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[0:43] Jess McInally: Alright, folks, let's get you on to the real show.

[0:49] Jess McInally: Hello, I'm Jesse McInally.

[0:52] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:53] Jess McInally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[0:58] Jess McInally: And today we have an extra special guest.

[1:01] Jess McInally: Oh my god, so special.

[1:03] Jess McInally: They were on Ellen. It's so great.

[1:06] Jess McInally: Um, it is impressionist, actress, singer, performer, everything. Christina Bianco.

[1:11] Christina Bianco: Hi guys! So happy to be here.

[1:15] Jess McInally: I'm so happy you're here.

[1:18] Christina Bianco: Yes, I'm asking something.

[1:20] Jess McInally: Oh, that's so great.

[1:22] Christina Bianco: Great.

[1:23] Christina Bianco: No, I'm getting. It was just me. There's other people applauding. You just can't hear them. This isn't live, so I know it's alright.

[1:31] Christina Bianco: I don't I love to perform, but I don't need a full audience. Just a lovely, lovely person to have a conversation with everyone.

[1:40] Jess McInally: So humble.

[1:40] Christina Bianco: I just need one person and I can talk for 20 others. That's basically what it is with me.

[1:46] Jess McInally: Oh, but it's great. And Christina, you decided on the musical we're talking about today. And what is that musical?

[1:51] Christina Bianco: It's Gypsy.

[2:16] Christina Bianco: Come on. I can't not talk about Gypsy. It's one like Hello Dolly. It's one of those like diva shows where everybody, you know, wants to play Mama Rose. Everybody has a favorite Mama Rose. And it's just one of those shows where it's iconic, and nobody really has asked you about the show before, so I thought it'd be an interesting topic for today.

[2:35] Jess McInally: Yeah, and like you do basically every Mama Rose as a voice, but you have I've never found a single recording of you singing like Rose's turn.

[2:44] Christina Bianco: I know, I know. So there's this one song that I spoof the end if I'm a if I may, you know. Um, this song somebody wrote, uh, the Regano brothers wrote a great song for me called What Makes a Diva. And so we spoofed it at the end of that, and that was really early in my sort of, um, you know, Christina Bianco solo show, uh, you know, world. And so I didn't want to belabor it and do it again and again. And then there are so many incredible impressionists out there, and I'm particularly thinking of Christina Petty, who does a lot of the people. She is a great Ethel Merman, and she does a great Angela Lansbury. I dabble in Merman. I don't do Angela Lansbury. So I sort of left it up to her, but then of course, with Patty and Bernadette and Bette Midler, that's sort of my wheelhouse. So I know I really should have done it by now. Maybe maybe I'll give it a try it before this podcast is over.

[3:31] Jess McInally: We'll have to do that. Live on our show.

[3:34] Christina Bianco: It's so you gotta wait till the end to see.

[3:37] Jess McInally: Yeah, exactly. Give you a reason to keep listening.

[3:40] Christina Bianco: Oh my gosh. Gypsy is a 1959 musical with music by Julie Stein, Jules Stein, and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim and a book by Arthur Lawrence. It's loosely based on the 1957 memoirs of Gypsy Rose Lee, the famous striptease artist, and focused mostly on her mother Rose, whose name has become synonymous with the ultimate show business mother, the original Mama June. It follows the dreams and efforts of Rose to raise her two daughters to perform on stage and casts an affectionate eye on the hardships of show business life. Also, it shows the rise and fall of Vaudeville throughout it. The character of Louise is based on Lee, and the character of June is based on Lee's sister, the actress June Havoc. So it went on to be like very well acclaimed.

The original production starred Ethel Merman, and since then almost every leading lady on like the theater world has played Mama Rose since. And it's crazy like staple of musical theater history, where like even Ben Brantley is saying it's the greatest of all American musicals, and everyone has good things to say about this show. And unlike West Side Story, it feels very Sondheimian. Like despite him just doing the lyrics, it feels like a Stephen Sondheim show.

[4:59] Christina Bianco: Now, what is your personal history with Gypsy? When did you first listen or watch it or see it? And how did it enter your life?

[5:08] Christina Bianco: Well, I'm one of those little girls that never got cast in Gypsy. I remember there was this one production. I grew up in Rothland County, New York, and there was this one production, I can't remember where, in Westchester. And I was never, I was never auditioning for Dainty June or Baby June. I just, I don't know why I didn't think the blonde cutesy thing was for me. I definitely saw myself as more as a Louise. And so I went for like little Louise, and I was. This sounds so funny because it's a story of my life. Like I'm too short. Like I was the perfect size for little Dainty June, but I wasn't the right type for Dainty June or Baby June. And then I was always too short for Louise, so I never got cast in the show.

So my memories of it at first was like, oh, Gypsy, because it was that show that like every girl had in their resume but me. Um, but then of course, as I got older, you started looking at, you know, you watch those musicals and you listen to those musicals with new eyes, because you get the layers of it and the true story, and then you start to relate to the other characters, not the kids. So I remember I was watching, um, I had of course seen the Rosalind Russell film, and I liked it and I saw it, but it was Bette Midler's TV version that absolutely blew my mind. And that was when I completely fell in love with Gypsy anew. That was when I understood it, and I just felt like I can't, I know I'm not gonna say any favorites here, I can't say who I like or dislike or whatever, but I could say that I do think that Bette Midler is, uh, to me the most fitting, and that's the world he was the most fitting Mama Rose.

And it's true, I mean, even Gypsy Rose Lee's son is the one who said Bette Midler should be the one to play it. Like it's definitely accurate. Uh, we don't know everything about her personality, obviously, and we know in sort of in stature and in appearance, she was probably more similar to Bernadette Peters than any of the others. But Bette Midler for me was just amazing. And I thought that movie was done beautifully, and that was when I loved it again. And I just, oh Gypsy, I just appreciated it. It was it I don't know why. I also don't typically um love televised or I should say um filmed musicals. I love the real thing. Like uh even with the exception of I think Grease and The Sound of Music and these shows that I definitely saw the movie of before I saw them on stage.

In exception of those, I don't really love any sort of well, I shouldn't say any, but I don't really love the movie musicals as much as I love seeing them live on stage. But that Gypsy knocked my socks off. It's my personal favorite.

[7:49] Jess McInally: So while you wouldn't say that Bette Midler is the best Mama Rose, she is your Mama Rose.

[7:55] Christina Bianco: Like we all have ours.

[7:57] Christina Bianco: Yeah, I think that that's because that's the one that really hit me. And I just think if there was ever a part for her, that was it. Because she's funny too. I think people forget that Mama Rose has to be funny. And I think, sorry if I'm going jumping ahead now, but like, you know, no worries. I I'm as every it's no secret that I, of course, love Bernadette Peters and Patti LuPone, and like people always say, like, oh, Bernadette's so serious. I'm like, serious? Like Sunday in the Park with George, she's hilarious as well as serious. And Into the Woods, she's hilarious. Mack and Mabel, she's hilarious. Yes, all of these shows end up with death and destruction somehow, but she is always so funny, and that's something that I like in what she brought to the part, you know. And Bette Midler is known for being uh absolutely hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time. So I love the Mama Rose that can add the bit of comedy.

[8:45] Jess McInally: And Andrew, this was your first time watching Gypsy. What is your initial?

[8:48] Andrew DeWolf: You literally watched it just a few hours ago. What is your initial reaction coming out of it?

