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[0:50] Andrew DeWolf: Sure, I'll do a brief talk about our Amazon affiliate link.

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[1:18] Jess McInally: Alright, let's get on to the real show.

[1:24] Jess McInally: Hello, I'm Jess McInally.

[1:27] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[1:29] Jess McInally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater more. How are you today, Andrew?

[1:33] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, it looks like them boys have gotten themselves into some trouble.

[1:44] Jess McInally: Sounds like we're in the south.

[1:45] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, way down south where it gets real hot. Andrew, what are we talking about today?

[1:53] Andrew DeWolf: Um, well, in honor of Confederate Memorial Day, we're reviewing Parade.

[2:19] Andrew DeWolf: Parade is a musical with a book by Alfred Uhry and music and lyrics by our favorite head of the Jason Robert Brown's fan club, Jason Robert Brown's.

[2:29] Jess McInally: You stole that joke, and you will never stop using it, will you?

[2:33] Andrew DeWolf: Never!

[2:34] Andrew DeWolf: The musical premiered on Broadway in 1998 and won Tony Awards for Best Book and Best Original Score out of nine nominations, and six Drama Desk Awards.

[2:43] Andrew DeWolf: The show has a U.S. national tour and numerous professional and amateur productions in both the US and abroad.

[2:49] Andrew DeWolf: The musical dramatizes the 1913 trial of Jewish factory manager Leo Frank, who was accused and convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old employee, Mary Fagan.

[2:59] Andrew DeWolf: The trial, sensationalized by the media, aroused anti-Semitic tensions in Atlanta in the U.S. state of Georgia, when Frank's death sentence was commuted to life in prison by the departing governor of Georgia, John M. Slaton, due to his detailed review of over 10,000 pages of testimony and possible problems with the trial.

[3:16] Andrew DeWolf: Leo Frank was transferred to a prison in Milledgeville, Georgia, where a lynching party seized and kidnapped him.

[3:23] Andrew DeWolf: Frank was taken to Fagan's hometown of Marietta, Georgia, and he was hanged from an oak tree.

[3:27] Andrew DeWolf: The events surrounding the investigation and trial led to two groups emerging: the revival of the defunct KKK and the birth of the Jewish civil rights organization, the Anti-Defamation League, ADL.

[3:38] Andrew DeWolf: Jason Robert Brown's was brought on by Harold Prince after Stephen Sondheim turned the project down.

[3:46] Andrew DeWolf: Prince's daughter Daisy had brought Brown to her father's attention after she directed a production, I believe it was the last five years.

[3:52] Andrew DeWolf: No, um, a production of Songs for a New World for Jason Robert Brown's. Alfred Uhry grew up in Atlanta and had personal knowledge of the Frank story, as his great uncle owned the pencil factory run by Leo Frank.

[4:06] Jess McInally: So what do you think of the musical, Andrew?

[4:09] Andrew DeWolf: I think that it is a very dramatic and well-told story. I think you would agree.

[4:16] Jess McInally: Yes, I a hundred percent would. This is actually my favorite musical at this moment in time.

[4:22] Andrew DeWolf: Jess just loves the dark stuff, huh?

[4:25] Jess McInally: You bet I do. And now, let me make this statement that we have to do because this is about a true story. We are talking about the content of this musical alone, as if it was divorced from the actual historical context.

[4:41] Jess McInally: Because there is a lot of varied information about the trial of Leo Frank, and really we have not enough clout to say anything whether or not it's true.

[4:53] Jess McInally: All we do know is that he was posthumously pardoned due to the horrible way that his entire trial was managed. And it was basically a miscarriage of justice just because of the way that the trial was handled.

[5:07] Jess McInally: Whether or not he was innocent or guilty, he was not given a fair trial. And that's all we're gonna say about facts. Now let's talk about this musical.

[5:16] Andrew DeWolf: Absolutely. Uh, where do you want to start? Andrew, why don't you just give us a little beat-by-beat of what happens in this musical and the tone and the ideas it's trying to convey.

[5:26] Andrew DeWolf: So basically, it's Confederate Memorial Day, which I'm really hoping is not a holiday that exists anymore, but it probably is.

[5:34] Jess McInally: Yep.

[5:37] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, America's the only country where we actively celebrate traitors. Uh, is uh, when is Benedict Arnold? Actually, you know what? I live near a monument to Benedict Arnold. Uh, two of them, in fact. When are we getting our Edward Snowden statues?

[5:51] Jess McInally: I, you know, is there a musical about Benedict Arnold? I'm just thinking about that. Lynn Manuel Miranda, get on it.

[5:57] Andrew DeWolf: That would actually be a pretty good show if you've read anything about him. Uh, I think it would be a very interesting subject to be a musical about.

[6:03] Andrew DeWolf: It's Confederate Memorial Day, and you have this Leo Frank from Brooklyn. Uh, Brooklyn, Brooklyn, who's living in the South. Um, which I how he ended up there, why he ended up there, not really fully explained.

[6:20] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, he ended up there because um, his wife's relative offered him a job working at the pencil factory as a superintendent.

[6:27] Jess McInally: Okay.

[6:28] Andrew DeWolf: He saw it as a good money, and as he says, like, I didn't realize it paid so well because I had to live in the South.

[6:36] Jess McInally: Um, I thought his wife was from the South, though.

[6:39] Andrew DeWolf: She is.

[6:40] Jess McInally: Um, but I think they were arranged marriage type thing, it feels like.

[6:44] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, that's interesting. Huh. I wish they got deeper into any of that. I mean, it is a love story between him and his wife at the whole of this. That is the emotional through line of the show.

[6:54] Andrew DeWolf: But basically, he feels out of place. Um, of course, with it being Confederate Memorial Day and he's a Yankee. Um, obviously. He has a great line. Um, who Confederate Memorial Day is asinine. Who wants to celebrate losing a war?

[7:11] Jess McInally: Say what you will about how dark this is. That has some pretty good laugh moments.

[7:15] Andrew DeWolf: But so he goes to his factory, and this little girl, um, Mary Fagan.

[7:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yep, she comes in to get paid, and then she dies. Um, and of course, everyone blames it on him. There's this ridiculous trial that is just absolutely off the rails in terms of there's no evidence his lawyer doesn't even try.

[7:38] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, I mean, I'm not sure how accurate this is to reality, of course, but with reality, um, his trial lawyer, it's really iffy because by design there's a reason why his trial lawyer doesn't say much in the musical, is because what he did say was mostly racist.

[7:56] Jess McInally: Oh, so that's against black people.

[7:58] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. I mean, that's actually probably a very effective defense in the South, but it turns out in that time they hated Yankees more than they hated black folks because they didn't just fight a war with African Americans.

[8:11] Andrew DeWolf: You also skipped over when they were trying to when they found the body that he just starts stripping to his undies. The second act is mostly he's in prison and wants to get out of prison, obviously, and they eventually get to the...

[8:17] Jess McInally: Before he gets hung by the name.

[8:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they eventually get to the point where he's gonna get a lighter sentence, which honestly is in my opinion, still a massive miscarriage of justice to give him a life sentence for what that trial was like how horrible that was, but whatever.

[8:39] Andrew DeWolf: They give him a life sentence instead and move him to like some minimum security farm or some shit. Um, and then he gets hung.

[8:46] Andrew DeWolf: And that's the end. He gets lynched by a group of people. But even the villains, even the villains that go out and lynch these people. Like, let's be fair, they think that he raped and murdered a 13-year-old girl.

[8:59] Andrew DeWolf: It's not like they are it's not like they're framing him because they just hate him. They're framing him because they honestly think he did it.

[9:07] Jess McInally: Yes, but the reasons they think he did it are just crazy, and at the same time, he's also already being punished for whatever they think he did.

[9:17] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. It's just this vigilanteism.

[9:23] Jess McInally: Vigilanteism in the movies.

