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[0:06] Jess McNally: Hello, I'm Jess McNally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:10] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones.

[0:11] Jess McNally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[0:16] Jess McNally: And he's back, guys. We're so happy, but we have no time to handle that, because today's our super special Thanksgiving episode.

[0:22] Jess McNally: And you know what I'm thankful for? I'm thankful for our very special returning guest.

[0:26] Ethan: Hi everyone! It's Ethan from Sideways!

[0:29] Ethan: Hi!

[0:30] Jess McNally: Oh yes. This is a good returning episode.

[0:32] Ethan: It's gonna be fun.

[0:33] Ethan: It's gonna be good when I could feel it. This it's a good one to come back on.

[0:36] Jess McNally: It is, and uh, it's our Thanksgiving episode. Do you know how this ties into Thanksgiving?

[0:41] Ethan: Um, well, um Colonialism.

[0:43] Jess McNally: Yeah, colonialism.

[0:45] Jess McNally: Um, all right, Andrew, what are we talking about today?

[0:49] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, Tarzan.

[0:53] Jess McNally: Key to the music, Brie!

[0:55] ♪ Musical number: "Son of Man" — performed by Phil Collins ♪

[1:35] Andrew DeWolf: So Tarzan is a stage musical with music by Phil Collins and lyrics by Phil Collins, and a book by David Henry Huang, um, who also did the book for M. Butterfly.

[1:44] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it is based on the Tarzan animated film from Disney Animation Studios in 1999.

[1:49] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it began previews on Broadway March 24th, 2006, and officially opened at the Richard Rogers Theater on May 10th, 2006.

[1:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um, the plot of the musical is washed up on the shores of West Africa, an infant boy is taken and raised by gorillas who name him Tarzan.

[2:03] Andrew DeWolf: Apart from striving for acceptance from his ape father, Tarzan's life is mostly monkey business until a human expedition treks into his tribe's territory and he encounters creatures like himself for the first time.

[2:15] Andrew DeWolf: Tarzan struggles to navigate a jungle thick with emotion as he discovers his animal upbringing clashing with his human instincts.

[2:23] Ethan: Wow, they wrote a full novel there.

[2:25] Jess McNally: They might as well have read the book, shouldn't I?

[2:29] Andrew DeWolf: That's what they put in their playbill.

[2:30] Jess McNally: All of those are right from the playbill every time I do that.

[2:34] Andrew DeWolf: They really put all of that in the playbill.

[2:36] Ethan: Oh, yeah. I didn't trust people to understand this one.

[2:38] Jess McNally: Um, they didn't trust these strangers like me. Um, but Ethan.

[2:42] Ethan: Yes.

[2:42] Jess McNally: I think you have the most tumultuous history with Tarzan, dare I say.

[2:47] Ethan: Oh, I do, I do.

[2:49] Ethan: I've seen this video.

[2:51] Ethan: Should I go? Okay, so I have a video on my channel where so like I'm really, really obsessed with the Disney Renaissance and like Howard Ashman and all that kind of stuff.

[3:00] Ethan: All those wonderful movies. I was raised with them, I love them.

[3:01] Ethan: I love like breaking them down and trying to talk about them from new angles and just looking at like what makes them tick, how they worked and all that.

[3:07] Ethan: And Tarzan is widely considered to be the last film in the Disney Renaissance.

[3:12] Ethan: After that, it was like Lilo and Stitch and Emperor's New Groove, and they sort of and like Brother Bear, which like seven people saw.

[3:21] Ethan: But Tarzan's really considered to be like the last Disney Renaissance film, and so that makes it like it's interesting to look at it in terms of like a transitional film, like what it was doing.

[3:30] Ethan: And one of the things that, like, in trying to look at the film and see what it was doing that really bothered me was that like none of the characters really sing.

[3:37] Ethan: And so I made a film being like, I really like or I made a video, sorry, saying like I really like the film.

[3:37] Ethan: I really like the music, I really like the animation, I like the story.

[3:45] Ethan: Like, I love everything about this film. There's this one minor thing that it does, though, and it feels like it kind of messes it up, and the whole internet was just like, How could you say that about Phil Collins?

[3:55] Ethan: You are going to hell. It was just, oh my god, it was just pitchforks everywhere.

[3:59] Ethan: It was like, I really do like the last five minutes of that video is literally me just like staring at my computer screen at four o'clock in the morning, going, I like this movie, I like the music, I think it's good.

[4:08] Ethan: There's just one little thing that I think is kind of off with it.

[4:10] Ethan: And uh, so yeah, this is this is really interesting looking at it in like genuine musical form.

[4:17] Ethan: They fixed it.

[4:17] Jess McNally: I mean, yeah, yeah.

[4:18] Ethan: Ethan, as far as we're concerned, Disney heard your complaints five years before you made the complaints and fixed it.

[4:24] Jess McNally: They fixed it.

[4:25] Ethan: They put it on stage. It's interesting.

[4:27] Ethan: It's really genuinely interesting to see it kind of like play out like this.

[4:30] Ethan: I think there are times where it works, and then there are other times where the rest of the musical happens, and that's fine.

[4:37] Ethan: This just this musical screams of mid-Eisner era Broadway Disney, meaning he was not willing to put any money and effort into it.

[4:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[4:47] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like I kind of feel like this could have been really good if they had just allowed it to have a budget.

[4:53] Ethan: I don't think so.

[4:54] Ethan: I feel like the Tarzan story just doesn't work if you do the Disney one on stage.

[4:58] Ethan: Because there's like as I'm watching it, there's a lot of things that work very well if it's animated and it feels very energetic.

[5:05] Ethan: Then as soon as you do it with real human beings acting it out, it feels creepy.

[5:09] Ethan: Like Tarzan grabbing Jane the way he does, like in animation, it's funny and cute and stuff, but on in real life, it's like, oh no, oh no.

[5:18] Jess McNally: Well, like what if the what if the oh no is a good feeling in the dress?

[5:18] Ethan: What if?

[5:23] Ethan: What if the word for awkward?

[5:25] Ethan: Yeah, what if what if the awkwardness is kind of selling me on it, okay?

[5:28] Jess McNally: It w what? Are you are you like a succession fan where it's like, man, seeing bad people do bad things makes me feel good?

[5:34] Ethan: Yeah, I'm just- I mean, I'm just kind of like Tarzan is just acting like a weirdo on stage, and I'm kinda here for it, you know.

[5:40] Ethan: Well, there like when I when I was like walking into this, I was like, there's there's like all of this 3D CGI mapped onto like 2D CGI, and there's like surfing down the vines, and I thought it was really cool.

[5:51] Ethan: And I was like, how the hell are you gonna even remotely try to translate that on the stage because you can't actually just it just doesn't happen.

[5:57] Ethan: Tarzan's just like a dude who like rolls around a little bit.

[6:00] Andrew DeWolf: I heard they tried to do it, but the actors got too many splinters.

[6:04] Ethan: No, I was thinking like what are you gonna like dress up as well?

[6:07] Ethan: I already made I made that joke earlier, but he was like, are you gonna like dress up a skateboard?

[6:12] Ethan: You're gonna drag somebody across the stage?

[6:13] Ethan: Like, how is this gonna work? It just it just doesn't happen like at all.

[6:16] Ethan: My favorite part is Tarzan is always attached to the rig.

[6:20] Ethan: No matter what, he is always attached to the vine swinging rig, having a conversation that's it is distracting.

[6:26] Ethan: It's wonderfully awkward.

[6:28] Ethan: You have this you have this actor on stage who cycles between acting like a normal person who sings and acting like a uh like an ape man, like who just doesn't understand how anything works.

[6:39] Ethan: It's so weird.

[6:40] Ethan: And it's so weird because it just depending on the scene is how they act.

[6:44] Ethan: Like we it's just back and forth.

[6:45] Ethan: And he's always rigged up to something, and it's it's so awkward.

[6:49] Ethan: And there's no set, it's just green.

[6:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh there's just green.

[6:53] Ethan: They're relying a lot on lighting to try to do it.

[6:55] Ethan: And the lighting is very cool, I will say it is very impressive.

[6:59] Ethan: There's like nothing.

[7:00] Ethan: There's just like a so often you're just like literally looking at an empty stage that's lit really well.

[7:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and and I think it's I think it's really awkward and it's kind of kind of nice in its own way.

[7:10] Ethan: I kind of appreciate it.

[7:11] Jess McNally: You appreciated like the weird kind of like minimalist style that looks like a school play.

[7:17] Ethan: It's like, what are they doing? How is this on stage?

[7:20] Ethan: How is this a Disney product?

[7:22] Jess McNally: They were thinking they were Julie Taymor.

[7:24] Ethan: They really thought they had another Lion King on their hands where they were just being brave and theatrical.

[7:28] Jess McNally: And you wanna you want to talk about brave choices that they should have made and they didn't?

[7:32] Ethan: Yeah.

[7:33] Ethan: Clayton still doesn't have a song.

[7:35] ANDREW RETURNS: That was a brave choice.

[7:37] Ethan: That's very true.

[7:38] Jess McNally: Do you think Phil Collins just wasn't up for it?

[7:40] ANDREW RETURNS: Phil Collins, he's too nice of a guy. He can't write a mean song.

[7:43] Ethan: I wanna know how to shoot these strangers, but like that would be really interesting to try and work out.

[7:49] ANDREW RETURNS: Like, how would a villain song from him sound like?

[7:52] Ethan: They can't do it. He can't write a mean sounding song.

[7:55] ANDREW RETURNS: Have you ever heard of a Phil Collins song that sounds like mean in any way?

[7:59] Ethan: I'm trying to think of one and I can't.

[8:01] ANDREW RETURNS: I remember what, what's that one that everyone's plays the drum part to?

[8:07] Ethan: That sounds a little scary.

[8:09] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, in the air tonight tonight.

[8:10] Ethan: That could be a little spooky.

[8:12] ANDREW RETURNS: Like I could see a villain song. That sounds a little bit like, uh, be prepared from uh Lion King if you think really hard about it.

[8:18] Ethan: Uh, I disagree. I don't think that's a scary sounding song.

[8:21] ANDREW RETURNS: I don't know if it's menacing enough.

[8:22] Ethan: No, it's really not. But that's the closest he's gotten.

[8:25] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's about as close as a few. Everything else is like pop hits and like they're really upbeat, and uh he just didn't have it in him, and they added more songs for this, and they still were just like Clayton doesn't get to sing.

[8:37] Ethan: That was such a weird choice. I'm like confused as to why they chose to put the new songs in where they did and who they gave them to.

[8:44] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, I'm also confused as to why Clayton was a Southern American when everyone else was British.

[8:50] Ethan: Because it was entertaining to watch.

[8:52] ANDREW RETURNS: That was the one good change. I will say he Clayton is probably my favorite character in this version where he was like really a nothing in the stage show.

[9:01] Ethan: He's like a creepy, like sex pervert in this one.

[9:04] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, and like I love Clayton in this. And I was I was telling Jess about how great Clayton is. Um and he asked me why, and I said, Well, he has a southern accent now.

[9:15] Ethan: And that was it. That's the only thing they did.

[9:17] ANDREW RETURNS: That's it. That's his only personality trait.

[9:18] Ethan: Well no, he goes through like Jane's underwear and stuff, and is like really manipulative in a way to do that.

[9:25] ANDREW RETURNS: Tarzan probably did that too, but I mean he I love how they like avoided the entire final conflict with Clayton, where it's just like his own men apprehend him, and then that's that's kind of like it.

[9:34] Ethan: They wouldn't figure out a way to hang him on stage. That'd take too much work.

[9:39] ANDREW RETURNS: We'd have to build a prop. Just say, no, we're better than him. And then leave. He's gone.

[9:46] Ethan: We're gonna have a strong discussion about this.

[9:49] ANDREW RETURNS: He shot a gorilla. You're going to prison.

[9:51] Ethan: Yeah, you're going to gorilla jail now, bud.

[9:53] ANDREW RETURNS: You're going to gorilla jail.