[8:54] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I watched it yesterday, okay.

[8:56] Jess McInally: That's a few hours of it.

[8:58] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I was always the perfect height for Louise, so I will say that.

[9:03] Jess McInally: Um you do look like a back of a cow, I will say.

[9:07] Andrew DeWolf: Hey.

[9:09] Jess McInally: That's hilarious.

[9:10] Andrew DeWolf: I was too short to be the back of a cow. Like, I should put that on my resume.

[9:14] Jess McInally: Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt to make it about me. Please.

[9:19] Andrew DeWolf: Please keep going.

[9:19] Andrew DeWolf: I'm thinking from my chair over there. Jess, our guest is like a total diva. I'm sorry. I can't do this.

[9:27] Jess McInally: Go ahead, go ahead.

[9:27] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sorry. It's wonderful. I love it.

[9:30] Andrew DeWolf: I liked it a lot. I know I say that a lot, but yeah, I mean, it's just it was very good.

[9:38] Jess McInally: He's bringing the insight.

[9:39] Andrew DeWolf: I'm bringing the insight over here.

[9:42] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not here for insight. I'm just here for gut reactions, okay? That's why we bring Christina on, because she's got that emotional connection. She's got the insight.

[9:49] Christina Bianco: Oh my gosh. I have hardly said anything, and I'm already causing problems.

[9:54] Jess McInally: Alright, so tell us more about what you thought when you saw it for the first time.

[9:59] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I saw it for the first time. I didn't know what to expect because I actually didn't know what it was about at all. And with the name Gypsy, I was like, well, it's about like what, traveling gypsies or something.

[10:08] Andrew DeWolf: Which has been an issue recently. People are bringing up that the title is problematic, despite it being literally someone's name.

[10:16] Christina Bianco: It's unbelievable because I think that the people have to put things into perspective. I mean, this is a piece of history. It's a period piece, and that is the name that they used not only for the character, but that way of life was called the Gypsy lifestyle. It might be uh offensive now if you use it in a certain way, but this is this is historic, and you have to you have to honor that in my opinion.

[10:38] Christina Bianco: I mean, yes, I agree, but then again, uh, to go into it in a very more extreme example, and just to play devil's advocate, as much as I hate to do that. Um, if there was a show that just had the N-word in it and it meant something differently, it's that's different.

[10:52] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[10:53] Christina Bianco: I mean, yes, that's I I get what you're saying, and it just it's it's a matter obviously it's a case by case basis.

[10:58] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[10:59] Christina Bianco: Well maybe that one would be a little too far, I think.

[11:03] Andrew DeWolf: It's an extreme example, but like I've heard comparisons made to like that where I'm like, because I'm comp I'm completely of that thought of like it's a different name, it meant something different and all that. Then they're like, but what if it was like this and it meant something different, it was a different time. Like, oh okay.

[11:18] Christina Bianco: Yeah.

[11:19] Andrew DeWolf: Well, moving on.

[11:22] Jess McInally: Threw that wrench into that whole conversation.

[11:25] Jess McInally: Well, welcome back to Musicals with Cheese, where Jess says the N-word.

[11:28] Christina Bianco: Yeah.

[11:30] Jess McInally: I'm gonna be on the news, aren't I?

[11:32] Christina Bianco: Oh god.

[11:33] Jess McInally: Oh boy, this is a problem.

[11:34] Christina Bianco: No, no, we're not.

[11:38] Jess McInally: Okay. Let me talk about my first Mama Rose, then.

[11:42] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[11:43] Jess McInally: My first experience with Gypsy was when I was in um a theater camp and they performed Together Wherever We Go, and I just love that song, and I would giggle every time there's like that third mind rhyme of like the third one is amigos, and that would always make me giggle.

[11:59] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[12:00] Jess McInally: And so I was like, what show is this? And I grew up many years later and watched the Tonys from I believe 2008, and I saw Patti LuPone sing that song. And I'm like, that's my childhood song. I want this show. And so Patti LuPone has always been my first Mama Rose.

[12:17] Andrew DeWolf: And that's one of the more recent ones.

[12:20] Jess McInally: Yeah, okay.

[12:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Cool.

[12:23] Jess McInally: So Patti is my Mama Rose.

[12:25] Christina Bianco: Yeah, no, I listen, I know people that have seen many, and she's still their favorite, or at least the one that they were the most excited about and gave the biggest, you know, impact or whatever. So it's everyone's got their Mama Rose.

[12:38] Christina Bianco: It's funny. I know lots of people have that crazy battle, you know, the Bernadette versus Patti battle. And for me, I deal with it a lot. Like I love both of them for very different reasons. I mean, they're both petite time women from New York. Like, how am I not supposed to love both of these women? But for me, I you sort of, I don't know, there's something I identify with um with Bernadette Peters, and I maybe it was me rooting for the underdog. Like nobody thought that she was going to be uh able to do Mama Rose because she's not known for being so quote unquote, I guess tough. Everyone thinks of Mama Rose is like really tough, like Ethel Merman's really punchy and really loud and very demonstrative, and so is Bette Midler.

But then you know, if you go back and you read what Mama Rose really was about and what how sort of her manner and her stature and her frame, her petite stature and all that, like she really was very close to Bernadette Peters. And it's also a little more believable that she could have done it herself. Like the whole thing is that she wished it was her. She thinks that she could do it. She's living through her children. And with Bernadette Peters, you could totally see that she could have been that star. So it just added a different layer to me. And I liked um some of the nuance and subtleties she brought, which usually you don't get in a Mama Rose. I mean, the most recent version that I saw uh live was I got to see Imelda Staunton do it in London.

And I was it was amazing because it was very different. And again, there's an example of how I watched it in person, and then when they aired the telecast, it was so different. It seemed like a totally different show. Just because you're watching the close-ups they're choosing and you're watching the way that they're shooting it, whereas when you're watching the whole thing, of course, live, uh, it gives you a very different feel. But um, and to me, I think Imelda Staunton is absolutely brilliant. Another very petite actress, might I add, um, all these little ladies with the big voices, I love it. Um, maybe one day I too will play Mama Rose with the if I'm if I'm going with the right trajectory of all the short belters.

But I think that uh Imelda Staunton for me that they directed her to do something that I found, and we can I mean um you might disagree with me on this, this can be a little dangerous and you have to play it really carefully.

[14:58] Christina Bianco: She started, if you're like you were talking about emotional journeys from one to ten, she started the show at a nine. So when you start the show in a nine, and there's not a lot of humor and there's not a lot of like pauses, it's all high stakes. But by the time she gets to Rose's turn, you run the risk of people being like, Well, I've seen this for two hours. Like, where do you go from here? And I think that what I saw live worked better to me than what I saw on the telecast. You know what I mean? You get to see, I don't know, it's just interesting. I think if Mama Rose is too harsh off the bat, that um you run the risk of making her well seem seem like a bully or a villain as opposed to somebody who really, really is just filled with love and and and too much too much love and too much care and and and and too much drive.

Um so I don't know, it's it's it's very interesting. I always I'm always drawn to even when I see people just perform the songs in concert, like with Symphony Orchestras and and all that, uh, all the different places where you can choose to, you know, sing a music as it's written, but maybe sometimes go against um what you'd think for a certain phrase or line. And I'm babbling like a crazy person, but that's what I liked about what Bernadette Peters brought to the role was very different, very unexpected. And you certainly um weren't quote unquote hit over the head with the uh aggressive abrasive nature of Mama Rose until very much later in the show. Mm-hmm. Now I don't usually bring up like different performers, but Mama Rose is like her own different category, so I think it's apt.