[9:25] Andrew DeWolf: Real-life vigilanteism is not good. Like these folks call themselves like the guardians of Mary Fagan, and that they eventually became the second reintroduction of the KKK in America and led to this mass exodus of Jewish people from the South.

[9:43] Andrew DeWolf: Like it, this was a huge event. Now I always thought that the KKK came back a lot because of Birth of a Nation.

[9:51] Jess McInally: I'm sure that didn't hurt.

[9:53] Andrew DeWolf: Was that around the same exact time as this?

[9:55] Jess McInally: It wasn't too far off. It was like a ten-year period.

[9:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because I still want to blame D.W. Griffith.

[10:03] Jess McInally: He glorified the KKK.

[10:04] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I think he saw what the knights of Mary Fagan were doing and was like, they these gentlemen seem like they know what they're doing.

[10:13] Jess McInally: Now those gentlemen, they've got a strong head on their shoulders.

[10:18] Andrew DeWolf: I love how this musical, like, reinterprets what is the musical theater structure.

[10:24] Andrew DeWolf: Like, at first, we see these Mary Fagan and this guy named Frankie Epps. And we get the setup of Leo and Lucille as the main couple, and as soon as we see them, we think they're gonna be the secondary couple.

[10:43] Jess McInally: They kind of are.

[10:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Just one of them's dead. And then, like, as soon as she's dead, he becomes hell-bent on getting revenge on whoever killed him.

[10:53] Jess McInally: I actually feel like Frankie doesn't get enough time in the show.

[10:59] Andrew DeWolf: Why do you say that?

[10:59] Jess McInally: I don't know. I just don't remember very many big moments from him except for the big I'm gonna kill him number, and then the actual end where he kills him.

[11:08] Andrew DeWolf: Like I don't remember that much else. By the way. Spoiler alert for history. We've already spoiled the whole show.

[11:13] Jess McInally: Like what I know. I think that he has a few moments peppered in.

[11:18] Andrew DeWolf: They, I think the Don Moore production that we watched that I think is the best production, because the Broadway version was really messed up by a lot of bureaucracy and appealing to Hal Prince and all that.

[11:31] Jess McInally: Um, yeah, the Broadway production is not that great in my opinion.

[11:34] Andrew DeWolf: But either way, um, they dumbed down his character a lot, but they also made the show a little bit more nuanced by doing so.

[11:42] Jess McInally: Was he more of a supervillain type before that, or kind of more like a kid that's talked into being evil, and this one he kind of has his goal and is kind of down with it from that point on?

[11:58] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, it makes sense that he would absolutely despise Leo just because, you know, like he's the one who, well, one of the ones who is the most affected by it, obviously the mother more so who barely is in it, honestly.

[12:12] Jess McInally: She has one scene and then disappears.

[12:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[12:15] Andrew DeWolf: That's a good scene. It has a hell of an ending.

[12:18] Jess McInally: I it's hard to not see this musical as somewhat a response to the O.J. Simpson trial from 1995 that was like going on a little bit before this.

[12:27] Andrew DeWolf: Because once again, you also have people framing evidence using um recent events as an excuse and all that.

[12:36] Jess McInally: Like it's hard to not see that connection. Did you feel that when you watched it?

[12:43] Andrew DeWolf: I did not, but honestly, I don't know very much about the O.J. trial, because when that was happening, I was like a wee boy.

[12:50] Andrew DeWolf: And honestly, I haven't really gone back to look at O.J. stuff.

[12:55] Jess McInally: It's a very intense story.

[12:57] Jess McInally: Like the ESPN did a very good Oscar-winning documentary about it.

[13:00] Jess McInally: So if you're, I mean, there's a lot to it, and I know that it's still kind of up for debate whether or not he people think he did it.

[13:00] Andrew DeWolf: He did it.

[13:08] Jess McInally: He did it. It's like the opposite of Leo Frank, where he didn't do it.

[13:13] Andrew DeWolf: Well, at least we're according to the musical, he definitely didn't do it.

[13:16] Jess McInally: I don't know much about it. But who did do it is the question.

[13:19] Jess McInally: Because the musical doesn't point fingers either. They make it pretty obvious who did it.

[13:25] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I would say.

[13:26] Andrew DeWolf: Who do you think did it?

[13:27] Jess McInally: The Night Watchman guy, like, he just doesn't have any excuses when they go and question him about it.

[13:32] Andrew DeWolf: It's like, uh, well, uh, uh, like, uh, you know, it's it's like, okay.

[13:38] Andrew DeWolf: The Night Watchman guy which one? Are you talking about the guy that said he told me to watch the door of that song, or the first one that's like, I'm trying to remember?

[13:49] Andrew DeWolf: That's who most people believe did it in real life too.

[13:52] Jess McInally: Yeah, because it's like it seems pretty fucking obvious that he has no excuses and just is trying to stick to one story that he was not involved at all, and I'd have no idea.

[14:02] Andrew DeWolf: Well, no, he's like, I was involved, I hid the body.

[14:06] Jess McInally: I didn't kill her, though.

[14:07] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[14:08] Jess McInally: I mean, that's putting you at the scene of the crime at the time of the murder.

[14:12] Andrew DeWolf: Like, what the fuck? That's a terrible alibi, even. But there are still very many people, like, in the South, this is a very hotly debated issue.

[14:22] Jess McInally: Like, the South hate Leo Frank. They see him as a symbol of everything wrong with the world.

[14:29] Andrew DeWolf: They are very much in the belief that he did it. Whereas Alfred Ure, who wrote the book and was like the main spearhead behind this, was like, it's a little bit more complicated than that.

[14:41] Jess McInally: Why aren't you guys like talking about it?

[14:42] Andrew DeWolf: They're like, no, don't even bring that up. And I don't know if this is just because I've never fucking been there, and I just get everything from the media, which obviously a lot of media folks like to spin things against the South.

[14:53] Jess McInally: And I think this musical might be a demonstration of that a little bit, in like making the South look like a bunch of ignorant hicks. But at the same time, like I'm not sure, is that true? I've never really been to the South. I don't really I've never really talked to people from the South.

[15:06] Andrew DeWolf: So it's like I have this disconnect where I don't really know how it really is down there. I mean, back then, even like it seemed like a different country altogether, because you know, like there was a war and everyone's coming back together.

[15:19] Jess McInally: Well, I mean, it kind of was, yeah.

[15:21] Andrew DeWolf: Even now it still feels like a different country in a way.

[15:24] Jess McInally: Well, yeah, and that's why I kind of don't really know what people down there think and what they really what their opinions on things really are. And I know a lot of times they get spun because of the whole Civil War and the Confederacy and all that shit as being they're all insanely racist and the North is not.

[15:42] Andrew DeWolf: Um, but at this time when this show was at this time when this show was like, I there's a lot of things that say that the North was potentially even more racist than the South was, in some ways.

[15:54] Jess McInally: Um I would like you to elaborate on that statement, because I'm just interested in the.

[15:59] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, racism isn't necessarily just I'm going to keep you as a slave, which obviously is incredibly racist. I'm not saying that it's not. Uh um, but it's it's beyond that, like it's like how you look at different races, and in the north, uh places like Boston were doing things where they weren't bussing students to uh proper schools and things like that.

[16:24] Jess McInally: Uh they were doing segregation without announcing it essentially. Um the North could kind of get away with that and not look as racist as the South, because the South was so blatant about everything.

[16:35] Andrew DeWolf: Right. So the South was like blatantly racist. And the North was doing the uh the whole get out racism, you know what I'm saying?

[16:42] Jess McInally: I voted for Obama three times.

[16:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's like and that I feel like that's kind of what get out is even about, so like that's why that movie is so relevant.

[16:51] Jess McInally: Liberal racism.

[16:53] Andrew DeWolf: It's about it's about the northern racism. It's about like, hey, the South does this blatantly, but you guys are fucking doing this too.

