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[0:05] Jess Milburn: Hi, I'm Jess Milburn.

[0:07] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:08] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones.

[0:14] Brianna Jones: We were like computers rebooting right there.

[0:16] Jess Milburn: It was great. And you guys, we have a super special guest.

[0:20] Andrew DeWolf: I'm like so excited about our guest today.

[0:22] Brianna Jones: Yeah, he's so excited that your brain just stopped working for a second.

[0:25] Jess Milburn: No, literally, you want to know what happened? She said hi instead of hello.

[0:30] Andrew DeWolf: And it threw him off.

[0:32] Jess Milburn: It threw him off. But please, our very special guest, please join me in welcoming and moving past that awkward intro. Please welcome content creator, playwright, actress, and unhinged TikTok star of the ages, Joan Milburn!

[0:49] Joan Milburn: Hello, hello. I'm so excited to be here.

[0:52] Jess Milburn: So, Joan, like once again, like in case people don't know you just from your voice, please tell them like who you are.

[1:00] Joan Milburn: Okie dokie. I am Joan Milburn. I am currently living in New York City, and I'm an actor. I'm a playwright, and I am also a slightly unhinged TikTok comedian with absolutely no niche whatsoever, just doing whatever I think is funny and having a grand old time doing it.

[1:20] Jess Milburn: Hell yeah. I've been a fan of yours for a long time, and I noticed a lot of theater crossover with you, which is fantastic. Like your acting performances go from like film to stage and all that. So when I reached out, you had an answer right away of what you wanted to cover. And what's your history with this performance that I'm vague talking about?

[1:42] Joan Milburn: So what we're talking about tonight is David Byrne's American Utopia.

[1:47] Jess Milburn: Yeah.

[1:48] Joan Milburn: And I feel like I have a very interesting relationship with this piece. First and foremost, I've actually never seen it in person, but they filmed the Broadway production. It was a Spike Lee joint, and they streamed it on HBO. And after that, I've probably seen it about five or six times at this point. But it's a musical that I feel like addresses a lot of questions that I have as an actress in theater. Questions of accessibility, streaming, what it means to perform as an ensemble. And yeah, I've been hooked on it for about three months now. I listen to it every single day. And I'm hoping to catch it before it leaves. I learned that it is closing on April 3rd.

[2:36] Jess Milburn: Ooh, I think it might have closed by the time this episode posts.

[2:39] Joan Milburn: Now that I'm doing like a little bit of math. So y'all might have missed your chance to see this.

[2:43] Jess Milburn: Um, Twitter though.

[2:48] Joan Milburn: Yeah, we can post on Twitter. Like, go see the show. Um, but while we're talking about it, American Utopia, cue the music, Bri!

[2:55] Brianna Jones: Oh.

[3:06] Joan Milburn: Shout some battle from Mount Report. When the door right through American Utopia was directed by Spike Lee, book music and lyrics by David Byrne, and premiered on Broadway at the Hudson Theater in previews October 4th, 2019, and officially on October 20th, closing on February 16, 2020. It was set to return to the Hudson for another limited engagement in September of 2020, but as we now say a lot on the show, was delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic. A new six-month run started September 17th, 2021, and goes through the St. James Theater until April 3rd of 2022.

[4:01] Jess Milburn: Sadly enough. Playbill describes the plot of it as the theatrical concert includes songs from David Byrne's American Utopia, along with songs from The Talking Heads and his solo careers, which is a terrible, terrible headline from Playbill. Um, Joan, when did you first like was it mid-pandemic when you started taking a look at this? And do you have a history of David Byrne and like his Talking Heads work and Stop Making Sense and all that?

[4:26] Joan Milburn: Yeah, so I am a long time David Byrne and Talking Heads fan. I grew up listening to them because of my parents. And it was exactly that during mid-pandemic. I stumbled across it. And I remember when I first saw it being posted on Playbill, Broadway.com, I was like, what is this? Why are all of these people wearing like gray suits and they're barefoot? And my interest was certainly piqued. And so I started looking at the music and realized that it was this interesting mixture of old Talking Heads songs as well as music that David Byrne has independently produced, and then some of his songs that he did with St. Vincent a couple years ago. And it seemed to be this really interesting culmination that was decades in the making.

And one thing that really made me be like, I have to see this play is actually the way that David Byrne describes it himself. And I saved it so that I could not misquote it, but it is the question: what if we could eliminate everything from the stage except the stuff we care about the most? Without cables or wires, what would be left? Well, it would be us and you, and that's what the show is. And I think that is the most perfect description of American Utopia because there is pretty much no set, no real blocking, it's mainly movement, and it's this ensemble of people of all ages, backgrounds, and they come together for this concert musical. But what astounded me when I first saw it was that it has such a clear through line, even though it doesn't, but it does, and it was effortless and stunning.

[6:17] Jess Milburn: Um, I completely agree. I just watched it for the first time today. I'm a big fan of David Byrne in like an offset way. Like I loved Stop Making Sense, but I love it in a Jonathan Demme appreciation sort of way rather than a Talking Heads appreciation. And I love True Stories. That is like one of my favorite movies, and it's so goofy. Um, so this was just a good, strangely optimistic wash for me. Um, but Andrew, what is your history with David Byrne?

[6:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I really like Talking Heads, and I have for a very long time. Um, I've never seen any of the like movies or performances or anything like that. I have seen his interview where he talks about why he wears the large suit and it's to make his head look small, which I thought was very funny. Um, but I've never actually seen anything beyond that. But honestly, this was really good. I really love the costumes that they like the suits with the bare feet is amazing. Um, the instrumentation is phenomenal, and I think it does have a strong through line, despite it not really being like a musical, if that makes any sense. And I really like that.

[7:30] Jess Milburn: Yeah, I agree. When I say the name Alex Timbers, does that ring a bell to you, Andrew? Or I'm sure you know it, Joan.

[7:34] Joan Milburn: Um, he um, uh it's like a director or something.

[7:41] Jess Milburn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in the right territory. Um, he directed some very high-class shows like Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, Beetlejuice, um, Moulin Rouge, and Hello, Dolly! on Broadway, and on top of all that, Rocky, but we're just gonna ignore that one.

[7:59] Andrew DeWolf: That's fine.

[7:59] Jess Milburn: That's fair. One of the most brave and interesting theatrical directors currently working, and every time he does a show, even when I don't particularly like it, visually and execution-wise, it's always impressive. Um, so I was really surprised halfway through when I was like just researching while watching, I was like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Even if it's a middle-of-the-road show, Alex Timbers is gonna find some way to make it weird and theatrical in ways I didn't expect. Um, so what is the through line of the show? Do you think, Joan? Is there a theme um between all of these different sporadic numbers?

[8:35] Joan Milburn: I think it all ties back into this original question: what does it mean to make a show where it's just us, it's what matters the most, and that's the artists that are creating the piece, and then also the audience that's watching it. And I also think that David Byrne did a really wonderful thing of finding ways to loop in social justice issues, um, things that are happening in current events. And I also know that he has been updating the show as well through the pandemic, through the civil rights movement, everything that we've been seeing in the last couple of years. And I think the through line for me is what it means to come together as artists with our audience, what it means to build community through art, and to also appreciate art and music from the past while still innovating in the future. And I also love that they made the decision to stream it because one thing that I was struggling a lot with during the pandemic was that theater just really shut down.

[9:44] Jess Milburn: Yeah.

[9:45] Joan Milburn: And there's always been this grand hesitation to put live streams of musicals out. We're starting to see it a lot more, but I love that that accessibility with audiences around the world was a goal from the beginning. And I think you can also see that in the work itself.

