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[2:02] Jess McInally: Let's let's start the actual show, right, Jess?

[2:05] Jess McInally: Let's go.

[2:06] Jess McInally: Yeehaw.

[2:12] Jess McInally: Hello, I'm Jesse McInally.

[2:14] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[2:15] Jess McInally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[2:20] Jess McInally: And Andrew, we have an incredible guest today.

[2:22] Andrew DeWolf: We have such a good guest.

[2:24] Jess McInally: We have musical theater historian, teacher, performer, and creator of web series um Stealing Focus, Emily Clark.

[2:31] Emily Clark: Hey, howdy.

[2:33] Emily Clark: Howdy.

[2:38] Emily Clark: Oh, y'all.

[2:38] Emily Clark: I'm from SoCal.

[2:40] Emily Clark: I don't know why I'm doing the boys.

[2:41] Emily Clark: It sounds more like a Tennessee, Oklahoma kind of accent.

[2:45] Emily Clark: They say we belong to the land.

[2:48] Emily Clark: The land we belong to is crap.

[2:52] Jess McInally: So I think we've blown our load a little bit on this, but Emily, what are we talking about today?

[2:57] Emily Clark: So we're talking about Oklahoma with an exclamation point.

[3:00] Emily Clark: You must always remember the exclamation point.

[3:02] Emily Clark: Uh it's important.

[3:03] Emily Clark: Stylization is important.

[3:05] Emily Clark: Yeah, by Rogers and Hammerstein.

[3:07] Emily Clark: There's a bright golden haze on the meadow.

[3:12] Emily Clark: There's a bright golden haze on the meadow.

[3:16] Emily Clark: The corn is as high as I'll often sign.

[3:22] Emily Clark: And it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky.

[3:31] Emily Clark: Oh, what a beautiful moon.

[3:35] Emily Clark: Oh, what a beautiful day.

[3:40] Emily Clark: I got a beautiful feel everything's going my way.

[3:48] Emily Clark: Oklahoma is the first musical written by the team composer Rogers Richard Rogers and librettist Oscar Hammerstein II.

[3:55] Emily Clark: The musical is based on Lynn Riggs' 1931 play, Green Grow the Lilac, set in farm country outside of the town of Claremore and Indian territory in 1906.

[4:05] Emily Clark: That tells a story of a farm girl Lori Williams and her courtship to two rival suitors Cowboy Curly McLean and the sinister and frightening Farmhand Judd Fry.

[4:14] Emily Clark: A secondary romance concerns a cowboy Will Parker and his flirtatious fiancée, Aido Annie.

[4:20] Emily Clark: Original Broadway production opened in March 31st in 1943.

[4:24] Emily Clark: It was a box office smash and ran for an unprecedented 2,212 performances.

[4:30] Emily Clark: Later enjoying an award-winning revivals, national tours, foreign productions, and an Academy Award-winning 1955 film added.

[4:40] Emily Clark: It has been for the most It has been a popular choice among school and community productions as well.

[4:46] Emily Clark: The Rogers and Hammerstein also won the Pulitzer Prize for Oklahoma in 1944, which is highly unprecedented.

[4:53] Jess McInally: They didn't win the Pulitzer Prize for Oklahoma.

[4:56] Jess McInally: They won a special Pulitzer Prize, Jess.

[4:59] Jess McInally: A special Pulitzer Prize for Oklahoma.

[5:02] Jess McInally: They won the Pulitzer for South Pacific.

[5:03] Emily Clark: They should have been.

[5:22] Jess McInally: Thanks for that, Jess.

[5:23] Jess McInally: Speak for yourself.

[5:24] Jess McInally: I'm at least a know-it-all.

[5:25] Jess McInally: Let's say that about stuff like this.

[5:28] Emily Clark: That's great.

[5:28] Emily Clark: So tell us a little about a bit about your history with Oklahoma.

[5:32] Emily Clark: Well, okay, uh, so I, you know, this is a show I've never done.

[5:36] Emily Clark: I've taught it a lot.

[5:38] Emily Clark: I've taught students songs from it, and I've known about it uh since I was very young.

[5:44] Emily Clark: Um my uh my mom started a musical theater summer program when I was a kid, and our first year it was a review of Rogers and Hammerstein musicals.

[5:53] Emily Clark: So in the mid-90s, when most kids were listening to like the Green Day album, I was like, I gotta binge all the Rogers and Hammerstein classics.

[6:02] Emily Clark: So I became obsessed with all those shows.

[6:06] Emily Clark: And um Oklahoma's always been very interesting to me because a lot of people, you know, when I bring it up, they give the ugly Oklahoma, you know, they turn their nose up at it and they sneer.

[6:15] Emily Clark: Um they go, I hate that show because they probably did some.

[6:18] Emily Clark: More like Oklahoma.

[6:20] Emily Clark: Oh my god, am I right?

[6:21] Emily Clark: But it's because they probably remember some like horrible high school production they did, and um kind of a lot of the really great stuff about the show tends to go over people's heads or um the fact that it is so important in the history of musical theater.

[6:36] Emily Clark: It kind of changed the game in terms of how we write musicals.

[6:40] Emily Clark: So I've always uh liked to champion that.

[6:43] Emily Clark: And then ever since the revival, uh Oklahoma's kind of been cool again.

[6:47] Emily Clark: So, you know, they didn't change a single word in that revival, so I've been proven right.

[6:52] Emily Clark: It's a good show.

[6:53] Emily Clark: Damn it.

[6:54] Andrew DeWolf: Well, they added a few things, like assless chaps.

[6:57] Emily Clark: Oh, they they added a lot of things, but none of the text is changed, which is very exciting.

[7:02] Emily Clark: Now, Andrew, this is your first time experiencing Oklahoma, and I sent you um the more recent production, their cast album, as well as the 1999 um Hugh Jackman video.

[7:13] Andrew DeWolf: What did you think of the Hugh Jackman one?

[7:15] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I like most of the songs and I like some of the story stuff, but it it feels very cool.

[7:21] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[7:22] Andrew DeWolf: It seems like especially at the beginning, it kind of drags.

[7:25] Andrew DeWolf: There's not a lot that happens early on.

[7:28] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, but once it gets going, it's pretty good.

[7:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I I'm willing to agree with both of you in a way.

[7:35] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's a very important piece in the grand scheme of musical theater history, but I don't think it is aged nearly that well, and I don't even think it is Rogers and Hammerstein's best work, let alone one of the greats of musical theater.

[7:49] Emily Clark: You you don't think it's one of the greats of musical theater?

[7:53] Andrew DeWolf: I would not rank this among the greats of musical theater, sadly enough.

[7:56] Andrew DeWolf: It is historical, it is important, but I do not think it has aged well.

[8:01] Emily Clark: Okay.

[8:01] Emily Clark: I think things even even something like carousel, as problematic as that is, has aged a little better than this.

[8:08] Emily Clark: Ooh, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that.

[8:10] Andrew DeWolf: Woof.

[8:11] Emily Clark: And I completely understand why everyone.

[8:13] Emily Clark: Oh, fight, fight, fight.

[8:15] Andrew DeWolf: No, no fighting.

[8:18] Emily Clark: So this is an old argument.

[8:20] Emily Clark: I think a lot of the things from the original musical comedies are still here, and it they're just very blatant, and they stand out like a sore thumb, as well as the musical theater structure that is basically defined in this is not developed into the way that we are used to, as well, especially when we get to things like Sound of Music, Carousel, South Pacific, and all that.

[8:40] Emily Clark: Well, can I um can I give you a little history lesson right now of why?

[8:46] Andrew DeWolf: Let's go.

[8:47] Emily Clark: Okay, so let me take let me take y'all back.

[8:49] Emily Clark: Let me take you back to pre 1943.

[8:52] Emily Clark: So, in fact, I'm gonna take you back even earlier to 1927 with a little musical called Showboat.

[8:58] Emily Clark: And Showboat was written by Jerome Kern and our buddy Oscar Hammerstein II.

[9:03] Emily Clark: He wrote the lyrics.

[9:04] Emily Clark: Now, before Showboat, pretty much musicals were not what we think of them today.

[9:11] Emily Clark: They were very much in the style of musical reviews almost.

[9:17] Emily Clark: Vaudeville style.

[9:18] Emily Clark: Exactly, like vaudeville.

[9:19] Emily Clark: Um, it was based sometimes there was like a story.

[9:23] Emily Clark: Uh a lot of times it was like shenanigans song, shenanigans song loosely connected.

