This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:05] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf, and welcome to Musicals of Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater week by week and show by show.

[0:18] Jesse McAnally: And today we're playing a little smooth. We're playing a little low-key here.

[0:23] Andrew DeWolf: And in case you haven't couldn't tell, because um we're an audio medium, Andrew has a big wacky face.

[0:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[0:44] Andrew DeWolf: I love peanuts. I'll leave them at the scene of every crime that I don't commit.

[0:50] Jesse McAnally: No, no, no, no. The Al Pacino definitely committed that crime.

[0:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I wouldn't admit it to you, Dick.

[0:59] Jesse McAnally: I'm Dick Tracy, and I have a yellow coat and no discernible personality.

[1:04] Jesse McAnally: Which is really how it should be. And I take in random orphan boys, and maybe I'm cheating out my soon-to-be wife, or maybe I'm not. Who knows?

[1:14] Jesse McAnally: Look, man, it doesn't matter. This movie's so fucking good.

[1:19] Jesse McAnally: In case you haven't picked up what we're throwing down, this week we are talking about Dick Tracy, directed by Warren Beatty's. Cue the music.

[1:38] ♪ Musical number: "Sooner or Later" — performed by Madonna ♪

[2:42] Jesse McAnally: Dick Tracy is a film written by Jim Cash and Jack Epps Jr. and directed by Warren Beatty's with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim.

[2:51] Andrew DeWolf: Which got him that's why we're doing it.

[2:52] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which got him his Oscar. Based on characters by Chester Gould.

[2:58] Jesse McAnally: Dick Tracy premiered at the Uptown Theater in Washington, DC on June 10th, 1990, and was released nationwide a day later.

[3:06] Jesse McAnally: Reviews range from favorable to mixed, with positive comments on Madonna's acting and Beatty's direction. The film was a success at the box office, and at awards time it garnered seven Academy Award nominations, winning three of the categories Best Original Song, Best Makeup, and Best Art Direction.

[3:21] Jesse McAnally: Dick Tracy is remembered today for its visual style. However, at the time, despite being able to sneak out a profit, it did not blow Disney away, and no sequel was greenlit.

[3:33] Andrew DeWolf: They also put like a huge marketing blitz behind it. They were really, really banking on this film being like Batman levels, and it just didn't get there.

[3:42] Jesse McAnally: Um, but the plot of Dick Tracy is the comic strip detective finds his life vastly complicated when Breathless Mahoney makes advances towards him while he's trying to battle Big Boy Caprice and his united mob.

[3:55] Andrew DeWolf: Dick Tracy. I don't know fucking anything about Dick Tracy, like the comics or anything else.

[4:02] Andrew DeWolf: I've only seen this movie, and that's it. Had you seen it before we talked about it today?

[4:07] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[4:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I had. Um honestly, I think I just watched it because I was just like, you know, I've heard of Dick Tracy. Like, what is this about?

[4:14] Andrew DeWolf: But unironically, this is one of the best fucking movies from this uh from this era. It's so fucking fun to watch.

[4:22] Jesse McAnally: Would you say it is the best comic book movie of the 90s? Or even, you know, of the 20th century?

[4:28] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, there's not a ton of competition for that, is there? I mean, obviously there's the '89 Batman.

[4:34] Andrew DeWolf: You've got the Superman movies, the Richard Donner ones. I don't know. I think this is better. I think I like this better.

[4:40] Jesse McAnally: Um, what about Annie starring um Albert Finney?

[4:47] Andrew DeWolf: Just shut the fuck up.

[4:49] Andrew DeWolf: Everybody! Republicans to Alba! Race for your life, Charlie Brown.

[4:54] Jesse McAnally: I don't like any of the Charlie Brown movies really, so this is the best comic book movie of the 20th century.

[5:02] Andrew DeWolf: I think the competition is probably the uh original Superman, which is three hours long.

[5:09] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[5:10] Jesse McAnally: I think that's why I've never sat all the way through it. Um the '89 Batman is the thing with that is it's really similar to this, like really similar to this, but I like this better.

[5:22] Andrew DeWolf: So you know, I think if we're just comparing it to '89 Batman, I think it might have a I think this is better than that.

[5:31] Jesse McAnally: I think I like Batman Returns a little better than this.

[5:33] Andrew DeWolf: Batman Returns fucks.

[5:35] Jesse McAnally: Now the thing with Batman Returns is Batman Returns almost feels like they watched Dick Tracy and then made another Batman movie.

[5:43] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe.

[5:44] Andrew DeWolf: Like they got uh the penguin which is kind of like some of the fucking weird Big Boy Caprice.

[5:50] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's like I don't know. It feels like Dick Tracy ripped off Batman and then Batman ripped off Dick Tracy, but I don't actually know the timeline, so it might be totally out because Batman came in in '89, Batman Returns comes out in '93, and this comes out in '90.

[6:08] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[6:09] Andrew DeWolf: So maybe you can put on the conspiracy theory hat and I will not disagree with you.

[6:14] Jesse McAnally: There's at least some overlap.

[6:16] Jesse McAnally: Let's talk about the positives just because I know you're you probably got some complaints, Mr. Movie Man.

[6:21] Andrew DeWolf: I don't have as many as you'd think.

[6:24] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. But I just find this film strange.

[6:27] Andrew DeWolf: But that I think that's what I love about it.

[6:29] Jesse McAnally: So it's visually really unique.

[6:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[6:33] Andrew DeWolf: I think. Um it's so on one hand it looks sort of similar to the '89 Batman like that sort of style, but it doesn't do the whole like dark colors and all that kind of shit.

[6:46] Andrew DeWolf: Everything is like vibrant. It's like you have like banana yellow or like bright red like these vibrant colors.

[6:55] Andrew DeWolf: It's and like it's just striking. You know you're watching Dick Tracy because it's like there's a there's the one scene where he's tied to the uh he's tied to a chair in the basement and he's wearing bright yellow.

[7:08] Andrew DeWolf: The kid is wearing bright red, yep, and then the entire building is painted bright red and yellow, and it's just like why but it's great.

[7:21] Jesse McAnally: It is a wild film to look at.

[7:23] Jesse McAnally: Um the thing that I think is the best part about this film, in my opinion, is it predates digital.

[7:29] Jesse McAnally: So instead of having all this stuff that was like digitally fixed up, they had to set deck everything.

[7:36] Jesse McAnally: Everything had to be painted, everything had to match the style, which both makes you uncomfortable, but also my god. I just love it.

[7:44] Andrew DeWolf: And okay, and I mean we you obviously you have to talk about the makeup.

[7:48] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[7:49] Jesse McAnally: Like every villain in it, it's specifically villain characters.

[7:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, not a single hero or neutral person looks like maybe Mandy Patinkin, who is like 88 Keys, yeah.

[8:00] Jesse McAnally: A little bit. Although they give him that fucking cartoon laugh.

[8:04] Andrew DeWolf: Um people did it.

[8:10] Andrew DeWolf: Only the villain characters are in this really thick makeup where they look like caricatures.

[8:18] Andrew DeWolf: They look like if you went to get like your picture done at one of those caricature places, and they they draw you with a gigantic nose if you have a slightly large nose, or like huge ears if you have a slightly large ears, or like a tiny face if your face is like sort of disproportionate.

