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[0:06] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:11] Jesse McAnally: And I'm Liz Eston. And welcome to Cheese with Musicals, a podcast where I try to get Liz and Andrew to appreciate musical theater.

[0:18] Andrew DeWolf: Are you drunk?

[0:19] Jesse McAnally: No, just are you drunk?

[0:21] Andrew DeWolf: Jess, are you drunk?

[0:23] Jesse McAnally: I think he went crazy.

[0:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think.

[0:27] Liz Eston: Oh, the loony.

[0:28] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, you can't get a little bit of a little bit of a little bit.

[0:28] Jesse McAnally: He's gonna have to go to the cookie jar.

[0:30] Andrew DeWolf: Um, actually, I think that we all might be a part of the cookie jar, so we're gonna have to put ourselves in groups.

[0:36] Jesse McAnally: Uh Jess, you're in group one and Liz, you're in group B.

[0:41] Andrew DeWolf: You mean group A?

[0:43] Jesse McAnally: Nope.

[0:43] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, group B.

[0:44] Liz Eston: Okay.

[0:45] Andrew DeWolf: Well, am I crazy or am I sane?

[0:47] Jesse McAnally: What are you?

[0:47] Andrew DeWolf: Well, now you gotta fight it out to figure out.

[0:49] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I have to figure out my own mental sanity.

[0:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's the premise.

[0:55] Jesse McAnally: Great. Alright, um, just everyone, real quick, a quick test.

[1:03] Liz Eston: Ooh.

[1:04] Andrew DeWolf: Can't whistle.

[1:05] Jesse McAnally: I guess not anyone can whistle.

[1:09] Andrew DeWolf: Most people can whistle.

[1:11] Jesse McAnally: We've already disproven it.

[1:13] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, episode's over, guys.

[1:15] Jesse McAnally: We're out of here.

[1:16] Andrew DeWolf: Sound time was wrong.

[1:18] Jesse McAnally: Um myth busted.

[1:20] Andrew DeWolf: Boom.

[1:21] Jesse McAnally: Steven Sondheim never met me.

[1:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um, in case you haven't picked up what we're throwing down, and God willing, why would you have? This week we are talking about Steven Sondheim's infamous flop, Anyone Can Whistle.

[1:33] Jesse McAnally: Cue the music.

[1:47] ♪ Musical number: "Anyone Can Whistle" — performed by the cast ♪

[2:21] Jesse McAnally: And Anyone Can Whistle is a musical written and directed by Arthur Lawrence with music and lyrics by Steven Sondheim. Following a try-out period in Philadelphia, Anyone Can Whistle opened at the Majestic Theater on Broadway on April 4th, 1964, and closed after nine performances. It was the Broadway debut of Angela Lansbury and was lambasted by critics and was overall thought of as kind of a failure commercially, critically, and emotionally, but grew a cult following in the following years.

[3:04] Andrew DeWolf: The plot of Anyone Can Whistle is a fanciful story about a small economically depressed American town whose venal Mayor Oris gets the bright idea of arranging a fake miracle to attract tourists.

[3:21] Jesse McAnally: The tourists arrive, but they become intermixed with the inmates of the local cookie jar, what a rest home for non-conformists.

[3:33] Andrew DeWolf: But you could say that again. What a wild show this is. As a person from Philly, this makes sense that this bombed. It started out in the wrong place.

[3:46] Jesse McAnally: That is actually, in my Sondheim research, Sondheim said that is part of why it failed. Because if you're going to do a show that is gonna critique its audience to its face, you don't play it in Philadelphia.

[3:59] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no. If a Philly team makes it far enough in a given sport, you are afraid your car being flipped no matter the result.

[4:10] Jesse McAnally: Like, okay. So if you can flash back to, I believe two Sondheim shows ago, um, to The Frogs. This reminds me so much of The Frogs. Um, Road Show, while I did enjoy it, did not give me the Sondheim burr in the back of my head where I am experiencing something genius in the moment and I am enthralled. This gave me that several times, but then the plot in the book also happened, which makes it an infuriatingly brilliant experience, and I kind of love it.

[4:45] Andrew DeWolf: Jesse, you had similar struggles.

[4:48] Jesse McAnally: Uh, so yeah. So generally I only watch a show one time. Um, because the whole concept of this is that we give our first thoughts. It's not Ben Bradley style.

[5:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. But I hate having nothing of value to say at all. So when I watched this the first time and I couldn't figure out what the fuck happened, I had to watch it again.

[5:17] Jesse McAnally: So this one I've watched two times now, and the plot just feels nonsensical to me. Like I think I can explain what happens, but I don't think I could explain why.

[5:33] Andrew DeWolf: So this is what we crave currently in Broadway. An original musical. It's not based on anything. Like nothing at all. This is completely out of thin air kind of storytelling, and it's meant to be very farcical. Very experimental is a word that Sondheim throws around quite a bit.

[5:53] Jesse McAnally: Um, which feels like there was something my cinematography teacher once said, um, and it stuck with me, and it was meant as an insult, but she said you can't just say experimental just because you're incompetent.

[6:10] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, and I think about that at least once a week. About how I don't use that word myself anymore.

[6:21] Jesse McAnally: Um, this was a horrendously, I don't want to say cursed, but cursed production. Liz, did you read anything about this? Because if so, I could spew out some facts about what happened.

[6:33] Liz Eston: I have. I did not read too much into it because I thought you had a lot to say about it. So I want to give you a platform to speak on it.

[6:41] Andrew DeWolf: So when in Broadway pre-tryouts in Philadelphia, one of their leads, Henry Lasco, um, had a heart attack and died. A few days later, one of the dancers fell off the orchestra pit, causing a near-fatal concussion of a string player.

[6:58] Liz Eston: Oh no!

[6:59] Andrew DeWolf: Causing a fatal concussion of a string player. So a dancer fell onto a string player and killed them days after one of their lead actors died of a heart attack.

[7:09] Jesse McAnally: Jesus fucking Christ, what happened?

[7:12] Andrew DeWolf: On top of that, the show just wasn't working. They were very ambitious, and let's contextualize ourselves a bit. 1964. The only thing he had done previously, really, is A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. This is a follow-up to that very broad comedic. Um, he had done Saturday Night, but that never made it to Broadway, so I'm not counting that to get out of the comments. And he's just this young kid working with Arthur Lawrence and trusting everything that he is.

[7:46] Jesse McAnally: However, as Sondheim now with the context of many, many years later, um, was able to say the biggest issue is that Arthur Lawrence was writing the book and directing it. Because then you don't have the creative flavor of someone else shaping and reshaping with actors. And that is where the show kind of falls apart, and it hasn't worked to this day.

[8:09] Andrew DeWolf: That being said, um, thankfully, uh Columbia Records insisted upon a recording of the whatever songs they had. It was a very short, very truncated cast album. Um, and that is the reason why anyone really thinks about this show in the way that they do.

[8:28] Jesse McAnally: Um, a lot of people that especially Angela Lansbury would go on to be immense talents and very well-known, well-regarded people, and a lot of these songs would come to play in Sondheim's like feature cabarets and all that. Um, I can see all of these things. This is, it's never had a proper Broadway revival, but it's played on tours and done a lot of regional shows. Um, and in the like 60 years since it was first performed, I don't think they've got it figured out yet, but goddamn it, is it good when it's good.

[9:02] Andrew DeWolf: I think everything that I think is really good about this show is just the music. It’s the music entirely. It's some of Sondheim's best.

[9:12] Jesse McAnally: It really is.

[9:13] Andrew DeWolf: There's a lot of, I a lot of the stuff that I really like in this as well is like style that he doesn't do that often. Uh, I feel like in his later work, which is like this very upbeat kind of like marchy type style, which I think is fun.

[9:31] Jesse McAnally: Okay, there's one song, and I know we're not talking about songs, but there's one song that ranks up there with literally his best songs he's ever written. Somewhere in a Tree, Sunday, all especially like those complex ones, the really difficult ones. Simple. Holy shit. Like, the minute that song started and the way it wraps up and the way that it resolves itself, I felt transported and I was like literally elevated out of my seat watching it, like just like, oh, this, this is what greatness feels like. And I don't get that too often enough, sadly enough.

[10:07] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I don't think I get it from people who aren't Sondheim very often. And when I revisit Sondheim, it only happens on the first listen, and then I can't ever feel that feeling again.

[10:18] Jesse McAnally: Um, so I'm grateful to this experience. Um, this was one I had not read into, not one I really attached to aside from the very famous inescapable songs. Um, I the problem is we're talking about a lot of things here, but we're not talking about the plot.

[10:36] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. You wanna go through the plot?