Um but in a very similar way to your thoughts on Amelda Staunton and how she started at a nine and there was not much way to go up there. There is a directorial choice with Bernadette that I'm not sure I a hundred percent agreed with as I didn't feel like the text supported it. Which was the fact that she was driven by the fact that she had a stage mother and all that um which was very much what Sam Mendes told Bernadette to perform it as which I feel like was is different but I feel like the text doesn't support it enough that I feel it's effective.

[17:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah absolutely I I can I completely get that and I I know that's the thing when you when you're doing a show that is so um well overdone and I don't mean overdone on Broadway but like think of every community and regional theater and high school production and college production like Gypsy is done all the time. How do you bring something new to it? If you're a director how do you put it make a different take um and so yeah not everyone's gonna is gonna go for that. Um, and even I'm not sure I quote unquote go for that. But I I do if I do like where maybe some of that thought process, having that as a foundation led, you know, Bernadette to make some where it led her. I I enjoy that. Um, but I know I'm in the mine already there. And you're not you're not wrong, it's just like different opinions.

[17:54] Christina Bianco: But speaking of different opinions, a lot of people try to talk about how the character of Rose is a monster and how cruel that she is. Um my question to both of you is like, why do you think so many people see her that way? Because I see her as super like relatable. Andrew, I'm gonna make you start this time. I want you to elaborate why you think whether or not she's a monster or whether or not she is um completely damaging to these children, or if she's just loving in a way that isn't quite what we find the normal.

[18:29] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I think she's just um straight up, I mean, obviously she's living through her kids, um, which is not a good thing to do. Uh, and I think this show is just a testament to that. It just makes her push her kids way too hard and bring them to situations they don't want to be into. Um and she's doing it for selfish reasons, not because of her actual children, which is why I think some people might see her as a monster. Um, because really she's doing it for herself, not for her kids, really.

[19:02] Christina Bianco: See, I don't agree with that.

[19:05] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[19:06] Christina Bianco: I don't think I mean, like again, I I think that I I think that she is so driven by her children. I mean, I mean, selfish reasons. Wait, actually, I'm gonna backtrack and say I don't I not that I don't agree with what you're saying, but I would I would word it differently because I think saying that she's doing it all for selfish reasons is only part of it because uh she wants to do these things for her kids because she knows that their lives would be uh pretty much boring and pathetic and and and and they'd be more aware of the fact that they had so little if they didn't try to do these great things and have something to look forward to in another city, another location, another opportunity.

And I think that's as much for her as it is for her kids. And I think the fact that she, you know, then reaches out and tries to get these other kids, all the boys, the news boys that don't really have places to go. I think that shows that she's not selfish. I think that shows that she's um just trying, trying, trying so hard to build something. But I think she uh the the the piece of her that interests me is where she loses sight of that, where she's got tunnel vision and is thinking about the future and the future and all these grand things for herself, but also for the kids, and then doesn't actually see what's going on around her and doesn't see that they're not all happy and that they are too old and that they want other things in life now. And I think it's I think it's the fact that she gets carried away and and where and when and how she gets carried away that makes her interesting.

[20:43] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I think I I would almost disagree though, because she gets very, very upset when her kids decide that they actually are successful in something else. Like when June leaves, she's upset. And then when her Louise actually becomes a success, she's upset. And it's like, okay, well, you want so you want to be successful, but only if you're involved.

[21:04] Christina Bianco: Um Yeah, well, I thought that that that's what makes her so complex and so wonderful, because I think she's incredibly proud of her daughter and knows that her daughter wouldn't be capable of those things. Uh, and to rise to the fame that she rose to if um mama hadn't pushed her. But it that it's that thing when she she also never envisioned her daughter stripping. So it's also a I think it's very complex and gray layered, and that's why everybody wants to sink their teeth into that role. Because if she was just an ogre, nobody would watch the show. And if she was just a sweetheart, nobody would watch the show. It wouldn't be what it is if she wasn't flawed.

[21:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:44] Christina Bianco: And the thing that makes her like r where I understand the monster side of it and like that side of it, is the way that she treats Louise specifically. The fact that she does have that favoritism is probably her worst trait. Like despite the stage stage mom thing. It is the abhorrent way that she treats Louise as the second tier, the second one, the not as talented one.

[22:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, that's true.

[22:08] Christina Bianco: I mean, it part of it comes from the fact that Louise was not talented. Um, but that doesn't make it right. She treats her as a child.

[22:15] Andrew DeWolf: She was incredibly talented.

[22:17] Christina Bianco: I mean, just at different things. But then you got the c the fact is Mama Rose can't envision anyone in the world not wanting to be a star, which is baffling to me because like a lot of people don't want that. And Louise does have talent. It's just not in the way that Mama Rose sees as valuable, which is her sewing, which everyone claims is incredible, especially the strippers.

[22:41] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[22:41] Christina Bianco: Yeah. And that and it's it's hysterical that that's this the thing that sort of helps her and gets her where she is, is. The sewing. It's unbelievable. But yeah, I again, it's it's really uh again. If if it was cut and dry, if it was just a regular boy meets girl, girl has nice mama sort of show, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be the classic that it is. I think having those conflicted feelings for her is what makes the role so great. And even if you look at the questions that she asks, like the actual questions that she asks herself in Rose's turn. I mean, it's give them love and what does it get you? Like she really means that. She loves those kids. You know, thanks a lot and out with the garbage.

Like she wants them to love her. Um, and yes, she wants some credit for it. Of course she does. But I I think it's I I I think if she's not doing it for love and for a better tomorrow for herself and the kids, then she's just an ogre, and that's why I don't see her as an ogre. I see her as as somebody who wants it all and tries desperately to have it all.

[23:49] Andrew DeWolf: I can't envision this as love, is the thing. The only thing that Rose loves above everything else in the world is show business.

[23:57] Christina Bianco: Oh, I disagree.

[23:59] Andrew DeWolf: Above her daughters, above her husband, above anything that they want, show business must always come first.

[24:07] Christina Bianco: They almost got out, and she just had to bring him back.

[24:11] Andrew DeWolf: You know what? That's okay. I uh we all see it differently, and that's that's the beauty of a show like that. One more point to her being a monster. She did write that show uh about the cow which is pretty monstrous in my opinion.

[24:26] Christina Bianco: She is very creative.

[24:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[24:29] Christina Bianco: Moo Mamoo. I have a moo cow, a new cow, a true cow named Carala! She's the next special friend of I like everything about her food! Mamma moo. She likes to be a couple of things. Do you guys understand like the metaphor of that song though?

[24:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[24:51] Christina Bianco: It's about uh June. Like for reels.

[24:53] Andrew DeWolf: Well, kinda well, the cow is supposed to represent the mother, you know, the milk giver.

[24:58] Christina Bianco: Where no, I'm not gonna go off and do my own thing. I'm gonna stay with the cow.

[25:07] Andrew DeWolf: And then she doesn't stay with the cow.

