andrew DeWolf: So the Broadway version, which was in '98, '97.

[12:27] Andrew DeWolf: And the revival Broadway version is in 2009.

[12:30] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, so the original version, um, it was buried in a garden, and the mother finds it, um, which is worse.

[12:39] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Uh because that that sort of implies a lot of things. Trying to trying to kill it.

[12:44] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. Uh well kill kill him. Not not good. Not good. Um, but yes, found on the doorstep. We'll go with that. Um, the mother um ends up sort of adopting the child and taking the mother in.

[13:01] Andrew DeWolf: Um the mother was going to get arrested for doing that in the while Sarah was going to get arrested. Mother is that's gonna get confusing.

[13:11] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. Sarah was going to get arrested, so mother takes in both of them and allows them to stay in their house while the father is gone.

[13:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. And notable difference from the movie, which I will be doing a lot. Um, the father is there the whole time and is basically this beta male, like, oh come on, we we don't want this. It's like Don Knotts, it's like, what no, no, no, I'm the man of that.

[13:33] Jess Mackinally: Which uh the thing is the father is kind of the unlikable character throughout the entire show, so you kind of want that moment where he comes back and is like mean.

[13:43] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. Um and also it gives the mother a much more strong will to do the things that she's doing. Which I think she's one of the stronger, you know, characters outside of Cole House than Sarah.

[13:56] Jess Mackinally: Um and then Colehouse, um I think he was like a traveling musician, and then he stopped being he stopped traveling so often, so then he decides he wants to get back with Sarah and he hears about the baby where Sarah's living.

[14:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um he also buys a car uh Model T. Model T around this time. Um just driving around that around.

[14:20] Jess Mackinally: Uh and he starts playing piano at the uh the like white family's uh house.

[14:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Trying to bring Sarah back.

[14:30] Jess Mackinally: Yes. Eventually the father shows back up and it's at one of the times where this is happening, um, and the father is very upset and says some pretty uh yikesy stuff, yeah, you know, like you would expect.

[14:42] Andrew DeWolf: He's um piece of shit.

[14:44] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, he's a racist. You know, you can say it's product of the time or whatever, but obviously the mother wasn't as racist as that. So um, so you know, um, he tries to break all that up, but the mother is uh strong and and says no.

[15:01] Andrew DeWolf: Uh and Sarah comes back down and uh Colehouse and Sarah get back together.

[15:06] Jess Mackinally: While all this is happening, um you have um allusions to uh Emma Goldman starting a strike movement and the younger brother getting involved with that, um, as well as um Tate um and the little girl having to flee from different uh strikes because the uh like police were beating on them and and they were getting harassed by people.

[15:35] Andrew DeWolf: I it was a bad situation, so they get on a train and go somewhere else.

[15:38] Jess Mackinally: I think they go to Boston.

[15:39] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they get out of New York.

[15:41] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. Um at a certain point, um, Cole House is stopped by um some racist firefighters who imp uh are pretending to have a a toll that he has to pay.

[15:57] Andrew DeWolf: They're basically just harassing him because he's black, um, obviously. And so he goes to get the police and they trash his car, which you know, black dump in his car.

[16:07] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, and then they I think they try to push it in the water or something.

[16:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Um yeah, basically they just destroy his car, and he gets very upset and um he wants uh justice or whatever.

[16:18] Jess Mackinally: Can't get it.

[16:19] Andrew DeWolf: I think he Yeah, he can't get it.

[16:21] Jess Mackinally: Sarah decides that the president is in town and she's gonna go talk to him.

[16:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[16:27] Jess Mackinally: And um and because of the um Labor assassination attempts, uh assassination attempt, which of course was done by one of the like labor movement people.

[16:39] Andrew DeWolf: See assassins for more detail.

[16:41] Jess Mackinally: Yes, um, which obviously was not a good move, but because of that, um Sarah trying to talk to the president gets her uh literally murdered by the Secret Service.

[16:50] Andrew DeWolf: Um Cole House um basically gets mad, and that just sets up pretty much all of Act Two, where basically all of Act Two is Cole House goes on a absolute rampage and just starts bombing places.

[17:03] Jess Mackinally: Yep.

[17:03] Andrew DeWolf: And um the white family has to move to Atlantic City.

[17:08] Jess Mackinally: Um the immigrant um family becomes wealthy doing movies.

[17:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and they meet in Atlantic City, I think.

[17:17] Jess Mackinally: They they meet the the mother and they kind of hit it off.

[17:21] Andrew DeWolf: And eventually the father goes back to deal with a hostage situation that Cole House and the younger brother have set up.

[17:27] Jess Mackinally: Um and the father goes in there and he like learns that racism is bad or something.

[17:34] Andrew DeWolf: He he he he like he's like, Oh, racism is actually bad, and then Cole House walks out and dies.

[17:39] Jess Mackinally: Um then the show ends.

[17:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and then the show ends, and the epilogue is just like younger brother goes to Mexico, mother marries the immigrant because father dies.

[17:51] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[17:52] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and uh she keeps uh Sarah and Coleman's son and oh Coalhouse, pardon me.

[17:59] Jess Mackinally: Cole House's son, and Colehouse and Sarah look on from heaven and are like everything's good, racism solved.

[18:09] Andrew DeWolf: Um yeah, that's that's a big issue.

[18:12] Jess Mackinally: Like, there's a good story here. It's just the way they decide to make it resolve is bad.

[18:20] Andrew DeWolf: I would argue that some of the other stuff is bad as well.

[18:24] Jess Mackinally: I think that the framing of the labor movement as almost just bad as a whole because it causes problems.

[18:30] Andrew DeWolf: Um, like what is nothing that the labor movement does in this is portrayed as a good thing.

[18:36] Jess Mackinally: Um it causes the immigrants to get harassed, it kills Sarah.

[18:39] Andrew DeWolf: Uh like, and then and then they're gone.

[18:42] Jess Mackinally: Uh like they they don't even show up again after that.

[18:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um and then, of course, uh Cole House becoming like a a political radical, which I think in his situation is actually relatively justified.

[18:53] Jess Mackinally: Um, but it's framed as like really bad to the point where Booker T. Washington has to come out and be like, you're making all the white people scared.

[19:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[19:03] Jess Mackinally: It's like, alright, well, maybe the white people should be scared because the black people have been scared for quite a long time.

[19:10] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. I feel like that's the I feel like this show views Cole House as a bad apple in the same way that they view the occasional rape racist as a bad apple.

[19:24] Jess Mackinally: Well, yeah, because then the father character, he's kind of like he represents almost the racist attitude.

[19:30] Andrew DeWolf: And I would argue to the point where in the epilogue they kill him, um, and he's that's represents like racism dying.

[19:37] Jess Mackinally: Yes.

[19:37] Andrew DeWolf: Um and it's like it's just I it's not a good portrayal.

[19:42] Jess Mackinally: Um I don't like it.

[19:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah. I think that there's some fun stuff in the story and you know, it's not unredeemable, and I don't blame you if you like it or I'm not trying to say like you enjoy something that's objectively really bad.

[20:00] Jess Mackinally: Like I'm just saying there's some problem stuff in here that I don't like I there is.

[20:07] Andrew DeWolf: And there are some things about the original novel that I do want to bring up.

[20:12] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[20:13] Andrew DeWolf: So um uh Tata eventually does um go through an uh successful worker strike, but you know what? He becomes disillusioned when it seems it's that it changes very little about the workers' lives.

[20:27] Jess Mackinally: Uh yeah um I don't know about what you know about the labor movement of the 1900s, but it actually changed quite a lot about the workers' lives.

[20:37] Andrew DeWolf: Um we would not have a five day work week right now if it was not for that.