[8:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like everyone is like that, and then they're all named after it as well.

[8:39] Andrew DeWolf: Like, so there's a guy with a huge head and a tiny face, and his name is uh Little Face.

[8:44] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[8:47] Andrew DeWolf: There's a guy where his head is completely flat and his name is Flat Top.

[8:53] Jesse McAnally: But that's right out of the comics.

[8:56] Andrew DeWolf: Like the literally those designs.

[8:58] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but it's the fact that they actually did it.

[9:01] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah, no, I agree. They could have not done it.

[9:04] Andrew DeWolf: You know, they could have had Flat Top be a guy that wears like a flat hat or something.

[9:09] Jesse McAnally: They could have gone for realism.

[9:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[9:11] Andrew DeWolf: Which, like, it's so good that they didn't.

[9:15] Jesse McAnally: Because it makes this movie so memorable.

[9:18] Jesse McAnally: It's like, why does everyone look so fucked up?

[9:21] Andrew DeWolf: Let me just go through the names of all the mob members, if you could.

[9:26] Andrew DeWolf: Um, we got Mumbles as played by Dustin Hoffman, which unrecognizable.

[9:31] Andrew DeWolf: Fantastic. Mumbles is fan.

[9:32] Jesse McAnally: I love that his mouth is like twisted to the side.

[9:36] Andrew DeWolf: And everything he says is like I want Mumbles.

[9:46] Andrew DeWolf: Then you've got William Forsythe as Flat Top. Incredible, incredible thing.

[9:50] Andrew DeWolf: He's one of my favorites. I think he just looks cool, is my thing.

[9:54] Andrew DeWolf: Edo Ross as Itchy, um, his other hitman.

[9:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you need a phone.

[10:00] Andrew DeWolf: Um, then you've got Numbers the Accountant, Mandy Patinkin as 88 Keys.

[10:05] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you've got Prune Face, Influence, Lips Manless, um, played by Paul Sorvino in a very small role.

[10:13] Andrew DeWolf: Um as I love Lips though.

[10:15] Andrew DeWolf: He he does the like um, you know, like from Lord of the Rings, like the disgusting eating.

[10:20] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[10:20] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like Lips does it better though.

[10:22] Andrew DeWolf: Like he's like slurping up these like oysters or something.

[10:25] Jesse McAnally: I don't know if it's that he does it better, or if Madonna's just nailing the reaction shot in the same frame.

[10:31] Andrew DeWolf: That might be what it is, yeah.

[10:32] Andrew DeWolf: He was in it for like barely any time, but his basically his only scene is him eating in the most disgusting manner you've ever seen.

[10:44] Andrew DeWolf: And then being drowned in cement and thrown into a like lake.

[10:48] Jesse McAnally: That's that's the other thing with this movie.

[10:50] Jesse McAnally: It's so fucking dark.

[10:52] Jesse McAnally: Like, it looks like it because it's so vibrant and the makeup is so exaggerated, it feels like it's like a family movie.

[11:00] Andrew DeWolf: But like, it's not.

[11:01] Jesse McAnally: How about the fact that Disney made it?

[11:04] Andrew DeWolf: God, there's a scene where you can literally just see Madonna's nipples.

[11:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, yeah.

[11:09] Jesse McAnally: Um that scene stuck with me.

[11:10] Jesse McAnally: I went into this basically buying for another project.

[11:14] Jesse McAnally: Um, and I'm just like, oh, her tits are out.

[11:17] Andrew DeWolf: Uh cue the clip from Scrooge where you can see her nipples.

[11:21] Jesse McAnally: Well, I want to see her nipples.

[11:24] Andrew DeWolf: I'm hoping she consented to it.

[11:26] Jesse McAnally: I know that the the 90s were a weird time, but so that's a fun um well, A, don't worry about Madonna, she's fairly free, but there's a great story um from Al Pacino on the set of this film where he said, I'm doing I'm doing this film, Dick Tracy, and I'm working with Madonna, and she walks up to me with a robe, and I'm just like, How are you doing, Madonna?

[11:46] Andrew DeWolf: And she's like, Great.

[11:47] Jesse McAnally: And then she flashed me under a robe, and she's just completely bare underneath it.

[11:51] Andrew DeWolf: And anytime you catch me staring off into space, smiling, that's what's crossing my mind.

[11:57] Jesse McAnally: Why what the fuck?

[12:00] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm just like, man, that's wild.

[12:02] Jesse McAnally: Madonna.

[12:03] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, Madonna. She she probably's pretty fearless um performer.

[12:08] Jesse McAnally: And we've only talked about Madonna once before on this podcast, and that was in the Evita movie.

[12:13] Andrew DeWolf: Which I also think she's not bad in.

[12:14] Jesse McAnally: I don't think she's a bad performer. She's got a presence to her.

[12:19] Andrew DeWolf: No, I think she does really well. And I mean, she sings. So but basically every song that Stephen Sondheim writes, it's essentially for her.

[12:27] Jesse McAnally: Mm-hmm. Um, there is one song where she duets with uh 88 keys. It's Evita and Shay, but they're the it's not the right Evita and not the right Shay. That kind of messes with me a little bit.

[12:39] Andrew DeWolf: You think that Madonna's character, Breathless, is kind of just the femme fatale that's basically like window dressing, um, kind of the way that Jessica Rabbit is in the Roger Rabbit a few years beforehand, but she's a big part of the story. Probably one of the more interesting parts of it. Spoilers, but this movie's like 20 something years old, so sorry, 30 years old, so you know, who cares? Um, but she's like maybe not the main villain, but like at least the secondary villain.

[13:08] Jesse McAnally: I'd call her the main, like uh the one with all the cards, kind of.

[13:13] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because in reality, Big Boy Caprice, while he is sort of the main villain, he doesn't actually know what's going on. He's sort of oblivious.

[13:21] Jesse McAnally: He's a boob.

[13:23] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. So like while he is driving the main plot and he is the person that needs to be stopped, Breathless is the one who actually knows what's happening and is setting up all the dominoes, you know.

[13:34] Jesse McAnally: Can I be well, don't bring up dominoes to me, but um, can I be completely honest? My first wall, I don't think the twist makes sense. For the entire movie, like it seems like they're setting up Dick Tracy's fiance to be that character that and it makes sense because she's always kind of leaving, she's always kind of planning things. She seems a little duplicitous, and it seems like she'd want revenge on these things. And especially when the kidnapping segment happens, I'm like, oh, this is where she will reveal herself, but nope, it's it it's Madonna.

[14:06] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think it doesn't make sense. I mean, because they set up that she's tired of being pushed around by Lips, like right away.

[14:14] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[14:15] Andrew DeWolf: And then immediately Big Boy kills Lips and then starts pushing her around again. Um, and also she sort of likes Dick Tracy, so she doesn't want to see him get murdered necessarily. Um I feel like a lot of it is she's setting it up that she can be on top and Dick Tracy doesn't die.

[14:32] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but then who shoots her in the end? Like, she definitely dies in the final scene, but I forgot.

[14:37] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Big Boy.

[14:37] Jesse McAnally: Big Boy shoots her.

