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[0:49] Jess: Hello and welcome to a super special bonus episode of Musicals with Cheese.

[0:53] Jess: I am incredibly honored to be joined by LadyKnightTheBrave from the incredible YouTube channel.

[0:58] LadyKnightTheBrave: How are you doing?

[1:00] Jess: Hi.

[1:01] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's really funny to hear you just turn it on.

[1:08] Jess: It has become a joke because for me and Andrew, because I love doing that, and he is just always himself.

[1:14] Jess: There is a performance side of this.

[1:19] Jess: So we're doing this today because I love Parade.

[1:23] Jess: I don't think I told you this, LadyKnightTheBrave, but it is my favorite musical of all time.

[1:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: I think you mentioned that it's one of your favorites, and also I did listen to a little bit of your Parade episode today, just because I was curious.

[1:36] Jess: Uh yeah, you guys got off topic.

[1:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: I didn't listen to the whole thing.

[1:40] Jess: I we that that does tend to happen, especially in our early episodes.

[1:48] LadyKnightTheBrave: Or at least Andrew was.

[1:50] Jess: He was.

[1:51] Jess: I think it was like, I'm no, it's not.

[1:56] Jess: I am a hundred percent sure if we did that episode right now today, there would be a wholly different discussion.

[2:02] Jess: It's pretty incredible how over 200 episodes we've both changed as human beings.

[2:06] LadyKnightTheBrave: I know, I know.

[2:07] LadyKnightTheBrave: You've talked before about you know the early episodes, and how you cringe at them.

[2:11] Jess: So I was just curious what you guys were gonna get into, and uh I listened to a little bit of it.

[2:16] LadyKnightTheBrave: So I know you said it was your favorite musical.

[2:18] Jess: Yes.

[2:18] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, and I've never actually had a proper discussion about it with um someone else that was Jewish, except for my good friend Kevin Keller, who also shares it as his favorite musical.

[2:28] LadyKnightTheBrave: And anytime we talk, we literally just talk about Parade.

[2:31] LadyKnightTheBrave: Anytime we pop into each other, that is all we talk about.

[2:34] Jess: Wow.

[2:35] Jess: It is so rare to see someone else that not only knows about Parade, but also loves it so much.

[2:42] LadyKnightTheBrave: I think I had stumbled upon it like back in high school.

[2:46] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh I feel like I remember reading the wiki and like looking at clips or or listening to clips or something.

[2:54] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh probably around when Sweeney Todd was happening was big because of the movie.

[2:59] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, I feel like I found it then, and I was just like, whoa, that seems intense.

[3:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: And uh I didn't really get that much farther than that.

[3:08] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh yeah, and it's not a show that I've ever seen live.

[3:12] LadyKnightTheBrave: So yeah, today was pretty much the first time that I'd seen Parade.

[3:16] Jess: Yes, and it literally just stemmed.

[3:18] Jess: And LadyKnightTheBrave, this is honestly a first for my entire podcast.

[3:22] Jess: You have not guessed it on their podcast before, but we've been pretty good friends for a while now.

[3:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: It's been a minute.

[3:28] LadyKnightTheBrave: It was really funny because I I feel like the way it happened was just that I had started listening to your podcast in like some sort of a slump, and it was just like I I don't I like podcasts anyway, because I like noise, but I really liked because you guys covered a lot of musicals I don't know, or just like older ones, and you would play the songs, which was just great because then I could actually hear bits of the musical and go, Oh, maybe I should look this one up.

[3:52] LadyKnightTheBrave: I'm liking this music.

[3:53] Jess: That was very useful and I liked that.

[3:55] LadyKnightTheBrave: So I was listening to a lot of the podcasts, and then I made a tweet one day and I see Jesse McNally liked a tweet, and I was like, Wait a second.

[4:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: I just slid into your DMs like hello, um hi.

[4:10] LadyKnightTheBrave: Just like, oh, have you been following me this whole time?

[4:13] LadyKnightTheBrave: Crazy.

[4:15] LadyKnightTheBrave: I just started listening to your podcast.

[4:17] LadyKnightTheBrave: I have some notes.

[4:19] Jess: Which is great, but we've been communicating pretty non-stop, trying to arrange a date to actually do an episode, and don't worry, you will be on a proper episode soon.

[4:28] Jess: It's already it's in the books, it's happening.

[4:30] Jess: But I just love Parade so much, and it was just on my mind after your most recent video, and I was like, I wonder if you can end up talking about the Holocaust in this.

[4:40] LadyKnightTheBrave: I wanna kind of avoid that because that's not really what Parade is about this time.

[4:43] Jess: It's true, it's not the events of it pre-date.

[4:47] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, but there are some ties, some very rough ties, but not much.

[4:52] Jess: Um but I was just thinking about Parade, and I do that every summer.

[4:56] LadyKnightTheBrave: Every summer I do tend to revisit.

[4:59] Jess: Every summer uh on Confederate Memorial Day.

[5:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: In the old red hills of Georgia.

[5:08] Jess: So I was just curious, like I've never had a proper Jewish reading of it because I know Jason Robert Brown, um, the president of the Jason Robert Brown fan club does tend to talk about this a lot and have a lot of readings on it.

[5:20] LadyKnightTheBrave: So does Alfred Uri, but a lot of Gentiles are the ones that do a lot of the analysis of this musical.