[10:02] Jess Milburn: I mean, I completely agree. And this was it came out during the pandemic when we're all like, is theater ever gonna reopen and all that? And it drew a lot of comparisons between the other big musical that came out during the pandemic, um, Hamilton. I don't know if anyone's ever heard of it. It's a kind of well-known underground show. Um, but I think this is a much more effective film, so to say, while still embracing its theatricality where Hamilton just feels like, here's four shots of the stage, enjoy it. I really did not like that Hamilton pro shot. So I was very impressed that this felt cinematic while with its theatrical nature.

[10:41] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but a lot of other people did not like that.

[10:41] Jess Milburn: So Spike Lee, I believe he also famously directed Passing Strange when that was um pro shot. So he does a lot of these. Um, and I think this is a labor of love, and it wouldn't have been my first thought. Um, I maybe someone who knows more about the Talking Heads would be like, Oh yeah, Spike Lee, that lines up perfectly. Um, but for when I heard that, I was like, that feels strange to me, but watching it, um, his fingerprints are all over this, and I read a lot of reviews where it's like, oh, I don't see the Spike Lee of it all, and I'm like, what are you talking about? It's all Spike Lee is like one of the most iconic visual styles ever, and you can't just not have that here.

[11:25] Joan Milburn: I really think that this as a film is one of the most effective pro shot stagings I've ever seen.

[11:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um, what's the however?

[11:38] Jess Milburn: I'm curious as to what the however is.

[11:40] Andrew DeWolf: I am too because I thought it was really well shot. I really like the camera angles they were using and the close-ups and a lot of cool stuff you don't usually see.

[11:48] Jess Milburn: Oh, yeah, but there is an issue I have discovered in this one that I have never had an issue with in another pro shot concert film. I tend to find myself perusing the audience a lot more here because they do show many shots where you can blatantly see like the individuals in the audience, the 40-year-old soccer moms dancing, and I just get lost in the sea of humans. Like, what are they up to?

[12:11] Brianna Jones: Jess is literally judging the audience.

[12:15] Jess Milburn: I think that's his issue with the show.

[12:18] Andrew DeWolf: It breaks the fourth wall where I'm just like, what are they up to?

[12:21] Jess Milburn: Oh no. All of these 40-year-olds like this band from the 80s. Who would have thought? Like, I see, like, I've been to this theater before, and I see these women in the front row standing up and dancing. And I was like, if I'm in the second row just trying to enjoy the evening, I would have been pissed off.

[12:40] Joan Milburn: Well, it's a Talking Heads concert in some ways. It's on Broadway. You'd expect people to have a different kind of vibe.

[12:46] Jess Milburn: What, we just want more class from Broadway? Don't enjoy the show. You paid money for these things.

[12:54] Joan Milburn: One of my favorite moments from the stream, which I believe is still on HBO, but is literally they finish the introductory song and they get a standing ovation immediately.

[13:05] Jess Milburn: Yes.

[13:06] Joan Milburn: And David Byrne is kind of sitting there and is like, yep. And then after a beat, he goes, you know, there's more. Just kind of quiets everyone because it did attract a huge demographic of people, old Talking Heads fans, general Broadway fans, uh people who knew his work through St. Vincent, all of that stuff. And so yeah, it's an eclectic group, and I love watching it. I love when he gets them involved. Like one of I think my favorite section in the entire pro shot is when he breaks down voting and how very few people voted in the last election, and how even fewer people voted in local elections, and how just one woman just starts screaming and standing up for no reason and he plays it off so brilliantly.

I loved when he gets the audience involved. I like that he knows the audience too. I think there was one story he tells where he mentions Talking Heads and it immediately gets a huge cheer, and he's like, Yeah, well, we weren't making very much money back then, so he's a charming guy, and I found myself wanting more of him just talking to me. Like, I love the songs, I love the numbers, the ensemble, the percussionist, everyone is so flipping talented. But when he's just talking to me about something he actually cares about or telling a story, I found myself like so engaged.

[14:23] Joan Milburn: And I love that his character was himself as an artist. He was never at any point trying to be anything that he wasn't. And I think that's true for the entire ensemble. And I think that this piece really does lend itself to inviting the audience in. The closest that I ever got to seeing American Utopia live was actually when I was a seat filler at the Tony Awards in 2025.

[14:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, the one where we got blackout drunk during it.

[14:57] Joan Milburn: I remember.

[14:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[14:59] Joan Milburn: You remember? I was there filling seats. And immediately after they started, they just encouraged everyone to stand up and dance and feel joyful. And you can see that on the telecast footage as well. But I remember thinking that that was so stark, especially because being in the theater of the Tony Awards, everyone is so excited, but there's also kind of a nervous tension. There's a formality to it that I think David Byrne could feel, and he's like, Nope, that's not what this show is. Dance with us. And I loved it. And I did get up and dance.

[15:34] Andrew DeWolf: And was that for the Jessica? They want you to dance. Was that for the first half of the Tonies, or was it the second half? Was it the Audra McDonald half, or was it the Leslie Odom half?

[15:44] Joan Milburn: I believe it was the Audra McDonald's half.

[15:49] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Don't quote me on that. It's hard for me to tell because we were in the same theater the entire time, at least the group that I was in. But I can't remember. But both Audra and Leslie Odom Jr. were incredible hosts.

[16:06] Joan Milburn: But yeah. I'll have to come back to that.

[16:09] Andrew DeWolf: No, no worries. I was just curious, like, because I remember it was fairly early on in one of them. I just don't remember which one. And I remember it coming on, and Andrew's just like, I like Talking Heads.

[16:22] Andrew DeWolf: I think I had a bit to drink.

[16:25] Joan Milburn: Yeah, that was that's I do like Talking Heads.

[16:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah. Um that has been consistent. Um I was shocked at how sincere this was. Like, I don't see a lot of productions like this where they get so I won't don't want to say political because that makes it almost sound like a negative connotation. Sounds cynical in that way. It's not though. It's sincere. It's like so false to the wall sincere in like, come on, we gotta de we gotta be better, guys. Optimistic is probably one of the best words to describe it as.

[16:57] Joan Milburn: And on top of that, every one of the ensemble members I fell in love with in a different moment. Um they really get their time to shine. And I think I remember him talking with Spike Lee about the choice in costuming, where he kind of wants them all to fall in uniformity when they're together, but as soon as you step one out in front of everyone else, um, they stand out. Um there's also some lighting tricks that I thought were so impressive, and I'm shocked that no other Broadway show or show in general has figured out.

[17:26] Joan Milburn: So they have little sensor bars underneath their suits so that the lights will always know where to point at them. So they can dance wherever they want, improvise, and the spotlight will always follow them. And I'm like, that's the coolest fucking thing I've ever heard.

[17:39] Andrew DeWolf: That is kind of sick. And more shows need to implement that. And I don't know, Joan, you're probably in that world a little bit more than we are. Like, do you know of any show that does things like that?

[17:51] Joan Milburn: I had actually never heard of that being utilized before American Utopia. And kind of like you, Jess, like I was surprised that that is technology that we have that we're not utilizing more. Um, but I also imagine a degree of that was David Byrne's dedication with this piece to not be wired up to not have a set, to really have this freedom to move about the space and to interact with each other on a very, I don't not impulsive, but I feel like they were never forcing anything to be the same night after night.

[18:29] Joan Milburn: They had their movements, but if there was a moment of chemistry that wasn't there the night before, even better. Embrace it. And I think having that technology really allowed them to do that in a really interesting way. And yeah, I also remember seeing a lot of the ensemble switch instruments periodically, and just being like, how are they doing this? Where are they going? But it was seamless. So of course, we didn't pick up when they were leaving or re-entering unless it was a grand entrance.

