This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys, today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon.

[0:04] Jess McInall: Andrew, tell us a little bit about Patreon and who's donating to us.

[0:09] Andrew DeWolf: Uh well, Patreon is where you go to support people that you want to support. We have a bunch of extra commentaries and after parties for certain episodes and other stuff.

[0:18] Jess McInall: The full high school musical series will be on there by now, hopefully.

[0:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, high school musical.

[0:23] Jess McInall: We're doing that for some reason.

[0:24] Andrew DeWolf: He's making me suffer.

[0:26] Jess McInall: Alright, our current patrons are Stephanie L, Terry Needleman, Max Loonig, Benjamin Lear, Lily Ackles, Mackenzie Horner, John Donna, Terran the Duck, Melissa Goldman, Jess Lightning, Ewan Cassidy, Haley McDonald, Teskir, Colin McCloud, Fire of Satender, Nina Maneary.

[0:43] Andrew DeWolf: I can't even say words. Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, Haley Murray, Alice in Wonderland, B-Way Flicks, Michael Joan, uh Lathaniel Stacy Coombe, Joseph Evans Green, Luna Rocks 222, uh Irigale Du True uh White Er, okay.

[1:01] Jess McInall: That makes sense actually.

[1:02] Andrew DeWolf: That that actually makes sense.

[1:04] Jess McInall: Uh William Watt, Carrie Ahern, uh Christine Mal Midal, these are new ones.

[1:10] Andrew DeWolf: Uh Ben Packard, uh Mezzanine Theatre Diary, and Carson O'Connor.

[1:17] Jess McInall: I actually got through them all.

[1:18] Andrew DeWolf: Wow, look at that.

[1:18] Jess McInall: Yeah, we couldn't put them all on one page anymore. But these folks give us cool extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese.

[1:26] Andrew DeWolf: If you would like to join them and to and supporting us and get tons of fun perks such as patron only commentaries, arms a day a day early or even earlier. Come join us over at Patreon.

[1:35] Jess McInall: Alright, Andrew, you ready to get to it?

[1:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, let's get to it.

[1:39] Jess McInall: Alright. Then we'll have the intro play right there.

[1:42] Jess McInall: And now we're starting proper.

[1:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no.

[1:45] Jess McInall: Oh yeah, yeah, no turning back now.

[1:47] Andrew DeWolf: No turning back.

[1:48] Jess McInall: It's too late.

[1:49] Andrew DeWolf: I'm feeling so threatened right now.

[1:54] Jess McInall: Shit, we didn't do a good job.

[1:55] Andrew DeWolf: You don't get a second take?

[1:56] Jess McInall: Oh god. We didn't we didn't do a good job either. We just rushed through it and just went to the biggest thing.

[2:01] Andrew DeWolf: That was our worst one we've done in a while.

[2:02] Jess McInall: I just started showing my bloopers to everybody.

[2:05] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that'd be a patron stretch for me.

[2:07] Jess McInall: You want to hear me screw names up for three minutes?

[2:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[2:10] Jess McInall: You want to hear us screw names up? You just watch the normal episodes.

[2:13] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god. Well, one of our patron benefits is gonna be like the release of uh like a commentary of us doing my school play, so that that's something they've got to look forward to.

[2:23] Jess McInall: Nice yeah, we we just go all out and embarrass ourselves, apparently.

[2:27] Andrew DeWolf: That's that's what Jess likes.

[2:28] Jess McInall: I love it.

[2:33] Jess McInall: Hello, I'm Jess McInall.

[2:35] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[2:37] Jess McInall: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I tried to get Andrew to like musical theater. And Andrew, we have a super special guest today.

[2:43] Andrew DeWolf: I'm special.

[2:41] Jess McInall: A super special guest?

[2:45] Andrew DeWolf: Wow, that's great. Who is it?

[2:46] Jess McInall: Oh, oh who is that?

[2:50] Andrew DeWolf: What thrown out the window?

[2:53] Jess McInall: You got a famous guy?

[2:54] Andrew DeWolf: The fourth wall is gone!

[2:56] Jess McInall: Gone!

[2:56] Andrew DeWolf: This is Tim Allen?

[2:59] Jess McInall: Tim Allen's on the show today.

[3:01] Andrew DeWolf: He's gonna be showing us his cocaine collection.

[3:04] Jess McInall: Are you telling me Buzz Lightyear is here and you didn't prepare me for this?

[3:09] Jess McInall: No, today we have Ethan from Sideways.

[3:12] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no.

[3:13] Jess McInall: Who just reached 400,000 subscribers on YouTube.

[3:16] Andrew DeWolf: Congratulations on that.

[3:17] Ethan: Thank you.

[3:18] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you very much.

[3:19] Ethan: I don't know what happened, but it it's there.

[3:23] Jess McInall: And you you seem to be standing straight up, like you're not sideways at all, so I'm very confused.

[3:27] Ethan: I can't see him in general.

[3:29] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know how you even can tell which way he's page.

[3:31] Ethan: Oh, my my my parents say the same thing.

[3:36] Jess McInall: Alright, so Ethan, that's what I'm gonna call you. I'm not gonna call you sideways. Um what what are we talking about today?

[3:43] Ethan: Yes, we're talking about Kurt Vonnegut, God bless you, Mr. Rosewater.

[3:48] Ethan: Or Kurt's Kurt Vonnegut's God bless God bless you, Mr. Rosewater, because there's apostrophes and commas in the title.

[3:56] Jess McInall: That's how you get your show on Broadway. Punctuation.

[4:01] Ethan: I, Elliot Rosewater, legally acknowledge.

[4:07] Ethan: Every child in Rosewater County said to be mine as mine.

[4:12] Ethan: And I, Elliot Rosewater, send them all to college.

[4:18] Ethan: Cautioning them that taking's okay, but giving is divine.

[4:25] Ethan: I, Elliot Rosewater, legally adopt. Sons of the lonely, sons of the homely. Shy, let them be Rosewaters.

[4:38] Ethan: My sons and my daughters, let them be fruitful and multiply.

[4:46] Jess McInall: Alright, let me give us some background. So Kurt Vonnegut's God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, is a 1979 musical that marked the first collaboration of composer Alan Menken and writer Howard Ashman's. Based on Kurt Vonnegut's 1965 novel of the same name, the musical tells the story of Elliot Rosewater, a millionaire.

[5:04] Andrew DeWolf: A millionaire.

[5:05] Ethan: A millionaire!

[5:07] Andrew DeWolf: He makes millionaires.

[5:08] Ethan: Yes, the millionator.

[5:12] Jess McInall: The millionator who develops a social conscience and creates a foundation to improve the lives of the citizens of an impoverished Indiana town.

[5:21] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, we got through that. That part's in there. It's uh it's on record now.

[5:24] Jess McInall: Looks like I'm not the only one who's been reading the Wikipedia page.

[5:31] Jess McInall: Alright, so I'm just gonna go right at it. Um, I usually ask Andrew first, but I'm gonna do Ethan. Ethan, what was your first initial thoughts on God bless you, Mr. Rosewater?

[5:40] Ethan: Uh confusion, um, stunned silence. Uh I ended up turning with my girlfriend, and I was like, what the fuck? And she was like, dude, I don't know. Um so the the musical okay, so like the first thing, right? Like, whenever you sit down, you're in the theater, you look at the stage, the first thing you see is like the set and what they did and how they organized it. And personally, I absolutely hated it.

[6:03] Ethan: Like looking looking at just like the empty set with the musicians on it, no actors or anything. I was really unhappy with it because one, as a musician, I don't want to be on stage in that kind of gig with actors moving and swinging around and signs getting hung up and shit getting hung like thrown over my head or whatever. But there was one part about the set that I really disliked, and it's that the piano player doubles as kind of like a quasi-conductor, and his back is to the actors.

[6:30] Ethan: So, like from the get-go from the overture, I was like, ooh, how are they gonna deal with that? That was like initial first impression. Then it was in New York, and there was money, and I was like, okay, and then everybody had a book in their hand, and I was like, okay. And then there's one part where they're at the opera and he freaks out and he like rushes the stage in the opera, and I was like, that would definitely make it more exciting. Um stop singing!

[6:58] Ethan: Yeah, stop singing. And I'm like, is this a meta joke? Like, what are you trying to say? Is this some self-loathing Ashman? Like, what are we trying to get out here? Um, but yeah, I think I can tell what he was trying to do there now that I'm actually putting a thought to it, and this literally just hit me. Um, yeah, but like in the first 15 minutes alone, it's just like there's a lot happening, and I gotta process all of it.