[5:26] Jess: So I'm like, I just want to hear more opinions on how it's represented and how the culture is represented in it.

[5:32] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like the thing is, Leo, as presented in the show, is a very specific type.

[5:37] LadyKnightTheBrave: He's a type that exists.

[5:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like, I don't think it was bad representation.

[5:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, it's just very specific.

[5:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, one to the time and two to the region.

[5:46] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like, there's just a type of New York Jew that he's kind of being um in the show.

[5:51] Jess: There were little details that I really liked.

[5:53] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, in the 2009 production that you sent me, um, when he sang the Shema, he starts to do that little bob back and forth.

[6:02] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's a thing people do in synagogues.

[6:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's a thing people do when they pray.

[6:05] LadyKnightTheBrave: That was a little detail I really liked that.

[6:08] LadyKnightTheBrave: I also found it really funny, the bit about um Mary Fagan that he went like Fagin, and because my mind jumped to that immediately too.

[6:17] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like Fagin, the extremely anti-Semitic stereotype from Oliver Twist.

[6:22] Jess: And then he goes, Oh, it wasn't phalanx.

[6:25] LadyKnightTheBrave: Okay.

[6:25] LadyKnightTheBrave: And I was like, that's that's cute.

[6:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: That made me laugh.

[6:28] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um I think that's like the a lot of people describe Parade as very dour, but I think I think there's a good amount of comedy in it where it feels like an honest lived-in world and the characters feel real.

[6:45] Jess: Um, when she comes to visit him on the prison farm, and he's like, Have you bribed that guard yet?

[6:50] LadyKnightTheBrave: And she's like, Not yet.

[6:52] Jess: I was like, Oh, that's 10 out of 10.

[6:55] LadyKnightTheBrave: I honestly, because the subject matter was so heavy, I was not laughing a lot, but like I appreciated some of the jokes, I guess.

[7:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: I don't know.

[7:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: I wouldn't even call them jokes, I'd just call them character moments.

[7:08] Jess: I mean, it's honestly it's the style of delivery was reminding me of like Borscht Belt comedians.

[7:14] Jess: Like there's just uh kind of a uh kind of a uh a way that some of those lines are delivered that is very like this is how Jewish comedians say funny things.

[7:25] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um not for bad or good, just kind of that was what I noticed.

[7:31] Jess: Yeah.

[7:31] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um I I can see that too, and there's been so many different ways people played it.

[7:35] LadyKnightTheBrave: Some people played it more sincerely.

[7:37] LadyKnightTheBrave: Laura Badante tended to play it more comedy because that's what her strength is.

[7:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, but there's just moments where I'm just like that.

[7:47] LadyKnightTheBrave: She's like, it's all over the Bible.

[7:48] LadyKnightTheBrave: Come on.

[7:49] Jess: That was cute.

[7:50] Jess: I thought it was interesting, honestly, that it all leads to like their I guess marriage nuptials finally, like in the prison.

[7:59] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like that, at least, at least that's the way it looks in the 2009 production.

[8:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like they literally lie down in bed, and I was like, oh wow, all right.

[8:07] LadyKnightTheBrave: I mean, I don't know that I needed that.

[8:09] LadyKnightTheBrave: I would have I would have loved a nice hug, but like I guess, I guess we set it up in act one, they gotta fuck.

[9:08] ♪ Musical number: "All the Wasted Time" — performed by LadyKnightTheBrave ♪

[9:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: All the wasted time is probably one of my favorite like Broadway songs of all time.

[9:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: And it gives me the same feels as Do You Love Me from Fiddler on the Roof of two people that only realize they are truly in love with one another after years of marriage, which is such a specific thing, and I I love it, and both of them give me the same kind of feelings.

[9:27] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like just the beginning twinkle of All the Wasted Time gets me kind of choked up.

[9:32] LadyKnightTheBrave: I really liked the one that he sings when she is like uncovering everything.

[9:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: I forget what it's called, but I think this is not over yet.

[9:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, I really liked that one.

[9:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um I it you know what's funny is I really loved the wife uh Lucille, but I also felt like there was a step missing for her development because she just never really questions her husband, like she kind of does once, but mostly she's just so loyal, and even when he's being kind of a jackass, she's still being very loving and bringing him meals, and I was like, I would have loved a moment, maybe in act one, where she had a song to just be like, I am having some complicated feelings about what they're saying about my husband.

[10:17] LadyKnightTheBrave: Like I think in theory, that's supposed to be you don't know this man.

[10:21] Jess: But that's still her being loyal to the end, like she's still just being I think the question at the end where it's like you're saying all these things, but you're not saying he's innocent, and then she doesn't answer.

[10:32] LadyKnightTheBrave: I feel like that is.

[10:37] LadyKnightTheBrave: The thing I found most interesting about her is that she's also Jewish, but she's a southern Jew, and they don't harp on that a lot because they're very coding Leo as like you know, New York Yankee Jew, but she's also Jewish, and so like there is a level of fear, I think for her too in every interaction that I'm just like, I don't know, I would have gotten out of there too.

[10:58] LadyKnightTheBrave: I would have left.

[11:00] LadyKnightTheBrave: But I don't think she leaves in the end.

[11:02] LadyKnightTheBrave: I think she's like, no, this is my home.