[14:38] Andrew DeWolf: Can I be honest? I like Big Boy a lot more than I liked any of our heroes.

[14:44] Jesse McAnally: Like, not as like he's like one of those villains you love to hate. He's like one of the most engaging film presences I've ever seen.

[14:54] Andrew DeWolf: I want him dead!

[14:55] Jesse McAnally: Well, I want this no face dead, and I want Tracy dead. What's the matter? You bums forgot how to kill people? Doesn't your work mean anything to you anymore? Have you no sense of pride in what you do? No sense of duty? No sense of destiny? I'm looking for generals! What do I got? Foot soldiers! I want Tracy dead.

[15:19] Andrew DeWolf: I love the part where they're singing, uh they're singing more or whatever, and he's he's singing the whole thing with them. It's really good.

[15:28] Jesse McAnally: It's his second best musical number, you know, right next to Dunkacino.

[15:33] Andrew DeWolf: It's not Al anymore. It's Doc!

[15:35] Jesse McAnally: Oh god, I love Don Cacino. What's my name? Don'Cuccino.

[15:41] Andrew DeWolf: Um, he is fantastic in this movie. A lot of the bit players, like every one of the mob bosses, is some very well-known character actor ranging from James Conn to Dick Van Dyke as the mayor.

[15:53] Jesse McAnally: Is it the mayor or the DA?

[15:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the DA.

[15:56] Jesse McAnally: But definitely, like and I feel like strangely, Vic Van Dyke is underused. Maybe they're trying to figure out what to do with him in another movie sequel that they were gonna do.

[16:06] Andrew DeWolf: Well, he gets he gets off, doesn't he?

[16:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, maybe.

[16:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he does.

[16:10] Jesse McAnally: No, he does. Dick uh he gets Dick Tracy gets framed for killing.

[16:14] Andrew DeWolf: Which Dick Tracy gets off really easy with that one. I mean, Dick Tracy kind of is the ultimate, like I I can get away with anything because I'm just that cool kind of guy.

[16:23] Jesse McAnally: I mean, there's one thing about this movie that I'm not a huge fan of, and it's it's that Dick Tracy is definitely like a copaganda kind of thing. Like definitely. He is like the cop that just should be allowed to do whatever he wants because he can stop everything, all crime at all times.

[16:40] Andrew DeWolf: I can sort of forgive it though, because this takes place in like a fantasy universe that is nothing like our real world, but but you know, it is kind of there. It it's like when he immediately refuses to let people have their phone call, torches witnesses and all that kind of stuff.

[16:56] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah. Like he's a not a good guy. He's like a dirty hairy kind of thing, you know. Like he wants to keep killing people.

[17:04] Andrew DeWolf: They don't he keeps saying, I don't want a desk job. They want to put me behind a desk. Well, he wants to be on the on the front lines fighting the the criminal element, you know, which I guess you can't interpret as he just wants to keep killing people, but I mean he does kill a lot.

[17:19] Jesse McAnally: The movie's climax is a gun fight where they just blow each other away with machine guns.

[17:24] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, they kill like everybody. The only person who doesn't die in the gunfight is Big Boy Caprice.

[17:33] Jesse McAnally: It is a wild scene to watch now. It looks all practical. It looks incredible, but like now when like when's the last time you've seen a hero fire a gun and kill someone in a movie?

[17:44] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, there's like John Wick and stuff like that, isn't there?

[17:46] Jesse McAnally: I mean, yeah, but a PG movie aimed for all audiences.

[17:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I mean, yeah. That's the thing though. Again, I don't I feel like this movie would definitely be like PG 13, at least if it came out now.

[17:58] Jesse McAnally: Well, it PG-13 existed at the time, too. It's not like that wasn't really.

[18:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, this was right around the time the PG 13 was implemented. This has like nudity.

[18:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Like huge amounts of violence. Um, like, I I don't know. Some of the sympathy uh makeup is like leaning into body horror almost.

[18:18] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah. One of my favorite parts of this movie, it's so stupid, is how the thing is resolved with Big Boy is not because the heroes like trick him, or it's because he accidentally gets framed with kidnapping that he didn't mean to do.

[18:36] Jesse McAnally: I mean, it's a it's an intentional framing. Breathless breathless is framing him on purpose.

[18:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but he didn't do it. Our bad guy didn't do the kidnapping of the hero's girlfriend. The funny thing is that yes, he's getting he's getting put away. He's finally caught because he didn't do a crime.

[18:55] Jesse McAnally: Which is fucking hilarious. And he's just apologizing to the girl the entire time through the kidnapping.

[19:02] Andrew DeWolf: He's a well, he's apologizing to her, but he's also like verbally threatening. Like it just goes back and forth. I like uh I like that big boy Caprice uh his his personality trait is that every time like a leadership role or something hap ha happens, he quotes somebody and then says who he's quoting.

[19:21] Jesse McAnally: We are for the people. And if you ain't for the PCAP, buy the P Lincoln.

[19:26] Andrew DeWolf: It's strange. I mean, let's be clear. Big Boy looks weird. He's the least look at weird looking bad guy among them, except aside from maybe Mandy Patinkin.

[19:35] Jesse McAnally: Um he has a hairline thing going on, but that's about it.

[19:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I I looked up pictures and I feel like that's uh that's the normal hairline.

[19:42] Jesse McAnally: Maybe. I mean, he he doesn't look normal normal. He still looks a little off.

[19:46] Andrew DeWolf: And maybe Breathless. Um, there's saying, like, since she is also beautiful but also evil, I don't know. Maybe there's something to play with there.

[19:53] Jesse McAnally: We talked about the twist, but one thing I just want to mention is when she's doing all of the uh the crime element, she's wearing a mask where she doesn't have a face at all.

[20:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[20:06] Jesse McAnally: And I feel like what's so great about the movie is that you don't even know, like initially, there's no way to know if that's just a person who actually doesn't have a face.

[20:17] Andrew DeWolf: This is the kind of movie where someone might just not have a face.

[20:19] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's like literally, this could be a person who has no face. Like you literally can't tell.

[20:24] Andrew DeWolf: I had seen Return of the Jedi a few too many times to know when a female's voice is just being altered for the mask.

[20:31] Jesse McAnally: And that's ish literally put the voices next to each other. The the masked vigilante in Dick Tracy sounds exactly like Princess Leia in Return of the Jedi when it's like yeah.

[20:42] Andrew DeWolf: Ya, y'all. You know.

[20:45] Jesse McAnally: It's his eighty eight keys. I got a deal for you, maybe at the city card part in one hour. And like I as soon as I heard the voice, I'm like, oh, that's some female. I don't know which. We've got two of them in this movie, so we gotta figure out which one it is. That being said, let's talk about Warren Beatty's.

[21:05] Andrew DeWolf: Do you what do you know about Warren Beatty's in general?

[21:07] Jesse McAnally: Uh he directed Dick Tracy.

[21:09] Andrew DeWolf: That's it.

[21:09] Jesse McAnally: That's about all I know right now. What else we got?

[21:12] Andrew DeWolf: Warren Beatty's is a bit of a weirdo. He he doesn't make films exact like if you bring him on, you're bringing him to write and produce and do everything. He is a presence in and of himself.