[9:30] Emily Clark: And a lot of the great um musical theater composers that we think of, like the Gershwins or Irving Berlin wrote musicals in that style because this was before rock and roll.

[9:41] Emily Clark: So pop music was essentially musical theater music with show tunes.

[9:45] Emily Clark: And you wouldn't listen to stuff on you know the radio, you'd buy sheet music and sit around the family piano and sing these songs.

[9:52] Emily Clark: So these shows were showcases for the hits.

[9:55] Emily Clark: So Richard Rogers had been writing with a guy named Lorenz Hart, Larry Hart, Rogers and Hart, and they wrote a bunch of musicals you've probably heard of and a bunch of standards you've probably heard of.

[10:05] Emily Clark: And then Oscar Hammerstein writes the show, Showboat.

[10:08] Emily Clark: And Showboat was the first musical that kind of took the, well, we used to call them, they used to call them musical comedies, but you couldn't really call Showboat a musical comedy.

[10:18] Emily Clark: It had deals with very serious subject matter.

[10:21] Emily Clark: Um, it has an integrated cast, it's very deep.

[10:24] Emily Clark: Um so we get to the 1940s, and Hammerstein's been kind of washed up for a bit.

[10:31] Emily Clark: You know, he hasn't had a hit in a while.

[10:33] Emily Clark: And Richard Rogers' partner, uh, Larry Hart, he is in the closet, he's an alcoholic, he's coming to the end of his life.

[10:41] Emily Clark: He's like drinking himself to death.

[10:43] Emily Clark: So Rogers is like, okay, I gotta move on.

[10:46] Emily Clark: So these two kind of titans at the height, well, kind of like who've had all these decades of experience, decide, hey, let's team up and let's write this show.

[10:55] Emily Clark: And they wrote the very first show where the songs follow the story.

[11:02] Emily Clark: If you take the songs out of, let's say a show like Anything Goes, the story still makes sense.

[11:10] Emily Clark: It's still like shenanigans, and then it's like, you're the top, and it doesn't add anything to the story, but it's fun.

[11:15] Emily Clark: But with Oklahoma, it was the first time you had the songs driving character development, um, songs driving the story.

[11:22] Emily Clark: It was the very first time, instead of just like a tap break, you know, where a bunch of people do some amazing dancing, they had dance as an integrated storytelling element.

[11:32] Emily Clark: So uh, you know, the dream ballet by Agnes DeMille, uh, the top of the uh sorry, the end of the first act.

[11:39] Emily Clark: So all these things that we kind of take for granted now were positively revolutionary at the time.

[11:46] Emily Clark: And a lot of composers were super skeptical about it.

[11:49] Emily Clark: They called them situation shows.

[11:50] Emily Clark: Like Irving Berlin was like, I don't trust this, whatever, I'm gonna write Annie, get your gun.

[11:55] Emily Clark: So and then meanwhile, like younger generations of composers like Comden and Green and you know, um, Bernstein were looking at this Oklahoma and were like, holy crap, it was like Hamilton to them.

[12:06] Emily Clark: It was like or hair.

[12:08] Emily Clark: You know, it's a it's a show that completely redefines the genre.

[12:12] Emily Clark: And then everything that came after it, it's you know uh kind of is defined by it.

[12:18] Emily Clark: So Rogers and Hammerstein were able to kind of up themselves with each musical they wrote, uh, with the exception of some crappy ones we don't talk about, but like um Oklahoma, Oklahoma, you know, if it is the weakest of their sh catalog, it's for a reason.

[12:34] Emily Clark: It's because with each one they push the envelope a little bit more, a little bit more.

[12:38] Emily Clark: And arguably, Sound of Music was, well, not arguably, the critics were like, it's cheesy.

[12:42] Emily Clark: It's like, what is this? These are the guys who wrote South Pacific. Now they're giving us this like happy little story.

[12:47] Jess McInally: I know.

[12:47] Emily Clark: And then it was the biggest hit that they ever had. So, you know, and then um Hammerstein died right as it came out. He died in like 1959. Um, so he didn't even get to deal with the film. That's a tangent. Anyway, so uh it's interesting that you're like, it's kind of like these old musicals, it's the structure of these old musicals, which it is, but like there are older musicals before that that we don't even do anymore because Oklahoma just completely changed the game and changed the structure.

[13:17] Jess McInally: And um there are also things about it that I like that uh can, you know, can vary from production to production, you know.

[13:25] Emily Clark: I have always liked, or I hate it when people don't get that Aido Annie is like a sex positive fun character. Um, she just likes to have sex, she likes to bone, and I like that she likes to bone. And in the end, she kind of gets the final say on it. Um, and that's kind of crazy in the 40s where you had, you know, women weren't exactly celebrated like that on stage. Um, and uh it can come down to direction in a lot of ways, but the revival that I saw with um Allie Stroker, she was like, oh my god, she was such a hit. She was like a little Dolly Parton. She was just like, whatever, like having a rip-roaring good time with all the cute boys on stage. And I was like, yeah, this is a blast.

[14:04] Jess McInally: So um it's uh it's an important musical in our history, and it's important to know about. And um, I think the revival really helps to kind of make some of it relevant. You know, they cut a lot of, I guess what you would say uh trim a lot of the fat out of the revival. Um, it's not quite as long because there aren't huge extended dance numbers. Um, there's like a cast of like 10 instead of like 40. Um the dream ballet is insanely different. Uh so there are different ways to do it. Um, and I like that they mess with it because I like I feel like it's one of those things like almost like Shakespeare at this point is like if you're gonna do it, don't just do the same old thing. Let's try to deconstruct, let's try to uh find out what was so exciting and relevant about it in the first place.

[14:54] Emily Clark: And I think the revival does that pretty well. So yeah, that was your little history lesson.

[14:59] Jess McInally: And I'm inclined to agree with you on every single fact there. Um, but the one thing that I do want to bring up that this was actually said to me in the one musical theater class I took in my undergrad um when they brought up Oklahoma and they used a really interesting film comparison.

[15:16] Emily Clark: Um they compared Rogers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma to D.W. Griffith's um Birth of a Nation, where yes, it did set up a lot of things that are now important for filmmaking and all that, and same for musical theater, but that doesn't not mean that it should be as revered as some of the work that came after it.

[15:36] Jess McInally: That's quite a strong comparison.

[15:39] Emily Clark: I know, I was equally as baffled. I wouldn't say it.

[15:46] Jess McInally: There's like birth of a freaking nation, and like uh, but I definitely that much racy stuff in it. I mean, there's like a little bit, but no, no, not at all.

[15:51] Emily Clark: There's not at all. Um, but you know, well, I think it was more like in the sign of Oh yeah.

[15:56] Jess McInally: But the revival.

[16:00] Emily Clark: I understand, yeah.

[16:02] Jess McInally: Sure, sure, sure. And you know what? You don't have to like Oklahoma. Like, you know, you can like what you like, and and it uh if a musical doesn't connect with there's plenty of old musicals that I'm supposed to like. There's plenty of new musicals I'm supposed to like that I don't connect to. But um that's the fun thing about musical theater history is to like kind of finding these tentpole moments and see where kind of things shifted.

[16:20] Emily Clark: Cause it's so when I teach this class to students, it's almost insane to them that the structure of musicals were just so completely different than what we're used to today. And at the time they were just like, what, this is what it is. This is entertainment.

[16:34] Jess McInally: So um it's just fascinating to me.

[16:36] Emily Clark: And um and I like it. I think there's a lot of fun stuff in the show, and it's always great to, you know, there's a reason why high schools do it all the time. It's simple enough and it has a lot of parts.

[16:49] Jess McInally: I do have a question about the new revival vocal, because that has brought a lot of controversy to it. And I have not seen it yet. I do hope to see it one day.

[16:56] Emily Clark: Oh, it's so cool.

[17:00] Jess McInally: It's so cool.

[17:02] Emily Clark: But Andy Hammerstein, um, uh one of um Oscar's descendants had this to say about it. And I'm curious, and it inspired me to make a video about it a little while ago.

[17:13] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[17:14] Emily Clark: I abhorred it. It was an irresponsible travesty masquerading as experimental. Up is not down. Sadis Curly shoots sweet victim Judd in cold blood. I am utterly disgusted that Rogers and Hammerstein lacked the balls to stop this. I urge everyone to keep their money in their pockets on this one. Let it die. The egg ignominious death it deserves.