[7:19] Ethan: I think that's a Hamlet reference now that I'm like just thinking about it, because he keeps talking to Ophelia and doesn't like Hamlet storm the stage at one point. Well, there's wasn't there is um uh in the in the end, like it spoilers, it ends with Ophelia becoming a fucking nun.

[7:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[7:35] Ethan: Right? And that's a Hamlet reference, get thee to a nunnery.

[7:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[7:38] Ethan: Wasn't Ophelia's like going crazy or something?

[7:40] Andrew DeWolf: Well, no, that a nunnery, I think is technically a prostitution hut, unless my my English teacher was wrong.

[7:47] Ethan: Which is very likely.

[7:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, that was way off. He's basically calling her a slut and all that and said, get thee to a nunnery, which I believe is uh house of sin, which is really dumb.

[7:59] Ethan: Yeah, now we're going to Googling.

[8:00] Andrew DeWolf: We're looking up fucking.

[8:01] Ethan: This doesn't make any sense, Jessie.

[8:03] Jess McInall: I know.

[8:03] Ethan: Are you sure he wasn't saying I thought it was ridiculous too? Google auto-completes that to nunneries near me.

[8:10] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-oh.

[8:11] Ethan: Building a group of buildings in which nuns live as a religious community, a con.

[8:15] Andrew DeWolf: Are you sure you that your teacher wasn't saying if you go to the English dictionaries, it is slang for a brothel.

[8:21] Ethan: Oh, okay, maybe not.

[8:22] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[8:25] Ethan: How do we know what Shakespeare is? Wait, Google Google's got this like this recommended thing. Is nunnery a real word?

[8:32] Andrew DeWolf: How fucking funny would the video is like, no, Shakespeare was bullshitting us.

[8:35] Ethan: Yeah, Shakespeare he made up.

[8:38] Andrew DeWolf: Give me two in memory and get thee locked up, or you'll never be able to get out.

[8:43] Ethan: Okay. Well, anyway, yeah, Hamlet reference. Ophelia's nunnery. All of us are wrong. They referenced Hamlet. I don't really get it, but they did it.

[8:52] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, literally, as soon as you reference Shakespeare, bam. That's smart. You've done it.

[8:55] Ethan: Yeah, look at Tommy.

[9:01] Andrew DeWolf: That was that was my big complaint about the room, is that there wasn't enough Shakespeare references.

[9:06] Ethan: To be or not to be how is your sex life?

[9:12] Jess McInall: Oh my gosh. Wow, we're we're right on track. So Andrew, um, what was your initial thoughts on it?

[9:19] Andrew DeWolf: Uh well, I I agree that the set looks awful. There's like four chairs at the top, and that's that's about all they got. Let me frame it like this, though. We just so the audience has some context. We watched a bootleg of the uh Kennedy Center's performance, which is basically uh glorified reading of it where they all have their scripts in their hands and all that.

[9:40] Ethan: Yeah, they were that was bothering the hell out of me. I was like, why does everybody have a book? And then the very it was a reference has his book out and he like he sh accidentally shows it to the audience, and it's like highlighted. I'm like, this is just their lines, what the hell?

[9:53] Andrew DeWolf: Because they tend to throw these together really fast because the Kennedy Center is only open for like certain periods, and it's basically a test run for Broadway to see if like there's interest in it to be a full Broadway run. Most of the time it doesn't work out that way, but that's really what it's for.

[10:07] Ethan: Right, right, right.

[10:09] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, yeah, so that that was definitely what that was. It's distracting, yes. But this is the only recording of the show, and pretty much the only major performance outside of like 2003 and 1979.

[10:20] Ethan: Sure.

[10:20] Andrew DeWolf: The strange thing is though, because in the show they have uh one the main character likes to read these books. So when he has the book in his hand, sometimes it's like a prop, and then other times it's just like, why does he have a book?

[10:32] Ethan: Yeah, like everybody's like everybody has a book.

[10:35] Andrew DeWolf: Like everyone has a book for no reason. It's like it's it it's almost like are they trying to make some sort of meta joke? Like everyone has their own book they like, or smarter than it actually is. Like what's going on here?

[10:47] Ethan: When you think about it, they're all just reading books.

[10:50] Andrew DeWolf: We're all just reading books, man.

[10:51] Ethan: We're all reading different books, man.

[10:53] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it was frustrating because they all had books, they all had props, but then whenever they had to like hand a check to one another or like hand a letter to somebody, they would like mime it. I was like, really? You can't just like put a an envelope in the book and have that be the prop?

[11:02] Ethan: Like, okay.

[11:08] Andrew DeWolf: Just rip a piece out of the book and hand that.

[11:10] Ethan: Yeah, just like hand him a page. Like the why why are we like imitating that?

[11:14] Andrew DeWolf: It's just it was weird. A lot of weird choices in the show. It's it's fine though. I I got past that, and I don't know, I feel like the story itself is pretty pretty good, pretty solid once you really get into it.

[11:29] Ethan: I was shocked by how much I liked it too. Like, I feel like the main character is is a very uh relatable character, and he's kind of off his rocker a little bit though, aren't we? It's very cool, but like in a good way, yeah, like in a really good way.

[11:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he's like a he's like a guy who just has a bunch of money, and he's like, I hate being rich, so I'm just gonna go and give all this money to these poor people. It's it's so weird, but it's great.

[11:56] Ethan: Yeah, like Ethan, you've done a lot of retrospectives on Howard Ashman's's work. I'm very curious where you think this fits in and how it compares as a musical aficionado yourself.

[12:07] Ethan: It's it's kind of fascinating. Like, if if I were to watch this and then like I walked out of the theater and someone was like, Hey, the guys behind The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast did this, I would say, absolutely no way. You know, like the guys who did Little Shop of Horrors did this. I'd be like, You're you're messing with me. There's absolutely no way this happened.

[12:25] Ethan: Because while I was going through it, I was kind of like, I was looking for those mechanisms, you know, stuff that sounded like Ellen Mencken, like elements that looked like Howard Ashman's, and I couldn't really pick up on them. Um there were definitely a couple moments where you can you can feel the music backing up. It was kind of like you'd hear this vamp for longer than you normally would in a musical before the number would actually start.

[12:49] Ethan: And I really like that because in some instances it really kind of fused the um like the music, the musical number and the dialogue together, and that's something that Ashman like talked to Disney about, saying that that's what he was going for. So that was really cool. But um, in terms of like the structure and the numbers, it you can definitely like retros retroactively, retrospectively, you can tell that like an inexperienced Ashman is working on this, but it doesn't, it doesn't have like their fingerprint, you know what I mean?

[13:21] Andrew DeWolf: Mm-hmm.

[13:22] Ethan: I completely understand what you mean. And I feel that too, but in a way that I felt positively about it. Like there felt like a self-seriousness and a sincerity to this, where in all is uh all the other work, you feel the sincerity and a tongue in a cheek. I feel like the tongue was not in its cheek very hard in this, at least not absolutely their other work.

[13:43] Ethan: Absolutely. You can you can you can completely tell that they're like this is a kick-ass book, and we're gonna make an amazing show out of this. And it's like it like I was like, if I have any criticisms about the show, it almost feels like it takes itself a little too seriously. Like at the very end, when um when the protagonist is like lecturing about his PTSD, you're like, this is a really, really fucking heavy moment.

[14:06] Jess McInall: Right. You know, and like it, you couldn't really put that into a song, it would be really difficult.

[14:12] Ethan: I'm face to face with a German in a gas mask. I do what I've been taught. I jam my knee into the man's groin, drive my bayonet into his throat, smash his jaw with my rifle butt. And then I hear an American sergeant.

[14:27] Jess McInall: Cease fire!

[14:28] Ethan: He's yelling. Hold your fire, you guys.

[14:37] Jess McInall: Jesus Christ.

[14:38] Ethan: These aren't soldiers.

[14:42] Jess McInall: They're firemen.

[14:45] Ethan: I'd killed three unarmed firemen. And the one I'd bayonette. When they got his gas mask off. He couldn't have been more than 14 years old. My god, I didn't know. I didn't mean to. Not me. Not me. But it was me. Yes, it was me. And out the window of this bus, I think I see. I do. I see.

[15:30] Jess McInall: And it's it's almost like a Shakespearean soliloquy, you know?

[15:34] Ethan: Like, uh, like Hamlet.

[15:35] Jess McInall: Mm-hmm.

[15:36] Ethan: Yeah, exactly. Well, honestly, that was the moment where it took me to the like, I'm enjoying this show. This is a lot of fun to like, no, this show is a lot more than I thought it was.