[11:04] Jess: I mean, it believes that specific interaction.

[11:06] LadyKnightTheBrave: Gotcha.

[11:06] LadyKnightTheBrave: She does, she does, and it's very interesting because this is a thing that I've seen across a lot of minorities where they they want to highlight, like, I'm not this.

[11:14] LadyKnightTheBrave: I'm like, I have a friend who's uh like I don't know, half quarter Japanese, whatever, but she she'll say, like, she's you know, an American Japanese person, like she'll foreground that.

[11:25] LadyKnightTheBrave: And so for her to just be like, I'm a Georgia girl, I was like, huh, that's interesting.

[11:30] LadyKnightTheBrave: I think she's an interesting character.

[11:32] LadyKnightTheBrave: I just feel like there's a step missing in her development that I would have loved.

[11:36] Jess: I agree.

[11:37] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, I I I completely agree.

[11:39] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, so fun fact what development was there, was not originally there.

[11:42] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um that's not surprising.

[11:44] LadyKnightTheBrave: In the place of Do It Alone Leo, which I think is one of the more effective songs.

[11:49] Jess: Yeah, no, that sounds great.

[11:50] LadyKnightTheBrave: There it just used to be a Leo moment where he just sings about having something to say and writing about his own innocence.

[11:56] LadyKnightTheBrave: That was what it was originally there. And I'm like, it doesn't work as well. I'll play a little clip of it here. Um, yeah, it doesn't work that well, in my opinion. You needed the tagline for this show when it hit Broadway was a true story, a love story. And I think that is what really does tend to work here. Um, I have a lot of trouble with true crime in most media. I it's something I just struggle with. Um, I think this is the only way you could do a true crime musical effectively. Honestly, I think the one thing in the show that I think is a real fuck up isn't anything involving the Jewish rep. I think the fact that they actually implicate that one guy, Jimmy, the Chang guy. Yeah, I think the fact that they because the part of the show that I thought was really effective is that not only are Jewish people a victim under white supremacy, but everybody's under a victim under white supremacy, and marginalized groups can harm each other trying to survive under white supremacy.

And I thought that was really, really well established. And like the way the way the maid ends up being made to, you know, falsely whatever in the trial. And there's that whole number, the rumbling and the rolling number where the two wanna do your milk goddamn good. I can tell you this as a matter of fact that the local hotels wouldn't be so pat if a little black girl had gotten attacked. Gone, gone, gone, come! They're coming, they're coming now, yes or real, cause a white man gonna get hungry. There's a black man swinging in Never V tree, but they don't never pay attention. They'll never say wow, wow, but if a Yankee boy. But it is it is tempting to fall into that sort of trauma Olympics mindset, which is what they're doing in that song of being like, oh, now they care because a white man's gonna get hung.

And it's like that's a valid response to have in that time period. And it's just it's really interesting to see that depicted. And the fact that they then make a black man be the villain of the piece and very clearly say this man raped that little girl, uh, I think it's a huge mistake. I also think it goes to show the sidestepping of a certain element of the Leo Frank case. Do you find it odd that Leo Frank's lawyer doesn't say anything?

[14:24] Jess: Oh, you mentioned something about this. Apparently, that is in the in the other episode, you said his lawyer was hella racist.

[14:28] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, well, that was their defense. Like, how can you trust someone like that over our word? It was like there was a lot of slurs being thrown around in that court case. Not as much in the more recent productions. There in on the Broadway one, that it's like sung so many times. Like, and I as a story written by two um white Jewish men, um, it's a little it's a little it's a little distracting, and I think they made the right call by removing it. Yeah, according to Jason Robert Brown, a lot of choices were um kind of forced on them by their director Hal Prince. Do you know anything about Hal Prince?

[15:10] Jess: He's the one who said it's about cats.

[15:12] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes, they did do that. Um here he's like, it's about the tree. We really need to focus on the tree. Listen, I love the tree imagery that you showed me. I think that's stunning. Um, I don't think that should be all there is, but I do think on its own, that is very beautiful. Um, he really wanted to focus on the town, which is why a lot more of the reporters got big numbers and such. And when um Jason Robert Brown and Alfred Urey went to revive it for the UK production and the subsequent concert production, they cut the score down quite a bit, focused it solely on Leo and Lucille, and removed a lot of slurs. I mean, that's yeah, that's for the best. To the benefit of the show. And I'm very curious. Have you read that they're doing a new revival of this later this year, starring Ben Platt as Leo Frank?

[16:02] Jess: No, no!

[16:05] LadyKnightTheBrave: Not Ben Platt.

[16:07] Jess: No!

[16:10] LadyKnightTheBrave: To be frank. No, no pun intended. Um, it does lean to every one of Ben Platt's strength this role. I think he'll do fine. He is the right age for it. He looks like he looks more like Leo Frank than Jeremy Jordan does. I I he's just a he's such a meme at this point. I'm worried that he's going to distract from the piece.

[16:33] Jess: I think I think he might do better than we think. I I and I am known for memeing on Dear Evan Hansen. I am the king of memeing on Dear Evan Hansen. Like I he is when when he's on stage, he is fine.