[19:01] Joan Milburn: But I really thought that the tech and the directing was so effortless when put together. And that is something that I'm always looking for in musical theater. We all know that's not always the case.

[19:16] Andrew DeWolf: Uh no, no, no. Um as Andrew once said recently, like the most set design he's used to seeing is like a chair and a table on a stage, and calling that a set. It's it's uh what is it, minimalist? It's Michael Greif and Rent and he's ruined Broadway forever.

[19:33] Joan Milburn: This show was actually minimalist, and like they really didn't have much, but they made a lot out of it.

[19:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[19:41] Joan Milburn: Instead of like, oh, we have no set and we're not gonna do anything with it.

[19:46] Andrew DeWolf: All right. I have to ask the very important question that we're all thinking right now. Who was your favorite ensemble member? Um, because we all had a favorite, right?

[19:58] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I like them all. Let me I like the keyboard guy, because that's the one I can most easily imagine myself as. Um, but no, they're all fantastic. I really love how took like a drum kit and gave it to like eight people, you know? And it's like it's that sounds like uh not a smart thing to do, but honestly, it's like brilliant. It's it's absolutely brilliant.

[20:32] Joan Milburn: I agree, and that's a great choice. My favorite, just because every time I saw her, there was another thing to question. It was the blonde with the tambourine. Because like she always dead-eyed the camera, she has this great face, there's a great use of her face, but also she's the only one that's not completely barefoot, and I kept wondering, oh why you why did you decide you needed the little socks?

[20:56] Joan Milburn: Why did you need the flesh-colored socks? It was a personal choice. I know, but it interested me, and I was able to pick her out in a line no matter what, because we have like a thousand close-ups of their feet throughout the show.

[21:08] Andrew DeWolf: I actually, when I saw that, I thought maybe they all had the flesh-colored socks, so I kept looking for it. Um so that's an interesting choice. Joan, do you have an answer yet?

[21:18] Joan Milburn: Yeah, so I and this is hard because I really loved all of them. And I also love that there is a moment in the show where David Byrne acknowledges that almost every single person in the ensemble is an immigrant, which was incredible to know because they all meshed so well, and they're all coming from different backgrounds just together to play this show, different musical backgrounds, different experience, um, whether it be in musicals or in just regular concert performance.

[21:50] Joan Milburn: But I really, really loved um Chris Jarmo, I believe that's how you pronounce his last name. Uh, but who was one of the movers, one of the dancers. And I also really loved Angie Swan, who uh I believe played bass and guitar, and I loved her because you could always tell that she was feeling the music that she was playing. She operated that entire show with so much joy, and I could feel it.

[22:21] Joan Milburn: And I also loved the ensemble member, and I feel so bad that I cannot remember her name, but with the bright red lipstick. Um I think that the entire ensemble really does feel unified in a way that's super effective in Mizan Sen and all that. But I really want to give my plaudits to um Annie B. Parson, um, who did the choreography.

[22:50] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I think that's a great transition we have to go into our favorite segment of the show where we compare our opinions to those of the New York theater critics when this show first came out. It's time for previews.

[23:03] Joan Milburn: It's time for previews.

[23:05] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for previews.

[23:12] Joan Milburn: All right, Breed, we have uh Ben Brantley here, which is one of the most baffling reviews, not even negative, just strange.

[23:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna read it.

[23:22] Joan Milburn: Go for it.

[23:23] Andrew DeWolf: Ben Brantley, in their review for the New York Times, wrote that won't you be his neighbor? David Byrne doesn't actually make that request in American Utopia.

[23:35] Joan Milburn: Yep.

[23:36] Andrew DeWolf: His cloud sweeping upper of a touring show, which opened on Broadway at the Hudson Theater on Sunday. Yet, when the silvery gray suit pop star poses another musical question, will you breathe with me? You may find yourself thinking of the theme song of Mr. Rogers' neighborhood.

[23:56] Joan Milburn: Ken Say saw it?

[23:58] Andrew DeWolf: No, nope, not in a little bit.

[24:00] Joan Milburn: Ben, what's going on?

[24:03] Andrew DeWolf: Is this a recent review by him?

[24:06] Joan Milburn: Yeah, this is one of his last ones before he retired.

[24:09] Andrew DeWolf: Why are we comparing David?

[24:11] Joan Milburn: Oh, he goes on for another two paragraphs.

[24:13] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, don't worry.

[24:14] Joan Milburn: I forgot you. That's half the review is comparing him to Mr. Rogers.

[24:18] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not the first person to note similarities between Fred Rogers, the Cardigan-Wearing children's television host, and Byrne.

[24:26] Joan Milburn: The new wave musician who rides into Spotlight performing Psycho Killer in the 1970s.

[24:34] Andrew DeWolf: But as I watched American Utopia, the comparison felt especially apt.

[24:49] Joan Milburn: Did it though?

[24:50] Andrew DeWolf: Rogers was a benevolent, diddy dispensing educator in civic virtue and human tolerance, who hymned the miracles of beautiful days and kindly friends while acknowledging the fallibility of us all.

[25:25] Joan Milburn: So I would argue is the David Byrne of today.

[25:29] Andrew DeWolf: He just happens to infuse his teachings with a beat that turns everyone into a spasmodic Saint Vitus dancer.

[25:38] Joan Milburn: First three paragraphs of his New York Times review.

[25:41] Andrew DeWolf: Wow. Why would you weigh so much print?

[25:47] Joan Milburn: Let me say he doesn't say much in the because we basically just skip to the bat last paragraph, because in the in-between thing, he's just listening like, and it was directed by this person and choreographed by this person, and he doesn't have another opinion until his last paragraph, which is here.

[26:03] Andrew DeWolf: Time hasn't exactly mellowed these songs, but they now sound oddly hopeful in their bewilderment when Byrne and Company perform the 1985 hit Road to Nowhere as an encore. There's the jubilant reassurance that if the journey still has no destination, at least we're all in it together.

[26:27] Joan Milburn: So let's unpack this a little bit. Um Ben Brantley was one foot out the door in his last year as the head critic of the New York Times. It's like he saw the like optimism of the show and was just like, what else is optimistic? Fred Rogers. Um let's write three paragraphs about that.

[26:51] Andrew DeWolf: Was he thinking of SEO? Like, what are people Googling right now? Fred Rogers. Might pop up.

[26:56] Joan Milburn: We did skip one little line.

[26:58] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I did.

[27:02] Joan Milburn: Yeah, so maybe maybe he was like trying to get like connections there. Maybe he had just seen the movie and was and was really he was just on his mind.

[27:12] Andrew DeWolf: I skipped it because it didn't feel relevant as the movie came out a year ago.

[27:17] Joan Milburn: But um, Joan, what is your thoughts on Ben Brantley if you have any? Because we we kind of cyberbully him here.

[27:24] Andrew DeWolf: I do not have a ton of experience with Mr. Brantley.

[27:29] Joan Milburn: Uh, and I feel like I should, but alas, I will add that to my agenda for after this podcast. But I'm wondering if you know, American Utopia is pretty unlike anything that we've seen on Broadway before. And I think that's one of the reasons that I like it so much. My favorite sphere of theater is New York development.

[27:54] Joan Milburn: And I love to see, even when you're bringing old art forms such as Talking Head songs, to Broadway, like what do you do to um revitalize it to make it new? And I'm just wondering if he was like, Well, I don't have anything to compare this to. So Fred Rogers.

[28:14] Andrew DeWolf: Ah, that that is it.

[28:16] Joan Milburn: Let's do it.

[28:17] Joan Milburn: That's a very Ben Brantley thing to do.