[15:46] Jess McInall: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[15:47] Ethan: Like that moment where he, I believe it's called like uh firestorm consuming Indianapolis. Like, it's that moment of like, oh shit, here's my PTSD, and here's me sincerely telling you why I am the way I am.

[16:00] Jess McInall: Yeah.

[16:01] Ethan: It's like a reverse I want song. Like it explains his motivations like three songs from the end.

[16:07] Jess McInall: Yeah, yeah. It's sort of structured backwards.

[16:11] Ethan: Like, um, oh hang on, I got the I got the numbers open. There's a dealer Deerophilia, right? Which I I mean it doesn't really define him, but it does serve as kind of like an I want song where he's like, listen, I'm taking all my money, I'm I'm hopping on a bunch of buses, I'm going around this around the whole uh United States, and I'm giving a bunch of money to volunteer firefighters.

[16:31] Jess McInall: And then you get thank god for the volunteer fire brigade, and that whole thing just seems really like farcical. Like, what is he doing? Why is he doing this?

[16:39] Ethan: And for the volunteer fire brigade, really comes off as a comedic number. Like it's supposed to be funny, right?

[16:46] Jess McInall: Um, but then like by the absolute end of the show, end of the second act, second to last number, it's just like holy shit, this was really serious. And it repaints everything you saw before that in a whole different light.

[16:59] Ethan: Absolutely.

[17:00] Jess McInall: Yeah, because at the beginning of the show, his he doesn't get the uh the number telling what he wants, he just gets a number being like, I don't really know what I want. I wish someone would tell me, but I'm just gonna go do this stuff.

[17:11] Ethan: Yeah, yeah.

[17:13] Jess McInall: And I don't know. I I think it's all fantastic, though. I don't know what to say.

[17:19] Ethan: I will I will say I will say this, right? Cheese nips had me laughing my ass off. That was hilarious. Funniest songs I've ever heard in a musical.

[17:31] Jess McInall: He just invites all these normal people in and they just destroy his house and his wife's like losing it.

[17:36] Ethan: Yeah. Oh, just like when she's just like on her knees and just like cheese nips, cheese nips. She's like crumbling them in her face. I was like, oh my god, this is amazing.

[17:45] Jess McInall: Do cheese nips even exist anymore? They got rid of those, right? It's just cheez-its now.

[17:49] Ethan: And then there's cheese Cheetos, like, which are basically cheese. There's no cheese, cheese nips are gone. Am I wrong?

[17:56] Jess McInall: Cheese nips are still around.

[17:57] Ethan: Oh god, no. Am I old now? Cheese nips are gone. There's no cheese nips anymore.

[18:03] Jess McInall: Cheese nips were around until like the 2000s, and they're gone now. They've been deleted.

[18:10] Ethan: Have they really?

[18:12] Jess McInall: No.

[18:13] Ethan: It's like the Oreo cereal. It'll come back one day.

[18:16] Jess McInall: Wait, I'm looking at apparently I can order them through Walmart.

[18:21] Ethan: Never mind. Forget it. I didn't say anything. But they do look like cheese.

[18:25] Jess McInall: Can we talk about briefly? Because I'm very curious on your guys' opinion on this. Now, this talks a lot about class and like the rich in the lower class and the middle class and all that. And it feels like they're making fun of all of them equally.

[18:37] Ethan: Like it stands like, yeah, middle class is good, but also they make fun of them and call him dumb. What is your thought on this show's thoughts on class?

[18:46] Jess McInall: Do you think?

[18:46] Ethan: It's honestly there's what they show and then there's what they say, and I'm not entirely convinced that they're both on the same level. Um we're talking about cheese nips, and like in cheese nips, there's one part where like the pregnant chick is like stealing silverware and putting it in her purse, and like it shows that the whole community is like uneducated, don't really know what's going on, but they're like genuinely hurting for money, and so you're supposed to be like sympathetic.

[19:15] Jess McInall: But at the end, uh Mufasa, Darth Vader, James Earl Jones himself playing the author, literally says, like, it doesn't matter if they're mean, it doesn't matter if they're they're stupid, it doesn't matter if they're like dirty, smelly, nasty, the worst people to be around. Everyone deserves deserves like food and respect.

[19:37] Ethan: And I I don't know if I ever had a moment where it feels like Rosewater is sitting there and he makes that revelation for himself. Or did I miss it? I feel like he always just had this sincere love of these people.

[19:52] Jess McInall: He's the only one that kind of sees them as people as opposed to these lower class citizens. It's more like his wife and his father, he's fighting with them, and they are the ones that are like uppity and don't want anything to do with these lower class people and they don't get it.

[20:09] Ethan: So for Rosewater has that one part where he talks about the the money river and how people are not told where it is.

[20:18] Jess McInall: Oh, right, right, right.

[20:19] Ethan: When they're born. And I feel like that's him saying what his actual opinion is. Like he thinks that the rich people are just born that way, and nobody else ever had a chance.

[20:29] Jess McInall: Right.

[20:29] Ethan: And you know, nobody was born near the river.

[20:31] Jess McInall: Right, right, right.

[20:32] Ethan: Yeah. But like in in that kind of framework where you look at sort of like the upper class um characterized by his wife and his father, it almost feels like the lower class populace, because they're kind of all one giant character, serve as an instrument to get back at his father and his wife, not necessarily for the betterment of the community, or did I misread that?

[20:58] Jess McInall: I don't know. He helps them in some ways, but he obviously doesn't help them in all ways. I mean, he just kind of is giving money to like random people or fire brigades, and like that's not really gonna cause any actual change.

[21:11] Ethan: So maybe he's not going about it the right way, or well, it doesn't really like it really explain. I don't it does it it does explain why he's doing it, but it very like bluntly and concretely at the very end is told to the audience through the literal author.

[21:31] Jess McInall: It's like it's because everyone deserves respect. And I I'm like I'm racking my brain trying to think like, was there ever a moment where Rosewater was sitting down next to his phone going, I'm doing this because all humans deserve respect. I don't know if Rosewater really has a motivation.

[21:46] Ethan: It makes me wonder where Kurt Vonnegut, the original author, sits on this, because I know his daughter was one of the producers of the original show. So she had a deep hand in like what was being portrayed here.

[21:59] Jess McInall: Right.

[22:00] Ethan: And I and so there so Kilgore Trout is not a Vonnegut stand-in, right?

[22:11] Jess McInall: He kind of is, but he also isn't.

[22:15] Ethan: He is in the other books, but I wouldn't quite say he is in this story, if that makes sense, is the only reason why I'm like iffy on it. Because like if it's if it's not supposed to be Vonnegut, then is it Vonnegut or Vonnegut or Vonnegut?

[22:30] Jess McInall: Vonnegut is what I've heard.

[22:31] Ethan: What if if it's not supposed to be a Vonnegut stand-in, then he could be an unreliable narrator. Maybe he he could be saying, but it just it seems like such a sincere message that Rosewater agrees with, you know, that Elliot agrees with that.

[22:44] Jess McInall: He's like, This is this is exactly why I'm doing it, and I totally picked it up from all of your books when I showed up drunk to all those sci-fi conventions, which was really out there.

[22:54] Ethan: I'm this is the best way to do a flawed protagonist, in my opinion, where you can understand the actions, you can understand it. I don't think he ever you can put pinpoint a lesson learned, though, is the thing.

[23:06] Jess McInall: It very it very much feels like a lot of the musical or a lot of the story takes place through his lens, through Elliot's lens, Rosewater's lens, however you want to call him. Like you can see him op you can see how he's operating, and you can see how this whole world is through how he perceives it, not necessarily what's actually happening.

[23:27] Ethan: You know?

[23:28] Jess McInall: I mean, yes, but then you also have Norman Mishari with his whole subplot that is definitely not through his lens, because it's true. Rosewater never even meets him.

[23:39] Ethan: So it's the key true. Is he he's kind of the villain, right?

[23:43] Jess McInall: Yeah, in a way, he has this villain song, the magical moment, I would say.

[23:47] Ethan: Uh-huh.

[23:48] Jess McInall: Oh, and it plain clean average Americans. That song is amazing.

[23:52] Ethan: Which I guess you could see how they per how they want to show their politics of the show through him almost. Because he is trying to like his song, uh, where he's singing about the average Americans, he just wants to uh use them to make more money to for himself. He doesn't care about them.

[24:10] Jess McInall: He's just like, Man, all these poor people will like these guys because they're also poor, but I get money because of it.

[24:18] Ethan: So I wonder if he was really supposed to be more representative of like the system that will naturally facilitate these people being taken advantage of, you know?

[24:27] Jess McInall: Yeah.