[25:10] Christina Bianco: Well, we all knew that was gonna happen, didn't we? And in a very subtle way, like in this story, then this is like the best book musical ever written, like structural-wise. At the end of act one, when both Louise and Mama Rose are at their lowest point. Louise lost the guy that she like the one thing, the I think Tulsa was his name. She lost him and her sister, the two things that were keeping her sane, and Rose lost her superstardom.

[25:42] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[25:43] Christina Bianco: And that's just like the fact that this show is structured so perfectly, like baffle, like this is a show I forget how amazing it is until I watch it again.

[25:53] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it's the reason so many people say it is the greatest American musical.

[25:57] Christina Bianco: And it again, because it's so complex and because it has so many ups and downs that are so beautifully constructed to make multiple arcs in the show. It's not just, you know, oh, the the conflict only exists at the end of act one. I mean, there's been a lot of conflict leading up to that moment, and then you know from there, if that's the low point for for or it's seemingly at that point, the low point for both of them, then it's going to catapult her to do something even more crazy at the top of the next act moving forward. So it's it's it's done beautifully, but everything's coming up, Roses is such a great moment. And I again it's it's all it's all on how it's presented and how it's performed and how it's directed.

And that number could be very much played where Rose is having these ideas and she's almost persuading herself of them the whole time. Or it could be played um, much like in the Patti LuPone version, where she's just absolutely tunnel vision kind of crazy about this, demanding this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, and then you you have I remember I remember the shot in the Tonies watching Laura Benanti and Boyd Gaines clutching each other, looking absolutely terrified. And it's like to have the visual of them looking at her as if she's a crazy demonic freak of nature is definitely puts you is in the audience in a different frame of mind watching that mama rose than you would be watching, let's say the Bette Midler one where she looks like she's sort of having ideas about it.

Like it's all about the same text, same music, but how are you acting it? How are you presenting it? And what what what have you seen in the show thus far that leads you to feel the way that you're feeling? And that's why, you know, you might think she's a total ogre and I don't. It's because I've seen maybe different interpretations of it that have given me something different. So it's just freaking fantastic.

[27:46] Christina Bianco: Uh speaking of different interpretations, do you want to talk about the ending and like how different that is done in almost every single production?

[27:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, well, I mean, considering that it has to be the same in that it's on the sound stage and you've got the I mean it's on the the empty stage and you've got the lights coming down and it's just her. Um, yeah, everybody's um interpretation of Rose's turn i is well, it's what everybody waits for, isn't it? It's that special moment because the moment is almost bigger than the actual performance. Like you're waiting for it when the show starts. And that's why I said it's very um interesting. Like what when I watched the Amelda Staunton one, I found myself going, where the hell is she gonna go with Rose's turn? And of course, she did some really interesting things with it to to make it interesting.

Like I said, when you start at you start at nine, you want to go to ten. It's like, but I've got two hours to get there. Um and my and again, here I go, just being a little a diva here. But Bernadette Peters' performance of Rose's turn, and particularly the one on the Tonies, I freaking love it. I love that she really took the time to have those quiet moments, those soft moments, where you could tell that she was conflicted. And if you gentlemen have not watched it, I think you should absolutely just YouTube, Bernadette Peters' Rose's turn, the Tonies. It is so layered. It's so layered. And I think you instead of just reading the lyrics and the person is just angry the whole time or saying, I wish it was me, me for me the whole time, you get like 12 different um approaches within this one song.

[29:23] Andrew DeWolf: 12 different uh all the feels.

[29:26] Christina Bianco: It gives you all the feels, gentlemen. It gives you everything. And I I love that. Not everybody else will, but I love that it it took me somewhere different for the Rose's turn than I've ever seen.

[29:35] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I feel the same way, but with Amelda Staunton, where it feels like she's in agony getting every word out, and that pause right before she says, Mama's gotta go home. It is it looks like the words are physically hurting her to come out of her face.

[29:49] Christina Bianco: Well, when she says mama's gotta let go, you're like, Oh my god, I there wasn't a dry eye in the house.

[29:53] Jess McInally: I mean, like exactly.

[29:54] Christina Bianco: So it doesn't mean that her version is right or wrong, or Bernadette's version is right or wrong, but that's how good the material is.

[30:02] Christina Bianco: Like you can really take the same lines and interpret them so differently. And it's that's it's just it's a really unique thing when an actress gets to sink their teeth into something like that and make it their own. You think, gosh, how many ways can you do this when it's been done so many times? But there's always a way. And this, you know, even those actresses will do it differently every night because that's what live theater is all about.

[30:25] Christina Bianco: But the ending specifically, depending on the director, is insanely like the last moment, I mean. Like in the original production, it ends like on a triumphant note of like, hey, let's move on with our lives of mother and daughter.

[30:39] Christina Bianco: Um the and the Patty Lapone Lara Bonanti version, um, literally, um Louise just laughs in her face and walks off stage leaving her alone.

[30:50] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[30:55] Christina Bianco: So like just like the addition of small things can make the ending and how it feels without changing a line of dialogue, like can change it entirely.

[31:04] Jess McInally: Absolutely.

[31:05] Christina Bianco: And that's that's where the direction and the show concept comes in as well. Because if you're painting her as a is a really aggressive person, really abrasive is the word I'll used, um, that from the stop top of the show, then you can totally imagine why, you know, Gypsy Rosalie is going to laugh in her face at the end of it.

[31:24] Christina Bianco: Like we know, and and less so in let's say the Bet Meddler or the Bernetta Peters version. So it's it's um yeah, it's it's a one of those lovely things where everyone's got their favorite and everyone's got their opinion, but it it's all valid because it just depends on what journey that the that particular creative team is taking you on.

[31:44] Jess McInally: Okay. So before we go into a mid-show announcement, I'm gonna ask you two both a question. Andrew, I'm gonna let you go first.

[31:49] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, sure.

[31:51] Andrew DeWolf: I love going first. Um, which character do you think is the most like sympathetic in that specific situation? Like which one do you feel like in that situation you related mo with the most?

[32:05] Andrew DeWolf: Uh in the whole show?

[32:06] Jess McInally: Yes.

[32:07] Andrew DeWolf: And they're like a little posse.

[32:10] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, um.

[32:12] Andrew DeWolf: And let's just cut Mama Rose out of this, because obviously she's like the lead lead. Like everyone around her, like Louise, June, um, Herbie, all of them.

[32:21] Andrew DeWolf: I I think Herbie.

[32:23] Christina Bianco: You do.

[32:26] Andrew DeWolf: I was like, uh, Herbie, you gotta get out of here, Herb. You're getting paid, like what's going on?

[32:31] Christina Bianco: Yeah, see, I don't I don't I don't understand him as much as I do June.

[32:36] Andrew DeWolf: I think June is the most relatable.

[32:38] Andrew DeWolf: Um, because June is knows she's good at what she's good at and sta sticks it out for her, you know, her mother and her sister as long as she can and is really honest about how like she she wants to get out of there.

[32:51] Andrew DeWolf: And and she's the one who I mean, even the fact that she's the one who starts if Mama Was Married, like she she's the one who's got her head screwed on straight, and which is why she's the first one to to leave with Tulsa, who is un technically unnecessary on the show and is the best song and the most beautiful moment, and she and then you realize why he's there, and it's really because of Louise, not June.

[33:09] Andrew DeWolf: And it's so beautiful. But yeah, so I think Tulsa and June are the are the the ones where you're like, oh, well, I get them, you know.

[33:17] Christina Bianco: The most normal.