[20:41] Jess Mackinally: Uh we would probably be working in sweatshops still yeah it's child labor laws came out of that stuff like the I don't know if you've heard about like um you know a a hangar factory um some things kind of happen with that if you don't know you know they they literally used to lock their workers into buildings, and then when those buildings lit on fire, all of the workers would die.

[21:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:07] Jess Mackinally: Um, so I don't know if we should be disparaging the labor movement as not effective.

[21:14] Andrew DeWolf: Um There's a lot of little things um that bother me about this show.

[21:20] Jess Mackinally: It's like a death by a hundred cuts.

[21:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:26] Jess Mackinally: I mean, okay.

[21:27] Andrew DeWolf: And part of it, I just I feel like the political messaging is normally when we get into that, it's like a minor nitpick.

[21:33] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[21:34] Andrew DeWolf: But it's a very, very major aspect of this show.

[21:37] Jess Mackinally: Like, it's clearly what the show is about.

[21:40] Andrew DeWolf: This show is not about a love story.

[21:42] Jess Mackinally: No.

[21:42] Andrew DeWolf: The show is about politics.

[21:45] Jess Mackinally: A lot about politics.

[21:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and they have a whole song just praising Henry Ford.

[21:51] Jess Mackinally: But just an entire song, just praising Henry Ford.

[21:54] Andrew DeWolf: Henry Ford, uh, who supported like the Nazis in Mussolini and abused his workers, like, horrifically.

[22:02] Jess Mackinally: In the same show where they also highly criticize Emma Goldman.

[22:07] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Emma Goldman, who was in charge of like not in charge of, was a big part of the labor movement.

[22:13] Jess Mackinally: They have an entire song just praising Henry Ford.

[22:16] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's I think a lot of this comes from the way that I describe the show being created.

[22:23] Jess Mackinally: It wasn't a driving force by one mind, the way that I think a lot of shows that work tend to be.

[22:30] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it was very much by committee, so it's like it doesn't know what it wants to say about these things.

[22:37] Jess Mackinally: Despite it all coming from one novel.

[22:40] Andrew DeWolf: There is also a moment where the younger brother and the father speak, and the younger brother says uh the line, like, You've traveled so far and you've learned nothing.

[22:50] Jess Mackinally: Um, like referring to how the father is completely unwilling to look at the struggles of other people.

[22:56] Andrew DeWolf: And so I feel like that almost is supposed to frame like the opposite of what the rest of the show is saying in a positive light.

[23:03] Jess Mackinally: But I feel like it's only able to do that because they already have the father as a representative of the bad person, you know?

[23:11] Andrew DeWolf: So it's like they're not actually it's not a systemic critique there, it's more of one bad athletic the the bad person is getting critiqued, you know, and it's like that's not you can't do that.

[23:24] Jess Mackinally: No.

[23:25] Andrew DeWolf: And the thing is, they go through most of Act One to show you how bad Cole House and Sarah have it, and how rough it is, and how their existence is on trial every single day.

[23:39] Jess Mackinally: And then by the second act, it's like, uh oh, nope, you did uh you did an anarchistic revolution. We don't want that.

[23:46] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not even saying that the show needs to portray Cole House bombing random buildings.

[23:52] Jess Mackinally: And they're not random, actually.

[23:53] Andrew DeWolf: He's bombing firehouses because his the firefighters were were very racist to him.

[23:57] Jess Mackinally: But I'm not even saying that they have to portray that in a positive light.

[24:01] Jess Mackinally: Exactly.

[24:01] Andrew DeWolf: I just would have liked to see I mean it's a f one, it's a fictional story, so you don't even have to have him do that.

[24:08] Andrew DeWolf: Um and two, if you're gonna have him do that, maybe don't have Booker T. Washington come out at the end and scold him for his methods, like in in like a patronizing and and uh like you're you're the reason racism still exists kind of way.

[24:23] Jess Mackinally: But is that a critique of Booker T. Washington or a critique of the fictional character of Cole House?

[24:28] Andrew DeWolf: Or yeah, Colehouse.

[24:29] Jess Mackinally: See, I don't even know.

[24:30] Andrew DeWolf: I one, I don't know enough about Bush Booker T. Washington to say.

[24:33] Jess Mackinally: And two, um, it's not shown in that way.

[24:37] Andrew DeWolf: It yeah, I think you're supposed to see what Washington is saying as the rational point of view.

[24:43] Jess Mackinally: To the point where he convinces Colehouse and Colehouse surrenders himself.

[24:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[24:48] Jess Mackinally: Well, was it him that's convinced him or was it the father?

[24:52] Andrew DeWolf: Well, yeah, and and basically the father can father and him combined convince him that oh violence is never the answer, like we should just talk this out.

[25:00] Jess Mackinally: But it's like I I One, how should he have should could he have talked to the firefighters that destroyed his car for no reason other than the fact that they were horrible racists?

[25:12] Andrew DeWolf: Like, what are you gonna talk to everyone in society when all of society is structured against you?

[25:17] Andrew DeWolf: Like this complete advocacy against any form of revolutionary action in a story, mind you, that takes place before the civil rights movement, uh I mean, I don't really know what else to say on that.

[25:36] Andrew DeWolf: And now we bring all this up because it's frustrating. Cause I think as a play, as a piece of media, uh as a piece of art, this is very successful in everything it tries to do. I think the songs are effective, I think the visual staging is effective. I think the book by Terrence McNally is wonderful. I even think the characters are like relatable and good. Like I like Colehouse as a character, which is why I feel like the ending it really um it stinks a lot. It feels like they're taking away from that. I think that there is a lot going for this, but good lord, the messaging uh uh we didn't even talk about the immigrant thing, 'cause good lord, one, they're disparaging the labor movement, but then they also have a storyline of like a rags to riches thing.

[26:22] Andrew DeWolf: Which Yeah. As long as you're white passing in America, you can achieve great things. Oh, if you just work really hard. Well, who needs a labor movement? Just work hard. Like, look at this guy. He's a success. Okay. This was the thing that bothered me. At least in the musical, they show him struggling a lot. Okay? It's true. It's true. That is at least true. In the movie, like he gets off we open with him doing the silhouette pictures. His wife gets found cheating on him, and she's played by Fran Dresher. She's in there for like one scene then disappears. What? I don't even think we mention a wife aside from the fact that she's dead or to tell people that she's dead.

[27:05] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, I would uh I I don't even know if they mentioned it. I just kind of assumed that she was. But no, apparently she was a cheating person. He's like, he's Mandy Patinkin in the movie. Where even when I watch the musical, I'm like, he gives me Mandy Patinkin vibes. That's why. Okay. And he storms off to America first day off. He's like, I made this flip book. And they're like, hey, we're gonna give you a bunch of money for this. And he's like, oh great. Next time we see him, he's a movie star. Good lord. So they literally do the thing where he shows up in America and he's instantly, instantly American dreamed.

[27:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. He lives the life of the guy the engineer from Miss Saigon. They at least have something in here where um the he's shown as not being instantly successful in America didn't instantly make him a success. Uh they even have a part where Emma Goldman talks to him, and I want to point out I rewatched that scene on the Broadway version because I watched the revival first. And you remember I said in the revival version, they at least have a cool, like a good line where she says work is politics, and then she donates uh money to him to help his child.

[28:12] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. In the Broadway version, he just yells at her and says to go away. Amazing how development has changed on that show.

