This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:05] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:10] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[0:14] Andrew DeWolf: And guess what, Andrew?

[0:16] Jesse McAnally: What's that?

[0:16] Andrew DeWolf: You know what time it is?

[0:17] Jesse McAnally: You know, I can't say I do.

[0:19] Andrew DeWolf: I don't have a watch on or anything, so.

[0:20] Jesse McAnally: It's time to figure out today's secret word.

[0:24] Jesse McAnally: Let me just go up to the Conki 3000 machine, plug them on in.

[0:32] Jesse McAnally: And all right, what's today's secret word, Conki?

[0:36] Conki 3000: Today's secret word is cheese.

[0:39] Jesse McAnally: You know what that means, Andrew?

[0:40] Andrew DeWolf: I think I do.

[0:42] Jesse McAnally: Anytime anyone says the secret word, what do we do?

[0:45] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, we go.

[0:46] Jesse McAnally: Ah!

[0:47] Andrew DeWolf: That's right!

[0:48] Jesse McAnally: Scream real loud!

[0:50] Andrew DeWolf: You ready?

[0:51] Jesse McAnally: Let's try it.

[0:52] Jesse McAnally: Hey Andrew!

[0:54] Andrew DeWolf: What's the title of our podcast?

[0:56] Jesse McAnally: Uh, I think it's Musicals with Cheese.

[1:01] Jesse McAnally: Okay, we're not we're not gonna do that anymore.

[1:06] Jesse McAnally: And now for the rest of the day, if anyone says the secret word, you scream.

[1:11] Andrew DeWolf: All right, remember that for later, kids.

[1:13] Jesse McAnally: Oh geez, I'm gonna have to just not say the word cheese at all.

[1:19] Andrew DeWolf: You gotta look up like the Pee-Wee Herman like secret word sound effect that goes under that.

[1:25] Jesse McAnally: The womb womp bump womp!

[1:29] Jesse McAnally: In case you haven't figured it out, this week in honor of the life and tragic loss of Paul Rubens, we are talking about both stage adaptations of the Pee-Wee Herman show.

[1:29] Jesse McAnally: Cue the music.

[1:29] Jesse McAnally: The Pee-Wee Herman Show was a stage show written by Paul Rubens, Phil Hartman, Edie McClure, John Paragon, Bill Steinkeller, Josh Myers, Jonathan Cork, and Paul Rust, with music and lyrics by Paul Rubens and Jay Cotton.

[2:59] Jesse McAnally: Their Pee-Wee Herman show originated in 1980 when Paul Rubens was one of twenty-two finalists to be chosen as a regular in SNL, and he was beaten off at the last minute by Gilbert Gottfried.

[3:14] Jesse McAnally: And Paul Rubens was pretty much convinced his career was over, and he went home and came up with the idea of a stage show featuring a character that he premiered in 1977, Pee-Wee Herman, which was based off of an underage comedian that went on stage and just bombed hard.

[3:32] Jesse McAnally: Just by describing things that he had in his pocket. And he's like, that's a fun idea of like this kid going up on like these hard stages and just bringing toys out.

[3:43] Andrew DeWolf: Um, that's actually really funny.

[3:45] Jesse McAnally: I mean, he actually does that in this too, doesn't he?

[3:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he that was his stick for a long time.

[3:50] Jesse McAnally: And he made his first appearance on screen in the film Cheech and Chong's Next Movie, where he literally plays Pee-Wee Herman as the stand-up, and he's like before he became like the child-friendly one.

[4:03] Andrew DeWolf: I'm the comedian, I'll tell the jokes, okay.

[4:06] Jesse McAnally: If you don't mind, um, but then he got $3,000 wired to him from his parents to hire 60 people to put on this show.

[4:14] Jesse McAnally: Um, so he raised the money himself, hired the people himself, and put on this show at the Groundlings Theater with Phil Hartman, John Paragon, and everyone else.

[4:24] Jesse McAnally: Um, this is where the story gets dicey.

[4:28] Jesse McAnally: So, how did that become the show that got an HBO special and became the sensation that it is just based on this weird little Groundlings show?

[4:35] Andrew DeWolf: So I don't know if this has been confirmed, but this is a very famous rumor in the comedy scene where he would make sure that it was standing room only by overcomping tickets, like just giving out free tickets, so no matter what, there was a line at the door and they would sell out.

[4:53] Jesse McAnally: Um, and basically gaslit HBO into thinking it was some great success, promoting them to the Roxy, where it did eventually become a natural success, and got the HBO recording, which is one of the two videos we're talking about today.

[5:06] Jesse McAnally: However, that was the 80s show. It was a little round trip than we're used to with Pee-Wee Herman, if we're no big adventure and all the other stuff, the Pee-Wee's Playhouse.

[5:14] Jesse McAnally: It was updated in 2009 for modern audiences with elements from the Playhouse television show and other stuff.

[5:21] Jesse McAnally: It includes things like the internet, iPad, abstinence rings, and ShamWow, and a lot of other characters.

[5:27] Jesse McAnally: Um, it after several previews that began on October 26th, 2010, the production opened on Broadway at the Stephen Sondheim Theater on November 11th, 2010, playing a limited engagement through January 2nd of 2011, where it was filmed and released on HBO that following March.

[5:44] Jesse McAnally: Um, like it's about Pee-Wee Herman, the luckiest boy in the world that will has a wish to fly, but maybe things get in his way on the way to getting there.

[5:53] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I love Pee-Wee Herman. I don't think that's ever come up on the show, but I kind of I know I it came up on episodes you were not here with.

[6:00] Andrew DeWolf: So when I did things with Emily and Christy, um, that had it has come up, but it is kind of before my time.

[6:07] Andrew DeWolf: I have no good reason as to why it was such a landmark in my childhood.

[6:11] Jesse McAnally: But what is your relationship with Pee-Wee Herman?

[6:13] Andrew DeWolf: I've seen Pee-Wee's Big Adventure.

[6:15] Andrew DeWolf: That's about it.

[6:17] Andrew DeWolf: I like Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. I think it's fun.

[6:20] Andrew DeWolf: It's a good melding of the minds between Tim Burton and Paul Rubens.

[6:24] Andrew DeWolf: My thoughts on the Pee-wee character is I don't know what the fuck he's supposed to be.

[6:29] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I don't get it.

[6:32] Andrew DeWolf: I think that I love him though.

[6:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like I think that it's great, but he reminds me of like it's like something that like Tim and Eric would do, but unironically, though, like he's Paul Rubens is just actually doing it, you know?

[6:45] Jesse McAnally: And I kind of like I dig it.

[6:47] Jesse McAnally: I really respect the hustle that he had in the 80s when he was doing this character.

[6:53] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you did ask me, like, how the fuck did Pee-Wee's Big Adventure get made? Like, how does this happen?

[6:58] Jesse McAnally: Well, I honestly I'm more curious. Well, what came first? Like, I don't even know the timeline here.

[7:03] Andrew DeWolf: Did the TV show and then the movie or no, it was this stage show was the first thing.

[7:11] Jesse McAnally: Like, this is what really got him into David Letterman a lot.

[7:16] Jesse McAnally: Like David Letterman loved bringing him on and just letting him do wild shit and growing a following until eventually he gets a movie offer.

[7:25] Andrew DeWolf: Like basically like you're a flash in the pan kind of weird thing.

[7:27] Andrew DeWolf: Cheech and Chong movies are doing well, but maybe you're kind of of that ilk.

[7:32] Andrew DeWolf: We'll give you a budget. You are greenlit if you can pick a director, basically.

[7:36] Jesse McAnally: Was how that came about.

[7:37] Jesse McAnally: Just based on late night show appearances and one comedy special.

[7:41] Andrew DeWolf: And then the TV show for children came after that.