[17:00] Jess McInally: Well, it's kind of like uh another musical that talks about racism in a very smart way. Um, as much as a lot of people think it's controversial, is the Scottsboro Boys.

[17:11] Andrew DeWolf: Um there's a song called That's Not the Way We Do It in New York, where this like do you know anything about the Scottsboro trial?

[17:19] Jess McInally: No, I do not.

[17:21] Andrew DeWolf: It wasn't taught to you in school.

[17:23] Jess McInally: Um, I mean, if it was, I don't recall.

[17:26] Andrew DeWolf: Basically, it's about these four boys who were accused of raping this girl, and there was no proof of that, but since it was the South, they basically Oh, okay, yeah, I think I think I've heard of this one, yeah.

[17:37] Jess McInally: But either way, this um New York lawyer comes up and he's like, Well, that is not right. Bye gum, that is not the way we do it in New York.

[17:45] Andrew DeWolf: I see like these they have the colored only signs. Just ask my Maid Jemima how not racist I am.

[17:51] Jess McInally: Ask my servant people how not racist I am.

[17:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and it's like, okay, so you don't have them as slaves, but they're all in these lower classes.

[17:59] Jess McInally: Exactly. You know, and you see the media will spin things like the South is this horrible place where racism is still alive and well, but it's like is it really so different, though?

[18:13] Andrew DeWolf: I I just don't I don't have that experience, so I can't really say if this is like a uh a slander piece against the South or not.

[18:20] Jess McInally: Well, it's written by a Southern man.

[18:22] Andrew DeWolf: So I have a likely not then. I want to tell you a little story about how Jason Robert Brown's came on the project, because Son Time was originally approached and he said, I just did passion, I don't really want to do anything crazy serious again.

[18:36] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[18:37] Andrew DeWolf: So he um the Jason Robert Brown's came on, they were like, Alright, here is the premise. Um just go to writing. And Jason Myer Brown looked up Mary Fagan's tombstone, and it's like said something akin to like the Red Hills of Georgia, and he's like, Okay, that feels like it rhymes.

[18:57] Jess McInally: So he wrote um the old Red Hills of Home. And Alfred Ure, who is a very Southern man, just started weeping because it is such a good description of the patriotism of the people in the South and how they look on themselves.

[19:11] Andrew DeWolf: And I think that song is sincere, but it also is very, very sinister in a way. And we'll get into that further when we get to that song.

[19:21] Jess McInally: The person who sings that song is one of the people in the whole lynch mob at the end, isn't it? A representation of the world we live in, in a way.

[19:31] Andrew DeWolf: So the show opens with a Confederate soldier um in his teenage hood being sent off to war and being like, I go to fight for these old hills behind me, and I will spill the blood of the North upon these hills. Who cares? Fuck 'em.

[19:46] Jess McInally: Then he comes back and he's got one leg and he's old and he's embittered and he's lost the war, and he's like, I still fight for these hills, and I still know what this believes this this area believes in.

[19:58] Andrew DeWolf: And that sets up this world. That is very much equally setting up the world as much as tradition is in Fiddler on the Roof. That sets up the ties between the North and the South, and where we stand after that and how divided we are.

[20:13] Jess McInally: Which is another reason why it's set at Confederate Memorial Day to show that that is still a very much open wound for these people, and explains why they're more quick to blame Leo Frank for this.

[20:23] Andrew DeWolf: Sadly, it's still relevant today, it seems. Like the North and the South don't fucking get along.

[20:28] Jess McInally: No, and it's scary. And I think this show needs a revival in all honesty. Politically speaking, at least most of this show is still pretty relevant.

[20:38] Andrew DeWolf: Even though it's set and it's historically based, but you know, it still seems relevant. Obviously, not to the extent that this was at the time.

[20:49] Jess McInally: Um not at the time of writing, but at the at the actual trial, of course. But it's still pretty relevant today, like story-wise.

[20:57] Andrew DeWolf: What did you think about the romance story between Leo and Lucille? Which basically is the emotional core of the story that isn't like the southern tie to their land.

[21:06] Jess McInally: It's decent, but I think the thing that really ties the show together is more so the drama of the courtroom and the case than the actual the emotion between them, to be honest.

[21:18] Andrew DeWolf: I disagree. I feel like they're the real The They're the ARC, basically, because they it takes going through all this emotional trauma for them to become an actually cohesive pair together.

[21:30] Jess McInally: They don't they are not able to talk to each other, but as soon as like he is thrown in jail and she is on the outside trying to secure his release in whatever way possible, they do finally fall in love.

[21:42] Andrew DeWolf: It is the guy meets girl scenario, except they've been married for a year and they just weren't emotionally able to connect until that very last moment.

[21:52] Jess McInally: No, yeah, it do understand that. It's just really the intrigue of the show is not, oh, are they gonna fall in love for me? The intrigue is all in the drama of the I mean the drama of the technicality, but I think we still need that emotional connection between those.

[22:09] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I think it's it I wouldn't call it what ties the show together, because if you cut all that out, it would still be a pretty interesting show. Um whereas if you remove all the courtroom stuff and just have the love story, it would suck.

[22:23] Jess McInally: I disagree. I think a court uh love story between this girl that isn't like in the first act, she's not convinced he didn't do it. Cause she has to be convinced of it as well.

[22:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like when the reporter is like, You're saying he's a good guy, you're saying like he's emotionally open, but you're not saying he didn't do it. And then she's like, I don't have anything more to say. Like that says a lot, and it shows the growth of like her doing whatever she can to secure his release because she knows he's innocent in the second act.

[22:52] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[22:53] Andrew DeWolf: Like there's growth there, whereas in the trial, yeah, there's a change, but there's no real growth or emotional depth there.

[23:00] Jess McInally: I don't know. I I look at it as a courtroom drama, like uh like a crime. Like if this was a movie, it would be a crime procedural show. Like that that'd be what I want out of it because I think that that's how it works best.

[23:12] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that's effective, but I don't think it's the best part.

[23:15] Jess McInally: Well, I disagree. What do you think of Leo Frank as a character? Because he is a really really hard to like person.

[23:22] Andrew DeWolf: Really? I don't see him as that difficult to like. He's a difficult man. I think he makes some weird decisions, and um I think that he is a little bit distant from a lot of people, but I think that it's justified because of where he is and how he's feeling about everything.

[23:40] Jess McInally: And especially the stuff. The disconnect from his wife is coming from the fact that she is from the South and he's not.

[23:48] Andrew DeWolf: So it's like she's at home and he isn't, and he's disconnected from the world that she's in. Like she wants to go to the Confederate Memorial Parade, and he's like, Why the fuck would I want to do that?

[23:59] Jess McInally: So, like basically she is part of that world, and so he's disconnected from that world, he's disconnected from her.

[24:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Um, any other characters you want to talk about? What do you think of the governor, Jack Slayton?

[24:10] Jess McInally: Uh the government really comes in the second act. And he's kind of the guy that like saves the day a little bit.

[24:16] Andrew DeWolf: Not really. I think the other person that would be interesting just to talk about is just the uh the prosecutor, who is obviously yeah, just like obviously over the top, and for some reason, like way like looking for a conviction, like way more than you'd expect.

[24:33] Jess McInally: He was told he had to get one.

[24:35] Andrew DeWolf: I yeah, but it's like he didn't have the evidence to support it, and it feels like he was being a bit scummy about it, and a lot of the evidence he brings is like falsified and the testimonies.

[24:47] Jess McInally: Circumstantial and all that.

[24:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and it's like you know, that's very scummy.

[24:52] Jess McInally: He's not a good guy.

[24:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he is, and but you still understand him. Like he honestly believes that Leo Frank did this, and he's just trying to get a murderous rapist in jail.

[25:02] Jess McInally: So on that side, like, let's imagine the his point of view where he just sees this guy and he's like, I don't care, I need him dead.

[25:10] Andrew DeWolf: But if you look at it from his perspective, he also knows that all the evidence he's bringing to the table isn't true, or at least is highly exaggerated.