[28:20] Jess Milburn: And uh, I think one of our favorite things to do when we do like big episodes like Cabaret, he gave the original, like the Alan Cumming revival of Cabaret a negative review in the 90s, like a very like dismissive review.

[28:33] Joan Milburn: And then when 2014 came out, um, it seemed like he was afraid to negate himself.

[28:38] Jess Milburn: So he just talked about the couple that sat in front of him for the entire review.

[28:44] Joan Milburn: You remember this?

[28:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's the kind of guy he is.

[28:48] Joan Milburn: It's literally like if he stubs his toe on the way into the theater, that will be the first five paragraphs of the review.

[28:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, not that I like Jesse Green much more, because Jesse Green has been saying a lot of dumb shit lately that's pissing me the fuck off.

[29:03] Joan Milburn: But I don't think Ben Brantley was the one I really wanted to decide whether or not a bunch of people in a theater have jobs in the next week or not. Let me just say it like that.

[29:16] Andrew DeWolf: And we have more followers than him on Twitter, so I'm gonna wear that as a feather in my cap for the rest of my life.

[29:21] Joan Milburn: As you should, as you should.

[29:23] Andrew DeWolf: But we're the real critics.

[29:26] Jess Milburn: No, no, Andrew, we are not the real critics, but I think you know who the real critics are. It's time to dive into the insane world of letterboxed with brief views one star five star, where we play a game where we're gonna read you the actual letterbox reviews, and you and Andrew have to decide whether they're a one star or a five star.

[29:45] Brianna Jones: Um, Brie, do you want to be on Andrew's team or Joan's team?

[29:48] Joan Milburn: I want to be on Joan's team.

[29:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, girls rule, boys drool.

[29:52] Joan Milburn: Let's go, Andrew. We got this.

[29:53] Andrew DeWolf: We got this. I always win.

[29:57] Jess Milburn: Okay. All right. Is it Spike Lee or David Byrne that has the foot fetish?

[30:06] Andrew DeWolf: One star or five star.

[30:12] Joan Milburn: Oh, I was not expecting that. I feel so strangely on the fence. I'm gonna say five star.

[30:25] Andrew DeWolf: Ooh, that was a one-star.

[30:27] Joan Milburn: Ah, man. That's okay. First question. It's a tough one.

[30:31] Andrew DeWolf: That was a tough one.

[30:33] Jess Milburn: All right, Andrew, are you ready?

[30:35] Andrew DeWolf: I'm ready.

[30:38] Joan Milburn: There's so many good choices here today. Um, David Byrne voice. Did you know the babies are actually really smart?

[30:52] Andrew DeWolf: That is the show. They nailed it. Five stars.

[30:56] Joan Milburn: Five stars.

[30:57] Andrew DeWolf: That's a one star.

[31:01] Joan Milburn: This game makes no sense.

[31:02] Andrew DeWolf: Let's go.

[31:04] Joan Milburn: How do you so accurately describe the entire show and then give it a one-star?

[31:09] Andrew DeWolf: And then give it a one-star. We should be more like babies.

[31:12] Joan Milburn: I just don't agree with. I'm being honest. I'd love to shit my pants all day.

[31:17] Andrew DeWolf: Someone else has to change it though.

[31:20] Joan Milburn: No, they don't. We're all babies. We just kind of do all babies. That's what Mr. Rogers is for. Mr. Ryan Byrne is there for. He can change all of our diapers.

[31:35] Andrew DeWolf: This is how all musicals should be. No plot, just pee-paw vibing.

[31:44] Joan Milburn: First of all, I won't call him perks.

[31:48] Andrew DeWolf: Peep vibing.

[31:52] Joan Milburn: That was a one star.

[31:54] Andrew DeWolf: What? How is that a one-star?

[31:58] Joan Milburn: I think pee-paw vibing is five stars. They literally said that this is how they should all be, so they should all just be one stars.

[32:06] Andrew DeWolf: I guess so. Um, Andrew, you're ready for yours.

[32:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Miss you, mom. And instead of YOU, it's the letter U. So it's miss you, mom.

[32:17] Joan Milburn: That is a tough one because that is literally nothing to do with the show at all.

[32:22] Andrew DeWolf: Uh five stars.

[32:26] Joan Milburn: That is correct, and you are getting the first point.

[32:30] Andrew DeWolf: That was a total guess.

[32:35] Jess Milburn: Letterboxed. All right, Brie. What do you got next for Joan?

[32:39] Brianna Jones: David Byrne is a little meow meow.

[32:43] Joan Milburn: I'm sorry, there's more. Um, it was kind of girl boss of him to burn down some houses.

[32:54] Andrew DeWolf: It's not wrong. Is David Byrne able to be girl boss? Is he allowed to be a little meow meow if he is not a cat?

[33:04] Joan Milburn: Yes.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: That one I say yes. I don't know about the girl boss one, though.

[33:08] Joan Milburn: Okay, I'm gonna go three for three and say that's a five-star.

[33:11] Brianna Jones: That is a five-star.

[33:14] Joan Milburn: Thank goodness. We're on the board.

[33:19] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Andrew, you ready?

[33:21] Andrew DeWolf: I honestly I don't know anymore. Let's go let's do it though. Everyone in the audience is dancing like Scar Joe, and the marriage story meme.

[33:34] Joan Milburn: I knew that one would get Joan. I'm so happy she liked it. I can see it in my brain. It haunts me.

[33:41] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you'll never be able to watch this again without thinking about the marriage story meme.

[33:45] Joan Milburn: Or the marriage story meme. I'm gonna go one star.

[33:50] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct. Damn, I'm good.

[33:52] Brianna Jones: All right, Bree, what you got?

[33:59] Brianna Jones: I actually expected a documentary, not a fucking live concert.

[34:09] Joan Milburn: They think do they think American's a real utopia and they were just like expecting a film about it?

[34:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like it's just this documentary. Hi, I'm David Byrne, and here I am to tell you why American is great.

[34:22] Joan Milburn: Hmm. I okay. I don't know how I feel about this, friends. I'm gonna go four for four and say that's a five-star.

[34:33] Andrew DeWolf: That's a one star.

[34:35] Joan Milburn: I think they wanted to watch a documentary that. They really wanted to watch a documentary.

[34:40] Andrew DeWolf: I keep just not going with my gut because I'm like, I think that this is a trick question.

[34:46] Joan Milburn: But if there's one thing that I am learning as I get older, it's that not everything's a trick question.

[34:52] Andrew DeWolf: Sure. I would say it's like a double reverse psychology, but honestly, it's it's uh it's not. There's no psychology.

[34:59] Joan Milburn: You never know with lettered box.

[35:01] Andrew DeWolf: Really? Letterbox doesn't have psychology.

[35:04] Joan Milburn: It's like irony, but nine times over, so the point where you don't even know what it is anymore.

[35:09] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Andrew, you ready?

[35:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah. Hamilton found dead in a ditch.

[35:15] Joan Milburn: I mean, if they think this killed Hamilton, they must have liked it, right?

[35:19] Andrew DeWolf: So five stars?

[35:20] Joan Milburn: That is correct. Man. There was at least some logic to that one, I think.

[35:24] Jess Milburn: All right. Joan. Great day for feet people.

[35:31] Joan Milburn: True. True. Lots of feet.

[35:34] Andrew DeWolf: Except for the sock person.

[35:35] Joan Milburn: Yeah, that one sock person really, really killed their killed. Killed the vibe a little bit.

[35:40] Andrew DeWolf: Well, now I'm just I'm just in a tizzy because I was wrong the first time. Um I'm on a roll.

[35:52] Joan Milburn: I don't care. Five stars.

[35:54] Andrew DeWolf: That's five stars. This must have been a foot person.