[21:25] Jesse McAnally: Um so famously, I think you're you're a red letter media fan, Ishtar stars him.

[21:31] Andrew DeWolf: Three, two, three, four, four, two, three. And these men are pawns. Next, they will be hailed as the two messenger of God. They were just a couple of songwriters who came to Ishtar to break into show business.

[21:50] Jesse McAnally: And this was his follow-up to Ishtar.

[21:54] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, this was the follow-up to Ishtar?

[21:56] Jesse McAnally: Yep.

[21:57] Andrew DeWolf: Um dang, something good did come out of Ishtar. Um, but the problem is you had a lean Elaine May directing that film, and then she brought in Warren Beatty's, like, hey, help out, be the solo producer of this film with me. Um, and then he ruined it, actively ruined the entire production with his presence. He is a very heavy-handed producer, very heavy-handed present in everything that he does.

[22:22] Andrew DeWolf: Now, that being said, he's very good at what he does. Um, before Ishtar, he made a film called Reds, which is a three-hour epic historical drama film um that he wrote and starred in with Jack Nicholson, Diane Keaton. And in that, he had a suite written by one Stephen Sondheim.

[23:08] Jesse McAnally: Um, because Stephen Sondheim doesn't have the patience to write a score for a three-hour film. He just wrote a six-minute suite that plays a lot throughout the film. But he said, Hey, that was a great time. I will see you in a few years when I got a project. And that project happened to be Dick Tracy. Um, and they he basically wrote it on its own.

[23:27] Andrew DeWolf: So let's talk about the legal this film ballooned in budget, ballooned in all that kind of stuff. Warren Beatty's.

[23:32] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. So he starred and produced the film, and he personally owns the right to the rights to the Dick Tracy character. Not Disney, Warren Beatty's. Um, he wanted to launch a successful franchise of the film, but he had to halt the plans due to a lawsuit from executive producers, which is why this never got a sequel, even from other places in like media outside of Disney.

[23:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um in 2002, Tribune Media Services attempted to reclaim the rights to Dick Tracy character from Beatty. Beatty believed that Tribune violated numerous notification procedures that clouded the title to the rights and made it commercially impossible for him to produce a sequel.

[24:25] Jesse McAnally: Shot in late 2008, where Beatty plays Dick Tracy and is interviewed in character by Leonard Malton.

[24:33] Andrew DeWolf: What?

[24:34] Jesse McAnally: He did this in an attempt to keep the rights because he had to show he was at least attempting to make a sequel after a certain amount of years.

[24:43] Andrew DeWolf: Um if you look up this special, he is lit kind of in shadows to hide how much he's aged, but Malton did explicitly ask the fictional Dick Tracy if Warren Beatty's planned to make a sequel, and he responded that he'd heard about that.

[24:57] Jesse McAnally: But Malton needed to ask Beatty himself.

[25:00] Andrew DeWolf: So obviously that was that was not Beatty, that was Dick Tracy being interviewed.

[25:05] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[25:05] Andrew DeWolf: Um Beatty did confirm his intention to make a sequel to Dick Tracy, but he refused to discuss details, saying, I'm gonna make another one, but it's a dumb talking about movies before you get you make them.

[25:15] Jesse McAnally: I just don't do it.

[25:15] Andrew DeWolf: It gives you the perfect excuse by avoiding them.

[25:17] Jesse McAnally: When asked about the sequel would when the sequel get made, he replied, I took take so long to get around to making a movie, I don't know when it starts.

[25:25] Andrew DeWolf: In April 2016, he said he still wants to make the movie while attending Cinemacon.

[25:29] Jesse McAnally: In 2023, Turner Classic Movies aired the Dick Tracy special, Tracy zooms in, a 30-minute television special featuring Beatty once again appearing as both Tracy and himself.

[25:41] Andrew DeWolf: He criticized aspects of the 1990 film adaptation to Beatty's face and suggests that younger actors should take over the role as Tracy.

[25:49] Jesse McAnally: The special concludes with Beatty and Tracy meeting in person and suggesting that Dick Tracy will return in the future.

[25:55] Andrew DeWolf: Although there have not been any sequels in either television or motion picture form, and there have been no sequels uh in any other form.

[26:04] Jesse McAnally: So look, man, I would I would love to see a new Dick Tracy movie if they put the amount of care into it that they did with this one.

[26:12] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it is Warren Beatty's, he does personally own the rights.

[26:15] Jesse McAnally: Would you still want to see Warren Beatty's, 96 years old man, playing Dick Tracy?

[26:20] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no, I think uh I think Dick Tracy might be right.

[26:25] Jesse McAnally: They should probably um should probably get a younger.

[26:33] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know why that is like the that's the wildest part of this entire saga to me is Warren Beatty's's fight to keep the rights to Dick Tracy to never make a movie with it.

[26:44] Jesse McAnally: Uh I feel like he could do it too.

[26:47] Andrew DeWolf: Like at this point, it wouldn't even have to be a sequel. You could just make another Dick Tracy movie, right?

[26:51] Jesse McAnally: Like, yeah.

[26:52] Andrew DeWolf: It's been 30 years, like in my opinion, he was still pretty old at the time to do this role.

[26:59] Jesse McAnally: And if you're doing a 60-year-old Dick Tracy, you could. There is a story to be done there.

[27:04] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think you could do a 90-year-old Dick Tracy.

[27:07] Jesse McAnally: No, 90-year-old Dick Tracy is in a retirement home and probably has severe head trauma.

[27:14] Andrew DeWolf: And says he won't work behind no desk.

[27:17] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[27:20] Andrew DeWolf: I I like the idea of Dick Tracy working behind a desk in his 60s and then being forced into like there's a movie there. I can see that working.

[27:28] Jesse McAnally: I think what's really fun about this Dick Tracy movie is that Dick Tracy himself isn't really that goofy of a character. Like he kind of does play it pretty seriously, even though he's surrounded by these like the most horrific creatures I've ever seen.

[27:42] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like it it kind of is like when he goes in and is like trying to take apart the uh the club or whatever, and all like prune face stands up and is like, I wouldn't be caught dead in a place with gambling.

[27:53] Jesse McAnally: Like Dick Tracy doesn't like mock him or anything or like crack a joke, like it's all dead serious.

[28:00] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, you have to deliver lines like you like walnuts, big boy.

[28:07] Jesse McAnally: But you have to deliver it like straight. And I feel like that's what's so good. It's it's like a high, like there's a high level of like camp and like charm.

[28:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, this is camp.

[28:17] Jesse McAnally: That it and we've lost the camp in a lot of modern movies. And I feel like we we talk about this all the time, but we lost camp and replaced it with Snark.

[28:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and I just I want the camp back. I want I want campy movies to come back.

[28:30] Jesse McAnally: You know, it's okay to just have some fun and like make a movie where things are bright yellow and have you seen everything everywhere all at once yet?

[28:38] Andrew DeWolf: I haven't, but I want to. I hear that that is probably what I'm looking for.

[28:41] Jesse McAnally: Uh that is I rewatched it last night and I'm just sitting there every five seconds like, man, this is just joyfully what it is and unpretentious at all.

[28:51] Andrew DeWolf: But you would love everything everywhere all at once. And this reminds me a lot of that where it's just taken big swings.