[25:16] Jess McInally: Means to an end, sir.

[25:18] Andrew DeWolf: Means to an end.

[25:19] Jess McInally: Yes, but if you're if you know you have to exaggerate things just to actually get the conviction, then wouldn't the conviction not be something you'd actually believe in?

[25:28] Andrew DeWolf: You're talking all Mark Furman talk at me.

[25:32] Jess McInally: He basically is an equivalent for Mark Furman, for those who know the OJ case. Mark Furman is the defendant. He was the cop that allegedly faked a bunch of evidence because he hated black people.

[25:45] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, that's not unbelievable. He mucked up that entire trial and avoided their I'm not going into the OJ trial. Look it up, you guys. OJ time.

[25:59] Jess McInally: I'm sorry, guys, I'm gonna have to do the mid-show announcement. Jess is horribly sick with uh liver illness, kit kidney stones, he has kidney stones.

[26:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um but we are going to do that mid show announcement. Check this out. Today's show. Uh you could probably do this by heart, but today's show is brought to you by Audible.

[26:20] Jess McInally: And Audible is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30-day trial membership. You just have to go to Audible Trial.comslash musicals with cheese.

[26:29] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and you can browse the unmatched selection of audio programs and even download a title for free and start listening. It's seriously that easy. You just go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese, and you can just listen to whatever book you want.

[26:42] Jess McInally: It's it's the well that as long as it's on there, of course.

[26:45] Andrew DeWolf: Uh why Audible? Well, it's because Audible has a lot of books, has a lot of shows, has news comedy, etc. etcetera. And you could just go on there and listen.

[26:55] Jess McInally: Uh now I'm gonna have Jess uh Jess is back from his kidney stone, so we're going to have Jess recommend a book.

[27:01] Andrew DeWolf: What would you recommend?

[27:02] Jess McInally: This week we're recommending an unspeakable crime, the prosecution and persecution of Leo Frank by Elaine Marie Alfin. Narrated by Kevin Orton.

[27:12] Andrew DeWolf: To download your free audiobook today, you go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese. Again, that's Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese for your free audiobook.

[27:20] Jess McInally: Did you hear me scream as I was pushing out that kidney stone?

[27:23] Andrew DeWolf: It really hurt. I was really trying not to listen to it, but like it sounded like it was at least big.

[27:30] Jess McInally: I cried, and there was a lot of blood.

[27:33] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no.

[27:37] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, guys, let's get back to the show.

[27:40] Jess McInally: The lives every day when the Southland was free.

[27:53] Andrew DeWolf: We gave our lives for the old hills of daughter.

[28:07] Jess McInally: Let's talk about the old red hills of home, which is one of my favorite opening numbers of all time. I think this is a very good song. But I don't think it works that well, I mean it works as an opening number, but it doesn't set anything up at all. It's almost like a standalone song. Like you could just listen to this song and without any context whatsoever, and it's pretty good. And it still would make sense. I think it works very well as an opening number because it sets up the tension between the north and the south, it sets up the location for two, it sets up how everyone's like m um uh moral obligation to their sit their not their city, to their state of Georgia, as well as everything it represents, as well as the reason why you'd understand why they turn against Leo Frank so fast. They it's us versus them, basically.

[28:56] Andrew DeWolf: I I yeah, I can see that. And it also shows how close this was to the civil war. If you if you attach the song that comes immediately afterwards, I think it works really well as an opening number as well. Because that one sets up the modern day tension in everything and like how it's still being remembered. Um whereas the actual old Red Hills song is about tension during the uh civil war, which is a little bit different.

[29:22] Jess McInally: It isn't though, is the thing. It it shows that people who fought in the civil war and despise these people like are still alive, still rr revered.

[29:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[29:34] Jess McInally: They were soldiers. And then at the end we have a different type of soldier. At the end, these soldiers that talk about fighting for the old red hills of home are the KK fucking K. And that is who are fighting for these hills, and that is what fighting for their country and their their state means.

[29:51] Andrew DeWolf: Did they mention the KKK in the show?

[29:53] Jess McInally: No, but I don't remember that. Frankie Epps at the end says, I go to fight for the old hills of Georgia. And that is what he's referring to. I am going to fight against everyone that we hate in this state. Because fuck them, it's us versus them.

[30:07] Andrew DeWolf: And just showing how this entire plot drove that to happen.

[30:10] Jess McInally: No, it's a great song. I think it's great. This is probably one of the best songs in the show.

[30:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[30:15] Jess McInally: And for like Jason Robert Brown's's first musical for a Broadway, like the first notes to ever play a Broadway stage written by Jason Robert Brown's, who was in his twenties. This is a fucking masterpiece.

[30:25] Andrew DeWolf: It's very good. And he is probably the top talent on Broadway right now. Number one, absolute best. Savior of writing, don't you know?

[30:37] Jess McInally: Savior of writing. I mean, he wrote a show where half of it is in reverse.

[30:43] Andrew DeWolf: Can you imagine how difficult of an undertaking that would be to write a show where some of the timeline is backwards? Like, oh my goodness, the amount of pure genius. This man, his head must be this big. Fucking giant, to hold the brain of a genius.

[30:59] Jess McInally: The thing is, I like all of his songs. Like I talk shit about him, but I do like his songwriting.

[31:06] Andrew DeWolf: It's pretty good. I mean, compared to like Andrew Lloyd Weber, he's like head and shoulders.

[31:10] Jess McInally: I don't know. I mean, you got like the Rumtum Tugger songs, you got Mr. Mistopheles. I mean, that's a good one.

[31:20] Andrew DeWolf: These people make me tense.

[31:24] Jess McInally: I live in fear, they'll start a conversation.

[31:27] Andrew DeWolf: These people make no sense.

[31:30] Jess McInally: They talk and I just stare and shut my mouth. It's like a foreign land. I didn't understand that being southern's not just being in the south.

[31:41] Andrew DeWolf: When I look out on all this, how can I call this home?

[31:47] Jess McInally: Let's talk about how can I call this home, which is Leo Frank's I Want song, basically. This is very good too. Thematically. Musically, it's not super memorable, but it's it's pretty good thematically. It's set against the parade, the Memorial Day parade, as he's just trying to get to work, and they're like singing around him. He's like, What is wrong with you, people? What's wrong with you? I'm from Brooklyn. Basically. And he's just like, these people, like, even the Jewish people aren't like Jewish people. I thought the Jews were Jews, but I was wrong.

[32:18] Andrew DeWolf: I like how he interacts with the environment around him. How distant he is from it. And how this song's encapsulates that perfectly.

[32:28] Jess McInally: Right, and it's not he doesn't talk down to them, really. Like he's like, this is just different, and he's not dismissive, but it's just like I don't fit in here.

[32:37] Andrew DeWolf: I mean a little bit. He does have the line that you mentioned earlier, who celebrates losing a war. Which obviously is a little bit dismissive of everything they're celebrating, but he's dismissive of the idea of what they're celebrating, not the fact that they're the people individualize.

[32:53] Jess McInally: He's not like these dumb hicks. Yeah, which is what I said. I think it's a really good, like very smart I want song. It's quick, it's fast, it's not like him turning to like the audience being like, I wish I had adventure out there. I just want to count my money.

[33:12] Andrew DeWolf: I just wanna count my money, cause I'm greedy and I hate the South. I find it interesting that Sontime was originally approached for this musical, because I'm trying to think of how he would write right and structure this the songs in this.

[33:28] Jess McInally: I'm sure it would have been better.

[33:29] Andrew DeWolf: Really? You think it would have been better if Santine did it?

[33:32] Jess McInally: Of course. Sondheim is gold. Everything he touches is gold.

[33:36] Andrew DeWolf: Someone just agreed with me. Someone in the audience just agreed with me.

[33:40] Jess McInally: I don't know. Um I don't like the frogs that much, though.