[28:27] Andrew DeWolf: I how do you think this show handles its figures? It's real life figures. Like Houdini Houdini, I feel like they did fine, because I mean what is there to say about Houdini? He's an entertainer. I mean, I'm sure he's a very interesting person, but they don't like do that much with him. I like that they have the the little plot with the boy, which is a little weird and I'm not sure what they're trying for other than just a joke about Houdini. You know how the little boy is like psychic or can tell the future for some reason? I don't know what that's about, but it's a funny thing to do with Houdini, I guess. I would probably cut it, but it's not bad. I don't see why we need Houdini in the story to be honest.

[29:18] Jess Mackinally: Oh yeah. Does that even ring true to you at all? The only thing that I think she's good for is giving the younger brother a reason to look for something else to like fulfill himself. But you don't even really need that.

[29:32] Andrew DeWolf: No. I I like her song about being the girl in the swing and like the idea that this would be the murder that defines a 20th century despite it being 94 years left to go. Like there's a lot of good lines about it.

[29:45] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. In the film, she's basically the main character.

[29:51] Andrew DeWolf: You're gonna have to like explain how that even she shows up literally twice.

[29:57] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, um, so we open with the her. It wasn't an affair like it was in the musical. It was because a naked statue of her was getting erected somewhere, and then the husband goes and kills like we see all of that. We see like the husband go to killer, she speaks in court and says that oh no, he was he attacked me and all that. And she's a big part of that, especially with like the little brother and he was played by Brad Duriff, who is Chucky in the movie.

[30:26] Andrew DeWolf: Oh.

[30:26] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. He's good. He's very good in the movie.

[30:28] Andrew DeWolf: He's a very underrated actor for one. Um she's like a point of view character, like she runs into Tita and all of them, like she is uh Cole House and her are like co-lead characters in that movie, which is why that movie doesn't work.

[30:45] Andrew DeWolf: I'm already trying to figure out how that would even work, because there's like three different stories already here without having her be one of the leads.

[30:53] Jess Mackinally: Well, she's one of the few people that kind of interacts with everyone.

[30:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but she interacts with everyone like barely.

[31:01] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. Uh all right, whatever. The movie sounds awful.

[31:07] Andrew DeWolf: The movie isn't the worst thing I've ever seen, but um it's not great either. I mean, there are moments in there that I like. Like I like Debbie Allen as Sarah in the movie, because she's given a lot more to do. Where in the musical she has one pretty song then is murdered. She doesn't get barely any lines in all of act all the Sarah is time. Hardly even in it.

[31:31] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[31:32] Andrew DeWolf: Which is why I kind of was like, oh, okay, Debbie Allen's playing Sarah. She's very good. She's performing her ass off in that movie, I will admit. Um, it's tiny, tiny things that I think are interesting but oh a satisfying whole it does not make. Despite it not being a musical, it is, I think a little longer than the uh the new 2009 Broadway version. It's like two hours and forty-five minutes.

[31:56] Jess Mackinally: Jesus, that is long.

[31:58] Andrew DeWolf: It is.

[31:58] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[31:59] Andrew DeWolf: And it's not, it feels like the pacing of love actually, rather than a natural kind of cohesion between the stories. It's just like, alright, we're done there, we're gonna cut to here for a bit, then we're gonna cut to here for a bit. Where at the end of every part of the musical, it feels like that thing we just saw led into the next thing we're seeing very, very seamlessly. I feel like the musical emphasizes the more important aspects of each story.

[32:23] Jess Mackinally: Yes.

[32:23] Andrew DeWolf: To a good extent, which is why I feel like the immigrant story is like barely there, and the coal house story is such a huge aspect of the show. Because those are just the most important parts.

[32:36] Jess Mackinally: I agree.

[32:38] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, but then again, I I like a lot of the songs given to the immigrants. Like, I think they have some of the prettier sounding songs.

[32:47] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[32:47] Andrew DeWolf: It's well, I mean, having good songs and having a large part of the story don't have to intertwine.

[32:53] Jess Mackinally: No, but it's a conflict for me personally.

[32:56] Andrew DeWolf: He is the best song. He's only in it for You know what? No one cares what we have to say. How about we compare our opinions to that of the New York theater critics when this show first came out?

[33:06] Jess Mackinally: It's time for previews.

[33:10] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for previews.

[33:18] Jess Mackinally: Alright, Andrew. What have we got?

[33:19] Andrew DeWolf: What have we got today?

[33:22] Jess Mackinally: Ben Brantley.

[33:27] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, I'm gonna I'm gonna read this in a normal voice because it feels like he might try here.

[33:32] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, he might try.

[33:34] Andrew DeWolf: Let's see what he did. So this is the original production. Uh Ben Brantley of the New York Times said of the original Broadway production. Blessed with beauty, ambition, a smashing wardrobe, and a social conscience, Ragtime would seem to be the kind of musical that brings Broadway audiences to their knees in adoration.

[33:51] Jess Mackinally: Then why does this $10 million show, which opened last night at the new Ford Center for the Performing Arts feel so utterly resistible?

[34:02] Andrew DeWolf: That that's like the most backhanded way to start a review I've ever heard.

[34:07] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, he's basically saying this has everything. Why don't I like it?

[34:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Although I'm I don't know, I'm kind of feeling that. Although I feel like I'm able to put I'm able to tell say why, but I don't know. I feel like Ben Brantley's probably gonna say like something like, I just didn't feel anything for these characters and all that. There's too many people to care about, which I disagree with.

[34:28] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, I don't agree with that.

[34:30] Andrew DeWolf: I disagree with what they're trying to sell me.

[34:33] Jess Mackinally: Okay, keep reading.

[34:35] Andrew DeWolf: Sitting through this heavily publicized adaptation of E. L. Doctorow's 1975 novel about the turn of the century growing pains is like meeting someone on the basis of a promising lonely hearts ad.

[34:50] Jess Mackinally: This is just the same thing he just said.

[34:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. It's not that your date doesn't match the adjectives from the glamorous self-description, but face to face you discover this no chemistry.

[34:58] Jess Mackinally: This is literally the same set the same as the first paragraph.

[35:02] Andrew DeWolf: He's just saying he wanted to talk about a dating profile.

[35:05] Jess Mackinally: He's just saying I wanted to like it, but I didn't.

[35:08] Andrew DeWolf: Um, okay.

[35:09] Jess Mackinally: Despite its bemused ironic tone, what came across most piercingly in Mr. Doctorow's novel was the vertigo of a world whose bottom was falling out of the exciting danger of the shaking of class and sexual mores.

[35:23] Andrew DeWolf: Mores.

[35:24] Jess Mackinally: Mores.

[35:25] Andrew DeWolf: But this sanitized ragtime has no place for sex, even turning Nesbitt from a disturbing erotic presence into a harmless Marilyn Monroe like cartoon.

[35:36] Jess Mackinally: This is his critique?

[35:37] Andrew DeWolf: I I think he's comparing it too much to the movie.

[35:40] Jess Mackinally: So Evelyn Nesbitt in the movie. Um very well acted, um very well portrayed. Um there is a scene where she and Brad Doriff are like having an argument, she just drops her clothes, she's like, Oh no, I'm naked now. Then they start making out, and then lawyers come into the room and are like, alright, we caught you doing adultery, so now you have you ha you're gonna be divorced now, and here's $25,000 in get out. And she just has this entire like debate while still standing there butt ass naked for the entire scene. It feels very male-gazy, very objectified. But it also feels extremely pointless when you consider what the show is actually about.

[36:19] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that's uh But that shows you the kind of character Evelyn Nesbitt was in the film, which was so far the American consciousness version of ragtime at this point.

[36:30] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, but Nesbitt was in the musical for two scenes.

[36:33] Andrew DeWolf: When was she supposed to do it?

[36:35] Jess Mackinally: She was supposed to be like this sexy figure, and Ben Brantley was like, Why you turn her into Marilyn Monroe? Why why you gotta take away the tits?