[24:28] Ethan: So the system that takes advantage of these people is kind of the villain in a way.

[24:34] Jess McInall: Right.

[24:34] Ethan: So but the hero doesn't actively fight against the body. So it's like if it's not him, it'll be somebody else.

[24:39] Jess McInall: Oh, there's the other thing. So, how did we all feel about the resolution of the story?

[24:43] Ethan: Oh, sorry. The resolution of this story is just he adopts like 57 babies.

[24:49] Jess McInall: Yeah, and like he just gives them all money.

[24:51] Ethan: Yeah, it's so like that doesn't solve anything. You're only making 57 people rich. We're not able to do anything.

[24:59] Jess McInall: It also kind of like makes most of the second act not really mean anything, because that's probably what he would have done if he was just staying there.

[25:08] Ethan: You know, like if he'd never gone to the insane asylum, if he'd never had this conflict with his father or his wife or anything, he would have just eventually given a whole bunch of children a bunch of money anyway.

[25:16] Jess McInall: Right?

[25:17] Ethan: So it's like the resolution is kind of like, what are we kind of resolving here?

[25:21] Jess McInall: It's a weird kind of like everybody wins.

[25:24] Ethan: But they don't though.

[25:25] Jess McInall: Like the playing queen average Americans don't get any money.

[25:29] Ethan: That's true.

[25:30] Jess McInall: They lose their lawsuit, they don't get any money. Only people that win are these 57 babies.

[25:35] Ethan: And Elliot Rosewater.

[25:38] Jess McInall: But I thought I thought that Norman, uh I thought that Norman at the end was like representing them.

[25:45] Ethan: Trying to represent the babies and that was the point.

[25:48] Jess McInall: Oh, really?

[25:49] Ethan: Is that what Yeah, that's it. I thought that's what happened.

[25:51] Jess McInall: Like at the end, Norman is like, well represent your children and trying to get more money.

[25:56] Ethan: Man, I'm sure that was because maybe.

[26:06] Jess McInall: Yeah, because you could have a political show where the your politics don't win, and you're just trying to show how bad the politics of this is, like uh like Starship Troopers or something like that, where it's like, yeah, this system is just broken, and you we we have to fix it.

[26:20] Ethan: Like, look how broken the system is.

[26:23] Jess McInall: I get I guess I guess I'm I'm watching this and I'm looking at this musical and I'm like, who is this for?

[26:29] Ethan: That is a question, yes.

[26:31] Jess McInall: Right Kurt Vonnegut fans.

[26:33] Ethan: It's a it's it's everywhere. You know, like it's it's got it's got it's got thumbs and a lot of pies, you know, it's it's saying a lot at once, and trying to like go through every single aspect of it is really difficult while they're singing at you, you know.

[26:50] Ethan: But we all know how meticulous Howard Ashman's is, especially like in his Disney days. I mean it would be naive to think that he wasn't as meticulous about this, so why where do we see that like there has to be that touch there, doesn't there?

[27:04] Jess McInall: Yeah, well, that's that was that was a big Ashman thing, and I say Ashman because Ashman released his lectures, or Disney released like as much of his lectures as they're willing to release. So I'm not super uh familiar with like Mencken's input into the story or how this works, but something that Ashman always preaches or has preached, or that I've seen people who knew him said that he preached was how like every number has to have a purpose in the narrative.

[27:33] Ethan: If you can pull the number and pull the song out of the show, and the story still makes sense, you haven't done your job. And so like I'm going over the list and I'm kind of like, yeah, if you pull any one of these out, you would be missing something kind of significant. Even something as comedic as "Thank God for the Volunteer Fire Brigade," the levity in that number is what makes the PTSD speech at the end so insane. Um, but it doesn't follow musical theater structure classically, which is also another thing that kind of was a red flag for me. I'm like, what's going on here? Right, right, right. There's no traditional "I want" song. There's no like, there's no specifically fun number. There's no like charm number, so to say.

Right. I mean, I keep coming back to "cheese nips" because it's just such a giant red flag. It's like it really sticks out. But it's like it's an "I am" song that doubles as the comedic as like a comedy number, but it's for a very serious character who has her own arc. You know, and I'm like, that's like a triple entendre going in three different directions. Like, wow. You know? I want some cheese nips.

[28:49] Jess McInall: Hi, welcome to our mid-show announcement. Today's show is brought to you by our extremely kind donations by our donors at Patreon. Just read the list. Alright, our current patrons are Stephanie L., Terry Needleman, Max Lunig, Benjamin Lair, Lily Accles, McKenzie Horner, John Donna, Taryn the Duck, Melissa Goldman, Jess Lightning, Ewan Castle, Haley McDonald, Taskier, Cal McLeod, Fire of September, Mina Maniri, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, Haley Murray, Alison Wonderland, B-Way Flicks, Michael Johan, Lathaniel Stacy Coomb, Joseph Evans Green, Luna Rocks 222, Iraegold Durey, Whiter, William Want, Carrie Ahergale, Christine Malmadal, Ben Packard, Mezzanine Theater Diary, and Carson O'Connor. They give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese.

If you would like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, such as Patreon Only Commentaries, our episodes a day early, or even earlier, come join us over at Patreon. Alright, let's get back to the show.

[29:52] ♪ Musical number: "Dear Ophelia" — performed by Ethan ♪

[30:49] Ethan: So there's a repeating song throughout "Ophelia" where Rosewater basically is writing a letter to Ophelia and just telling her like what's currently going on, and it's like his desires and needs and viewpoint filtered through that. I'm not sure that's the best framing device for like telling someone his needs.

[31:10] Jess McInall: Yeah, it's almost like in lieu of an "I Want" song. He never gets like, um, he never has a sidekick. He never has someone he—he's a Gaston without a LeFou. He can't like sing his thoughts to this character on stage and have it make sense. So you kind of have to listen to a one-sided conversation he's having with his wife through these letters.

[31:35] Ethan: You know? Yeah, but it also feels like a fear of committing to the medium where you can sing to an audience and just have that be it.

[31:45] Jess McInall: Hmm, yeah.

[31:46] Ethan: In my opinion, at least. Like, you don't need to have Tevye say "If I Were a Rich Man" to God specifically, you do, but you don't need that. Just have that direct with a camera.

[31:56] Jess McInall: But that's still doubles as an "I Want" song.

[32:01] Ethan: Exactly. You know. And this one feels like a half-hearted "I Want" song, even though, as you've seen from the lectures, um, Howard Ashman's is a big proponent of like the "I Want" song or the "Somewhere That's Green" or "Part of Your World."

[32:15] Jess McInall: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[32:15] Ethan: But it's "Somewhere That's Wet," I think was the nickname for "Part of Your World," right? Because it was so much like "Somewhere That's Green."

[32:22] Jess McInall: Yes.

[32:22] Ethan: And I think that's something that really stands out in this whole show is that Ashman does a really great job at giving every character that you really need to be aware of, um, a number to introduce them. You know, even the plain clean average Americans, that couple gets introduced with the "Rhode Island Tango."

[32:45] Jess McInall: And it's like this is after the second act, these are like secondary, maybe even like tertiary characters that we don't really need to know their names, but even they get their own number where you get to like really feel how much they absolutely hate each other.

[32:59] Ethan: Um, but yeah, like you get "cheese nips," you get "Mishari's Waltz," um even like "Fire Brigades," like the notion of a fire brigade gets their own like defining setting number. But yeah, like Elliot Rosewater doesn't really just doesn't have this one climactic moment where he's like, "This is what I want," except for when he tells his wife in that letter, like, "Alright, I'm going around the country for reasons," you know.

[33:28] Jess McInall: And I think now that I'm thinking about it, having him tell his wife all these things in letters makes it stand out even more when he's telling us the audience something when he gets to a firestorm of consuming Indianapolis.

[33:42] Ethan: Right, right, right, right. I don't think the audience is supposed to understand his motives, is the thing. Like it almost feels like it's meant to be kind of like, "What is this guy's deal? I don't understand."

[33:54] Jess McInall: Like if the audience doesn't—if it's not completely clear that the audience understands what his motivations are, it kind of lends itself to making it seem like it might be a mental health issue.

[34:05] Ethan: Which is like I think how the villains in the show try and portray it, which is why he ends up in an insane asylum.

[34:11] Jess McInall: Yes.

[34:12] Ethan: Right, right. And I think the audience is supposed to kind of think that, yeah, there probably is something wrong with him.

[34:17] Jess McInall: Right, but it's kind of dancing that line between like having the audience think it's a mental health thing as opposed to like just not getting the information that we actually need.