[35:58] Joan Milburn: Okay, but was it David Byrne or Spike Lee with the foot fetish?

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: A little both.

[36:06] Joan Milburn: Yeah.

[36:08] Andrew DeWolf: 6040, David Byrne, Spike Lee.

[36:08] Jess Milburn: All right, Andrew, here's one. When I watched this, my mom walked in and asked me if I was watching a church show.

[36:19] Andrew DeWolf: You know? Yeah, a little bit, actually. Lots of white people in the audience. It's got a bit of a gospel-y like look to it.

[36:28] Joan Milburn: Um, geez, that doesn't tell me at all what ranking it would be, though. Uh one star for the church show?

[36:36] Andrew DeWolf: That's a five, Andrew.

[36:39] Joan Milburn: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, Joan, you can take the lead here.

[36:46] Joan Milburn: Okay. Let's go. White boy off the shits.

[36:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-huh. I thought your screen was frozen for a second. You were so still.

[36:54] Joan Milburn: Oh no. White boy off the shits.

[36:58] Andrew DeWolf: White boy off the shits.

[37:00] Joan Milburn: Off the shits.

[37:02] Andrew DeWolf: That's Jeff Daniels in Dumb and Dumber. He's off the shits.

[37:07] Joan Milburn: I'm gonna give it five.

[37:09] Andrew DeWolf: That's a five.

[37:11] Joan Milburn: She's in the lead now.

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Andrew, we gotta take it back.

[37:18] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Give me an easy one.

[37:24] Brianna Jones: David sounds good, but why'd it feel like he's selling me an iPhone?

[37:30] Andrew DeWolf: It's like a the whole thing's like an advertisement to them. They're like, uh you try to sell me on this idea of the American Utopia. What do you want? An iPhone next.

[37:41] Joan Milburn: Uh one star.

[37:44] Andrew DeWolf: That is a one star. Tie it up.

[37:47] Brianna Jones: All right, Bree. One more for Joan, one more for Andrew, then we're done.

[37:53] Brianna Jones: Okay. Andrew jumped.

[38:01] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew jumped.

[38:05] Brianna Jones: That was a review. That was it.

[38:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if they smiled or frowned when they wrote that, but can I just say that your execution of that was 10 out of 10?

[38:19] Joan Milburn: Thank you. Give my answer.

[38:21] Brianna Jones: Um we're gonna say five stars.

[38:25] Andrew DeWolf: That's a five star.

[38:27] Joan Milburn: Hey! I am an excellent actress. Thank you.

[38:30] Andrew DeWolf: This is our last one. Don't fuck it up.

[38:33] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I'm ready. Saw live. We'll do more full review later.

[38:42] Joan Milburn: Bro, are you fucking kidding me? This is the review, dude.

[38:51] Andrew DeWolf: Like Okay. I have to get this one though. Don't fuck it up, Andrew.

[38:57] Joan Milburn: They saw it live.

[38:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of effort. It probably costs a lot of money to see this. They probably like it.

[39:05] Andrew DeWolf: Five five stars.

[39:06] Joan Milburn: That is correct, and we are tied. This is a tied game. Good job to both players.

[39:15] Jess Milburn: I can never full review later. Um, this is not a tied game.

[39:20] Andrew DeWolf: Is it not?

[39:21] Joan Milburn: I th did Joan win.

[39:22] Yes.

[39:23] Jess Milburn: Joan, you're the winner.

[39:25] Joan Milburn: Yeah. What? Oh my goodness.

[39:27] Jess Milburn: She won.

[39:30] Joan Milburn: Me? Little old me?

[39:33] Jess Milburn: Yes. You win pride and joy and all all the wonders of the world.

[39:39] Joan Milburn: All I could ever ask for.

[39:41] Jess Milburn: Hell yeah. Um, you know what? On that note, it's time to go into some advertising, and then let's talk about some of these songs.

[39:54] Jess Milburn: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show. What do we got a shish sh at you? Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Andrew, tell us about Patreon and who's over there.

[40:06] Andrew DeWolf: Oh man, Patreon's where you can go if you want to get like extra content from us and also give us money so we can, you know, keep doing the show. Um, right now we have Patreon with cheese, which is a separate podcast just for patrons. And you can also like request episodes and all sorts of cool stuff. And me and Andrew just did a commentary on Cinderella, the 2021 movie. Um, which was garbage.

[40:31] Jess Milburn: Also, don't forget that you can s get video versions of this episode. You can see Joan Milburn's wonderful, wonderful face right now, like looking right at us, looking into our souls right now. In fact, I can see right on the tip of her lips, like what she really, really wants to say in her soul. She wants to say support us on Patreon. But sadly, she's muted, so she can't really say those words right now. But I promise you, she really, really wants to say those words.

[41:02] Andrew DeWolf: Damn it, I couldn't do it. It couldn't couldn't weasel it out. Just we gonna we gonna read through these? Are you reading or I'm doing it?

[41:09] Jess Milburn: I'll read it. Today our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, John Donna, Lane Knackles, Danielle Rennix, Just the Stampede, Iwan Cassidy, Taskir, Monica Thoreau, Eloise Fitzgerald, Mina Maneri, Brent Black, Lathaniel, Stacy Coombe, Joseph Evans, Green Carrier, Hern Mary Lou, Choquette, John Van Ales, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Scootin' the Technicolor Dream Coat, Liz Lynn, Alison Stellard, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, Fesbian, Ren Cullen, Rafael, Martinez Salaz, Robert Benjamin, Jessica T, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Katie McDonough, Timothy Keyes, Chris Marcote, Mimu, Kiji Marie Anastasio, Layla, RJ Norija, Avan Regan, Charlie B. Patrick Deering, Avery Brinson, Joe, Mary Lynn Brown, Lathem Fictional, Bjorn Hermans, Mac the Knife, Erica S. Toriana Fraser, Sammy the Most Lopez, Liana Morton, Angela, Kaylee Blazier, Birdman69, oh, there's always one.

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[42:16] Andrew DeWolf: All right, I think we've talked enough nonsense. Let's get back to the show.

[42:25] Jess Milburn: Let's talk about the opening number here.

[42:29] Joan Milburn: Put your hand out of your pocket.

[42:34] Jess Milburn: Wipe the sweat off of your brow.

[42:38] Joan Milburn: Now it feels like a bad connection.

[42:47] Jess Milburn: As it passes through your hearts, like a whisper in the dark.

[42:55] Joan Milburn: Raise your eyes to one who loves you.

[43:00] Jess Milburn: It is safe right where you are.

[43:07] Joan Milburn: I really like this opening.

[43:09] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm not sure how it plays, like actually physically in the room, but on screen with editing, it is so damn effective at getting you engaged.

[43:17] Andrew DeWolf: And what could just be a generic concert film shows you that it's much more than that? What do you think, Joan?

[43:24] Joan Milburn: I definitely agree with you in terms of it really hooks us in as viewers. And I also think that it is very effective at inviting us into the world of the play, but without saying too much or showing too much. So we kind of know what we're in for, but at the same time, at least when I was viewing it, I was like, there's a lot of potential here. Uh, and I also love that after it was after the first song that the ensemble was introduced gradually, so they didn't all come in at once, which I also thought was beautiful and very effective.

[44:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[44:03] Andrew DeWolf: I can hear David Byrne's voice in my head going, I'm not a singer for those who know.

[44:14] Andrew DeWolf: They had that cool brain prop. I mean, that was neat.

[44:19] Andrew DeWolf: I mean that that was the summary of the entire show. Like, what if babies are smarter than us? Isn't that the entire premise, according to Letterboxd?

[44:27] Joan Milburn: Yeah, and I mean Letterboxd, that's a trustworthy source.