[17:36] Jess McInally: Well That's a yikes moment.

[17:38] Emily Clark: That is the yikes. I mean, it is there was stuff about it that I didn't like for sure. There were um heartfelt moments that I felt they kind of made really serious and somber and almost aloof uh where I felt like they didn't need to be.

[17:59] Jess McInally: Um and there were a couple other moments like that. But I'm glad Oklahoma is finally, I don't know, I kind of like that it gets such a visceral response from someone.

[18:10] Emily Clark: Because usually people are just like, oh, you know, this is like Twinkie Little show about cowboys or whatever. Um and uh, you know, I think I don't know if Oscar Hammerstein would have liked it. I think he was all about pushing the envelope. He was, you know, a big ol' like liberal who wanted to change things and try new things. So I certainly think he wouldn't be against it.

[18:35] Jess McInally: Um, you know, there was the the most other notable production of Oklahoma I can think of in recent years was in um Oregon a couple years ago, and they did a version where they changed the genders of a lot of the characters.

[18:50] Emily Clark: Uh and they got permission from Rogers and Hammerstein from because Rogers and Hammerstein owns the rights to their own stuff. So they got permission from it. All they had to do was change pronouns.

[18:59] Jess McInally: And so I think Curly was a black woman, Lori was a white woman, uh Aido Annie was Ado Andy, um, Will was a black man, and Aunt Eller was a trans woman.

[19:10] Emily Clark: And they gave them the permission to do that. So I think even if, yeah, I mean, like, he didn't like it, and I could definitely see why some people wouldn't like it, especially people who have a fondness for the original show, and people who might have been alive when the original show um came out. Uh but uh I don't know, I'm kind of like, let's burn it down, let's try new stuff and see what sticks.

[19:32] Jess McInally: Cause there was a lot about the characters that I thought was new and interesting and I didn't realize before until I saw this.

[19:39] Emily Clark: And I guess like with any art, it depends on the director and the direction. This is the direction they wanted to take it. I love that they have this small uh they have like a maybe six to eight piece combo, like string combo, country combo on the stage, playing all the music.

[19:57] Jess McInally: And so while hearing the show with a lush orchestra is amazing, like hearing just really like kind of the down home stomp in your boots country stuff side of it was amazing. Like, and it really got the audience going, especially when they sang the title song when they sang Oklahoma.

[20:14] Emily Clark: Um like the dream ballet is so weird. It's so completely the opposite of the intention. And I could kind of of the original intention of the original production, and I could kind of feel a lot of the older people around me kind of being like, what the fuck am I watching? Whereas I was sitting there kind of like, yeah, kind of squinting, going, okay, I don't know if I like this, but I'm intrigued by this.

[20:39] Jess McInally: I'm curious, though. What did they change about it? Because I haven't seen the

[20:41] Emily Clark: Okay, so the original is uh all it's it's Lori going into her like basically like I don't know, what is it? Like her.

[20:54] Jess McInally: She goes into the porn field of her mind.

[20:56] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah. She gets that elixir of Egypt from The Pedlar Man, and then she drinks it, and then um she uh has like a dream sequence, and it's basically her debating between uh Curly and Judd.

[21:10] Jess McInally: And uh it kind of shows the romantic side of Curly, but also how like the Judd side is like scary and sexy.

[21:18] Emily Clark: And then at the end she kind of sees what could happen if she ends up with him. And it's full of these, this really iconic choreography that, you know, just like kind of like Fossey choreography or Jerome Robbins, like that choreography is just so in musical theater.

[21:34] Jess McInally: It's well known.

[21:35] Emily Clark: Um first of all, they ended the first act without the dream ballet. So she sends sings into a dream with you.

[21:45] Jess McInally: And it was like intermission, have some cornbread and chili.

[21:48] Emily Clark: And I was like, crap, oh my god, they cut out the dream ballet. Okay, so we're really doing this. So then we come back for act two, and the dream ballet is now at the top of act two.

[21:57] Jess McInally: And instead of like a whole dream ensemble, it's one girl.

[22:01] Emily Clark: She's only in this dance number. She is short, she's African American, she's bald, she's wearing a big oversized t-shirt that says Dream Baby Dream.

[22:10] Jess McInally: And she does, and it's crazy.

[22:10] Emily Clark: It's crazy. It's crazy. So, like where the original was using dance as a literal storytelling technique. This production is like, let's make it all interpretive.

[22:23] Jess McInally: So it's kind of like these opposite choices.

[22:25] Emily Clark: And then the score, as far as I could tell, it's still the same entire music, the orchestration, but they do a bunch of crazy shit with it, like play it on top of each other, minor keys, like it's crazy.

[22:38] Jess McInally: She has a couple moments where she does the iconic choreography, but the rest is just so it's just like an uh an interpretive dance.

[22:46] Emily Clark: Um it's crazy. Uh I still don't know if I like it, but I was still a little avant-garde.

[22:53] Jess McInally: I don't know.

[22:54] Emily Clark: Well, it was very avant-garde. So uh it was a choice.

[22:57] Jess McInally: And um it, I mean, it was a beautiful dance. It was interesting to watch, and there was a point being made with it.

[23:04] Emily Clark: I'm not sure if I know what it is, but uh it was a choice.

[23:09] Jess McInally: And you know, if you've seen Oklahoma a million times, it definitely kind of throws you for a loop, which I think is it's gotta be the intention behind it.

[23:17] Emily Clark: Um yeah, I'm trying to think what else.

[23:23] Jess McInally: Oh, so one of the things that I really like that this production does, which I don't think a lot of productions have done before, is they really play up the fact that Lori is attracted to Judd, and that's scary for her because it's dangerous.

[23:38] Emily Clark: Um, and in other productions, I've always been like, I don't know, like he seems really into her, but she seems not so into him. I don't know what her problem is. Like obviously pick curly, you know. Why would you pick this guy?

[23:48] Jess McInally: Um He's like a weird creepo.

[23:53] Emily Clark: He's a super creepo. And and um don't this production kind of plays up that she is attracted to him. They do have like a few moments where you're kind of like, oh damn, oh shit.

[24:09] Jess McInally: Uh and I I really liked that.

[24:11] Emily Clark: Um, they went with a completely different casting choice for Judd. Um, you know, usually it's like a Rod Steiger guy, like big beefy kind of guy.

[24:20] Jess McInally: And this guy was very like delicate and skinny and like had kind of long hair.

[24:26] Emily Clark: He looked like a, I mean, he was like really handsome, but he looked like the kind of guy who would like be on the internet all day, you know, just kind of like a little more of an outsider, like a little more, and that's kind of what this production does.

[24:37] Jess McInally: They play up that he's an outsider and they don't trust him.

[24:40] Emily Clark: Um, and it's you know, it's a choice, it's a neat way to kind of point out some of the elements of the show that have always been kind of like I don't know how I feel about this.

[24:51] Jess McInally: Like it makes it less of like, he's the villain and a little more complicated.

[24:55] Emily Clark: Uh, which I thought was interesting.

[24:57] Jess McInally: Um, and again, some people are gonna like it, some people are not.

[25:00] Emily Clark: I don't know. I thought did you feel that cur our Curly was a sadist for murdering Judd?

[25:07] Jess McInally: No, okay.

[25:08] Emily Clark: So what this should be. Judd shut first, guys.

[25:10] Jess McInally: Okay, yeah, so oh my god.

[25:12] Emily Clark: Well, so let me explain because he doesn't actually explain that very well. So, what what happens in that moment is um Judd uh comes back in, they're all like having their wedding, and instead of him like doing that whole like, hey, I'm gonna kiss the bride, like screaming shit that he does like in the movie, he comes in and he's like very quiet and sweet, and he's like, Here, I got a present for you.

[25:37] Emily Clark: He walks over to Curly and he hands him a gun, and then he goes over to Lori and kisses her, and then he like stands in front of both of them, and then basically takes a step like he's gonna go for them, and then he shoots him.

[25:51] Andrew DeWolf: So it's like suicide by cop almost.

[25:56] Emily Clark: But um, except it's Curly. And then in the next scene, the next scene was fascinating because it's the let's do the courtroom in the living room scene so Curly can go off to his honeymoon. And he's like, Oh god. And usually that scene is just a little too I know it's just a little too like um happy for what just happened. And so the you know, like Oh, Judd's dead. Who cares? No, no, Andrew. Judd is dead. Judd is dead. Judd is dead, but in the revival, what they do is they um all they again, they keep all the lines the same, but the intention the actors all have is we're all gonna say this is what happened, because this is what happened, right? We are getting our story straight, right? So it's like you saw him, you saw him.