[34:26] Ethan: But they do give it to us eventually. Where I mean they actually confirm that it is a mental health thing, but right, right.

[34:32] Jess McInall: But well, I mean, I get—I think more effective than just the letters was that like real quick montage where he shows up wasted at a science fiction convention talking about Kilgore.

[34:44] Ethan: Like that was like, "Oh, okay, this guy's like for sure unstable," and then pulling off the same pizza trick at every single volunteer fire brigade, like around the country. You're like, "Oh, like what? Am I watching a rerun or something? Like, this is weird."

[34:58] Jess McInall: Is this a scene from a pornography?

[35:05] Ethan: "Anybody order a pizza? Extra sausage?"

[35:13] Jess McInall: Thank God for the volunteer fire brigade.

[35:18] Ethan: Thank Christ for the crime of arson. If it wasn't for these, I'd be sitting at home with the wife and Johnny Carson.

[35:32] Jess McInall: Thank God for the volunteer fire brigade.

[35:37] Ethan: Thank Christ for the careless smoker. If it wasn't for these, I could not be with my pals here, praying poker.

[35:50] Jess McInall: Let's move on to "Thank God for the Volunteer Fire Brigade," really quick. This is the best song, I think.

[35:54] Ethan: I don't know. It's pretty good.

[35:56] Jess McInall: This one is such a weirdly—like we talk about it as a charm number, a fun levity number, but it's very slow. It's not like a bump bouncy song. It is kind of like it reflects the characters very well, which is kind of like slow moving and older, but like lethargic, yeah.

[36:16] Ethan: Yeah, and it's such a weird thing that it kind of works in that way. It still works.

[36:22] Jess McInall: No, absolutely.

[36:25] Ethan: Yeah, thank God for the crime of arson.

[36:28] Jess McInall: Oh, okay, alright, or just go in there.

[36:30] Ethan: Okay.

[36:31] Jess McInall: Oh, yeah. Well, that was one. There was one part that was really distracting. Because like I said, I watched it with my girlfriend, and there's one point where some of the actresses are in like pencil skirts and they have to slide down the fire pole, and my girlfriend was like, "Oh, whoever made them do that is an asshole." Because you can watch it and you're like, "That looks really uncomfortable, and I would not be okay with doing something like that."

[36:56] Ethan: Uh, choreographers don't often think about women. Like, like watch "A Chorus Line" or "All That Jazz," and you'll get an idea.

[37:03] Jess McInall: Oh, yeah, but it's just like in that kind of skirt, sliding down a pole and landing on heels, like, oh god, that sounds awful.

[37:12] Ethan: Can I bring up just a small dumb thing about this specific Kennedy Center performance? Um, it bothers me a lot, and I didn't realize this until I'm watching. So, Santino Fontana, who plays Rosewater.

[37:26] Jess McInall: Um, he was Prince Hans in "Frozen," and he got a Tony for "Tootsie," right?

[37:33] Ethan: Yes.

[37:34] Jess McInall: Wow.

[37:34] Ethan: Yes.

[37:34] Jess McInall: He beat Jess to the punch.

[37:37] Ethan: Wow.

[37:39] Jess McInall: He was alright, but he's also a very strong muscular man, and there's it and it looks weird putting him in like drag because you can just see his muscles popping out.

[37:49] Ethan: I'm not touching that whole musical with a ten-foot pole.

[37:52] Jess McInall: We just did a go.

[37:54] Ethan: Yeah, no, I saw it, but I was just like, I was listening to it. I was like, man, I am never gonna watch this show.

[37:59] Jess McInall: It was not great.

[38:03] Ethan: But nevertheless, um, he was on a show called "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" for the first season and a half, and then he left, and then his character comes back, and he's played by Skylar Astin, who plays Mishari in the show.

[38:15] Jess McInall: So we have both versions of this character in the show.

[38:19] Ethan: I see.

[38:20] Jess McInall: That's interesting.

[38:22] Ethan: Yeah, and that just like I didn't realize until I watch it. I'm like, we got two Greg's going on here.

[38:28] Jess McInall: God bless you, Greg.

[38:30] Ethan: Thank you, Greg.

[38:31] Jess McInall: Thank you for your service.

[38:33] Ethan: Thank you for your service.

[38:34] Jess McInall: Alright, let's move on to like what I think we're all agreeing is the funniest song in the show, "cheese nips."

[38:34] Ethan: Cheese nips.

[38:42] Jess McInall: They want cheese nips.

[38:44] Ethan: They poo-poo the pâté du pay.

[38:48] Jess McInall: But the cheese nips.

[38:50] Ethan: They like cheese nips.

[38:52] Jess McInall: And they're not even touching the brie.

[38:54] Ethan: Hey Diana, what's that gray stuff over there?

[38:57] Jess McInall: Don't ask me.

[38:58] Ethan: Hey Diana, can I have a Coke?

[39:01] Jess McInall: Cola.

[39:03] Ethan: Coca-Cola.

[39:04] Jess McInall: It's forget the Moët and Chandon.

[39:09] Ethan: Okay, let's see.

[39:10] Jess McInall: Oh, there's some Pepsi.

[39:12] Ethan: God, the whole bowl of cheese nips is gone.

[39:17] Jess McInall: Mother Mary, the hams from Westphalia, and the lamb I had flown from Australia.

[39:21] Ethan: Bet they'll want it well done or sliced thin on a bun with a sauce.

[39:26] Jess McInall: Orange sauce.

[39:27] Ethan: McDonald's sauce.

[39:30] Jess McInall: You see, no one wanted to go out with me on account of my skinny.

[39:33] Ethan: Even Tony Wayne, right before stepdad knocked her up.

[39:36] Jess McInall: She called me about that last week.

[39:38] Ethan: Cheese nips.

[39:39] Jess McInall: Cheese nips.

[39:40] Ethan: I'm gonna eat some cheese nips out of my carpet.

[39:43] Jess McInall: Oh my god.

[39:45] Ethan: So, um, Jess, frame the song in the story for us because we talked about it a little bit, but I want to know how it fits into this story.

[39:52] Jess McInall: So I want to make sure that I'm understanding this properly. So Elliot Rosewater is the son of a senator.

[39:58] Ethan: Yes.

[39:59] Jess McInall: And the senator is the senator of the whole state where Rosewater, the town, is in.

[40:05] Ethan: But the problem is that they all live in New York because they're all upper class, rich, fancy types.

[40:10] Jess McInall: So in Rosewater, in the town of Rosewater, there is like the Rosewater Manor, where the governor, senator, rich fucker is supposed to live, right?

[40:21] Ethan: And in the number, it's like, oh, he only spends a week there out of every year because it's the minimum he's supposed to as the elected official of the town.

[40:29] Jess McInall: So the whole town is just like destitute. There's no money, there's no jobs, there's no work, factories have closed, everybody's on the streets, a bunch of homeless people.

[40:37] Ethan: But the manor is in basically pristine condition. So Elliot Rosewater opens the manor to have a party with everybody in, and his wife Ophelia decides, like, okay, I'm gonna be supportive. We're gonna throw a party. Uh, they open up the doors, and everybody, it's kind of like bring your own beer, and they brought cheese nips.

[40:55] Jess McInall: And so Ophelia has this like super nice carpet, and she's setting out all these fancy hors d'oeuvres, and she's just on her knees losing her shit that everyone is going crazy over these cheese nips.

[41:08] Ethan: And so you're watching this massive culture clash of Ophelia, who like raised in the nicest part of New York, is suddenly confronted with people that she's never even heard of before.

[41:20] Ethan: I mean, that's basically it. You forgot the cheese nip sponsorship, but that's what the sponsorship, but cheese nips gave the show. But that's a meta thing.

[41:30] Ethan: So I wonder if that's a licensing issue. Theater has different rules, is the way, more or less the way of it. All I want to say is look up cheese nips on Wikipedia right now. Just do it. Just do it.

[41:44] Jess McInall: Are you editing the article?

[41:46] Ethan: No, I'm not. I that I didn't edit the article. That's the thing. It's in the god. Oh my gosh. I'm going there right now. Hang on. Oh my god. Jesus Christ.

[42:03] Ethan: Kurt Vonnegut, God bless you, comma, Mr. Rosewater. Period. In this satire, Sylvia becomes deranged watching her guests prefer cheese and Sylvia. Sorry, I keep calling her Ophelia. Uh Sylvia becomes deranged watching her guests prefer cheese nips to her other food preparation. That's incredible. That's perfect. It's so cheese.

[42:22] Ethan: Statista calculates that in 2016, 1.5 million Americans consumed eight or more bags of cheese nips. And do you know what else came out in 2016? This Kennedy Sender production. So my good golly gosh, they did that show.