[16:47] LadyKnightTheBrave: I agree. Don't film him, apparently. Or maybe just I don't know. I I do wonder how he was directed, because he was normal in the pitch perfect movies. Um or relatively normal. His character's quite odd, but you know. Um yeah, I don't know. I mixed feelings, I'll say. I I think he's a very nice singer. He'll sing it great. He'll sing it beautifully. That I have no doubt. Act it well too. Like I think he will, I don't think he's gonna lean into the tears as much here. It's not a very tearful role. Um maybe once during it's hard to speak my mind during the closing statement. The problem I have with this production from what I read is they're leading into the true crime aspect by using pictures of the actual trial and really leaning into that, and I'm just not a fan of the street. If they show a picture of the lynching, I'll be pissed.

[17:33] Jess: Yeah. It's just that that would be three steps too far.

[17:36] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, no, no. I'm like the pictures of the whatever, fine. I get it. And honestly, considering recent um uh questionable court trials, I definitely thought of that once or twice while watching this show. Um so I mean, like, it definitely it's definitely a good reminder about why uh we should take news media out of court cases. Uh yeah, this was a sensationalist trial, and the entire it's the entire like city had their minds made up before the jewelry even came. The jury only like delegated for four hours before they decided he should die, which is terrifying. Um, but the reason why I have faith in this production, do you know who Michael Arden is?

[18:19] Jess: Yes.

[18:20] LadyKnightTheBrave: He's directing it. He also directed the Spring Awakening Deaf West production.

[18:23] Jess: Yeah, and he was hunchback in the 2015 uh Jolla.

[18:28] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, no, I love Michael Arden. Although I will say his his speaking voice in the hunchback show, where it feels like he was trying to play death by doing this really weird, like voice was weird.

[18:40] Jess: It was weird.

[18:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: It's really weird. His speaking voice in that show is weird, and I really like listening to the album, and then I'll play it for friends, and I'll be like, hang on, it'll get good in a minute. I swear. But I do like Michael Arden. Um, I will be very interested in that production. And I don't think I brought this up in our original episode, but Alfred Uri, who is also the writer of the book and was the big one. Um, he is related to the one that originally owned the pencil. I think he it was his great uncle who owned the pencil factory where Leo Frank worked and the murder happened.

[19:12] Jess: Yeah, that's what it said on the wiki.

[19:13] LadyKnightTheBrave: So yeah. That's crazy. Um Yuri was brought in by Hal Prince to really discover this. Uh originally, Hal Prince went to Steven Sondheim to do that on the wiki too. The score, and Sondheim was just doing passion, and he was like, I I'm just it's it's too depressing. I can't handle this.

[19:31] Jess: Sondheim said it was too depressing.

[19:34] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's funny. I mean, the passion was pretty intense situation for him. Have you watched Passion before?

[19:40] Jess: Uh I remember your episode on it, but I don't remember the plot.

[19:45] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, ugly girl falls in love with attractive guy, shenanigans happened. It's Andrew Lloyd Weber through the guise of Sondheim, and it's one of my favorite Sondheim musicals. I think it's very good. Um, but it is very heavy. Um so I kind of get why you sidestepped this. Did I do the wiki explain how Jason Robert Brown got involved with this?

[20:05] Jess: Umbody's daughter liked him for some reason.

[20:09] LadyKnightTheBrave: Hal Prince's daughter directed uh what is it, Songs for a New World, which was his song cycle. He was, I think he was just barely 22, 23 or at the time, and he's like, oh no, he's really, really good. Come on in. And he Jason Robert Brown wrote wrote one song as his audition, and that song was the old Red Hills of Home. Wow. And Alfred Yuri cried immediately as soon as hearing it. It's so interesting because I I appreciate that the 2009 production was just not fucking around with their imagery. Like they were very clear about which so interesting in 2009. You know, that was a different time when you think about what was what was going on then. I mean, we were just into the Obama years. We thought we were safe.

Um, but they were being very pointed about their imagery. When they put on the hoods, I I gasped. Um, like I could tell they were handing out the hoods. I could tell that's what was happening, and then they put them on, and I and I all and yeah. Um, and like all the use of the Confederate flag imagery, like they were being very, very pointed about what was being critiqued, which I liked, and I think honestly, the strongest thing that a new production would do would be to be even more pointed rather than show old, you know, news reels or whatever the hell, show January 6th footage, just show pictures of January 6th during old Hills of Georgia.

[21:34] Jess: Well, do you know what's happened in our most recent production of Assassins?

[21:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: No.

[21:39] Jess: So the the Assassins ends with it's about all the assassins of presidents, right?

[21:39] LadyKnightTheBrave: Right, right, right, right, right. Yes, yes.

[21:47] Jess: Okay, it ended with January 6th footage.

[21:50] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's smart. Like af after they did the but I think that because they opened the show before COVID and then they had to reopen post-COVID, so it it was a post-COVID edition because they had already started doing previews before. So I think like if you're coming back to a new world, you gotta adjust, and I completely agree.

[22:07] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, I just I really hope they don't show the photo of the actual lynching that would be.

[22:12] Jess: I know. The thing is, you can't even Google Leo Frank just for information without seeing that lynching photo as like the first thing. Listen, I've looked at a lot of fucked up images recently. I'd be fine, but there are a lot of people who are sensitive to that sort of thing, and it is it I I try to be careful in my own shit about showing real people's dead bodies because I think that is unkind to the dead.