[33:44] Andrew DeWolf: The fro is that kind of like cats?

[33:46] Jess McInally: Um, kind of, but no. I had an idea for a musical where it's cats, but they're frogs. And like all the frogs have silly names, and then you just sing a song about one frog and he'll leave, and then another frog comes in and you sing a song about that frog.

[33:59] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think it'll work.

[34:01] Jess McInally: I don't think it'll work.

[34:16] Andrew DeWolf: When I ask my own stover, her mama lets her do whatever she wants. I was hoping I could go with you.

[34:24] Jess McInally: Cool, you gotta talk about Mary and Frankie getting introduced.

[34:26] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, let's talk about the picture show. So, how old is Frankie in this show?

[34:29] Jess McInally: I think he's around 15, like mid-teenager. Am I wrong?

[34:33] Andrew DeWolf: This song is basically He Wants to Fucker, and the mother says no.

[34:37] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[34:39] Andrew DeWolf: It's creepy.

[34:40] Jess McInally: It really is a creepy song.

[34:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, she's a child.

[34:44] Jess McInally: Yeah, so is this setting up for us that we're not supposed to like Frankie? Because Frankie's like, oh, he's like a weird sex pervert.

[34:52] Andrew DeWolf: You know what I think this is meant to be?

[34:54] Jess McInally: What?

[34:54] Andrew DeWolf: D have you Oh, that's a bad reference. That's that's a bad framework to put this as. Uh let me think for a second of a way to phrase this. Fuck it, I'm gonna go with my original thought. Have you ever had a classmate die in school? When I was at my graduation, I found out that one of my classmates had died, and I didn't even know him. Every year of my school year, there was a different person from my class that died. And every time there was this one girl that tried to claim she was the best friend of that person and get all the attention from it when I it was obvious she never met them before. It is a good strategy though to go up the social ladder, you know, you gotta claim that you knew this person.

It's horrible. It's like dearly is shit. But where it's better is if you enter that family's home and then sleep with their sister. And I think that's kind of what Frankie is doing nor nevertheless. This shows that, like, yeah, they vaguely knew each other, but he wasn't like her best friend. He was just she was just one of many girls he was trying to get to make out with him, basically.

[35:58] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[35:58] Andrew DeWolf: So really, this does kind of undercut the whole Frankie's super mad because oh my goodness, she was my my best friend ever, a little bit. So it kind of makes him more of that villain type where it's like he really just wants to kill somebody, he's out for blood.

[36:08] Jess McInally: He's out for blood and pussy, nothing else.

[36:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because it's like you have the song where basically he's just like, Man, I'd really like to fuck that girl. Uh, and then she dies, and he's like, She was my best friend of the whole world, and I want to kill whoever did it. If she hadn't died, she would just be a girl I once knew.

[36:35] Jess McInally: Essentially.

[36:48] Andrew DeWolf: And he's she's like he's like, oh no, I wanna go with you. And she's like, alright. Then as soon as she's off stage, he's like, Hey, Iola, wanna go to the pictures with me?

[36:54] Jess McInally: Yeah, so Frankie is a bad dude, and this song sets that up too.

[37:00] Andrew DeWolf: Frankie's a fuckboy.

[37:01] Jess McInally: He's a fuckboy, and you don't trust fuckboys because they will hang your murderer.

[37:06] Andrew DeWolf: Hang someone that was accused of your murder, but not really your murderer.

[37:10] Jess McInally: But was convicted of it.

[37:12] Andrew DeWolf: Was convicted and charged. Yep. Yep. That's why you don't hang around fuckboys, because they will do that.

[37:49] Jess McInally: Let's talk about the funeral song. There's a fountain and it don't make sense. Another Frankie song, Frankie the Fuckboy. You take what you learned from Picture Show, and you're like, oh, okay, he's just kind of making all this up, isn't he?

[38:02] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, at the same time, he probably cares a little bit.

[38:05] Jess McInally: Well, it's kind of like the trauma of like, wow, I it's what would lost and all that, and like but it's real it makes it worse when you know he's talking to the press about this mostly.

[38:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[38:18] Jess McInally: Because it's like he's basically getting interviewed, and he's like, oh man, I it doesn't make sense that I'm not gonna see her anymore, and oh, it's so sad. Like she was so cute, and I liked her, and she was nice.

[38:31] Andrew DeWolf: So it just it's dear of Enhanson, but in 1910 times.

[38:36] Jess McInally: In fact, I I'm kinda wondering if Frankie was supposed to be a red herring, like you think that maybe he did it.

[38:41] Andrew DeWolf: No, I don't think he he didn't do it.

[38:44] Jess McInally: No, no, but I'm wondering if that was the intention of the picture show song.

[38:48] Andrew DeWolf: No, the intention of the picture show song is essentially to make you think this is gonna be a usual classic carousel musical where you got the main couple and the secondary couple, in my opinion.

[38:57] Jess McInally: I suppose. It's more teasing that and being like, ha ha, fuck you. Aha, subverted.

[39:03] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, this musical does subvert your expectations. Like the opening number is sung by a solo guy that's really passionate. It's literally about murdering um the northern soldiers so that they have the right to have slavery. And then they do it again in the beginning of Act Two, and they do it with the secondary couple thing. Like this sh it's all about subverting your expectations. This is the last Jedi, the musical.

[39:26] Jess McInally: It really is. Meaning it is my favorite. Jess's favorite Star Wars movie is The Last Jedi as well.

[39:34] Andrew DeWolf: It it is second.

[39:36] Jess McInally: Is that actually true?

[39:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[39:38] Jess McInally: I've never even watched it.

[39:39] Andrew DeWolf: It's really good. I like it a lot. I I I gotta say, everything I've seen about like Luke and everything looks terrible, but it's your favorite, so you can then you don't know this man.

[39:54] Jess McInally: Uh don't think you call you don't have the rental a man that was and got him decent man. He is an honest man.

[40:16] Andrew DeWolf: And you don't know.

[40:16] Jess McInally: Okay, now we can talk about you don't know this man. Now, this is the song that Lucille sings when basically she's berated with a bunch of folk asking, like, do you think your husband did it? Did he murder that girl? And he she's like, No, you don't know who this is. And she's like, he pays his bills every he writes his mom like he's a good man, and it basically This is just her saying that uh he's good and she can't bring herself to say that he didn't do it though.

[40:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's kind of the thing.

[40:47] Jess McInally: And uh it really sets up in so many words, like her stance on everything.

[40:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think it's it's definitely very good for the romantic subplot. Basically, it just sets up where she stands, and then you have the arc of her going from that to I she definitely didn't do it, and I don't believe that he did it at all. And like she's even considering not going to the trial because she doesn't want to deal with all the shit that's gonna be.

[41:11] Jess McInally: Well, she straight up says she's not going to, doesn't she?

[41:13] Andrew DeWolf: She says she she's not going to, but then she still goes.

[41:17] Jess McInally: Yeah, she does end up going, but she at the end of this song, she has said str strictly she's not going to.

[41:24] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[41:25] Jess McInally: And I don't blame her. That sounds horrible.

[41:27] Andrew DeWolf: It was pretty horrible too. That trial was a fucking mockery. But what do you do? Do you have anything to say about this song altogether?

[41:34] Jess McInally: Not really. I mean, it's just I like it mostly because for female musical theater songs, you don't really get to do something this specific.

[41:42] Andrew DeWolf: How do you mean?

[41:43] Jess McInally: Like most female songs are about like my boyfriend left me or I'm in love, and this one's like, my husband is not the horrible murderer man that you think he is. And I'm like, alright, I haven't seen that very much in a musical solo.

[41:56] Andrew DeWolf: I guess.

[41:57] Jess McInally: I just appreciate it because it's like this is different than most female solos on Broadway.

[42:03] Andrew DeWolf: It's still about love, but yeah.

[42:06] Jess McInally: It isn't though, because I feel like she doesn't love him right now.