[42:40] Jess McInall: Oh, yeah.

[42:41] Ethan: It's all coming together. Who produced this? Who made this Wikipedia? Who produced the show? Cheese nips. Who owns cheese nips? Uh Nabisco.

[42:51] Jess McInall: Mondalay.

[42:52] Ethan: Oh, Nabisco. I was like, no Mondalais, Nabisco. Alright, no Nabisco. Now we're now we're researching. Now we're in the thick of it. Yeah, we're we're intense cheese nips. I mean, I think we all know everyone's cheese rating. Follow the crumb trail. Follow the crumbs. They're in my experimental productions. It's all in the nips.

[43:13] Ethan: My question is why is the cheese nips Wikipedia so short that literally a fourth of it is dedicated to Mr. Rosewater? I cannot. I don't know. It's crazy.

[43:25] Jess McInall: That is the next one. Do you feel like there's one? Do you feel like there's one like marketing or branding guy in the cheese cheese nips HQ? And he's just like looking at this Wikipedia page, just smoking a pack every hour, just like, how the fuck do we beat this?

[43:37] Ethan: Oh my god. Somewhere make a cheese nip TikTok. Something. Do a make a YouTube about it. I don't know. I wonder if a podcast won't spend an entire quarter talking about a Wikipedia page. Make a podcast. We got cheese nip podcasts. What do you like to do with your nips? Musicals with cheese nips? Anyone? Don't pull your nips out in public, because people start coming for them.

[44:06] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god.

[44:08] Ethan: But yeah, okay, but getting getting back to the number. I love the number. I thought it was hilarious. It tonally, I feel like it sticks out. Right? I feel like a lot of the other numbers up to this point are relatively homogenous, and this one just comes out of left field, and you're just like, oh my god, this is like a total tonal shift. And I feel like the show really needs it.

[44:31] Jess McInall: I'm with you. I completely agree. Andrew, what about you? What do you feel about it?

[44:36] Andrew DeWolf: I think this song was great. And just the imagery of her on her knees just eating like dumping cheese nips into her mouth off the carpet. It's just magnifique.

[44:49] Ethan: Well, we're kind of—

[44:49] Jess McInall: No go ahead.

[44:55] Andrew DeWolf: No, mine is really dumb and off the track. It's just that the woman that played Sylvia in the show is also Bobby Moynihan's wife.

[45:00] Jess McInall: Oh, okay.

[45:03] Andrew DeWolf: That has nothing to do with anything, Jess. Thank you for the next one.

[45:06] Jess McInall: I know that our conversation is a good idea.

[45:07] Andrew DeWolf: You're welcome. Cheese nips. Cheese nips. I just like this boxes of cheese nips. Everybody's got cheese nips. And you know what? I love cheese nips, so I can't argue. What is your thoughts on cheese nips in general as a food, Ethan?

[45:25] Ethan: Uh, as of right now, they are far superior. I'm going on explicitly a cheese nip diet, cheese nip focused diet. I'm gonna legally change my middle name to cheese nip. They're helpful, they're healthy. They're healthy. They are healthy. If you eat cheese nips, you will make it on Broadway. I think we know that. Fuck keto. Fuck all that shit. Oh no, no, cheese nips, cheese nips is what Broadway stars eat. If you actually look, there's a Kennedy production where all of the Broadway stars on stage would eat cheese nips for absolutely no reason. Don't look into it. Cheese nips are the triple threat. Okay, cheese nips are the triple threat. Yes. They're cheesy, they're crunchy, and they're nippy.

[46:06] Jess McInall: I think we have our t-shirt, Andrew. Is it getting nipply in here? I mean, nippy in here.

[46:12] Ethan: And the one I bayonette. When they got his gas mask off, he couldn't have been more than 14 years old.

[46:24] Andrew DeWolf: My god, I didn't know.

[46:28] Ethan: I didn't mean to.

[46:31] Andrew DeWolf: Not me.

[46:33] Ethan: Not me.

[46:36] Andrew DeWolf: But it was me.

[46:39] Ethan: And not the windows of this bus. I think I see.

[46:44] Andrew DeWolf: I do.

[46:47] Ethan: I see.

[46:54] Andrew DeWolf: Consuming Indianapolis. Igniting everything. The holiday in. The hot dog stands and dodges. Gas stations. Motor lodges. The day that couldn't be has finally been. A fire stone consuming Indianapolis. And every one of us is gone to burn. My great-grandfather Noah. My dear grandfather Samuel. God watched us to our worst.

[47:44] Jess McInall: No, it's all right. We gotta move on to the other big standout song in the show, which is a firestorm consuming Indianapolis.

[47:56] Ethan: Right.

[47:57] Jess McInall: Yikes. It's a that's a hard shift from—

[47:59] Ethan: Yeah, it is. So I'm gonna make Andrew describe what happens in the song.

[48:06] Andrew DeWolf: Very please. Um well he kills a 14-year-old firefighter in World War II or Vietnam, or I don't know.

[48:07] Ethan: World War II.

[48:14] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's World War II.

[48:15] Ethan: World War II, okay. Yeah, and he feels really bad about it. And that's why he likes firefighters so much. I mean, that's that's kind of a super short version of it, but yeah.

[48:25] Ethan: He didn't just kill him, he bayoneted him in the throat.

[48:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he bayonet him. Yeah, and then he takes then he takes the gas mask off, and he's like, oh, he's 14 or something. And that was just one, that was one of three that he killed.

[48:40] Ethan: Well, I think I think the point that the show tries to draw attention to, um, and help help me if I'm getting off the rails and I looked way too hard into it. But I thought it was really interesting that they focused on volunteer firefighters. Um that was like that's a really weird distinction to make. I wonder if you're just throwing in that adjective to try and be like funnier or something. But by the end, when he ends up killing firefighters, he's not killing just firefighters, he's killing volunteer firefighters. It's World War II, and all the firefighters would have likely been like enlisted or conscripted or gone gone to fight. And so the whole point of it being a 14-year-old is that he's volunteering, he's putting his life at risk for no money, for no gain just to help other people.

And I thought that thematically, that's what tied into the show in that volunteer firefighters are risking their lives for no money just to help people, which is basically what Elliot Rosewater is trying to do with the show.

[49:34] Jess McInall: I mean, I agree there too. Um, a hundred percent. That is he sees himself as a volunteer firefighter just as much as he sees himself as a soldier as much as he sees himself as a millionaire.

[49:44] Ethan: Exactly. Right, right.

[49:46] Jess McInall: But I think he wants to be more like ethically, right? And more in terms of like characterization, he wants to be more of a volunteer firefighter and less of what he was before he went to war. He doesn't want to be a millionator anymore.

[50:01] Andrew DeWolf: He does not want to be a millionaire.

[50:03] Ethan: He's the millionator.

[50:05] Andrew DeWolf: Or does he does he actually want to be a millionator? Does he want to be making millionaires?

[50:10] Ethan: Hmm. There's a thought.

[50:12] Jess McInall: You know what? That's fair. Can can I say one more thing about the show and how the the town of like the town doesn't I feel like embrace him the way that I feel. They embrace his deeds, but they don't embrace him as a person. It's weird.

[50:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[50:29] Jess McInall: Yeah. Like like with the guy who's got the noose around his neck who calls like in the middle of the night. Right. He knows he knows Elliot as kind of like this prophetic image, not as an actual person. And I feel like the musical, especially because like the ending like really tries to be very literal with like the theming of the show. It feels like they're they're saying it doesn't matter how they treat you or how these people will treat you, you still have to give them respect. You know?

[51:01] Ethan: Yeah, and I feel like I don't Elliot's got this weird moral center. Like he has morals, definitely, and he sticks by them, but then there's like that moment when the woman accidentally calls the wrong phone line and he's like, Oh, people like you should fucking die, and then she calls the right line, right? He's like, Oh, sweetie, what's wrong?

[51:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:23] Ethan: But but again, that kind of that ties into the dear Ophelia with the letters to his wife, where he's where it's kind of like there's no I want song. Why is he doing this? And doing it for like a mental health reason, I don't feel is a super satisfying, or like thematically, I don't feel like it's very satisfying in terms of why he's doing this. Because on all the Wikipedia articles, it's just like he had like grows a conscience one day, and his heart grows three sizes too big, and all the who's get their things, you know, like I don't think that's accurate at all. And I don't know who wrote those Wikipedia articles, but I feel like that is not at all what happens.

[51:58] Jess McInall: I think he is feeling incredibly guilty about what he did in World War II, for sure, but I don't think he grew a conscience.