[22:35] LadyKnightTheBrave: Very much so. Um, so I would hope they don't do that, but um, yeah, I don't know. I like honestly, there wasn't a lot of Jewish stuff in the show, really. It was just a lot more of like this is what anti-Semitism looks like. Which, which like, boy, does it um there is that side of it, like you brought up like the people of color kind of being used as pawns in this overall story, which ain't a great look.

[23:04] Jess: Yeah, no. Well, fighting again, fighting white supremacy is a team sport. We weren't there yet, but you know, intersectionality is a new fun craze. We gotta get on board that. Uh and we weren't there in 1913 or whatever. Culturally. It's yeah, no, I I just it's interesting because yeah, it's there's not a lot about Judaism in it. Really, I I did think it was very powerful. I said this to you already, but I'll just for listeners. Uh the second or last song is called Shema. Uh Shema is like a major prayer that is just said a lot. Uh Shema literally means like listen or hear. Uh, and he just he just says the Shema.

[23:46] LadyKnightTheBrave: I mean, not the whole thing, but he says like a line or two of it, and it was really good. I liked that bit. I thought that was really well done. How did you feel about it being the same melody as the old relative Red Hills at home? The Georgians' connection to their beliefs.

[24:22] Jess: It's interesting because I feel like it's one of those things that you could read a lot of different things into it. Like, cause at the beginning of the show, he is constantly separating himself from his wife and from all the southernness. And then he talks about like he's a farm boy now. And it feels like he's accepting his own sort of being a part of the South now in the worst way, unfortunately. I don't know. I feel like it could be read a lot of different ways about like the South co-opting his legacy. There's a lot of different readings I feel like you could put into that. Just him singing it to the tune of the Red Hills of Georgia song. I also really like the choice that at least in the 2009 one, Lucille doesn't sing during the finale.

Like when they're all singing, she's just standing there on the stage not saying anything, and it's really upsetting. You want her to sing just to like break the tension, but she doesn't. And I was like, that's a really good choice. It's upsetting me, but it's good.

[25:23] LadyKnightTheBrave: I agree. There's a lot of things that are just upsetting but good. I think that might be an alternate title to this musical. Would you believe that the show flopped when it first premiered on Broadway?

[25:36] Jess: I would believe that very much, yes, I would. People don't love those kinds of stories. They just want their bluesicles taken away from them. They just don't honestly, because I think the thing that's difficult about the show is the complexity of it in that there aren't a lot of good people. Like Leo is shown to be a pretty flawed person, not a rapist, but a flawed person, and he's not particularly nice, you know, to his wife for like the whole first act. He's kind of a piece of shit, and you know, like I guess his wife might be the one nice person in the show, but like it's just there's not a lot of people to root for, and the person who is the victim of the piece is a complicated, flawed person, and that's not something that people love to engage with. They like, you know, easy martyrs.

[26:26] LadyKnightTheBrave: I agree, but also the show's one of the most complicated things I think this show deals with on a lot of its portrayal is they don't have any mustache twirling villains in the same way. Like I think I said this thought the chain gang guy might be that.

[26:41] Jess: Yeah, yes. In the original production I would say it was definitely that. In more recent productions, I think Josh Henry in the concert version played him as if he was innocent. That was a sincere choice I felt in that performance. I don't know. I feel like the lyrics just being what they are, where he's literally singing about taking a little girl in that song, that second song.

[27:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah. And then and then he just honestly, the choice that he made that I thought was really interesting, almost funny but upsetting. Just like I didn't know what to make of it, was that he keeps stopping at the microphones on his way off stage to go like, yeah, and then he stops the next one, he goes, yeah, and then it gets like kind of shepherded off the stage. And I was like, that's I don't know what to make of that.

[27:25] Jess: But um, I don't know. I feel like the lyrics are the lyrics, and it's hard to just not be like, wow, that's uh there's a lot of when I was doing research for this originally. There was an entire I think this website's been taken down. There was an entire website dedicating to proving that Leo Frank was guilty the entire time and that it's really against this and has an entire section dedicated to like Jason Robert Brown and Alfred Uri are just the Hollywood elite trying to rewrite history to their like it's a very anti-Semitic website, like a horrifically terrible website. The thing is, I think the thing the show should have done is just not implicated anybody. I think it doesn't matter who did it, it. It's just that a miscarriage of justice still took place. I think the writers believe that they did that, which is the almost the worst part.

[28:19] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, let's talk about the songs for a minute.

[28:22] Jess: Sure. Was there anyone that really stuck with you? Like one that's like, oh, that's that that struck me.

[28:29] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, I liked the It's Not Over Yet song.

[28:32] Jess: Yes.

[28:33] LadyKnightTheBrave: I also yeah. That one was really great because that like that's like the moment where like their relationships hit like a really cool turning point, and it's fun to see that he's like, yeah, Lucille and me, and my wife is cool, and like that's a that's just a I'm suddenly a wife guy.

[28:52] Jess: Yeah, he's become a wife guy, and it's wholesome. I like that. Um, I actually thought that a really interesting number was the one where the little girls are singing at the trial, and then um I don't remember the name of it, but the but the one where like a fantasy version of Leo just starts letching it up on stage. And honestly, I hate to say this. That was when Jeremy Jordan was probably at his best in the show. That's where he's more comfortable.