[42:09] Andrew DeWolf: But that's what it's about. It's more about like what he does, in the same way that like.

[42:14] Jess McInally: It's uh showing that she doesn't love him, at least not fully.

[42:18] Andrew DeWolf: It's more like, yeah, he's a good man. He does all these things that good people do, right?

[42:23] Jess McInally: That means he's good, right?

[42:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Looking for confirmation in a way.

[42:28] Jess McInally: It's basically her screwing him over so eventually he dies.

[42:33] Andrew DeWolf: This song directly leads to his death.

[42:35] Jess McInally: Come on!

[42:40] Andrew DeWolf: Why don't you come up and come on, come up to my Why don't you come up and come on and come up to my Why don't you come up and come on and come up? Come on, come up, come on, come up, come on, come up, come up and come up Tuesday.

[43:02] Jess McInally: Ah, this is a fun one.

[43:04] Andrew DeWolf: I fucking love the song, dude.

[43:06] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[43:06] Andrew DeWolf: Um, this is where he gets off the he gets off the bench and starts, he's doing what they say he did. Basically, these four girls describe Leo Frank in a way that she they were coached to do as this sexual maniac that calls him up to their office and tries to rape them, basically, on a daily basis.

[43:27] Jess McInally: And in this, we have like a theatrical representation of it, and the actor playing Leo Frank has a chance to act like the horrible monster that they're portraying.

[43:36] Andrew DeWolf: Which Oh, he and he hams it up. It's great.

[43:38] Jess McInally: It is great, and it is upbeat, but it also is so dark and depressing. I think that's the best type of uh song in these like more serious stuff, which is why I think Sweeney Todd works so well as you have all those upbeat songs about horrific things. And I think like that if you're gonna do this type of dark musical, that's the best way to handle it.

[44:01] Andrew DeWolf: Anything this handles it well where it has like the juxtaposed like really upbeat, like come up to my office. This song nails it. Like this is there. I wish there was more of this song in the show, but there's not.

[44:13] Jess McInally: I think in act one they have a lot of it. Act two, it kind of gets more straight serious.

[44:19] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. Um I also like the vocal mixing of the four ladies. Like the four young girls, like when they started like he'll call my name, and it becomes around. It is it sets up that it's like coached very well by having them all say the exact same thing and then going into the flashback.

[44:37] Jess McInally: Like, it is so perfectly constructed. Like as much as I love Old Red Hills of Home, I think this one as a storytelling piece works the best.

[44:47] Andrew DeWolf: This song basically sums up the entire trial. Like they have a bunch of songs making up the trial, but I feel like you could cut all of them except this one, and it would still work perfectly.

[44:57] Jess McInally: I'm gonna disagree with you because we got the next song we gotta talk about.

[45:00] Andrew DeWolf: You don't understand! She didn't wanna play the game, and so I went and hit her.

[45:07] Jess McInally: You see, I had to hit her.

[45:11] Andrew DeWolf: He told me I should go and look. He said she's acting like she's sick, and that's it all that side's dying! That's what I said. And he said, no! No, it ain't my fault that goodies there. He said, No! No! No!

[45:24] Jess McInally: That's what he said!

[45:26] Andrew DeWolf: That's why he said no! No! No! And he's eyes while Wildman's face was red. He said no, no. That's what he's saying! That's why he said that's why he said he said that's why he said that's what he said by Jim Conley.

[45:40] Jess McInally: I love this song. This is like another like really upbeat, dark, demented song.

[45:46] Andrew DeWolf: No, this is the one where he's the this guy was coached as well, and he just makes something up where he's Frank was there and he did the whole thing and told him to watch.

[45:54] Jess McInally: Yes.

[45:55] Andrew DeWolf: And he helped kill him in order to get a commuted sentence for like being an escaped convict and all that.

[46:01] Jess McInally: Yeah. In reality, they like to think that he is the one that actually killed Mary Fagan instead of Leo Frank, Jim Conley. And this one is probably the most frustrating because it's like he's just straight up making everything up. It's like, and nobody calls him on it.

[46:15] Andrew DeWolf: Uh yeah. Is it the only frustrating part to watch, honestly?

[46:21] Jess McInally: It is, but also the song is so catchy.

[46:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's the worst part, is like it is such a catchy, dark, demented song about taking a little girl's body and hiding it.

[46:35] Jess McInally: Yeah, yeah, no, it's uh yeah.

[46:38] Andrew DeWolf: I never touched that girl.

[46:45] Jess McInally: You think I'd heard a child yet. I'd hardly seen her face before.

[46:55] Andrew DeWolf: I swear.

[46:57] Jess McInally: I swore.

[46:59] Andrew DeWolf: We barely met.

[47:03] Jess McInally: These people try to scare you.

[47:09] Andrew DeWolf: With things I never said I know it makes no sense.

[47:19] Jess McInally: But I like Leo's statement. Leo's statement is really depressing.

[47:24] Andrew DeWolf: And I feel like great. This is the one that's like the most emotional in the whole show, I think, personally, but I'm more tied into the whole courtroom plot, so you probably think the one with Leo and Lucille is better.

[47:35] Jess McInally: Um yes, in a way. I think this is a very emotional point, and Leo's only solo number in the entire show, believe it or not, which is strange.

[47:45] Andrew DeWolf: Is it really?

[47:46] Jess McInally: It's the only one where he doesn't have anyone else involved, be it the townspeople or his wife or anything like that.

[47:51] Andrew DeWolf: I guess that kind of makes sense.

[47:52] Jess McInally: And originally in Act 2, Jason Robert Brown's wrote this song called I Have Something to Say. I have something to say. I haven't waited to feel twilight. I'm followed again. With the mobs running around person by name. Dumbling wondering why it's been used to blame. Now I see I want to be free. But it's all up to me.

[48:26] Andrew DeWolf: Where he would just be like, I I didn't do it and all that. But they wisely cut that out because they really wanted to focus more on the wife's um trials and tribulations in Act 2.

[48:37] Jess McInally: I mean, I feel like that makes sense because the show is less about Leo himself and more about everyone else's reaction to him. But this is like the one time he gets to actually say something, and maybe people will listen, and of course they don't.

[48:49] Andrew DeWolf: Of course.

[48:49] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's got really depressing lyrics like, I never touched that girl. You think I'd hurt a child yet? I'd only seen her face before. I swear I swore we'd only mate. These people try to scare you with things I never said. Like very emotionally driven lyrics. And it just makes you really sad because you know that literally no one's gonna listen to him, and immediately following the song, they declare him guilty.

[49:13] Andrew DeWolf: I want to say that I was expecting the subversion uh of he just dies right after that song. And act two is about something completely different. I was literally expecting them to cut from the courtroom scene to him getting hanged. That's what I was expecting.

[49:29] Jess McInally: But nope, we got the little bit of hope in Act Two.

[49:32] Andrew DeWolf: I can tell you this as a matter of fact that the local hotels wouldn't be so pat if a little black girl had gotten attacked. Gone, gone, gone, come! They're coming, they're coming now, yes or real, cause a white man gonna get hungry. There's a black man swinging in never be treated, but they don't never be attention They'll never say wow!

[50:01] Jess McInally: But if a Yankee boy flies surprise, surprise, surprise, they gotta leave attention.

[50:09] Andrew DeWolf: Rumblin' in a Rolling, I think is a really smart song, and I've talked I talk about musical theater structure way too much on this show, but I've said it before. The opening of Act Two should have nothing to do with the main plot of the rest of the musical. It should be kind of a sit down, get your bearings, figure out, because no one ever no one ever takes two dumps. They I did. They always come in in the middle of the first song in Act Two and be like, what did I miss?

[50:36] Jess McInally: Um so the first number of act two should really have nothing big to do with the plot. But you can't really have like a fun dance number at the beginning of Act Two after you just have your main character sentenced to murder. So what do they do? They have two um members of the African American community in the South give their thoughts on the proceedings.