[52:08] Ethan: I'm looking at the at the Wikipedia article for the book, and it says Elliot, a World War II veteran and volunteer firefighter who has developed a social conscience, sets out across America visiting various small towns before landing in Rosewater.

[52:21] Jess McInall: Maybe the book is different than what they show in the—

[52:21] Ethan: Oh, that's a thought.

[52:21] Jess McInall: In the show.

[52:26] Ethan: It could be that. And if anyone wants, I just found this like as we were talking, but Alan Mankin has broken down every single number on the album and explained exactly why it's there. It's kind of interesting.

[52:38] Jess McInall: No way.

[52:40] Ethan: Yeah.

[52:41] Jess McInall: That see, that would be good. Where where's that?

[52:44] Ethan: Um, it's on Playbill.com. He wrote it in 2017.

[52:48] Jess McInall: Oh my god, hang on.

[52:49] Ethan: Playbill.

[52:51] Jess McInall: Uh yo, can we get links to this?

[52:54] Ethan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish I could I can send Andrew a link because I know where to find him, so you can just send me one on Twitter or something.

[53:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I'll send it to you on Twitter.

[53:02] Ethan: Oh, I got it.

[53:03] Jess McInall: Oh, cool.

[53:04] Ethan: I hope this doesn't play something.

[53:05] Jess McInall: No, it shouldn't. Playbill is pretty good at not being a dick.

[53:11] Ethan: But he's very, very clear on like the longest one is obviously uh Firestorm consuming Indianapolis. Um but he doesn't really explain motivation here. He explains mostly about like how actors felt while doing this, but so I'm very I don't feel like Alan Menken is a story guy. As much as I like him, I feel like he relies on his lyricist a lot to figure out where the story stuff comes in.

[53:36] Jess McInall: I would tend to agree. Um especially looking at his film work. Um when you when you it uh Mencken's music and the way that he scores really feels like an uh he's an amplifier. Like he amplifies whatever scriptor or story he's given from his lyricist or his collaborators.

[53:58] Ethan: Um, because a lot of people don't a lot of people don't realize that Mencken wrote the music for Sausage Party.

[54:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I do realize that. I remember hearing it being like this is Alan Menken to a T. I was like, that happened, okay.

[54:11] Ethan: You just didn't expect something like that.

[54:13] Ethan: He did the music to a TV show called Gallivant with his new lyricist Glenn Slater, who you guys might know from the Phantom of the Opera sequel, Love Never Dies.

[54:24] Ethan: Yeah, and honestly, everything has suffered since then, and I'm glad that Disney stepped away from Alan Menken, not only because he's ineligible from winning Oscars anymore, but also because it became kind of samey.

[54:35] Ethan: Like the Lin-Manuel.

[54:37] Andrew DeWolf: What happened with him in Oscars?

[54:38] Ethan: Um, he has won too many, and they said, "All right, you're not allowed to win anymore."

[54:42] Ethan: No shit! I had no idea. Yeah, that's uh crazy. I think he's the most Oscars owned by a current living person. Wow. So he is now ineligible to win anymore. So that's why they stepped away and started doing the Lynn Manuel Miranda composings and all that. So Alan Mencken really is kind of doing his own stuff, and that's why he jumped back to Broadway to do the new score for Newsies and a bunch of other stuff. That makes a lot of sense. I wish he would come back and do um a film version of um thing. Um Rosewater, honestly, because I think that's a good one. I think this would make a great movie. I do too. Like, I'll be honest with you, I think this will make a great movie. I think there's plenty that you can like cut down and shave off to get it down to the right 90 100 minute running time. Um I don't feel like it's super CGI heavy. Uh I think that this even as a musical, not just as like a regular film, but like as a musical film, really could work.

[55:44] Jess McInall: I 100% agree. I feel like it's a Little Shop of Horrors-esque, like budget-wise film, it would be perfect. And I'm honestly sad it doesn't exist. Disney, you've got Alan Menken, like he can't win any more Oscars, but like get him to do it. I'm sitting here, you'd only need like four or five sets. You know, there's a lot of funnier sides. There's plenty you can do with this. Like, I think it's really good. The only thing, like one of the big criticisms, sort of in terms of marketing and branding the show, um is that there's cussing? Right?

[56:17] Andrew DeWolf: Right. I want to say like there's an F bomb here or there, and there's some cussing. Uh and I feel like him. You know?

[56:25] Jess McInall: Yeah, like if you cut that out, I feel like you could very easily sell this to a high school. Hugh Jackman would love to do this. I and I feel like this is actually vocally so suits him, unlike Jean Valjean or even The Greatest Showman, which I feel like does not suit a Hugh Jackman presence.

[56:39] Ethan: I feel like it would suit the more energetic Hugh Jackman.

[56:44] Jess McInall: Agreed. The huge Jackman, the huge Jackman that likes to like move. You know what I mean?

[56:50] Ethan: And he's good at playing a little crazier.

[56:53] Jess McInall: Sure, sure.

[56:55] Ethan: I always use two August playing for God me.

[57:02] Jess McInall: Oh maybe that my life makes us someone who is not me.

[57:10] Andrew DeWolf: I'm still a little scared.

[57:48] Jess McInall: Okay. Well, I feel like we've derailed perfectly enough, so now we're gonna go into this. So, what is your guys' overall thoughts and your cheese rating? Um, Ethan, do you know anything about our cheese ratings at all?

[58:00] Ethan: I do. I do know the cheese rating very well, and you know how I'm gonna rate this. Of course, everybody knows how we're gonna rate this. There's no other rating rate this show. But I'll let you start, Ethan. What is your overall thoughts?

[58:13] Ethan: Uh hidden gem. I would call this a hidden gem. This is definitely something you need to check out. I spent a lot of time looking at this kind of stuff and looking this stuff up, and I cannot believe that this flew under my radar. Uh, I'm definitely advocating for this show way more in the future. I'm definitely gonna check it out again and start hunting for more material on it. Um, and in terms of cheese rating, I'm gonna rate it a solid three and a half box of cheese nips.

[58:43] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, your turn.

[58:48] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, um. I think it's very good. A lot of really fun numbers, and there's some iffy stuff, like I don't really know what the moral is, if there even is one, but I mean. Whatever. I mean, it's fine. Uh, it's really fun. You should watch it. And I'm gonna give it uh Jimmy Neutron uh cheese nips. Uh, because it's science fiction and cheese nips common combined. Um I don't know if they ever made those. I know they made CatDog cheese nips, but I'm not. I'm gonna pretend they made Jimmy Neutron cheese nips, and that's what I'm doing.

[59:22] Ethan: I miss CatDog.

[59:25] Andrew DeWolf: That's the CatDog poop, guys. Out of one of their mouth. He's a cosmic being. He's infinite. God. But I love this show, and I really didn't expect to, is the thing. I was like, uh, this is like baby pictures, Talon Mankin and Howard Ashman's. How great could it be? And then I'm watching it and I'm like, oh my god, like compare this to anyone else's first work. I shit on Rent all the time because it deserves it. And you can still see the rough edges here, but I think that this had more of a chance to be something great than Rent ever did. So I'm really disappointed that no one really knows this show.

[1:00:03] Ethan: And if anything, I'm really glad, Ethan, you jumped onto this this episode so that a lot of your people will come onto it and get know more about Mr. Rosewater as sad as that is.

[1:00:13] Jess McInall: Like I'll say, kind of jumping onto the like the Rent and looking at I think baby pictures is a good way to put it. The earlier larval works of a lot of big names. You can there are rough edges here. There are places where if you're gonna pick this up and try and mass produce it, you're gonna have to shave some things down. But this show has a fantastic foundation. This it's just a really solid show. It's got potential. I think it belongs on the screen, as you said. A great it could be a great movie. Hugh Jackman, hop on this.

[1:00:45] Ethan: Yes.

[1:00:46] Jess McInall: And overall, my cheese rating would be a bra made of cheese slices. So if you put it on, it'd be cheese dips.

[1:00:56] Andrew DeWolf: Wow.

[1:00:58] Ethan: I hate you, Jess.

[1:01:02] Jess McInall: But do you know who we don't hate, Andrew?

[1:01:05] Andrew DeWolf: Nabisco.

[1:01:06] Jess McInall: This is the patrons! It's our wonderful patrons!

[1:01:10] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my goodness, it's the patrons!

[1:01:13] Jess McInall: No, it's seamless. How does this professional as it looks like?

[1:01:20] Ethan: You've done this before, haven't you?

[1:01:22] Jess McInall: You've done this before.

[1:01:26] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god.