[10:38] Jesse McAnally: I'll go through the plot. There is a town. Um, where people are poor, and there's a mayor. The mayor is, uh, you know, wants to bring in tourists, so, uh, she sets up a scam where they do a fake miracle, uh, by having a water pump in a rock, um, and the rock will leak water, and that's the miracle.

[11:11] Andrew DeWolf: Um, near to the town or in the town, there's also a well they call it a home for non-conformists, but I feel like it's pretty implied to be a, uh, like an insane asylum type place.

[11:25] Jesse McAnally: That's where it gets complicated.

[11:27] Andrew DeWolf: I think we'd interpret it today as an insane asylum. I think, well written, they were writing it for beatniks, which is like the proto-hippies.

[11:35] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, so the nonconformists slash, uh, residents of the asylum, um, they are the cookie jar. Uh, they are brought by the nurse, who is I would say close to the main character. Probably the main character.

[11:55] Andrew DeWolf: That's the issue, uh, that we could go into, uh, which is it's one of the many issues, yes.

[12:12] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. It's kind of like nebulous onto who we're following. Um, but the nurse, uh, brings all the residents of the, uh, asylum slash home for nonconformists, beatniks, whatever we want to call them. Um, she brings them all to this rock with the miracle water that drips out of it, um, and our first kind of like very weird thing happens in that I guess this part of the scam is that this miracle water is supposed to be like healing you of everything, so they don't want to allow the, uh, the people that are from the asylum to drink the water because when it doesn't cure them, the miracle will be revealed to be fake, which it just feels that feels like a really weird leap in logic to me, but I suppose I could see what they're trying to say there.

[13:08] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's where it leads to the eventual New York Times review with like one of the most baller opening sentences to any review of any theater, uh, which is there's no law against saying something in a musical, but it's unconstitutional to omit imagination and wit and attempt to be meaningful. Anyone Can Whistle forgets to offer much entertainment.

[13:28] Jesse McAnally: That's kind of the thing. It's trying to be meaningful, but yeah, um, but basically what ends up happening is because they don't allow the, uh, residents of the asylum to go to the water thing, they just kind of mix in with all the other people in the town and then everyone gets confused and they're not sure who is, uh, supposed to be in the asylum and who is not anymore.

[13:56] Andrew DeWolf: Which is a bold setup to get to Hapgood just popping in in the middle of act one.

[14:03] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, so then the, uh, one of the other characters just kind of shows up and it's just this guy who we really have very little context as to who the fuck he is. Just kind of shows up, uh, and starts sorting people into groups.

[14:34] Jesse McAnally: So the two groups, it's not groups of whether they belong in the asylum or not. It's just two arbitrary groups. We don't even know what he's sorting by or anything of that nature. He's just sorting by logic, according to him and the song, but he's not sorting by shit.

[14:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I feel like the idea is that he was supposed to be part of the asylum or something. I don't know.

[14:58] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, he's a crazy person.

[15:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the context of the... Like that's the idea though. Like, he so he's sorting, he's sorting them in like, uh, in an insane way. Uh into uh group A and group one. Um, which means that and no one knows whether they're sort of into the quote unquote crazy people into the normal people, which causes an overall rift between them.

[15:21] Jesse McAnally: So he has sown dissent through basically putting them into groups.

[15:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And this is where it just kind of everything gets fucking murky and weird as fuck for me. So like Hapgood falls, Hapgood in and uh the nurse like fall in love or something.

[15:40] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she can only be in confident when French.

[15:45] Andrew DeWolf: When French, when she pretends to be a French woman, she's confident.

[15:49] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, she shows up as a French woman, uh pretend to be a French woman, and she can only be confident when she is French, and she thinks that Hapgood can teach her how to be confident when she isn't French. Um, the overall metaphor for that is learning how to whistle.

[16:07] Andrew DeWolf: And that's why the show is called Anyone Can Whistle. Because you if you if you can't be a French woman, you should learn how to whistle. The most relatable thing in the world is, you know what? I can't be confident if I'm not French and wearing a wig. Like, I feel that.

[16:27] Jesse McAnally: Ugh. So many too many shows recently about characters that aren't confident without wigs.

[16:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Rowie really needs people that need com oh and gain confidence with just wigs.

[16:36] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, um, that's oh, what a wild time. And then that's only act one and act two. And this is one of the rare three-act musicals. Um, which is a choice.

[16:44] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and then I don't even here's the thing, Andrew. I don't even know what happens in act three. I just experience it, and it's well, half of it's like a dance, like a ballet. So it becomes so vague and strange that it's just it's up for interpretation. It's just whatever. Somehow things go back to normal somewhat. And then uh I guess at the end there's a new miracle somewhere else, and then everyone picks up and goes.

[17:20] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, the new nurse goes over there to disprove that one. But like it's wild. And it's really, it's really wild. This feels like it should be based on a book, right? Or some kind of weird New York Times article. But no, this is you could have written anything.

[17:44] Andrew DeWolf: Now it's just the real issue is it's so hard to fucking follow because there's like the character like motivations don't matter in a sense. Like the the nurse isn't motivated by anything. There isn't there's like the mayor is like sort of the villain, but like it doesn't really mount to anything. It's so fucking weird.

[18:11] Jesse McAnally: Like there's just so much weirdness in this. And just even the premise alone is just like, oh, well, there's just a town where there's an like an asylum, and that like the town is poor, but the asylum is like not, and it's I I don't even know.

[18:26] Andrew DeWolf: And the mayor's obsessed with people liking her, and that's her only like she has a clear goal, which is the reason why it gets murky who the main character is. Because we do a lot of work to set up the mayor, Cora Luther Cooper or something like that. Um, we know her goals and we get why she's doing what she's doing. No, they aren't ethical, no, they are very murky, but I get why she's doing it.

[18:51] Jesse McAnally: And then we introduce Faye, who has Faye reminds me of like Marta from Knives Out, where they're like this other being there that has the weirdest fatal flaw, which is, you know, I gotta be French if I gotta get if I have confidence. I gotta have this wig on and pretend. But it's like that's not even like her initial motivation, though. Her initial motivation was like, I want to disprove this miracle that's happening, or something like that.

[19:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I um, but like that doesn't even like come into play later on. It's just it's just like it's the catalyst, and that's it. I mean it kind of it kind of does fucking bizarre. It kind of does because at the end she's like, I have to disprove this miracle, and Dr. Hapgood is like, let's just run away together. This is fucking nuts. It's much easier. And he's like, No, I must do my duty as a person or something. And then they sing a sad song, and then she goes to disprove the miracle. Which I don't know if it works or not, but I don't remember. This thing is nuts.

[19:52] Jesse McAnally: Liz, I do have a very specific question for you. Yes regarding how this uses mental illness not to show characters with mental illness, but as a symbol for something greater. Like mental illness as a symbol rather than human beings.

[20:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I don't there's a lot of things like this in the world. There's a lot of things set in like mental hospitals, like that exists on in media. In the case of this, it's they kind of play it for laughs completely in a way. Like they don't sh- Well, I think isn't the idea that like they get mixed together and you can't no one can tell them apart because really there's not that much difference.

[20:31] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, there's not also and then there's like the there's like a gag that's like, oh, the audience is actually the ones who's crazy.

[20:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Yeah, haha audience who knows. Well, also the the people that are in being treated at this beatnik beatnik beatnik building or whatever the fuck it is, uh, are dressed exactly the same as the townspeople, which is why everyone is confused. And it's a it's just a strange little thing. And I wish it was based on something, because then the metaphor might be clearer. But I don't know what anyone is going for in this? Because it could be like we're all a little crazy, or we shouldn't mistreat mentally ill people, or we should we should be better people in general. Like, I don't know what the narrative wants.

[21:13] Jesse McAnally: The other strange thing to me that like it's like a plot element, but it doesn't matter as well, is that the town is like poor.

[21:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:22] Jesse McAnally: Like that's brought up in like the opening number, and then it just doesn't have any real relevance to the plot. The only town the town is poor in the mental hospital, known as the cookie jar, is the only place that makes the money somehow.

[21:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but it like it doesn't make sense.

[21:38] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. So like, what is that because it's not that it doesn't make sense. Like I get like I understand what they're what it is. I just don't understand why.

[21:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:47] Jesse McAnally: Why it is.

[21:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the why of the why of it.

[21:48] Jesse McAnally: The why of it all is where a lot of this show loses me. It's like, why is I think a lot of this plot is the why. The issue is the why.

[22:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I can explain the plot.

[22:03] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[22:03] Andrew DeWolf: And like, it sort of makes sense what happens, but like, why does it happen? I can tell you what Faye Apple does in the narrative, but I can't tell you why she makes any of these decisions.