He, you know, fell on his own knife, you know? He ran at Curly, you saw it. And so that I thought was like really a cool take on that scene. Um and they do a really kind of cool effect too with that gunshot. Like it kind of comes out of the floor somehow. So, or he shoots Judd, and then this like blood spray sprays all over Lori and Curly, and they're in their wedding whites covered in black.

[27:12] Andrew DeWolf: Oh shit.

[27:13] Emily Clark: I'm not drenched, it's like a delicate spray.

[27:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah. Is this in 4D or evil death?

[27:21] Emily Clark: This is the other thing. Yeah, it's in the it's kind of in the round. So, no, it doesn't spray on anyone other than them. It's very, it's very strategic. And from where I was seated, I could only I kind of just figured out it was a thing on the floor. It looked really cool. Um, but yeah, it's uh again, it's like it weight, I don't know, taking this show that was never really that dark and kind of pulling the darker elements out of it, which I think is cool.

[27:47] Andrew DeWolf: That's fucking so cool sounding.

[27:50] Emily Clark: It's crazy. About as far as they can go.

[27:53] Andrew DeWolf: About as fur as they can go. Oh man. So I guess now I we've talked about the revival, we've talked about the original a little bit. Um, I just want to know what your general like thoughts and other things you want to say about the content in general, like ignoring like specific production.

[28:16] Emily Clark: Oh, just like what do I like about Oklahoma?

[28:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[28:19] Emily Clark: Or dislike. Or just like, okay, uh, let's see. Um you know, it's so fun. Uh I I this is one of the scripts I read with my musical theater history students. And um it's always fun to read it with kids because we always get to the poor Judd is dead scene, and they always end it going, wow, Curly's kind of a dick, huh? Like, why are they why is he taunting this guy? And I'm like, That's what I thought too. Like he just goes in and he's like, You should kill yourself. I know it. Bet you won't do it. I know. And then in the revival, it's it's makes it even sadder because Jed is so sad. But in the original productions, you're like, oh, Jud's a creep, whatever. But I always thought the lyrics in Poor Jud is Dead are so funny.

I think no one really like thinks about how funny they are. Like, it's like it's a shame that he won't keep, but it's somewhere and we're running out of ice. I don't know. I think that's a really funny line. We want to cry over his corpse longer. Come on. Um I uh let's see. I I mean, I I one of my dream roles is Ado Annie, I'm not gonna lie. I can't believe I haven't played her yet, but I really love all of her stuff with Will. Um it it's funny when I watched the Hugh Jackman version, I kind of got really into the relationship with Lori and Curly. Because like in the movie in the original, they're just like cutesy cute, but in that 99 revival, that was the first time you kind of see the real playful nature between them, and they're very comfortable with each other, and their version of people will say we're in love is a lot more like uh it's it's a lot more sarcastic. They're all made, you know, all the lines are them kind of digging at each other, which added a whole new element to it, which I had never seen before.

[30:05] Emily Clark: Um I mean, you know, I it's so funny. I I I already said it, but I really didn't realize like how I don't know. You Rogers and Hammerstein are so in our DNA as Americans in a lot of ways. Like, even if you don't know the musical Oklahoma, you probably know the song Oklahoma, or at least like the first line of it or something. Um, and so when I saw the revival where, excuse me, where I was at um Circle in the Square, so everything's in the round, and just seeing the audience all around singing along every word and stomping and doing all the yippee eyes in the background. I was kind of like, see, this is kind of cool. Like, this is some kind of thing that unifies us, and it's because this show has been around so long. Um, I I I also do really like that the revival kind of is just kind of I don't know, like it's kind of going like, this ain't your grandpa's Oklahoma, man. I think that's I think that's literally its catchphrase.

[31:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I know, and it's like pissing off the old folks.

[31:08] Emily Clark: I'm kind of like, yeah, because musical theater can do that, because the musical theater goes through phases like that. Um, and so it it was only a matter of time before this show got its inevitable like revamp, reboot. And um there's elements about it that you can tweak as opposed to like carousel, which don't get me wrong, I just did a video where I listed off the musicals that have made me cry, and carousel always makes me cry. It's probably my favorite Rogers and Hammerstein score. But like, what's the use of wondering as a garbage song? And like the message at the end is garbage, even though there's parts of it that are so good. So, you know, I It's like getting hit by an angel. And it's like, I guess he gets to go to heaven now because he I don't know.

Of course he does. He beats his talk to her and yeah, yeah. Oh, Billy, Billy Bigelow. Uh yeah. So uh yeah, I I I like Oklahoma. But like when people when people I I like to tell people that it's important. And if their opinion isn't changed, then that's totally fine. But I do like to go, you know that it's a really important musical and musical theater history. Um, so I think appreciating is good. Like, you don't have to appreciate the music man, but you know what? Of course you have to appreciate the music man.

[32:20] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, I effing love the music man.

[32:25] Emily Clark: Do not get me wrong. I love the music man, but that's another one. That's one with Oklahoma. I always hear people going, oh, I hate that one. And I'm like, I don't know. I kind of like them both, but I get it. They're too cheesy for me.

[32:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's okay.

[32:40] Emily Clark: I mean, that's true. That is Hugh Jackman's about to know the soul, too.

[32:45] Andrew DeWolf: See, but Hugh Jackman has a soul, so it's okay.

[32:48] Emily Clark: Hugh Jackman's gonna ruin that almost as bad as Matthew Broderick did.

[32:51] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, oh no.

[32:54] Emily Clark: No one can ruin it that bad.

[32:56] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[32:58] Emily Clark: Matthew Broderick ruined it pretty badly.

[33:00] Andrew DeWolf: 76.

[33:01] Emily Clark: Matthew Broderick definitely doesn't have a soul. Let's just be clear here.

[33:06] Andrew DeWolf: And we keep putting him in music.

[33:11] Emily Clark: Oh Matt. Stop doing musicals.

[33:15] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, please.

[33:16] Emily Clark: You're they're the producers, that's all we needed from you. That's all we needed. And you were so wonderful.

[33:21] Andrew DeWolf: I know, right? Give us your equity card. You're not allowed to be back on stage.

[33:25] Emily Clark: God, he was in that horrible A Christmas story live, too.

[33:29] Andrew DeWolf: Fuck, I forgot about that.

[33:30] Emily Clark: Which is already like, oh, it's it's already a really horrible musical, and he was the narrator character. So he'd pop out and be like, Red Reiner Beam Eagle.

[33:39] Andrew DeWolf: Matthew Broderick.

[33:42] Emily Clark: I mean, uh, I don't know, uh Christmas, meh, whatever.

[33:46] Andrew DeWolf: He he forgot his lines a couple times too.

[33:49] Emily Clark: He really Yes.

[33:51] Andrew DeWolf: He was not even trying.

[33:53] Emily Clark: No, no. He was he was so basic.

[33:57] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, fucking Matthew Broderick.

[34:01] Emily Clark: Alright, Andrew, do you have anything that you want to say about Oklahoma before we move on to the next topic?

[34:06] Andrew DeWolf: I like Al He Allie Hakeem, I think is his.

[34:33] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[34:34] Andrew DeWolf: Will's like nervous. Like, that's a lot of money too. I'm like, where did he even get all that money?

[34:40] Emily Clark: He's a peddler.

[34:41] Andrew DeWolf: Scammed it out of people.

[34:42] Emily Clark: That's true. That's true. He sells that elixir of Egypt stuff.

[34:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but that's like four dollars. Like he's that's a hundred dollars he just dished out.

[34:51] Emily Clark: I know, right? And they're selling baskets for like two bits. It's crazy. Like, oh my god.

[34:58] Andrew DeWolf: I know. I'll trade you my gun for that basket.

[35:01] Emily Clark: Oh, I know. I love the part. Oh, in the revival, their hampers are all like blue igloo cool coolers, and the whole show, everyone's cracking Bud Lights. It's amazing.

[35:11] Andrew DeWolf: Man, finally, a show I can get drawn at.

[35:13] Emily Clark: Bud Light is the most American drink that there is. And those little igloo coolers, it's great. Like, I the whole time I'm sitting there, I was just like, damn it, I really want one of those. Those look really good.

[35:22] Andrew DeWolf: Is the revival like modern day? Like that was one thing I was a little confused of.