[1:01:27] Jess McInall: I've missed having guests on so much. Um, thank you guys for listening to the video. We love you all so much. But Ethan, I want to give you a chance to promote all your shit. Tell us where we can find you.

[1:01:39] Ethan: I make YouTube videos on www.youtube.com. If you haven't heard of it, uh that's www.you. Is that to you.comio? Is that like Vimeo?

[1:01:49] Jess McInall: Or is that like Vimeo?

[1:01:50] Ethan: No, not Vimeo. No, no, no, no Vimeo's our biggest competitor.

[1:01:54] Jess McInall: What about Blip?

[1:01:57] Ethan: Is it similar to Blip TV?

[1:01:59] Jess McInall: No, no, no. We're not on Blip. We're YouTube. I'm ride or die. One day YouTube's gonna make it big. I promise you.

[1:02:03] Andrew DeWolf: One day.

[1:02:08] Ethan: I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know about this YouTube thing. Didn't they make you re-upload your like superhero video like 900 times?

[1:02:16] Ethan: Oh god, dude. I okay, alright. You want to get you wanna get the behind the scenes? I made 27 independent renders of my Joker video because every time I uploaded it, it flagged one thing. I cut it, re-uploaded it, and I was like, nah, there's another one. I did that for like a week straight. Anyway, that's behind the scenes stuff. I make YouTube videos, I talk about music. Um a lot of it is film music stuff if you're into that, but I also talk about other like dorky or music theory stuff. Um that's really my bread and butter. You can follow me on uh Twitter is Sideways440, like A40 A440, the tuning note.

[1:02:51] Ethan: Um I stream on Twitch once every seven months, so that's also worth checking out if you're really into it. Uh I have a Patreon if you know listening to my voice is just like, oh yeah, this dude needs 10 bucks. Um, and other than that, yeah, all my all my stuff's on YouTube.

[1:03:07] Jess McInall: And let me personally recommend his most recent video, his most recent new video on Disney live action remakes, honestly, and like brought me to tears thinking about how much they've gone downhill Disney in general and what they're doing, like those new movies.

[1:03:21] Ethan: What?

[1:03:21] Jess McInall: You don't zoom movies make me angry.

[1:03:24] Ethan: Oh, they make me angry.

[1:03:26] Jess McInall: They're so good though.

[1:03:28] Ethan: Oh, they are so not.

[1:03:29] Jess McInall: They look like they're like realistic looking, you know?

[1:03:31] Ethan: Like the old ones are so cartoony.

[1:03:34] Jess McInall: Can I say one positive thing about the Disney remakes? Just one.

[1:03:40] Ethan: You need to shut your mouth, Jess.

[1:03:42] Jess McInall: One day they're gonna be over and they're gonna stop making them.

[1:03:44] Ethan: No, they will never stop.

[1:03:46] Jess McInall: They will never stop making them.

[1:03:48] Ethan: But when Disney Plus uploaded their Lion King one, they included the commentary from John Favreau, which just consists of him making a bunch of apologies more or less.

[1:04:00] Jess McInall: Yeah, so look at that.

[1:04:02] Ethan: It's him justifying his actions and being like, maybe it worked. I don't know.

[1:04:10] Jess McInall: Sorry, we didn't mean to do this.

[1:04:13] Ethan: We tried this.

[1:04:14] Jess McInall: Um, I don't know, John wasn't a fan, but we did it anyway.

[1:04:18] Ethan: So my god, I gotta watch this.

[1:04:22] Jess McInall: It's obvious he did not really show up to work for this, and he was like one foot into Mandalorian at the time, so it's like why did you even put this commentary on the DVD, let alone record it.

[1:04:36] Ethan: Recording the commentary, and he's like, What are you gonna stop me?

[1:04:38] Jess McInall: And and then they never stopped him.

[1:04:41] Ethan: Yeah, so if you're paying money to Disney Plus, he's just sitting there in the back of the room, like, I cannot believe they're letting me get away with this. I'm gonna see how far I can take it.

[1:04:48] Jess McInall: Oh, and Beyonce sang a song.

[1:04:52] Ethan: I mean, I don't remember and he's like, I don't remember if this scene was in the animated movie, but it's in this.

[1:04:59] Jess McInall: Beyonce is my second favorite Disney princess next to next to Phil Collins, of course.

[1:05:06] Ethan: Oh my god.

[1:05:10] Jess McInall: Nevertheless, thank you guys for listening. We're on iTunes Spotify Stitcher at Musicals with Cheese. Our Twitter is at Cheesy Musicals. Our Patreon is Musicals with Cheese. Our Instagram is Musicals with Cheese. Our YouTube page is also Musicals with Cheese. But our email is musicaltheaterliz at gmail.com. Our title card was created by the absolutely incredible Jolene Casco. Go give her some love on her Instagram at Jolene Casco. I'm also on another podcast, which is called Once More with Dragons. It's premiered already, so whatever. Check it out.

[1:05:39] Ethan: Um should have done that last week.

[1:05:42] Jess McInall: Yeah, kind of. Ethan, do you do you have anything else you want to say before we wrap this up?

[1:05:47] Ethan: I feel like now we are legally obligated to make a Musicals with Cheese Nips Twitter account that does nothing but promote this musical.

[1:05:56] Jess McInall: Yes, once a week and just like listen to God. It just randomly launches numbers from the show and that's it.

[1:06:04] Ethan: I think I can make a bot do that as a thing.

[1:06:07] Jess McInall: I think you can just call it Mr. Rosewater's deepest darkest thoughts.

[1:06:13] Ethan: There you go.

[1:06:14] Jess McInall: And it's all about cheese nips.

[1:06:18] Ethan: But no, Ethan, if you ever want to come back on the show and there's ever a musical, you just like, oh, I need to talk about it. You always have a spot here. This was a joy.

[1:06:24] Andrew DeWolf: Or any of the live action ones will do full commentaries on those.

[1:06:31] Ethan: Oh no.

[1:06:32] Andrew DeWolf: No, I don't ever want to watch Beauty and the Beast again.

[1:06:35] Ethan: I watched that in the theater. It was painful.

[1:06:37] Andrew DeWolf: I can't.

[1:06:38] Jess McInall: I'm about to have an aneurysm.

[1:06:40] Andrew DeWolf: But blood pressure.

[1:06:41] Jess McInall: I can't wait for Mulan where they don't even have any music. It's gonna be good.

[1:06:44] Ethan: Beautiful.

[1:06:45] Jess McInall: I am I am I am not okay looking at or like not uh looking toward what's gonna happen with Little Mermaid.

[1:06:54] Ethan: Lynn Manuel is that's gonna make a rapping crab.

[1:06:56] Jess McInall: What are you talking about?

[1:06:58] Ethan: I love I love Howard Ashman's and Alan Akin. I'm so happy that this this show came into my life. I love Beauty and the Beast. I love The Little Mermaid.

[1:07:06] Jess McInall: They did not like I did not like what they did with Beauty and the Beast.

[1:07:09] Ethan: I am nervous about what they're gonna do to Little Mermaid.

[1:07:11] Jess McInall: It'll be boring and lame and Lynn Manuel Miranda is competent but boring, I'm discovering.

[1:07:17] Ethan: Is he like is he in? Is he doing something in it?

[1:07:19] Jess McInall: Like he's writing new songs the same way that the Pasigan Paul did new songs for Aladdin.

[1:07:26] Ethan: Okay.

[1:07:27] Jess McInall: I haven't I haven't been up with the news because it's a good thing. It's gonna be like Mary Poppins 2, but the whole thing is the underwater scene.

[1:07:34] Ethan: It's gonna be that.

[1:07:35] Jess McInall: Oh god.

[1:07:36] Ethan: And we all know how that movie.

[1:07:38] Jess McInall: People remember Mary Poppins 2, right? That happened.

[1:07:40] Andrew DeWolf: You remember that.

[1:07:41] Jess McInall: Andrew, we did an episode on it, and I just talked about how terrible it was, and you were like, it's alright.

[1:07:47] Andrew DeWolf: It was okay.

[1:07:48] Jess McInall: I was surprised it didn't come up in your live action um Disney things.

[1:07:52] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I was just I was comparing.

[1:07:53] Jess McInall: No one remembers it happened, yes.

[1:07:56] Andrew DeWolf: I completely forgot that the Disney was one. I was in Disney World like uh a week ago, and then I was like, Mary Poppins 2 existed, right? And they're like, no.

[1:08:06] Jess McInall: Well, on that note, thank you for listening. Um we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:08:13] Andrew DeWolf: Yay, cheese nips!

[1:08:14] Ethan: Cheese nips.