[22:14] Jesse McAnally: Like, I'm not sure. Why does Sudden Awake and become French? I have a question for you guys because this was uh off lobbed uh criticism of this show thrown by critics, and I was wondering if you felt this. Um, they thought that this show felt up its own ass, high and mighty, and pretentious.

[22:34] Andrew DeWolf: Um time specifically said that he and Arthur had written a piece as if they were the two smartest kids in the class in the back row, of course. Ryley making fun of the teacher as well as the fellow students, demonstrating how far ahead of the established wisdom we were.

[22:48] Jesse McAnally: Um do we agree that that is it? Uh is this show too far up its ass to actually be entertaining?

[22:56] Andrew DeWolf: Um, that's a baby.

[22:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Because I have I didn't see the original version, so I don't know how they staged it or what what got changed down the line, and I could see how um goofing on the audience and like having this sort of meta meta elements to the show, and especially having something where it's so fucking weird and like as you said, experimental could definitely feel like uh oh, I'm so smart. Look at what we did. We did this when we should have done this, but it's just like, yeah, but you really should have done that.

[23:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you know. I mean, I see the argument, but I also see like this show is so stupid and nonsensical that I can't see it as pretentious. Like, it's just like a bunch of shit happening like over and over, and they don't tell you why anyone's doing anything.

[23:52] Jesse McAnally: Like, why is the mayor kinda evil and kind of not? I don't know.

[23:57] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Santine was the only one that has some motivation.

[24:00] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, the mayor has some motivation, she has financial motivation, but then she later says the doctor's taking too much attention for me. I must marry him.

[24:07] Andrew DeWolf: No, she just likes like I don't think it's the money thing. She wants people to like her, and she thinks that getting the town more money will get people to like it.

[24:14] Jesse McAnally: Which is weird.

[24:14] Andrew DeWolf: So that's why she's upset when someone else is liked more than her.

[24:17] Jesse McAnally: That's true.

[24:19] Andrew DeWolf: That's true.

[24:21] Jesse McAnally: Um everyone else is a little lost. So I have a hard time contextualizing this into 1964 into a brand new composer. Like, I can't imagine who would be a new composer of this day.

[24:31] Andrew DeWolf: Michael R. Jackson coming up with his follow-up to a strange loop and being the strange absurdist kind of show that honestly, with him specifically, I would actually expect that.

[24:40] Jesse McAnally: I'm trying to think of any other uh but I I trying to contextualize it instead of within the pantheon of Steven Sondheim, the most prolific composer writer of the 20th century, um, and just trying to say it as like another piece of theater.

[24:56] Andrew DeWolf: Um Sondheim, 30 years distance, was quoted saying this um during an AIDS benefit performance of the show. Saying it's a show that is better on records than it is on stage because it issues the issues it satirizes are no longer relevant.

[25:10] Jesse McAnally: Its primary subject was nonconformity. Four years later it was 1968, and everybody nonconformed. And being not a non-conformist was in its own way, conformity.

[25:20] Andrew DeWolf: So it was at the wrong time, but was it too early, too late? Like if it came out today with these same messages of conforming and being along with cookie cutter human beings, would that be effective today?

[25:35] Jesse McAnally: Maybe maybe there's there's like a change in in the uh in the culture, and this would fit in better back in the 60s.

[25:43] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, because like you you were mentioning beatniks, right? That's not a fucking thing.

[25:49] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. No.

[25:50] Andrew DeWolf: There's no there's no cultural equivalent TikTok that's going on right now, which might happen in like five years, but I can't predict TikTok.

[25:58] Jesse McAnally: So but Beatniks as a as a cultural movement is gone and there's no replacement.

[26:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[26:06] Jesse McAnally: Like there is no current version of Beatniks. There's nothing like that.

[26:10] Andrew DeWolf: So I mean, you can see the development from the beatnik movement to the hippie movement, where things like hair and all that, and you know, the the things that kinda came alongside with the Vietnam War and like burning your uh that's the thing, though.

[26:25] Jesse McAnally: Draft card.

[26:26] Andrew DeWolf: They went to the hippie movement, but then after the hippie movement, they didn't go anywhere.

[26:29] Jesse McAnally: It's just they just are gone.

[26:31] Andrew DeWolf: Well, then that became the hipster movie.

[26:33] Jesse McAnally: I still think hippies in the cultural sense exist.

[26:37] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe not in the actual political sense.

[26:41] Jesse McAnally: Hippies became yuppies who then became hipsters.

[26:46] Andrew DeWolf: It became commodified.

[26:47] Jesse McAnally: But the I guess hipsters still exist.

[26:49] Andrew DeWolf: Like hipsters are never going away.

[26:51] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[26:51] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, not the to the degree it was years ago.

[26:54] Jesse McAnally: But yeah.

[26:55] Andrew DeWolf: Hipster's like a term, and I don't think it really means anything anymore.

[26:59] Jesse McAnally: Because it now it just means like when when someone says hipster, it's like I like something that's like small.

[27:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like I like in an indie movie or something, and then you're like, oh, you're a hipster.

[27:10] Jesse McAnally: Or or or it's more specifically a contrarian in a sense, is like, oh, you don't like popular thing, you're a hipster.

[27:17] Andrew DeWolf: Um I don't know if hipster is like a type of person anymore, though.

[27:21] Jesse McAnally: It's just like the idea that like your favorite band is some indie band that only plays in Brooklyn three nights per year or some shit.

[27:27] Andrew DeWolf: Like that's a hipster.

[27:30] Jesse McAnally: Would they identify themselves as hipsters?

[27:33] Andrew DeWolf: No, because it would other people identify them as hipsters.

[27:41] Jesse McAnally: Well, they uh they would say it derogatorily.

[27:44] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think they say it as like a this they're part of that movement.

[27:49] Jesse McAnally: Also, Jess, you're actually kind of right about Michael R. Jackson. His newest project is the Book of the Teeth musical. It's weird, but I think I prefer a bold take like that.

[27:59] Andrew DeWolf: Um considering him. Um, can I read one of the most savage reviews in history in our preview segment today?

[28:07] Jesse McAnally: It is one of those off-quoted uh ones written by Howard Tau Tobin um in 1964.

[28:14] Andrew DeWolf: Sure. So the the opening statement I read earlier there's no law saying something in a musical uh something saying something in a musical, but it's unconstitutional to omit imagination and wit. An attempt to be meaningful anyone can whistle forgets to offer much entertainment. Mr. Lawrence's book lacks the fantasy that would make the idea work, but his staging has not improved matters. Mr. Sondheim has written several passing songs, but not enough for of them to give the musical wings. Not even a remarkable dancing ensemble, which exudes Herbert Ross's amusing, dazzling patterns, can write the balance of concept weighed down by its own crude crudity.

[28:50] Jesse McAnally: The intention of Anyone Can Whistle is to suggest that the best hope for the world's sanity lies in madness towards the school. It conjures up a town full of decay, a powerful mayor with a crooked henchman, and a miracle having flowing water from a rock, a nurse who believes in scientific and practical, and a stranger who is mistaken for a new doctor who turns out to be a candidate for the community mental institution, or cookie jar, as Mr. Lawrence likes to call it. The performers yell rather than talk and run rather than walk. The insistence on high pressure cannot cover up the sloppiness of the book and the lack of laughter in the lines. It works best when there is dancing. The dancing is the cream of Anyone Can Whistle.

In the second act, there's a dreamlike nightmarish ballad, full of anger, fluid, diverting designs. And in the third, a chase roundup to the cookie jar takes the form of inventive whirlwind waltzes. Um yeah, it was lambasted. Um, mixed to negative, as you would call it today on Wikipedia. It's only good when they're dancing.

[29:54] Andrew DeWolf: That's see, that's uh That's like the reverse of a chess review.

[29:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's not a good sign, though, because like a lot of this is sort of plot centric. Like, this isn't a show where they just break into dance numbers at all times. So saying it's only good when they're dancing is not a good review for the show. Andrew, why don't you take a look at the Ben Brantley one from 2010, nearly 30 years after the original run?

[30:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, so this is um obviously reviewing a newer version of it. The version that we watched with Sutton Foster and Raul Esparza, the Encores production.

[30:33] Jesse McAnally: Oh, excellent. So this is actually the one we were talking about.

[30:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, exactly that. Alright, so Ben Brantley, um, talking about the same show we watched.

[30:44] Andrew DeWolf: It's not as if New York hasn't known its share of power addicted, egomaniac mayors.

[30:50] Jesse McAnally: I mean, tell me about it. What about right now, huh? Rudy Giuliani.

[30:52] Andrew DeWolf: What's he guys?