[33:18] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I think I'm just so sad and pathetic that I understand Herbie.

[33:24] Christina Bianco: No, you're very, very kind and very selfless.

[33:24] Christina Bianco: Very selfless.

[33:30] Andrew DeWolf: That's true.

[33:31] Christina Bianco: Yeah.

[33:32] Christina Bianco: But that's it also makes it great, is when he when he finally quotes quote unquote, you know, when he when he gets a spine and he's, you know, and he's like he's done. And it's it's a it's a very huge moment for it.

[33:44] Andrew DeWolf: A great supporting role.

[33:47] Jess McInally: What are you but what about you, Jess?

[33:49] Jess McInally: I'm Mazeppa.

[33:51] Jess McInally: Come on.

[33:53] Jess McInally: How can we forget about those ladies?

[33:56] Christina Bianco: Come on, if you gotta bump it, bumper with a trumpet.

[33:59] Jess McInally: Yeah, I just that doesn't sound like you at all.

[34:05] Christina Bianco: That's that's words to live by.

[34:08] Jess McInally: That's my dream role. What are you talking about?

[34:10] Christina Bianco: I I'm gonna Jess, you're you're like a baby June.

[34:14] Jess McInally: No, in all honesty, I'm Louise.

[34:16] Jess McInally: Let's be fair.

[34:17] Andrew DeWolf: I'm on for the ride.

[34:19] Jess McInally: You're a stripper?

[34:21] Andrew DeWolf: Um if paid high enough, I get if the opportunity presented itself, you would you would do it.

[34:27] Jess McInally: Oh yeah.

[34:28] Jess McInally: Uh let me entertain you.

[34:35] Christina Bianco: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you, but today's show is brought to you by Audible.

[34:39] Christina Bianco: Audible is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30 day free trial membership.

[34:44] Christina Bianco: Just go to Audible Trial.com slash music schools with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs.

[34:50] Christina Bianco: Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy. Go to Audible Trial dot com slash me schools with cheese.

[34:57] Christina Bianco: Today I'm actually suggesting Shocker Gypsy, a memoir by Gypsy Rosley, narrated by Meow Meow, who I'm assuming m might be it connected to the burlesque world.

[35:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[35:09] Jess McInally: What are you talking about meow meow?

[35:11] Christina Bianco: Is that what Yeah, performer.

[35:14] Christina Bianco: Oh, really?

[35:15] Christina Bianco: Yes, yes.

[35:15] Christina Bianco: Look it up.

[35:16] Christina Bianco: Meow Meow.

[35:17] Christina Bianco: Meow.

[35:18] Christina Bianco: To download your free audiobook today, go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese.

[35:24] Christina Bianco: Again, that's Audibletrial.com slash Music Schools with Cheese for your free audiobook.

[35:28] Christina Bianco: Let's get back to the real show now.

[35:35] Christina Bianco: Needing sweaters and standing still.

[35:38] Christina Bianco: That's okay for some people who don't know they're alive.

[35:46] Christina Bianco: Some people can thrive and blow.

[35:50] Christina Bianco: Living life in the living room.

[35:54] Christina Bianco: That's perfect for some people of 105 bottom.

[36:01] Jess McInally: Alright, let's talk about the music for a bit.

[36:04] Jess McInally: Because we haven't touched on the music at all.

[36:07] Jess McInally: Uh Julie Stein's score is just gorgeous.

[36:10] Christina Bianco: So Sondheim didn't write the music.

[36:12] Jess McInally: No, he wrote the lyrics.

[36:13] Christina Bianco: Oh my goodness.

[36:14] Jess McInally: I didn't even know that.

[36:15] Christina Bianco: I thought he did.

[36:16] Andrew DeWolf: Meowney to get up on your musical theater, sir.

[36:19] Jess McInally: That's that's the point of this podcast.

[36:22] Christina Bianco: Yeah, I'm not uh I'm not into it too much, sadly.

[36:25] Jess McInally: That's okay.

[36:26] Christina Bianco: We're we're happy to educate you.

[36:28] Christina Bianco: I've I've just been learning all day.

[36:30] Christina Bianco: But fun fact, I'm sure Christina already knows this, but Sondheim was supposed to do music and lyrics.

[36:36] Christina Bianco: This is supposed to be his first like full-on like score lyric.

[36:40] Christina Bianco: But Ethel Merman refused to do it with a brand new talent because she got screwed over by a couple people and insisted that Julie Stein come on in, and Sondheim was like, I don't want to do it unless unless I'm getting all the credit and doing it all myself.

[36:54] Christina Bianco: And Oscar Hammersin was like, come on, do it, kid. Like, when are you gonna get a chance to work with a star like Ethel again? Get get on there. Stop stop whining.

[37:03] Jess McInally: So grateful to Oscar Hammerstein because we got this great piece.

[37:08] Christina Bianco: Mm-hmm.

[37:08] Christina Bianco: Like we would not have Rose's turn without Sondheim, because he is the father of that.

[37:14] Christina Bianco: Those lyrics, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, it's so complex that every single one is you know, there's always the contradiction in Sondheim lyrics.

[37:23] Christina Bianco: You say something and it could be interpreted in two different ways. You say something else, and you pretty much contradict what you said two lines later.

[37:29] Christina Bianco: But that's what we do as humans. That's how we think, and that's our thought process, and that's what makes it so real.

[37:34] Christina Bianco: He doesn't just try to put together pretty sentences that rhyme. He really tells the story of the character.

[37:40] Jess McInally: There's a lot of good lyrics in this.

[37:43] Christina Bianco: Oh, yeah.

[37:43] Christina Bianco: Um lot.

[37:44] Christina Bianco: If you got a bum-bumper with a trumpet.

[37:47] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[37:48] Christina Bianco: All the move puns.

[37:49] Christina Bianco: I mean, those are wow.

[37:54] Christina Bianco: See, I my favorite songs in the show aren't the bigger bombastic ones, it's the smaller ones, like you'll never get away from me, and uh, Mr. Goldstone, I love you.

[38:02] Jess McInally: Like, yeah.

[38:05] Christina Bianco: That's a good one.

[38:05] Christina Bianco: I love Little Lamb.

[38:07] Christina Bianco: I mean, little kids used to sing that just thinking it was just a little girl singing to a lamb, but my gosh, the lyrics are devastating.

[38:15] Christina Bianco: Devastating.

[38:16] Christina Bianco: It's just uh it's it's such a simple, beautiful childlike melody, and this girl that is absolutely emotionally stunted singing it.

[38:24] Christina Bianco: Oh, tragic.

[38:25] Christina Bianco: It was particularly beautiful, and the um and a lora Benante, uh what the way she did it was particularly beautiful.

[38:35] Jess McInally: Little love.

[38:35] Christina Bianco: Little love.

[38:38] Jess McInally: I want her how old I am.

[38:45] Christina Bianco: I wonder how old.

[38:54] Christina Bianco: Little and also all the reprises of May We Entertain You and all the vaudeville routines.

[39:01] Christina Bianco: On first watch, it's just like, oh, okay, cute vaudeville.

[39:05] Christina Bianco: On second watch, you're cringing because you know what this vaudeville eventually becomes.

[39:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think I think watching the the boys and just watching them get older and how it's adorable at first and then it's exhausting.

[39:16] Andrew DeWolf: It becomes a chore because they don't love it anymore.

[39:19] Christina Bianco: And um it's it's written into the music.