[9:55] Ethan: Oh, then they just put him in gorilla jail, and they're like, the gorillas will take care of him.

[10:01] ANDREW RETURNS: Gorilla Justice.

[10:02] Ethan: Yeah, they would have had to make a prop for Gorilla Jail though, so yes.

[10:06] ANDREW RETURNS: Um, so Clayton was the good change. What do you guys think about the removal?

[10:10] Ethan: This is Tantor erasure. There's no elephants.

[10:13] ANDREW RETURNS: I'm so glad you brought that up. I got to like the fourth number where I was like, what's wrong? What's missing here? And I was like, where the fuck is my elephant?

[10:20] Ethan: Like, it's gone. Like, uh, is this water sanitary? It looks questionable to me.

[10:25] ANDREW RETURNS: Was uh, was like my slogan in life for a good ten years, way longer than it should have been.

[10:30] Ethan: Okay. Where is he and why didn't it happen?

[10:32] ANDREW RETURNS: It would think it was a good change, because honestly, I'm a Turk stan. Um like that, huh? It's gonna be like that.

[10:39] Ethan: You get rid of, you'd get rid of what's, what's his name?

[10:42] ANDREW RETURNS: Uh, the elephant one.

[10:43] Ethan: Tantor.

[10:44] ANDREW RETURNS: Tantor. Say the name.

[10:46] Ethan: Don't you? You get rid of, you get rid of Tantor, and then it's all, it's all Turk all the time. And I'm totally into it.

[10:53] ANDREW RETURNS: What do you, they changed Turk's gender?

[10:55] Ethan: Um, once again, a strong female character is replaced by a man.

[10:58] ANDREW RETURNS: See, I forgot what gender Turk was, so you know.

[11:02] Ethan: We're f I'm fine with it.

[11:03] ANDREW RETURNS: It was Rosie O'Donnell in the movie.

[11:05] Ethan: Yeah, yeah.

[11:06] ANDREW RETURNS: That's true.

[11:07] Ethan: That is, that is true. You're right about it. It was a weird choice.

[11:09] ANDREW RETURNS: And I it, it was a choice, and then they made him like super poetic in this.

[11:15] Ethan: They made everyone really poetic. It feels like that's just kind of this writer's thing where he's like, everyone's gonna say a lot of poetry.

[11:22] ANDREW RETURNS: I was I was really confused at the one scene because they're talking about like pendulation.

[11:26] Ethan: Yes.

[11:27] ANDREW RETURNS: I'm like, bro, this is for kids. What are you just called swinging, you know?

[11:31] Ethan: This one's not, it's not for kids.

[11:32] ANDREW RETURNS: It's weird adult.

[11:34] Ethan: Yeah. This is the adult Tarzan.

[11:35] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah. I kind of enjoyed it, you know.

[11:38] Ethan: Tarzan is a weirdo, like sex man like uh Clayton is going through Jane's underwear.

[11:45] ANDREW RETURNS: Like Jane is like really into Tarzan, and like the professor is there for it.

[11:49] Ethan: Yeah.

[11:50] ANDREW RETURNS: The professor is like, I would watch that.

[11:52] Ethan: He's just enabling the whole show.

[11:55] ANDREW RETURNS: My daughter wants to marry a literal feral man. Doing the family proud, I see.

[12:04] Ethan: It's in like everyone is speaking in like poetry, and there's nothing on stage. No one cracks a joke. There's not a single pick from the audience.

[12:12] ANDREW RETURNS: That was that was the thing about like no Tantor, because I thought Tantor was funny as hell. And yeah, you know, you cut the funny character and you add no jokes in like like one of the one of the things that happens in this show, and I don't know if it was like the recording that we watched, or if it's just like how it is, there's a baby crying in the opening.

[12:29] Ethan: Yeah.

[12:30] ANDREW RETURNS: I'm pretty sure that was in the audience.

[12:33] Ethan: Just like, okay, does somebody need to calm down their kid, or is this like a part of the show?

[12:36] ANDREW RETURNS: But after that, the audience was just silent, just dead silent for the longest fucking time.

[12:42] Ethan: I think it was Baby Tarzan.

[12:43] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, no, no, that's what I figured too, but it was like, is there a baby crying?

[12:46] Ethan: Isn't that the way? There was someone at the beginning of the recording that we watched though, when it was still dark, someone, and it wasn't baby Tarzan. It was like a little kid said, I'm scared.

[12:58] Ethan: It could have been a grown woman, it could have been a small child. Either way, some of them are scared. Like, wow, they're really committed to the bit. This is a honestly, this is a great adaptation. I really love what they did with it. They made some real changes, and I'm I liked it.

[13:16] ANDREW RETURNS: Are you shitting me? Are you getting legit feelings here? Or I don't even know. Wow. It's such a bizarre it was such a bizarre experience to watch. It's just so like I don't want to be like just like mean for the sake of being mean, but it's just so empty. Like, there's so much of nothing that happens that it's really difficult to like get invested into it. Even when you're watching it, like, all right, I'm really into this, I want to know what happens, you know. There's only been one show that I saw with more nothing, and it was all of us were here for it, and it was Prince of Egypt, the stage show.

[13:50] Ethan: I didn't want to say it. Um, it's kind of similar vibes. It's a similar vibe, similar kind of set, but yeah. They could have probably gone with some projection in the back of this one.

[14:04] Jess McNally: Now Michael Eisner wasn't the only one to write that check.

[14:06] Ethan: Yeah, I mean, that's true. He literally was like, here, you can have the rights, but the budget is zero dollars. Make me another Lion King. Whatever you have laying around.

[14:18] ANDREW RETURNS: They had a wicker basket, and that was their only problem. Well, there's that one part, like not just when like Jane gets introduced, but there's another part where Tarzan's fighting the Jaguar Leopard, the cat thing. And there's all these like cool animal costumes. There's like a big butterfly, and it's like there's like aerialists and stuff, and it looks really cool. But the and it's like probably one of the most visual like elements of the show that I thought was like really, really interesting. But the entire time I'm watching it, it's just like it feels like these are all the spare costumes from the Lion King set. They borrowed them for the evening.

[14:43] Ethan: It's just like it it's very Lion King. That's not bad, but you're just using it at this one part, and then you're kind of moving on. It felt really weird.

[14:57] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, I'm trying to look at where this fits in the Disney theatrical bubble. Okay. So this is actually a pretty interesting thing that now that I'm actually looking at the list. So this was the first sole adaptation of a Disney animated film on stage to come to Broadway since The Lion King. This was what there was the Hunchback of Notre Dame, which was in Berlin. That don't count, because that was never made to America. And then there was the Mary Pop. And then there was Mary Poppins, but that was a Cameron Macintosh production that Disney let them use the songs for. So that doesn't count either. So this is their follow-up to The Lion King, if you think really hard about it.

[15:35] Ethan: So tough. And it doesn't work. It's bad. No, it's it's it's it's it's there's there's I I just every single number that we that that like you go through, I just have more questions. Like every single time something else happens, I'm like, why are we doing it like this? Why is it happening like this? And like the entire time I'm watching this, I'm having that moment in the back of my head where like, okay, what if you're the stupid one? What if everyone likes this and you're the idiot and you can't figure out what makes this work, and I just I couldn't figure it out. I mean, there's no winning here. I think it's just it's bad, but there's a couple things I like.

[16:06] Jess McNally: Um, is there anything that you guys liked?

[16:09] Ethan: I really liked um specifically you'll be in my heart.

[16:13] ANDREW RETURNS: I really like to say the same thing. I like that Kala was singing, and then at the very end of the show when Colin Tarzan have the duet. That was those those two moments where I was like, it's really cool.

[16:23] Ethan: That's fucking exactly what I was saying in my fucking video.

[16:25] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, proved your point.

[16:27] Ethan: Prove my point. Um, it's good, but I feel like this also disproves your point.

[16:33] ANDREW RETURNS: Um, I gotta I gotta throw it out there. Once Jane comes in and Tarzan is is wildly flip-flopping between uh flawlessly singing and unable to talk. It is like but it works so well in which I'm gonna do it. Hold on, hold on to that.

[16:45] Ethan: Hold on to that, because I I have a counter-argument, good sir. Do you want to get to it now, or do you want to go through the numbers?

[16:51] ANDREW RETURNS: No, throw it, throw it right now.

[16:52] Ethan: So here's the thing there's this really interesting like issue with like everything about making Tarzan just feels like you're working uphill both ways, right? Yeah, not just in making a film, but in also making um a stage musical. One of the things that the powers that be, the creators said when they didn't want Tarzan to sing was it makes sense, right? Tarzan's like he's like sort of he's feral, he's kind of non-verbal. Having him just like break out into song and then swing in a vine would kind of have like a weird vibe. He's not a cartoon teacup, right? Where like there's like a weird suspension of disbelief thing happening. But in that way, this show is kind of bilingual, right? On one half, he's talking to the apes, and he's fully articulate, he's like totally speaks English, and then on the other hand, he's talking to Jan and he's like, ugh ug me Tarzan, right? Like he he really he he doesn't have any kind of grammar or capabilities, and then he becomes like a feral human instead of like I don't know, like a gorilla who can communicate.

[17:43] ANDREW RETURNS: One of the problems that I really have with this show is that throughout Act One, Tarzan doesn't really have any numbers, right? And that's something that carries over from the film. He's got I Need to Know when he's a kid, which is like kind of his I Want song, but it's not really clear what it is he's looking for. And then the other one is a song that he sings with Turk, with who better than me, and it comes up back throughout the show where it's like a relationship between him and Tark, but you don't really get Tarzan singing like proper. I'm gonna be on stage, this is what I want, this is what I'm doing. And because of that, we don't really get a great sense of who he is. Like, what is Tarzan?

Is he fun? Is he playful? Is he serious? Is he joking? Is he like desperate to be accepted into some kind of group? What's going on? So by the time it gets to Jane and he's struggling to communicate, there's this really awkward situation where if we had been listening to Tarzan sing the entire time, if they'd been spending all that time developing a really strong character for Kid Tarzan, you would know that there's this wonderful character who's struggling to express himself, but instead you get a white guy in dreadlocks on stage just rolling around like a gorilla, and it's really, really awkward. Does this guy like, is he like trying to communicate something sincere, or is he like an idiot and he can't quite piece it together?

[18:57] Ethan: Yeah.

[18:58] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah. So to me, it's like if we actually gave him numbers and we had him sing and we got to learn his character, by the time you get to Jane, you would sense his frustration and it not being able to communicate who he is and what he wants and what he likes and all that, but instead it just comes off as like really, really silly. Imagine, okay, sorry, Andrew. There's actually a it's a different, it's a different failure from Phil Collins than that he didn't write any song to Tarzan before. Nothing happens.

[19:22] Ethan: I agree. But in that moment, when I was watching them try to communicate that scene, it's very popular in the movie. And like many different other things. That feels like a song moment, and they didn't even do it when they had the opportunity to turn it into a song. Like imagine if the like their attempts at communications were musicalized. It feels like that would be like the perfect thing. Like we were talking about Bat Boy a few weeks ago. That was a perfect way to show a character learned to communicate slowly and how they did it.

[19:51] ANDREW RETURNS: Sure, yeah. And that that felt like that was a perfect way to use music and musical numbers to communicate story in a way that wouldn't come across as ridiculous, but they decided not to do that and to make it come across as ridiculous and slightly rapey.

[20:05] Ethan: Yeah. They thought that that moment would be better served if it was extremely awkward for everyone.

[20:11] ANDREW RETURNS: It was, it was.

[20:14] Ethan: Okay, like the the I don't I don't know if you guys have like the same problem here, but like the act break is super weird. Like Jane walks on stage at the end of act one, and it straight up feels like she's coming out of a different musical. Like she she's walking in off stage and she's like, This is everything I've ever wanted. Oh my god, this is fucking sick. Look at all these plants and shit. Oh my god, my life is complete. All the struggles I've ever had that none of you get to watch have totally been resolved. I'm content, I'm gonna die here writing down all of these life forms, right? And it's like great, but that sounds like a way more interesting story than what we've been dealing with. And then act one ends.