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: It seems significant that Sigmund Freud, one of the characters in the novel, has been eliminated from the musical.

[36:49] Jess Mackinally: This is the show without a subconscious, a parade that never strays from the well-paved surface of Main Street.

[36:55] Andrew DeWolf: I this is a terrible critique.

[36:57] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[36:57] Andrew DeWolf: I this is an awful critique.

[37:01] Jess Mackinally: We're back to old Ben Brantley.

[37:03] Andrew DeWolf: What your your your issue is that there's no sex in the show? Who gives a shit? Like what That's really not what this story was about.

[37:10] Jess Mackinally: What?

[37:11] Andrew DeWolf: Like, oh like what? Did you want Cole House to be uh like shirtless while he was blowing up all the uh buildings? Like like w like what is what?

[37:23] Jess Mackinally: What about this show is like, man, we need more sex.

[37:26] Andrew DeWolf: I this is intentionally s like if there were sex in it, it would feel out of place. It would have been really good, I think, if Sigmund Freud just showed up with a cigar and was just like, uh, you know, I think that you want to have sex with your mom.

[37:42] Jess Mackinally: Uh yuck yucky.

[37:44] Andrew DeWolf: This adds a lot to the show. This is the this is a I think that he watched it one time, he didn't like it, and he couldn't think of why, so the first thing that came to his head was, well, there was like more nudity and stuff in the movie.

[38:04] Andrew DeWolf: I can't disagree. I think this is an actually very bad review. I don't think he explains himself in any way that's effective. No, I mean, and if as someone who hasn't seen it, like, what would you get out of this? This isn't telling you why you won't like the thing. You're it's just saying, like, oh, there's no sex, so you won't like it. Yeah, it's very middling. Um, like, I feel like they explain his opinion on it, like, I wanted to like it but didn't, but he doesn't give an explanation for why. Well, I mean, his explanation for why is that there's no sex in it. I mean, literally, he has two paragraphs here explaining that he wanted to like it but didn't, and then two paragraphs saying that there was no sex.

[38:46] Jess Mackinally: Yeah. Um Ben, I mean, once again, I don't post the full reviews. I post just segments that I think are like the main points, because I don't really need you to read all the actors and I don't want to go into actual reviews of like I mean, this actor did good, this actor did bad. If you have distilled the main critiques that he has in the show, then I feel like that is what he's saying essentially.

[39:09] Andrew DeWolf: That is basically what he's saying. And except for like, you know, Brian Stokes Mitchell did great, Audrey McDonald was great when she was on screen stage, but barely there. You know. Do we agree with Ben Brantley's review?

[39:19] Jess Mackinally: No.

[39:20] Andrew DeWolf: No, I don't.

[39:22] Jess Mackinally: I have my own reservations too. I gave my own critiques of the show. None of them are that there's not enough sex or that it was like a dating profile.

[39:34] Andrew DeWolf: I don't it was like a dating profile. I didn't want to fuck her. And honestly, I feel like this feels a bit harsh, because I don't think the show is bland.

[39:45] Jess Mackinally: No. He's kind of describing it in a way that makes it sound like it's like very bland. I actually think the show has a lot going for it in like entertainment factor. Let's talk about what this played against at the Tonies that year. Um, what it lost to for best musical, um, which was Julie Tamore's The Lion King, and the Disney.

[40:05] Andrew DeWolf: That's a pretty tough one. That's a pretty tough one to beat, I'm gonna be real. Um, but it's two very different shows that are two very distinctive audiences. And I can see someone coming from Lion King being like, oh, let's check out Ragtime, and just being like the emotional whiplash.

[40:22] Jess Mackinally: I mean, yeah. The Lion King is like extremely like I how would I even say it? It's like milk toast in in like everything it does, whereas this is like edgy and I would say Lion King is revolutionary on a visual level. This is revolutionary on a story level.

[40:42] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Well Yeah. For Broadway. Let me let me add that caveat. I think that this does a lot of things very well. And I think that it if you really like it, I sort of get it. I don't know if I understand it being your very favorite, because if you like shows about like politics like this, have you seen Lame Miz?

[41:01] Jess Mackinally: My God. Lame is feels like a less nuanced version of this, to be honest.

[41:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but it's like better.

[41:10] Jess Mackinally: I don't know if better's the right word. I think it's just different.

[41:14] Andrew DeWolf: It's it's I mean, come on. I mean hang on a second. It's better.

[41:19] Jess Mackinally: I don't like being ambiguous, okay? The thing is.

[41:24] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, we haven't even talked about the composers yet, and we will a little more in the song section, which will be coming, but probably shorter than usual. Um we've only done a couple other musicals by um Flat Flattery.

[41:37] Jess Mackinally: Oh god, I want to get their names wrong because I don't say them very often. Arns and Flattery. Um they did once on this island, um, and Arens didn't I remember that being very good.

[41:47] Andrew DeWolf: It was very, very good. Um Arnes did the lyrics to the s Christmas Carol musical that we both like, the one with Kelsey Grammar done by Alan Mengie.

[41:56] Jess Mackinally: Yes, yeah.

[41:57] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and then they also did Sucicle right after this and Anastasia.

[42:02] Jess Mackinally: I've not seen and I Anastasia the movie?

[42:05] Andrew DeWolf: They did both the movie and they revised it for the stage show.

[42:08] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[42:09] Andrew DeWolf: I've heard some of the songs from that, and they're they're pretty decent.

[42:11] Jess Mackinally: They're very good. I am very I'm very excited to cover Anastasia soon, because I think that musical is pretty good.

[42:17] Andrew DeWolf: And Terrence McNally, who did this, also came back to write the book for Anastasia.

[42:22] Jess Mackinally: I feel like they did a decent job here. I would have liked to hear more ragtime influence in a lot of songs, but I feel like they went for a more traditional musical side.

[42:32] Andrew DeWolf: Musical style, and I mean, I'm not they did it well, you know, like it's it's sounds like a traditional good musical.

[42:39] Jess Mackinally: Mm-hmm.

[42:40] Andrew DeWolf: Um, how about we talk about those songs after this break?

[42:43] Jess Mackinally: Let's do it.

[42:50] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a shill at you. Um Andrew, tell them a little bit about Patreon.

[42:58] Jess Mackinally: Patreon is where you can go if you'd like to donate some money to us um to help us pay everyone that helps us with the show.

[43:07] Andrew DeWolf: Mm-hmm.

[43:08] Jess Mackinally: Including Bree and our editors.

[43:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[43:10] Jess Mackinally: Also, you get extra content. I mean, we put up commentaries once in a while. We put up um the video versions of all of our episodes with you know uncut stuff, so you can see things that we didn't want you to see.

[43:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um which happens quite often.

[43:28] Jess Mackinally: It really does. Thank you, Brie for existing. Um also you get like uh weekly whatever the fucks where me and Liz just do whatever we want.

[43:38] Andrew DeWolf: That's fun.

[43:39] Jess Mackinally: So, yeah, there's a lot of fun stuff. We also have the Patreon meetups, um once a month, which are very fun once a month.

[43:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Terry Needleman, John Donna, Layton Ackles, Danielle Rennox, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Taskir, Fire September, Monica Thoreau, Mina Meneary, Brent Black, Haley Murray, Lithanial, Stacey Coombe, Joseph Evans Green, Carrie Ahern, Mary Lou Choquette, John Van Alles, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie to blam, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Scootin' the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Felice A, Liz Lim, Alison Steller, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, John Van Alz, Vesbian, Ren Cullen, Wait in the Wings, Jacob Stroop, Rafael Martinez, Salaz, Robert Benjamin, Richel T, Janice, Jessica T, Genevieve Hartnett, Cass, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Katie McDonough, Timothy Keyes, Jeffrey Machado, Tenvin Usen, Um, Chris Marcote, Katie Turberg, Tommy Moo Robinson, Kiji Marie Anastasio, Leila, RJ Norija, Sebastian Canino, Cinema Geddon Reviews, Avan Regan, Lizzie Keynes, Charlie B.