[28:56] Jesse McAnally: I miss things that were so unafraid to be interesting.

[29:00] Andrew DeWolf: Every like and like even though I profess that I fucking love this movie, I'm not gonna pretend it's like perfect or anything.

[29:08] Jesse McAnally: No, it is not.

[29:09] Andrew DeWolf: It's it's a goofy fun movie, but it's like that's what it That's what's so great about it is that it it just yeah, it just makes these big decisions and it's just like, yeah, we're just gonna we're just gonna fucking do it.

[29:20] Jesse McAnally: Like what's it? I'd be damned if someone could try to tell me Dick Tracy has an arc in this movie.

[29:25] Andrew DeWolf: Like Yeah, like I mean, no.

[29:28] Jesse McAnally: No, he doesn't. And even though we are sort of here to talk about the music, um the actual score was done by Danny Elfman, and I feel like it really is too much like Batman.

[29:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I do not like the score to this movie. I think that honestly, I think Stephen Sondheim probably should have just scored the whole fucking thing.

[29:45] Jesse McAnally: He would not have the patience.

[29:46] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sure he wouldn't have, but stylistically it would have worked a lot better.

[29:50] Jesse McAnally: Danny Elfman doesn't have like a jazz like noir style to him at all.

[29:56] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[29:56] Jesse McAnally: He has uh He just made the Batman score again.

[30:00] Andrew DeWolf: He has The Simpsons and then Batman and nowhere in between those two things.

[30:05] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and Dick Tracy got Batman. And I don't think it needed Batman. I think it needed it needed to lean into what it was doing with the Stephen Sondheim songs.

[30:14] Andrew DeWolf: Now the Stephen Sondheim songs we'll talk about more after the break, but I think they're some of his best work, honestly.

[30:20] Jesse McAnally: Like his most populous work, probably.

[30:22] Andrew DeWolf: Well, he did he did literally just write uh I've got rhythm again, which I think is funny.

[30:29] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[30:29] Andrew DeWolf: He almost made like a he almost made like a rebuttal to I've got rhythm.

[30:34] Jesse McAnally: I I completely agree. Um and he talks about that in his his book a lot, where he he very often like attributes like what he's quoting from in his work, which is fantastic if you're an artist, in my opinion.

[30:49] Andrew DeWolf: So he wrote about his he wrote about his uh work on Dick Tracy of all things. He wrote about every lyric he's ever written in his two books.

[30:59] Jesse McAnally: Jesus Christ.

[31:00] Andrew DeWolf: I would I would assume I would have assumed that Dick Tracy would have been like a footnote for him.

[31:04] Jesse McAnally: He wrote about the songs that were in the original like Jim Henson version of Into the Woods that never got made.

[31:13] Andrew DeWolf: Sondheim was like, hey, I want to make sure it's complete. Somebody's gonna ask about Dick Tracy.

[31:18] Jesse McAnally: It's all in there. He likes Dick Tracy.

[31:21] Andrew DeWolf: He's like, I'm very proud of the movie. I thought uh Warren Beatty's did a great job. I think uh my work was represented and it got me an Oscar too, which is pretty great.

[31:28] Jesse McAnally: He was very like, hey, uh I liked it. I I'm proud of the work. I I think it's a good movie. I don't think he has anything to be ashamed of.

[31:36] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think he would be. I Stephen Sondheim is strangely very confident while being very insecure at the same time.

[31:44] Jesse McAnally: Where he's confident about his work, very insecure interpersonally.

[31:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, let's compare our opinions to those of the crazy folks on Letterboxd.com.

[31:52] Jesse McAnally: It's time for previews.

[31:55] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for previews.

[32:00] Jesse McAnally: It's time for previews.

[32:02] Andrew DeWolf: For the kids at home, this is a game where I read real letterbox scores to Andrew without the rating, and he has to tell me whether it is a one-star or five star based on the rating alone or by the review alone.

[32:13] Jesse McAnally: Alright, Andrew. First one.

[32:14] Andrew DeWolf: I'm ready.

[32:15] Jesse McAnally: Warren Beatty's directing a children's movie.

[32:18] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so Madonna, you'd you'll be topless in this scene.

[32:23] Jesse McAnally: It's true. It literally does happen. Um whether or not I call this actually a children's movie, though, that's that's something else.

[32:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um that is a good point. We're gonna give it a five star, though. I think that that's a positive for this movie.

[32:35] Jesse McAnally: That is correct, and it is.

[32:39] Andrew DeWolf: Um next one.

[32:41] Jesse McAnally: This movie doesn't have any scenes.

[32:44] Andrew DeWolf: Um I get what they're saying. I I don't fully know if I agree. I think on some level it does definitely have scenes.

[32:53] Jesse McAnally: Um that sounds really negative, though. We're gonna go one star.

[32:56] Andrew DeWolf: That was a five star.

[32:57] Jesse McAnally: I guess they they this person is an avant-garde enjoyer.

[33:02] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, next scenes.

[33:04] Jesse McAnally: Oh, perfect. Why would somebody kidnap Tess and not even ask for a ransom?

[33:09] Andrew DeWolf: Um well they explained it in the movie.

[33:11] Jesse McAnally: Five stars.

[33:12] Andrew DeWolf: That is uh one star.

[33:13] Jesse McAnally: Jesus fucking these these reviews are literally just it's just fucking random.

[33:17] Andrew DeWolf: It really is, though. I'm not making any of them up. I want to make that clear. You can go to Letterboxd and find these your yourself.

[33:23] Jesse McAnally: Um, next one. The kid was the best part of the movie.

[33:26] Andrew DeWolf: Really? Someone has that opinion. What uh uh mean one star. If you think the kid was the best part, you must have fucking hated this movie.

[33:32] Jesse McAnally: That is correct. In parentheses, Colin, old man voice.

[33:39] Andrew DeWolf: A feast for the eyes.

[33:43] Jesse McAnally: True, five stars.

[33:44] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct. Alright, two more.

[33:47] Jesse McAnally: Penis Tracy.

[33:51] Andrew DeWolf: Banana raincoat wearing dick.

[33:53] Jesse McAnally: Uh um, God. Okay, yeah, one star.

[33:58] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct.

[33:59] Jesse McAnally: Okay, good, good, I got it. How about we go into some striking and visual art like our Patreon.

[34:12] Andrew DeWolf: Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors at Patreon.

[34:18] Jesse McAnally: You can go to Patreon and get access to commentary tracks.

[34:21] Andrew DeWolf: We're releasing things like uh the rug rats right now, but we also have a whole backlog where we've covered all sorts of things.

[34:27] Jesse McAnally: Um you can also just give us some extra money if you'd like, you know.

[34:32] Andrew DeWolf: That's that's uh that's our goal on Patreon. Our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Danielle Rennes, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Thoreau, uh, Brent Black, Lithanial Stacy Coombe, Joseph Evans Green, Mary Lou Choquette, John Vanals, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Scoot in the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Liz Limb, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, Thesbian, Ren Cullen, Raphael Martinez Salaz, Jessica T, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Katie McDonagh, Chris Marcote, Kiji Marie Anastasio, Trevi Joseph, uh, Leela, RJ Nariga, Charlie B.