[20:53] Ethan: It's a bad outbreak. Doesn't she die to a spider or something?

[20:56] ANDREW RETURNS: I feel like she dies to a spider.

[20:57] Ethan: She gets trapped by a giant spider.

[20:59] ANDREW RETURNS: You said dies too.

[21:01] Ethan: It's like one of the few.

[21:03] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh, I mean, she probably should have, but I think Tarzan saves her.

[21:06] Ethan: I was like, man, I missed the ending. I didn't think she'd died to anything. There was a there was a big spider projection or something. Doesn't Tarzan scream or something?

[21:14] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, it was like one of the only things that they're doing.

[21:16] Ethan: Yeah, they had that scene too, I think. There's a big ass butterfly, too. I remember that. Imagine if they had taken all those pieces and just kind of made a stage it's nice to look at. And then we cut out those things, and then we could have a nice one act musical.

[21:29] ANDREW RETURNS: I I I mean, I the okay, so like the the one thing I really I I really struggled with when like I revisited this because I I watched it like one and a half, one and three quarter times, is like in the opening, like the opening number when they're establishing everything, it's like I've seen the trailer, I know there's gonna be a bunch of people doing like the zip line work and all that, hooked up into the rig, going up and down. It's like fine, I know that that's the expectation. And I was like, what are you gonna do with it? And in the opening of the number, they project a map onto the back of the stage, and the two parents are walking down the stage like they're walking across a map or like a sandy beach or something, and I was like, oh shit, that's really cool. And it's the coolest thing that they do the entire show, and the rest of it is just a bunch of aerialists going up and down.

[22:13] Ethan: Yeah, it's bad. It's very, very unengaging. Everything about this is unengaging. But there's moments where it's like, oh, a life, I feel something. Uh no. Absolutely, like you could you could totally see the glimmers of just like like a really cool show, and it's okay. Like, here's something I don't get. Why does Kerchak get so much screen time in act one and then he just kind of like vanishes in act two and then dies?

[22:37] ANDREW RETURNS: I mean, that's basically how it is in the movie, because it's three act structure where you can have him there for the first two acts and again kind of let him be away until he dies at the end of the third act. Um here, two acts, put most of that in act one, and then we gotta set up these people mostly.

[22:51] Ethan: Yeah, because there's there's a point in the show, like midway through act one where I'm sitting there, it's like, I've heard Kerchak sing more than Tarzan, and that's it. The show's not called Kerchak.

[23:01] ANDREW RETURNS: You know?

[23:02] Ethan: Yeah, but Kerchak, he comes in. To die once and then immediately dies. That's enough, right?

[23:06] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah.

[23:07] Ethan: It's like setup and payoff.

[23:08] ANDREW RETURNS: That's the payoff.

[23:09] Ethan: He dies.

[23:10] ANDREW RETURNS: It's not even a resolution to his story, is this thing.

[23:14] Ethan: There's dude it's okay. So that was that was something else that like I I really I was I was super I was super fucking confused about. I don't mean to just sit here and complain, but um, no, that's what we're here for. That's our show, basically. Well, there's like a point, there's a point where like, because they don't do a good okay. I don't know if like I misheard the song or something, but in I Need to Know the Young Tarzan song, right? He's like, Oh, I need to know if there are other people like me. But there's also because it's not I wanna know, it's I need to know.

[23:41] Ethan: Yeah.

[23:41] ANDREW RETURNS: Can you show you? It's very different. It's like he's it's like, is he looking for acceptance within the gorilla unit, or is he looking for other humans and they it I don't feel like they do a great job at really isolating what he's looking at. I could be wrong there. But once he kills the big cat, I can't remember what kind of big cat it is, the spotted one.

[23:59] Ethan: Yeah, but Cheetah, there you go.

[24:00] ANDREW RETURNS: Once he kills the big cat, uh, Kerchak is like, okay, he's cool, he can live with us. And Jane is now in an environment where she gets to do all the sciencey stuff that she ever wanted. Tarzan's now accepted by the gorillas, Kala's not excommunicated or anything like that anymore. And everything's just kind of fine. Like, there's nothing driving any like you have to stop there and then start a new story because everything is just kind of like done.

[24:24] Ethan: Which, in theory, if they had made the act break there and start act two with Jane coming in, that could work. In those are two separate stories where you have a resolution to one in act one, and then you have a new one that's throwing a wrench into what we resolved in Act One. That could work in theory.

[24:39] ANDREW RETURNS: Uh, and if you embrace that into the woods style or falsetto style, there's an argument.

[24:47] Ethan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[24:48] ANDREW RETURNS: They did not.

[24:48] Ethan: They did not do that at all. Um, they just have Jake Jane just shows up. I don't know. I'm thinking aloud right now. What if they had just taken strangers like me and ran recontextualized it to be about the gorillas in act one and make that Tarzan's I Want song? Like about him feeling like a stranger in his own place, just to the tune of Strangers Like Me, and that turns into his I Want song for Act One, and then we can recontextualize and make it his I Want Song for Act Two in that way.

[25:13] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh yeah, that would have been fucking great.

[25:15] Ethan: That would have been like absolutely Phil Collins would have to show up to work occasionally to do that.

[25:20] ANDREW RETURNS: No, that would have been fucking awesome.

[25:22] Ethan: Yeah, that would have been absolutely like fantastic.

[25:24] Jess McNally: But we'll t we'll pause and talk about that later. Um, but I think we should really compare our opinions to those of the New York theater critic, as well as to the weirdo freak perverts on letterbox. It's time for everyone's favorite section. It's time for a brevie.

[25:40] ANDREW RETURNS: It's Tom Fall Reviews.

[25:44] Ethan: It's Tom Fall Previews.

[25:47] Jess McNally: Alright, Brew, what did Ben Brantley have to say about this show though?

[25:50] Ethan: Uh I feel like Ben Brantley had to say exactly what you all had to say.

[25:55] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, we actually have to agree with Ben Brantley for once.

[25:57] Ethan: Gross.

[25:58] Andrew DeWolf: I think so.

[25:59] Ethan: Okay, um, alright, so this was from what, May of 2006?

[26:04] Andrew DeWolf: This is Ben Brantley.

[26:06] Andrew DeWolf: He said the tree surfing title character is not the only creature sailing through the air in Tarzan.

[26:12] Ethan: The giant, writhing green blob with music that opened last night at the Richard Rogers Theater.

[26:20] Andrew DeWolf: Not wrong.

[26:23] Ethan: Apes of flowers, moths, a snake, a leopard, a hunt-sized spider, two shipwrecked Victorians, an English botanist in her underwear.

[26:32] Andrew DeWolf: No sooner do such figures make their entrances in the restless adaptation of the 1999 Disney animated film than they find themselves pulled into some kind of airborne aerobics.

[26:46] Ethan: Almost everybody and everything swings in Tarzan, which is odd, since the show itself, to borrow from Duke Ellington's famous Credo, definitely ain't got that swing.

[26:56] Andrew DeWolf: Man, what he's like the cringiest at this.

[26:59] Ethan: Yeah, he's really mad at this.

[27:01] Andrew DeWolf: Ben Brantley, you knew that there was gonna be a Phil Collins soundtrack. Like what do you mean?

[27:04] Ethan: He didn't expect high quality a year.

[27:07] Andrew DeWolf: No moment seems to carry more dramatic weight than any other.

[27:11] Ethan: All instances of swinging, and they they are countless, have been created equal.

[27:17] Andrew DeWolf: And Mr. Collins' soda pop songs, expanded from those he wrote for the film, surf and evaporate more or less at random like bubbles on a pond.

[27:28] Ethan: The whole experience starts to feel like a super deluxe daycare center equipped with lots of bungee cords and karaoke synthesizers, where kids can swing when they get tired of singing and vice versa.

[27:41] Andrew DeWolf: But only Natasha Katz lighting, especially the impressionist dots that suggest flocks of butterflies, summons a magical spirit.

[27:51] Ethan: Otherwise, all of those layers and layers of green, walls of shredded cloth and scrims in the floor coverings, start to induce claustrophobia after a while.

[28:02] Andrew DeWolf: No wonder the cast members spend so much time in the air.

[28:05] Ethan: Even with a personal spotlight, no one has much of a chance of standing out in this oppressive jungle.

[28:12] Andrew DeWolf: Hot damn.

[28:14] Ethan: I mean, I don't disagree.

[28:16] Andrew DeWolf: It was mean, but it was like.

[28:17] Ethan: I do want to point out the only Tony Award nomination this got was for the lighting.

[28:21] Andrew DeWolf: And I agree. The lighting is very good.

[28:22] Ethan: The lighting is very, very good, yeah.

[28:24] Andrew DeWolf: I want to I want to know what happened. This this feels like one of those shows you go and you watch it, and you're like, you want to start pointing fingers around and be like, okay, who fucked up? You know, but uh this this feels like something big happened, and it's a bunch of people who know what they're doing who are desperately trying to piece this together and have it be a show. You know what I mean?

[28:39] Ethan: I agree. I agree.

[28:41] Andrew DeWolf: This director has done good things, he's done bad things just as often.

[28:44] Ethan: Um he won a Tony for the design and uh direction of once.

[28:49] Andrew DeWolf: He also was nominated for Olivier's for the original version of Love Never Dies.

[28:53] Ethan: Take that for what it's worth.

[28:54] Andrew DeWolf: It was bad.

[28:55] Ethan: So it's give and take.

[28:56] Andrew DeWolf: Um, the gentleman that wrote this um also did Flower Drum Song and Aida both have good books.

[29:02] Ethan: Um so I don't know where to feel about this.

[29:04] Andrew DeWolf: Phil Collins, he did Brother Bear, which you know, everyone's favorite.

[29:08] Ethan: I think that they messed up because the movie isn't a musical, and then they just took the songs, which aren't set up for a musical, and they did that.

[29:16] Andrew DeWolf: And then they didn't give it any budget, so it's not a good thing.

[29:19] Ethan: I think the budget's a huge thing.

[29:21] Andrew DeWolf: But it had the freedom to do whatever it wanted, which is not the case for a lot of Disney musicals.

[29:26] Ethan: Right, but like it had if it had all that freedom, it didn't elect to use it, I guess.

[29:31] Andrew DeWolf: No. You know, like because this is like musical theater and it's not the film, and the film is really honestly the film is really constrained by the fact that it is a film, that by the fact that you can't have Phil Phil Collins' disembodied voice just be like the god narrator, right? And the fact that you can have a CGI dude like interlock his toes with a character and swing on a vine while like a swarm of monkeys chase them. Like, it's wild, it's out there, and you c you gotta suspend your disbelief, but it it like it works in that like animated environment.

[29:58] Ethan: And when it comes to musical theater, you're gonna have to lean on different techniques and do something very different.

[30:02] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, like I I I understand the freedom, but they really needed to go like in a totally like like go in one direction and go really, really far.

[30:10] Ethan: What if they did um interpretive dance and they had a disembodied voice like?

[30:15] Andrew DeWolf: I want to know.

[30:17] Ethan: Can you show me?

[30:19] Andrew DeWolf: I want to know about these strangers.

[30:22] Ethan: And everyone on everyone on like no one is on stage singing, everyone is just dancing.

[30:28] Andrew DeWolf: It's fucking just her Tarzan's opera show.

[30:30] Ethan: Yes.

[30:31] Andrew DeWolf: Go for it.

[30:31] Ethan: Just go hard, super post-modernist.

[30:33] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[30:34] Ethan: You know what? I think we should go into the insane bowels of Letterboxd in uh the game show we have at Musicals with Cheese, which is one star, five star.

[30:44] Andrew DeWolf: Well, Bree and I are gonna go team our take turns and ask you, read a review to you from Letterboxd, an actual review. We did not make any of these up. And you have to tell us whether it was a one-star review or a five-star review.

[30:55] Ethan: Um, Bri, whose team do you wanna be on? Andrew's or Ethan's.

[30:57] Brianna Jones: Ooh, um, why why would you put me in this position?