[44:47] Andrew DeWolf: Patrick Deering, Julia McClennon, Courtney Schreiner, Joe, Avery Brinson, Mary Lynn Brown, and Mal Cormack.

[44:56] Jess Mackinally: They all give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals of Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks such as patronly commentaries and a bunch of other shit, come join us over at Patreon.

[45:07] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Andrew. Do should we should we should we should we talk about merch?

[45:12] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, we could talk a little bit about merch.

[45:14] Andrew DeWolf: Buy our shit.

[45:15] Jess Mackinally: Just go to musicals with cheese.com and click the merch button.

[45:18] Andrew DeWolf: Ba merch.

[45:19] Jess Mackinally: Bada merch.

[45:21] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, that's it.

[45:22] Jess Mackinally: Alrighty. Let's go.

[45:53] Andrew DeWolf: And there was distant music single and song a submation on patient gone, people call it right time. What do you think of the prologue opening number?

[46:14] Jess Mackinally: Um, so I honestly I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. They do the prologue and it's similar to how they do the epilogue as well, where they like introduce everything and they introduce the setting, but it's in a very like um narrated sort of way. Um I remembering this correctly, the the prologue they have do they have the younger uh kid introduced it, or is that just the epilogue?

[46:36] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's the prologue. He comes out and he's like in 1902.

[46:42] Jess Mackinally: Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was remembering that correctly. I know he does I know for a fact he does the epilogue, I just wasn't entirely certain.

[46:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I get that there's a ton of characters to introduce and that you have to get all the setting and everything done. I feel like there might have been a better way to do it though.

[46:56] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[46:56] Andrew DeWolf: But we also introduced like the celebrities, the Booger T Rott Washingtons, the Houdinis, and all that.

[47:03] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, which I think is fine. I think honestly, I feel like the show might be better without any of the celebrities that they have, like the real historical figures, because it just seems like a weird historical fiction kind of thing going on.

[47:19] Andrew DeWolf: And most of them don't really play a major role. Um, but if you're gonna do it, introduce them at the beginning.

[47:27] Jess Mackinally: I do like what I do like it when we do actually get to like the chorus of it. I think the lyrics are very good when we're not just introducing people where it's like, and there was music playing, catching a nation in its prime, beggar and millionaire, everyone everywhere moving to ragtime. Like it kind of tries to make a justification for why the title is the title.

[47:47] Andrew DeWolf: It does. And I do like the song. And I think a lot of the songs here are very listenable and good.

[47:54] Jess Mackinally: Um, it's just this prologue, they add in all of that dialogue in between everything, which just feels a little unnecessary.

[48:02] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, it's necessary in the same way it's necessary in Great Comet, where you kinda need to it is a lot to process, and you kind of need someone to hold your hand through it all.

[48:14] Jess Mackinally: Maybe my issue is that they have a little kid do it.

[48:17] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe.

[48:18] Jess Mackinally: You just don't tend to like kids.

[48:20] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[48:21] Jess Mackinally: And they have that little kid be like this weird future teller thing, which I I'm not a huge fan of.

[48:26] Andrew DeWolf: That's mostly just a joke for Houdini.

[48:29] Jess Mackinally: It is mostly just a joke for Houdini, but it's also a weird joke because if you're supposed to take it literally, like he can actually tell the future.

[48:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[48:40] Jess Mackinally: Like it's a little bizarre.

[48:44] Andrew DeWolf: I wanted to do. I almost feel like the song um Journey On feels just as much like an opening number as the prologue does.

[48:55] Jess Mackinally: You're depart on a ship from a country like this. Why on earth would you want to believe? Was it something you lost that you suddenly miss? Are you angry or possibly grieving? Do you see in my face what you've lost, sir? Are you moved by the death ship? We say LePoo. Where perhaps you're a man who's inside of his heart. Journey on Journey all.

[49:54] Andrew DeWolf: I was gonna say that as well, because that also introduces if if they could somehow have that introduce Sarah or Colehouse, we'd be that would have been perfect.

[50:04] Jess Mackinally: Yes. Sadly, they weren't able to do that because only two of the characters get to go on a boat.

[50:12] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe you could have him like, you know, wooing her with ragtime music, and he's playing her the song that also happens to be the song that they're singing.

[50:21] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, I think that they could have done that. Um, I still want the prologue music where we kind of introduce the idea of where we are in the location, and then we kind of transfer into Journey On.

[50:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I just they could have cut down a little bit on the prologue.

[50:36] Jess Mackinally: Um yeah, Journey On is a great song.

[50:39] Andrew DeWolf: I really like the uh having one boat going out and another boat coming in kind of thing.

[50:44] Jess Mackinally: I I think that that's fun.

[50:45] Andrew DeWolf: And the immigrant ideals of like, why would they be leaving the idiots? Don't they know they're in America?

[50:51] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[50:54] Andrew DeWolf: Which uh, you know, it's very idealistic.

[50:57] Jess Mackinally: Yes.

[50:57] Andrew DeWolf: A lot of them have that mindset coming to America.

[51:00] Jess Mackinally: Mm-hmm until they get here.

[51:02] Andrew DeWolf: Which, if anything about this musical, I'm glad they kept in how hard his struggle was at first, and how well, I mean, let's in real life, and this is fiction, in real life, he would have shown up and instantly was handed a billion dollars.

[51:16] Jess Mackinally: Um, you know, that's how it works.

[51:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[51:19] Jess Mackinally: Especially, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:21] Andrew DeWolf: Especially if you're coming from Mexico.

[51:23] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, you just instantly you're handed $800 billion.

[51:26] Andrew DeWolf: This is what conservatives actually believe, by the way.

[51:30] Jess Mackinally: To start their life.

[51:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[51:33] Jess Mackinally: Refugees come in and instantly, you know, here you go, 800 million.

[51:37] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-huh.

[51:39] Jess Mackinally: Um you've got a bunch of like introduction songs.

[51:44] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but the next to big song that I think is very, very effective, and probably my favorite song in the show, is Your Daddy's Son by Sarah.

[51:57] Jess Mackinally: Daddy played piano.

[52:00] Andrew DeWolf: Played it very well.

[52:04] Jess Mackinally: Music from those hands could catch you like a spell.

[52:10] Andrew DeWolf: He couldn't make you love him for the tuna stuff.

[52:17] Jess Mackinally: You have the daddies have daddy's song.

[52:31] Andrew DeWolf: You dislike this one because you like Sarah.

[52:34] Jess Mackinally: I like Sarah, of course.

[52:36] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I love Audra McDonald, who did it originally and won a Tony for the role.

[52:40] Jess Mackinally: And in one song, she really has to kind of make you fall in love with her.

[52:45] Andrew DeWolf: Because she really isn't given any dialogue with any other actors.

[52:50] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[52:51] Andrew DeWolf: She sh she's like in an attic for most of it where she doesn't interact with anyone, and then by the time she does come down, she's dead in like two scenes.

[53:02] Jess Mackinally: Um, and it's just such a haunting, very, very haunting melody.

[53:07] Andrew DeWolf: And the lyrics are just like, you know, you ha you have your daddy's hands, so you must be your daddy's son.

[53:13] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[53:13] Andrew DeWolf: I think that it's great, and I feel like it w the show might even be better if she just got a few more numbers.

[53:19] Jess Mackinally: If she was more of a main character than the little boy or the, you know, the mama.