[30:55] Jesse McAnally: Oh, geez.

[30:55] Andrew DeWolf: This is Rudy.

[30:56] Jesse McAnally: I'm assuming you're sorry about Rudy.

[30:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I'll check. Who's the mayor right now?

[31:01] Jesse McAnally: I've not heard good things about him either.

[31:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[31:04] Jesse McAnally: Um, although Rudy, I mean Rudy, that boy, he's melting.

[31:09] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, uh.

[31:11] Jesse McAnally: He's still melting to this.

[31:13] Jesse McAnally: But there's something special about Cora Hoover Hooper, the impeccably coifed uh basket case who runs the broken down little town in Anyone Can Whistle. Steven Sondheim and Arthur Laurents muddled musical from 1964, which is stylishly exploring its own identity crisis at City Center this weekend.

[31:33] Andrew DeWolf: Cora has assets that the Bloombergs and Giuliani's and coaches of the world have sadly lacked, a Jackie Kennedy style wardrobe, dancing legs to die for, and get this fellas, her own private backup quartet.

[31:50] Jesse McAnally: As embodied by Donna Murphy, her dishonorable honor turns stark raving political ambition into knock 'em dead floor show, the likes of which City Hall has never seen.

[32:03] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so he, Ben Brantley, is fully on board with the mayor as the main character.

[32:09] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[32:10] Andrew DeWolf: That's I mean, it all depends on what famous actor you put in the lead.

[32:15] Jesse McAnally: Also the mayor.

[32:18] Andrew DeWolf: The mayor at the time of New York was Michael Bloomberg.

[32:21] Jesse McAnally: Um he said he says Bloomberg.

[32:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he listed a bunch, but the current mayor in 2011 was Michael Bloomberg.

[32:28] Jesse McAnally: So he's implying Michael Bloomberg needs a bunch of backup dancers.

[32:32] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, he's not wrong.

[32:34] Jesse McAnally: That's true. He might have gotten re-elected.

[32:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, well, he did get re-elected. He left in 2013.

[32:40] Jesse McAnally: Uh if you leave, you didn't get re-elected.

[32:43] Andrew DeWolf: True.

[32:45] Jesse McAnally: So I win.

[32:47] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, alright.

[32:48] Jesse McAnally: Here we go. The idea that it's the wackos who are sane and vice versa was a cornerstone of 1960s terror culture.

[33:00] Andrew DeWolf: That was vice versa, is what he meant to say, but vice versa, it's funnier.

[33:04] Jesse McAnally: That's not what I meant to say.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: That's said it that was a good thing.

[33:06] Jesse McAnally: That was very that was a very carte blanche moment.

[33:11] Andrew DeWolf: It's fun to say things that way.

[33:16] Jesse McAnally: It's true. That was a decade when you're crazy became the highest of compliments. And I suppose that it could be argued that Anyone Can Whistle was ahead of its time in advancing this notion, given that movies with similar themes like King of Hearts and The Graduate would soon become tales maniac talismanic.

[33:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I don't think so.

[33:42] Jesse McAnally: I don't think he's trying to say it.

[33:44] Andrew DeWolf: Favorites of young Americans.

[33:46] Jesse McAnally: You know, he's right. Is this why uh like boomers love posting stuff like my family is so crazy? We're all insane.

[33:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[33:58] Jesse McAnally: It's we love that. You know the photo of the girl with the chips on her head giving peace signs, the famous one where it's like, my girl's so crazy, lol lover.

[34:09] Andrew DeWolf: I think about that a lot.

[34:12] Jesse McAnally: I mean, have you seen you've seen the stuff I'm talking about where there's like a picture of a minion and it's like I'm so crazy that the people in the white coats keep knocking on the door.

[34:23] Andrew DeWolf: It's just like okay.

[34:25] Jesse McAnally: I looked at the picture of this girl with the chips on her head, and I found a bunch of very targeted t-shirts about your awesome girlfriends that always show up on Facebook ads.

[34:36] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not sure what is worse, a wife guy or a girlfriend guy.

[34:41] Jesse McAnally: That I love my crazy girlfriends, so please stay away from me.

[34:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, yep.

[34:47] Jesse McAnally: Uh God, you know what? I think we gotta split up and talk about the crazies that are supporting us on Patreon.

[34:55] Andrew DeWolf: How about we go into that?

[34:56] Jesse McAnally: I just want to talk about the music, so we just need to be able to do that.

[35:01] Andrew DeWolf: I'm trying, it's some guys.

[35:04] Jesse McAnally: We're going to the songs now, okay?

[35:06] Andrew DeWolf: Mid show.

[35:07] Jesse McAnally: We'll go to the songs after we shill.

[35:15] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys.

[35:16] Jesse McAnally: Sorry to interrupt you, Mill the show, but we've got a shill in you and all you crazies out there. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely crazy people over at Patreon.

[35:26] Andrew DeWolf: You loonies.

[35:28] Jesse McAnally: Um Patreon's this place where you can support us. Get Patreon meetups where we're having a few of those once a month, and we're gonna get back to them soon. I'm excited.

[35:37] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I gotta announce one today. That's on me.

[35:40] Jesse McAnally: Um but we also have commentaries.

[35:47] Andrew DeWolf: Um yeah, I'm not a big fan.

[35:49] Jesse McAnally: Um it's growing on me.

[35:50] Andrew DeWolf: It's like a that's like a mole.

[35:52] Jesse McAnally: It's bad.

[35:54] Andrew DeWolf: I don't like it.

[35:54] Jesse McAnally: I won't.

[35:55] Andrew DeWolf: I I'm not gonna defend it.

[35:57] Jesse McAnally: I love trash too, but man, not that kind.

[36:01] Andrew DeWolf: Um and we also have old commentaries.

[36:04] Jesse McAnally: Like me and Andrew did a commentary at Hocus Pocus a few years ago.

[36:07] Andrew DeWolf: I don't even remember doing that, but apparently we did.

[36:10] Jesse McAnally: Um, so you go check that out. But our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Danielle Rennox, Jess the Stampede, Ewan Cassie, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, Lithanial, Stacey Coomb, Joseph Evan Green, Mary Lou Choquette, John Vanals, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Jen A C, Scootin' the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Nothing Incertain Except Beth and Texas.

[36:29] Andrew DeWolf: You guys are all in group A.

[36:30] Jesse McAnally: Then we've got Thesbian Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Chris Marco, KG Maria Anastasio, Trevi Joseph, RJ Norriga, Julia McClennon, Bjorn Herman, Horiana Fraser, Sammy the Adequate Amount Jacobson, Kaylee Blazier, uh Villainous Miss, Sophia Annali, the Omega Geek, Paige Pearson, Matty Workle, and Care Bear Cub.

[36:49] Andrew DeWolf: You are in all group A.

[36:51] Jesse McAnally: Alisa Erdman, Anna Loscatova, Sarah Den Bleckier, Evan Ball, Zachary Torres, Mor Rora Morasso, Mara Foy Farloy, Lisa L, Possessed Washing Machine, Nick Rotten, Puffy Boy, Sidney Hicks, Anna Beale, Billy Clifton, Gold Plated Kiki Mora, Julia Ball's the daughter, Emma, Grace, and Cara Ba Balda.

[37:14] Andrew DeWolf: They all give us money.

[37:16] Jesse McAnally: What group are they in?

[37:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, what group are they in?

[37:19] Jesse McAnally: They are the undecided.

[37:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah.

[37:26] Jesse McAnally: Group one, group A, and group I.

[37:28] Andrew DeWolf: For like the Roman numeral one.

[37:32] Jesse McAnally: I'm gonna give a group dot as if you know a dot that starts a list.

[37:39] Andrew DeWolf: Um let's get back to the show.

[37:47] Jesse McAnally: Alright, let's get into this. Me and my town with Cora Hoover Hooper and her boys.

[38:00] Andrew DeWolf: Hi there, Cora.

[38:01] Jesse McAnally: What's you?

[38:02] Andrew DeWolf: I'm quite fast and I'm feeling blue.

[38:04] Jesse McAnally: And who took over the bankruptcy?

[38:06] Andrew DeWolf: Me, boys, me.

[38:07] Jesse McAnally: CC me boys me.

[38:15] Andrew DeWolf: Tell us, Cora, how you are!

[38:17] Jesse McAnally: I just got back from the reservoir.

[38:21] Andrew DeWolf: Dry boys drop.

[38:22] Jesse McAnally: My mind!

[38:23] Andrew DeWolf: Draw boys drop.

[38:32] Jesse McAnally: A lady has responsibilities and civic pride.

[38:36] Andrew DeWolf: Civic pride!