[7:44] Jesse McAnally: After the movie.

[7:45] Andrew DeWolf: So this started out as a raunchy adult stage show.

[7:50] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[7:51] Andrew DeWolf: Then was on late night TV, turned into a movie, and then became a children's TV show.

[7:57] Jesse McAnally: Mm-hmm.

[7:57] Andrew DeWolf: In fact, he made the deal for the children's TV show at the premiere for the movie.

[8:01] Jesse McAnally: It's just yeah, it's really like, and I think that that really speaks to like my thoughts on the character.

[8:07] Jesse McAnally: Like, it never felt like a children's TV show to me.

[8:10] Jesse McAnally: Like all the clips that I've seen and everything, it feels like something you would watch while on like LSD or something.

[8:16] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I don't even know.

[8:17] Andrew DeWolf: So at least while you're high.

[8:20] Jesse McAnally: Ever since Paul Rubens died, I have like the show on the Shout Factory Blu-rays.

[8:25] Jesse McAnally: I've been turning on an episode a night, just kind of, you know, refamiliarizing myself with it just a little bit, and that's what really triggered me to wanting to do this.

[8:33] Jesse McAnally: And I swear to God, I would laugh a lot at just sincere information delivered in that very specific way.

[8:42] Jesse McAnally: Like like the basic facts of the way the planets are arranged, and then just the sassy comment from Pee-Wee at the end, just disregarding the educational bullshit we just saw was Pee-Wee just doesn't give a shit.

[8:56] Andrew DeWolf: You know Wow, I what a wasted time.

[9:00] Jesse McAnally: And Pee-Wee doesn't live in the real world, and he doesn't need the information that is good for people that live in the real world because he doesn't live there.

[9:08] Andrew DeWolf: No, but he's not a child.

[9:10] Jesse McAnally: He's not an adult.

[9:11] Jesse McAnally: I mean, and the thing is, there are three feature films starring Pee-Wee Herman.

[9:16] Jesse McAnally: None of them are connected to each other.

[9:18] Jesse McAnally: They are in their own universe and different tones altogether.

[9:22] Andrew DeWolf: It's it really is just he's an anomaly.

[9:26] Jesse McAnally: And I kind of love that because I don't think that that could happen anymore.

[9:30] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[9:30] Andrew DeWolf: Now everything would be like top-down, like this character is this.

[9:36] Andrew DeWolf: There's a whole like branding department and the style guide and the whatever the fuck else.

[9:43] Jesse McAnally: And like back then it was just one guy playing this character, and this character was many things, and it didn't matter.

[9:52] Jesse McAnally: And watching Pee-Wee's Playhouse, it's amazing to me.

[9:55] Jesse McAnally: Like he basically wrote every episode.

[9:57] Jesse McAnally: It's like him and one other person.

[9:59] Jesse McAnally: It's always a different person, but it's always him.

[10:01] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm like, to have such a distinct voice and such a keen feeling, and Paul Rubens had his troubles, and I'm sure no matter what, we are gonna have to talk about those things.

[10:13] Jesse McAnally: Um, but he did something very weird with his career.

[10:17] Jesse McAnally: Um, basically, he never did a single interview out of character for at least 10 years of his entire career.

[10:24] Jesse McAnally: Where he was Pee-Wee Herman.

[10:26] Jesse McAnally: Nobody knew there was another guy.

[10:28] Andrew DeWolf: Um, he would famously say, I went out of my way to never be photographed out of character until the one day I was very much photographed out of character.

[10:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah, I mean, we have to talk about that because everyone knows about that and they're gonna want us to talk about it.

[10:43] Jesse McAnally: I mean, how do we know? I mean, the two things like there was one in the 90s and one in 2002, and both should be addressed at some point.

[10:51] Andrew DeWolf: I don't really want to go into a top of the show, but I do want to talk about what is the appeal of Pee-Wee Herman, because Paul Rubens refuses to dissect it because he's like, if I do that, I feel like I'll ruin it.

[11:03] Jesse McAnally: I think the appeal for me is just how surreal it is.

[11:07] Jesse McAnally: Um and how it almost feels like it's trapped between being a like satire or parody of children's TV while also being children's TV, and then also not being children's TV.

[11:21] Andrew DeWolf: It's it's so many different things.

[11:24] Andrew DeWolf: And I think it feels like the evil, he feels like the evil Mr. Rogers.

[11:28] Jesse McAnally: I you said evil Mr. Rogers, I say he's the neutral good Andy Kaufman.

[11:33] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I feel like he takes elements of the Mr. Rogers like formula, like he's in his house and he gets visitors and they learn something, but like Pee-wee refuses to take it seriously, you know?

[11:48] Jesse McAnally: He refuses to like really learn a lesson or really have actual educational value.

[11:55] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I don't know.

[11:57] Andrew DeWolf: Um David Letterman, who basically is the reason Pee-Wee Herman had the career, he was he really did talk about it.

[12:06] Andrew DeWolf: I I'm trying to I want to get this quote correctly because it is such a good description of him, and oh god.

[12:13] Andrew DeWolf: But basically he said, I love Pee-Wee Herman because at a certain point you look at him and you think he's just a serene little kid, but behind his eyes you can see the evil of the succubus.

[12:27] Jesse McAnally: He kind of is like a cruel character though, isn't he?

[12:30] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, he's a horrendously he's a greedy, self-centered person.

[12:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like, even in just this original show, which I guess we'll we'll talk about it more in depth, but like there's no lesson.

[12:41] Andrew DeWolf: The lesson to be learned here is that he should have been more greedy.

[12:45] Jesse McAnally: That's literally how it ends.

[12:47] Jesse McAnally: It's like I mean, alright, let's start with the 1980s one, the Pee-Wee Herman show.

[12:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um, this was so when I was a kid, I was obsessed with Pee-Wee Herman.

[12:59] Andrew DeWolf: I had like a bunch of like scattered VHS tapes of the Pee-Wee's Playhouse show.

[13:03] Andrew DeWolf: Um rented Pee-Wee's Big Adventure every weekend.

[13:06] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but this was the one thing.

[13:07] Andrew DeWolf: I would keep getting it from like Blockbuster.

[13:09] Andrew DeWolf: I'm old kids, um, and bringing it up, and my parents were like, no, you're you're not getting this one.

[13:14] Jesse McAnally: So this was kind of like a holy grail for me until I like got my own computer.

[13:18] Andrew DeWolf: And then I watched.

[13:21] Jesse McAnally: You were allowed to watch porn all of a sudden, you know?

[13:23] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, suddenly you get your own computer. You're allowed to watch Pee-Wee's the Pee-Wee Herman show and pornography.

[13:29] Jesse McAnally: Which, you know, one and the same in a way.

[13:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[13:32] Andrew DeWolf: And honestly, at this point I had kind of grown up and I figured out who George Carlin was and all this other stuff.

[13:37] Andrew DeWolf: And I was like, what was so edgy about this?

[13:40] Jesse McAnally: I mean, it is slightly, slightly edgier than everything else, but not by much.

[13:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I think it's it's more just over more overtly sexual.

[13:48] Jesse McAnally: It's not like edgy.

[13:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but it's still like little boy overtly sexual.

[13:52] Andrew DeWolf: Like I feel like he's still not actively aware of what sex is.

[13:56] Andrew DeWolf: He just knows that, oh, I should be interested in this because it's naughty.

[13:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's it's it's weird.

[14:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's sexual in a in in more of a weird way, but it's not like I don't know.

[14:07] Andrew DeWolf: It's nothing that I would think is too um risque, in my opinion, I guess.

[14:13] Jesse McAnally: It's i it's not that bad.

[14:16] Andrew DeWolf: Now describe the plot of this original one, because this one's only an hour long, it's like a little less than an hour.