[31:02] Brianna Jones: Um one's gonna judge you.

[31:04] Andrew DeWolf: Everyone's gonna judge you.

[31:05] Brianna Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[31:07] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, uh, Andrew has really good experience. With this, I'm gonna go with Andrew.

[31:11] Ethan: That's a good point.

[31:12] Andrew DeWolf: I see, I'm not gonna forget this. I've won every single time so far.

[31:16] Ethan: Alright, but I gotta go first, alright?

[31:18] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, okay. So it's got it's a one-star or a five-star review.

[31:21] Ethan: It is either a one-star or a five-star.

[31:22] Andrew DeWolf: No in between.

[31:23] Ethan: There's no like 3.5.

[31:24] Andrew DeWolf: These are these are binaries.

[31:26] Ethan: Alright, let's go.

[31:27] Andrew DeWolf: This is the first one. Um, Ethan, are you ready?

[31:29] Ethan: I am.

[31:30] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. The review says Tarzan slapped Gorilla cheeks before he met Jane. Changed my mind.

[31:35] Ethan: Five stars.

[31:36] Andrew DeWolf: Correct.

[31:37] Ethan: Yes!

[31:39] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Brie.

[31:41] Brianna Jones: Okay.

[31:42] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew.

[31:43] Brianna Jones: I feel like Jane felt like Tarzan was hung.

[31:51] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[31:52] Ethan: I mean, yes.

[31:53] Brianna Jones: Um, five stars.

[31:54] Andrew DeWolf: Five stars.

[31:55] Ethan: Ooh.

[31:56] Andrew DeWolf: One star.

[31:57] Ethan: How is that a one star?

[31:58] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[31:59] Ethan: I agree.

[32:00] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, alright, alright. Are you ready, Ethan?

[32:02] Ethan: I am.

[32:03] Andrew DeWolf: This one's actually very important. Um, I I I need to find it. Hold on. I know which one I want. Um I'm It's gonna be a trick one, I can feel it.

[32:11] Ethan: No.

[32:11] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, you ready?

[32:12] Ethan: I am.

[32:13] Andrew DeWolf: Even though a YouTube explained why the movie flops because of the music, I really liked it.

[32:21] Ethan: Five?

[32:22] Andrew DeWolf: That is a five stars!

[32:26] Ethan: I saw that, and I was like, holy shit, this is made for us.

[32:30] Andrew DeWolf: Biggest regret of my life.

[32:31] Ethan: Damn.

[32:32] Andrew DeWolf: I wonder what the A YouTube was.

[32:34] Ethan: How is Tarzan white with dreadlocks? Microphone emoji.

[32:40] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that sounds like a call out.

[32:42] Ethan: I want to say one star, but I'm gonna go with one star.

[32:45] Andrew DeWolf: One star there.

[32:46] Ethan: You are correct.

[32:47] Andrew DeWolf: That is another good question.

[32:49] Ethan: I feel like if you lived in the jungle, you probably would have dragged.

[32:52] Andrew DeWolf: In a beard box, no matter what place you have.

[32:54] Ethan: Um you would have a beard too.

[32:57] Andrew DeWolf: That is the weird part.

[32:58] Ethan: Alright, are you ready for this one, Ethan?

[33:00] Ethan: I am.

[33:00] Andrew DeWolf: I used to take a bite of broccoli and pretend it's Tarzan's tree house.

[33:04] Ethan: That's five.

[33:06] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct.

[33:08] Ethan: Yeah, that's someone who likes broccoli.

[33:11] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Brie, bring it.

[33:14] Brianna Jones: Single-handedly the most ambitious, quote, I can fix him, unquote, ever.

[33:24] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, seed reduction. Um, let's see yeah uh geez did they like it was ambitious uh yeah I'm gonna say I'm gonna say five stars for that one you are correct are we tied yeah yeah you're officially tied but Ethan it's your turn you got this yeah let's go let's go I feel like we'll agree with this one be ready this one's long elephants are enigmas in this movie why did Tantor the elephant leave his family and way of life to travel with the gorillas and live with the gorilla clan he's traumatized by teenage Tarzan now decides that they're besties also how does this elephant know about piranhas how do elephants know about South America why do they call it South America how do they know about America they're in Africa and never left the jungle yet they know about piranhas in South America furthermore they how do they not know what humans are but they don't they know what piranhas in South America are Tarzan is not even the first human in this jungle yet the elephants are confused and terrified of him I don't get the elephants in this movie okay they're looking up on Wikipedia Shit I'm like that's a that's a fan that's somebody who took their time to write it out one that is correct Andrew we got someone coming for your title that was a tough that was a tough one that was a tough one I'll give it to him.

[34:44] Brianna Jones: Alright Bree what we got look me in the eye and tell me you don't imagine Tarzan as Harry Styles with long hair five stars.

[35:02] Ethan: I didn't realize this film was such an awakening to so many people.

[35:06] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, alright, Ethan, you got this.

[35:08] Ethan: You got this crap alright um when Glenn Close wins the Oscar, I'll imagine a gorilla giving the speech.

[35:14] Andrew DeWolf: Five stars.

[35:15] Ethan: One star.

[35:15] Andrew DeWolf: Fuck!

[35:16] Ethan: Ooh!

[35:18] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, expected to win an Oscar, but then they also gave it one star.

[35:21] Ethan: She didn't even win the Oscar.

[35:23] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, breathe.

[35:24] Brianna Jones: Uh Jane is horny like an anime chick.

[35:28] Andrew DeWolf: God damn it.

[35:28] Ethan: I already said I feel like I already said five stars for this exact one.

[35:33] Andrew DeWolf: And I was wrong.

[35:34] Brianna Jones: Should I go the other way?

[35:35] Andrew DeWolf: No, five stars.

[35:36] Brianna Jones: It's five stars.

[35:37] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's one star.

[35:40] Brianna Jones: How is that a one star?

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: What if they don't like anime?

[35:43] Ethan: Oh shit.

[35:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[35:44] Ethan: They don't like anime ticket.

[35:46] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, alright, Ethan, you ready?

[35:47] Ethan: Uh alright, let's go.

[35:49] Andrew DeWolf: That dad was hot. Rip.

[35:50] Ethan: Five stars.

[35:52] Andrew DeWolf: Absolutely.

[35:53] Ethan: One star.

[35:53] Andrew DeWolf: Oh fuck it.

[35:55] Ethan: Dude, all the people that think that Tarzan is hot, they hate this movie.

[35:59] Andrew DeWolf: There's a lot of self-loathing.

[36:01] Ethan: Uh soundtrack went stupid.

[36:04] Andrew DeWolf: Ooh.

[36:05] Ethan: I saw this on a YouTube once.

[36:07] Andrew DeWolf: Um star.

[36:09] Ethan: One star.

[36:10] Andrew DeWolf: Five stars.

[36:11] Ethan: That's five stars.

[36:12] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[36:12] Ethan: Yep.

[36:13] Andrew DeWolf: The soundtrack is.

[36:14] Ethan: Yeah, when something went stupid, it's good.

[36:16] Andrew DeWolf: What is this like Michael Jackson bad?

[36:18] Ethan: Like Yeah.

[36:20] Andrew DeWolf: What is this? The 80s?

[36:22] Ethan: Alright, Ethan, Ethan.

[36:23] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-huh.

[36:23] Ethan: Full review. His feet must be so gross.

[36:26] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[36:27] Ethan: I'm just sitting here like, what if it's somebody who's in defeat?

[36:30] Andrew DeWolf: There is a lot of shots of feet in the face.

[36:32] Ethan: If it's somebody who's in defeat, this is a five.

[36:34] Andrew DeWolf: What was it again?

[36:35] Ethan: His feet must be so gross.

[36:36] Andrew DeWolf: Like a dispelling be asking for them repeat it.

[36:41] Ethan: Five.

[36:42] Andrew DeWolf: One.

[36:42] Ethan: Shit!

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: His his feet are literally like mostly like mostly splinter wood that are just stuck in there.

[36:49] Ethan: They're just calluses.

[36:50] Andrew DeWolf: They're basically shoes.

[36:52] Ethan: Oh god, I don't know what that is to me.

[36:54] Andrew DeWolf: You know what? You have a you has a point, yeah.

[36:56] Ethan: Oh, ew.

[36:58] Andrew DeWolf: That doesn't that mean that that's still correct.

[37:01] Brianna Jones: Alright, Bree, what you got?

[37:02] Andrew DeWolf: We got a couple left.

[37:04] Brianna Jones: When I was 15, my friends used to make fun of me for having a haircut like the gorilla girl.

[37:12] Andrew DeWolf: Which gorilla girl?

[37:14] Brianna Jones: Turk, I'm imagining.

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: Just like the little like the little cowlick.

[37:17] Brianna Jones: Yeah.

[37:18] Andrew DeWolf: Um.

[37:18] Brianna Jones: Oh god.

[37:19] Andrew DeWolf: Um five?

[37:21] Brianna Jones: No.

[37:22] Andrew DeWolf: Five stars.

[37:24] Brianna Jones: You guys were on it wrong.

[37:25] Andrew DeWolf: And then we just like totally fell off.

[37:28] Brianna Jones: All these people sound like they love the movie.

[37:29] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and then they hate it.

[37:30] Brianna Jones: It's like, what is this?

[37:31] Andrew DeWolf: Is it this?

[37:32] Brianna Jones: Steven, you're gonna get this one.

[37:33] Andrew DeWolf: You're gonna get levels of irony that I just can't decode.

[37:35] Brianna Jones: Yeah, we're like eight levels of irony down.

[37:37] Andrew DeWolf: You're gonna get this one, I believe.

[37:38] Brianna Jones: Fuck.

[37:38] Andrew DeWolf: Don't jinx me like that.

[37:40] Brianna Jones: Alright. This is the entire review says Phil colonialism.

[37:40] Andrew DeWolf: Phil colonialism.

[37:45] Brianna Jones: But it's well colonism.

[37:50] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[37:50] Brianna Jones: We didn't we didn't discuss the themes there, but we didn't.

[37:54] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I did not get that is a one.

[38:03] Brianna Jones: Oh fuck.

[38:04] Andrew DeWolf: Careful.

[38:04] Brianna Jones: Twitter's gonna hear this one.

[38:06] Andrew DeWolf: You give colonialism five stars?

[38:09] Brianna Jones: Trying I'm trying to get into the mind of somebody who types that out on a keyboard and hits send.

[38:14] Ethan: Phil colonialism.

[38:17] ANDREW RETURNS: That's somebody who worked it out, okay.

[38:19] Ethan: They Googled it.

[38:20] ANDREW RETURNS: They copied and pasted into Google to see if anybody else had made that joke before.

[38:24] Jess McNally: Bree, we got three three left.

[38:26] ANDREW RETURNS: I think, yeah, each one gets one and then a tiebreaker.

[38:30] Jess McNally: Okay.

[38:30] Jess McNally: Um, okay, Andrew, this one's this you got this, okay.

[38:35] ANDREW RETURNS: I don't know. These have been weird.

[38:37] Ethan: They're all weird.

[38:38] ANDREW RETURNS: It's letterbox.

[38:39] Ethan: They've been out there, yeah.

[38:40] Jess McNally: Yeah.

[38:41] Ethan: Women colonizers greater than men colonizers.

[38:45] ANDREW RETURNS: And there's three greater than signs.

[38:47] Ethan: Three greater than signs, yeah.

[38:49] ANDREW RETURNS: I mean I get what they're saying. Jane is definitely better than the professor and um Andrew Blayton.

[38:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um and Tarzan for that matter.

[38:56] Ethan: Um and Tarzan's parents.

[38:58] Andrew DeWolf: Tarzan's parents as well.

[38:59] Ethan: Um geez, everybody who likes Jane has hated this movie, though.

[39:03] Andrew DeWolf: No, go in my gut.

[39:05] ANDREW RETURNS: Five stars.

[39:05] Ethan: Yep.

[39:08] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Ethan.

[39:08] Ethan: You gotta tie this up.

[39:10] Ethan: You can't embarrass me.