[50:58] Andrew DeWolf: Which is basically like the yeah, Leo Frank's about to get hung. That is our everyday fucking life. And it is another subversion of expectations because it's basically taking everything that we were emotionally invested in in Act One and reminding us, like, yeah, you think that's bad, that's us every single day.

[51:17] Jess McInally: Um yeah, another white man's gonna get hung, great. There's a black man hanging in every tree, but ain't nobody gonna pay attention.

[51:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um Yeah, I kinda hate this song. Because of that.

[51:27] Jess McInally: Let me finish. Like another line is like, um I can tell you this as a matter of fact that the local hotels will never be so packed if a little black girl had gotten attacked. Like it's basically setting up like you only give a shit because it's white people, and that's the only reason why we even know this story. And I get what you're saying where it isn't connected and it's criticizing everything, but I feel like it undermines the entire first act, and you even said it, but I it does, and I don't think it's a good thing.

[51:57] Andrew DeWolf: I think that's I think it's a good thing. We didn't need to be reminded of that.

[52:01] Jess McInally: There's plenty of other media that discusses this topic. We don't need it in this show.

[52:04] Andrew DeWolf: But race is an inherent part of this story, especially with the fact that Jim Conley is where a lot of people tried to place the blame on this murder, who is a black man. But he's also, according to this musical, probably the person who did it.

[52:20] Jess McInally: I feel like it's an elephant in the room and they did the smart thing by addressing it fully.

[52:25] Andrew DeWolf: I don't feel like I mean, if this was just in the middle of act one or in the middle of act two, it wouldn't fit. But the fact that we open right up, we get a different viewpoint on what we just saw.

[52:39] Jess McInally: I just don't think we needed it, and I think it does undermine like you have this big emotional moment from Leo, and then right afterwards they're basically like, Well, yeah, but black people do that all the time, so like his big emotional moment, like who gives a fuck? Like all black people have to do with that, so fuck you.

[52:56] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, the show altogether is about miscarriage of justice, and yeah, miscarriage of justice isn't limited just to Leo Frank.

[53:04] Jess McInally: I agree, but this story is about Leo Frank, so that's who we should focus on.

[53:09] Andrew DeWolf: But America is more than just the whites and the s the white Jews and the white Southerners.

[53:14] Jess McInally: I completely agree. But this story is about Leo Frank, and he's a white Jew. And I'm just saying getting another opinion on that doesn't hurt nothing.

[53:25] Andrew DeWolf: Nope.

[53:25] Jess McInally: And I can get that opinion in any other show. And also you have a lot of African American people that have a story. Like you have his maid, you have um Newt Lee, you have Jim Conley, and also you kinda want to give them more than just being background players. So giving them their own song as well is also helpful in the altogether making this around musical.

[53:49] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. I mean, that's fine. I don't like absolutely despise this song. It's just I think it's an odd political statement to make when that message is really it kind of undermines the story that they're telling.

[54:02] Jess McInally: Which is like you don't want to have like a line of dialogue in your movie that basically takes all of the plot of the movie and is like, oh well, you think that's bad. You should have seen what happened to me last Thursday, and then just not even mention that.

[54:18] Andrew DeWolf: Like, okay.

[54:19] Jess McInally: I will say that it sets up the environment of where we are in act two well as two, because it's also like, okay, everyone's piling in and everyone's coming down from the north, like to talk about Leo Frank, like this isn't normal, but then again, no one's gonna do this shit for us.

[54:37] Andrew DeWolf: It is both narratively setting up a lot of plot as well as having a comment and something to say.

[54:43] Jess McInally: But you did also just say that the first number of the second act should not set up a lot of plot.

[54:47] Andrew DeWolf: I'm saying it does, but we also get that set up in do it alone. Like we kind as well as pretty music with Slaton.

[54:55] Jess McInally: Yeah, I mean, it's fine. I just I don't know. I disagree with throwing in a political message that contradicts the rest of the show.

[55:05] Andrew DeWolf: There is hope flying over a million things that you and I can do.

[55:27] Jess McInally: I'm believed it the things I see in you. This is not over yet, is possibly the highest emotional positive in the entire show. What about the part where they kind of won a little bit, like at the end? I mean, this took it from the very bottom and brings it up. I like it when it you know how in the end of the first Muppet movie when they think they haven't won anything, and then they go out the door and they're like, Oh, everyone's here. Yeah, I'm thinking of the Muppets 2011, not the first Muppets movie. Um it's like that. It's like you he thinks he's gonna die and there's no hope, and then he gets the call saying that the governor is looking into his case, and he's like, Oh my god, like the Reaper isn't coming for me, like the hangman's not coming for me. There is hope, and it's all because of my wife, and I love it. Absolutely. Yeah. And we need this. We need this moment. Like this moment you grab onto like it's the ledge to pull you back on.

[56:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And then they let you go. I mean, they make you feel it for a bit, like then basically we're re-looking at everything in the court case from Act One and being like, nope, that's bullshit, nope, that's bullshit. And it is cathartic to get those like checked off and being like, Yeah. It's uh it's good. I mean, I like the whole plot. I think the plot is great. I love the story of this. It's so sad. Do you have any thoughts about this song altogether?

[56:51] Jess McInally: Like this no, I don't really have honestly. Most of these songs serve their purpose, but there's not really much in terms of this is one of those musicals where they don't have songs that are like singable. There's not really much I can do.

[57:03] Andrew DeWolf: You look at me, and you know I can sing every fucking song in this music.

[57:08] Jess McInally: Okay, yeah, I mean, uh, you can sing anything if you listen to it a hundred times. Like, I've listened to these songs one time when I watched it, and I listened through the soundtrack one more time before we've recorded this episode. Um, so I've listened to them twice, and I can sing like a few lines from old Red Hills, and that's about it.

[57:40] Andrew DeWolf: Leaves too high to touch. Roots too strong to fall the name scaling by to never show I loved you so, and I never knew anything.

[57:44] Jess McInally: I never knew anything.

[58:20] Andrew DeWolf: I think the best song between Leo and Lucille.

[58:23] Jess McInally: I agree. Um it also is a good scene, if that makes sense. Like the scene around it where they're having a picnic and all this. This is the ending that you want them to have, and then they rip it away from you right afterwards. Like they consummate their marriage, and I don't think they've ever had sex up to this point.

[58:42] Andrew DeWolf: Is that true?

[58:43] Jess McInally: Holy shit. He couldn't even say the word procreate in act one, and like in the prison here, and I'm like, alright.

[58:44] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, alright.

[58:55] Jess McInally: And it's just such an appreciation song. Like he's basically talked down to his southern wife this entire musical, and here he's like, look at you. How could I have not been in love with you? What kind of fool could have taken you for granted for so long?

[59:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like And really it represents him falling in love with the South.

[59:15] Jess McInally: No.

[59:16] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no.

[59:17] Jess McInally: Well, you don't think so?

[59:19] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[59:20] Jess McInally: Well, why is she I mean, she's southern at the beginning, they're distant, and he hates the South, and he doesn't like her, and then she comes to him, and now symbolically, that's him falling in love with the South.

[59:33] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, no.

[59:37] Jess McInally: Nope.

[59:38] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. The very next scene is him getting lynched, so nope.

[59:43] Jess McInally: Maybe he liked it.

[59:45] Andrew DeWolf: I like being choked.

[59:48] Jess McInally: He probably didn't like it. I'm willing to bet he didn't like it. I mean, this really what this show ends with is uh the audience is sad, the audience is angry, and that's it.

[1:00:02] Andrew DeWolf: And basically they confirm that he didn't do it. Because they kind of left it up in the air until that very last moment. Because there is the moment early on in the musical where um Mary Fagan comes to see Leo Frank and she's like, Mr. Frank, and then they cut from that scene into like the police knocking on his door. And then here we get that scene again, and instead of saying nothing and cutting away, she just gives him a windmill and says happy memorial day and leaves.