[35:26] Emily Clark: Yeah, it is. It's very much like now. Everyone's just like in They're just like in jeans and jeans and flannels. Um Allie Stroker as 80 Annie. She's got like, she's got like these little like butterfly clips in her hair and like little cutoffs and cowboy boots. And then Allie Hackham, he's just like kind of in like a really shlubby suit. Like a real shrubby suit with like a loose tie. And everyone else is just like, yeah, oh yeah. And everyone else is just kind of like basic cowboy. Like, like actually working on the farm. Um are you team Ali Hakeem or Team Ally Hackham?

[36:05] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's what they say.

[36:07] Emily Clark: Well, it would be Ali Hakeem, but everyone in the show, because they're all from Oklahoma, they are all like Allie Hackham.

[36:07] Andrew DeWolf: Allie Hackham.

[36:16] Emily Clark: I know. It should be like Ali Hakeem, but you know.

[36:20] Andrew DeWolf: They say everything wrong in Oklahoma.

[36:22] Emily Clark: No, no. I don't care. Give me your money.

[36:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They say everything wrong and they spell everything how they say it.

[36:34] Emily Clark: Hi guys. Today's show is brought to you by Audible. Audible is offering our oysters a free audio book with a 30-day free trial membership. Just go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs. Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy. Go to Audible Trial.com/slash musicals with cheese to get started today.

[36:53] Andrew DeWolf: Um, this week I am recommending The Secret Life of the American Musical, How Broadway Shows Are Built by Jack Virtel.

[37:00] Emily Clark: Oh, there it is.

[37:02] Andrew DeWolf: By David Pitu. It is a great book that taught me a lot about musical theater structure and as well the things that Oklahoma set up as precedent, and they would later go on to be the musical theater, like a formula more or less.

[37:15] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: So to download your free audiobook today, go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese. Again, that's Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese for your free audiobook.

[37:27] Emily Clark: Oh, what a beautiful morning.

[37:32] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, what a beautiful day.

[37:37] Emily Clark: I got a beautiful feeling.

[37:43] Andrew DeWolf: Everyone's going my way.

[37:50] Emily Clark: Oh what a beautiful.

[38:04] Andrew DeWolf: Let's talk about the song.

[38:06] Emily Clark: Um, that opening number is so strange, especially in the time period that this musical came out.

[38:12] Jess McInally: It was revolutionary.

[38:14] Emily Clark: So that that that was a big big thing at the time.

[38:18] Jess McInally: Um, because every musical before that, every opening number is a big flashy, crazy thing, right?

[38:26] Emily Clark: It's a big spectacle to welcome you to the world of this.

[38:30] Jess McInally: And it they were making a conscious choice. They were like, we're gonna start the show with a lone cowboy and a woman churning butter, and that's it.

[38:38] Emily Clark: And just the simplicity of it all.

[38:40] Jess McInally: So um, oh, what a beautiful morning was a breaking the mold, uh in that sense as well.

[38:48] Emily Clark: And also it's just it's so catchy.

[38:51] Jess McInally: Like it sets up the rules of the lyric writing as well.

[38:54] Emily Clark: Like it's not a meadow, it's a meadow.

[38:57] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[38:58] Emily Clark: All that. I feel like musically it also sets up the setting very well.

[39:01] Jess McInally: It it has a very um like open sound to give that like uh on a farm in Oklahoma type feel.

[39:09] Emily Clark: Yeah, and um it's it's really I think a testament to Hammerstein's lyric writing.

[39:14] Jess McInally: He he always just toes the line of being cheesy or uh but he always manages to be earnest, and I think the imagery in the song is really interesting um and really beautiful in a lot of ways, while being still like simple, corn is as high as an elephant's eye.

[39:30] Emily Clark: I love that.

[39:32] Jess McInally: Um, but it's not an elephant's eye, it's a elephant's eye.

[39:36] Emily Clark: Like little things like that are what makes the lyrics feel so intentional.

[39:40] Jess McInally: Like that's kind of it's written for this character. This isn't interchangeable between like him and Judd and Allie Hackham and all that other stuff.

[39:49] Emily Clark: Exactly.

[39:50] Jess McInally: It comes back a lot throughout the show, and it's it's such a good opening.

[39:55] Emily Clark: Like I don't know how to describe it aside from just really good.

[39:59] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's a beautiful melody.

[40:01] Emily Clark: That's a good way to describe it.

[40:02] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's just a it's a good opening number and it it sets up the world perfectly.

[40:08] Emily Clark: And um, you know, audiences at the time they didn't know what to expect.

[40:11] Jess McInally: They were like, what is this?

[40:12] Emily Clark: When is this cowboy? Where are the dancing girls? Where's the gales? Where's the ladies? Where's the fancy?

[40:18] Jess McInally: If you were to open it, if you were to open it with a big opening number, how should they have done that?

[40:24] Emily Clark: Everything's up to date in Kansas City!

[40:28] Jess McInally: Just a bunch of cowboys like riding in, doing that like Agnes DeMille like straddle jump thing she does in the ballet or something.

[40:37] Emily Clark: I don't know.

[40:39] Jess McInally: Maybe, maybe like something you'd see a few decades later in like Best Little Whorehouse in Texas or something.

[40:44] Emily Clark: Chicks and ducks and spatter scurry.

[40:47] Jess McInally: Where I take you out in the surrey.

[40:50] Emily Clark: Where I take you out in the surrey with the fringe on top.

[40:56] Jess McInally: Watch that fringe and see how it flutters.

[40:59] Emily Clark: When I drive them high stepping strutters, no sick hoax will peek through the shutters and their eyes.

[41:07] Jess McInally: So the song that follows that I find very interesting.

[41:10] Emily Clark: And that's the story with the fringe on top.

[41:13] Jess McInally: Which serves simultaneously as an I want song for Lori and Curly.

[41:18] Emily Clark: While also setting up the romance.

[41:20] Jess McInally: I find that super interesting.

[41:21] Emily Clark: And the fact that it's not even like the ideal I want song that we know of today.

[41:27] Jess McInally: Yeah, it sets up, it's more it's it's definitely about setting up their dynamic as as characters, um, how they relate to each other.

[41:35] Emily Clark: Um he he has a Surrey, he rented it, and he's just fucking with Lori.

[41:35] Jess McInally: He's just fucking with her during the song.

[41:41] Emily Clark: And the thing is, because they have this is their whole thing. They they banter, they flirt, they will, they won't, they they it's like every 90s rom-com, but in a 1940s musical.

[41:54] Jess McInally: Um, and they have fun banter.

[41:56] Emily Clark: They do have like some little quips and jabs they give at each other, and it is fun to it is fun when the actors are good.

[42:02] Jess McInally: That's another thing, like I said, that I think the Hugh Jackman version does really well.

[42:05] Emily Clark: And I agree, but with this song, like when you get the right performers, you understand what both of them want out of this relationship.

[42:12] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[42:12] Emily Clark: Like without them saying a word like I want this.

[42:16] Jess McInally: Like you understand exactly what they're both aiming for and how she feels and what he's doing this for.

[42:22] Emily Clark: All that.

[42:23] Jess McInally: Yeah, yeah.

[42:24] Emily Clark: It's all it it's all about their motivations.

[42:27] Jess McInally: Um you get a real sense of who all three, including Aunt Eller, how all of them are and what their story is gonna be through that first song they do together.

[42:35] Emily Clark: And you might even figure out what a Surrey is.

[42:41] Jess McInally: I always like to joke that that Greece and Oklahoma end the same way with the two main characters like riding off in the vehicle of their dreams.

[42:49] Emily Clark: You know what a Surrey is to me?

[42:50] Jess McInally: Surrey is how my dad says Siri, and he wonders why they don't understand him when he says, Hey Surrey.

[42:50] Emily Clark: Oh, I like that.

[43:00] Jess McInally: Hey, sorry.

[43:00] Emily Clark: Exactly.

[43:00] Emily Clark: He's not a folksy man, he just doesn't know what the sex decided Siri.

[43:07] Jess McInally: I like that.

[43:08] Emily Clark: He's a good man.

[43:10] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[43:10] Jess McInally: He's listening right now, so he's probably like shitting his pants.

[43:12] Emily Clark: Like, what?

[43:13] Jess McInally: Don't mention.

[43:12] Emily Clark: Why are you putting my shit out?

[43:13] Jess McInally: Don't talk about me.

[43:15] Emily Clark: It's Siri?

[43:16] Jess McInally: Why didn't nobody tell me?