[39:11] Ethan: Send me in, coach.

[39:13] Ethan: Alright, alright.

[39:14] Ethan: Alright.

[39:15] Ethan: So here's the review.

[39:16] Ethan: The full review.

[39:17] Andrew DeWolf: I believe in you.

[39:18] Ethan: Look at me in the eyes.

[39:18] Ethan: We got this.

[39:19] Ethan: We got this.

[39:20] Ethan: Alright.

[39:20] Ethan: Tarzan is only hot because you can't smell them.

[39:24] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[39:26] Ethan: The gerbil in my head is not moving.

[39:30] Ethan: I'm gonna say it again.

[39:31] Ethan: I'm gonna try to.

[39:31] Ethan: Tarzan's only hot because you can't smell him.

[39:34] Andrew DeWolf: One.

[39:34] ANDREW RETURNS: That is correct.

[39:35] Ethan: Fuck yeah.

[39:37] Ethan: Tie it up.

[39:37] Ethan: We got one tiebreaker.

[39:38] Ethan: Bree, how do you want to do this tiebreaker?

[39:40] Andrew DeWolf: Jungle musk, though.

[39:42] Ethan: And that's what Jane's like.

[39:45] Ethan: Like his entire body smells like a dick.

[39:50] Andrew DeWolf: Literally true, yes.

[39:51] Ethan: Oh my god.

[39:53] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so technically this should be Andrew's question.

[39:56] Ethan: Well, since we're tied up, I was thinking we should.

[39:59] Ethan: Since I went first.

[40:01] Ethan: I figure we could have a tiebreaker.

[40:02] Andrew DeWolf: Come on.

[40:03] Ethan: Okay.

[40:04] Ethan: This can be a tiebreaker.

[40:05] Ethan: But technically, technically it's Andrew's.

[40:07] Ethan: Andrew's a returning champ, so that he doesn't get that.

[40:10] Andrew DeWolf: Oh.

[40:11] Ethan: So how do you want to do this?

[40:13] Andrew DeWolf: I think maybe whoever throws out an answer first.

[40:16] Ethan: Oh, you're gonna make it on the buzzer.

[40:18] Ethan: This is gonna be an absolute mess, but okay.

[40:20] Andrew DeWolf: 50 50, huh?

[40:21] Ethan: Okay.

[40:21] Ethan: Yep.

[40:22] Ethan: 50 50 shot, guys.

[40:23] Ethan: Alright.

[40:23] Ethan: Bree, I'll read this.

[40:25] Ethan: Okay.

[40:25] Ethan: Tell you.

[40:26] Ethan: Alright, here's the full review.

[40:27] Ethan: And whoever screams out the right answer gets it.

[40:29] Ethan: Alright?

[40:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[40:30] Ethan: Ready?

[40:31] Andrew DeWolf: Mm-hmm.

[40:31] Ethan: Turk doobie making some jams.

[40:34] Andrew DeWolf: Oh five stars.

[40:35] Ethan: I said five.

[40:36] Andrew DeWolf: We both said five.

[40:37] Ethan: I think that's it.

[40:37] Ethan: That is y'all broke it.

[40:39] Ethan: It's a tie.

[40:40] Ethan: That was a one star.

[40:41] Ethan: That was a one star.

[40:43] Ethan: They're like, man, these turf jams are fucking lame, bro.

[40:46] Andrew DeWolf: Wow.

[40:47] Ethan: For the first time ever on Letterboxd previews, we have a tie.

[40:51] Andrew DeWolf: Excellent.

[40:52] Ethan: Two King losers.

[40:55] Ethan: Both people are in last place.

[40:58] Ethan: I guess you guys are just too evenly matched and too good at this game.

[41:01] Ethan: So I congratulate you both.

[41:03] Ethan: You both get the plastic metal.

[41:04] Andrew DeWolf: Sure.

[41:05] Ethan: You both get the look and smell like Tarzan.

[41:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah smell Tarzan's feet.

[41:12] Ethan: Just like Harry Styles.

[41:14] Ethan: Just like Harry Styles, but horny comments.

[41:18] Andrew DeWolf: I mean that movie is kind of horny.

[41:20] Ethan: It's the stage show too.

[41:21] Ethan: It's a lot of nudity.

[41:23] Ethan: It translates very well onto the stage.

[41:25] Ethan: It's even hornier.

[41:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[41:26] Andrew DeWolf: I mean if you got a half naked man and a girl is like ooh yeah the penis a professor father who's like ooh this is a great relationship I should encourage.

[41:37] Ethan: Looks and smells like a penis.

[41:39] Andrew DeWolf: Wow.

[41:41] Ethan: There's a there's a three-way in the future.

[41:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah I mean why do you think they brought Clayton?

[41:46] Ethan: He was supposed to be the fuck boy.

[41:48] Andrew DeWolf: Oh god the American Yeah.

[41:52] Ethan: Hey yo Jane I don't know what got going on here but I was promising something.

[41:57] Ethan: Alright Tarzan and Clayton have the talk and then he then Clayton slams his hat in his leg and grabs it.

[42:03] Ethan: And it was the coolest thing in the whole show.

[42:05] Andrew DeWolf: Anyone else catch that?

[42:06] Ethan: I don't remember that at all.

[42:07] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sorry.

[42:08] Ethan: Andrew's making shit up again.

[42:09] Andrew DeWolf: I didn't make that up.

[42:10] Andrew DeWolf: That's in there.

[42:11] Andrew DeWolf: He slaps his leg and he catches a hat.

[42:12] Ethan: I don't remember that.

[42:13] Andrew DeWolf: He takes his hat in his hand and he slams it onto his leg, it bounces back up and he grabs it.

[42:18] Andrew DeWolf: And it was the coolest thing in the entire show.

[42:19] Ethan: Huh.

[42:20] Ethan: Yes, I remember that.

[42:21] Ethan: That was pretty cool.

[42:21] Ethan: Somebody's cool with that.

[42:23] Andrew DeWolf: Someone making a make a gif of that.

[42:24] Ethan: Yeah, send it to the game.

[42:25] Ethan: Okay, do the work, find the Tarzan bootleg, go frame by frame into this one moment and make a gift out of that.

[42:31] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sure all of our fans are gonna put the work in doing that.

[42:34] Ethan: Send it to me on the work in.

[42:36] Ethan: Yes.

[42:36] Ethan: Um once you do it.

[42:37] Ethan: Maybe if you send it to Ethan, he'll retweet it, then you'll get a lot of likes.

[42:41] Andrew DeWolf: There you go.

[42:41] Ethan: You will.

[42:42] Ethan: Yes.

[42:42] Ethan: Um on that note, how about we go into a mid-show interruption and then talk about some songs.

[42:53] Jess McNally: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt in the middle of the show, but we've got a sh-shill at you.

[42:57] Jess McNally: Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon.

[43:02] Jess McNally: Patreon's a place where you can get a ton of f paid stuff.

[43:05] Jess McNally: Um, you get a weekly podcast that's all on its own that no one else gets.

[43:10] Jess McNally: Um, you get the video episodes of the show, so you can see our wonderful, wonderful faces and the OBS screen for Ethan.

[43:17] Jess McNally: Um, and so much other cool stuff that you're missing out on.

[43:22] Jess McNally: Um, our monthly Patreon meetups, which um I will I don't know when it's gonna be this month.

[43:28] Jess McNally: Maybe it's today.

[43:28] Jess McNally: We'll see.

[43:29] Jess McNally: Um, but Andrew, why don't you tell us who's supporting us on Patreon?

[43:32] Andrew DeWolf: All right, our uh current patrons are, and this this list keeps getting longer.

[43:36] Andrew DeWolf: You guys are are the best.

[43:38] Andrew DeWolf: It's actually shorter than last time.

[43:40] Jess McNally: Don't tell them that.

[43:42] Andrew DeWolf: It makes me a little sad.

[43:43] Andrew DeWolf: Melissa Goldman, Terry Needleman, uh, John Donna, Layton Ackles, Danielle Renics, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Teskeer, Monica Thoreau, Mina Meneary, Brent Black, Haley Murray, Nathaniel Stacey Coombe, Joseph Evans Green, Carrie Ahern, Mary Lucio Choquette, John Van Alves, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Tablam, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Scoot in the Technicolor, Dreamcoat, Felice A, Liz Limb, Alison Staller, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, Thesbian, Ren Collin, Wait in the Wings, Raphael Martinez Delas, uh, Robert Benjamin, Jessica T, Michelle Young, uh, Chai Teacup, Katie McDonough, Timothy Keyes, Jeffrey Machado, Chris Marquette, uh, Tamimu Robinson, uh, Kiji Marie Anastasio, Leva, RJ Noriga, Sebastian Canino, uh, Avan Regan, Lizzie Haynes, Charlie B, Patrick Deering, Courtney Schreiner, Joe.

[44:35] Andrew DeWolf: I like that one.

[44:35] Andrew DeWolf: Just Joe.

[44:36] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Avery Brinson.

[44:40] Andrew DeWolf: Marilyn Brown, um, Mel Cormac, Lafemme Fictionale, Bjorn Hermans, uh, Trent Trinese, uh Massey, August Gorman, Mac the Knife, Erica S.

[44:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, Zamai, is that Zmai?

[44:53] Andrew DeWolf: Zmai, and uh Toriana Vestal.

[44:57] Andrew DeWolf: They give us a little extra financial support.

[44:58] Andrew DeWolf: That helps us keep the lights on here, musicals with cheese.

[45:00] Jess McNally: If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, such as patron only commentaries, or episodes a day early, video episodes, and a ton of other free crap, come join them over at Patreon.

[45:09] Andrew DeWolf: All right.

[45:10] Andrew DeWolf: Are you ready to go back to the show?

[45:12] Jess McNally: Wait, hold on.

[45:13] Jess McNally: Um, for currently for a Black Friday sale, buy our merch.

[45:16] Jess McNally: It's literally very much on sale right now.

[45:18] Jess McNally: It is actually very criminally on sale.

[45:21] Andrew DeWolf: I love it.

[45:21] Jess McNally: Go go buy some for your family.

[45:23] Jess McNally: Black Friday, it's good great Christmas presents for the whole fan.

[45:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you want them to wear cheesy merch.

[45:28] Jess McNally: We just got a new design with um this this wonderful design with all three of us.

[45:32] Jess McNally: So if you want all three of us on your body, buy that one.

[45:35] Andrew DeWolf: Ooh, hornier than Tarzan over here.

[45:38] Jess McNally: Hell yeah.

[45:39] Jess McNally: Alright.

[45:39] Jess McNally: Alright, let's talk about songs.

[45:49] Ethan: Put your faith in what you most believe in.

[45:54] Ethan: Two worlds, one family.

[45:57] Ethan: Trust your hearts.

[45:59] Ethan: Let things decide.

[46:02] Ethan: Guide these lives we see.

[46:19] Ethan: Softly tread the sand below your feet now.

[46:24] Ethan: Two worlds, one family.

[46:27] Ethan: Trust your heart.

[46:29] Ethan: Let things decide.

[46:32] Ethan: Guide these lives received.

[46:35] Andrew DeWolf: So the opening number of two worlds.

[46:37] Andrew DeWolf: It kind of works.

[46:39] Andrew DeWolf: I think the song kind of works a little bit.

[46:42] Andrew DeWolf: I like it.

[46:42] Andrew DeWolf: It's it's it's good.

[46:44] Andrew DeWolf: I liked it, but when like as soon as it as soon as it happened, you're just kind of sitting there and you're like, okay, we like we're just not gonna be able to get up to Phil Collins's energy.

[46:53] Andrew DeWolf: Like it's just not gonna be the same.

[46:55] Andrew DeWolf: We're gonna this is what we've got, this is where we are.

[46:57] Ethan: You kinda gotta set your expectations, you know what I mean?

[46:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I can see that.

[47:00] Ethan: I love the orchestration though.

[47:01] Ethan: I feel like the orchestration is better than it was in the movie, to be honest.

[47:05] Andrew DeWolf: I did like I liked it.