[35:08] Jesse McAnally: Bjorn Hermans, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Most, Lopez, Liana Morton, Kayleigh Blazier, Cinemaged and Reviews, Villainous Miss, Sophina Ali, The Omega Geek, Paige Pearson, Maddie Wargle, Eliza Erdman, Anna Loscatova, Chesca Veray, Sarah Den Blaker, Evan Ball, Zachary Torres, Gathering Party Before Venturing Forth, Rora Morasso, Mara Furloyne, Captain Rod Tastic, Lisa L, Sarah Walsh, Nobody, and Renee Thomas.

[35:40] Andrew DeWolf: And they give us a little financial support that helps us keep the lights on here, musical Zugeez. If you'd like to join them in supporting it and get all those fun things that Andrew brought up, come join us over at Patreon.

[35:49] Jesse McAnally: Also, Andrew, I think it's time. So we take our hats off in solidarity for a lost brother on our Patreon.

[35:55] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, who's that?

[35:56] Jesse McAnally: Um, we lost Mina Maneri this week.

[35:58] Andrew DeWolf: Did you not notice?

[35:59] Jesse McAnally: Oh geez.

[36:00] Andrew DeWolf: I there's so many names now that I'm I lose track, but yeah.

[36:04] Jesse McAnally: I know, but they've been there for a while, so I'm like, ah!

[36:07] Andrew DeWolf: I hope they're doing well.

[36:08] Jesse McAnally: Sending you the best, Mina. Let's talk about these songs in the Tracy Dick.

[36:20] ⚠ About 4 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[39:56] Jesse McAnally: You probably have to get Jason Robert Brown.

[39:58] Andrew DeWolf: They'd probably try to get Lynn Manuel Miranda.

[40:01] Jesse McAnally: Like, that's like... but he wouldn't do it.

[40:02] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think he would do a good job.

[40:04] Jesse McAnally: I don't think he would do a good job with this. Not because he's a bad writer or anything, it's just not his style.

[40:08] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I don't know. I'm interested.

[40:10] Jesse McAnally: So you, in our Patreon meetup, we talked a little bit about New York, New York, the new musical he's doing with John Cander, you know, from Candor Neb, the guy that did Cabaret and all that.

[40:20] Andrew DeWolf: And he is doing jazzier stuff there.

[40:23] Jesse McAnally: And I am interested to see how that's gonna turn out.

[40:26] Andrew DeWolf: I would be interested to hear it. I guess maybe he is a good writer for this style.

[40:30] Jesse McAnally: I just don't think I've ever heard him do it.

[40:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think that's something he hasn't tried yet.

[40:34] Jesse McAnally: So I'm... I don't want to write him off yet, but as of right now, Jason Robert Brown's the only one really doing a proper jazzy score at the moment, unless you want to hire Pasek and Paul to do, you know, La La Land again.

[40:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, well, I do think La La Land is fun. It's not gonna be what you want here.

[40:53] Jesse McAnally: No.

[40:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um, no.

[40:55] Jesse McAnally: The thing is, you wouldn't think Sondheim's for jazz either.

[40:58] Andrew DeWolf: Like, considering his work of the time, he was kind of in his hiatus period right now.

[41:04] Jesse McAnally: I think he had just done Sunday.

[41:06] Andrew DeWolf: No, he had just done Into the Woods.

[41:07] Jesse McAnally: So no, he's not in his hiatus period.

[41:09] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so yeah, no, he's getting into his late period now.

[41:12] Jesse McAnally: Um, so he still doesn't do much jazz stuff.

[41:15] Andrew DeWolf: This is probably it.

[41:16] Jesse McAnally: No, you got Dick Tracy though, and he does nail it.

[41:16] Andrew DeWolf: He does.

[41:20] Jesse McAnally: Speaking of jazz stuff, uh, more.

[41:28] Andrew DeWolf: Got my diamonds, got my yacht, got a guy I adore.

[41:38] Jesse McAnally: I'm so happy with what I got.

[41:42] Andrew DeWolf: I want more.

[41:47] Jesse McAnally: Count your blessings.

[41:49] Andrew DeWolf: One, two, three.

[41:51] Jesse McAnally: I just hate keeping score.

[41:56] Andrew DeWolf: Any numbers by with me.

[42:00] Jesse McAnally: As long as it's more.

[42:04] Andrew DeWolf: As long as it's more.

[42:08] Jesse McAnally: This is literally just a direct quote and rebuttal of the song "I've Got Rhythm," which is like classic ancient jazz.

[42:18] Andrew DeWolf: This is like proto jazz type stuff.

[42:20] Jesse McAnally: Um, yeah, so I've got rhythm, I've got music, I've got my gal, who can ask for anything more, right?

[42:27] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[42:27] Jesse McAnally: Um, but then this song is it's essentially the exact same thing except for the the Who Can Ask for Anything More is replaced with I want more. Which, you know. It's smart, it's clever. It's clever. It is essentially though, it's essentially the same song on some level, though. Like they don't it is using like the rhythm changes and all that. Yes, but it's about greed instead of like just loving dance. Like, oh, does that sound too greedy? It's not greed. It's so in no indeedy. It's just a stocking in the store. Gotta fill your cupboard, remember Mother Hubbard more. Which, and this is the song that uh this is the only song that uh Big Boy sings uh ever. He doesn't really sing it, but he basically does. I mean, he doesn't I mean he kind of does sing it though, like he does like the whole song.

[43:23] Andrew DeWolf: Got a guy I don't have me with my life. What I've got. He hits her a couple times in it.

[43:39] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I mean, he's he's obviously not supposed to be a uh savory character. I also see a few other references in here. Um to other like uh I don't know if this is a jazz standard, but Sun in the Morning and the Moon at Night, where it's like, got no diamonds, got no pearls, still I think I'm a lucky girl. I have the sun on the moon. And here it's like I got my diamonds and I got my pearls. I got my odd, got a guy I adore. I'm so happy with what I got. I want more. It's really, yeah, it so it's it is I guess I was just hearing like musically the song references. Uh there's so many references in here. There's definitely other references, and all of it is just like anything, any song where it was like, you know, I've got enough and I'm happy. It's actually no, I'm not. I got one more. There is actually a okay.

[44:26] Jesse McAnally: You were on the right track a little bit.

[44:28] Andrew DeWolf: Was I?

[44:29] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[44:30] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. So this is a pastiche of all of George Gershwin's song, which I got rhythm is a Gershwin song. And there's also a lot of I Got Plenty of Nothing, which is a George Gershwin song from uh Porgy and Bess. Um I was hearing the right thing, but there's just more to it. There's even more.

[44:49] Jesse McAnally: There's more.

[44:50] Andrew DeWolf: Um there's a lot of references to like other jazz standards that sometime like obviously had impressions from. Um, but the first lines are Once Upon a Time I Had Plenty of Nothing, which there's an entire song called I Got Plenty of Nothing from Porgy and Best. Um The Best Things in Life are Free, which is a reference to the Ray Henderson song. So it is definitely commenting on a lot of those songs about I don't need nothing but my guy or whatever bullshit.

[45:17] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, except for it's it's not I need more.