[14:22] Jesse McAnally: Um, it's very tight, very quick and a bunch of skit based.

[14:26] Jesse McAnally: This one this one's fun because it actually opens with his uh his original bit, I guess, which is the showing people stuff that he found.

[14:39] Jesse McAnally: He's just showing you. There's no joke. It's kind of hilarious because there is no joke. But like when you think of Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, that's exactly the first thing that happens in that movie. He gets out of bed, just plays with random toys all around his room. That's the character, I guess.

[14:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. It was the character. I guess I don't know if it stayed the characters. I don't think it's changed insanely that much, but I love that opening where he's just like, "Hey, look at this, look at this."

[15:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And at first you're like, oh well, that's silly. Um, and you don't realize that it's actually if you're like me and you don't know anything about this and you don't know that this is the original Pee-Wee Herman show, and you think this is an adaptation of a children's show or something, you're like, you're not ready for the uh Ren and Stimpy adult party cartoon shit to happen.

[15:30] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, let's not say it's not that bad. He doesn't give birth to a turd baby out of his asshole. It's not that bad, but that's what I thought was going on though. I was like, oh no, is that this? I mean the edgiest thing is really it really doesn't get that edgy. It's really just it's not he like puts mirrors on his shoes and tries to look up people's dresses and that's gross and yeah.

[15:51] Jesse McAnally: It's um, it's edgy, but not in like a funny way. It's just edgy and like, uh ha ha sexual harassment and then he hypnotizes an obviously staged actor to come on stage and strip.

[16:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, which I mean I don't love those two bits, but like neither of them were even particularly funny. Like not even in the Pee-Wee Herman, I don't know why I'm laughing kind of way, it was just kind of unpleasant.

[16:16] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but I mean I've seen worse.

[16:19] Andrew DeWolf: Uh oh yes. It's really surprisingly well for an 80s comedy show.

[16:25] Jesse McAnally: Yes, but basically, um, it's Pee-Wee uh has a bunch of people come over his house, which you know that's the normal Pee-Wee thing. Um, the most beautiful girl in Puppet Land, which is Pee-Wee's normal doesn't he live in the real world, supposedly.

[16:41] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so does he live in Puppet Land? Is that a thing?

[16:44] Jesse McAnally: It's weird. It's weird. Um, it's not the most beautiful girl in Puppet Land in the original. In the original one, she's the most beautiful girl in the world.

[16:53] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, in the second one, it is Puppet Land. And Puppet Land is a section of his playhouse where there's just a bunch of puppets.

[17:01] Jesse McAnally: Oh, so that it's like Mr. Rogers, then.

[17:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it really is. Um, where like dirty dog, cool cat, chicky baby all hang out. Like that's Puppet Land.

[17:11] Jesse McAnally: Okay. I blow in the Pee-wee's Playhouse lore on you, bo. So this one is the most beautiful girl in the world. And you get the you get another great character, uh Captain Eyebrows.

[17:21] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Captain Carl.

[17:23] Jesse McAnally: The respect on his name. Is Captain Carl a character that is replaced by Cowboy Curtis, or does he remain in the show?

[17:32] Andrew DeWolf: It's complicated.

[17:34] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so Captain Carl's. So Captain Carl does appear in Pee-Wee's Playhouse in the first two seasons. Then Phil Hartman, who also was like the big collaborator, Paul Rubens. They wrote Pee-Wee's Big Adventure together. Um, Pee-Wee Herman, the character was invited to host SNL in character, and Paul Rubens brought his own writers, including Phil Hartman. SNL really liked Phil Hartman and brought him on. Paul Rubens felt betrayed by Phil Hartman and Phil Hartman then skyrocketed in success by being on SNL until he was eventually shot to death by his wife in the middle of the night because she uh went on a bender. Um, and then she shot herself that night. Um, while the children were in the house. Um, Phil Hartman did not have the kindest end.

[18:21] Andrew DeWolf: So I think rather than just replace him, because A, he sadly Paul Rubens never got on good terms with him before he died, and B, it would have just been really sad to replace him they replaced him with Cowboy Curtis in the new one, who was played by Lawrence Fishburne in the TV show.

[18:36] Jesse McAnally: Wow, I did not expect the ending to that story.

[18:39] Andrew DeWolf: It's a really fucking bummer. Uh, read up on the Phil Hartman biography, but really it's a fucking bummer.

[18:46] Jesse McAnally: Jesus Christ. I wonder if Paul Rubens like felt bad about everything.

[18:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, he did. Um, but Phil Hartman's also a very unreadable person, where kind of he was always in character doing something with you, so he wasn't an actual human being often. So you very arm's length kind of guy. So no one really got close to him.

[19:06] Jesse McAnally: Alright, well Captain Carl's really fun, and he's really good in that role. Captain Carl, and he has big eyebrows, that's very funny.

[19:14] Andrew DeWolf: He is, and I love how actively mean he is to Pee-Wee. I think that's what's really fun about Pee-wee the Pee-Wee show is it's very hostile. Um, like the mailman comes in and he's just a dick. Like he's just a dick.

[19:31] Jesse McAnally: Opening people's mail, just being the worst. You really you kind of expect people to be like nicer uh in a show like this, but they're they're everyone is just kind of mean. Except for Miss Avon, and yeah, that's it.

[19:45] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, I'd say uh what is what is his name? Jam Jumby.

[19:50] Jesse McAnally: Jombie, he's he's not that cruel, I wouldn't say. I mean, he does kind of like gaslight Pee-wee a little bit.

[19:57] Andrew DeWolf: Sure, but I feel like that's you know, you expect you would expect someone in his position to be more cruel than he is. So Jombie was another he also helped write it. He's John Paragon, who died shortly before Paul Rubens died. And when he died, um, he is in a m like a little urn mausoleum, and Pee-Wee Herman and the actress that played Elvira designed his urn to look like Jombie's box. And it's really cool. But yeah, if I die, you better make it look like a fucking cheese uh wheel or something. I don't know.

[20:32] Jesse McAnally: Sorry. I forgot. All the people, like, from this original live show to the 2009 show, everyone came back who could come back. Except for Lawrence Fishburn, but that's kind of a different thing. Yeah, everyone, even mailman Mike, same actor in both productions.

[20:52] Andrew DeWolf: Where were we?

[20:53] Jesse McAnally: The most beautiful woman in the world.

[20:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Um, she comes to Pee-Wee's house for some reason. Um and she reveals that she is deeply in love with Captain Carl. Captain Carl. And at some point, like the the you have to remember while all this is happening, there's just random nonsense happening every five seconds. Um at some point, uh Jombie is like, hey, hey, I have a wish that you could do, and Pee-Wee's like, oh, I want to fly. But then he remembers that the most beautiful woman in the world has a wish that Captain Carl would love her. Um, and so he uses his wish on her. Um, and then he's very upset because he doesn't actually get anything in return. Nobody thanks him or anything, because why would they? Um then he like cries a bunch, and then everyone is like, you know, wait, give Pee-wee his wish. And Captain Carl reveals that the wish didn't do anything anyways, because he already loved the most beautiful woman in the world.

[21:49] Jesse McAnally: I'm okay. One of my favorite dumb throwaway lines is when Captain Carl first knows that Mr. Vaughn's coming by not diegetic music, but oh, that's Missy Vaughn's music. I gotta go. Like a dumb throwaway line, like that's her theme music, it follows her around all the time.

[22:09] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's the world they live in, isn't it? I love it. Like that the little shit like that makes me laugh so fucking hard. Um, but at the end, Pee-Wee gets his wish and he flies. In a very not great special effect.