[47:07] Andrew DeWolf: I think I prefer Phil Collins's version.

[47:09] Andrew DeWolf: That might just be because I'm more with it.

[47:11] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but yeah, like for what it was, I thought it was very good.

[47:13] Andrew DeWolf: And I I also thought it was like a really great, like just musically speaking, I thought it was like a a great a great number.

[47:19] Ethan: Yeah, I don't know if it works as an opening number.

[47:22] Ethan: Uh it works as well as it does in the movie.

[47:24] Ethan: I mean, the movie kind of frames it as like a song song where this is like an opening that needs to set up the rules and all that.

[47:31] Ethan: And it doesn't really do that.

[47:33] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah it was it was tr it like that's the thing is like just like as a song on its own I thought it was really good, but it doesn't establish any characters.

[47:40] Andrew DeWolf: It doesn't introduce us to anybody.

[47:42] Andrew DeWolf: It doesn't really give us the setting.

[47:43] Andrew DeWolf: It tells us the parents which is cool.

[47:45] Andrew DeWolf: I thought that the um the like tent thing that they car that they like rigged up and lifted off the ground I thought that was really cool.

[47:51] Andrew DeWolf: But but yeah like in terms of hitting the ground running it's it's very much just like it happens then you're like okay and story.

[47:57] Ethan: You know I I agree but would it have just I I don't need to see Tarzan's parents die.

[48:02] Ethan: Wouldn't that have worked a little better in this specific thing if it was like a twist where we just kind of start with him already introduced into the gorilla clan and two worlds is kind of like just him talking about how he feels the one that's sorry that's like a Spider-Man that's like a Spider-Man movie without showing Uncle Ben You have to the we don't though one thing the one thing I really really liked about the number was the music box.

[48:25] Ethan: And how like the music box makes two worlds like kind of diegetic or it's like it's an actual song in the world of Tarzan that he can hear and how that comes back later.

[48:33] Andrew DeWolf: I I thought that was really cool.

[48:34] Andrew DeWolf: I think yeah I like that element and maybe we just start with that like start with the music box and the baby and then we just smash cut to like grill grill life and then it becomes like you believe in two words I'm a gorilla man Yeah.

[48:51] Ethan: You know the biggest the biggest problem with two worlds is that they didn't bring it back at the end.

[48:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[48:56] Andrew DeWolf: I I think they sing strangers like me at the end.

[48:59] Ethan: Yeah, it's it's like fragments of tunes.

[49:02] Ethan: Yeah.

[49:02] Andrew DeWolf: They don't like do I feel like two worlds should be at the end.

[49:05] Ethan: Mm-hmm.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: I agree.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: I mean that's kind of the overarching theme, the two worlds, the one family I'm pretty sure they sing it at the end of the movie, too.

[49:13] Ethan: Yeah.

[49:13] Ethan: Like imagining him and Jane going through the vines and they they sing it.

[49:18] Andrew DeWolf: It's the closing shot, like right before he turns, looks at the camera, and then you see the then you see Tarzan.

[49:21] Andrew DeWolf: You see the title.

[49:22] Ethan: Man, that's where no one got it.

[49:25] Ethan: They didn't understand the movie.

[49:28] Andrew DeWolf: But did Tarzan wibble wobble or fall?

[49:31] Ethan: What they watched the movie and what they got out of it is like, damn, this Tarzan and Jane thing is kinda hot.

[49:39] Andrew DeWolf: Man.

[49:40] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, Tarzan does.

[49:42] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, seeing Tarzan on stage as a person, he does look like he smells really bad.

[49:48] Ethan: It it's so weird.

[49:50] Ethan: It's so weird to like it's it's yeah, it's uh it's it's especially disbelief.

[49:54] Ethan: It's the level of reality you're looking at on stage, and it's just like that's just a kid in undies.

[49:58] Andrew DeWolf: Like I'm just looking at a child in their underwear performing.

[50:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's like I'm not okay with this.

[50:04] Andrew DeWolf: I'm very uncomfortable.

[50:05] Ethan: Don't like it.

[50:06] Ethan: I know there's a lot of issues with this story, starting with like the colonialism is good side of it and all that.

[50:12] Andrew DeWolf: But did I didn't get this from this the the animated film, but I got it a lot from the stage show.

[50:17] Andrew DeWolf: There is an inherent power imbalance, um in intelligent and consent levels between Jane and Tarzan, where Tarzan has like the mental capabilities of, let's say, let's be kind, it's say a 12-year-old.

[50:30] Andrew DeWolf: And Jane is a full grown woman with education and all that.

[50:34] Ethan: It feels groomes.

[50:36] Ethan: Well, no, no.

[50:37] Ethan: See, like that's that's like a that's like a problem I have with the show.

[50:39] Ethan: Like I see what you're s I see what what you're saying, but my my take on the show is that like Tarzan is on the same, like I don't I don't know how to word this.

[50:48] Ethan: Like Tarzan and Jane are on the same like intellectual capacity, but it's the communication barrier that keeps them apart.

[50:54] Ethan: Like it's literally it's literally the language that stops them from communicating.

[50:56] Ethan: And that's something that I really would have wanted to see in like a whole first act of Tarzan singing a bunch of songs about how he feels and what he's doing, and like demonstrating that he's capable of like all this complex understanding of what's going on, how he feels, the isolation, working with the gorillas and stuff like that.

[51:10] Ethan: Because then once he gets to Jane, it's like the problem is the language, but instead I see what you're saying, where it comes off as like Tarzan just doesn't understand what's happening.

[51:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, he like he doesn't understand when he's being played, he doesn't understand the emotional complexities of what Clayton's bringing.

[51:24] Andrew DeWolf: It comes off really nice.

[51:26] Andrew DeWolf: Clayton just like tricks him like super easily just by saying that Jane's gonna leave.

[51:30] Ethan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:31] Ethan: Which is like, okay.

[51:32] Ethan: Because like what's what's the there's like a whole scene where he's just like uh Tarzan show Jane gorillas now Tar or Jane Stay.

[51:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, that was like the uh and like I'm pretty sure in the uh in the movie, doesn't Tarzan kind of like actually learn English for those.

[51:46] Ethan: Yeah, the most important thing.

[51:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, for the most part, yeah, they can really like, yeah, exactly.

[51:50] Jess McNally: So I don't know, it's not really in the movie where it's it it is as much as it is here.

[51:53] Andrew DeWolf: Ethan, I don't know if I've asked you this on previous episodes, but have you looked into the hunchback musical at all?

[51:59] Ethan: I have. I've looked at it a lot. I think the way they show Quasimodo's, like he has vocal and defects along with his like physical ones, and he's deaf and all that. But he starts off very monosyllabic, but when he starts singing, he's able to articulate better.

[52:15] Jess McNally: Yeah, I love that. We need that. We need that so much in the screen.

[52:18] Ethan: Yeah, like and I feel I feel like that's like really the genuine strength of musical theater is that you can just you can turn reality off, have somebody sing, you get all this just like front loaded emotional content, and it's like great, I can really connect to this person, right? And then you go back to reality and you're like, okay, we're let's continue on with the story. Like, that's like it feels like this should have been a home run in that regard. You know what I mean?

[52:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[52:41] Jess McNally: There is one scene that works, and let's talk about that. The "You'll Be in My Heart" scene, I think really works.

[52:46] Ethan: It's wonderful. I absolutely love it. I I yeah, I nothing bad to say about it, honestly.

[52:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh one bad thing. There's a whole show that follows it.

[52:55] Ethan: That's fair.

[52:56] Jess McNally: That's fair.

[52:57] Ethan: You know what? You make some good points, Andrew.

[52:59] ♪ Musical number ♪

[54:00] Jess McNally: This scene, I think that the mom is very good. Like, very good performance. She's all the best character. She's yeah, she's absolutely fantastic.

[54:06] Ethan: And then she also she also disappears after Jane shows up.

[54:10] Jess McNally: Yeah.

[54:11] Ethan: And that's not to say Jane's bad. I think Jane is very good. Like the actress is doing a lot with that character as much as she can.

[54:17] Jess McNally: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, doesn't mean it's I I missed I missed um what's her name? Kahlo.

[54:22] Ethan: Yeah.

[54:22] Jess McNally: Yeah, this song works. And I love it when it's reprised later in Act Two, and you that emotional payoff really works in the same way that it That scene doesn't work for me in the movie, really, because it feels like it should be a song there, to be honest.

[54:34] Ethan: Yeah.

[54:35] Jess McNally: Exactly. So I d don't connect with that scene. But here I was like, oh, a new emotion I didn't have from the movie. And this is the one time it happened. Literally the one time it happened. This moment and then it comes back at the end when Tarzan's about to leave. That's like the single golden thread in the show. Like everything else, I was just like, it was just missing me. But this was like re this like hit me like really hard. I thought it was really fantastic.

[54:55] Ethan: I agree completely.

[54:56] Jess McNally: Um, Andrew, any other words?

[54:58] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I just think it's uh interesting that you think the only new emotion that this added was in a song that was already in the movie. When they added new songs. Can we talk about the new songs?

[55:07] Jess McNally: Well, less we can. Let's talk about "I Need to Know" by young Tarzan. Not to be confused with the first lyrics of "Strangers Like Me," which is "I Wanna Know."

[55:17] Ethan: Well, hang on, do you want to talk about Jungle Funk first? Remember this song.

[55:17] Jess McNally: Jungle Funk.

[55:21] Andrew DeWolf: You don't want to talk about the Jungle Funk, the whole ensemble number where they're doing all the Capayera.

[55:26] Jess McNally: I forgot that song even existed. Let's talk about it.

[55:28] Ethan: I remember "Who Better Than Me."

[55:32] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no. Jungle funk, it's like everybody so for the couple things, right? First off, I really like this is this is weird, and it's more of a practical effect. I really like the costumes for the gorillas. Right? Because ever since I saw Shrek the musical, every time I see somebody in a fursuit, I just can't help but think about how much they must be dying. So seeing everybody in like, I don't know if I want to go so far as to call it a fur kini, but a modular costume design, it's like, okay, more flexibility, more breathability, people aren't dripping in sweat.

[55:59] Ethan: But practical fur effects.

[56:01] Andrew DeWolf: Practic practical fur costumes. I liked it.

[56:04] Ethan: Practical fur technology.

[56:05] Andrew DeWolf: Practical fur technology.

[56:07] Ethan: Digital, digital fur technologies.

[56:08] Andrew DeWolf: Digital fur technology, exactly. But no. This was the moment in the show where I realized that this musical has a butthole clench factor. Because this was when everybody's swinging around, and in my head, I'm just like, fuck, they're gonna slam into each other, just gonna like completely clobber each other. We're gonna watch somebody unconscious swinging back and forth gently.

[56:28] Jess McNally: Spider-Man time.

[56:28] Ethan: There's one start off the dark.

[56:30] Andrew DeWolf: There's one part where Kid Tarzan is at the very front of the stage, and they're he's he's flanked by like three people, and they're doing these like capellera kicks, and like the number of times they almost just clock this kid in the face, just had me like curled up in the fetal position. I was just like, oh my god, I'm just I'm watching this kid just go into the audience, he's gonna get slammed.

[56:51] Ethan: So yeah, this whole thing is like very acrobatic. Wasn't expecting Cirque de Soleil, but that that was when I was like, okay, for the rest of this show, I'm gonna be sitting here freaking out that someone's gonna get hurt.

[57:01] Jess McNally: Don't watch Starlight Express, because that's how I felt during that.

[57:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[57:05] Jess McNally: Oh god.

[57:06] Andrew DeWolf: When they're going on that little bridge.

[57:08] Jess McNally: Well, they're like 50 feet in the air on their stage, and like by seconds that bridge comes down, and if they aren't, they're just gonna fall.

[57:16] Andrew DeWolf: It's terrifying.

[57:18] Jess McNally: Oh, and it's not even worth watching either.

[57:20] Andrew DeWolf: It's like, oh lord.

[57:21] Jess McNally: This had more emotional value than Starlight Express.