[45:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, it's about greed. And it says a lot, it's also like from the point of view of Breathless, too. So a lot of these songs they repeat, like they do they play them more than once. And this song always plays whenever she's in the club and singing to um all the criminals there. And so you hear this one quite a bit. But obviously, where you're gonna hear it the most is at the the rehearsal scene.

[45:46] Jesse McAnally: Oh yeah. Which is kind of kind of a disturbing scene in a way because it's horrendous. Because how how Big Boy like treats treats her is really not okay. He like slaps her on the belly and it looks like it hurts. Like it looks like there is contact made. Obviously, he is the bad guy, and so the movie is not condoning it. It's just not it is kind of disturbing to watch.

[46:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's not a fun thing to watch, but also he looks the way he looks. So you don't know whether to cringe or to laugh.

[46:14] Jesse McAnally: Let's talk about what can you lose, which is the song between 88 keys and Breathless.

[46:19] Andrew DeWolf: What can you lose? Maybe show she's at clues, which she chose to ignore Maybe though she knows and just wants to go on as before has a friend, nothing more.

[46:45] Jesse McAnally: So she closes the door.

[46:51] Andrew DeWolf: Well and she died.

[47:03] Jesse McAnally: Something may be broken. Still lava. What can you do? But what if she knows? At least now you have potter. What if she had to choose?

[47:23] Andrew DeWolf: This one is surprisingly good.

[47:25] Jesse McAnally: Why surprising?

[47:26] Andrew DeWolf: It's just because it's in fucking Dick Tracy. This is like a like a real fucking song. And it takes it's almost like a real musical number, too. Like in in that it's even describing what is going on in the story in a way. Because this I think they they sing this right after um isn't it right after Dick Tracy gets arrested and framed and everything?

[47:50] Jesse McAnally: It's the lowest point, kind of. She just doesn't want to deal with Dick Tracy anymore. So she just bails. Um and then this song plays, but it's between uh 88 Keys and Breathless. Breathless, and they were actually just succeeded in everything that they wanted to do. Um so it's it's like an interesting moment and it's uh really well done. And also you got Mandy Batankin singing most of it, and he's got like one of the most beautiful like voices around. Um and he and Madonna sound shockingly well together.

[48:26] Andrew DeWolf: Is this the only time they've ever sung together, probably?

[48:28] Jesse McAnally: As far as I know, a Madonna, uh, Mandy, and Stephen Sondheim collaboration. The only one probably. Yeah, I don't think it would ever happen again, these three individuals.

[48:47] Jesse McAnally: Okay, it is wild that we're doing this today, though. You know, today is Sondheim's birthday and Andrew Lloyd Webber's birthday because they share a birthday.

[48:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um, of course they do.

[48:56] Jesse McAnally: Isn't that fucking wild? Um, but both uh Madonna and Mandy Patinkin have famously worked with both Stephen Sondheim and Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: Is this the only time Madonna has worked with Stephen Sondheim?

[49:09] Jesse McAnally: As far as I know, aside from like, you know, but it did, it did happen, though. So you can't say it didn't happen. Can't take it away from her. Her entire album, I'm Breathless, is just because none of the songs from this movie were released on the Dick Tracy soundtrack. They were released on Madonna's album I'm Breathless, which is weird that an album with just Madonna songs are all that are all written by Stephen Sondheim exists in the world.

[49:35] Jesse McAnally: God, I fucking love this movie. This movie, it's like a thing that you would think I made up. It's like, you know, a pitch meeting that we do on Make Me a Musical.

[49:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's like, yeah, we got this goofy detective movie, everyone's in like monster makeup. Uh, this he's worried, he wears a banana-colored uh raincoat. And uh we got Madonna singing Stephen Sondheim songs uh in it with uh with Mandy Patinkin.

[50:04] Jesse McAnally: You know what song I like? It's a background number. Madonna doesn't sing it, that as far as I know, but it's "Live Alone and Like It." I think it's just playing over a montage of one scene. It's just a fun little ditty, like it feels very much in Sondheim's realm of follies.

[50:07] Jesse McAnally: Live alone and like it, free as the birds in the trees. High above the rioters, live alone and like it. Doing whatever you please when your heart desires, free to hang around or fly at any old time.

[50:46] Andrew DeWolf: Like, as a pastiche of like those old-timey like folly shows. These songs really do boost the movie a lot.

[50:53] Jesse McAnally: Oh, they do. Like, if that montage was just like Danny Elfman's score and boo.

[51:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like it literally wouldn't, it wouldn't work as well. Like the movie itself wouldn't be as memorable, I think. Uh, because yeah, like "Little Touch" is like having this song in there playing there just makes it work better. Then of course, there's like the murder song "Back in Business" that's playing over everything going on there.

[51:18] Jesse McAnally: Maybe I'll run for Mayor myself. Wow, wow.

[51:30] Andrew DeWolf: Didn't it? Desmo Wickwoods last half a year. Yesterday disaster waited around the pin. Well, my friend, the spring is here. Back in business, setting in bread. Good times over. Yesterday, things were out of hand.

[51:48] Jesse McAnally: "Back in Business" is the other montage number. It's the opposite montage number. Instead of Dick Tracy winning, now it's uh Big Boy Caprice winning. Which I love that there's, oh my god, it's just everything about this movie. I love that there's the two fucking montages, Dick Tracy winning and then Big Boy winning, and they both have...

[52:08] Andrew DeWolf: This is when's the last time you saw a montage in a movie? Like a proper montage.

[52:20] Jesse McAnally: They're not even bad. People make fun of montages like they're lazy or something. They are not. You can do good montages, like you don't have to like, not everything needs to be in fucking real time. It's good sometimes. Just like, hey, shit happened over like a couple weeks, and like wouldn't you rather see a little music video conveying story instead of, you know, like, hey, we've been working for a while.

[52:42] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. I, why are montages bad? Like, why are they gone? I don't understand.

[52:47] Jesse McAnally: I think maybe the death of the sports movie was part of that too.

[52:51] Andrew DeWolf: Really? Dude, movies are in a dire state. I don't even fucking know.

[52:54] Jesse McAnally: They really, really are. Cinema. I'm not saying that all movies are bad. Obviously, there are really good movies that are coming out still. It's just everything everywhere all at once.

[53:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's just it feels like, uh, it feels like genre-wise, and like you really have to seek out the good movies now. It's not like you can just go to the theater and like some good movie will be playing. You have to like look for it now.

[53:16] Jesse McAnally: And that's the other part of this that I'm really excited about the death of streaming right now and how it is not a sustainable business method, and Disney is going back. We should really reinvest in physical media. Literally, Bob Iger said that in a presentation this week. We're thinking we're gonna reinvest in physical media, the bubbles pop for us, it is not financially tenable for us to just focus on streaming, and I'm like, yes, thank you.

[53:38] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, well, I feel like we've talked everything that there is to talk about Dick Tracy. But did Tracy zoom in?

[53:45] Jesse McAnally: Did Dick Tracy zoom in?

[53:47] Andrew DeWolf: Dude, I tried to watch that, but it was so cringe I had to stop after like five minutes.

[53:53] Jesse McAnally: That is the closest thing we'll ever get to a Dick Tracy sequel is Dick Tracy zooming in.