[29:19] LadyKnightTheBrave: So let's think about that scene first. It's the come up to my office and the factory girls, where the girls have been coached into saying this specific thing and they're all singing it in a round, which is a brilliant way to show someone being coached. I there's never been like a proper courtroom musical outside of this, but that was such a brilliant musical idea, effectively executed.

[29:22] ♪ Musical number: "Come Up to My Office" — performed by LadyKnightTheBrave ♪

[30:26] Jess: And she looks and don't wait. Well, and just because they're saying the same thing, even without it being in the round, it's the they're saying the same thing, and you're just like, oh, oh. Um, but yeah, and then and then this like fantasy version of Leo acts out what they're describing, where uh he's just hitting on each of the girls, and honestly, it's the moment where yeah, I thought Jeremy Jordan was the most convincing, and the 2009 guy was the most cartoonish.

[31:01] LadyKnightTheBrave: Well, I think that's a part of me is I love Tierra Knight. I think he's a great actor. Um, I think it's really effective when you have someone that's really settled into that Leo role where they're very uncomfortable, and then you just get to see what it looks like when they're not that person, which is why I think it works when he goes cartoony.

[31:19] Jess: It's Tier Knight goes cartoon. Also, um, there was a long applause after one of the songs in the concert. I think it was the mom's song during that's rough.

[31:42] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah. I was like, I don't like how long you're applauding after she's like Jew. I was like, oh god, stop applauding.

[31:50] Jess: There was this I it might not have been that one. I don't remember. I just remember the. No, no, no. I just remembered because they didn't applaud after that one because obviously it was after that's what he said, because it's um uh uh Josh Henry and he just did a good job, but I shouldn't quite know how to react to that one.

[32:04] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh maybe. I I just remember there was a long applause somewhere that I was like, oh don't applaud that. Uh um the sing that guy was a great singer, he was.

[32:15] Jess: Yes. Uh I just yeah, the the mom's number, the where she's singing about her daughter. My daughter will forgive me. Uh I thought that was one of the better moments in the concert because she really uh the the lady in the 2009 one so quiet, I would have missed it. Um and she's just like she's just like chew. And then the two the the concert lady, she's chew. I again I I almost fucking jump scared me. Like it does the job, it's the same effect of the end of if you could see her from Cabaret.

[32:48] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's exactly what I thought of you.

[32:50] Jess: Oh, it's I I thought of that exact same thing. Yes. The first time I saw Cabaret, I I had a very similar reaction of like, huh? Um, and it's really funny. I recently watched Cabaret with some friends.

[33:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh oh, that that's a rough movie night.

[33:06] Jess: I uh uh my friend, I'm friends with David J. Bowley, and they were making uh that video about cabaret, which if you haven't seen it, you should. Um, and uh another a mutual friend of ours, Aaron Ok, hadn't seen Cabaret, so just like three of us watched it. I hadn't seen it in a while. And uh, and then a uh fourth friend. So yeah, there was just a bunch of us on Discord watching cabaret, and it was really funny because Aaronok and and uh my other friend Molly hadn't seen Cabaret before. So that number's happening, and I know what's coming, and David knows what's coming, and I'm the only Jew in the room. And uh it dead silence, complete silence, and finally I just was like but up and up just to rank the tension. They were like, I knew something racist was gonna happen. I didn't know it was gonna be that.

[33:55] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um yeah, I don't know. It's it's very effective. I thought I thought that was very well done. Um because I I um maybe I'm gonna say something here, and maybe you'll disagree with me. I I think this would actually be one of the few musicals that would translate fairly well to film.

[34:13] Jess: I was thinking about that, and I don't know. It really depends on how you shoot it. Because I think you could fuck it up really easily.

[34:20] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh, I agree there. Um, I know Spielberg to the Schindler's list stuff that you brought up in that incredible video you made.

[34:29] Jess: Thanks. Um, yeah, uh, but I do think he might be able to kind of he even sensationalist for this.

[34:40] LadyKnightTheBrave: I I do agree because he's he's a kind of a sensationalist filmmaker, and that works for certain projects. I think Schindler's List has its place. I'll just say that.

[34:47] Jess: It's it's not a bad movie. I just think it's not the only one you should watch.

[34:51] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh no, no, better. I I I agree, but I think that this m my problem with Schindler's List, and um here we go, is that I think Spielberg uh by his nature is an entertainer at heart, and he just can't turn that brain off. Where part most of that movie just looks like Indiana Jones, and there's like weirdly out-of-place jokes about like Schindler wanting the hot secretary and then the only good one is the quote unquote ugly one. Like those those are the things that I'm like, this is not the movie for that Spielberg.

[35:23] Jess: I honestly barely remember that stuff. The stuff that sticks with me mostly is just the very gratuitous violence. There's a lot of it. It's vague it's intended to shock. And uh I guess that has a place if you need to be shocked, but most Jewish people don't.

[35:49] Jess: Remember the gun jam scene in Schindler's List?

[35:52] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes, I do.

[35:53] Jess: That is one of the most like idiotic scenes in a film. Spielberg has a really weird dark sense of humor, and it shows up. It works better in Saving Private Ryan.

[36:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes.