[22:21] Jesse McAnally: It's I I feel like it's funny though. Like the fact that it's so terrible is hilarious. I like this special a lot. I think it's fun. My favorite parts are honestly like the weird cutaways to like the Mr. Bungle um short video about politeness is a thing that stays in both both specials, and it's just so much funnier in the adult one because you don't expect it, and the laughter is just so baffled and sincere.

[22:51] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's the weirdest thing about this is other than the explicitly sexual jokes, everything else is still like very kid friendly. Like it's it's so weird. Like which is why I actually thought that this came like after the children's TV show. Because I was like, oh well, surely this is like them trying to make an adult version of that. But no, like this is j it's just an adult show that happens to have a ton of stuff that's like child-friendly for some reason. Like, not I I wouldn't even call it child-friendly, just not actively vulgar.

[23:29] Jesse McAnally: Not vulgar in any real way at all. You know, there's one part that I hate in the original show that I've always skipped over. So much that I always forget it's there, but I've made a note to remember it. Do you remember the musical salute scene?

[24:03] Andrew DeWolf: Mr. and Mrs. Jelly Donut show up and do a musical salute to Oh, like this fucking beach singer.

[24:12] Jesse McAnally: I I think I've blocked this out.

[24:14] Andrew DeWolf: Slice stone. I literally don't remember this. Like, I I swear to god, like it's one of those things that I remember like I forgot this existed, but like this moment.

[24:24] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I do remember this, actually. Like, if I didn't remind you this existed, like there's nothing funny, there's nothing engaging. They just stop and sing a song poorly. The only thing sort of quote unquote funny going on is that Paul Rubens is still playing Pee-Wee Herman.

[24:39] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that is it. That's it though. Which, not gonna lie, does do a lot of work to make something funny, but that is one of the things that I'm glad to not transfer over to the Broadway revival.

[24:52] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, no, that doesn't show up even a little bit, which is it's funny because it's so the problem with revival so much longer. They still just don't bring that back. Mm-hmm. And there's like subtler adult things, like when Captain Carl's smoking his pipe and you think like you guess it's weed and Pee-wee smokes it and doesn't like it. Or like when he draws a mermaid and she's got tits missing, and it's like, alright, draw what's missing.

[25:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yep. Um, but yeah, what is your overall thoughts on the original Pee-Wee Herman show and your geez? AHHHHH rating.

[25:35] Jesse McAnally: I think that it's fine. I I I haven't watched the TV show, but if I were to guess, I is this maybe like some of the worst Pee-Wee media too.

[25:46] Andrew DeWolf: This is probably the second worst Pee-Wee media.

[25:50] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, like this is like I guess if you're a huge Pee-Wee fan, this is where it started, so I would watch it, but I think that he refined the character over time, and this is very clearly when he didn't fully know what the heck to do with this character.

[26:07] Andrew DeWolf: I will say the character is pretty refined. It's just he didn't know where to what world to throw him in. Do you throw him into a real world where he's the weird one, or do you put him into an equally real weird world to match him?

[26:18] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And do you add a bunch of weird sexual jokes and have him pretend to be like a naive little boy? Which I would say no for that last one.

[26:27] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that's kind of what works about Big Adventure is that he is naive and that's Naive and Darkness really works for Pee-Wee, in my opinion. Instead of naive and sexual overtone.

[26:40] Jesse McAnally: Um, Paul Rubens has famously had this unmade Pee-Wee Herman script that he's been dying to make. Pee-Wee Herman the Pee-Wee Herman story, which is gonna be like a Valley of the Dolls thing where he was a singer. Basically, like that falls into drugs and does all those things, and it's like a serious, like, you know, story about like how fame corrupts, but it's Pee-Wee Herman going through it, so just the irony of the darkness of it. Like it was something that he was playing with there. I read the script, I don't think it would have worked, but I am fascinated by the idea of Pee-Wee Herman being thrown into a weird dark situation.

[27:18] Andrew DeWolf: That's why Big Adventure works when you throw him in the car with an escaped criminal that probably murdered someone. Or he gets mugged on the street and he just hisses at them and they all run away. I I really think Pee-Wee is just such a such a fucking weird character that even stuff where you maybe read it and you're like, this wouldn't work, it might have worked anyways.

[27:40] Jesse McAnally: You know, like it might have. You know what? That's fair. Um, but your rating.

[27:47] Andrew DeWolf: Ah. Yes, my rating. Um for this one, it's gotta be something like unrefined. You know what? I'm just fuck it, I'm gonna give it cheddar, and then I'm gonna give the next one aged cheddar. I'm fucking lazy today, you know?

[28:04] Jesse McAnally: I'm you're just letting me talk your fucking ear off about Pee-Wee Herman.

[28:10] Andrew DeWolf: I'm I'm loving it, honestly. You got all the Pee-Wee info.

[28:13] Jesse McAnally: I I love this motherfucker so much, but how about we go into a oh yeah. Um I I I am giving this um, you know, some I'm gonna give this a uh Swiss wheel.

[28:26] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[28:26] Jesse McAnally: Because it's got holes in it.

[28:28] Andrew DeWolf: No, I just like Swiss cheese.

[28:32] Jesse McAnally: Shit! I'm gonna lose my voice by the end of this, man.

[28:35] Andrew DeWolf: You're the one doing the gag. I can't scream here. I got neighbors.

[28:40] Jesse McAnally: You better add it in the sound effect, or I'm gonna be sad.

[28:42] Andrew DeWolf: I will add in the sound effect.

[28:45] Jesse McAnally: Alright, let's go into a mid-show then talk about the revival.

[28:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

[28:55] Jesse McAnally: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a shh shh shh shh shh shell at you. Andrew, why don't you do a walk down to Puppet Land with me and we can talk about so what's going over there on Patreon?

[29:07] Andrew DeWolf: That's our own kind of puppet land. Yeah, if Patreon is where you can go if you want to get some extra content from us and support us uh financially.

[29:16] Andrew DeWolf: Um we have been putting uh new commentaries up a little more frequently. I think we might be doing another one this Saturday, so there might be a new one up there. Maybe Pee-Wee related. I'm hoping. I'm hoping. Um yeah, so that's that's what's going on over there.

[29:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um you want me to run through the patrons? I can do that.

[29:34] Jesse McAnally: No, no, no, I got it.

[29:36] Andrew DeWolf: Today's our patrons today are Melissa Goldman, Danielle Rennox, Jessica Stampede, Ewan Gassady, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black with Daniel Stacey Coop, Joseph Evans Green, Mary Louis Show Ket, Jonathan Alves, Ross Walker, Mia School, Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Janay C, Scoot the Technicolor, Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxis, Desbian, Robert Benjamin, Jessica T, Mitchell Young, Chai Tacup, Chris Marco, KG Marie Anastasio.

[30:09] Andrew DeWolf: What? Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Um RJ Norija, Juliet McClennan, Bjorn Herman, Toriana Fraser, Sammy the Adequate, Amount Jacobson, Diana Morton, Kayleigh Blazier, Cinema Getting Reviews, Villainus Maris, Sophia Ali, the Omega Geek, P. H. Pearson, Matty Worgle, Alisa Erdman, Anna Loves Catova, Sarah Den Bleckyer, Evan Balls, Zachary Torres, Rora Morasso, Mara Fourloyne, Captain Rod Tastic, Lisa L. Possessed Washing Machine, Rit Nick Roden, Julia Hardy, Jay Cusia, Caitlin Bridgeman, Sidney Hicks, Anna Bell, Billy Clifton, Andrew Wright, and the Red Caboose.

[30:53] Andrew DeWolf: They all give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Meese Schools of Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get all those fun perks and more, come join us over at Patreon.

[31:02] Jesse McAnally: Alright, let's get back to the show.