[57:24] Ethan: So I mean, they gave uh Turk a song and they gave Kershank a song.

[57:29] Jess McNally: Uh Kerch Kershank.

[57:32] Andrew DeWolf: How do you pronounce this?

[57:33] Jess McNally: Kerchik.

[57:34] Ethan: Kerchek.

[57:36] Jess McNally: Let's talk about Kerchink's song.

[57:37] Andrew DeWolf: Kirch.

[57:38] Jess McNally: Please.

[57:38] Ethan: Kurchiga.

[57:39] Andrew DeWolf: I don't even know.

[57:40] Jess McNally: What is the thing the guy in cars says?

[57:43] Andrew DeWolf: He says kachiga.

[57:45] Jess McNally: He's catching a lot of things.

[57:47] Andrew DeWolf: The villains.

[57:48] Jess McNally: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[57:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the villain says kachiga, right?

[57:50] Jess McNally: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[57:50] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's it's kachal. My brain just immediately went to Skadoosh.

[57:54] Jess McNally: Skiddies.

[57:55] Andrew DeWolf: Too much too many microplastics in my brain.

[57:58] Jess McNally: Um, does anyone remember any of the new songs? Like, we could basically squeeze him into this like moment where, like, no other way, boring. We get Kerchek's. This doesn't paint anything. It doesn't paint regret, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't really colour his past. It's just I'm stern and things go my way.

[58:16] Ethan: Yeah, it was super weird.

[58:17] Jess McNally: No turning back. What's done is done. I have seen what they can do. He can't be saved by you, by me. It's too late.

[58:28] Andrew DeWolf: No. I won't let you do this. How can you think?

[58:31] Jess McNally: No more fighting. I'll be awaited. I'll stand my ground. Don't tear. Defy me. I know his kind. I know the truth. I will protect us.

[58:43] Ethan: These are the ones that I revisited where I'm like, it feels like I'm missing something. Like they're just not. Like, this is supposed to be the avenue where we're learning stuff. And I didn't feel like I was learning anything. Like the Turk song with "Who Better Than Me?" It's like, okay, so there's like a mentor relationship between Turk and Tarzan now. It kind of. And we learned about pendulation, which is sort of strange. And then Kerchak gets his own number, and I thought it was really strange because we have like Turk gets his number, Kerchak gets his number, Kala has a number. Tarzan's the only person who hasn't sung yet. Why have why didn't we lead with Tarzan?

[59:17] Jess McNally: I think they're just trying to get over the hurdle of having young Tarzan for a good chunk of the first act. Tarzan doesn't get a song till act two.

[59:26] Ethan: Yeah, Tarzan Tarzan doesn't really have a need. Things just kind of happen at him throughout most of Act One.

[59:33] Jess McNally: I need to know. You know, I don't remember this song. I actually don't. I forget how this one goes. Like, because he gets excommuted, Kated by Kerchak. It's like him and Kala, right? They both have to leave.

[59:42] Ethan: Yeah.

[59:43] Jess McNally: And then he just doing this thing where like young Tarzan is having to like intuit, you know, just like through psychic powers that there are other people like him that aren't gorillas, you know?

[59:55] Ethan: Yeah.

[59:55] Jess McNally: And it's really strange. At least that's the vibe I got.

[59:58] Ethan: Yeah, I know I feel that. It's just not a very well-told story and not engaging at all because our character has no needs.

[1:00:04] Jess McNally: I you know, "Son of Man" was pretty fun. Because the they just dance that I mean that's it's just a dance song. There's nothing else to it.

[1:00:10] Ethan: Yep.

[1:00:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:00:12] Ethan: Oh the power to be strong, and the wisdom to be wise. All these things will come to you in time. On the journey that you're making. They'll be asked that you'll see. Something nobody told by Son of Man of Men is.

[1:00:54] Jess McNally: I mean, it's better than what they did in the movie, which was montage, lots of montage.

[1:00:58] Ethan: I had, hang on, this is the number, right?

[1:01:00] Jess McNally: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:01:01] Ethan: I wrote this down. I have one super nitpicky, like crazy massive issue that no one else cares about with this number.

[1:01:11] Jess McNally: Let's go.

[1:01:12] Ethan: Let's do it. So "Son of Man" in the movie, right, does something that's really cool. And I wish I brought it up earlier. So the there's a "Son of Man" is a transition song where he goes from kid to adult, right? I almost said kid link to adult link, but he he he grows, right? And in the m in the in the film, uh there's like the scene where he goes flanking through the or no, he's with the elephants, he slides down Tantor's trunk, Tantor throws him in in the air, he spins, and then they just like crossfade him into being a grown-up, and then he splashes in the water, right?

[1:01:40] Jess McNally: You can't do that, cut the elephants out, can't do it.

[1:01:42] Ethan: Exactly. But when that happens, the song modulates. I'm like really sure the mo the song modulates up a whole step. And it's like this really cool moment where it's like a gear shift modulation. It goes up, and you're like, oh cool, yeah, it's like new Tarzan, and it it really carries the momentum, it moves forward. That modulation still happens. I'm pretty sure it's a modulation, still happens, but it's just Turk perched on the side of the stage, just singing through the whole thing, and nothing. They just watch that moment just sail by, and I'm like, wow, this just sucked all the energy out of the number.

[1:02:12] Jess McNally: True. I also want to bring up that it's weird that Turk is singing the song because he doesn't know or what a man is.

[1:02:19] Ethan: See, see you know, see if Tantor was here, Tantor could get to Pirano Wikipedia, and he wouldn't know what man was.

[1:02:25] Jess McNally: Alright.

[1:02:26] Ethan: Nobody is supposed to know what a man is.

[1:02:28] Jess McNally: This is Tantor Erasure.

[1:02:30] Ethan: Kurt Kirchek, right?

[1:02:31] Jess McNally: Kerchek is the only one that knows about the men.

[1:02:33] Ethan: Kerchek knows about humans, he's got Wikipedia.

[1:02:36] Jess McNally: Because he's got Wikipedia.

[1:02:37] Ethan: He has a feet because he's a weirdo, but we don't go into that in the story much.

[1:02:42] Jess McNally: Yeah, so "Son of Man" happens. Basically, none of the none of the new songs are any good, and the other songs are just like they don't even do it well.

[1:02:50] Ethan: No, no, right after right after "Son of Man," there's a love song between Kala and Kerchek for no reason. That was about how great he is not needed, not needed it at all.

[1:03:01] Jess McNally: I see why they did it. I see. I see the logic to it. Because you want Kala to be able to sing something when Kerchek dies. I get the logic to it.

[1:03:09] Ethan: That makes yeah, that does make sense, but it just it's like, okay, so like I have this written down at this point. Kirchak sung more than Tarzan.

[1:03:14] Jess McNally: Yep.

[1:03:15] Ethan: You know, like I think by the end of the show, that's still the case. Tarzan barely has anything. People sing about him, but they sing at him, they sing to him, they sing about him, but like he doesn't. It's just he's like an empty vessel. There's like nothing there.

[1:03:29] Jess McNally: He's like I mean, these songs are written to be sung at Tarzan, not by Tarzan. That was the original intent in the movie. I wish Tarzan's not supposed to sing these.

[1:03:40] Ethan: Well, that's I saw a YouTube video that told me the movie was a flop because of this. But like because Tarzan isn't supposed to sing. But that's the that's the frustrating part is like if you're gonna sit here and rework the numbers, you can literally play the pronoun game, right?

[1:03:52] Jess McNally: Yeah.

[1:03:52] Ethan: You know, you could instead of like son of man, have it be like in teaching you will learn, in learning you will teach. You could have him standing on stage singing son of man in teaching, I will learn, in learning, I will teach. Have it be him and enthusiastic about living his life with the gorillas. You know, you could you could you could do that, you have that power, and they just didn't.

[1:04:10] Jess McNally: I think we should just cut kid Tarzan to out, to be honest.

[1:04:13] Ethan: Really? You're now you're trying to cut like half the show. What would you replace it with? Because that's a lot to cut.

[1:04:19] Jess McNally: Um, you start with baby Tarzan, and then we just go to adult Tarzan, and then we just change up the like still get the same beats, the banishment, and then have him be brought back in with the the the cheetah thing.

[1:04:32] Ethan: So have like have like the beginning of act one is basically like it's like the establishing number is Kala finds baby Tarzan, Tarzan is immediately an adult. Like you have baby Tarzan, kid Tarzan at some point in the middle of the number, then adult Tarzan.

[1:04:45] Ethan: Then it's like you're an adult now, Tarzan, you have to go off and live by yourself, you can't live here, you're too dangerous.

[1:04:50] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, that's it.

[1:04:51] Ethan: And then all of Act One is him and Turk working together, kill the cat, get to come back to the jungle, the gorilla encampment. They get to be part of the gorilla family.

[1:05:01] Ethan: Then Jane shows up and she fucks everything up. End of act one.

[1:05:04] ANDREW RETURNS: I mean, let's frame this as too many stories. So we get act one, Tarzan introduced, dicked out of his place that he did known as family for his entire life. Then he's like I need to live with my buddy, my stoner buddy Turk, and we're gonna be lazy people, you know, kind of like the Hakuna Matata section of The Lion King.

[1:05:23] ANDREW RETURNS: And then he hears his mother and father are in danger. They're about to be attacked, like the people that he was betrayed by, he needs to return and take care of them. And then his relationship with Kerchek is like all good. Like he's welcome back into the clan and it's good. And he gets what he wanted in act one, and then the end of act one, we see the boat come in, Jane and her parents come in, and he finally sees oh, oh shit, and that's where our act one cliffhanger is.

[1:05:47] Ethan: Like that changes his entire world, because his want for act one was I want to be accepted by the gorillas, and then his want for act two is I want to figure out who these people are. Maybe that's where I'm supposed to belong. So it changed like there's two complete arcs in act one and act two that could work.

[1:06:03] Ethan: What if there was like a permanent white people encampment, right? Like a science camp there that's like a colony of some sort?

[1:06:13] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, there you go.

[1:06:15] Ethan: But no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But Kerchek's Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Perfect.

[1:06:15] ANDREW RETURNS: No, no, no, but like this is our Thanksgiving episode. But Kerchek gets freaked out because he has experience with that group of people, so he leaves. That's where his trauma comes from. And then Jane and her dad are just the newest people off the boat, and so they go into the rainforest, not believing that it's dangerous, there's some other problem, and then her and Tarzan bump into each other.

[1:06:41] Ethan: Yeah.

[1:06:42] ANDREW RETURNS: Um, once again, Tarzan sees the trouble, and he saves her. How has Tarzan never found this colony before?

[1:06:49] Ethan: Yeah, I mean, that would be my next question. I feel like it should be a colony that's getting set up here.

[1:06:54] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, where Tarzan's been like. I think we're desperately trying to salvage a story that just doesn't work and probably shouldn't be made.

[1:07:04] Ethan: It's yeah, you can see I thought you were looking on the bright side, Andrew. I thought you loved this show based on your first statements.

[1:07:12] ANDREW RETURNS: I do. It's it's a horrifically awkward and sexual and just it's full of weird and awkward tension between the show and myself, not between any of the characters or stuff, but like you know, missed you so fucking much.

[1:07:29] Ethan: I think that's what I liked about it, is just it's so bizarre and like why did they do this? You know? And then there's small moments where there's like, damn, they made a waterfall out of a blanket. That's kind of neat, I guess.

[1:07:42] Ethan: What is it? It's like in Strangers Like Me where they bring like the whole canopy down to sort of like represent them going to the top of the trees, and there's like a whole thing that they lower it. I thought that looked like fucking awesome. I thought that looked really cool.

[1:07:55] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, and then they followed it up with like nothing, you know, just the bring back the green.

[1:08:00] Ethan: The green blob, as Ben Brantley called it.

[1:08:02] ANDREW RETURNS: The green blob. I think that's what's so frustrating about the show, and like what makes it so awkward is that there's like really really cool stuff that's that like punctuates a whole lot of nothing. So when nothing's happening, you're like, show I can see what you can do. And if you had more time and money, I could see what you'd be capable of doing. But I'm just I'm watching a kid in a diaper walk around the stage. Like, you need to give me more.