[39:21] Christina Bianco: It's it's all written in, and that's what's um that's what's so interesting because every time you watch it, you get something new.

[39:27] Christina Bianco: You can sacrifice your sacro work can end the fat roll.

[39:31] Christina Bianco: Bump and the dump till you're dead.

[39:35] Christina Bianco: You gotta get a gimmick if you wanna get ahead.

[39:42] Jess McInally: You can now I want to talk about gotta get a gimmick, because that is a very weird song and a very weird placement in the show.

[39:52] Jess McInally: Where it's just a charming comedy number, like right before all the shit hits the fan in act two.

[39:59] Christina Bianco: Yeah, it's great.

[40:00] Christina Bianco: It's technically not it, I mean, uh this is obviously debatable, but technically, as far as the plot moving forward, it is not needed.

[40:08] Christina Bianco: Like all I really need is the girl is needed in in that it shows Louise's interaction with Tulsa.

[40:15] Christina Bianco: But in this, it's not like that number is what inspires, you know, Louise to strip.

[40:20] Christina Bianco: You know, it's it really is a pick-me-up, uh a theatrical device, the 11 o'clock number that's supposed to like pick up the audience and keep them going to the end of the show.

[40:31] Jess McInally: So in in that respect, it shouldn't work as well as it does, but boy oh boy, did they write a showstopper?

[40:37] Christina Bianco: Mm-hmm.

[40:38] Christina Bianco: And you need that, because it has been so tense, like every ounce of you is quenched at this point.

[40:43] Christina Bianco: And you just need that release to like laugh at something because you know things are gonna only get worse.

[40:50] Jess McInally: What would your gimmick be, Jess?

[40:53] Jess McInally: Um, I don't know.

[40:55] Andrew DeWolf: Hmm.

[40:57] Andrew DeWolf: What would yours be, Andrew?

[40:59] Andrew DeWolf: Let me think.

[41:00] Andrew DeWolf: I already have a gimmick, Jess.

[41:04] Jess McInally: What is it?

[41:05] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[41:05] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, do I not maybe I shouldn't be here for the rest of the conversation?

[41:12] Andrew DeWolf: I do something with cheese.

[41:14] Jess McInally: Oh.

[41:15] Christina Bianco: Okay.

[41:16] Christina Bianco: When in doubt cheese.

[41:18] Christina Bianco: What about you, Christina?

[41:19] Christina Bianco: What would your gimmick be?

[41:20] Christina Bianco: I think it would be something about how I would just talk in 25 different voices.

[41:26] Christina Bianco: I think that probably is.

[41:27] Christina Bianco: Yeah, she went on Ellen for her gimmick.

[41:30] Christina Bianco: I think I think we're gonna play into that one right there.

[41:33] Christina Bianco: I think that'd be that'd be my gimmick.

[41:34] Christina Bianco: Yeah.

[41:35] Christina Bianco: I'm gonna strip, but I'm gonna strip as Liza Binnelli.

[41:38] Christina Bianco: And Christina Channel.

[41:40] Christina Bianco: And I was Liza Linelli.

[41:42] Christina Bianco: And is Julie Andrews?

[41:44] Christina Bianco: No, Julie Andrews doing you gotta get a gimmick could be really, really good.

[41:47] Christina Bianco: I remember when I was in um when I was in Forbidden Broadway, that was the number that they had.

[41:53] Christina Bianco: It wasn't just for Gypsy.

[41:55] Christina Bianco: It was a number they used to song you gotta have a gimmick, um, when Avenue Q came out, and when Lion King was out, and it was you gotta have a puppet.

[42:05] Christina Bianco: And because all the show has had some puppets, and Little Shop Before us came in and they would rotate the third, because because Avenue Q and um Lion King were running forever whenever and ever.

[42:05] Christina Bianco: They would rotate the third, and finally, finally, Gypsy came back on Broadway.

[42:20] Christina Bianco: So they put in the Louise track holding her little lamb.

[42:25] Christina Bianco: It was like you gotta get a puppet.

[42:27] Christina Bianco: It was so silly, and that's what I had to do in the show.

[42:30] Christina Bianco: And um, it's just funny, that song just keeps going and you can use it different ways.

[42:36] Christina Bianco: But I remember the audience would always just laugh and sing along.

[42:39] Christina Bianco: It makes everybody so happy.

[42:41] Christina Bianco: And of course, Forbidden Broadway, you know, uh Gerard Alison Drini wrote some very clever parody lyrics, but it's that it's that great Julie Stein score that everybody knows that makes them happy.

[42:51] Christina Bianco: And if it wasn't for me, then when you're well, someone tell me, when is it my turn?

[43:03] Christina Bianco: Don't I get a dream for myself?

[43:06] Christina Bianco: No, it's gonna be my turn.

[43:07] Christina Bianco: Gangway world, get off of my runway.

[43:09] Christina Bianco: Stop now, I got a thousand this time, boys I'm tanging the mouth, and everything coming up.

[43:19] Christina Bianco: Everything open up cool.

[43:23] Christina Bianco: Everything's open up puppet this time for me.

[43:31] Christina Bianco: There's nothing bad about this show.

[43:33] Christina Bianco: There's not a single like bad thing about it, aside from its name being uh unfortunate misnomer.

[43:39] Jess McInally: Yeah, and again, named after a person, so you really can't do anything with that one.

[43:43] Christina Bianco: I think that um, you know, a lot of some of my favorite musicals um don't have quote unquote the the traditional American musical theater like Trifecta has to have some great dancing and great singing and comedy and like and great singing and comedy and drama.

[43:59] Christina Bianco: Like those those um shows like My Fair Lady and the Rogerson Hammerstein shows, there's a healthy balance of levity and comedy built in with the drama.

[44:08] Christina Bianco: And so with Gypsy, it can obviously the first act is a little more light. Um, but you know, you have to have those comedic moments thrown in, and it gives you the dancing, it gives you the singing, it gives you the comedy and the tragedy.

[44:21] Christina Bianco: And I think that's why it's well, obviously, one of the reasons it's considered one of the greatest American musicals.

[44:27] Christina Bianco: But the book is so strong, the story itself is so strong that it you don't need it to even be a musical.

[44:33] Christina Bianco: You don't need the dancing, you don't need it.

[44:34] Christina Bianco: But of course, as we know, everything is is so beautifully heightened and all the the true intensity comes out when you put that text to music.

[44:47] Christina Bianco: I think we nailed it. That was it right there. Let's frame that on the wall. I do try. I do try. No, I'm just a fan. I mean, that's the thing is I love musical theater, and I love these traditional scores, and I love those real big quote-unquote diva roles. I mean, they're iconic and they're lasting, and even the kids just getting into musical theater today, they know all of these shows and all of these songs, and they have to. It's like it's musical theater education.

[45:17] Jess McInally: Yeah, I mean, Gypsy is the one musical that is classic musical theater that I think is timeless forever. It still works today. Whereas you got things like Oklahoma, which the dream ballet kind of throws you off a little bit, and Carousel, the domestic violence subtext is a little odd. Yeah, South Pacific, very much, you know, but it's like all these, but all you know what, everything comes full circle because now we watch those shows when we really notice those themes that are still popping up today with tolerance and, you know, abuse and everything and like the Me Too movement. So many of these shows are even more, I think, interesting to watch now, and that's why I think so many of the productions try to find different ways to interpret them and modernize them, you know. So it's no surprise that Gypsy keeps getting done and done and done in new different ways.