[43:24] Emily Clark: I always say, come on, let's go.

[43:28] Emily Clark: I'm just a girl who can't say no.

[43:28] Jess McInally: Just when I are to say mix.

[43:31] Jess McInally: I'm in a terrible fix.

[43:31] Emily Clark: Um, let's talk about I can't say no.

[43:33] Jess McInally: Oh.

[43:34] Emily Clark: I love this song.

[43:36] Jess McInally: Oh my gosh, it's such a fun song.

[43:37] Emily Clark: The revival version of this song is really, really good.

[43:40] Jess McInally: Oh my god, it's so good.

[43:42] Emily Clark: She sings it like exactly how you want it to be with her rip roaring and yippin' and the ending whale and where they do the ending is.

[43:51] Jess McInally: Oh, yeah.

[43:52] Emily Clark: All the slides and everything, and all our growl.

[43:54] Jess McInally: Oh, it's all good.

[43:55] Emily Clark: I I love it.

[43:56] Jess McInally: Oh, it's so good.

[43:57] Emily Clark: And um, I will say I I I really want to give the revival this.

[44:02] Jess McInally: Like, you know, Ali Strokers in a wheelchair, and never once is her wheelchair a thing in the show.

[44:09] Emily Clark: It's never a plot element, it's never like look at Ado Annie in a wheelchair.

[44:14] Jess McInally: It's just that the actress is in a wheelchair.

[44:17] Emily Clark: So it's completely secondary, third, fourth dairy to her performance.

[44:22] Jess McInally: Um and there's cute moments where like Will will like hop in the wheelchair with her and she'll like ride off, you know.

[44:27] Emily Clark: It's like really cute things like that that I really dig.

[44:29] Jess McInally: She's so good in that part.

[44:30] Emily Clark: But how does she sit in someone else's lap?

[44:34] Jess McInally: Uh there's a couple moments where I think Will like picks her up, I think, and like sits him in her lap, actually.

[44:40] Emily Clark: Um there are a couple moments like that.

[44:42] Jess McInally: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[44:44] Emily Clark: But it's great.

[44:45] Jess McInally: And there's ramps all over.

[44:47] Emily Clark: Fantastic.

[44:48] Jess McInally: Sure are.

[44:50] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[44:52] Jess McInally: All of Oklahoma is handicap accessible.

[44:55] Emily Clark: Well, I still mention that it looks the set looks like a god, it looks like the inside of like um like a dance hall or like uh skate park.

[45:06] Jess McInally: No, like uh kind of like what your grandpa's like Eagles Club would look like, maybe.

[45:12] Emily Clark: Um it looks like just a big, like a lot of people when I show them the pictures, they're like, Oh, it looks like a gym.

[45:19] Jess McInally: And um but up close, the wood isn't like polished, it just looks like plywood put up.

[45:25] Emily Clark: So and there's like gun racks on the walls, and that's it.

[45:29] Jess McInally: And the lights are up like almost the whole show.

[45:31] Emily Clark: It's crazy.

[45:32] Jess McInally: Um, so it uh it so it kind of makes sense that there would be like ramps, and she kind of there's like a big like kind of vom in the center near the where the band is, and she kind of just like rolls in and out of that, and they put a big ramp around, and it's great.

[45:45] Emily Clark: It's really great.

[45:46] Jess McInally: And anyway, getting back to I can't say no, she's just like, oh yeah, and she like sings the crap out of that song.

[45:53] Emily Clark: And that song has slowly gotten better and better with every new version.

[45:57] Jess McInally: Like the original version is very bad, like the original, original Broadway version.

[46:01] Emily Clark: She's like wringing her hands the entire time, like, say no.

[46:04] Jess McInally: Yes.

[46:05] Emily Clark: And then as it gets down like the 99 revival version, she's just like her legs are spread.

[46:09] Jess McInally: She's like, Yes, I love that one.

[46:13] Emily Clark: I love that one.

[46:14] Jess McInally: And her hats like kind of askew, and she's just like sitting in the cornfield.

[46:18] Emily Clark: I love that one.

[46:19] Jess McInally: Yeah, every time people kind of because there's nothing I I heard some guy on Facebook who was like, that song is really sexist.

[46:27] Emily Clark: And I said, I don't know what is sexist about this song, other than like maybe the way you interpret it.

[46:32] Jess McInally: Because there are moments where she's like, every time I lose a wrestling match, I have a funny feeling that I won.

[46:37] Emily Clark: And I was like, she's not being pinned down against her will, you know.

[46:40] Jess McInally: Like she's she's there because she wants to be.

[46:43] Emily Clark: So I think uh it's easy to kind of on the surface misjudge it.

[46:47] Jess McInally: Like, I can't say no.

[46:49] Emily Clark: It's like, no, she's saying she has no self-control.

[46:51] Jess McInally: It's because she wants to bone everybody, and like, yay, let her do it.

[46:55] Emily Clark: Who cares?

[46:57] Jess McInally: People are looking at it as like a male fantasy thing.

[47:00] Emily Clark: Like, oh, a girl that can't say no, that's perfect.

[47:04] Jess McInally: That's how it's meant to be.

[47:05] Emily Clark: Uh I don't think that's how it's meant to be interpreted.

[47:08] Jess McInally: Well, and I think like it's no no, I I think it's like really common for well, I mean, like, you know, guys are allowed to have sex with whoever they want, and girls are either a slut or are prude.

[47:18] Emily Clark: And I kind of like yeah, in later versions, it's kind of like she's in charge of her sexuality.

[47:23] Jess McInally: And I think that kind of pisses guys off more.

[47:28] Emily Clark: Well, when I first heard this, I liked it.

[47:29] Jess McInally: It's fun.

[47:31] Emily Clark: I was worried about it.

[47:33] Jess McInally: I can't say no because um the known means no thing that goes on in a lot of sexual assault things, like that that phrasing specifically kind of irked me and raised the trigger in the back of my head.

[47:47] Emily Clark: Um, of course, I've listened to a song a thousand times since that.

[47:50] Jess McInally: But I think that's my first like, oh, oh what?

[47:53] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah.

[47:55] Jess McInally: I mean, context matters, obviously, and like, yeah, listening to it.

[47:58] Emily Clark: If you just like heard the title or a couple lines and and seen, like, like you said, like the old hang hand-wringing, you know, 43 version, you might be a little like, oh, wait a second.

[48:08] Jess McInally: But the latest, uh, obviously the latest revival version is getting so much traction, and that version is being heard all over the place.

[48:14] Emily Clark: And I think people are realizing that it can be a really fun song for women to sing.

[48:20] Jess McInally: I think probably the reason they did it that way in the 40s was just that they couldn't do it the other way.

[48:25] Emily Clark: Oh, for sure.

[48:26] Jess McInally: Oh, yeah.

[48:27] Emily Clark: Yeah, I agree with that.

[48:28] Jess McInally: I don't think they'd allow them to do that on stage.

[48:31] Emily Clark: No, no, no.

[48:33] Jess McInally: I mean, you know, women, you know, it had to be a certain way, and if the women were sexual, they would be uh uh kind of quote unquote punished for it in the story, one way or another.

[48:43] Emily Clark: The loose women and the sun flicks my headsola Parkelas!

[48:52] Jess McInally: I'm awake.

[49:01] Emily Clark: I ain't gonna dream out her arms no more.

[49:05] Jess McInally: I ain't gonna leave her alone.

[49:12] Emily Clark: Kid myself pride.

[49:28] Jess McInally: Um, let's talk about Lonely Room.

[49:30] Emily Clark: This is one of the best villain songs ever.

[49:32] Jess McInally: It's a good one.

[49:33] Emily Clark: The floor creepy.

[49:35] Jess McInally: He just wants real things, guys.

[49:38] Emily Clark: He just doesn't want those little picture cards with those ladies on them.

[49:43] Jess McInally: He wants a real girlfriend.

[49:44] Emily Clark: Yeah, it's it's a good one.

[49:46] Jess McInally: It's a shame they cut it out of the movie.

[49:48] Emily Clark: Um the the 99 revival that Shuler Hensley does is awesome.

[49:54] Jess McInally: Um it's a good song.

[49:56] Emily Clark: It really gives you some insight into the character, and it makes him more than just like a bad guy.

[50:01] Jess McInally: I feel like he starts out a lot more relatable, but then as the show goes on, he just does more and more irredeemable things.

[50:08] Emily Clark: Yeah, for sure.

[50:10] Jess McInally: I know.