[1:00:28] Jess McInally: Yeah. Which is where this maybe separates from history a little bit, because we don't really know what historically, we don't really know what happened. Whereas this is like, no, he definitely didn't do it.

[1:00:41] Andrew DeWolf: This musical is 100% convinced he didn't do it.

[1:00:44] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[1:00:45] Andrew DeWolf: Which honestly, from what I know about the historical case and everything, just from brief research, seems pretty plausible. Um It's plausible, but not confirmed enough where I can say here or there, and I've been criticized on the past for like siding with the musical altogether, so I'm sure there are some nuances that are completely left out of this, so you can like Leo a bit more, because obviously, if there's any potential that he did it, there's kind of like a well.

[1:01:14] Jess McInally: Um but even if he did do it, this ending scene is totally unjustified and uh miscarriaged. It's a lynching vigilante justice and horrible.

[1:01:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[1:01:25] Jess McInally: And which is more or less the point of why this is wrong, more than like, he didn't do it.

[1:01:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's it it's not a you know, he didn't do it story. It's a story about uh just how bad this sort of thing was.

[1:01:42] Jess McInally: Um did you notice that his song Shma? Um the Shma basically is the Jewish um prayer that you say when you believe you're about to die. Um is the same melody of old Red Hills of Home.

[1:01:56] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think I noticed that, no.

[1:01:58] Jess McInally: So his call to like his religion, his culture is the same call that they have to their rel their culture and their belief system, which I thought was like a really smart way to lead into the finale as well.

[1:02:12] Andrew DeWolf: That is smart.

[1:02:13] Jess McInally: But Lucille believes that Leo is free with God after everything. So there is that bit of hope. And the Confederate Memorial Day keeps going on in the backdrop of Dorsey, the man who pretty much got Leo Frank in prison and was part of the Knights of Mary Fagan, um, taking Jack Slayton's place as governor of Georgia, and sh Lucille's trapped in this state that killed her husband and hates her kind.

[1:02:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, why did she not leave?

[1:02:42] Jess McInally: Because Georgia is her home.

[1:02:44] Andrew DeWolf: But like it wasn't always.

[1:02:46] Jess McInally: It seems like she moved there recently.

[1:02:48] Andrew DeWolf: No, she's a southern girl.

[1:02:50] Jess McInally: Yeah, but like she did live in the north at some point.

[1:02:53] Andrew DeWolf: She's left before.

[1:02:56] Jess McInally: And it ends on such a dark reprise of the opening number, and they're talking about fighting, and it's it's such a bleak ending, and I love it.

[1:03:07] Andrew DeWolf: It's yeah.

[1:03:08] Jess McInally: I don't know. It's it just makes me a little angry, but I think that's the intention.

[1:03:13] Andrew DeWolf: You're here by the door, and you'll hold in my arm, and you're stroke in my head and you'll finally break.

[1:03:30] Jess McInally: Why does it happy memorial day?

[1:04:00] Andrew DeWolf: For these old hills remind me of a way of life that's pure of the truth that will enjoy in the city of Atlanta in the old red hills of So Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on parade and your cheese rating?

[1:04:33] Andrew DeWolf: Overall, the story is fantastic. Um if you want something that is gonna have a lot of really fun musical numbers, you probably shouldn't be watching this. Um it's uh it's a serious musical, it's one of those.

[1:04:46] Jess McInally: Um, which I always deduct points for that.

[1:04:49] Andrew DeWolf: How dare you take yourself seriously?

[1:04:51] Jess McInally: Honestly, though, like for real. You know, I I'm out here for a fucking fluffy piece to release all my bluesicles, you know what I'm saying?

[1:05:02] Andrew DeWolf: I kind of do.

[1:05:08] Jess McInally: I like the story a lot in this, and it's very nice, and it's very serious, and it's I I appreciate that. Um, but it just doesn't have the fun that I want, but I can understand why you'd like it a lot.

[1:05:24] Andrew DeWolf: And it's definitely of the serious musicals we've watched, this is probably one of my favorites.

[1:05:29] Jess McInally: As far as cheese rating, is there a distinctly southern cheese?

[1:05:34] Andrew DeWolf: Because I don't really know of one.

[1:05:36] Jess McInally: I got mine.

[1:05:38] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, well, I'll let you go with that then. What's your thoughts?

[1:05:41] Jess McInally: Um, Parade is one of my favorite musicals of all time. Currently it's like my number one, but that changes week to week. But um Jason Robert Brown's has never been as good as he was in this musical, and it's so baffling that this was his first Broadway musical ever.

[1:05:56] Andrew DeWolf: Um I can understand why he got so big headed from it.

[1:06:00] Jess McInally: Um the original Broadway production is a bit of a mess, but the original Broadway cast album is pretty good.

[1:06:06] Andrew DeWolf: Um the Donmar Warehouse album is very good as well, because it is very complete.

[1:06:11] Jess McInally: It has every line of dialogue and such, so if you want the full story, I recommend you give that a listen.

[1:06:16] Andrew DeWolf: And my cheese reining is Solgini Cheese, which is specifically made in Georgia, the where the old Red Hills are.

[1:06:26] Jess McInally: I'm just gonna stick with whatever Jess said for cheese rating, because I don't know any Southern cheeses.

[1:06:31] Andrew DeWolf: So I got nothing on that.

[1:06:33] Jess McInally: Well, you know what? Today's show is brought to you by Audible.

[1:06:37] Andrew DeWolf: Fucking Audible is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30-day free trial membership. Just go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs. Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy. Go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese.

[1:06:55] Jess McInally: Thank you guys for listening. Um please follow us on iTunes Spotify Stitcher at Music Goldswith Cheese. Leave us a review. We're gonna give out another iTunes gift card. We need more reviews. Just review us. Tell your friends to review us.

[1:07:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[1:07:09] Jess McInally: Yes, please. Follow us on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals. We're on Patreon at Musicals with Cheese. We have a cat's commentary, and we just released a commentary on the music man made in 2003 with Matthew Broderick.

[1:07:21] Andrew DeWolf: Um we haven't recorded it yet, but I'm sure it's hilarious.

[1:07:24] Jess McInally: It's up there right now, though.

[1:07:25] Andrew DeWolf: Um our Instagram is Musicals with Cheese. Give us a follow, send us a like and all that. Our YouTube page is Musicals with Cheese, and there's a brand new YouTube video up there right now, so check that out.com.

[1:07:39] Jess McInally: Give us some attention. Tell us how you like us. Our title card was created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Follow her on Instagram at Jolene Casco.

[1:07:48] Andrew DeWolf: And you do want to talk about our affiliate link.

[1:07:50] Jess McInally: Sure, there's an Amazon affiliate link in the description of all of our episodes. If you're gonna buy anything on Amazon, just click that link before you purchase, and we'll get a portion of that at no extra cost for you. Um it's excellent. Just give it a click.

[1:08:01] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Andrew, is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

[1:08:05] Jess McInally: One more thing to kind of throw out there. I do want to say that the plot of this was pretty heavily ripped from my cousin Vinny. Um, and it's a little bit upsetting to see something so blatantly stolen.

[1:08:16] Andrew DeWolf: Uh so I do want to just say uh that shame on you, Jason Robert Brown's, for ripping off such a classic film.

[1:08:24] Jess McInally: You know what I gotta say, Andrew?

[1:08:26] Andrew DeWolf: I go to find four of these old heels behind me.

[1:08:31] Jess McInally: These old red heels of home.

[1:08:35] Andrew DeWolf: I gotta find for me.

[1:08:37] Jess McInally: Alright, Yankee, you're not allowed to sing this shit, okay?

[1:08:40] Andrew DeWolf: You're not allowed to sing this, okay?

[1:08:41] Jess McInally: Ready for the song of our people.

[1:08:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yankee Doodle went to town riding on a pony.

[1:08:48] Jess McInally: Alright, folks, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.