[38:37] Jesse McAnally: Look around now! What do I see?

[38:39] Andrew DeWolf: I see no cross!

[38:40] Jesse McAnally: No crops!

[38:41] Andrew DeWolf: I see no business.

[38:42] Jesse McAnally: No business.

[38:43] Andrew DeWolf: To the north, to the top, I'll be hopeful, and not to the east, to the west!

[38:46] Jesse McAnally: I see a terrible depression all over the town!

[38:48] Andrew DeWolf: Oh the terrible depression!

[38:49] Jesse McAnally: Terrible depression!

[38:55] Andrew DeWolf: Lady has responsibilities!

[38:57] Jesse McAnally: Responsibility!

[38:58] Andrew DeWolf: To all my pool stop!

[39:07] Jesse McAnally: I too, when I run on my political campaign, demand in my writer that four men must follow me around and be my backup singers forever.

[39:16] Andrew DeWolf: They're my boys.

[39:17] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, you're my boys!

[39:19] Andrew DeWolf: And you fist bump them because you're all straight.

[39:21] Jesse McAnally: Every day is for the boys.

[39:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um this song is really cool, really fun, really funny. Like it's a call and response song, which I don't think Sondheim does very often.

[39:33] Jesse McAnally: It's very different.

[39:36] Andrew DeWolf: I like a lot of the songs in this show.

[39:40] Jesse McAnally: And uh Yeah, I think the concept of the mayor with the boys is absolutely fucking funny as fuck, and I can understand why you would want the mayor to be the main character because of it.

[39:53] Andrew DeWolf: Um I'm down with it.

[39:55] Jesse McAnally: I'm down with the fucking clown here. I want some boys.

[39:58] Andrew DeWolf: Or a clown.

[39:59] Jesse McAnally: I want some boys to follow me around and do backup dancing. Like what's going on in my life? It sets you up for a different kind of show.

[40:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I think that it's really, really I think the songs really work.

[40:12] Jesse McAnally: That's the issue.

[40:13] Andrew DeWolf: Like, the me and my town sets up what she's struggling with, why she's representing it, and what kind of character she is, and I wanna see more of her, but I also outside of the song, the rest of the show doesn't live up to that.

[40:26] Jesse McAnally: But I love this song, and I feel like it pairs incredibly well with the following song as well.

[40:31] Andrew DeWolf: The Miracle Song.

[40:32] Jesse McAnally: The Miracle Song, which I also think is a fucking banger.

[40:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, absolutely.

[40:45] Jesse McAnally: This water in the water in the river, water in the deep sea, but water in a rock and miracle of half the miracle.

[40:55] Andrew DeWolf: What are that you walk on? One of the two times you wanna run a rock, what a miracle!

[41:01] Jesse McAnally: This is a miracle, that's me by mine.

[41:08] Andrew DeWolf: The Lord said, let them be water!

[41:14] Jesse McAnally: Let them be filmed and let them all think whatever they want.

[41:33] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you.

[41:38] Jesse McAnally: Um explain what do you love so much about the Miracle Song?

[41:41] Andrew DeWolf: Because I like that one too, but it's it's not the classic from this one.

[41:46] Jesse McAnally: I feel like Miracle Song is a it's a con man song, you know?

[41:50] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I wanted to hear you say it.

[41:52] Jesse McAnally: I wanted to hear you say it.

[41:55] Andrew DeWolf: That sounds so threatening.

[41:57] Jesse McAnally: Oh my god.

[41:58] Andrew DeWolf: The thing with the thing with con men songs is, and honestly, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be 100% straight with you. First time I watched this, I got towards this part, and I was like, oh shit.

[42:11] Jesse McAnally: It's a con man show.

[42:13] Andrew DeWolf: I'm so fucking hyped.

[42:14] Jesse McAnally: And it's not a con this is not a con man show.

[42:17] Andrew DeWolf: It is holy shit.

[42:18] Jesse McAnally: It's not they don't stay consistent in who the con man is.

[42:21] Andrew DeWolf: Because you have this con man song.

[42:22] Jesse McAnally: We're gonna get to the ultimate con man song a little bit later.

[42:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but it's not there's no long con.

[42:28] Jesse McAnally: It's just a bunch of little baby cons, and none of them work.

[42:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's it's like you need the long con.

[42:35] Jesse McAnally: And I was like ready for it to be like, oh man, the rock, like how is this gonna it's gonna like blow up?

[42:41] Andrew DeWolf: It's gonna go like nationwide or something, it's gonna be fucking wild.

[42:44] Jesse McAnally: Um, and I just horror stop plot.

[42:48] Andrew DeWolf: They just dropped that plot for it.

[42:49] Jesse McAnally: They're just like, never mind.

[42:52] Andrew DeWolf: We don't don't care about that anymore.

[42:54] Jesse McAnally: We're done.

[42:55] Andrew DeWolf: Uh so you know, but but Miracle Song, still still con man song.

[43:04] Jesse McAnally: Love it.

[43:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, but here's where the structure gets confusing, because then we have what is our main character's I Want song, um, one song away from the end of the act one of this three-act musical and the in There Won't Be Trumpets, which is a fucking banger, a very famous song sung in so many auditions that I've heard so many times before this, um, that I had already predestined into my own brain of what kind of song would be at what point of the show, and it is not that.

[43:31] Jesse McAnally: It is a good song, um, and it's very, very showing of this kind of character, but it's for a character that we barely know.

[43:51] Andrew DeWolf: He may be daring, he may be dashing, or maybe he's a farmer.

[44:01] Jesse McAnally: I can wait.

[44:03] Andrew DeWolf: What's another day?

[44:05] Jesse McAnally: He has lots of the hills to climb.

[44:09] Andrew DeWolf: And the hero doesn't come till the neck of time.

[44:20] Jesse McAnally: Oh, whistles tooting to guarantee.

[44:28] Andrew DeWolf: But sure as shooting.

[44:30] Jesse McAnally: I'll know him when I see him.

[44:35] Andrew DeWolf: Don't know when, don't know where.

[44:38] Jesse McAnally: And I can't even say that I care.

[44:41] Andrew DeWolf: All I know is the minute I turn, and he's suddenly there.

[44:47] Jesse McAnally: I won't be Trump.

[44:51] Andrew DeWolf: There I go to Trump.

[44:55] Jesse McAnally: Oh me Trump.

[45:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[45:05] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[45:07] Andrew DeWolf: Like we just met her.

[45:09] Jesse McAnally: We just met her, which is fine if we didn't already have twenty, thirty minutes of musical already past us.

[45:21] Andrew DeWolf: I think personally I subscribe to the idea that Faye is supposed to be the lead.

[45:26] Jesse McAnally: That would make sense.

[45:27] Andrew DeWolf: I also survived the idea.

[45:30] Jesse McAnally: So but like it it's true.

[45:33] Andrew DeWolf: She doesn't like we already have like two songs with the mayor.

[45:36] Jesse McAnally: By the time we even get here.

[45:39] Andrew DeWolf: Before we even we even have met this character, we already have two introducing songs for the mayor, explaining their motives and then what they're gonna do.

[45:47] Jesse McAnally: So, like who's this?

[45:51] Andrew DeWolf: Popping in.

[45:52] Jesse McAnally: The intention could be like this is the villa, this is the evil half of the plot, and this is like the good person who's gonna fix it thing, but why you have two sick bangers for the maybe evil lady.

[46:05] Andrew DeWolf: Which it's it's confusing.

[46:08] Jesse McAnally: It's confusing.

[46:10] Andrew DeWolf: And only made more confusing when we introduce another brand new character and give him the greatest song ever, and another con man song called Simple.

[46:22] Jesse McAnally: Well, I'm going to examine them according to the principles of logic.

[46:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[46:32] Jesse McAnally: Who is who?

[46:33] Andrew DeWolf: You are you, I'm me.

[46:36] Jesse McAnally: Simple, simple, simple, simple as A B C.

[46:42] Andrew DeWolf: Simple as one, two, three.

[46:45] Jesse McAnally: Doctor, which on that line is what?

[46:48] Andrew DeWolf: One is one, two is two, who is what, and which is who.

[46:52] Jesse McAnally: No one's always what they seem to be.

[46:56] Andrew DeWolf: Uh for instance, you saw third from the left with a manly good looks.

[47:00] Jesse McAnally: Will you come forward, please, Mr.

[47:02] Andrew DeWolf: Hapgood.

[47:03] Jesse McAnally: I thought your name was Hapgood, Doctor.

[47:05] Andrew DeWolf: Well, calling the patient by my name, he identifies with me immediately. We have an instant transference and thereby save five years of psychoanalysis.