[36:04] Jess: There is a beat in Saving Private Ryan on the beaches scene when a guy gets shot in the helmet and he is surprised that he didn't die, and he takes off his helmet to like look at it, and then he gets shot in the head. It's that beat, but for longer.

[36:18] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes.

[36:19] Jess: Now, all those types of things that I think bring down Schindler's List, I think would have really heightened Parade. I think it would work really well for this because it's very theatrical and he is very theatrical.

[36:30] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah.

[36:31] Jess: So like I think he and also he has a good impulse for when to keep it wide, which I think there are certain scenes like courtroom scenes where you would want to film it a bit like it is on stage and just kind of not be doing like Chicago style.

[36:46] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh, Chicago's a show with courtroom stuff.

[36:48] Jess: Hey.

[36:48] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh, yeah, but I think that would not translate in the same way.

[36:53] Jess: No, no, I just thought of it. You said you couldn't think of other courtroom musicals.

[36:57] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh, Chicago.

[36:58] Jess: Um, but yeah, no, like it shouldn't look like Chicago.

[37:03] LadyKnightTheBrave: I would, it would, that would be bad.

[37:05] Jess: That would be very bad if they filmed Parade like Chicago.

[37:07] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes, um, yeah.

[37:09] Jess: Um, honestly, if Spielberg only does one other musical outside of West Side Story, and West Side Story might be like the only use of Spielberg I've enjoyed in the last 10 years, it should be Parade.

[37:23] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh, are you a big Ready Player One defender?

[37:26] Jess: Oh no, no, no, no. I'm trying to think. I'm like it can't, it can't be all bad. I feel like there's a good one was Bridge of Spies, I think.

[37:33] LadyKnightTheBrave: That was the last one I enjoyed.

[37:35] Jess: Um, I didn't like Bridge of Spies that much.

[37:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: I mean, that was just me getting credit. I didn't like the BFG.

[37:41] Jess: Oh, I did like the BFG. I thought that was fun.

[37:44] LadyKnightTheBrave: It was so weird.

[37:46] Jess: It is very weird, I will give you that. Um, I enjoyed that. I thought it was cute.

[37:49] LadyKnightTheBrave: Oh my gosh, like why are, what else has he done in the last 10 years?

[37:53] Jess: I still stand by my statement no matter what. Um, The Post.

[37:57] LadyKnightTheBrave: No.

[37:57] Jess: Did he say The BFG? What was that? Did you do Catch Me If You Can? Was that him?

[38:01] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes, he did.

[38:02] Jess: That was in 2002, though. That was like over 20 years ago.

[38:06] LadyKnightTheBrave: 20 years ago this year.

[38:07] Jess: So 10 years, last 10 years. Why would you say that?

[38:11] LadyKnightTheBrave: I feel like Munich is good. I feel like it's, I have a feeling that one is, Munich is complicated.

[38:17] Jess: Yeah, I know, and it's made by a Jew. So I would be very interested to hear your opinion on Munich.

[38:23] LadyKnightTheBrave: Honestly, I would love to just start a film podcast to be able to talk about things like this. But Munich A might have the worst sex scene ever put to film.

[38:33] Jess: Okay, that's, um, you'll know it when you see it.

[38:38] LadyKnightTheBrave: I mean, I sure will. It's like pornography, you're not when you see it. I mean, listen, I don't like most sex scenes. I've talked about being ace before, like they don't do anything for me. There's still a million things that you and I can do. It's, I believe it, the things I see in you, it means a man who isn't guilty doesn't have to walk the plank. It means the gallows still are vacant and we've got my wife to thank. It means you shouldn't underestimate. Why don't you give a cheese rating for Parade just to wrap this all up? What's your overall thoughts on Parade and your cheese rating? It's official, you're on the show, you've gotta give one.

[38:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: I know, I'm trying to think of like a kosher brand of cheese. I don't know, it's kosher mozzarella.

[38:43] Jess: Hell yeah, um, that's incredible and you liked Parade, I'm gonna assume that.

[38:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, no, I did. I did. I don't know that I'd revisit it again, but I did like it. I will say it's one of those shows that'll creep up on you. Like if a song from it comes up on your shuffle, that usually gets me in and I'm like, well now I gotta start that album from the start. I like, granted, I often, songs have to kind of, I have to listen to songs a lot before they kind of stick with me sometimes.

[40:24] Jess: That's, and that was kind of the case with this. Like I'm not walking away really remembering the tune of most of the songs. I remember they were nice. Um, but yeah, so like I don't know that these would go on my shuffle. I'm too busy listening to RRR over and over again.

[40:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's fair.

[40:41] Jess: I feel like by the end of the year we have to cover that on the show. I feel like that's like a perfect...

[40:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: Do it.

[40:49] Jess: Talk about when a man punches a tiger. I feel like it's like the perfect goofy cheesy musical.

[40:55] LadyKnightTheBrave: That's also making me so happy. Also, I've been told by people from India it's not technically a musical, but also the way it's been explained to me is that it's not a musical except when it is. Because it's three hours long and 30 genres packed into one movie.

[41:11] Jess: So it isn't technically a musical, but sometimes it does stop to be a musical.

[41:17] LadyKnightTheBrave: I want to see it, but also I don't have three hours to kill at this given moment in my life.

[41:23] Jess: Find three hours.