[46:17] Christina Bianco: So, Jess.

[46:18] Jess McInally: Yes, are you ready to do what we promised at the beginning of this show?

[46:23] Christina Bianco: I love how we promised this, like a little while ago, and I have to spontaneously figure out how to do it. But that's it. I like a challenge, I like doing things on the spot. We're gonna make this work. She's about to sing Rose's Turn for us.

[46:36] Jess McInally: Not the whole thing.

[46:37] Christina Bianco: The whole thing.

[46:38] Jess McInally: Okay, I was gonna say that's gonna come up pretty hard. That will hopefully be a YouTube video coming soon to your computer or mobile device. This will be a preview.

[46:48] Christina Bianco: Yeah. I'm sorry I lied to everyone. I didn't know this was actually happening.

[46:53] Jess McInally: No, it's okay. I'm gonna try to figure this out. So, Bette Midler would start, I think, with "I had a dream."

[47:04] Christina Bianco: I dreamed it for you, Joan.

[47:07] Jess McInally: It wasn't for me, Herbie. One of the lyrics, and if it wasn't for me, then where would you be, Miss Gypsy Rosie? And my favorite part of Bernadette Peters is when she goes, "Whoa." Someone tell me, what is it, my turn? Don't I get a dream for myself? Starting now. It's gonna be my turn. Gagw, I will get off on my runway of Patti LuPone.

[47:39] Christina Bianco: Hello, I'm coming up Rose.

[47:43] Jess McInally: Everything's coming up roses.

[47:47] Christina Bianco: Everything's coming up roses this time, Bobby.

[47:52] Jess McInally: Julie Andrews.

[47:56] Christina Bianco: And then maybe Selena. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Ah, at the end.

[48:06] Jess McInally: Oh yeah.

[48:07] Christina Bianco: Yeah, oh you have to. I'm me.

[48:13] Jess McInally: Perfect. That was the definitive version. We took all the best parts from the other ones.

[48:18] Christina Bianco: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, this is why people rehearse.

[48:21] Jess McInally: This is why people rehearse. I think she killed it. I think that was amazing.

[48:27] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, wait. That was definitely some cheese for the Musicals with Cheese podcast. I feel really good about my contribution. There's no more cheese we can add. That was it.

[48:41] Jess McInally: Oh, all right, guys. We're getting close to the end of the episode as sad as what is. Wait, Jess, what's your favorite song from this? You didn't tell the people.

[48:48] Christina Bianco: I mean, it's hard.

[48:51] Jess McInally: It's Rose's Turn. Like, I didn't ask because that's the obvious answer is the sad thing.

[48:56] Christina Bianco: Oh.

[48:57] Jess McInally: No, it's not sad. It's just, you know, it's that moment. It's so exciting when you wait a whole show to hear that song.

[49:03] Andrew DeWolf: It's such a boring pick, Jess.

[49:04] Jess McInally: No. Nothing's boring.

[49:05] Andrew DeWolf: Nothing's boring. I mean, Little Lamb is technically boring, but I don't know.

[49:11] Jess McInally: What about you, Andrew? Prove to me that you're not boring.

[49:15] Andrew DeWolf: What is my favorite song?

[49:16] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[49:17] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Mr. Goldstone, I love you is a great song. I love it. I have an egg roll.

[49:22] Christina Bianco: That's so funny.

[49:31] Christina Bianco: So many questions. What about you, Christina?

[49:33] Christina Bianco: Um, it's again, it's really hard to pick, but I like Small World. Nobody ever mentions that one, but that's a really beautiful song. When she sings that to her, oh, it's just those lyrics kill me. Again, not what you'd expect, but every time I hear it, it just knocks me out. I love it.

[49:51] Andrew DeWolf: Funny.

[49:54] Christina Bianco: You're a man who goes traveling rather than settling down.

[50:01] Andrew DeWolf: Funny.

[50:02] Christina Bianco: Cause I'd love to go traveling, Small World.

[50:11] Jess McInally: See, Jess, that's a quality pick.

[50:13] Christina Bianco: Well, I love that song too. But I like it when like the older women do it because it kind of is like when your mom's trying to be sexy. It's like funny.

[50:24] Andrew DeWolf: I'm a man without children.

[50:26] Jess McInally: Oh my gosh. Now I'll never hear the song the same way again.

[50:30] Christina Bianco: I mean, it does. Do you know what your mom is like when she's trying to be sexy? I mean, it is that cringeworthy thing where it's like they're trying to be alluring. It's like what it would probably be like to see your mama want to be a star.

[50:46] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it works. I mean, he gets wrapped around her finger, so it totally works.

[50:51] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[50:52] Christina Bianco: That's why it's a good song.

[50:54] Jess McInally: Fair enough. I mean, that's kind of where we fall in love with Rose because it's like the moment when she's vulnerable.

[51:00] Christina Bianco: Charming and vulnerable, yeah.

[51:02] Jess McInally: Yeah. She knows what she wants, but she's vulnerable when she's, you know, trying to achieve it.

[51:09] Christina Bianco: So it's great. Selectively vulnerable.

[51:12] Jess McInally: Yeah, like most humans. Herbie should have just kept selling candy, honestly.

[51:19] Andrew DeWolf: But think of the adventure he had.

[51:21] Christina Bianco: See, I'm a sucker for it.

[51:22] Andrew DeWolf: He loves it.

[51:23] Christina Bianco: He lives for the adventure and the danger.

[51:25] Andrew DeWolf: He doesn't love it. He should have just sold candy.

[51:27] Christina Bianco: He likes being a martyr.

[51:29] Andrew DeWolf: See, this is where we just disagree.

[51:32] Christina Bianco: Wherever I go, I know he goes.

[51:36] Andrew DeWolf: Wherever I go, I know she goes.

[51:40] Christina Bianco: No fits, no fights, no feuds, and no we go.

[51:51] Jess McInally: All right, folks, what are your overall thoughts on Gypsy? Christina, you start.

[51:55] Christina Bianco: Oh my gosh, I have to summarize.

[51:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[52:00] Christina Bianco: Oh no. I feel like I've said way too much. Listen, I think that no matter what production of Gypsy you're seeing with whoever playing Rose, I think that the show is so nuanced and so layered and so beautifully shows the complexity of the human spirit that you're always gonna find something new in it. That's why I think it's a really, really lasting show that will always be classic and always be done and never let us down. And there's always room for a new Mama Rose. That's my summary.

[52:38] Jess McInally: It could even be you. You'd be a much better Herbie.

[52:42] Andrew DeWolf: What are your overall thoughts on Gypsy?

[52:46] Andrew DeWolf: Uh well, I mean, being the one time I've seen it, it was really good. It's one of the best things I've watched for this show.

[52:54] Jess McInally: Well, that's not small. That's not a small thing.

[52:58] Andrew DeWolf: Is it above or below Sweeney Todd? Because that was your number one for you.

[53:01] Jess McInally: Which Sweeney Todd did you make it?

[53:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that was number one for a little while. It's hard to rate them anymore because there's so many. But I'm gonna put it in the top. It's in the top tier. I think I just like almost everything we've seen that Sondheim has been involved in, so I might be a sucker for him.

[53:18] Christina Bianco: Okay.

[53:19] Andrew DeWolf: Which sounds wrong.