[31:11] Andrew DeWolf: So before we go into the revival, I do kind of want to talk about the years in between. I mean, good and bad. So yeah. So after that show, he obviously gets the movie deal. Tim Burton directs it. He was handpicked by Paul Rubens at the last minute by reference from Shelly Duval. That film was a shocking success. No one expected it quite to be as good as it was financially. Um that being said, he then gets a deal for the TV show. It goes for five seasons, that show.

[31:43] Jesse McAnally: And sincerely, I love it a lot. Like that was that is my Pee-wee, and like that, like it's wild, and I won't say they try to frame it as educational. I don't think I learned a single thing from it. One of the best Christmas specials ever, though. Like, sincerely, one of the top-tier Christmas specials. They just frame it educational because every show had to be sort of like edutainment if it was for kids back then.

[32:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[32:05] Jesse McAnally: I mean, for Saturday morning at the time, then Nickelodeon came along and they're like, let's just have fairies, wishes, and babies.

[32:12] Andrew DeWolf: True. And we're better for it.

[32:14] Jesse McAnally: And Bob's of Sponge. Um while doing this TV show, he did one movie called Big Top Pee-wee, which is a strangely sexual, like, not kid unfriendly. Like, it's still very much like appropriate for kids, but he has like an entire two and a half minute makeout scene with a woman because he just thought it would be funny to have the longest makeout scene in film history.

[32:37] Andrew DeWolf: Has anyone topped it?

[32:38] Jesse McAnally: I don't know. I haven't checked I don't even know if he topped it, because I think like after a certain amount of time, even as a kid, I was like, this is excessive. This is really excessive.

[32:49] Andrew DeWolf: And I yeah, so it's it's a weird movie. I don't hate it. I don't love it as much as Big Adventure though. And then the show ended. He decided to end it after five seasons. Unrelated, in 1991 in Florida, he was caught in an adult theater, um, where there was a random police spring where he and several other gentlemen were arrested for indecent exposure, despite there being no proof or evidence saying that he did anything of the sort.

[33:18] Jesse McAnally: Obviously, the famous um the famous mugshot was taken where he looks very much not like Pee-Wee. He became the butt of a lot of jokes, and I wouldn't like talk about cancel culture but it kind of since it bothered him because all the newspapers say that Pee-Wee Herman was arrested and he's like no he wasn't I was and I'm a different thing. Don't hurt that perfect thing that I created by aligning it with me the flawed human.

[33:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah Pee-wee Pee Wee Herman didn't do anything wrong other than all the stuff he does wrong in the show but yeah I mean the worst part is he's like it emboldened a lot of people to come up to me and say you know I masturbate a lot too like that's supposed to make me feel better like he's like I became the guy that masturbates which I didn't want to have be my my label.

[34:10] Jesse McAnally: It really is such it is such horseshit though isn't it? Like who doesn't?

[34:15] Andrew DeWolf: Like really come on don't bullshit me Jess I don't think Jim Henson did.

[34:23] Jesse McAnally: He had too many puppets on his hands.

[34:25] Andrew DeWolf: Well it's it is sex at that point I would say you're having s you're you're making love. Um that being said there was another much more serious much more damning accusation thrown at Paul Rubin in 2002. Um so do you know about Jeffrey Jones at all?

[34:42] Jesse McAnally: Um when I throw that name out.

[34:42] Andrew DeWolf: I don't so he a trigger warning for everything right now this is gonna get rough for a second but we're gonna get over it then we're gonna talk about some fun things. Um Jeffrey Jones was an actor in the 80s he was the dad in Beetlejuice the principal and Ferris Bueller um and then also a child pornographer that took like really both created, bought, sold, had like a plethora of it, went to prison for it.

[35:08] Jesse McAnally: But in doing that, ratted out Paul Rubin saying that he had some, and there was a raid, obviously.

[35:15] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and in like a hidden box, like not like hidden as in like hidden away, but just a box with like 500 pieces of other things. They found a piece of dated erotica that they believed to be that.

[35:30] Jesse McAnally: However, it was like such a blurry area that no one could really define it, and it was the not like there was like an empire or anything, but it was his and on his property, so it is like it's an iffy position, and he was definitely going to court for it.

[35:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um by all accounts, no one has ever said anything or accused him of anything interpersonally. Um, but that was an iffier kind of situation.

[35:58] Jesse McAnally: There's a lot of uh mitigating circumstances here, if assuming you're telling the story accurately.

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, and that is the story that has been publicly released. Um, I am not referring to court documents, I'm just referring to interviews and things that that were described.

[36:11] Jesse McAnally: Um it's a bad look when you it is like you are going to court for child pornography, though.

[36:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh god.

[36:17] Jesse McAnally: I didn't want to sidestep that and be like, oh no, this is all good, and like let's just talk about the fun things, because you do kind of have to talk about the shittier, darker aspects if you are honoring the full picture.

[36:28] Andrew DeWolf: It sounds like to me, it not knowing a huge amount about the situation, so obviously I could be completely wrong. But it sounds like Jeffrey Jones did some actually horrific shit.

[36:38] Jesse McAnally: Yes, and was trying to like rat other people out to get a lesser sentence or something like that.

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's so that's exactly what it sounds like. Um, and Paul Rubin's weird guy, all all things considered, you can't come up with Pee-Wee Herman without being a weird person.

[36:54] Jesse McAnally: So he seemed like a very easy target, especially when he already had a quote unquote sex scandal previously in his career.

[37:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[37:01] Jesse McAnally: Easy target kind of material. Um that being said, l he kind of kept it low profile, only acting in a lot of smaller roles. Like he was in the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he was in Nightmare Before Christmas, he was in Batman Returns, Mystery Men.

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: Mystery Men's a good ass movie. People people need to revisit that one.

[37:18] Jesse McAnally: Oh yeah.

[37:19] Andrew DeWolf: Um and Pee-Wee Herman did not make a return proper until he was like ramping up for this show, this Broadway show, which he was hoping to re create a brand new Pee-Wee movie based on the interest from this.

[37:34] Jesse McAnally: And it was a very successful run, really well received, all of the above. Um, and it is very much going back to the original um show that we just talked about.

[37:46] Andrew DeWolf: Returning to the Well.

[37:47] Jesse McAnally: It it basically is that show, but extended and removed a lot of the like overt sexual like weirdness that was in there.

[37:58] Andrew DeWolf: I like this show.

[38:00] Jesse McAnally: Um, I don't love it. I think that mix it's a little too much of mixing two things that I'm not sure go together.

[38:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I also think that while commendable, I think he's just a little too old and a little too tired, and the voice is gone.

[38:14] Jesse McAnally: My biggest problem with both live shows of Pee-Wee Herman is he's doesn't have the voice right because one he's too young, one he's too old.

[38:23] Andrew DeWolf: Between Beg Adventure and the end of the playhouse show, he had the voice down perfect, and he never had it like that again.

[38:29] Jesse McAnally: It's it's a very specific voice that you have to be able to do because he does those like weird laughs and like To do a Pee-Wee Herman impression, you have to do three impressions, basically.

[38:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because he has well what would you say? He has the laugh.

[38:42] Jesse McAnally: Like the which one?

[38:44] Andrew DeWolf: The big or the uh laugh.

[38:47] Jesse McAnally: It's it's both.

[38:48] Andrew DeWolf: Like you have to do both, right?

[38:50] Jesse McAnally: Um and then he has like the weird, like nasally little voice, like the little like uh top like this.

[38:58] Andrew DeWolf: He just yeah, it's like there's so many different things, and you have to know when to use each one of them, so it's it's like it's so specific.

[39:06] Jesse McAnally: And then you hear Paul Rubens just talk like a normal human being and it's like, you know, I'm just this cool, quiet guy, you know.

[39:12] Andrew DeWolf: And this is this is my voice.

[39:16] Jesse McAnally: Um he I really like Phil Lamar's cowboy Curtis.