[44:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[44:32] Andrew DeWolf: Joan, what do you think about the songs that aren't like that are from the Talking Heads specifically that kind of feel shoved into this a bit?

[44:42] Andrew DeWolf: I hmm. I have mixed feelings because they're good songs. I'm assuming you're talking about like their big hits that are just kind of there. Um, he tries to loop them into the theme, and I think that it works pretty well for the most part, but sometimes it does just feel like he's playing the hits and you know, playing to the crowd. So I have mixed feelings about it because the whole rest of the show feels very artful and like it's really something that he really wanted to do. And then when he plays like "Burning Down the House," it's like, well, is that just the crowd wanted to hear that? Like, I don't know. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he really felt that that fit into the show. I don't know. What do you think, Joan?

[45:28] Joan Milburn: I definitely feel similarly, and that was something that I was thinking about a lot after I saw it for the first time because I when I reflect on American Utopia as a whole and my experience with it, my three favorite songs from the musical are actually not Talking Heads songs. It is "Hell You Talking About," which is a Janelle Monáe song, and then "I Should Watch TV," which is a song that he did with St. Vincent, and then "Everybody's Coming to My House," which is from his American Utopia album. And I think that I was willing to let it slide because I am such a Talking Heads fan, but specifically with "Burning Down the House," I felt a little bit taken out. But also being in the theater and, you know, being a writer, I do think that knowing your audience and playing to your specifically older audience is a tool. Uh, but yeah, the ones that really stuck with me were actually the newer ones.

[46:36] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I agree. I do think thematically he gets the songs to work. Like I think "Burning Down the House" in the context of the show is like a rebellious sort of song about like, you know, burning down what is current, you know, and making something better. "Once in a Lifetime," I mean, that's just kind of a song that's just about, you know, the American way, I guess. I don't even know how you would say for that. But he's kind of following up on things that he talked about earlier in the show with those, but they still just stand out as weird. The one that I can kind of forgive though is "Road to Nowhere," as it's the last one, and I kind of think that it actually does fit the show really well.

[47:22] Joan Milburn: I agree with you. So "Road to Nowhere" is the only one that I didn't feel like this is like a little out of place. I also really, really loved "This Must Be the Place" because of the way that they utilized movement and specifically this very—I don't want to say outlandish because I feel like that is inherently like negative, but I don't mean it that way at all. I thought it was amazing, and it was my favorite part about it. But I did really like the way, and I guess where they put "This Must Be the Place" because it is so iconic, and definitely agree with you about "Road to Nowhere." Um, the only Talking Heads song that I really, really liked when I listened to this, because I'm not a big Talking Heads fan, um, I really liked "I Zimbra" just because he contextualized it with Dadaism and how he was trying to turn like Dadaist works into music, and I was like, I then I hear what it turned into. I'm like, I'm vibing this. I liked hearing the creative process and developing this. Like that was the one where I'm like, this feels disconnected from the rest, but in a good way.

[48:29] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[48:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but aside from that, I agree with you entirely. But I want to understand him and defend the weird Dadaist song in the middle of the first half.

[48:39] Joan Milburn: No, it doesn't need defense. That one was pretty good. Um, well, I do want to talk about the Janelle Monáe song, "Hell You Tombout." I know that's way later in, but I feel like it's its own like little play within this musical and easily the highlight.

[48:56] Joan Milburn: Hey, Walter Scott, say his name!

[49:13] Joan Milburn: Walter Scott.

[49:17] Joan Milburn: Germaine Reed.

[49:18] Joan Milburn: Say his name.

[49:22] Joan Milburn: Germaine Reed.

[49:23] Joan Milburn: Say it.

[49:23] Joan Milburn: Germaine Reed.

[49:21] Joan Milburn: Say his name.

[49:22] Joan Milburn: Germaine Reed.

[49:23] Joan Milburn: Say it.

[49:24] Joan Milburn: I'm also a huge Janelle Monáe fan. So when it came up in the show and he was also taking time to really discuss how this song came to be in the show and his relationship and asking permission from Janelle, I really, really enjoyed having that as well. But "Hell You Tombout" is a protest song, and they use it in the show as a memorial for those lost by police violence. And it really made me very emotional the first time that I saw it. And then as I continued watching, I realized just how genius it was, I feel like. And I loved that, and this kind of goes back to something that I was talking about earlier in the podcast, but what it means to have a relationship with your audience and build community through your art.

And I think that the way that they utilized the photos of the people that they were singing about, and then also in some cases had their family members or their loved ones be the one to bear these images. And ooh, it like gets me like choked up because I also think it was unlike anything else I'd seen in a musical ever before. And it didn't feel like, you know, we want to make a political statement. It did not feel that way at all. It felt like it really needed to be there. And I yeah, yeah. I'm like losing my words a little bit because it is one of those numbers that when I am talking about it, when I think about it, it transports me back to seeing it. And I hope that Janelle Monáe herself got to come and see a performance of it as well.

And I've listened to her interpretation of the song and his very different interpretations that both sell the same exact message beautifully to very, very gifted artists trying to stand up for something bigger than themselves. And it really, really is an effective emotional number, um, for lack of a better word. And the use of the ensemble and how multi-diverse it is, and how they are then put into the forefront, and he's just kind of like background music to them quite often. I really appreciate it as well. Like how the people of color, they're the ones that put the fist in the air and all that things like that are small but very effective in that it's not just performative um white activism.

[52:13] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, no, I could not agree more. And I think it's also important to note that this number was put into the show before the pandemic. And so this was not something that was added in response to the pandemic and response to the murder of George Floyd in response to um the civil rights movement. Not that I think that that would have been a bad thing, but I think one thing that's been really frustrating me about theater is a lot of promises are being made and a lot of uh there's been a lot of performative activism within the Broadway community, and to know that it was always there. This show did not exist without that piece. I think it just speaks to your point, uh, Jess that you just made.

[53:03] Jess Milburn: Yeah. What do you think, Andrew?

[53:06] Andrew DeWolf: I think this is, I mean, I can't really add more than you've already said, other than that, I think after seeing this part, this is where the whole show kind of became more than what it was before for me. And I feel like almost everyone should see this in a lot of ways. Like there's a lot of people that I think should watch this show in particular.

[53:29] Joan Milburn: Yeah, and it's like the anti-Hamilton in a strange way, where Hamilton—Hamilton dead. This show killed. Um, I don't want to quite say that, but I do feel like Hamilton is very much a product of the optimism of the Obama administration and the promise of uh American that we can look back nostalgically at what we did perfectly. Um, rosy colored glasses, where here it feels a little bit more optimistic in uh for the Trump administration and the early Biden administration, where hopefully we will get better, but shit sucks right now, and we need to do better.

[54:10] Andrew DeWolf: I think um, and I've wanted to sort of say this, and I think the song that follows this as well, if it fits really well.

[54:29] Andrew DeWolf: In these troubles, we still can see. We can use the stars to guide the way. It is not that far. The one fine war fine. Um, I think the whole summary of it is this optimistic futurism that has been long dead in our culture. And I think we're seeing a bit of a resurgence, and I think this show exemplifies it. And um just the idea that the world can be better, but we have to actually do something to get it there, rather than just well, it's pretty dang good right now, and let's just celebrate that, you know.

[55:20] Joan Milburn: Yeah, and the song you're talking about is "One Fine Day." Um, right afterwards, which is actually I think my favorite song in the show.

[55:28] Andrew DeWolf: Um, mine is dumb, so we'll talk about that after we're done the serious stuff. Um, I really do agree with you. Um, and I think this is important in a specific way, where a lot of older white people who tend to lean conservative because our values are changing, who might find themselves to be Talking Heads or David Byrne fans going to this, would get a message that they wouldn't have gotten at a Kid Rock concert or something like that.