[53:20] Christina Bianco: It doesn't sound right.

[53:22] Andrew DeWolf: That is good.

[53:23] Christina Bianco: That is, but it's fine.

[53:25] Andrew DeWolf: That is like the pretentious theater kid thing to say, though, is the thing.

[53:29] Christina Bianco: I'm not a pretentious theater kid though. I've never done any theater like that.

[53:33] Andrew DeWolf: But I kind of do as well.

[53:34] Christina Bianco: So that's the ending note, ladies and gentlemen. We're all Sondheim snobs here.

[53:40] Andrew DeWolf: Except for Assassins. That one sucked.

[53:42] Christina Bianco: I love it so much.

[53:45] Andrew DeWolf: Let's end this before I start yelling at him.

[53:47] Christina Bianco: Let's pull out the frogs and talk about how much we all love the frogs.

[53:52] Andrew DeWolf: What's the frogs?

[53:55] Christina Bianco: Nobody knows.

[53:56] Andrew DeWolf: Nobody knows.

[53:57] Christina Bianco: Okay. Or Evening Primrose. How about we pull that one out?

[54:01] Andrew DeWolf: You would have beautiful music from Evening Primrose.

[54:03] Christina Bianco: I'm not gonna get started, gentlemen.

[54:05] Andrew DeWolf: Or Bounce Over. You want to talk about Dick Tracy?

[54:09] Christina Bianco: I love Dick Tracy.

[54:10] Andrew DeWolf: Sooner or later, kids, sooner or later. So, what is your cheese rating, Andrew?

[54:14] Andrew DeWolf: So we can set it up for Christina to give us hers.

[54:17] Christina Bianco: Oh my god. How do I pick a cheese for this? I mean, pretty much all cheese would work. There's a cow in the show, right? I don't know how to give this one a cheese rating, so I'm gonna pass for right now. I want to hear what Jess has to say because he always picks the best one.

[54:31] Jess McInally: I've already got my cheese.

[54:32] Christina Bianco: All right, Christina, what is your cheese rating?

[54:34] Jess McInally: Yeah, why don't you go first?

[54:35] Christina Bianco: Well, considering that my two of the most iconic in my time, Mama Rose, Bernadette Peters and Patti LuPone are of Italian descent, I'm choosing an Italian cheese that has a nice bit of sweetness and a sharp, bittery edge. It's an Asiago. See, I like it's not too hard, not too soft. It's good when it's eaten in chunks, good when it's grated, and I feel like that sprinkle of something for everybody is what Gypsy has, or a little bite to it. How is that for a cheese? Boom.

[55:12] Jess McInally: That was excellent.

[55:13] Christina Bianco: That was excellent.

[55:14] Jess McInally: I did well.

[55:15] Christina Bianco: You have to pop my Asiago now, sir.

[55:18] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. I'm gonna pick three cheese Italian blend for the Bonanti, the LuPone, and the Bernadette.

[55:27] Christina Bianco: Ah, okay. You know what? That's really good.

[55:28] Andrew DeWolf: You got the Benanti in there, you win.

[55:31] Christina Bianco: That's good.

[55:32] Jess McInally: All right. What do you have?

[55:35] Jess McInally: Um, I'm just gonna pick Parmesan because you just put it with everything and it's wonderful.

[55:40] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god.

[55:41] Christina Bianco: Come out!

[55:43] Jess McInally: Of all the times my dog actually responded to that evening.

[55:47] Andrew DeWolf: He's upset.

[55:48] Jess McInally: Jess, of all the times you're just gonna get lazy on this.

[55:51] Andrew DeWolf: This is the one.

[55:53] Christina Bianco: It's because it couldn't top my Asiago.

[55:55] Jess McInally: It's a good one.

[55:56] Christina Bianco: I couldn't.

[55:57] Andrew DeWolf: I forgot.

[55:57] Jess McInally: That was his pick.

[56:00] Andrew DeWolf: That was his pick, I bet.

[56:01] Jess McInally: It was.

[56:01] Christina Bianco: I'm not gonna lie.

[56:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's bad.

[56:04] Jess McInally: All right, guys. That was a fun show. Christina, we had so much fun. Is there things you want to promote so that people can like find more of your stuff?

[56:12] Christina Bianco: Oh my goodness. Well, sure. No, it's fine. I perform all over the world and all over the country, the United States, and my website, ChristinaBianco.com will have all that information about my upcoming concerts and appearances. And if you would like to listen to me, I did release my very first live album last year. It's called Life of the Party, and it is available on iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, all that good stuff. And it's a traditional live concert, very much a throwback to the old concerts of like Judy Garland and Sammy Davis Jr., where you hear all of the patter, all the dialogue. So it's really great. If you listen to it, you should feel like you're at the concert. I'm very proud of it. And so hopefully you guys will enjoy that as well.

[57:04] Jess McInally: I can speak from experience that it is my happy album whenever I'm having a bad day at work. It is a wonderful album.

[57:11] Christina Bianco: Thank you. I should say, I should tell the listeners who know nothing about me that the concert is half my own voice, half impression. So you'll hear lovely heartfelt moments in my own voice, and also things like, you know, Lizam and Ellie singing "Livin' La Vida Loca." So there's something for everybody, just like Gypsy.

[57:27] Jess McInally: Christina, one more thing before I start shilling our own stuff.

[57:32] Christina Bianco: That's fine.

[57:33] Jess McInally: Not related to anything else. Might get cut out of the episode. But uh oh.

[57:38] Christina Bianco: I know that you have a history with Dora the Explorer.

[57:42] Christina Bianco: I do.

[57:43] Jess McInally: I'm curious as to your opinion on the new trailer. And I would like to know your interpretation of Dora's opinion on the new Dora.

[57:52] Christina Bianco: Okay. So if you want to hear Dora the Explorer talk about the new one, then she would probably say, "I don't know why they didn't have her talk like me." And that's basically all I can do.

[58:06] Jess McInally: Dora, Dora, Dora the Explorer.

[58:11] Christina Bianco: I need your help.

[58:13] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god.

[58:14] Christina Bianco: I can't.

[58:15] Jess McInally: I can't.

[58:16] Christina Bianco: Dora Super Cool Explorador.

[58:19] Andrew DeWolf: I don't even know how this is.

[58:20] Christina Bianco: For context, Christina was on the touring production of Dora the Explorer Live where she played Dora.

[58:26] Christina Bianco: I was the original.

[58:27] Andrew DeWolf: The original Dora.

[58:30] Christina Bianco: Yeah, I know. I mean, I played Radio City Musical. It's like the coolest thing ever. And it was like, listen, I just can never wear orange shorts again, but it's all gonna be fun.

[58:35] Jess McInally: All right, guys, thank you for listening. Please subscribe to us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. Follow us on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals. We have a Patreon if you want to throw us a couple dollars every episode. Like, just go over there to Musicals with Cheese. Follow us on Instagram at Musicals with Cheese. We have a YouTube page at Musical Theater Lives. Shoot us an email at MusicalTheaterLives@gmail.com. Our amazing title card is created by Jolene Casco. Follow her on Instagram at Jolene Casco.

[59:07] Jess McInally: All right, you guys. That was a lot of fun. I know Christina has got somewhere she's gotta be, and we're just making the time. So let's wrap it all up. We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[59:21] Christina Bianco: Bye.

[59:22] Andrew DeWolf: Bye.