[53:24] Andrew DeWolf: Just get rid of the little boy.

[53:26] Jess Mackinally: Whatever.

[53:27] Andrew DeWolf: Or even the like brother.

[53:28] Jess Mackinally: I mean, we kind of diminish the the the younger brother a lot, but he could be diminished a little more.

[53:35] Andrew DeWolf: I I almost like his character, but I kind of just don't.

[53:40] Jess Mackinally: I feel like he's supposed to be like misguided.

[53:42] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[53:43] Jess Mackinally: And that's what I don't like about his character.

[53:46] Andrew DeWolf: I will see in the movie they they make him basically the moral compass.

[53:52] Jess Mackinally: Really?

[53:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like there's a scene where the father's telling Sarah, um, like there's nothing we can do legally.

[53:59] Jess Mackinally: Uh I just met with my lawyers, and he's like, No, you met with your lawyers, so I said it would be hard.

[54:03] Andrew DeWolf: They didn't say there was nothing they could do.

[54:05] Jess Mackinally: And he has a lot of little moments like that where he's just like, I am the right opinion in this room.

[54:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[54:12] Jess Mackinally: I mean, I would say generally he is the right opinion in in the show, though.

[54:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[54:17] Jess Mackinally: Except for, you know, trying to make a love with Marilyn Monroe.

[54:20] Andrew DeWolf: Well, yeah, but that was before he became the Red Opinion.

[54:23] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[54:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um honestly, was he even that wrong?

[54:28] Jess Mackinally: He was just young and stupid.

[54:32] Andrew DeWolf: But I think Your Your Daddy's son is probably the most effective song, aside from maybe one other that we'll get to later.

[54:41] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[54:41] Andrew DeWolf: Um, probably my favorite female solo from this.

[54:45] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[54:45] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's very good.

[54:47] Jess Mackinally: Is there even I'm trying to think of other female solos that aren't better for mother or back to before?

[54:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's just mother.

[54:53] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[54:54] Andrew DeWolf: She gets everything else.

[54:55] Jess Mackinally: Which is also a very good song.

[54:58] Andrew DeWolf: But then there's like little moments that I just don't love, but we'll talk about that later.

[55:04] Jess Mackinally: Things I forgot about.

[55:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like the baseball scene.

[55:08] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, the baseball scene.

[55:10] Andrew DeWolf: So I kind of get it, but yeah, it's not good.

[55:14] Jess Mackinally: Um, so let's talk about Wheels of a Dream, um, which was um Sarah and Colehouse's big romantic number that basically damns them from that moment first.

[55:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[55:25] Jess Mackinally: We'll go to Star.

[55:36] Andrew DeWolf: Take to heal test to Korean.

[55:44] Jess Mackinally: And we'll travel on from there.

[55:49] Andrew DeWolf: California, who knows who we will wrong.

[55:59] Jess Mackinally: On the wheel.

[56:02] Andrew DeWolf: Savagery.

[56:10] Jess Mackinally: Yes, the wheels are turning for Rust Girl, and the times are starting to roll.

[56:18] Andrew DeWolf: Any man can get where he wants to.

[56:21] Jess Mackinally: If he's got some fire in his soul, we'll see Justice Sarah and plenty of men who will stand up and give us a dooo.

[56:36] Andrew DeWolf: I love this song.

[56:37] Jess Mackinally: The song's great.

[56:38] Andrew DeWolf: Feels a little manipulative.

[56:40] Jess Mackinally: Manipulative like they're trying to get the audience to really care, or manipulative like this is the death nail.

[56:46] Andrew DeWolf: Like, oh they're happy.

[56:48] Jess Mackinally: It's over.

[56:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[56:49] Jess Mackinally: I I this is basically the piano hanging over the heads of these characters.

[56:55] Andrew DeWolf: Where I'm like, everything's a little too happy here.

[56:59] Jess Mackinally: Um, I can understand it.

[57:01] Andrew DeWolf: And yeah, it's like they have this like idealized like picnic, I think, for this song, or am I thinking of something different?

[57:08] Jess Mackinally: Like, it's the idealist, I mean, it may just be because they're in what is this early 1900s, and they're like, Man, our boy's got such a promising future ahead of him, and I'm like, oh no, oh no.

[57:21] Andrew DeWolf: Do he though?

[57:24] Jess Mackinally: And they like make the metaphors about like he's got a beautiful car on an open road of his lifetime with promise and happiness.

[57:33] Andrew DeWolf: Look, it's all a metaphor because that beautiful car on the open road is gonna get dead stopped by uh some firefighters.

[57:42] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[57:43] Andrew DeWolf: You know what?

[57:44] Jess Mackinally: I I'd like to see um um what's his name?

[57:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Mr.

[57:48] Jess Mackinally: Rosewater from Elliot Rosewater come in and be like, God bless the volunteer fire brigade after watching this shit.

[57:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I know he wouldn't be able to.

[57:57] Jess Mackinally: Um boy.

[58:00] Andrew DeWolf: The most powerful scene, um, which I love it to death.

[58:06] Jess Mackinally: It breaks my heart.

[58:07] Andrew DeWolf: Great staging is Till We Reach That Day.

[58:10] Jess Mackinally: I wish it was sung by someone that wasn't just called Sarah's friend.

[58:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I don't I don't understand who that was supposed to be.

[58:18] Jess Mackinally: Sarah's friend.

[58:20] Andrew DeWolf: She doesn't even show up in the whole rest of it.

[58:22] Jess Mackinally: Sarah's friend, Andrew.

[58:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um saying Sarah's understudy.

[58:29] Jess Mackinally: They should have just had Sarah sing it.

[58:31] Andrew DeWolf: From the grave, yeah.

[58:33] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, like why not?

[58:35] Andrew DeWolf: It's theater, you could get away with that.

[58:38] Jess Mackinally: They literally show them in heaven.

[58:41] Andrew DeWolf: In heaven, at in the epilogue.

[58:42] Jess Mackinally: Like, we can't do it at the end of Act One.

[58:47] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[58:48] Jess Mackinally: I would have been fine with it.

[58:49] Andrew DeWolf: I think I think the staging with her like just laid out of on flowers and all that, it's so good and a great way to end an act.

[58:57] Jess Mackinally: Like really devastating way to end an act.

[59:00] Andrew DeWolf: If um, it makes you want to see what's gonna happen next.

[59:05] Jess Mackinally: Oh, and boy, does act two deliver.

[59:07] Andrew DeWolf: No, no.

[59:09] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, I guess.

[59:10] Andrew DeWolf: Is there any really good songs in Act Two?

[59:14] Jess Mackinally: Um Act Two is extremely story-driven, and I feel like the songs suffer for it.

[59:19] Andrew DeWolf: I do love Back to Before, which is the 11 o'clock number, if there is one, where Mother sings about like how nothing will ever go back to what it is, and it's a great moment.

[59:30] Jess Mackinally: Back to Before is a great song.

[59:32] Andrew DeWolf: I wish.

[59:33] Jess Mackinally: I don't know.

[59:34] Andrew DeWolf: I don't really have any negative comments.

[59:36] Jess Mackinally: That's just the last good song in the show.

[59:42] Andrew DeWolf: There was a time my feet were so solidly planted.

[59:48] Jess Mackinally: You'd sell away while I turned my back to the sea.

[59:54] Andrew DeWolf: I was content, a princess asleep and enchanted.

[1:00:01] Jess Mackinally: If I had dreams, then I let you dream them for me.

[1:00:07] Andrew DeWolf: Back in the days when everything seemed so much clearer.

[1:00:13] Jess Mackinally: Women in white who knew what their lives held in store.