[1:08:22] Ethan: I love that I love that one of the only props they have is just like Turk's chair.

[1:08:27] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah.

[1:08:27] Ethan: It's just there's just like a thing hanging there, and every time Turk shows up, he's sitting in the chair, and it's like, what? Like what? Why why is this here?

[1:08:37] ANDREW RETURNS: Okay. You know what, guys? I got a question for y'all. What is our overall thoughts and our cheese rating?

[1:08:43] Ethan: Um, Ethan, I'm gonna let you go first. You know how this you this isn't your first rodeo. I think this is like your third or fourth.

[1:08:49] Ethan: I do, and I I put thought into it. I I put thought into it, and I know exactly what I'm gonna give it. And it's gonna sound weird, but trust me. I'm rating this hamburger.

[1:08:57] Ethan: When you ordered a cheeseburger.

[1:08:58] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh.

[1:08:59] Ethan: Because what you got didn't have cheese on it, and you wanted cheese.

[1:09:02] ANDREW RETURNS: Ooh.

[1:09:03] Ethan: That's the saddest cheese rating we've gotten in a long time.

[1:09:05] ANDREW RETURNS: That actually made me real real bummed. Damn. That's a good one, Ethan. I liked it.

[1:09:09] ANDREW RETURNS: Alright, um, yeah, I mean, this this show is very uh weird, and honestly, I don't think it's worth seeking out. I would just watch the movie if you want to see Tarzan. And honestly, the movie isn't that great either, so probably just watch something else just entirely. Watch Ethan's uh video on Tarzan.

[1:09:28] Ethan: The movie's good. I like the movie. It's just got one weird thing about it that I couldn't get over.

[1:09:33] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, I don't know. The movie's like fine. It's it's it's a lot of fun.

[1:09:38] Ethan: 2001.

[1:09:39] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, I mean it is, but like Treasure Planet came out, and like I'm over it, you know.

[1:09:43] Ethan: Did you know that they use the same kind of technology, the same kind of 3D mapping?

[1:09:47] ANDREW RETURNS: That makes sense.

[1:09:47] Ethan: They they did it better though, and like if they don't even have any awkward uh like Phil Collins songs in that one. I'm gonna give it uh Limburger, because uh they say it smells like feet.

[1:10:01] Ethan: So we have a hamburger and Limburger. There's a lot of burgers tonight. Nice.

[1:10:05] ANDREW RETURNS: Um, Bree, what do you think of our discussion? Your cheese rating of that.

[1:10:09] Brianna Jones: It was good until Andrew took my cheese rating.

[1:10:15] ANDREW RETURNS: Uh you gotta think of one, Bree.

[1:10:18] Brianna Jones: Go with another stinky cheese, which is a stinking bishop. Because Tarzan is stinky. That's the joke.

[1:10:23] Ethan: That's the joke.

[1:10:26] Brianna Jones: He smells bad.

[1:10:28] ANDREW RETURNS: He smells bad.

[1:10:30] Brianna Jones: I don't know. In in Son of Man, he swims. Never mind.

[1:10:34] ANDREW RETURNS: That's like river water. It's gonna make things worse.

[1:10:36] Brianna Jones: Yeah.

[1:10:41] Brianna Jones: Um, I did not like this show. It is not the worst show. I don't even think it's the worst Disney musical. Um I like the better uh than Aristocats Jr., I guess.

[1:10:50] ANDREW RETURNS: I want Aristocats Jr.

[1:10:52] Brianna Jones: is shorter. I want to see this with more time and money.

[1:10:54] ANDREW RETURNS: Tarz Katz Jr. is like a half an hour long.

[1:10:58] Brianna Jones: I wanna. I want to see this with more time and more money and a reworked act one. I want I wanna I want to see this get revisited. This is like an incomplete, you know?

[1:11:06] Ethan: Yes.

[1:11:06] Brianna Jones: Like I can't give it an F. This is an incomplete. This is a F incomplete.

[1:11:10] ANDREW RETURNS: This will never be revisited.

[1:11:11] Brianna Jones: I know that's it's just not going to happen. But I can dream.

[1:11:14] Ethan: Is anyone nostalgic for Tarzan?

[1:11:16] Brianna Jones: It's almost like there could be a psychological reasons why no one really cares.

[1:11:20] Ethan: I mean, I hear they remade it, um, but David Yates a few years ago, and nobody even cared that they remade it. There just might be an emotional detachment from Tarzan as a musical property, and I don't quite know what that might be.

[1:11:32] Brianna Jones: Um, but my cheese rating is shredded cheese because of the meme I just sent you all in the chat.

[1:11:39] Ethan: Okay, no, I'm traumatized by clicking on links because you once you once showed me some Muppets, and I'm not I'm I'm still not comfortable.

[1:11:51] Brianna Jones: Just look up shredded cheese, Tarzan, and you guys are welcome.

[1:11:56] Ethan: Very nice.

[1:11:57] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh my god, it's gonna be like desktop background, that's right.

[1:12:03] Brianna Jones: Uh the Tars himself.

[1:12:05] Ethan: Oh my god.

[1:12:07] ANDREW RETURNS: Tarzan branded shredded cheese.

[1:12:09] Brianna Jones: There you go. Ethan, thank you so much for joining us and for your patience. Um for those of you who don't know behind the scenes issues. Ethan rescheduled with us many, many times. And we are very grateful.

[1:12:20] Ethan: I love coming on the show. Um anytime you want to come back, I know we have plans for something that is allegedly coming to Disney Plus one day, and we're just gonna fast track it when it gets there.

[1:12:29] ANDREW RETURNS: Yeah, no, we've been we've been in talks about uh this super special secret thing since what, February?

[1:12:34] Ethan: Yeah, it's been a while. Like it's been like we've had two episodes since the our original plan.

[1:12:41] ANDREW RETURNS: They promised us. Okay, I'm still I'm I still look it up, just like when is this thing happening?

[1:12:44] Ethan: Yeah, I I goddamn Rona, maybe? I don't know.

[1:12:48] ANDREW RETURNS: Maybe maybe maybe Hamilton didn't make a shit zillion dollars the way they wanted it to.

[1:12:53] Ethan: No.

[1:12:54] ANDREW RETURNS: Who knows?

[1:12:55] Ethan: Hamilton just prints money.

[1:12:57] ANDREW RETURNS: It's super popular.

[1:12:58] Ethan: Is it though? Is it uh is are people still going out to see Hamilton and paying a thousand bucks per seat?

[1:13:03] ANDREW RETURNS: I don't know. Is Boomer Ethan totally not on the on on the level?

[1:13:07] Ethan: I don't know.

[1:13:08] Ethan: Hamilton's been cancelled as far as I'm aware.

[1:13:10] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh really?

[1:13:11] Ethan: I thought on Twitter on Twitter.

[1:13:13] ANDREW RETURNS: Uh wait, what kind of canceled? Like they're not doing shows anymore or the other kind of canceled?

[1:13:16] Ethan: No. And the other kind.

[1:13:18] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh because you know, it it it puts colonizers in a really, really positive spot, which you know, I don't want a Disney shows doing either.

[1:13:27] Brianna Jones: Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

[1:13:29] ANDREW RETURNS: Happy Thanksgiving. This is literally our Thanksgiving episode. I think it goes up either on Thanksgiving or the day before.

[1:13:35] Jess McNally: I think I'll post it early because what are you all thankful for?

[1:13:38] Ethan: I am thankful for Ethan joining us. Thank you, Ethan, for joining us.

[1:13:40] Jess McNally: I'm thankful for everyone in this call, and I love you all so much. Ethan, promote your wonderful stuff. But it's not like the people don't already know about it.

[1:13:46] Ethan: I make YouTube videos on YouTube.com. And I have a Twitter. And I really like making nachos.

[1:13:54] Jess McNally: I didn't know what to say, I'm sorry.

[1:13:55] ANDREW RETURNS: Hell yeah. Nachos are great. Um I I I love your content. Your cats video is one of the best videos of all time.

[1:14:04] Ethan: Um I'm very grateful for you. A lot of stress went into that. Just so much stress.

[1:14:08] Jess McNally: I look at the thumbnail and I twitch. I'm so sorry. Um I both Bree and I are very thankful Andrew is back, and I feel like Ethan is, and so is the entire audience.

[1:14:17] Ethan: I'm very, very happy. The show is not the show without you, and I feel like Ethan agrees with you.

[1:14:22] Ethan: Absolutely.

[1:14:22] Jess McNally: We did. Yeah.

[1:14:24] Ethan: You have pretty big shoes I gotta fill, because I don't know how to be funny or talk about musical theater.

[1:14:30] ANDREW RETURNS: So they're smelly shoes, too. I'll tell you this. They're so happy you're talking about. They've got room for calluses.

[1:14:36] Jess McNally: I mean, I did a lot of stuff while you were gone to try to fill the void.

[1:14:40] ANDREW RETURNS: It is never the same.

[1:14:42] Jess McNally: It is not the right vibe ever.

[1:14:44] ANDREW RETURNS: I'm sorry, guys. I was uh in the I was in the jungle sliding down trees on my beans. So I'm they're callous like shoes.

[1:14:54] Jess McNally: The good news is I don't have to wear shoes anymore. You know who also doesn't have to wear shoes either, Andrew?

[1:14:59] ANDREW RETURNS: Who's that?

[1:14:59] Jess McNally: Our wonderful patrons. Thank you guys for listening. We're on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. We're on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese. We have a patron only podcast called Patreon with Cheese where me and Liz Eston talk about TV shows. Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com.

[1:15:15] Jess McNally: Our title card is created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Ghost Hunderson Love at Jolene Casco. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. Thank you so much, Juliet. And we have something special coming up with Juliet um in December, which is gonna be a lot of fun. I'm excited about that.

[1:15:28] Brianna Jones: This show is produced and edited, and basically it keeps afloat by the wonderful, the incredible, my favorite person in the world aside from Andrew and Ethan. Brianna Jones!

[1:15:42] Jess McNally: I love you so much, Brianna. Thank you for keeping the show going. Um our themes were created by the amazing Robin Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you, Robin, for writing all those music themes for us.

[1:15:52] Jess McNally: Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for talking about how smelly and fetishy the Tarzan musical is. Some of some of the people listening are into that, so don't apply. It's okay.

[1:16:03] ANDREW RETURNS: Oh yeah. It's okay. You can be into whatever you want. This is the internet. Go for it. Jerk off the Tarzan. I don't care. Just don't do it while you're at the theater. Don't want to get a Pee-wee Herman pulled on you.

[1:16:17] Jess McNally: Anything else we have left to say, guys?

[1:16:19] Ethan: What more is there to say, guess?

[1:16:22] All: Happy Thanksgiving!

[1:16:24] ANDREW RETURNS: Don't get a Pee-wee Herman pulled on you.

[1:16:29] Jess McNally: Show this one to the family. Have your mom come listen.

[1:16:34] ANDREW RETURNS: You know what? This is the perfect one right after Thanksgiving dinner to fly on, because it's like, oh, my cheesy boys are back, and then suddenly we're talking about feet fetishes and grandma friendly.

[1:16:44] Brianna Jones: Grandma, wake up. You have to listen to my podcast. Gotta hear about how Hum Tarzan looks.

[1:16:50] Ethan: It's got Ethan from Sideways. He's so smart. He always talked about like the best music theory stuff.

[1:16:57] ANDREW RETURNS: He's the guy that makes the YouTube about the Tarzan.

[1:17:00] Ethan: I make the YouTube. They told me that Tarzan was a flop because of the music, but I like it anyway.

[1:17:07] ANDREW RETURNS: I like it anyways.

[1:17:08] Jess McNally: That video is so bad because someone had an opinion different than mine.

[1:17:12] Ethan: The worst part about that one is when you said Tarzan was good.

[1:17:15] Jess McNally: On that note, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:17:33] ♪ Musical number: "Son of Man" — performed by Andrew DeWolf ♪