[55:56] Joan Milburn: Uh, I mean Kid Rock is uh yeah, I know. I know what Kid Rock is the only celebrity we got from Detroit, him and Bob Seger. What else?

[56:07] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, Bob Seger.

[56:10] Joan Milburn: Not as bad.

[56:12] Joan Milburn: I I'm really glad that you brought that up because I completely agree with that. And I think that it's just yet another reason that um this show resonates so much with me, and why I love it so much is because why so many people need to see it, because David Byrne was given an opportunity, and he basically from my point of view was like, okay, so I am being given a chance to share this on Broadway, which is a historically gatekept, majority white, um, like quite classist institution.

[56:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[56:58] Joan Milburn: And I just think that the way that he took that and used it as an opportunity was so necessary. And I just wish that we saw more of that in Broadway, period. Like, because this is how I've seen it since I really got into newer development, but I would much rather see more American Utopias than see another revival of The Music Man on.

[57:26] Andrew DeWolf: But you know.

[57:27] Joan Milburn: The Music Man is so good too, but I agree.

[57:30] Andrew DeWolf: I do agree.

[57:32] Jess Milburn: David Byrne as the music man gets to write his second act monologue.

[57:37] Joan Milburn: Yeah.

[57:38] Jess Milburn: Now that would be that would be interesting.

[57:40] Andrew DeWolf: Jess with the good ideas?

[57:42] Jess Milburn: Hang on.

[57:44] Jess Milburn: Hey, write that down.

[57:47] Jess Milburn: Um, I want to talk about my favorite song just because I'm dumb and this was just a goofy, goofy number.

[57:54] Jess Milburn: Um, and it was I dance like this, just because I love the weird dance move that David Byrne would do.

[58:30] Jess Milburn: His dance movement was like, I dance like this, and then like that. I was like, I love this.

[58:37] Jess Milburn: Reminds me of uh I can't dance by Phil Collins or something where the whole song is just about not being able to dance.

[58:45] Jess Milburn: It's kind of the same thing. Except for this one's more joyful, where they don't care that they can't dance.

[58:51] Jess Milburn: They like not being able to. And in that interview with Spike Lee and David Byrd, Spike Lee just says roasting like his dance move.

[58:57] Jess Milburn: He's like, I knew which dance move was yours. It was this one where you look like a little cockatiel.

[59:02] Jess Milburn: He's like, He's like, no, no, those are my flippers. He's like, those are your flippers.

[59:07] Jess Milburn: Okay, okay. So I don't know. This is just me like embracing goof and happiness and joy and not being able to dance as someone that cannot dance myself.

[59:20] Jess Milburn: But Joan, you are actually a very talented dancer, so maybe you took offense by this.

[59:30] Joan Milburn: Um crazy gyrating dancers on your TikTok.

[59:34] Jess Milburn: What?

[59:36] Jess Milburn: Am I wrong? Am I wrong?

[59:38] Joan Milburn: You're you're not you're not wrong. I consider it more to be like performance art because I really I I consider myself a mover, not a dancer.

[59:53] Joan Milburn: I wish I was a dancer. But um thank you. Thank you for the compliment. But no, I took no offense whatsoever.

[1:00:01] Joan Milburn: Um in fact, like I think that if I were to ever do like a big musical again, I don't know that that will ever happen, but if I do, I would want to dance like David Byrne.

[1:00:15] Joan Milburn: And a cockatiel. I think that suits me. Matches my energy.

[1:00:21] Jess Milburn: You're a cockatiel energy?

[1:00:22] Joan Milburn: Yeah.

[1:00:23] Jess Milburn: Okay. Yeah, you I can see that. What energy would you give the rest of us here if we had animal energy?

[1:00:30] Joan Milburn: Animal energy. Come on. I'd say uh man, Jess, I don't know why. The first animal that came to my head for you was a corgi.

[1:00:42] Jess Milburn: That's about right.

[1:00:44] Andrew DeWolf: Freeze laugh because of how much that lines up.

[1:00:47] Andrew DeWolf: Clearly, I would be a lion, correct?

[1:00:50] Joan Milburn: Not some sheep.

[1:00:54] Jess Milburn: Yeah, definitely like, yeah.

[1:00:57] Jess Milburn: I just I feel I feel the the like joy, exuberance, and um, yeah. Joan is slowly creeping up to being my favorite guest, just the more she talk about me being a corgi.

[1:01:12] Jess Milburn: Um, and I I grew up only my family only ever orned orned owned corgies growing up. We never had any other breed of dog, and um even now, like I might be corgi biased, but I really just think that they're they're special creatures.

[1:01:28] Joan Milburn: And I think that you said lion i could see that i also get like um i i'm really trying to like not censor my like my like gut instincts but i'm like how do i qualify these choices chinchilla yes yes i heart agree with that and like i i'm really just like i'm i'm running on pure vibes y'all um this is how this is you're you're getting like rare insight into how like my tick tocks are moved too like really just running on like feral vibes uh and really andrew chinchillas are so cute like you are a chinchilla yeah maybe like a chinchilla lion hybrid yeah i can see that chinchillas are also like smart and like they're they're like quippy like i might be making this up but i feel like when i was doing research into various is it i don't even know if a chinchilla is like a rodent but i i used to own hamsters almost got a guinea pig almost got a chinchilla once but that they're like very like they like to like go back and forth like be playful with like other other of their rodent friends i'm really digging myself into a hole here they're slightly larger and more robust than ground squirrels you're the lion of squirrels andrew um what about um what about Brie come on re I would say like a lynx.

[1:03:06] Joan Milburn: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. My gut says.

[1:03:11] Joan Milburn: Okay. I see it. I can fight with it. Now I demand everyone JRL Studios who's out there, draw all four of us as these animals together.

[1:03:23] Joan Milburn: Please. And fulfill someone's fetish. On that note, what is our overall thoughts on David Burns American Utopia and our cheese ratings? Andrew, why don't you go first?

[1:03:36] Andrew DeWolf: Give us an example.

[1:03:40] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Yeah, I really liked this. Can you still just can you still find this on anything?

[1:03:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's on HBO Max right now. You can go check it out.

[1:03:48] Andrew DeWolf: That's where I watched it. Yeah, I mean, go watch this. If you like talking heads, definitely go watch this.

[1:03:54] Andrew DeWolf: If you don't, I'd still maybe check it out because honestly, it's really good. Um yeah, I I think we've covered pretty much everything, so just check this out. Just straight up.

[1:04:07] Andrew DeWolf: Uh as far as the cheese rating, I'm gonna give it uh aged American cheese. Um it's American Utopia, and I feel like this show is very nice, like aged cheese. And so there you go.

[1:04:24] Jess Milburn: All right, Joan, you're up.

[1:04:28] Joan Milburn: Um, well, I, as you all know, am a very big fan of this, and I hope that we see a lot more shows coming to Broadway that are developmental and experimental and kind of minimalist, but in a futurist kind of way, like American Utopia.

[1:04:52] Joan Milburn: I hope we see more of that. And I also hope we get more musicals streamed. Hope for that.

[1:05:00] Joan Milburn: And for cheese. I'm gonna give this like a I'm gonna say smoked gouda.

[1:05:13] Jess Milburn: Ooh. Good.

[1:05:14] Joan Milburn: That's good. Very tasty for sure. Very spicy, a little bit of smokiness on the top of it.

[1:05:21] Joan Milburn: It wouldn't be spicy at all, actually. But what it's I feel like it gives you a little bit of a kick more than a normal gouda. There's like a little like twang to go, but there's layers, you know.