[1:00:20] Andrew DeWolf: Where are they now?

[1:00:21] Jess Mackinally: Those women who stared from a mirror.

[1:00:36] Andrew DeWolf: I think that song is what the what the story is supposed to be about.

[1:00:41] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[1:00:41] Andrew DeWolf: Like how you're supposed to feel is supposed to be like, oh, look at all the stuff that's happened.

[1:00:45] Jess Mackinally: We can never really go back, you know?

[1:00:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:00:48] Jess Mackinally: It's supposed to be the careful of things you say.

[1:00:50] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, children were listening, you know, message.

[1:00:51] Jess Mackinally: What did we learn today, kids?

[1:00:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:00:55] Jess Mackinally: Um Then the epilogue shits all over that, doesn't it?

[1:00:59] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I don't think it I don't think the epilogue ruins that message.

[1:01:02] Jess Mackinally: The epilogue just has a different message that's worse.

[1:01:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, yeah.

[1:01:09] Jess Mackinally: I see his face.

[1:01:14] Andrew DeWolf: I hear his heartbeat.

[1:01:18] Jess Mackinally: I love himself.

[1:01:23] Andrew DeWolf: Oh wise they sing.

[1:02:01] Jess Mackinally: Like the that message is still there.

[1:02:03] Andrew DeWolf: It's just really demanding.

[1:02:05] Jess Mackinally: So there's I there's like two messages.

[1:02:07] Andrew DeWolf: One message is you can never go back, and then the other message is how do we go forward?

[1:02:12] Jess Mackinally: And their answer to the how do we go forward message is dog shit.

[1:02:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:02:18] Jess Mackinally: We solved racism because one person adopted a little black boy.

[1:02:23] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:02:23] Jess Mackinally: It's oh god.

[1:02:25] Andrew DeWolf: Can we just talk about the epilogue?

[1:02:26] Jess Mackinally: I feel like we we've like hinted at everything we hate about it, but we've never actually said what happens.

[1:02:32] Andrew DeWolf: The epilogue shows up and it's like, how long it's a long epilogue.

[1:02:35] Jess Mackinally: It's like it's decently long, and they go through what happens to all the characters.

[1:02:38] Andrew DeWolf: The younger brother goes and fights for the uh zapatos, um, or zapatistas, I forget what they call them, um, in Mexico.

[1:02:48] Jess Mackinally: The um the father dies on the the lithu, uh what is it, the lithium lithotania?

[1:02:56] Andrew DeWolf: The the sistership to the Titanic, yeah.

[1:02:59] Jess Mackinally: He dies on that.

[1:03:00] Andrew DeWolf: Um the mother marries the uh immigrant to Theta.

[1:03:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And adopts his daughter. Yeah, and now it's like a big happy multi-uh cultural family, which is good. I'm not saying that's bad, it's just that solve everything. Yeah, and uh what they're trying to say with it is is what I don't like. Um and Colehouse and Sarah look down from heaven and are are are happy that they're their little boys being put in good hands. Um it's very like it's overly happy, um and I don't I don't like it. Um the big takeaway that I feel like you're supposed to get that was like supposed to warm your heart is like the mother's family, but it's almost framed because of what it what precedes it, it's framed as though this is the real solution. Like this is what save the day. This is what Booker T. Washington really wanted, you know, like like that that's kind of like what they're they're framing it as, and I hate that.

[1:04:10] Jess Mackinally: Holy shit. I agree. It's bad. Um Do you have anything to say on this?

[1:04:14] Andrew DeWolf: No, you you said w I I just like listened to you to be honest. Like I think that was a very good description of what happened. Um also I just feel like it kind of wraps up a little too quickly. I know you say it's a very long epilogue, but it kind of it's like, oh right, loose ends, let's get them all up and goodbye, get out.

[1:04:32] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, I mean if I'm being honest, I almost feel like Kolhouse dying is the better ending. Like just he gets gunned down. Leave.

[1:04:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I f I feel like that, and then everyone's like trying to pick up the pieces of their life after that. And it's framed more like that rather than and everyone found that way. I don't like I don't like father dying, um, because father is like the embodiment of bad stuff in the show.

[1:05:05] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[1:05:05] Andrew DeWolf: He's like the he's the he's the past. He's like school racism. Um well that's good in in the movie, I guess. He just gets cucked by his wife who goes off with Mandy Potinkin. Good.

[1:05:17] Jess Mackinally: Uh but having him die kind of gives this like conclusive feeling of like, oh well, you know, the last bad person is now gone. Um and then having the more radical elements of the show, uh Emma Goldman and younger brother both just leave. Like they're just they they both Emma Goldman is said to have done deported, which I think is true, and the younger brother goes to Mexico, so it's like, okay, well, the radical stuff is gone, so now everything's good. You know, it's like Booker T. Washington's life can go back to normal.

[1:05:54] Andrew DeWolf: Who's like Booker T. Washington? I barely know this person. Who is that?

[1:05:58] Jess Mackinally: I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. I should have researched.

[1:06:01] Andrew DeWolf: He's an educator, author, orator, and advisor to several presidents of the United States between eighteen ninety and nineteen fifteen.

[1:06:07] Jess Mackinally: That's good.

[1:06:08] Andrew DeWolf: That's great.

[1:06:10] Jess Mackinally: I I don't know much about that.

[1:06:11] Andrew DeWolf: He was a contemporary black elite.

[1:06:13] Jess Mackinally: That yeah, that's good. Um I feel like he's He also developed the Tuskegee Institute.

[1:06:15] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like he's not very well represented in this show because I honestly watching this you don't even know who he is.

[1:06:25] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[1:06:26] Andrew DeWolf: All all you know is that he condemns any sort any form of uh like violence, political violence, uh, which you know a lot of people do.

[1:06:35] Jess Mackinally: Alright. Alright, I'm I'm done rambling about politics.

[1:06:39] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like I've done that way too much this episode.

[1:06:42] Jess Mackinally: Well, this is the an episode to do it for do it during.

[1:06:46] Andrew DeWolf: But it's not like too many people want to hear two white men's opinion on race relations within ragtime.

[1:06:54] Jess Mackinally: I honestly I don't think the race bracelet relations were even that poorly done.

[1:07:00] Andrew DeWolf: They don't they don't shy away from how horrific it was back then.

[1:07:04] Jess Mackinally: How frank it was. I will say they do shy away in in some aspects in that they don't show it on a wider scale.

[1:07:12] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[1:07:13] Jess Mackinally: It's always interpersonal.

[1:07:14] Andrew DeWolf: They never show it affecting Colehouse on a like systemic sort of like he doesn't have trouble finding work, he doesn't you know it's never anything like that.

[1:07:25] Jess Mackinally: It's always interpersonal um racism, which is a bad representation.

[1:07:31] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[1:07:32] Jess Mackinally: Um and they don't use the N-word that much in the musical, and I only bring that up because they use it a lot in the movie.

[1:07:42] Andrew DeWolf: I'm of two minds on that. Cause on one hand, it's inaccurate to have them not use it that often, I feel, but on the other hand, I don't want to hear people say it.

[1:07:44] Jess Mackinally: I don't want to hear that in a musical.

[1:07:55] Andrew DeWolf: So I think replacing it with lesser language that still portrays the same sentiment is fine with me.

[1:08:04] Jess Mackinally: I agree.

[1:08:05] Andrew DeWolf: And that's kind of one of my biggest issues with parade.

[1:08:09] Jess Mackinally: Um a musical basically about white people, with some African American people involved.

[1:08:16] Andrew DeWolf: Um they use the N-word a lot in that musical, the original version.

[1:08:20] Jess Mackinally: And in more recent versions, they got rid of that 'cause that was a bad bad idea.