[39:20] Andrew DeWolf: Um he's no Lawrence Fishburn, but who is.

[39:22] Jesse McAnally: Why couldn't they get him back?

[39:24] Andrew DeWolf: Was he too famous?

[39:25] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, too famous, doesn't really look the role anymore.

[39:28] Andrew DeWolf: He's where everyone else kinda still feels in the right.

[39:30] Jesse McAnally: Um Lawrence Fishburn recently, like fairly recently said this about being on Pee Wee's Playhouse that at the time and to this day, there has not been a more diverse crew both on in front of the camera and behind it.

[39:43] Andrew DeWolf: Like he had never seen a female first AC before on that.

[39:47] Jesse McAnally: He'd never seen a black camera person before being that on that.

[39:51] Andrew DeWolf: Like it was a very diverse and big crew on the Playhouse show.

[39:55] Jesse McAnally: You know, Pee Wee is like Mr. Rogers in that way as well, I think.

[39:58] Andrew DeWolf: Although I don't know if Mr. Rogers' crew was actually diverse.

[40:01] Jesse McAnally: He just had nice episodes where he talked about that.

[40:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[40:05] Jesse McAnally: Um and Pee Wee never talked about it.

[40:08] Andrew DeWolf: He just l made them a part of the family.

[40:10] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, he just did it.

[40:12] Andrew DeWolf: Which, you know, fucking good on you.

[40:14] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[40:15] Andrew DeWolf: You'll love to see it.

[40:16] Jesse McAnally: I do love to see it, and I wish we'd see it more often.

[40:18] Andrew DeWolf: Um, how did you feel about the internet integration plot wine?

[40:22] Jesse McAnally: I thought it was actually really funny. Um like genuinely. Like it's it's the it's the boomer fear like thing where like oh you're gonna get addicted to the internet, but it's done in such a pee-wee way where it's like he actually does and he has like a breakdown and then he just throws his stuff away and then it's over.

[40:40] Andrew DeWolf: I like the fact that it's like a dot matrix machine.

[40:43] Jesse McAnally: And it's it's so it's so over the top and silly, you can't even tell if he's making fun of the idea that someone would like destroy their entire life by using a computer a single time, or if he's being genuine like it's a real warning or something.

[40:58] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I can't even tell what he was trying to do with it, but it's like it's funny.

[41:04] Jesse McAnally: I think that's kind of the thing about Pee-wee. You don't know the point of it.

[41:06] Andrew DeWolf: You you don't even know if it's trying to make a point.

[41:11] Jesse McAnally: I feel like it just wasn't. I think that it was just like, what is the like cultural feeling behind computers?

[41:17] Andrew DeWolf: And it's like, oh well, one side thinks they're cool, so Pee-wee thinks that they're cool, and the other side thinks that you'll like get addicted to them and it will ruin your life.

[41:27] Jesse McAnally: So Pee-Wee will get addicted to it and it will ruin his life. Uh so we just do both, and then we just throw it all away and then never talk about it again.

[41:37] Andrew DeWolf: Um I I do have one thing that I I don't like about this special a lot, um, and it's very stupid.

[41:44] Jesse McAnally: Um is it is it that one weird uh pop culture reference that ages terribly?

[41:49] Andrew DeWolf: No, what which one?

[41:50] Jesse McAnally: Oh god. Don't they like reference like a meme that was like from 2009 that like is totally dead now?

[41:56] Andrew DeWolf: The earworm meme.

[41:58] Jesse McAnally: No, not that well, yes, kind of that, but um, it was later in the show. It was like, or were they referencing a band?

[42:05] Andrew DeWolf: I can't remember.

[42:05] Jesse McAnally: It was something they were referencing something directly that I'm like, if you weren't alive in 2009, you would not know what the fuck they're talking about.

[42:14] Andrew DeWolf: Well, the thing I'm talking about is during the Mr. Bungle skit, I've watched that over the last four weeks because that was his go-to thing.

[42:23] Jesse McAnally: Like when he'd go on David Letterman, he would bring a green screen and he would just stand in the skit reacting to it.

[42:29] Andrew DeWolf: He's not even saying any words.

[42:31] Jesse McAnally: He's just like, oh, lots of cake.

[42:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like, so I've watched that skit a lot.

[42:36] Jesse McAnally: And in this one, they add like really like gross comedic sound effects to it.

[42:42] Andrew DeWolf: Like when you cut the old grandmother lady or the lunch lady, it's like snotting noises, and the cake is like it's so much funnier when it's dead silent.

[42:52] Jesse McAnally: Like the sound hurt the joke of just how bad that short is and how many times you see it.

[42:58] Andrew DeWolf: The more you see it, the more funny it becomes.

[43:02] Jesse McAnally: For some reason, stopped believing in his own gag.

[43:04] Andrew DeWolf: That gag works so well for me.

[43:06] Jesse McAnally: That that skit on its own makes me laugh. It makes me laugh when Pee-Wee does, it makes me laugh when Mystery Science Theater does that sketch or that fucking short.

[43:15] Andrew DeWolf: I love it so much.

[43:16] Jesse McAnally: It's so stupid.

[43:19] Andrew DeWolf: Because who the fuck is Mr. Bungle?

[43:21] Jesse McAnally: They never give you the context of who Mr. Bungle is, why is he rude? Why do we not want to be him?

[43:27] Andrew DeWolf: It is so fucking regular.

[43:29] Jesse McAnally: You don't want to be Mr. Bungle because he's Mr. Bungle.

[43:30] Andrew DeWolf: It's like um it reminds me of the what is it, like Goofys and Gallant or something like that.

[43:37] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah.

[43:38] Andrew DeWolf: Have you seen those?

[43:39] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[43:39] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's it's that, right?

[43:41] Jesse McAnally: Like, you don't want to be Mr. Bungle because he's because he's Mr. Bungle.

[43:45] Andrew DeWolf: He doesn't set up straight, he runs in the hallway.

[43:52] Jesse McAnally: And my favorite joke is like, you watch that sketch, he never addresses it.

[43:56] Jesse McAnally: And then later, Missy Vaughn's like, oh, Pee-Wee didn't get his wish.

[44:00] Andrew DeWolf: Just call me Miss Bungle.

[44:04] Jesse McAnally: As if it's such a common phrase.

[44:08] Andrew DeWolf: It really is kind of a common phrase, though.

[44:10] Jesse McAnally: You've never heard anyone say that they bungled it up.

[44:12] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but they don't call themselves Mr. Bungle because they're being slightly rude.

[44:15] Jesse McAnally: I bungled it. I'm miss I missed I'm Mr. Bungle now.

[44:21] Andrew DeWolf: Then he cries. And then the whole class applauded.

[44:26] Jesse McAnally: So what made them bring this back? What why why the original? Why go back to the OG?

[44:33] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. I know Paul Rubens. There was so much more material to work with, you know.

[44:38] Jesse McAnally: I know Paul Rubens owns the character likeness of Pee-Wee Herman.

[44:42] Andrew DeWolf: He does not own the film, so he doesn't own Big Adventure Big Top Pee-Wee. Um, so he could only steal from the playhouse and his own sketches.

[44:50] Jesse McAnally: So he did that. He stole from his original live show and from the playhouse and mixed that together.

[44:55] Andrew DeWolf: So I think it's just because he stole what he owned.

[44:57] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I mean, he definitely did. It's all there.

[45:01] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, the what I think is really crazy about it too is that the baseline of it is the original show, but so little of it even is that original show though.

[45:13] Jesse McAnally: Like, unless you're looking for it, you don't notice it for a little bit because like the first probably the first like 20 minutes, they don't even do anything similar to what they did in the original show.

[45:23] Andrew DeWolf: They were just doing shit from Playhouse.