[50:10] Emily Clark: He's like gonna kill Curly with that little little wonder toy.

[50:14] Jess McInally: And that is basically, I think that's a really good way to end act one, and I really I like the idea that act one kind of ends on that song in the new version.

[50:24] Emily Clark: Like that's not because of the side.

[50:25] Jess McInally: Yeah, it ends with a real big ending.

[50:29] Emily Clark: Well, it does, she does sing, they do sing out of my dreams, but they just don't go into the ballet.

[50:34] Jess McInally: So she does, she basically just does uh into a dream with you, sings the last line of it, or she sings it with the women, and then um, and it just ends.

[50:44] Emily Clark: And then it's almost like the ballet, since it starts the second act, is so completely disconnected from that song, which is, you know, it is what it is.

[50:54] Emily Clark: I think the ballet is the most outdated thing in the entire musical, though. It doesn't feel right. It's so long and it's not something that you see in newer musicals ever.

[51:07] Jess McInally: No.

[51:07] Andrew DeWolf: So no.

[51:08] Emily Clark: No, you certainly don't know. It just feels like, oh, what is this?

[51:13] Jess McInally: Yeah, it was definitely a thing in musicals during that time period for a while. Um, Carousel has a, it does not a dream ballet, but Carousel has an extended dance sequence, dance storytelling sequence in the second act with the daughter. Um, there's some other shows like, oh, I mean, West Side Story obviously starts with a huge dance sequence, but dance is integrated in a kind of a different way in that show.

[51:38] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and I could probably think of some more.

[51:41] Emily Clark: But we don't really do that nowadays. We don't have an extended like dance, like a 30-minute dance sequence or 20-minute dance sequence. Uh, nowadays, dance is a lot more integrated.

[51:52] Jess McInally: So I would agree with that for sure.

[51:55] Emily Clark: Yeah, and I think like they even use like a dance ballet later in their own like work, like in I hate to say it, but Carousel has an incredible dance ballet used very effectively with the story.

[52:07] Jess McInally: Yeah, Carousel has one.

[52:10] Emily Clark: Um, don't think, oh, well, no, the King and I doesn't really have one, and I don't think, unless you count the little small house of Uncle Thomas as one.

[52:22] Jess McInally: Um, then South Pacific doesn't really have one either.

[52:27] Emily Clark: So yeah, I mean, I guess those first two, and then a lot of other composer, uh, sorry, uh, musical theater teams and choreographers would kind of emulate that. Agnes de Mille was kind of the start of the kind of Broadway choreographer being so integral to the team.

[52:45] Jess McInally: Um, like Jerome Robbins would come quickly after that, and then of course Bob Fosse down the line a little bit farther.

[52:53] Emily Clark: But for the time though, like, yeah, it was a crazy thing to have the dance connected to the story in such a way. Um, and then there are moments in the show where obviously where it's just like, hey, dancing.

[53:06] Jess McInally: But every time there is kind of a reason for it.

[53:08] Emily Clark: Like Kansas City will's like, hey, let me show you the dance steps that I learned in Kansas City, and then it goes into a huge dance sequence, or you know, uh, I love the lasso stuff, maybe that's great.

[53:20] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, that part's great.

[53:21] Emily Clark: Um, and like Farmer and the Cow Man, obviously, they're at a barn dance, so it makes sense they'd all be dancing.

[53:26] Jess McInally: So there's a few, uh, Many a New Day, that one kind of goes on forever.

[53:31] Emily Clark: Um, but in the revival, yeah.

[53:34] Jess McInally: But in the, I also love Many New Day, I love that song.

[53:37] Emily Clark: Um, in the revival, there's only four women in the cast. They whittle all the women down to four actresses.

[53:44] Jess McInally: Um, and basically the woman who plays Gertie, you know, the ah silly laugh girl.

[53:49] Emily Clark: Um, she basically plays like all the other women in the ensemble. And then there's Aunt Eller, um, and Lori and Ado Annie.

[53:56] Jess McInally: So I really loved that because when the just the four women are singing, you can really hear the beautiful harmonies in songs like Many a New Day and, um, Out of My Dreams, which I liked.

[54:07] Emily Clark: Also in Many a New Day, they were like breaking, they were like breaking up corn and throwing it into a pot, like they were getting ready for dinner.

[54:14] Jess McInally: And so it was really cool because they were acting, they were acting real pissed off and breaking the corn.

[54:19] Emily Clark: So instead of them flouncing around getting dressed like in the original, they're kind of aggressively breaking corn and singing these really cool harmonies.

[54:26] Andrew DeWolf: So I thought that was neat.

[54:27] Emily Clark: They're breaking penises.

[54:28] Jess McInally: All right, let's talk about Oklahoma, the um, the state song of Oklahoma.

[54:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, Oklahoma where the wind rolls sweep them down the way.

[54:42] Emily Clark: Oklahoma where the raven wheat can sure smell sweet when the wind comes right behind the rain.

[54:51] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my God, every night we see the Lowlands Hugo making lazy circles in the woo-hoo.

[55:05] Emily Clark: It’s the title song. I think everyone knows this one, right?

[55:08] Andrew DeWolf: It's Rip Roarin' Crowd Pleaser.

[55:10] Emily Clark: It's a perfect song right before murder.

[55:12] Jess McInally: Well, um, it's so funny, right? Um, when Oklahoma came out, it was right, so it was 1943, and it was around the time, I'm not good with dates like this, but it was around when World War II was happening.

[55:26] Emily Clark: Um, and so soldiers who were coming back, um, or who were in New York, let's say, on leave, or um, or people who had soldiers who were away, they were able to see this musical that was all about a town or a community that could have looked like theirs.

[55:42] Jess McInally: Um, and so it that was one of the big reasons why it was such a hit at the time, was it kind of reminded like the boys of their home um while they were at war.

[55:42] Emily Clark: Um, and so songs like Oklahoma really took off like that, um, because they were just so representative of like that American saying.

[55:59] Jess McInally: And uh, yeah.

[56:00] Emily Clark: So and that song has been kind of a standard ever since, obviously.

[56:04] Andrew DeWolf: What do you think of the song?

[56:07] Jess McInally: What do I think of Oklahoma?

[56:08] Andrew DeWolf: The song.

[56:09] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[56:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I mean, it's a fun song.

[56:13] Andrew DeWolf: It doesn't have like, you know, that much relevance, I don't think.

[56:18] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's just kind of a fun thing to sing.

[56:21] Emily Clark: It's true.

[56:21] Andrew DeWolf: It's really just kind of like sing along.

[56:24] Emily Clark: I think it's fun when you can tell someone has done Oklahoma because they always sing the backup parts in Oklahoma.

[56:31] Andrew DeWolf: They do the yippee eyes and the Oklahoma, Oklahoma.

[56:37] Emily Clark: That's always a hoot.

[56:44] Jess McInally: Okay, so uh we're gonna move to a different segment that I think is still relatively new for us, but it's trivia time, guys!

[56:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah Jess, you're the current reigning champion, is that correct?

[56:56] Jess McInally: Um, yeah, I guess I keep coming back to this show.

[56:58] Andrew DeWolf: Is that correct? You won the last one?

[57:00] Jess McInally: I did not. Remember Angelina War.

[57:01] Andrew DeWolf: Did you not win the last one?

[57:03] Jess McInally: Oh shoot, you lost the Oh my goodness.

[57:07] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I think you're also gonna lose this one.

[57:10] Jess McInally: Yeah, I think I'm gonna lose it too.

[57:12] Andrew DeWolf: I've got a feeling.

[57:13] Andrew DeWolf: I think the first question's gonna go to our guest.

[57:15] Emily Clark: I am ready.

[57:16] Andrew DeWolf: Uh here is Jess's question for you.

[57:19] Jess McInally: Uh, in what state did Oklahoma exclamation point originally open?

[57:24] Emily Clark: New York State?

[57:25] Jess McInally: Did it have an out-of-town trail?

[57:27] Emily Clark: Yes, it did.

[57:28] Jess McInally: Uh then Connecticut.

[57:31] Andrew DeWolf: So which answer are we going with, Jess?

[57:33] Jess McInally: She got it.

[57:34] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[57:34] Jess McInally: Uh Connecticut was correct.

[57:38] Andrew DeWolf: So with Connecticut being correct, that means you actually get the point here.

[57:42] Jess McInally: Are you ready for your question?

[57:44] Emily Clark: I am, I think.