[1:08:24] Andrew DeWolf: And I think maybe you should keep going that direction for things like that.

[1:08:30] Jess Mackinally: It's just unless you have a really good message, you shouldn't do that.

[1:08:39] Andrew DeWolf: And I think this show thinks it has a really really good message, but I feel like if you look even a little bit deeper, it doesn't really.

[1:08:49] Jess Mackinally: And that's the whole that's everything I had to say this episode.

[1:08:52] Andrew DeWolf: So there you go. Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on ragtime and your cheese rating?

[1:08:57] Andrew DeWolf: Oh man, so ragtime, it's like um it's like a dating profile that looks really good, but then when you go to s like on the date, it you just you you don't get along.

[1:09:09] Jess Mackinally: Fuck you.

[1:09:13] Andrew DeWolf: You didn't catch that.

[1:09:14] Jess Mackinally: You didn't catch it.

[1:09:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oh man.

[1:09:17] Jess Mackinally: I was too busy looking up my cheese rating, and then I put together the words coming out of your mouth.

[1:09:27] Andrew DeWolf: I hate you so much sometimes.

[1:09:28] Jess Mackinally: Okay, no.

[1:09:29] Andrew DeWolf: I think ragtime is entertaining and has a lot going for it.

[1:09:33] Jess Mackinally: I am just a big old nitpicker who has a You just did the wall review thing.

[1:09:39] Andrew DeWolf: I did.

[1:09:40] Jess Mackinally: I literally just did it.

[1:09:42] Andrew DeWolf: You spent an hour and 11 minutes shitting on this thing, and then you're like, oh, pretty good.

[1:09:47] Jess Mackinally: You know, it had some interesting songs and some cool ideas.

[1:09:50] Andrew DeWolf: It's in this case though, it's true.

[1:09:53] Jess Mackinally: I'm gonna say it.

[1:09:55] Andrew DeWolf: I a lot of the things that I'm talking about, no one is gonna give a shit.

[1:09:58] Jess Mackinally: Right.

[1:09:59] Andrew DeWolf: So like a lot of the stuff that I'm saying is like I'm thinking about it more than I probably should.

[1:10:09] Jess Mackinally: I don't know.

[1:10:10] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not trying to say I'm a big boy smart brain, because I had critiques. Other people have critiques too.

[1:10:16] Jess Mackinally: Yeah, it's some people say it's like a date and they just don't work well in person.

[1:10:20] Andrew DeWolf: It was fine.

[1:10:21] Jess Mackinally: It was fine.

[1:10:23] Andrew DeWolf: Ragtime.

[1:10:24] Jess Mackinally: If it's your favorite though, you maybe maybe watch it a little more critically.

[1:10:29] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[1:10:31] Jess Mackinally: What's your cheese rating?

[1:10:33] Andrew DeWolf: Oh good lord. I Hmm. I don't actually know what I want to give it for a cheese rating. Uh can I research a little bit and then come back?

[1:10:45] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[1:10:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um I will go. Ragtime is a musical I appreciate more than I love. If that makes sense. Like there are songs in here that I love a a lot. And I even texted Andrew when I was like 75% done with it. Um that I think I love this. And then that ending happened and it was like, um, should I go with the vi the horrible description I was gonna Yeah, I'm not gonna do the horrible thing I was gonna say. Um but it's like if you were getting something that w felt really good and then someone just dug their nails into you right when you were about to, you know, feel really good. And you don't want that.

[1:11:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um so the only cheese rating I can give it is a Philly cheesesteak from the ragtime restaurant just outside of Washington DC.

[1:11:34] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[1:11:35] Andrew DeWolf: I'm gonna give it a um I'm gonna give it like a cheese platter. Um but it's got a lot of different types of cheeses, but they're all kind of uh lackluster.

[1:11:48] Jess Mackinally: And that's that's kind of my my thought.

[1:11:50] Andrew DeWolf: So it's like a bunch of like mediocre cheeses that you bought at the supermarket and you put them on a platter.

[1:11:55] Jess Mackinally: But there's a couple really good ones on there, but you kinda gotta be a little bit more than a few.

[1:11:58] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, none of them really taste bad it's just once you've eaten the whole platter you're like wait diarrhea could have eaten something better um alright that's a that's a good one andrew um all right I forgot how we end the show um you know who definitely could have done better not our patrons are wonderful patrons they can do better than us thank you for listening please follow us on iTunes Spotify Stitcher at musicals for cheese our Twitter is at cheesy musicals our Patreon is musicals for cheese Instagram musicals for cheese YouTube page musicals for cheese we have a patron only podcast Patreon with cheese our emails musical theater lives at gmail.com our title card is created by the amazing Jolene Casco go send her some love at Jolene Casco our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio this show is produced by the amazing the wonderful we miss you so much Brianna Jones our theme songs were created by Robin Nash of IOU Music UK thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off yet um actually Andrew we do have a little bit extra at the end of this episode I'm sorry to say this we've been having a contest on our Twitter.

[1:13:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oh Lord what's going on in our Twitter.

[1:13:18] Jess Mackinally: Well we're within the last two weeks anyone that posted a new or a a brand new review on our on our um iTunes or whatever it's called Apple Podcasts um gets put into a raffle to, you know, get a twenty five dollar gift card to Amazon.com.

[1:13:35] Andrew DeWolf: Give daddy bezos some money.

[1:13:38] Jess Mackinally: Yeah.

[1:13:38] Andrew DeWolf: Daddy Bezos.

[1:13:40] Jess Mackinally: So I need you to pick a number between one, two, three, and four.

[1:13:48] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, one and four.

[1:13:50] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[1:13:50] Andrew DeWolf: Well, let me think really carefully. So this is whole numbers only, or can I use decimals?

[1:13:56] Jess Mackinally: You cannot use decimals.

[1:13:57] Andrew DeWolf: Whole numbers only.

[1:13:58] Jess Mackinally: And I can pick one and four as well.

[1:14:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[1:14:01] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[1:14:02] Andrew DeWolf: Hmm. I'm gonna pick three.

[1:14:04] Jess Mackinally: Okay.

[1:14:06] Andrew DeWolf: So, this episode if you're listening right now, the one with an iTunes name of AJ SKI 35 that had the review titled Nothing But Good Things. You get a free $25 gift card to Amazon. Just DM me on the Cheesy Musicals Twitter, and we'll hook you up there.

[1:14:28] Jess Mackinally: Be sure to be listening. Because you know what? In the next four weeks, if you leave a review, you will also get your name put into a raffle. So those who already left a review, you're still there, but you can add a bunch of new names onto it. And the next time we record, I will be doing that. So not next week, but the week after.

[1:14:48] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[1:14:49] Jess Mackinally: Alright, guys.

[1:14:50] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[1:14:51] Jess Mackinally: You gotta leave your reviews. Um, Andrew, is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this shig all up?

[1:14:58] Andrew DeWolf: I love you all.

[1:15:00] Jess Mackinally: Alright.

[1:15:01] Andrew DeWolf: That was very sincere.

[1:15:02] Jess Mackinally: I did not expect that.

[1:15:05] Andrew DeWolf: Man, alright.

[1:15:06] Jess Mackinally: I don't know what to say.

[1:15:06] Andrew DeWolf: I'm at a loss for words here.

[1:15:09] Jess Mackinally: I guess I gotta go blow up a library now.

[1:15:12] Andrew DeWolf: Um you don't have to, but I blew up a library.

[1:15:17] Jess Mackinally: Andrew, this is why white people hate you.

[1:15:20] Andrew DeWolf: I know.

[1:15:21] Jess Mackinally: I know.

[1:15:23] Andrew DeWolf: We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.