[47:12] Jesse McAnally: Brilliant.

[47:14] Andrew DeWolf: Now then, Mr.

[47:15] Jesse McAnally: Hapgood.

[47:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, just call me happy, sir.

[47:18] Jesse McAnally: Or George.

[47:19] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, George.

[47:20] Jesse McAnally: Thank you, George.

[47:21] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you.

[47:22] Jesse McAnally: Now then, George, when you were a child, a boy, you were a boy.

[47:26] Andrew DeWolf: I was a manly little fellow, sir.

[47:29] Jesse McAnally: Then I'm sure there was a saying that you learn and have used ever since to govern your life. Um, a motto, a watch cry.

[47:33] Andrew DeWolf: A watch cry.

[47:37] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:39] Andrew DeWolf: I am the master of my fate and the captain of my soul.

[47:42] Jesse McAnally: Good Habgood.

[47:43] Andrew DeWolf: Now then, married?

[47:44] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:45] Andrew DeWolf: Two children?

[47:45] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:46] Andrew DeWolf: Two TV sets?

[47:47] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:47] Andrew DeWolf: Two martinis?

[47:48] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:49] Andrew DeWolf: Bank on Friday?

[47:49] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:50] Andrew DeWolf: Golf on Saturday?

[47:51] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:51] Andrew DeWolf: Church on Sunday?

[47:52] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:53] Andrew DeWolf: Do you vote?

[47:53] Jesse McAnally: Yes, sir.

[47:54] Andrew DeWolf: Only for the man who wins.

[47:56] Jesse McAnally: Only for the man who wins.

[47:58] Andrew DeWolf: Only for the man who wins.

[47:59] Jesse McAnally: Alright.

[48:00] Jesse McAnally: Holy shit. This is like change. It like wakes you up and makes you be sit up straight and be like, what did I just experience with this song?

[48:08] Andrew DeWolf: By this point, we've already like, we've already dropped the plot line we started with.

[48:12] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[48:13] Andrew DeWolf: We're on something else already.

[48:14] Jesse McAnally: We're two songs later.

[48:16] Andrew DeWolf: We're done with that.

[48:17] Jesse McAnally: We're done with all that.

[48:18] Andrew DeWolf: But we've drafted, we've dropped the Miracle Rock plot, and we're on the there's a bunch of escaped convicts in the town plot.

[48:24] Jesse McAnally: Not escaped convicts, escaped beatniks in the town plot, and we must figure it out.

[48:29] Andrew DeWolf: Like.

[48:30] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[48:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um, this is the part in the show that sometime says basically audiences turned on it.

[48:37] Jesse McAnally: His note in finishing the hat was this last conceit exemplifies what Peter Schaefer meant by our condesc con uh condensation towards the audience.

[48:46] Andrew DeWolf: The first act had a glib smug tone that is someone funny and often clever, but more often irritatingly arch.

[48:53] Jesse McAnally: There's a very thin line between smart and smart ass, and we overstepped it.

[48:57] Andrew DeWolf: The second and third acts were a better mix of the satire and feeling.

[49:00] Jesse McAnally: So this is a song, and the moment at the end of it where he calls the audience mad.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: He's like, okay, we're we're too far up our own asses.

[49:10] Jesse McAnally: It's it's a moment.

[49:12] Andrew DeWolf: I think I appreciate it as a individual song and as an introduction to this character in a way, it just doesn't really fit into the show quite right.

[49:25] Jesse McAnally: Um this song is uh 13 minutes long, by the way.

[49:29] Andrew DeWolf: Uh and every second of it is incredible.

[49:34] Jesse McAnally: This is So uh this might be sometime's longest song, maybe one of them.

[49:40] Andrew DeWolf: Into the woods.

[49:41] Jesse McAnally: Is oh the first song of Into the Woods is the longest.

[49:44] Andrew DeWolf: It has to be.

[49:45] Jesse McAnally: I can't I can't imagine anyone longer.

[49:48] Andrew DeWolf: Let's see what Spotify says about that.

[49:50] Jesse McAnally: Uh yeah, I I'm willing, I'm willing to be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that on Spotify.

[49:56] Andrew DeWolf: Prologue into the woods is 12 minutes.

[49:59] Jesse McAnally: Ooh.

[49:59] Andrew DeWolf: Ooh.

[50:00] Jesse McAnally: Simple as 13 minutes.

[50:03] Andrew DeWolf: Simple as long.

[50:05] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[50:07] Andrew DeWolf: It's the version of Spotify is the original cast recording.

[50:13] Jesse McAnally: This is the longest I've scrolled through a genius.com lyric section, and I've never been happier to scrolling through this many words.

[50:19] Andrew DeWolf: It's so many.

[50:20] Jesse McAnally: Like, oh, if you look on the finishing the hat like actual book, it is like an entire page of just lines from it.

[50:27] Andrew DeWolf: Like it is actually.

[50:29] Jesse McAnally: Because I if you don't own your own copy of Finishing the Hat, um, you probably should because this thing.

[50:35] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know if the show's gonna come out again, but like this is how it looks.

[50:40] Jesse McAnally: It's just all text on two giant sheets of paper.

[50:45] Andrew DeWolf: Amazing.

[50:46] Jesse McAnally: Like, just do you wanna do you want to just quickly go over what this song is?

[50:50] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, Jess.

[50:51] Jesse McAnally: Explain the what it goes on.

[50:52] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, I guess I should.

[50:54] Jesse McAnally: Um, we have this incredible character called Hapgood just woesy into the musical.

[51:00] Andrew DeWolf: Um, they think he's a doctor, and he just responds doctor back to them as a joke, and then they're like, well, figure it out.

[51:07] Jesse McAnally: And he just starts assigning these people based on questions, mundane questions he asks them, and they're equally mundane answers and wild and baffling answers into categories, which is what we've referenced throughout either group A or group one, not really giving a shit whether or not they are actually belonging into a specific group of quote unquote crazies or not, um, or cookies or not.

[51:34] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and by the end of it, he he just kind of set them all up to fight each other, and he knew it, and he was just kind of being a little stinker and having a blast doing so.

[51:43] Jesse McAnally: And he's gaslights everyone into thinking they're crazy, including like Cora and all the leaders of this town.

[51:52] Andrew DeWolf: Like anyone that tries to stop him, he just convinces them they're just as mad.

[51:56] Jesse McAnally: They don't know their own names, they don't know his name, but like, and it is an impressive con and increasingly impressive how it's written and constructed.

[52:07] Andrew DeWolf: Like, true.

[52:10] Jesse McAnally: It's incredible.

[52:14] Andrew DeWolf: Then they start fighting each other in act two, like, my god, it's incredible.

[52:18] Jesse McAnally: And I know people talk about this song, but I had not heard it, so it was a joy and a p gift, and I am grateful that we talked about this show because I got to hear that.

[52:27] Andrew DeWolf: The problem is nothing in act two or three comes even close to that moment.

[52:32] Jesse McAnally: Also, I couldn't even tell when act three started, because I was just confused because it just kept going.

[52:37] Andrew DeWolf: Most things don't most times when they perform this, they don't break it up into three acts.

[52:43] Jesse McAnally: Okay, that makes sense.

[52:44] Andrew DeWolf: Per Santan's own statement, he believes this is really the last professional musical that has done three separate acts.

[52:50] Jesse McAnally: And it's probably for the best.

[52:54] Andrew DeWolf: After that, there's no real songs you really gotta talk about aside from the main one.

[52:59] Jesse McAnally: Anyone can whistle.

[53:00] ♪ Musical number: "Anyone Can Whistle" — performed by the cast of "Anyone Can Whistle" ♪

[54:08] Jesse McAnally: Anyone can whistle is fine.

[54:10] Andrew DeWolf: It's fine, yeah.

[54:12] Jesse McAnally: For the title song, it's not that like impressive or anything.

[54:16] Andrew DeWolf: Like there's nothing that like.

[54:18] Jesse McAnally: Like it it's pleasing to listen to, I suppose.

[54:22] Andrew DeWolf: It doesn't sound bad.

[54:24] Jesse McAnally: No.

[54:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um, um I agree.

[54:27] Jesse McAnally: It feels it reminds me a lot of send in the Clowns when we talked about that, where you have this incredible song in the Miller Son, which is really intricate and really Sonti, and all the things I love about him.

[54:41] Andrew DeWolf: And then you follow it up with Send in the Clowns, which is like this boring, dro droning song, and that of course is the one that becomes the hit.

[54:50] Jesse McAnally: It's the same thing here where you have simple, the song that gets me salivating, thinking about how it's constructed, and then we follow it up with anyone can whistle, which is fine and cute.