[1:05:31] Joan Milburn: Like there's layers to this show. It's uh Jess, it's dairy. It's not spicy.

[1:05:36] Jess Milburn: Hey Brie, what is your overall what's your cheese rating on our discussion?

[1:05:41] Brianna Jones: Okay, as we know, I decide if I want to see a show after I hear everyone talk about it. Um, and you guys liked it, so I feel like I would like it.

[1:05:50] Brianna Jones: Uh and your conversation made me want to go watch it. I'm happy to hear it's on HBO. Uh Max still.

[1:05:57] Brianna Jones: Um I'm gonna give it a slice of New York uh cheese pizza. That's what I'm that's kind of how I'm vibing right now.

[1:06:06] Brianna Jones: Um that sounds really good, and the show sounds good.

[1:06:10] Jess Milburn: Yeah, but Detroit style is better.

[1:06:12] Andrew DeWolf: Um fuck no, it's not.

[1:06:13] Brianna Jones: Ew, no, it's too bready.

[1:06:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, you're right, you're right. I I hate canker sores.

[1:06:18] Andrew DeWolf: You're right. Why would I say that? I don't know why we were given like the best pizza town in the world.

[1:06:23] Brianna Jones: That was so stupid.

[1:06:24] Brianna Jones: That was horrible. No, makes no sense. Like all of our pizza sucks here.

[1:06:28] Brianna Jones: Um, I was just trying to show some spirit, but you're right. Our pizza sucks. Um New York pizza is the best.

[1:06:33] Jess Milburn: New York style.

[1:06:35] Jess Milburn: Chicago style, because it's basically not a pizza.

[1:06:37] Jess Milburn: That's why it's not good, Jess.

[1:06:39] Jess Milburn: Yeah, it's too wet.

[1:06:42] Andrew DeWolf: It's a cauldron of cheese.

[1:06:44] Jess Milburn: Cheese cauldron.

[1:06:45] Andrew DeWolf: Why does that sound bad to you?

[1:06:47] Jess Milburn: Because it is bad.

[1:06:49] Jess Milburn: I didn't I didn't say that it did. It's just what it is.

[1:06:52] Jess Milburn: It's too saucy. I would give like my pinky for a cauldron of cheese right now.

[1:06:58] Andrew DeWolf: Well, Jess, what is what is your rating?

[1:07:00] Jess Milburn: My cheese rating comes after my overall thoughts, and I really, really liked um this show. Um, I this is just not usually my cup of tea, so I was really, really happy that I enjoyed this, and I want to watch it again, honestly.

[1:07:13] Jess Milburn: Yeah, like quite often after I do a show on the sh like we cover a musical on the show, I have zero interest in re-revisiting it for XYZ reasons.

[1:07:22] Jess Milburn: Um I really want to rewatch this one like very soon. Um that's my thoughts.

[1:07:27] Jess Milburn: And the only thing I can give this is there is a cheese shop in Wisconsin called The Talking Cheese Heads. And how could I avoid how could I avoid that?

[1:07:37] Joan Milburn: Yeah, you do have to give it that.

[1:07:39] Jess Milburn: Um, so that that's it. That's the only thing I could go do.

[1:07:43] Jess Milburn: Joan, you are an absolutely fantastic guest. Thank you for joining us. Please promote all your socials, your content for the world to see because they need to see it.

[1:07:52] Joan Milburn: Oh, this has been l the most fun I've had in like weeks. I've been in just like work mode for a hot minute now, and thank you guys so much for having me on.

[1:08:03] Joan Milburn: Um, I would love to come back and do like a bad show. I was really bummed that Deereb and Hansen was taken when I was first looking.

[1:08:11] Jess Milburn: Um, we got a Hansen hater.

[1:08:15] Joan Milburn: I could write a dissertation.

[1:08:17] Jess Milburn: We already have.

[1:08:18] Joan Milburn: We've written two of it. I will also say I really just I feed with Pasic and Paul as a whole.

[1:08:24] Joan Milburn: Um, I think you want to cover James and the Giant Peach. I haven't seen it.

[1:08:29] Jess Milburn: It's that's they they did it when they were a fresh out of college. It exists.

[1:08:35] Joan Milburn: Oh, okay. Well, I know what I am adding to my Spotify lineup.

[1:08:40] Jess Milburn: Hey, if you got stuff to say, we'll bring it back.

[1:08:43] Joan Milburn: Beautiful. Um, but my socials um are um Instagram and TikTok are Joan dot milbs. And my website is www.joanmelburn.com.

[1:08:57] Joan Milburn: And yeah, if you go to any of those from this podcast, please let me know because I want to be friends with all of the fellow cheese lovers out there. This has just been such a wonderful experience.

[1:09:08] Joan Milburn: Um, anything you want to say before I start going into the spiel that wraps up the show?

[1:09:13] Jess Milburn: Um, just thank you. And I guess to also echo David Byrne within American Utopia. Make sure that you're getting out to vote. Not just in presidential elections, but in your local elections. And yeah.

[1:09:33] Andrew DeWolf: But Andrew, do you know who's definitely not voting in our local elections?

[1:09:38] Andrew DeWolf: Um, what?

[1:09:39] Jess Milburn: Just our wonderful patrons! Thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese, or on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, we're on Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese.

[1:09:50] Jess Milburn: We have a patron only podcast called Patreon with cheese. Email us at musicaltheater lives at gmail.com. Our title card was created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Go send them some love on Instagram at Jolene Casco.

[1:10:01] Jess Milburn: Our keeper the cheese is Juliet Antonio. Thank you, Juliet, for keeping track of that. Because I wouldn't. This show is produced by the beautiful, the incredible, one of my favorite people in the entire world, Brianna Joel.

[1:10:14] Jess Milburn: Our theme songs were created by Robin Nash of IOU Music UK. And you're about to hear a bunch of new ones. She's doing some new recordings for us. Get ready, get hype, bitches.

[1:10:23] Jess Milburn: Um, thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for talking so much about cheese.

[1:10:31] Jess Milburn: Uh I couldn't think of one. I couldn't think of one about a talking head.

[1:10:35] Jess Milburn: I couldn't.

[1:10:38] Andrew DeWolf: All right. Anything else we have left to say before we wrap this up?

[1:10:42] Joan Milburn: Nope.

[1:10:43] Andrew DeWolf: Everyone have a wonderful day.

[1:10:46] Jess Milburn: That was very Mr. Rogers of you, Andrew.

[1:10:49] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, goodness. Hang on. I have a couple things to say about Mr. Rogers and how I'm very similar to him in a lot of ways.

[1:10:56] Joan Milburn: I mean, Joan has a sweater on that's a little Rogers-esque.

[1:11:00] Jess Milburn: Rogers-esque, yeah. I'm I'm concerned that someone is gonna hear this podcast episode and start writing the Mr. Rogers musical.

[1:11:07] Joan Milburn: Oh no!

[1:11:09] Jess Milburn: Oh no, with David Byrne music. Don't tell Tom Hanks.

[1:11:14] Joan Milburn: No, no, my worst fear would be like Alex Brightman or someone coming in like I'm Mr. Rogers.

[1:11:19] Joan Milburn: Oh, yeah, that would be really good.

[1:11:23] Jess Milburn: Um, Joan, how about we end on your best Mr. Rogers impression, and then we'll go out.

[1:11:30] Joan Milburn: Do you want to be my neighbor?

[1:11:33] Jess Milburn: Perfect. 10 out of 10. We'll see you next time on musicals with cheese.

[1:11:44] Joan Milburn: It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Will you be mine? Will you be mine? I'm Alex Brightman. Haha, will you be my neighbor? Ha ha.