[53:59] Andrew DeWolf: God, I, it was actively embarrassing. I was just like, please make this stop.

[54:04] Jesse McAnally: They aired that on TV.

[54:06] Andrew DeWolf: They did. He bought the rights and it aired at like 3 a.m.

[54:10] Jesse McAnally: Well, yeah, because he, it was literally just like, uh, I need to keep the rights, so let's make something and air it somewhere, and hopefully nobody will see it.

[54:20] Andrew DeWolf: And it's not like it'll be posted on the internet.

[54:25] Jesse McAnally: Oh my gosh. But Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on Dick Tracy and your cheese rating?

[54:30] Andrew DeWolf: Overall thoughts. I mean, I just, I fucking love Dick Tracy, the movie. It's so fucking good. If you haven't seen it, you should watch it. Um, it's, I don't know, it's just a ton of fucking fun to watch. And there are things that I don't love about it, but honestly, I don't even care. Like, it's just good. Whatever. Fuck it. Go in knowing it's gonna be a weird experience. Don't go in expecting a Marvel movie.

[54:53] Jesse McAnally: Oh god.

[54:53] Andrew DeWolf: And honestly, if you go in expecting a Marvel movie, I hope you're disappointed.

[54:59] Jesse McAnally: Oh, it's a comic book movie. Let's go give it a, you know what? If you liked Sam Raimi's Darkman, you'll love this movie. I think that's a good judgment to make.

[55:09] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah, and Darkman is so fucking good too.

[55:11] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. If you like Darkman, this is absolutely like the same genre. Like, very similar. Um, that would make a great double feature, honestly.

[55:20] Andrew DeWolf: Actually, yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, like Darkman and Dick Tracy. I feel like you watch Dick Tracy first and then you go into Darkman afterwards.

[55:27] Jesse McAnally: Uh, yeah.

[55:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Darkman feels like, you know, a dessert.

[55:31] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Um, as far as a cheese rating, god, do they talk about cheese? They don't talk about cheese at all.

[55:36] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I was trying to think of like what the kid eats and like he eats ice cream, a lot of ice cream.

[55:43] Jesse McAnally: He does eat a lot of ice cream. Um, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just gonna give it, I'm just gonna give it a cheddar cheese. Nice and bright, bright yellow, sharp cheddar cheese, like his banana raincoat.

[55:55] Andrew DeWolf: No! No! It's wrong!

[55:57] Jesse McAnally: I thought it's wrong! It doesn't work, it's not good.

[56:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, um, I can't fight that. That's a such a good, uh, I like this movie a lot, but what, like it does go down when it gets boring, it's really boring. Like, I want to say that it does go into a place where I'm just like, I don't really want to watch this anymore. But then it'll rise up again. It really ebbs and flows, it gets you and it drags you. Anytime they're singing a Sondheim number, I'm hooked though. I think there's just, there's enough good stuff in it that, I mean, this isn't a movie I'm gonna turn on like every day or anything like that, but every once in a while you watch Dick Tracy and you're just like, yeah, that was good.

[56:35] Jesse McAnally: Um, so there was one time a guy says, I'm gonna put holes in you like Swiss cheese, so I'm gonna give it Swiss cheese.

[56:42] Andrew DeWolf: Oh shit, I should have remembered that. That's right.

[56:44] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, good call. A lot of people get shot up in this movie.

[56:48] Andrew DeWolf: Dude, it's fucking violent, dude. What are we missing? We gotta do your Sondheim ranking tier list.

[56:55] Jesse McAnally: Oh god. This counts?

[56:57] Andrew DeWolf: It's a Sondheim piece.

[56:59] Jesse McAnally: If we're counting Evening Primrose, yeah, this counts.

[57:02] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, do I rate this based on the Sondheim songs alone? Because this isn't a musical, or do I base it on how much I like Dick Tracy? Because it feels unfair, like rating...

[57:15] Jesse McAnally: Well, the thing is, Sondheim only wrote the songs for every musical he's ever done. He's never in the book, he's never directed it. So it's equally as fair to rate this among everything else.

[57:23] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I hate to say it, but I feel like fucking B tier is absolutely fucking stacked.

[57:31] Jesse McAnally: You're putting it in B?

[57:32] Andrew DeWolf: I'm putting it in B tier. I mean, I like Dick Tracy a lot. I don't want to put it in A because I feel like A is reserved for like what I would consider almost like masterpiece theater, you know, and like Dick Tracy's not a little bit of a big thing.

[57:44] Jesse McAnally: To remind Dickers, it's Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods.

[57:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, we're, I don't think Dick Tracy is like masterpiece theater. It's just a lot of fun.

[57:54] Jesse McAnally: Um, like the frogs.

[57:56] Andrew DeWolf: Like the frogs, although I think this is better than the frogs, I'm gonna put this above Company, but like right above Company.

[58:03] Jesse McAnally: Um, not to say that like Dick Tracy is like way better than Company, just you hear that, kids. Dick Tracy is better than Company. Andrew said it.

[58:11] Andrew DeWolf: I said it. Yeah, you know what? I said it. His full ranking is Sweeney Todd, Mama Rose, Musical, Into the Woods, Merrily, Sunday, Dick Tracy, Company, Follies, West Side Story, The Frogs, Pacific Overtures, Assassins, Passion, and Evening Primrose at the very bottom.

[58:28] Jesse McAnally: Um, how many do you think we have left, Andrew?

[58:31] Andrew DeWolf: There's probably like three.

[58:33] Jesse McAnally: So we haven't done Saturday Night, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, Anyone Can Whistle, Do I Hear a Waltz? Then we've done most of that. Um, Road Show, and finally, here we are, which is the last one, which will be coming out later.

[58:46] Andrew DeWolf: So that's still like six.

[58:48] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. There's a good couple.

[58:50] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I'm a little less sad. And I'm sure, uh, like would we cover Reds, the three-hour Warren Beatty's film that he did a little bit of music for?

[58:58] Jesse McAnally: That might be a, uh, like a Patreon, like we just do a short episode where we talk about it briefly. We just talk about his score, because like, um, for one of his concerts, they do just perform what he's written for it to a ballet, which is fine. Because I don't think I could sit through all three hours of Reds. I'm sorry, guys. If you're wondering why I haven't done the films of Stephen Sondheim, I couldn't get through Reds.

[59:22] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, yeah, true. Dick Tracy, though. We made it through Dick Tracy.

[59:24] Jesse McAnally: Dick Tracy. You know who definitely made it through Dick Tracy? Hopefully, all of our patrons.

[59:30] Andrew DeWolf: 88 keys. Um, thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese, run Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, mate, Patreon Musical Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese, patron-only podcast called Patreon with Cheese.

[59:42] Jesse McAnally: Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com, our keeper of the cheese. There's some ASMR for you. This show is edited by Andrew DeWolf, and he's doing a fantabulous job. Our theme songs were created by Robyn Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for talking so much about Tracy's dick.

[1:00:03] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Andrew, anything else we have left to say?

[1:00:06] Jesse McAnally: You know I'm gonna add so many fucking memes into this episode.

[1:00:08] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, you'd be disappointed if you didn't.

[1:00:16] ♪ Musical number: "Sooner or Later" — performed by Madonna ♪