[55:00] Andrew DeWolf: Um in the finishing the hat book bad.

[55:03] Jesse McAnally: No, it's not fine.

[55:05] Andrew DeWolf: Like, there's nothing wrong with it.

[55:06] Jesse McAnally: No.

[55:07] Andrew DeWolf: Fine.

[55:08] Jesse McAnally: Not even Can you guess what like Sontime for each song in this book, in both books, he goes through every song he's ever written lyrics for and has a little blurb explaining something after it.

[55:21] Andrew DeWolf: Sometimes it's like his process, sometimes it's a little anecdote.

[55:24] Jesse McAnally: You I am baffled by what he wrote after anything and whisp anyone can whistle.

[55:29] Andrew DeWolf: What did he write?

[55:31] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[55:31] Andrew DeWolf: His quote.

[55:33] Jesse McAnally: Um, and this is it.

[55:35] Andrew DeWolf: And for the title song of this flop musical.

[55:37] Jesse McAnally: Ever since I first performed this song at a benefit concert in 1973, musical theater rhapsodists have appropriated it as my personal statement.

[55:44] Andrew DeWolf: As the MC of a recent concert introduced it with a dramatic inaccuracy anyone can whistle is the only song Steven Sontime has publicly acknowledged to be autobiographical.

[55:54] Jesse McAnally: He is one of many who fallen to the trap of ascribing the character of the art to the character of the artist.

[55:59] Andrew DeWolf: Just as some movie fans thought that Carrie Grant must be uh must have been some unflappably swab as his public persona, or assumed Edward C.

[56:07] Jesse McAnally: Robinson to be a tough, uneducated thug rather than the worldly art collector he actually was.

[56:12] Andrew DeWolf: So some musical theater lovers think of Irving Berlin as an artless super American.

[56:16] Jesse McAnally: Oscar Hammerstein is the good hearted hayseed.

[56:19] Andrew DeWolf: Labels make the labeler feel comfortable and simplify the complications which might blur any image.

[56:25] Jesse McAnally: Reducing the personalities to familiar packages with which shorten the distance between the dreamer and the dream.

[56:31] Andrew DeWolf: To believe that anyone can whistle is my credo is to believe that I'm prototypically repressed intellectual that explains everything about me.

[56:38] Jesse McAnally: Perhaps being tagged cliche as with a cliche shouldn't bother me, but it does, and to my chagrin, I realize it means that I care much more about how I'm perceived than I wish I did.

[56:47] Andrew DeWolf: I like to think this concern has an effect in my work, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has.

[56:54] Jesse McAnally: Hell yeah.

[56:55] Andrew DeWolf: He's fucking s he's salty.

[56:56] Jesse McAnally: Spill the tea, sis.

[56:58] Andrew DeWolf: Go off.

[57:00] Jesse McAnally: He could have said so many things, like, you know, like here's when I first heard this.

[57:04] Andrew DeWolf: No, he's like, bitch, this ain't about me.

[57:06] Jesse McAnally: I'm an artist.

[57:08] Andrew DeWolf: I I wrote for the character.

[57:10] Jesse McAnally: And if you think it's about me, you're being lazy.

[57:15] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, what would they even mean for this song to be about him?

[57:18] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, what's the angle?

[57:20] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, what what the song basically means is I thought I can do a lot of things easy, but the simple things are difficult.

[57:27] Jesse McAnally: Which I I think is the basic remedy, like the basic credo of the sh the show.

[57:32] Andrew DeWolf: Like, uh I think too much and I work too hard, and like the difficult things come easy.

[57:37] Jesse McAnally: Like I can learn to tango easy, but I can't whistle.

[57:40] Andrew DeWolf: Like, you know. Something like that. Um, but I don't know. I just find it fascinating that with this title song, he's just really mad that people accredit it to him personally. That is such a fucking Sondheim way of going about this, which is just like, um, having to—he—I wouldn't call him elitist, but he does definitely have a high opinion of his work and his art and himself. Which is great. And I God bless him. You know, he got the last laugh too, because everyone who likes this song, now they're— we'll never know what Sondheim really has to say about it, other than just it's not about me, fuck you. We'll never know.

[58:27] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it's time for our favorite point in the show, where Andrew updates his ranking of Sondheim musicals. Uh, yes. Yeah, and I think when I found this with Sondheim, I got excited for that part. Andrew, we got your tier list at the bottom here. Why don't you remind people your current order and how you rank things?

[58:49] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, so the tier list is A through D. It's ranked based on itself. So it's only in comparison to the other shows that are on the list. Uh, A is the best, D is the worst. Um, in A tier, we have Sweeney Todd at the top. Um, then we have the Mama Rose uh musical and Into the Woods. Uh, B tier.

[59:13] Andrew DeWolf: Great ones. We have uh, what is it? Follies, Sunday in the Park, uh, Merrily, um, Roadshow. Fuck this one. Roadshow, Roadshow. I was like, R S. God damn it. Your favorite musical of all time. Come on.

[59:27] Andrew DeWolf: I love Roadshow. No, not the frogs, uh, I did like Roadshow. West Side Story, uh, The Frogs, and Company. Uh, Company. Sorry. These are all abbreviated. These are weird abbreviations. So I'm trying to remember what the abbreviations mean. Um, C tier is uh, Assassins, uh, Forum.

[59:47] Andrew DeWolf: So, uh, uh, something on our way to the forum or so, whatever it's called. Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Uh, Pacific Overtures and Passion, which I know are both two of Jess's absolute favorite musicals. So he's mad they're down. Is that why they're so low?

[1:00:03] Jesse McAnally: Passion is my favorite. Uh, like one of my favorites. Uh, Pacific Overtures has one of my favorite songs. Not one of my favorite musicals. I just wanted to make that clarification. The only thing—the only thing in D tier for Sondheim is uh, Evening Primrose, which I think is probably the only thing that'll ever be down there. Um, maybe Riley will hate Do I Hear a Waltz. Or maybe you'll really hate Here We Are. People—I know Here We Are is relatively recent, but people have said it is probably, um, Anyone Can Whistle is probably the closest thing to Here We Are he's ever done.

[1:00:38] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Like, it's very different. I think—oh, I'm like, I'm very, very mixed on this because part of me is like there's actually a solid amount of really good songs in this, which I don't think I would say about like Passion, because I don't remember fucking shit from Passion. I remember the songs I thought they were boring.

[1:01:01] Jesse McAnally: You're fucking wrong.

[1:01:08] Andrew DeWolf: Whatever. This song has—this has way more fun songs. But the story here is like the worst he's ever done. Like the plot and like it's—it's just abysmal. I'm sorry. Like, it's indecipherable, nothing makes any fucking sense, and I don't—you could say that that's on purpose, but it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't—you—you—if you make something bad on purpose, it's still bad.

[1:01:33] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, um, so I don't like—like I'm looking at this and I'm like, does this go above Assassins? And I'm like, no. Does this go above Forum? I think it goes above Forum.

[1:01:49] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. I'm gonna put it in C. Does it go above Forum though? Like, that's the thing. I was thinking, like, maybe you'd actually put this in D.

[1:02:02] Jesse McAnally: I don't think it belongs in D. The songs are too good. It has some really good highs, despite the confusion.

[1:02:07] Andrew DeWolf: The highs. The songs are legitimately too good. It—like, if it was bad—like not bad, but like mediocre songs and the plot, it would go in D. Um, but it's not. I'm gonna put it below Forum. I'm gonna put it right after Forum. Anyone Can Whistle.

[1:02:25] Jesse McAnally: Uh, right. Are you gonna—any adjustments? Specific Overtures and Passion are just—they're down here for a different reason. I just thought they were fucking boring.

[1:02:34] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sorry. I thought you were gonna—I'm not gonna say I put them down there to spite Jess. It's—it's partially that, but not really. It's more that I really did think they were fucking boring.

[1:02:45] Andrew DeWolf: Because I was so tempted to tell Jess I hated Sunday in the Park with George just to spite him, but then I couldn't. Sunday in the Park with George is also kind of boring, but like I felt a little bit more connection to it.

[1:02:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[1:02:59] Andrew DeWolf: I was barely connected to it, but I thought the songs were good, so I'm like, I'll just—I like it. Specific Overtures and Passion, though, it's just like, oh man, this is—this is Sondheim just trying to put me to sleep.

[1:03:12] Jesse McAnally: Sondheim's a little lullaby.

[1:03:13] Andrew DeWolf: Did Jess want to show me his all-time favorite movie, and I was like, it's fine. And he was like, What? I'm like, yeah, it's fine. He was not happy with me that day.

[1:03:21] Jesse McAnally: He was not.