[45:25] Jesse McAnally: They mean they do, but they don't, you know?

[45:27] Andrew DeWolf: Because he sings a song and he makes them do the propaganda speech of the Pledge of Allegiance, which I think is funny.

[45:34] Jesse McAnally: Yes, of course. Um, but then he sings like the songs. They have the opening, like we should talk about some of the songs, but um the opening song, like the Pee-Wee's Playhouse, like, but only for the Pee-Wee Herman show theme song.

[45:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um which I love like where you go when you wanna go any place you wanna go. Pee-Wee's is a place you wanna go.

[45:54] Jesse McAnally: And I love the John Paragon like kind of jazzy version that plays in the credits of both both sketch and video or bell yeah both uh HBO specials.

[46:05] Andrew DeWolf: I love that version too.

[46:06] Jesse McAnally: Um and then he goes into the good morning song which is like five seconds long but I he does it both times.

[46:12] Andrew DeWolf: No there's there's similarities but a lot of it I felt like um I I wasn't sure if it was a running thing that he does every like it's like on the TV show he always does this or if it was like them doing the original show.

[46:27] Jesse McAnally: And it's it was hard to tell for a while until they started literally repeating plot points and then it was like oh this is just the OG show.

[46:36] Andrew DeWolf: I think the last third is word for word. Like the literally the last third is just the replication of the final the last third is where they're finally like oh shit like yes we have to do the thing it takes them a very long time to even get to the wish like that's not until like the very end.

[46:53] Jesse McAnally: No yeah.

[46:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um it it it it comes up a bit but then they kind of forget about it.

[47:00] Jesse McAnally: But it's honestly kind of fine though because it it really feels like it's just supposed to be completely scatterbrained and nonsensical.

[47:09] Andrew DeWolf: So and that's fine and fun.

[47:11] Jesse McAnally: Um my favorite little digression in this is when it becomes snack time and he makes onion rings and almost burns the house down.

[47:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yep, that's a good one.

[47:20] Jesse McAnally: I really just I love every time the mailman shows up because the mailman is such a dick.

[47:24] Andrew DeWolf: I love how he steals the cookies.

[47:26] Jesse McAnally: In both versions.

[47:27] Andrew DeWolf: When he steals the cookies, that's incredible.

[47:29] Jesse McAnally: But the second one, it's horse medicine cookies.

[47:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, because uh I don't know why.

[47:36] Jesse McAnally: Come up and mean we get come up and if you're doing bad things, like stealing mail.

[47:41] Andrew DeWolf: Sure, but it has like a different like vibe to it now.

[47:45] Jesse McAnally: I'm just like, did someone order COVID uh COVID cookies?

[47:51] Andrew DeWolf: But this was made in 2009, so it's really not that.

[47:57] Jesse McAnally: Both versions where he's like, here's your mail, Pee-Wee, but it's been opened.

[48:01] Andrew DeWolf: It's for our safety, Pee-wee.

[48:05] Jesse McAnally: When he walks in and he punches in in Pee-Wee's house and then takes a break, and I don't understand what's even supposed to be happening there.

[48:12] Andrew DeWolf: Is is does he is the mail is the post office Pee-Wee's house?

[48:17] Jesse McAnally: Does he is he only the mailman for Pee-Wee in all the time?

[48:20] Andrew DeWolf: Well, Puppet Land is in Pee-Wee's house.

[48:23] Jesse McAnally: In the new one.

[48:25] Andrew DeWolf: So he Yeah, but he punches in in the original two.

[48:28] Jesse McAnally: I don't understand it in the original, but I know Puppetland is in Pee-Wee's house.

[48:32] Andrew DeWolf: So he's the mailman for Puppet Land, so he has to go into Pee-Wee's house to get there.

[48:39] Jesse McAnally: See, in the Playhouse show, there was a male lady named Reba, and I loved Reba because she was the only one that didn't really like Pee-Wee's shit.

[48:50] Andrew DeWolf: And would just sign-eye like, the fuck's going on here?

[48:53] Jesse McAnally: What the hell's going on?

[48:56] Andrew DeWolf: But her her like little region that she has to deliver mail to is inside of Pee-Wee's house.

[49:01] Jesse McAnally: So she has to always go in.

[49:04] Andrew DeWolf: And she's just actively annoyed by all the shit going on, the buffoonery happening around her.

[49:10] Jesse McAnally: Oh, and you know Pee-Wee loves that.

[49:11] Andrew DeWolf: Because Pee-Wee is is an evil character, like in a in a literal sense.

[49:16] Jesse McAnally: I do want to describe to you one episode that just shows the insanity that the Playhouse TV show could go through.

[49:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and then we'll wrap this on up.

[49:27] Jesse McAnally: Um, so there was an episode where an alien creature with a giant head named Zizzy Balooba decides I want to have fun like Pee-Wee.

[49:37] Andrew DeWolf: I'm gonna steal his playhouse.

[49:39] Jesse McAnally: And at that moment, Reba just comes in to be like, hey, I'm dropping off some mail, and the playhouse takes off into space.

[49:48] Andrew DeWolf: And she's dragged to like this other planet to meet this to be in a four-sealed container by this alien evil creature that decides he wants to kidnap them all.

[49:59] Jesse McAnally: And just her being frustrated at the situation, a very Squidward-like character being thrown into this.

[50:06] Andrew DeWolf: It is top-tier great TV.

[50:09] Jesse McAnally: What in the fuck? How did Pee-Wee's Playhouse even exist?

[50:12] Andrew DeWolf: Like, how did this happen?

[50:13] Jesse McAnally: How did it run for five seasons? Not get canceled, but the creators decided to end because you know, we said what we had to say.

[50:20] Andrew DeWolf: What did you have to say?

[50:22] Jesse McAnally: We said it.

[50:23] Andrew DeWolf: The secret word.

[50:27] Jesse McAnally: It won so many Emmys.

[50:29] Andrew DeWolf: It won so many child like awards for like educational television.

[50:33] Jesse McAnally: I don't know.

[50:34] Andrew DeWolf: It's not even educational.

[50:37] Jesse McAnally: I don't understand.

[50:38] Andrew DeWolf: I guess maybe in like a bare minimum sense, they probably do a couple things every episode where they're like, this is how letters work or something.

[50:45] Jesse McAnally: I don't know.

[50:46] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, there is one thing that was new to this stage show that did go into the movie that followed this.

[50:54] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[50:54] Andrew DeWolf: The balloon gag.

[50:56] Jesse McAnally: The balloon gag.

[50:58] Andrew DeWolf: Where Pee-wee decides he wants to blow up a balloon and just let the air out very slowly.

[51:04] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[51:04] Andrew DeWolf: And he does he plays music with it.

[51:22] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[51:23] Andrew DeWolf: And in Pee-Wee's big holiday, I think it is.

[51:27] Jesse McAnally: Um, he goes to an Amish community and they ask him what you do for fun, and he just does that gag.

[51:33] Andrew DeWolf: And they all applaud at the end.

[51:36] Jesse McAnally: What you know what?

[51:40] Andrew DeWolf: It's great.

[51:41] Jesse McAnally: The second Pee-Wee Herman show was I think better than the first.

[51:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um, though probably still not the best of the best Pee-Wee Herman material.

[51:51] Jesse McAnally: I mean, personally, I still think the best I've seen is is Big Adventure.

[51:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um, though I have not seen anything from the TV show, so maybe all the TV shows just better, but the TV show is amazing, it's a different vibe than Big Adventure.

[52:03] Jesse McAnally: I kind of figure it from what you're making it sound like Big Adventure is like a totally different thing in a way, just with the Pee-Wee Herman character, though.

[52:10] Andrew DeWolf: But uh still, still it was pretty funny.

[52:13] Jesse McAnally: I really like the surrealism.