[57:45] Jess McInally: What were the names of the actors/actress who played Laurie and Curly in the nineteen fifties film version of Oklahoma?

[57:55] Emily Clark: Uh, uh, it was Shirley Jones and uh, John Wright.

[58:02] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that's so close.

[58:06] Jess McInally: Oh, oh no.

[58:07] Andrew DeWolf: It's not John Raid, but that's an interesting connection.

[58:11] Jess McInally: Gordon McRae.

[58:12] Emily Clark: Oh shit.

[58:13] Jess McInally: Yes, don't.

[58:14] Andrew DeWolf: You confused him with John Raid.

[58:16] Emily Clark: Yes.

[58:16] Jess McInally: Yes.

[58:17] Andrew DeWolf: John Wright played Billy Brady.

[58:19] Jess McInally: What was the correct answer here?

[58:20] Andrew DeWolf: Does he get half a point?

[58:21] Jess McInally: I'm gonna say no.

[58:22] Andrew DeWolf: That's not half a point.

[58:23] Jess McInally: He gets no points for that.

[58:25] Andrew DeWolf: I get no answer for the title question.

[58:28] Jess McInally: That's your call.

[58:29] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[58:30] Jess McInally: That is my call, and I'm making it.

[58:32] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[58:33] Jess McInally: So we're gonna go to the one next question.

[58:37] Andrew DeWolf: We do two questions.

[58:38] Jess McInally: So if you get this, you basically win because Jess won't be able to come back.

[58:45] Emily Clark: Alright.

[58:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um, uh, this is a true or false question.

[58:49] Jess McInally: Uh, the movie version of Oklahoma was filmed in Oklahoma.

[58:55] Emily Clark: False?

[58:56] Emily Clark: I feel like it has to be false, because then why would we ask?

[58:59] Jess McInally: It is false.

[59:00] Emily Clark: You got it.

[59:01] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, can you guess where it was filmed?

[59:05] Emily Clark: Oh.

[59:07] Emily Clark: Texas?

[59:07] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, that's not correct.

[59:09] Emily Clark: That wasn't actually the question, though.

[59:10] Andrew DeWolf: So you got the question right.

[59:11] Emily Clark: Uh, it was Arizona.

[59:13] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, so that makes sense.

[59:14] Emily Clark: Even closer to Hollywood.

[59:16] Andrew DeWolf: I lose.

[59:23] Jess McInally: You know what else is very important, Andrew?

[59:25] Andrew DeWolf: What's that?

[59:26] Jess McInally: That today's show is brought to you by Audible.

[59:28] Andrew DeWolf: Audible is off right now.

[59:29] Jess McInally: This is a free audio book with 30 day free trial membership.

[59:33] Jess McInally: Just go to AudibleTrial.com slash musicals with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs.

[59:39] Andrew DeWolf: Download a title free and start listening.

[59:41] Jess McInally: Tis that easy.

[59:42] Andrew DeWolf: Go to AudibleTrials.com slash musicals with cheese.

[59:46] Jess McInally: He just turns out that's the case.

[59:48] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like you could put Audible into the, you could put it into the Pick a Little Talk a Little song.

[59:53] Jess McInally: Audible Audible Audible Audible Audible.

[59:56] Andrew DeWolf: From the music band.

[59:57] Jess McInally: That's a good idea.

[59:58] Andrew DeWolf: See, she has the good ideas, Jess.

[1:00:00] Jess McInally: Why don't you think of this?

[1:00:01] Andrew DeWolf: You know what?

[1:00:02] Andrew DeWolf: She won the trivia game, so why don't you just take her and put her on the show?

[1:00:06] Jess McInally: All right.

[1:00:07] Andrew DeWolf: You're the new co-host.

[1:00:08] Jess McInally: Jess is out of here.

[1:00:10] Emily Clark: Yes!

[1:00:10] Andrew DeWolf: Bye!

[1:00:11] Jess McInally: All right, everyone.

[1:00:12] Jess McInally: We're gonna talk about Sondheim now.

[1:00:14] Andrew DeWolf: We're gonna talk about Sondheim.

[1:00:16] Jess McInally: Excellent.

[1:00:17] Emily Clark: Oh god.

[1:00:20] Andrew DeWolf: All day, every day.

[1:00:21] Emily Clark: Andrew, why don't you tell us a little bit about your show and promote all your stuff?

[1:00:26] Emily Clark: Okay, sure.

[1:00:26] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[1:00:27] Emily Clark: So I have a show on YouTube called Stealing Focus, where I review movie and TV musicals with the help of my roommates, one of which is a little furry green puppet named Gerald.

[1:00:38] Emily Clark: And uh, we love to talk about uh movie musicals, but we're also spinning off into some other stuff.

[1:00:44] Emily Clark: We do real thoughts vlogs.

[1:00:46] Emily Clark: Um, we're also gonna be starting a series probably just this month called Give My Regards to dot dot dot.

[1:00:52] Emily Clark: And uh, we do musical theater history lessons in each episode, and we will be talking some Rogers and Hammerstein.

[1:00:58] Emily Clark: And uh, the reason why I had the Pulled Surprise thing on my head is we're doing an episode of all the musicals that have won the Pulled Surprise because there's only been nine.

[1:01:05] Emily Clark: So, uh, you know, I could talk about this stuff all day, every day.

[1:01:09] Emily Clark: So I'm on YouTube and um Twitter at Emily Clark, and uh, yeah, that's where I live.

[1:01:20] Jess McInally: That's great.

[1:01:21] Jess McInally: Um, I love your stuff.

[1:01:23] Jess McInally: I recommend it quite a bit.

[1:01:25] Jess McInally: Um, I think that if everyone who enjoys this show would definitely enjoy the stuff that you do.

[1:01:30] Jess McInally: It's really top notch.

[1:01:32] Andrew DeWolf: No who else I want to thank?

[1:01:33] Andrew DeWolf: I want to thank the listener for listening and being awesome.

[1:01:37] Jess McInally: And if you would please, that's true though, rate us on Spotify, um, iTunes, Stitcher.

[1:01:43] Andrew DeWolf: We're all there at Musicals with Cheese.

[1:01:44] Jess McInally: Leave us reviews.

[1:01:45] Andrew DeWolf: We need more reviews.

[1:01:46] Jess McInally: We're trying to hit 200 by the end of the year, so come on, folks.

[1:01:49] Andrew DeWolf: I thought it was 100.

[1:01:50] Jess McInally: Now it's two.

[1:01:52] Andrew DeWolf: I'm boosting it up with everything.

[1:01:53] Jess McInally: Yeah, uh, gotta raise your standards, or else we need two hundred reviews, or Jess will die.

[1:02:01] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, poor Jess is dead.

[1:02:06] Jess McInally: Hung himself up in the whole barnhouse.

[1:02:11] Andrew DeWolf: Even soon enough to be reviews, but that was a really nice looking, uh, nice looking rope behind you there.

[1:02:18] Jess McInally: You know what you could use that for?

[1:02:22] Andrew DeWolf: The easiest fall on the world.

[1:02:26] Jess McInally: We're also on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, our Patreon.

[1:02:30] Andrew DeWolf: We have so many wonderful patrons over at Patreon.

[1:02:32] Jess McInally: Meet we're at musicals with cheese on Instagram at musicals with cheese.

[1:02:36] Andrew DeWolf: Follow us on the YouTube page, musicals with cheese.

[1:02:38] Jess McInally: Um, our email is musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com.

[1:02:41] Andrew DeWolf: Go give us some attention there.

[1:02:43] Jess McInally: Also check out our brand new website, musicalswithcheese.com.

[1:02:46] Andrew DeWolf: It looks wonderful.

[1:02:47] Jess McInally: I put a lot of work into it, so why don't you go on there?

[1:02:50] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going now.

[1:02:52] Jess McInally: Yeah, go now.

[1:02:54] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my goodness, go.

[1:02:57] Jess McInally: Our title card is created by Jolene Casco.

[1:03:00] Andrew DeWolf: Follow her on Instagram at Jolene Casco.

[1:03:04] Jess McInally: Alrighty guys, I think that's all we gotta say about Oklahoma.

[1:03:08] Andrew DeWolf: Woo!

[1:03:09] Jess McInally: We're the wind comes weaving down the plane.

[1:03:13] Andrew DeWolf: It's hard when they's a delay.

[1:03:17] Jess McInally: It's true.

[1:03:18] Jess McInally: We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:03:22] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, what a beautiful barnet.