[41:25] LadyKnightTheBrave: I really want to. Also, just to know that when you're watching it on Netflix, it's, um, the movie is actually originally in Telugu, but it is on Netflix only available dubbed in Hindi.

[41:37] Jess: So you will be...

[41:39] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh-huh.

[41:39] Jess: So you'll be reading subtitles and they will be dubbed.

[41:43] LadyKnightTheBrave: Can I purchase the movie?

[41:46] Jess: Not yet. I've been looking for it to be available on Blu-ray, but it has been in theaters a little bit. I did see it in theaters twice. I got to see it in Telugu in theaters. It was great.

[42:02] LadyKnightTheBrave: And it was, yeah, a lot of films from India have intermissions because they're long. Um, so when the movie just randomly comes to this wild screen at about 90 minutes, and then the movie just starts again, that was the intermission. They don't include the where it says interval, so it just goes back to the movie on Netflix, which is a little wild, but they didn't know.

[42:23] Jess: Come on, I want to pee at home too.

[42:26] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, but they've said interval with three Rs.

[42:29] Jess: Oh, I love them.

[42:36] LadyKnightTheBrave: Interval.

[42:36] Jess: Yeah, I literally was walking to the bathroom going, "Ha, interval."

[42:41] LadyKnightTheBrave: Uh, yeah, that was great. So, um, you should watch that. Find three hours, it will make you happy after listening to Parade.

[42:50] Jess: Parade makes me happy, you know, like they're kind of sad happy.

[42:53] LadyKnightTheBrave: How, where is the joy?

[42:56] Jess: All I see is trauma.

[42:58] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yeah, joy is the catharsis, to be honest. Like sometimes you just know you need, sometimes you know you just need to feel something and get an emotion out, and like, uh, that's the kind of feeling I have after I finish listening to Parade.

[43:12] Jess: All right, okay, hey, we all got this. LadyKnightTheBrave, why don't you promote your incredible content for the world to find?

[43:18] LadyKnightTheBrave: Um, I have a YouTube channel where I talk about film theory and feelings, and um, my most recent video is being fucked over by Lionsgate. Um, but if you live in America, you can watch it, and if you don't live in America, download a VPN and send your location to America. People have been commenting that they're doing that, and I'm like, good, do it. I'm so mad. I'm so mad. I couldn't edit it anymore because it was making me sad. So I just needed to get it done. And um, uh, yeah, or you can watch it on Nebula, it is available info on Nebula. It's just behind a paywall, which is frustrating with this subject matter. Um, but I do videos about film theory and the and feelings, and not all of them are sad.

[44:03] Jess: Some of them are not sad.

[44:05] LadyKnightTheBrave: Rise of the Guardians video, one of the best videos on the internet.

[44:09] Jess: Oh, thank you. I'm, I want to do something really, really dumb next. I honestly thought about like if RRR was available on Blu-ray, I would think about that. But like, I don't know, I'm like maybe a retrospective of the Fast and Furious movies. Maybe I'll talk about Ever After. Like, I'm just like, I need to do something stupid.

[44:27] Jess: Honestly, an Ever After video. I think it's about, it's time that we need something like that.

[44:32] LadyKnightTheBrave: There's no behind the scenes on that movie. None, nothing. I've bought the Blu-ray, it is empty. And like I found like three articles where like Drew Barrymore was like, "Oh, yeah, I remember that movie," and like talked a little bit about her costumes or something. Like, just very, very little.

[44:50] Jess: I legit might try to like email people from that movie and be like, "Can you tell me about Ever After?"

[44:56] LadyKnightTheBrave: Please tell me anything about this movie.

[44:58] Jess: Just tell me how this movie exists, please.

[45:00] LadyKnightTheBrave: Please, please tell me about it. Douglas, what's his face? He played the prince, he's not doing a lot.

[45:06] Jess: Douglas Walker.

[45:07] LadyKnightTheBrave: No, email him.

[45:08] Jess: No, your fixation with Doug Walker.

[45:14] LadyKnightTheBrave: You need therapy.

[45:16] Jess: Yeah, yeah.

[45:17] LadyKnightTheBrave: I think the meme has died now.

[45:18] Jess: Um, we got an angry review on our iTunes about it.

[45:22] LadyKnightTheBrave: So I think we have to officially end the meme.

[45:25] Jess: Just know that you, if you need to do a Mickey Mouse impression, it's just your Doug Walker voice.

[45:30] LadyKnightTheBrave: It's a very good Mickey Mouse.

[45:32] Jess: It sounds like Mickey Mouse.

[45:34] LadyKnightTheBrave: I don't disagree, but I always gives Andrew like such a lightness. Any time I bring him up, that it brought me such joy, but I meme too close to the sun, I've discovered.

[45:47] Jess: No, you girl boss too hard.

[45:49] LadyKnightTheBrave: I girl boss too hard and Doug Walker too far.

[45:52] Jess: No. This was such a joy. Thank you so much for your time today. I hope you had fun. I can't wait till you come back on and we talk about the super special one. We got this one. We've been playing this one for a while, guys.

[46:05] LadyKnightTheBrave: I'm excited to talk about it.

[46:07] Jess: Get Ooky Spooky.

[46:10] LadyKnightTheBrave: Yes.

[46:11] Jess: Yes. All right, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.