[52:15] Andrew DeWolf: Um I I think that I'm gonna give it age cheddar, like I said I was gonna give it.

[52:21] Jesse McAnally: Because it's just the original, but better.

[52:24] Andrew DeWolf: In my opinion.

[52:26] Jesse McAnally: Um, do you recommend it though?

[52:28] Andrew DeWolf: Do I recommend it?

[52:29] Jesse McAnally: I think I recommend it for stoners and uh for Pee-Wee fans.

[52:34] Andrew DeWolf: I think if you watch this while you were high, you would have a fucking great time.

[52:38] Jesse McAnally: I'm pretty sure that's a lot of reasons why some of my family members really like this.

[52:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[52:45] Jesse McAnally: You know, you know what I'm just thinking? I was thinking about getting merch and stuff and like owning the cherry chair.

[52:51] Andrew DeWolf: Um but you know what I was thinking?

[52:53] Jesse McAnally: I'm terrified of that fucking chair.

[52:56] Andrew DeWolf: I would not sit in that chair.

[52:58] Jesse McAnally: You didn't like the song in Dance Number with the chair?

[53:01] Andrew DeWolf: I like all that, but can you imagine in real life a talking chair?

[53:05] Jesse McAnally: I would not sit in it.

[53:06] Andrew DeWolf: I'd be afraid to fart on it.

[53:08] Jesse McAnally: I'd be afraid to be near it.

[53:09] Andrew DeWolf: I would not want anything to do with that.

[53:11] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so the Lonely Island a few years ago did a bit with Pee-Wee Herman getting drunk with Andy Sandberg.

[53:17] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[53:18] Jesse McAnally: Um, and then they do uh intervention with all of the SNL people, and then all of Pee-Wee's friends too.

[53:26] Andrew DeWolf: And the ch um Cherry is there, and Anderson Cooper tries to sit on it and she screams, get the fuck off me!

[53:35] Jesse McAnally: And it is the funniest thing on the planet.

[53:39] Andrew DeWolf: You know, it's it's that's gonna be kind of ironic to like uh does is that like that was probably one of the last Pee-Wee things to happen, and it's with SNL, which is where it all started, isn't it?

[53:49] Jesse McAnally: Well, he got to reject from SNL.

[53:51] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, so then he finally it's full circle.

[53:54] Jesse McAnally: He's back and now he's accepted by SNL.

[53:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[53:57] Jesse McAnally: Um respected, loved, and adored.

[54:01] Andrew DeWolf: Um, yeah.

[54:03] Jesse McAnally: Um this was a Broadway show.

[54:05] Andrew DeWolf: We didn't do a previews, they thought it was fine.

[54:10] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[54:11] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you know what? Uh just one one thought though, and it's kind of a sad note, but is Pee-Wee Herman kind of dead as well?

[54:19] Jesse McAnally: I know Paul Rubens and Pee-Wee Herman are different people, and he made that clear, but who's cle who the fuck else could play Pee-Wee Herman?

[54:26] Andrew DeWolf: There's nobody.

[54:27] Jesse McAnally: So a few years ago, more recently, like on a talk show circuit, he was very open, like, I know I'm getting older, I know all this, and apparently he knew he was dying of cancer for the last six years and didn't tell anyone.

[54:40] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but he did say, like, you know, with technology out there, I don't think Pee-Wee has to go with me when I go.

[54:47] Jesse McAnally: I feel like it is one of those things that could live on, either in animated form or any of this.

[54:51] Andrew DeWolf: I've left a lot, but I feel like a lot can be made, and I don't really want to gatekeep it, so feel free to use him as you like.

[54:59] Jesse McAnally: Um when I'm not here.

[55:01] Andrew DeWolf: And he did personally try to recast Pee-Wee several times over his life.

[55:07] Jesse McAnally: Um, including he wanted to bring Tim Burton back and do another Pee-Wee film, and even suggested Johnny Depp play Pee-Wee for that.

[55:17] Andrew DeWolf: Don't do that.

[55:18] Jesse McAnally: Because he was in that j that period.

[55:20] Andrew DeWolf: I do strongly disagree with that choice.

[55:22] Jesse McAnally: I agree.

[55:23] Andrew DeWolf: I don't like it either, but I I could see it working if it was the mid-2000s, but I don't really want it.

[55:30] Jesse McAnally: Um the best thing I could say is like an animated show, kinda like you know, that Bean show, that Mr. Bean animated show.

[55:36] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like Pee-Wee Herman would serve itself a lot better toward that.

[55:39] Jesse McAnally: Pee-Wee Herman is a n a Mr. Bean-esque character.

[55:42] Andrew DeWolf: So, um So I think using like a lot of the recorded lines of Paul Rubens, you could make some fun animated pieces with Pee-Wee Herman and keep it alive the way that Paul Rubens wants to.

[55:56] Jesse McAnally: But I think that would probably be the most you could probably do.

[55:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[55:59] Jesse McAnally: Just yeah, Pee-wee, I don't think you can really replace him.

[56:03] Andrew DeWolf: Uh i I think recasting would be very, very difficult.

[56:07] Jesse McAnally: Uh yeah.

[56:08] Andrew DeWolf: In a in a way, Paul Rubens was Pee-Wee, even if he didn't want to be.

[56:13] Jesse McAnally: And I I never think that he ever ran away from Pee-Wee.

[56:17] Andrew DeWolf: I think he just kind of didn't want to taint it with his faults.

[56:22] Jesse McAnally: Well, I understand.

[56:22] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not saying that he didn't want to be associated with the character.

[56:25] Jesse McAnally: I'm saying like he didn't want to be one-to-one with the character.

[56:29] Andrew DeWolf: But I think in a way he still was, just because I don't think anyone could ever replace him.

[56:34] Jesse McAnally: No.

[56:35] Andrew DeWolf: Um.

[56:35] Jesse McAnally: But my cheese rating.

[56:39] Andrew DeWolf: Um is a cheese sandwich, because that was the snack he tried to get um in Big Top Pee-Wee and got yelled at by an old man.

[56:51] Jesse McAnally: And you know what?

[56:53] Andrew DeWolf: I'm pretty convinced that's what we're gonna be doing on Patreon because it is the saddest sandwich I've ever seen made by a human being.

[57:01] Jesse McAnally: Like it is like a s sliver of cheese between two giant pieces of bread.

[57:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um but yeah.

[57:12] Jesse McAnally: You know who else definitely likes being between two pieces of bread?

[57:16] Andrew DeWolf: Our patrons.

[57:17] Jesse McAnally: You got it.

[57:18] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you guys for f oh god, I forgot.

[57:20] Jesse McAnally: Oh god.

[57:22] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no.

[57:22] Jesse McAnally: You're gonna have to just you're gonna have to s somehow shorten it, you know.

[57:27] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes Spotify Stitcher at musical switch.

[57:31] Jesse McAnally: Or on Twitter at Cheesy BS Patreon Musical It's Grammy Schools with Cheese YouTube Patriot Schools for Ghost Patriot only Podcast, Patreon with email us at musical theater lives at gmail.com.

[57:44] Andrew DeWolf: Our keeper of the Junior is Juliet Antonio.

[57:47] Jesse McAnally: This show is edited by the one and only Andrew DeWolf.

[57:50] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, uh, thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform.

[57:55] Jesse McAnally: All right, Andrew, is there anything else you have left to say?

[57:58] Andrew DeWolf: I just want to point out that Jess has two episodes in a row committed to the bit.

[58:05] Jesse McAnally: And I think we can all appreciate that.

[58:07] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys, it was a lot of fun, and we learned a lot about the dangers of masturbating in a porn theater, haven't we?

[58:16] Jesse McAnally: So when you get your mugshot taken, remember to smile and say, cheese.