[1:03:26] Andrew DeWolf: Is there any changes to your list? Like, are you still okay with the ranking of everything else?

[1:03:31] Jesse McAnally: So honestly, I'm not sure. I've been looking and thinking about it, but what was your—go ahead.

[1:03:38] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I upon reflection, I think Roadshow needs to be a little lower. I could see Roadshow—like thinking about it more. I—I don't think it—I don't think I would change where it is, but I think I would put it here.

[1:03:51] Andrew DeWolf: I would also put The Frogs higher, considering how much you really felt connected to that one.

[1:03:57] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, you're probably right. I think I put it this low because I thought people would have like a negative reaction to it, and I didn't want to look like I was just being a contrarian, like, ha, I love this one, and you guys all hate it. So I was like, I'll put it down a little lower.

[1:04:12] Andrew DeWolf: But honestly, it's above Merrily. And the only reason why I did that is because I re-listened to both The Frogs and Roadshow along with Anyone Can Whistle today. And I'm just like remembering the episodes, I'm like, man, we were a little too late on the Roadshow, not quite as praiseworthy enough on The Frogs.

[1:04:33] Jesse McAnally: Um, so I—yeah, that was just the only thought I was having. Um, so The Frogs, if you haven't—if you for some reason have been avoiding The Frogs, like—and we said this in the episode a bunch, but I'm gonna say it again because we're doing a Sondheim one. The Frogs fucking rocks.

[1:04:50] Andrew DeWolf: It's really good.

[1:04:50] Jesse McAnally: I'm one of those people. I'm bad. The Frogs is so much better than its reputation would have you believe.

[1:04:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, send me a bootleg.

[1:04:59] Jesse McAnally: I will. What is it? We—we've seen—I remember looking at lists, and it's like the only show that is on like lower on these like Sondheim best musical lists is Roadshow. They're just like, oh, Roadshow's garbage, and The Frogs is just as bad. And it's like, oh man.

[1:05:20] Andrew DeWolf: Was Raúl Esparza in Roadshow?

[1:05:19] Jesse McAnally: Yes, he was.

[1:05:19] Andrew DeWolf: That's why I was a little lighter on it because I was distracted by Raúl Esparza's face, probably.

[1:05:24] Jesse McAnally: Well, he's in this too.

[1:05:26] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so yeah, here is the order. I mean, this is wrong. Um, from the first linking. They put Passion at last, then Roadshow, then Saturday Night, then The Frogs.

[1:05:36] Jesse McAnally: And then Anyone Can Whistle.

[1:05:38] Andrew DeWolf: That feels incorrect.

[1:05:45] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[1:05:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:05:43] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[1:05:43] Andrew DeWolf: If you're putting The Frogs this low on your list, you are making the wrong fucking list.

[1:05:48] Jesse McAnally: Alright, let's do our cheese ratings because I think we've talked enough about the tier list.

[1:05:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Yep.

[1:05:53] Jesse McAnally: Um, I'm gonna just go first because I never go first. Um, I love—I like this musical a lot. Um, when it's great, it's like some—it's transcendently great. When it's rough, you—you can't not feel it. Um, so I am giving this a very specific kind of cheese called Whistle Candy, sold at Ash County Cheese in West Jefferson, North Carolina.

[1:06:18] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I win.

[1:06:19] Jesse McAnally: Alright. Liz, you're next.

[1:06:22] Liz Eston: Uh, um. I wasn't ready, Andrew. Go first.

[1:06:27] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Um, yeah, this is—it's very—it's a very mixed emotions for me. Again, because—and I feel like we just did an episode where I said this, but the highs are really high and the lows are really low. It's like I—I have an issue with shows though that are this confusing.

[1:06:49] Andrew DeWolf: If I have to look at your Wikipedia plot synopsis while I watch it for the second time to understand what the fuck is happening, you did something wrong. You can say that I'm not great at following things, and that may be true, but still—that should just be the end of your sentence.

[1:07:07] Jesse McAnally: I might be dumb.

[1:07:10] Andrew DeWolf: But I'm not stupid.

[1:07:15] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[1:07:16] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so yeah, the music though makes up for it in a big way. Like honestly, just listen to the songs. Like, you don't need to see this. Maybe if you—if there's like a—if there's a local production, I guess you—that's go see it. Um, but if you're just looking for the experience, just fucking listen to the songs.

[1:07:36] Andrew DeWolf: Like, it's all you need. It makes me wonder, because currently on Broadway, there is like a sold-out, like money printing production of Merrily We Roll Along, Sondheim's other very transcendental flop, um, just running right now. Do they think—

[1:07:51] Jesse McAnally: Merrily We Roll Along is just a better show, though.

[1:07:55] Andrew DeWolf: Well, do they think, well, if we put celebrities in this, it'll be a Sondheim musical and that'll print money?

[1:08:01] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but they put celebrities in the Encores production.

[1:08:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but fucking Broadway producers listen to us sometimes, okay? If you're thinking that right now, do The Frogs instead.

[1:08:09] Jesse McAnally: Do The Frogs instead.

[1:08:15] Andrew DeWolf: I haven't seen The Frogs.

[1:08:16] Jesse McAnally: Listen to Andrew. It's just do The Frogs. The person—Frogs events parents will come out.

[1:08:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they'll look and love it.

[1:08:25] Jesse McAnally: Okay. As far as the cheese rating, I'm going to give it uh, Whistle Cheese Sticks from the Whistle Bake Shop. Uh, and they look like uh, fried long cheese sticks. I don't think this is like a real thing, but they look pretty good to me, so I was just like, you know, let's just go with it.

[1:08:42] Jesse McAnally: And I love fried cheese. It's the best. It's not good for you though, which is maybe that's maybe that's what we're going for here. The plot's not good for you, but damn that—the—the fried music.

[1:08:53] Andrew DeWolf: The cheese itself, delicious.

[1:08:57] Jesse McAnally: The long dance—like, uh, now that I'm thinking about it, has Sondheim done like a ballet dance scene like that ever, like ever since or ever before? Like maybe in the Mama Rose musical, like a tiny bit.

[1:09:10] Andrew DeWolf: Definitely not before.

[1:09:11] Jesse McAnally: Definitely not before this, no, because he's—this is like his second major one.

[1:09:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:09:16] Jesse McAnally: Like, okay. We could have had many more dream ballets if this had been a success.

[1:09:23] Andrew DeWolf: So thank your lucky stars, it wasn't.

[1:09:25] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, thank you.

[1:09:33] Liz Eston: Alright. Um, this was fine. I think I agree with both—I agree with both of the—with my fellow co-hosts here. Like, it's—it's low, but the songs are so good. Just listen to it on Spotify. You don't even have to like find a weird YouTube copy.

[1:09:46] Liz Eston: It's literally on Spotify. It's the 60s one with Angela Lansbury. I'm sure it sounds fucking great. Just listen to that. Um, and for my cheese rating, I'm gonna give it an old school cheese ball because it's a big old mixed bag and it's a little old. That—that's how I describe myself too on my Tinder profile.

[1:10:11] Liz Eston: Um, mixed bag lol. Speaking of mixed bags, I'm a little old. Thank you for listening. And please follow us on iTunes and Spotify Musicals with Cheese. Let us know what your cheese rating is, because that's the question on our Spotify today. Let answer it. What do you think?

[1:10:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um, we are on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musicals Cheese, Instagram Musicals Cheese, YouTube H Musicals with Cheese, we're on Patreon at Patreon with Cheese. Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio.

[1:10:41] Jesse McAnally: You're in group A, Juliet. There's some ASMR for you. Our themes are created by Robyn Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for being ableist against the cookies out there.

[1:10:58] Andrew DeWolf: The cookies out of the cookie jar. You know who you are.

[1:11:02] Jesse McAnally: Um, alright. Anything else we have left to say? We're almost out of Sondheims.

[1:11:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, we're in out. We got two more.

[1:11:09] Jesse McAnally: That's really three.

[1:11:10] Andrew DeWolf: Three. That's why.

[1:11:11] Jesse McAnally: We got three more. Some of them might have to go on the wheel.

[1:11:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, some of them might have to be on the wheel.

[1:11:15] Jesse McAnally: No, I think I'm gonna mix two together because you see, Saturday Night, I don't think we're gonna have much to say about. And Here We Are, we don't have a bootleg of. So I'm just gonna squish them together and we'll do one half for act one and other half for act two.

[1:11:31] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, yeah, but maybe Here We Are will be wonderful. I hope at least it'll inspire a good discussion. And that's all I'm asking for.

[1:11:39] Jesse McAnally: Um, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:11:56] Andrew DeWolf: No Roman candles, no angels choir, no sound of distant drumming.